Re: ten new cameras
Hi, Keith wrote: a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** Having been educated on the cusp of metrication in the UK, I am unfamiliar with these measurements. Are they the same as a midge's pube? mike
Re: ten new cameras
yep, about as long as a bees d**k! :):):) Cheers Shaun mike wilson wrote: Hi, Keith wrote: a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** Having been educated on the cusp of metrication in the UK, I am unfamiliar with these measurements. Are they the same as a midge's pube? mike . -- Shaun Canning Cultural Heritage Services High Street, Broadford, Victoria, 3658. www.heritageservices.com.au/ Phone: 0414-967644 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: ten new cameras
Except for the grin factor, yes. keith mike wilson wrote: Hi, Keith wrote: a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** Having been educated on the cusp of metrication in the UK, I am unfamiliar with these measurements. Are they the same as a midge's pube? mike
Re: ten new cameras
Hi, Keith wrote: Except for the grin factor, yes. keith mike wilson wrote: Hi, Keith wrote: a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** Having been educated on the cusp of metrication in the UK, I am unfamiliar with these measurements. Are they the same as a midge's pube? Hmmm. Think I'll have to take this up with Cotty, who apparently measures diameters in something called Pentax 67 outer bayonets. mike (bit of a 110 myself)
RE: ten new cameras
Bruce, Much as I often disagree with you, and the way you go about posting here, I fully understand and largely agree with your points in this case. I must apologise for the way that people have landed on you and been (IMO) overly pedantic about the way you phrased your point. I think we should all recognise that engineering and optical theory are also subject to marketing, manufacturing and cost constraints. Just because something should work perfectly in theory does not mean that it gets implemented in the perfect manner as dictated by the ideal design. Compromises are made, QA problems happen, things fail and less perfect designs/materials are often used to meet costs. I would think that no lens ever made is 100% perfectly aligned at all times to the gazillionth degree, and however small the odds are that a noticeable misalignment is made - and however small that misalignment is, the more complex the design, manufacture and usage the greater the odds become. This is reality as opposed to theory. My first reaction to seeing the design was: How long before it breaks? I still feel the same... -Original Message- From: Bruce Rubenstein [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 February 2003 20:36 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: ten new cameras My original comment: :If you look at the cut-away, you would see that the camera is flat only with the lens stored. To make it pack flat the center element group is moved out of the light path so the front and rear groups can be brought closer together. I wonder what sort of alignment can be maintained after that camera is opened and closed 1,000 times. I meant optical alignment. Sorry for any confusion, but I couldn't imagine it not working mechanically for many thousands of cycles. It's still a whizzy feature and does nothing to help functional performance. The folks responsible for the space shuttle were also supposed to be the best in the business also. I also know that you and Pal fly into a blind rage when anyone says anything negative about Pentax. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/04/03 1:59 PM, Bruce Rubenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't how many times you can get the mechanism to work, it's the alignment of the lens elements. Your initial question was indeed boiled down to the cycle. I am sure the alignment is fine and the concern, if any, would be about the mechanical cycle. But as a mechanical engineer, 100,000 cycle sounds more intelligent than 1,000 cycles which could be reached in a matter of weeks, particularly during the initial stage when owners tend to play with it. And I am sure that they designed the positioning mechanism fine, have cycle tested and determined that it can take the rigour of consumers' abuse. The rest of your argument is your speculation based on your level of knowledge. I trust Pentax rather than you. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
...and then you slide a group of elements in and out from the side a few thousand times using a mechanism that can't cost more than a few bucks, and tell me how many red-headed flea's fine curly hairs it shifted from the time it rolled off the line. Did you even look at the diagram of what's going on inside that lens assembly every time you turn the thing on and off? You're arguing a _supposition_. Lordy, you would never have made it three months into a college debating class. This would not even be approved as a _topic_ for a debate by any competent Middle-School debating coach. For heaven's sake, at least pick a topic that can be argued based on something within shouting distance of the elementary principles of debating forensics. Analogy does not constitute proof, facts don't go to proof if they're not in evidence, supposition is not foundation, etc., etc. Not that I mean to hand _you_ any ammunition, but for a basic text, you might try Freeley and Steinberg's _Argumentation and Debate: Critical Thinking for Reasoned Decision Making_. --Mike
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce, I thought I would ignore your usual ever subtle shift in contentions after taking hits from others, but cannot resist :-). You are not contending that optical alignment is critical. Everybody knows that. You are not the only one to know it. You are not contending that any lens repositioning mechanism is prone to failure. Everybody knows that. You are not the only one to know it. Your real problem is shown below (and everywhere else in your posts on this thread, including the one that started it). Your usual problem in admitting any accomplishment by Pentax is the real underlying problem which masks the real contention and I was trying to uncover. Pentax had to spend a lot of time and money, to avoid taking too much of a performance hit, do something for the sake of fashion and marketing. In a number of markets it will sell very well because it is cool. You used the word such as cool, fashion, gimmick and tail fins etc to describe what Pentax accomplished for this particular model of digicam. Combine this twisted sentiment with plausible engineering argument ? Nonsense. Technically, you are still talking about the generality (prone to failure argument which everybody can state) but none of us here has any bases to examine this with sound engineering and quantitatively the degree of the difficulty to achieve the lens alignment etc. Showing how the lens is made and how the alignment is checked in the manufacturing process has no relevance to your contention here because nobody was questioning it. So, knock it off. You are not an optical nor electro-mechanical engineer. The complexity of the cut-out diagram might have scared you, but it does not tell much to anybody. As someone here said, the sensible statement is nice feature and looks cool. But the only the time will tell if this would work. I am in full agreement with that statement. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
Will the mechanism break? Yes, but probably not at rates that will create problems for Pentax. Will a lens that does this work optically as well as one that doesn't? No. Totally invalid conclusions. Assuming facts not in evidence. You may be right, you may be wrong. You really have no idea what you are talking about, simply because no one knows yet. --Mike
Re: ten new cameras
It's not a debating club. I can't debate that. But if it were, your ineptitude at argumentation would obviously not keep you away, since it *is* a Pentax club, and the fact that you hate Pentax doesn't faze you. --Mike
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/05/03 11:42 AM, Mike Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I can't debate that. But if it were, your ineptitude at argumentation would obviously not keep you away, since it *is* a Pentax club, and the fact that you hate Pentax doesn't faze you. Firstly to the fellow PDMLers, I apologize for littering the list with persistent pursuit of Bruce and picking on him. If you think that this poor soul coming out of nowhere is suddenly vocal about what Bruce says, that's what's happening here and I am sure it is annoying you. I happened to pick his recent subject and decided to grill it but I do not like most of his past posts, to tell the truth. Now to Bruce, This is after all the Pentax List., the place where people who use the Pentax exchange info and have fun with it. Good or bad about the Pentax are all welcome and useful. But let's not kid ourselves, but be honest to each other. I do not like your usual overtone of your posts. Not at all. Bashing Pentax gear is tolerable, but for a long time, you have been making it a point to insult people who own and use it. It is shwoing everywhere, and you have to be embarrassed. You please review your past posts using the word lunatics and all kinds of ill-mannered words. I balked at your recent posts regarding Optio S. In my mind, I really did not care what you and I said about the lens shifting mechanism or whatever else, but I was trying to stop your relentless, yes, the word is perversion, thank you. Bruce, if you have some sort of psychological block on whatever Pentax, or whatever Pentax do, nobody is forcing you to stay in the list. If you wish to enjoy exchanging notes and learn from it without ill-mannered poisoning of the pond, I have no doubt everybody welcomes you. Just don't poison the atmosphere under the disguise of plausible technical arguments. You are no more technical than anyone else here, which you proved yourself. Besides, you have been spreading a lot of misleading (and utterly wrong) info too, and I would constantly check what you utter with the help of my knowledgeable colleagues in Japan etc. Sorry for ranting. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
Hi, Rob wrote: (expletive deleted) 10 new digitals in the next 4 months But Henry's original quote was: more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras I see this as more likely to be literally what it says - an overhaul of the Espio line. mike
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
That Optio thingy is s small, rather cute too. I wouldn`t mind having one. Steve Larson Redondo Beach, California - Original Message - From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 2:31 AM Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced More details on the Pentax press conference today including photos of a Optio S cutting into halves, the future plans of Pentax and photos of the President of Pentax: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0204/pentax.htm Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: ten new cameras
Mike wrote: But Henry's original quote was: more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras I see this as more likely to be literally what it says - an overhaul of the Espio line. But according to Pentax president everything they do currently is small and lightweight so it could mean anything... Pål
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Alin Flaider wrote: To bent a quote, 2003 will be an exciting year or Pentax will not be at all... Sadly, I agree with this... Cheers, Boz
Re: ten new cameras
I've got to wonder if Mike W. has not got it right... new Espio's. Think small, compact, popularly priced, mass market digital. This is how you take the stock price to 1000 yen, and this is the same market as the ME/ME Super some 20+ years ago. Recreating the success of the past with great cameras at good prices. Regards, Bob S. But Henry's original quote was: more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras I see this as more likely to be literally what it says - an overhaul of the Espio line.
RE: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Just ran it through babelfish and it doesn't really say anything new apart from reiterating the 10 new models stuff. The only bit which could be interesting is for the Optio S: In addition as for MCM, we have assumed it actualized the release time lag of approximately 0.01 seconds, shortened also starting time Does this mean a fast startup and short shutter lag? That 'cut in half' pucture is REALLY cool! -Original Message- From: Pål Jensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 February 2003 12:35 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced Can someone please translate this? Pål - Original Message - From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:31 AM Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced More details on the Pentax press conference today including photos of a Optio S cutting into halves, the future plans of Pentax and photos of the President of Pentax: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0204/pentax.htm Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
RE: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Maybe Mr. Babelfish will give you a clue...:-) Ondrej -Original Message- From: Pĺl Jensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 1:35 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced Can someone please translate this? Pål - Original Message - From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 11:31 AM Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced More details on the Pentax press conference today including photos of a Optio S cutting into halves, the future plans of Pentax and photos of the President of Pentax: http://pc.watch.impress.co.jp/docs/2003/0204/pentax.htm Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ The new MSN 8: smart spam protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: ten new cameras
Bob wrote: I've got to wonder if Mike W. has not got it right... new Espio's. Think small, compact, popularly priced, mass market digital. This is how you take the stock price to 1000 yen, and this is the same market as the ME/ME Super some 20+ years ago. One DSLR, one film sibling and a new 67. That leaves a maximum of seven Espios :o) Pål
RE: ten new cameras
-Original Message- From: Pål Jensen [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Bob wrote: I've got to wonder if Mike W. has not got it right... new Espio's. Think small, compact, popularly priced, mass market digital. This is how you take the stock price to 1000 yen, and this is the same market as the ME/ME Super some 20+ years ago. One DSLR, one film sibling and a new 67. That leaves a maximum of seven Espios :o) I think we'll see a 2nd DSLR announced by the end of the year. tv
Re: ten new cameras
But Henry's original quote was: more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras I see this as more likely to be literally what it says - an overhaul of the Espio line. Most likely, something along these lines, although I anticipate more compact digital models. However, from the rumblings, it looks like there could be as many as three new cameras by the Fall that will be of interest to US--namely, the P-DSLR (which contrary to previous reports, may indeed be called ist), the new compact 6x7 (I would think that a promise from the president of the company is as good as it's going to get in terms of future certainty) , and one new 35mm SLR...which may be another mass-market consumer jobbie, true, but then again it may not be. If this comes to pass, three out of ten cameras being of interest to PDML'ers ain't a bad ratio at all, not at all. Two out of ten ain't bad either, if the film SLR turns out to be another non-serious camera for the Disney crowds. Incidentally, I know nothing. Well, I know one minor thing, but I ain't supposed to say. --Mike P.S. I propose a new division of terms for this discussion: P-DSLR: Any old Pentax Digital Single Lens Reflex, even, or especially, a crappy cheapo cynical rushed-to-market cobbled-up little 3-mp mass-market sensor jobbie that'll have us all moaning and groaning and venting; PDMLDSLR: Pentax Discuss Mailing List Digital Single Lens Reflex, for a thoughtfully designed, well-executed camera that many of us would at least be interested in and wouldn't mind owning, and that would get some of us to stay with Pentax as we switch over to digital. (continued in the next post...)
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Dear all, Some new information from digitalcamera.jp regarding the press conference today by Pentax: 1. The ten new cameras are digital (not mentioned in the web sites I quoted earlier) 2. The manufacture base of Pentax in Philippine can produce 7-8 digital cameras per month. 3. The image processing software of Optio S is solely Pentax in-house design. 4. All the Casio digital cameras after QV-10 use Pentax lens. The cooperative relationship between the two companies is very good and successful and will continue in the future. 5. Pentax is going to announce digital cameras of higher image quality and higher performance very soon. 6. Budget on digital camera development has doubled last year. Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ten new cameras to be announced Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:20:35 +0800 Dear all, Just got some stunning news from Japan. Today, Pentax officially announced the Optio S in Japanese market. The President of Pentax stated that Pentax is now ready to enter the competition in digital cameras battle field, like he is now standing in the boxing ring and the bell is ringing. He also stated that by mid 2003, there will be more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras entering into the market. They will strengthen the advertising activities and hope to increase their market shares from 2% to 5%. The current camera production rate of the company is about 70,000 to 80,000 units per month. Here is the Japanese link: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20030204-0019-bcn-sci Am I dreaming? Pentax is waking up! Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
RE: ten new cameras
Ah, but the 'more than 10' new ones are due by MID 2003! So much happenning... -Original Message- From: tom [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] I think we'll see a 2nd DSLR announced by the end of the year.
RE: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Henry, you are a saint!! -Original Message- From: Iren Henry Chu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 February 2003 14:52 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced Dear all, Some new information from digitalcamera.jp regarding the press conference today by Pentax: 1. The ten new cameras are digital (not mentioned in the web sites I quoted earlier) 2. The manufacture base of Pentax in Philippine can produce 7-8 digital cameras per month. 3. The image processing software of Optio S is solely Pentax in-house design. 4. All the Casio digital cameras after QV-10 use Pentax lens. The cooperative relationship between the two companies is very good and successful and will continue in the future. 5. Pentax is going to announce digital cameras of higher image quality and higher performance very soon. 6. Budget on digital camera development has doubled last year. Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ten new cameras to be announced Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:20:35 +0800 Dear all, Just got some stunning news from Japan. Today, Pentax officially announced the Optio S in Japanese market. The President of Pentax stated that Pentax is now ready to enter the competition in digital cameras battle field, like he is now standing in the boxing ring and the bell is ringing. He also stated that by mid 2003, there will be more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras entering into the market. They will strengthen the advertising activities and hope to increase their market shares from 2% to 5%. The current camera production rate of the company is about 70,000 to 80,000 units per month. Here is the Japanese link: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20030204-0019-bcn-sci Am I dreaming? Pentax is waking up! Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
Re: Re: ten new cameras
Hi Mike, Please answer my direct mail to you. Cheers Alek Uytkownik Mike Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] napisa: But Henry\'s original quote was: more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras I see this as more likely to be literally what it says - an overhaul of the Espio line. Most likely, something along these lines, although I anticipate more compact digital models. However, from the rumblings, it looks like there could be as many as three new cameras by the Fall that will be of interest to US--namely, the P-DSLR (which contrary to previous reports, may indeed be called ist), the new compact 6x7 (I would think that a promise from the president of the company is as good as it\'s going to get in terms of future certainty) , and one new 35mm SLR...which may be another mass-market consumer jobbie, true, but then again it may not be. If this comes to pass, three out of ten cameras being of interest to PDML\'ers ain\'t a bad ratio at all, not at all. Two out of ten ain\'t bad either, if the film SLR turns out to be another non-serious camera for the Disney crowds. Incidentally, I know nothing. Well, I know one minor thing, but I ain\'t supposed to say. --Mike P.S. I propose a new division of terms for this discussion: P-DSLR: Any old Pentax Digital Single Lens Reflex, even, or especially, a crappy cheapo cynical rushed-to-market cobbled-up little 3-mp mass-market sensor jobbie that\'ll have us all moaning and groaning and venting; PDMLDSLR: Pentax Discuss Mailing List Digital Single Lens Reflex, for a thoughtfully designed, well-executed camera that many of us would at least be interested in and wouldn\'t mind owning, and that would get some of us to stay with Pentax as we switch over to digital. (continued in the next post...) --r-e-k-l-a-m-a- OnetPoczta: dua, szybka, bezpieczna! http://poczta.onet.pl/oferta/
RE: ten new cameras
-Original Message- From: Rob Brigham [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Ah, but the 'more than 10' new ones are due by MID 2003! This is true, but I think only one will be a dslr, and it will be targeted at the low end. I think a higher spec'd one will follow shortly. tv
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
This is wonderful news! I left Henry's previous message appended, as this message is a continuation and elaboration of that message. Just when we thought Pentax was going to abandon us, right? All the doom-sayers can now recant. Or remain silent and ponder... grin keith whaley Iren Henry Chu wrote: Dear all, Some new information from digitalcamera.jp regarding the press conference today by Pentax: 1. The ten new cameras are digital (not mentioned in the web sites I quoted earlier) 2. The manufacture base of Pentax in Philippine can produce 7-8 digital cameras per month. 3. The image processing software of Optio S is solely Pentax in-house design. 4. All the Casio digital cameras after QV-10 use Pentax lens. The cooperative relationship between the two companies is very good and successful and will continue in the future. 5. Pentax is going to announce digital cameras of higher image quality and higher performance very soon. 6. Budget on digital camera development has doubled last year. Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ten new cameras to be announced Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:20:35 +0800 Dear all, Just got some stunning news from Japan. Today, Pentax officially announced the Optio S in Japanese market. The President of Pentax stated that Pentax is now ready to enter the competition in digital cameras battle field, like he is now standing in the boxing ring and the bell is ringing. He also stated that by mid 2003, there will be more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras entering into the market. They will strengthen the advertising activities and hope to increase their market shares from 2% to 5%. The current camera production rate of the company is about 70,000 to 80,000 units per month. Here is the Japanese link: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20030204-0019-bcn-sci Am I dreaming? Pentax is waking up! Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003
Re: ten new cameras
There is no doubt that Pentax can build a solid future on PS style cameras, like Olympus did, but how many people on this list really care about those cameras? BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I've got to wonder if Mike W. has not got it right... new Espio's. Think small, compact, popularly priced, mass market digital. This is how you take the stock price to 1000 yen, and this is the same market as the ME/ME Super some 20+ years ago. Recreating the success of the past with great cameras at good prices. Regards, Bob S.
Re: ten new cameras
If you look at the cut-away, you would see that the camera is flat only with the lens stored. To make it pack flat the center element group is moved out of the light path so the front and rear groups can be brought closer together. I wonder what sort of alignment can be maintained after that camera is opened and closed 1,000 times. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me. I'd like something along the lines of a Canon G3 with Pentax design philosophy. I'm really interested in the image quality of the Optio S. With the flat front of the case, a piece of cling film printed with any type of cigarette or small package labels would make the camera almost invisible for street shootingand the size can't be beat. I'm willing to bet that with that camera I could start taking pictures of my 6 year old son without having him stick out his tongue, rolling his eyes or otherwise attempting to spoil the shot. ;-) Dan Scott
RE: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
I really like how pentax is spelled in japanese: pentak(u)su *g* On 4 Feb 2003 at 15:15, Rob Brigham wrote: Henry, you are a saint!! -Original Message- From: Iren Henry Chu [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 04 February 2003 14:52 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Ten new cameras to be announced Dear all, Some new information from digitalcamera.jp regarding the press conference today by Pentax: 1. The ten new cameras are digital (not mentioned in the web sites I quoted earlier) 2. The manufacture base of Pentax in Philippine can produce 7-8 digital cameras per month. 3. The image processing software of Optio S is solely Pentax in-house design. 4. All the Casio digital cameras after QV-10 use Pentax lens. The cooperative relationship between the two companies is very good and successful and will continue in the future. 5. Pentax is going to announce digital cameras of higher image quality and higher performance very soon. 6. Budget on digital camera development has doubled last year. Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ten new cameras to be announced Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:20:35 +0800 Dear all, Just got some stunning news from Japan. Today, Pentax officially announced the Optio S in Japanese market. The President of Pentax stated that Pentax is now ready to enter the competition in digital cameras battle field, like he is now standing in the boxing ring and the bell is ringing. He also stated that by mid 2003, there will be more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras entering into the market. They will strengthen the advertising activities and hope to increase their market shares from 2% to 5%. The current camera production rate of the company is about 70,000 to 80,000 units per month. Here is the Japanese link: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20030204-0019-bcn-sci Am I dreaming? Pentax is waking up! Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail _ Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ** Desertrose Chris' Katrin's X Japan homepage! Please visit it! http://www.xjapan.de * From now on I will try to live for you and for me. I will live with love...with dreams... and forever with tears.. **
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Keith wrote: Just when we thought Pentax was going to abandon us, right Wrong! I never thought for a moment. Pål
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: If you look at the cut-away, you would see that the camera is flat only with the lens stored. To make it pack flat the center element group is moved out of the light path so the front and rear groups can be brought closer together. I wonder what sort of alignment can be maintained after that camera is opened and closed 1,000 times. If the electro-mechanical engineer has done HIS job well, it will easily survive... 1000 times is a picayune goal! I seriously doubt that it closes with a SLAM! It undoubtedly eases up, in and closed, and gently settles into it's dock, nice and snug... You ought to get 100,000 cycles or more out of a gentle motion like that! keith whaley, M.E. emeritus! [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Me. I'd like something along the lines of a Canon G3 with Pentax design philosophy. I'm really interested in the image quality of the Optio S. With the flat front of the case, a piece of cling film printed with any type of cigarette or small package labels would make the camera almost invisible for street shootingand the size can't be beat. I'm willing to bet that with that camera I could start taking pictures of my 6 year old son without having him stick out his tongue, rolling his eyes or otherwise attempting to spoil the shot. ;-)
Re: ten new cameras
Hope you're right! g Regards, Bob S. [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: One DSLR, one film sibling and a new 67. That leaves a maximum of seven Espios :o) Pål
Re: ten new cameras
On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 11:42 AM, Bruce Rubenstein wrote: If you look at the cut-away, you would see that the camera is flat only with the lens stored. To make it pack flat the center element group is moved out of the light path so the front and rear groups can be brought closer together. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, I guess I thought it was obvious I wasn't suggesting covering up the lens or any piece of the camera that couldn't function if coveredbut if wasn't obvious let me state that I was only suggesting covering up those flat surfaces of the camera which could be covered without reducing or interfering with the Optio S's functionality (i.e., not covering the lens, viewfinder, lcd, control button, etc.) Dan Scott
Re: ten new cameras
On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 08:53 AM, Pål Jensen wrote: Bob wrote: I've got to wonder if Mike W. has not got it right... new Espio's. Think small, compact, popularly priced, mass market digital. This is how you take the stock price to 1000 yen, and this is the same market as the ME/ME Super some 20+ years ago. One DSLR, one film sibling and a new 67. That leaves a maximum of seven Espios :o) Pål 6 Espios, as there has to be one body devoted to that popular Pentax accessory Proct-O-Scope®. ;-) Dan Scott
Re: ten new cameras
It isn't how many times you can get the mechanism to work, it's the alignment of the lens elements. Those lens elements are going to have relatively small diameters and axial alignment tolerances have to be very tight to keep performance from going down the toilet. Let's not forget this has to be mass produced and still has to be cost competitive in its class. Who ever buys this camera will be paying for that flat storage feature in more ways than they imagine. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the electro-mechanical engineer has done HIS job well, it will easily survive... 1000 times is a picayune goal! I seriously doubt that it closes with a SLAM! It undoubtedly eases up, in and closed, and gently settles into it's dock, nice and snug... You ought to get 100,000 cycles or more out of a gentle motion like that!
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: It isn't how many times you can get the mechanism to work, it's the alignment of the lens elements. Those lens elements are going to have relatively small diameters and axial alignment tolerances have to be very tight to keep performance from going down the toilet. Let's not forget this has to be mass produced and still has to be cost competitive in its class. This is not rocket science, folks... This is just plain attention to detail and being respectful of the specified mechanical tolerances. When/while the central lens package has been taken out of the optical path, from then on, it's simply a matter of protecting it from damage, or damaging something else. Once it sashays back _into_ the optical axis, it must nestle into position positively and surely, each and every time. This is not magic. This is precise mechanical engineering. It might require some fancy 'tricks of the trade' but it's not undoable. I don't know... perhaps 45 years of designing E/M assemblies has jaded me. I tend to think if it can be conceived, it can be brought to fruition. IF the ME does his job... Who ever buys this camera will be paying for that flat storage feature in more ways than they imagine. BR Can't say I agree. If the Pentax engineers haven't provided for all possibilities and accounted for all exigencies, then if you have a problem, it's the engineers you ought to blame, not the design. If the design engineers have done _their_ job right, and the manufacturing engineers have done _their_ job right, and it's been proven with extensive testing, and the assemblers have done _their_ job right ~ it will work and work well. A 'trick' design doesn't mean a cheap or insufficient design... It's merely a new and unique way of looking at things! Keith [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If the electro-mechanical engineer has done HIS job well, it will easily survive... 1000 times is a picayune goal! I seriously doubt that it closes with a SLAM! It undoubtedly eases up, in and closed, and gently settles into it's dock, nice and snug... You ought to get 100,000 cycles or more out of a gentle motion like that!
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 1:59 PM, Bruce Rubenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It isn't how many times you can get the mechanism to work, it's the alignment of the lens elements. Your initial question was indeed boiled down to the cycle. I am sure the alignment is fine and the concern, if any, would be about the mechanical cycle. But as a mechanical engineer, 100,000 cycle sounds more intelligent than 1,000 cycles which could be reached in a matter of weeks, particularly during the initial stage when owners tend to play with it. And I am sure that they designed the positioning mechanism fine, have cycle tested and determined that it can take the rigour of consumers' abuse. The rest of your argument is your speculation based on your level of knowledge. I trust Pentax rather than you. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 1:40 PM, Dan Scott [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tuesday, February 4, 2003, at 11:42 AM, Bruce Rubenstein wrote: If you look at the cut-away, you would see that the camera is flat only with the lens stored. To make it pack flat the center element group is moved out of the light path so the front and rear groups can be brought closer together. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: but if wasn't obvious let me state that I was only suggesting covering up those flat surfaces of the camera which could be covered without reducing or interfering with the Optio S's functionality (i.e., not covering the lens, viewfinder, lcd, control button, etc.) Of course everybody else knew what you meant and you did not have to elaborate. Bruce has a bad habit of jumping the gun, causing other people to needlessly elaborate the point. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 2:43 PM, Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Once it sashays back _into_ the optical axis, it must nestle into position positively and surely, each and every time. This is not magic. This is precise mechanical engineering. It might require some fancy 'tricks of the trade' but it's not undoable. I don't know... perhaps 45 years of designing E/M assemblies has jaded me. I tend to think if it can be conceived, it can be brought to fruition. IF the ME does his job... In full agreement. This is exactly the way a trained engineer thinks. BR might think differently. Ken
Re: ten new cameras
On 4 Feb 2003 at 13:24, Keith Whaley wrote: I suppose you'd know, but it isn't the optical engineer that designs the optical mounts for his lenses...it's the mechanical engineer! It's HE that arranges for the lenses to be precisely a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** and precisely in plane (parallel to each other.) If it tests okay on the optical bench, _both_ the optical and the mechanical engineer have done their jobs correctly... g And if a nasal hair finds its way into the camera and gets stuck in the lube between the lens and the rest then it's history, off for service because the images aren't sharp. This is the problem with design engineers, they can't see past the lab. Rob Studdert HURSTVILLE AUSTRALIA Tel +61-2-9554-4110 UTC(GMT) +10 Hours [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://members.ozemail.com.au/~distudio/publications.html
Re: ten new cameras
Beyond perhaps wanting one, or seeing it as a camera to suggest the next time a non-hobbyist asks what digital camera should I buy, I think the reason to be excited about this, is that if these little babies sell, it may keep Pentax a healthy company. More cash-flow may mean more RD for the stuff many on this list really want. It won't guarantee it, but there's a better chance... cheers, frank Dan Scott wrote: Me. I'd like something along the lines of a Canon G3 with Pentax design philosophy. I'm really interested in the image quality of the Optio S. With the flat front of the case, a piece of cling film printed with any type of cigarette or small package labels would make the camera almost invisible for street shootingand the size can't be beat. I'm willing to bet that with that camera I could start taking pictures of my 6 year old son without having him stick out his tongue, rolling his eyes or otherwise attempting to spoil the shot. ;-) Dan Scott -- The optimist thinks this is the best of all possible worlds. The pessimist fears it is true. -J. Robert Oppenheimer
Re: ten new cameras
I'm not going to bother arguing with a gadget freak fool. Go here: A Virtual Tour of the Lens Production http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf/Inhalt-FrameDHTML/4FDEACEDCB7D0AF541256A53003923AA and come back when you know something. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still boils down to the mechanical cycle to me ;-). You are relating the possible shift of the optical axis to the mechanical cycle.
Re: ten new cameras
...and then you slide a group of elements in and out from the side a few thousand times using a mechanism that can't cost more than a few bucks, and tell me how many red-headed flea's fine curly hairs it shifted from the time it rolled off the line. Did you even look at the diagram of what's going on inside that lens assembly every time you turn the thing on and off? BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *I* meant optical alignment, too... I suppose you'd know, but it isn't the optical engineer that designs the optical mounts for his lenses...it's the mechanical engineer! It's HE that arranges for the lenses to be precisely a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** and precisely in plane (parallel to each other.) If it tests okay on the optical bench, _both_ the optical and the mechanical engineer have done their jobs correctly... g All by themselves, neither the optical nor the mechanical engineer are worth sour owl s[cat.] They must work in concert to build a beautiful sonata in glass! g keith whaley Sorry for any confusion, but I couldn't imagine it not working mechanically for many thousands of cycles. It's still a whizzy feature and does nothing to help functional performance. The folks responsible for the space shuttle were also supposed to be the best in the business also. I also know that you and Pal fly into a blind rage when anyone says anything negative about Pentax. BR
Re: ten new cameras
At least somebody else looked at that diagram, and understood what is going on inside that lens. It's all being done for style, and no different than tail fins. If that's what folks want then that's fine. It just won't help how well it works. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They'd have to have some pretty impressive technology in there in order to maintain the optical alignment between the elements. Even minor decentring will have a visible effect given the sensors pixel density. I wouldn't be purchasing one with expectations of performance anything like larger cameras such as the Canon G3.
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 6:18 PM, Rob Studdert [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: However, you vastly improved yourself after your Pentax digital never bubble burst, and became a better contributor to the list. Keep it up :-). We still don't have a DSLR Ken. Fair enough, Rob and I said the same thing to Bruce. Perhaps I should have rephrased it Stupid Pentax has no ability to design DSLR bubble with NEVER tone. In addition, it was anyone waiting for the Pentax DSLR is wasting time, and anyone who buy into Pentax is stupid bubble. It was not DSLR in flesh not yet bubble :-). But it is true that there is no Pentax DSLR yet. That's the fact, and we shall see. Cheers, Ken
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 5:45 PM, Bruce Rubenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm not going to bother arguing with a gadget freak fool. Go here: A Virtual Tour of the Lens Production http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf/Inhalt-FrameDHTML/4FDEACEDCB7D0AF54125 6A53003923AA and come back when you know something. Bruce, there are far better description even in a humble in Canon site (and others) about the lens production and testing and a whole bit. And if you are really interested in understanding the lens performance, there a few reputable shareware software for amateur hobbyists with which you can experiment the lens design yourself. Just like you are not an optical engineer, I do not pretend I am. It is a shame to do so. This is not a pissing contest, and I do not want to litter this list with the amateur opinions by you and me. But I do have one point which bothers me. Nobody is arguing about the optical alignment, although your posting may look like so. But the underlying truth is you are really talking about the engineering approach and the methodology, but you do not realize it. What you are really saying is that the lens shift gimmick is making the lens system prone to the shift because of its cycling (in your opinion, as low as 1,000 cycles). If the lens retracting mechanism is not well designed, and if the lens misalignment occurs, that's the design failure. And you are suggesting that that the Pentax lens positioning gimmick will make the lens alignment prone to the shift. That's why you are arguing about the mechanical concern rather than the optical misalignment. That's the engineering answer. If you do not understand this simple fact, well, sorry, you do not know what you are contending. But forget about all the engineering argument. It is futile with you. If engineers look at your original post, they see thru the crux of the matter which is not the lens alignment, but the mechanical cycle to cause the possible misalignment. If the ordinary PDMLers looked at your post, they think you are making a sarcastic remark on Pentax's achievement. That's all. No big deal. So much on this. Sleep well, Ken Oh, BTW, I am sure you know that even Zeiss lenses, there are many cull you can find just by shining a laser pointer beam. You will find some of the lenses or groups misaligned. I agree that the smaller the lenses are, the less tolerant they are for the misalignment. But as I said, it was not really your contention. Read your own post.
Re: ten new cameras
- Original Message - From: Bruce Rubenstein Subject: Re: ten new cameras It isn't how many times you can get the mechanism to work, it's the alignment of the lens elements. Those lens elements are going to have relatively small diameters and axial alignment tolerances have to be very tight to keep performance from going down the toilet. Let's not forget this has to be mass produced and still has to be cost competitive in its class. Who ever buys this camera will be paying for that flat storage feature in more ways than they imagine. Canon had a point and shoot a while back with a 35-105mm lens, I don't recall the model designation, Sure Shot something or other. Anyway, thats not important. Canon bragged about how the lens was able to retract fully into the body by having two sets of lens elements turn 90º from the axis so that the front group could nest between them. Nice idea. They sold well, and came back in droves due to optical misalignment. Apparently, all it took was for a bit of grot to find it's way into the lens nest while the lens was denested, and the groups wouldn't align properly anymore. Also, unless the lens group and nest are brass mounts, I wouldn't expect a lot of cycles before the nest starts to wear. Time will tell William Robb
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 6:01 PM, Bruce Rubenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's all being done for style, and no different than tail fins. If that's what folks want then that's fine. It just won't help how well it works. Very amateurish way of looking at the engineering design from the person who claims to have an engineering/design background. It is true that a good engineer should never look at anything for granted and try to look at things from different angles, but I have to repeat that this particular design is not a rocket science. There are lot more complicated design in any of the small electro-mechanical gadget like a camera. My interpretation is that, when engineers (never mind Pentax or not) encounter the conflicting design requirement to pack an extending zoom barrel into a card size format, they squeezed their brain to come up with the solution which is to get certain lens group out of its way. Normally, things like the lens alignment etc preoccupy the mind of non-creative type engineers which hinders the progress of the design. As any gadget design, there might be some bugs cropping up but I am sure the major ones were already debugged. I can see that the overall design objective of this camera was to make it as small as possible, and the lens shifting design was just one of the solutions to achieve that goal, but not the primary purpose. Pentax applied over 30 patents for this concept. I am sure there would be other applications. Well, IS woks, and why not this? I would think it is a good and useful design for the money. Tail fins? I do not think so. You may not like whatever Pentax accomplish but the life goes on regardless ;-). Take care, Ken
Re: ten new cameras
I put in a bad link before. To get to the Zeiss Virtual Lens Production Tour, start here: http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf BR
Re: ten new cameras
Oh yes, lets not trouble ourselves with these arcane, technical details that effect performance when we have to worry about really important putting the camera in a pocket without making a bulge and incorporating a digital Dick Tracy decoder ring and programmable whistle. You are a know-nothing, f**king, idiot. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Normally, things like the lens alignment etc preoccupy the mind of non-creative type engineers which hinders the progress of the design.
Re: ten new cameras
On Tue, 04 Feb 2003 19:28:22 -0500, Bruce Rubenstein wrote: You are a know-nothing, f**king, idiot. Don't mence words, Bruce. Tell us how you really feel.:-) Later, Gary
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: ...and then you slide a group of elements in and out from the side a few thousand times using a mechanism that can't cost more than a few bucks, and tell me how many red-headed flea's fine curly hairs it shifted from the time it rolled off the line. Did you even look at the diagram of what's going on inside that lens assembly every time you turn the thing on and off? Immaterial. keith BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: *I* meant optical alignment, too... I suppose you'd know, but it isn't the optical engineer that designs the optical mounts for his lenses...it's the mechanical engineer! It's HE that arranges for the lenses to be precisely a red-headed flea's fine curly hair apart, and axially aligned within a gnat's gn** and precisely in plane (parallel to each other.) If it tests okay on the optical bench, _both_ the optical and the mechanical engineer have done their jobs correctly... g All by themselves, neither the optical nor the mechanical engineer are worth sour owl s[cat.] They must work in concert to build a beautiful sonata in glass! g keith whaley Sorry for any confusion, but I couldn't imagine it not working mechanically for many thousands of cycles. It's still a whizzy feature and does nothing to help functional performance. The folks responsible for the space shuttle were also supposed to be the best in the business also. I also know that you and Pal fly into a blind rage when anyone says anything negative about Pentax. BR
Re: Ten new cameras to be announced!!!!
Dear all, There are more follow-up news coverage on yesterday's Pentax press conference. The first one is from Nikkei News Agency: http://www.nikkei.co.jp/news/sangyo/20030204AT1D0405504022003.html It mentioned that Pentax is going to set up a factory in China for manufacturing digital cameras. Pentax expect a total digital camera sales value of 50 billion yen (US$400million) for 2003 and will put in 8 billion yen (US$70million)for digital camera RD. The second one from Japanese Industrial Journal is more interesting: http://www.jij.co.jp/news/car/art-20030204184929-DBLDZYZWYL.nwc It mentioned that Pentax is developing a D-SLR with high pixel count. Regards, Henry Chu 5/2/2003 Iren Henry Chu wrote: Dear all, Some new information from digitalcamera.jp regarding the press conference today by Pentax: 1. The ten new cameras are digital (not mentioned in the web sites I quoted earlier) 2. The manufacture base of Pentax in Philippine can produce 7-8 digital cameras per month. 3. The image processing software of Optio S is solely Pentax in-house design. 4. All the Casio digital cameras after QV-10 use Pentax lens. The cooperative relationship between the two companies is very good and successful and will continue in the future. 5. Pentax is going to announce digital cameras of higher image quality and higher performance very soon. 6. Budget on digital camera development has doubled last year. Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 From: Iren Henry Chu [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ten new cameras to be announced Date: Tue, 04 Feb 2003 18:20:35 +0800 Dear all, Just got some stunning news from Japan. Today, Pentax officially announced the Optio S in Japanese market. The President of Pentax stated that Pentax is now ready to enter the competition in digital cameras battle field, like he is now standing in the boxing ring and the bell is ringing. He also stated that by mid 2003, there will be more than 10 new light weight and compact Pentax cameras entering into the market. They will strengthen the advertising activities and hope to increase their market shares from 2% to 5%. The current camera production rate of the company is about 70,000 to 80,000 units per month. Here is the Japanese link: http://headlines.yahoo.co.jp/hl?a=20030204-0019-bcn-sci Am I dreaming? Pentax is waking up! Regards, Henry Chu 4/2/2003 _ Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail
Re: ten new cameras
Nobody KNOWs how it works yet, do they... smile keith Bruce Rubenstein wrote: At least somebody else looked at that diagram, and understood what is going on inside that lens. It's all being done for style, and no different than tail fins. If that's what folks want then that's fine. It just won't help how well it works. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: They'd have to have some pretty impressive technology in there in order to maintain the optical alignment between the elements. Even minor decentring will have a visible effect given the sensors pixel density. I wouldn't be purchasing one with expectations of performance anything like larger cameras such as the Canon G3.
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: I'm not going to bother arguing with a gadget freak fool. Haven't lost your touch for trying to demean and put down everyone you disagree with, have you Bruce... keith Go here: A Virtual Tour of the Lens Production http://www.zeiss.de/de/photo/home_e.nsf/Inhalt-FrameDHTML/4FDEACEDCB7D0AF541256A53003923AA and come back when you know something. BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Still boils down to the mechanical cycle to me ;-). You are relating the possible shift of the optical axis to the mechanical cycle.
Re: ten new cameras
Bruce Rubenstein wrote: Oh yes, lets not trouble ourselves with these arcane, technical details that effect performance when we have to worry about really important putting the camera in a pocket without making a bulge and incorporating a digital Dick Tracy decoder ring and programmable whistle. You are a know-nothing, f**king, idiot. All I have to do is wait a few minutes, and you prove my point! g keith BR [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Normally, things like the lens alignment etc preoccupy the mind of non-creative type engineers which hinders the progress of the design.
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 7:28 PM, Bruce Rubenstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh yes, lets not trouble ourselves with these arcane, technical details that effect performance when we have to worry about really important putting the camera in a pocket without making a bulge and incorporating a digital Dick Tracy decoder ring and programmable whistle. Yes, that aspect does exist, and I personally do not care much about it. But it could be useful as a plain pockettable camera. The camera is specifically designed for that appeal, and there is nothing wrong with it. If Pentax wish to come up with 10 different digicams in one year, they may wish to cover all possible market bases. Nothing wrong with it either. BTW, this camera was designed specifically as a sort of memo camera and that's why it comes with voice recorder and all the other stuff you normally find in Casio stuff. Memo camera is better to be pockettable. BTW, you know it is not a DSLR. You are a know-nothing, f**king, idiot. Thank you for your compliment :-). No I do not know anything about cameras. Yes, you are the one who knows it all. I fully agree with it :-). I am just speaking up my mind. And as I said, I am not a big shot, know-it-all person as you are (or portray to be), and that's why I do not lose sleep over this sort of argument. I know what I am and do not have to explode with f word, revealing what you really are (and I knew you will end up in this mode anyway). I know you just ran out of reasoned argument and got frustrated. It's just the PDML, Bruce. Take it easy. I know all Pentax owners are lunatics but I do not wish to methodically chop up your hearsay arguments any more. Life is too short for the aggravation and I feel sorry for you. I shall cease. Cheers (literally) Ken
Re: ten new cameras
On 2/04/03 8:18 PM, Keith Whaley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Oh yes, lets not trouble ourselves with these arcane, technical details that effect performance when we have to worry about really important putting the camera in a pocket without making a bulge and incorporating a digital Dick Tracy decoder ring and programmable whistle. You are a know-nothing, f**king, idiot. All I have to do is wait a few minutes, and you prove my point! g Ah ha! A native English speaker knows how to make a point in a short sentence. Bruce is operating on the premise that we all do not understand the critical importance of the lens alignment etc. Those points are given. I heard nobody here saying that they are not important. Difficult guy to debate with. Cheers, Ken
