Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[brooksdj]

> > > Tom said
> 
> NO! There's no way in hell I'm going to wrestle with that goddamned scanner 
> and
software.
That's why I shoot slides in the first place. I don't want to deal with any of 
that.
> 
> Why do you think the playing field will be uneven? In which way?
> 
> I fully expect to be at a competitive disadvantage because my slides are what 
> they are
and
the digital images can be altered. The digitally projected images at the GFM 
presentations
didn't seem to suffer much compated to the slides that were shown.

I thought the quality was very good. Was'nt there a comment from Don about the 
new
projector and 
cost of same.

Good is better i say.:-)

Dave
> 
> Tom Reese
> 
> 
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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Rick Womer]

I was impressed with the quality of the digital
projection at GFM, too--until Charles Braswell
switched from digital to slides toward the end of his
talk.

There is still -nothing- like a good slide,
well-projected.

Rick

--- Mark Roberts <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> At the Grandfather Mountain photo contest we used a
> projection monitor
> with 1200 x 1600 resolution, IIRC. We kept all the
> images at the
> resolution at which they were supplied to us,
> generally the camera's
> full resolution. We used IrfanView to display
> everything for the
> awards presentation and let IrfanView do the
> resizing for display.
> Had no problems whatsoever. In fact, we were kind of
> surprised at how
> smoothly everything went.
>  
> -- 
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> www.robertstech.com
> 412-687-2835
> 
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> 


http://www.photo.net/photos/RickW

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Jun 16, 2006, at 5:27 PM, Bob W wrote:

>> We just project slides. The club I belong to is quite happily
>> ignoring digital.
>
> I suppose you could say the give digital the finger...

LOL

Good for them. When the last film production line is closed down,  
they'll all sing in chorus, "And we'll all go together when we go..."

;-)

Godfrey

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RE: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Bob W]

> 
> We just project slides. The club I belong to is quite happily 
> ignoring 
> digital.
> 
> William Robb 
> 

I suppose you could say the give digital the finger...

Bob



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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Jostein]

Hi Tom,

In our local branch of Biofoto (mother-organisation at: 
http://www.biofoto.no), the competition goes in two separate classes. 
Projected digital images, and projected slide film images. We have a 
Dell XGA projector (1024x768), and a Leica Pradovit RT-s 35mm slide 
film projector.

Meetings take place in a large auditorium (200 seats, at least) at 
Oslo University.

The competition has been arranged like this for almost 2 years now. To 
begin with, all the projected images were lumped in one class. 
However, by consensus, this arrangement was dropped after 6 months 
because the digital images constantly came out on top. It was simply 
terribly unfair to the 35mm slide film images.

Our experiences are that the lo-rez digital images look far, far 
better when projected than do 35mm slides. Projector brightness has a 
lot to do with that. A sufficiently powerful bulb in the Leica 
Pradovit would melt the film base. The film highlights has a granular, 
gritty look that none of us really gave any thought before digital. 
Even from high resolution films like Velvia, Provia or E100VS, which 
still are the dominating emulsions.



Jostein

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Reese" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "Pentax List" 
Sent: Friday, June 16, 2006 3:46 PM
Subject: camera club question re: projected image contests


> Hey all,
>
> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. 
> We're going to combine projected digital images and slides in future 
> contests in order to provide maximum opportunity for participation. 
> Members won't have to make prints to enter contests and they'll save 
> a lot of aggravation and expense.
>
> My question from other club members is:
>
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do 
> you use for the images? Have you had any problems?
>
> thanks for your help.
>
> Tom Reese
>
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RE: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Jens Bladt]

Hello Tom
We have discussed the samme matter at our last camera club meeting. We are
going to allow digital entries as well as prints and slides.
We haven't yet decided about resolution, compression, size - the chaiman and
the board is deciding on this issue.
In my experience a max 1024x768 pixel image (made from a 3000x2000 300 ppi
file and then compressed (throug Save to Web in PS) will make a  200 KB
filew,which is quite usable for projections/slide shows. Anyway, this is
what I usually do.
Take a look at: http://www.jensbladt.dk/Diasshow.html
click. Vis Dias Show

And see the camera club web site at:
http://www.koege-foto-klub.dk/



Regards

Jens Bladt
http://www.jensbladt.dk
+45 56 63 77 11
+45 23 43 85 77
Skype: jensbladt248

-Oprindelig meddelelse-
Fra: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] vegne af Tom
Reese
Sendt: 16. juni 2006 15:47
Til: Pentax List
Emne: camera club question re: projected image contests


Hey all,

Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going
to combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order
to provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make
prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.

My question from other club members is:

are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use
for the images? Have you had any problems?

thanks for your help.

Tom Reese

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Jun 16, 2006, at 11:00 AM, Tom Reese wrote:

> From: "Patrice LACOUTURE (GMail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>
>> ... While a slide can be projected vertically and horizontally  
>> with equal
>> quality, the digital imager is a horizontal rectangle. Therefore,  
>> with a
>> 1600x1200 imager, horizontal images will be 1600x1066, while vertical
>> images will be only 1200*800 (2/3 images like 24x36 and APS-C). The
>> projected vertical image will be much smaller, with the same dot  
>> size,
>> and will lose more detail.
>
> thank you Patrice. I wasn't aware of the vertical orientation  
> issue. That's certainly food for thought.

Tom,

That's why we specified the pixel dimensions for digital images as we  
did. Assuming a 1024x768 projector, you keep the area of the image  
constant and the area of the photograph constant so as not to  
prejudice judges with the "size matters" business.

http://homepage.mac.com/godders/projection-formats.jpg illustrates a  
2:3 proportion image in H and V orientation fitted into a 1024x768  
(4:3 ratio) display space with equal image area. The photos present  
at the same resolution and quality, regardless of orientation.

This issue is different when displaying prints or projecting  
slides ... you can turn the medium for H and V orientations and use  
the entire display field.

Godfrey

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

Glad to help, Tom.

On Jun 16, 2006, at 10:58 AM, Tom Reese wrote:

>>  From a mechanical perspective, the "professional" quality slide
>> projection system was a disaster.
>
> We've conducted slide contests for years without any problems at  
> all and we'll continue those.

I suspect you have a well maintained projector system and people  
familiar with setting it up and using it. I was shocked at how much  
of a mess the event I described was with regard to the slide projector.

> My question was about adding digital projections to the competition  
> in order to allow more people to participate. Some of our members  
> shoot digitally and don't have the equipment, expertise or $ to  
> produce medium to large prints for our club competitions. I want to  
> afford ALL members the opportunity to participate in the contests  
> from point and shooters on up. Digital projection would provide  
> that opportunity.
>
> I don't want to create another digital projector category because  
> the contests take too long now. It's a fast easy process to switch  
> projectors on the stand and combining slides and digital projection  
> into one contest seems to be a relatively simple thing to do.

The keys to success are:

- choose the right digital projector with good imaging quality for  
the venue you
will be displaying in.
- set up a computer and the projector to work together well.  
Calibrate the
projector if possible. (It's useful to at least have a test image  
with grayscale
step wedge and color bars to make projection time adjustments.)
- pick good software to manage the presentation of the digital images
- test the whole setup before the event to debug it.

If you do this, and you have a well worked out slide projection  
system, it's easy to switch between them.

Godfrey

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Tom Reese]

From: "Patrice LACOUTURE (GMail)" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

> My club organizes every year quite a big contest (as far as a few 
> thousands candidate photos is considered big), and seriously considered 
> digital projection along with slides.
> We discussed with other clubs and decided that we would not venture into 
> this yet, mainly for manpower reasons (reception, sorting etc...).
> 
> However, we've often projected digital in various other occasions.
> 
> What we learned:
> The quality is certainly behind slide projection, in resolution, and 
> specially in color accuracy and stability (compared to a reasonably good 
> slide projector typically available in a club). Maybe it's because the 
> digital projectors we used were bad, but this proved noticeable with 
> various recent models. Regarding color rendition, we did not have the 
> hardware to calibrate the projected image, though.
> 
> The photos are not on the same playing ground not only depending on the 
> support (digi vs. film), but also depending on the image orientation. 
> While a slide can be projected vertically and horizontally with equal 
> quality, the digital imager is a horizontal rectangle. Therefore, with a 
> 1600x1200 imager, horizontal images will be 1600x1066, while vertical 
> images will be only 1200*800 (2/3 images like 24x36 and APS-C). The 
> projected vertical image will be much smaller, with the same dot size, 
> and will lose more detail.

thank you Patrice. I wasn't aware of the vertical orientation issue. That's 
certainly food for thought.

Tom Reese

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Tom Reese]

From: Godfrey DiGiorgi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

>  From a mechanical perspective, the "professional" quality slide  
> projection system was a disaster.

We've conducted slide contests for years without any problems at all and we'll 
continue those. My question was about adding digital projections to the 
competition in order to allow more people to participate. Some of our members 
shoot digitally and don't have the equipment, expertise or $ to produce medium 
to large prints for our club competitions. I want to afford ALL members the 
opportunity to participate in the contests from point and shooters on up. 
Digital projection would provide that opportunity.

I don't want to create another digital projector category because the contests 
take too long now. It's a fast easy process to switch projectors on the stand 
and combining slides and digital projection into one contest seems to be a 
relatively simple thing to do.

Our Federation of Camera Clubs interclub contests just had their first combined 
digital projections and slides contest. I wasn't there but I haven't heard 
anything negative about the experiment.

Thank you for your input.

Tom Reese

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Patrice LACOUTURE (GMail)]

Tom Reese a écrit :
> Hey all,
>
> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going 
> to combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
> provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
> prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
>
> My question from other club members is:
>
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use for 
> the images? Have you had any problems?
>
> thanks for your help.
>
> Tom Reese
>
>   
Hi Tom,

My club organizes every year quite a big contest (as far as a few 
thousands candidate photos is considered big), and seriously considered 
digital projection along with slides.
We discussed with other clubs and decided that we would not venture into 
this yet, mainly for manpower reasons (reception, sorting etc...).

However, we've often projected digital in various other occasions.

What we learned:
The quality is certainly behind slide projection, in resolution, and 
specially in color accuracy and stability (compared to a reasonably good 
slide projector typically available in a club). Maybe it's because the 
digital projectors we used were bad, but this proved noticeable with 
various recent models. Regarding color rendition, we did not have the 
hardware to calibrate the projected image, though.

The photos are not on the same playing ground not only depending on the 
support (digi vs. film), but also depending on the image orientation. 
While a slide can be projected vertically and horizontally with equal 
quality, the digital imager is a horizontal rectangle. Therefore, with a 
1600x1200 imager, horizontal images will be 1600x1066, while vertical 
images will be only 1200*800 (2/3 images like 24x36 and APS-C). The 
projected vertical image will be much smaller, with the same dot size, 
and will lose more detail.

I can see only two workaround to this:
 - configure the projection software or pre-process the images so the 
projection area is square (in this case 1200x1200). Of course this means 
lowering the quality of horizontal images to the same level as vertical 
images.
 - wait until manufacturers make square image projectors just for the 
photo clubs :-)

Projecting the original files and let the projection software do the 
resizing and adding black borders ran smoothly for us. One would expect 
that if the authors knew (or guessed) the projector's resolution, they 
would have the chance to adapt their files to it, especially sharpening 
and the interpolation method if one is preferred. Interpolators used in 
projection software do not always give identical results.

Enjoy your club activity (and the pictures) and take care.

Patrice

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Godfrey DiGiorgi]

On Jun 16, 2006, at 6:46 AM, Tom Reese wrote:

> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints.  
> We're going to combine projected digital images and slides in  
> future contests in order to provide maximum opportunity for  
> participation. Members won't have to make prints to enter contests  
> and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
>
> My question from other club members is:
>
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do  
> you use for the images? Have you had any problems?

At last year's Photo Alliance annual "Slide Slam" in San Francisco at  
the Academy Of Art auditorium, they took submissions for display as  
either slides or JPEG digital images, 10 photos per photographer. 400  
photographs were submitted and set up for viewing.  Each photograph  
was given 10 seconds viewing time on screen. About 260 of the  
submissions were digital images, the rest 35mm slides.

The digital images included scans from prints and transparencies  
(both 35mm and larger format) as well as digital capture images. The  
slides also included slide copies of prints and larger format  
transparencies. A decent digital projector and an Apple PowerBook  
running iPhoto was used to collate and present the digital image  
submissions, the Academy of Art's 'professional' slide projection  
system was used to display the 35mm slides.

 From a mechanical perspective, the "professional" quality slide  
projection system was a disaster. It took three hours to get all the  
slides into the trays. Half the slides were out of focus (causing the  
projector to stop and focus), or focus-shifted during projection, or  
mis-oriented in the projector. At least three/four jams per tray  
slowed down the projection sequences. On screen, the quality of the  
projected slides ranged from beyond horrible to "OK", nothing was  
really superb. The slide copies of prints, particularly B&W prints,  
were absolutely awful, with color prints coming up right behind that.  
Similarly for slide copies of large format transparencies, they ran  
from mostly awful to almost acceptable. It took almost twice the time  
to display 140 slides that it took to display 260 digital images due  
to this mess and the display quality was pretty mediocre at best.

The digital projection system took 30 minutes to setup total. It  
worked flawlessly, aside from one hiccup when iPhoto quit in the  
middle of a sequence. (The laptop used had too little RAM and a slow  
drive, which after 140 or so slides caused crash. The application was  
restarted and the rest of the sequences ran without further error.)  
The digital projector was a 1024x768 resolution, high-end-consumer  
model and did a good reasonable job of rendering. It did a better job  
on saturated color images and low-key B&W work than on high-key B&W  
or color work. Again, the scans were the most mediocre images in  
presentation, with the worst usually being scans of B&W prints ...  
none of them were properly adjusted to display well in the digital  
medium.

Remember, I have no bias for or against film photography. It was  
clear from this experience that digital images in projection with a  
decent projector was a far more reliable display method and took a  
lot less time in setup and unexpected happenstances. Handling and  
projecting slides submitted on the spot for the event was an enormous  
time sink and produced a much poorer representation of the work.

---
Discussing this experience with various friends who attended with me,  
we decided that for our local photo group gatherings we would do the  
following:

- Only two categories for submission would be allowed, digital images  
in JPEG format and original prints.

- For prints, all submissions would be required to be submitted on A3  
Super (13x19") format sized paper or matte board. The submitter could  
choose to format the print to whatever size and proportion they  
wanted as long as the total size of the print fit onto an 13x19 board.

- For digital images, all images must be rendered to fit in a box a  
maximum of 768x768 pixels in size centered into a total field of  
1024x768 pixels, regardless of format proportions. All must be  
rendered to sRGB colorspace and the JPEG files must all include ICC  
tags.

Hope that helps.

Godfrey


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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[George Sinos]

I thought I'd chime in on this one.

I just joined a local club in January.

Evidently, until this year they used a digital projector, a 35mm slide
projector and a third projector for two-and-a-quarter square format
slides.  This is was in addition to prints.

This year the fellow that runs the projector decided that he would
scan the 35mm slides and just bring the digital projector.  However,
the 35mm slides and digital entries were judged separately.  The 2-1/4
entries were also scanned and judged separately but there were only
enough entries to show them on two nights.

At the end of this year they made some changes.  The 2-1/4 format was
dropped for lack of entries.  The 35mm and digital stuff will be
judged together but there are categories for photoshopped and
non-photoshopped stuff.

No one seems to mind.  The projector format is 1024x768 and it seems
to be just fine.

Prints will continue to be judged separately, but the numbers are dwindling.

At the recent end-of-year banquet they put on a multi-media show with
everything being projected in it's native format.  Frankly, the
digital projector put the regular slide projectors to shame.

I'm in my mid-fifties and seem to be one of the younger members of the
group.  Much as the members of this list have varying opinions, the
club members have diverse opinions on digital.  There are several
die-hard film fans.  There seems to be room for everyone's opinons.

The club just bought a laptop computer to drive the projector so they
don't have to depend on members volunteering equipment.

See later, gs


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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Tom Reese]

> > Subject: camera club question re: projected image contests
> > 
> > Hey all,
> > 
> > Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going 
> > to 
> combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
> provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
> prints 
> to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
> > 
> > My question from other club members is:
> > 
> > are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use 
> > for 
> the images? Have you had any problems?
> > 
> > thanks for your help.
> > 
> 
> Are you going to make all the projected images digital by 
> scanning slides?  It's a bit of an uneven playing field, 
> otherwise.

NO! There's no way in hell I'm going to wrestle with that goddamned scanner and 
software. That's why I shoot slides in the first place. I don't want to deal 
with any of that.

Why do you think the playing field will be uneven? In which way?

I fully expect to be at a competitive disadvantage because my slides are what 
they are and the digital images can be altered. The digitally projected images 
at the GFM presentations didn't seem to suffer much compated to the slides that 
were shown.

Tom Reese


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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[mike wilson]

> 
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Tom Reese)
> Date: 2006/06/16 Fri PM 01:46:48 GMT
> To: pdml@pdml.net (Pentax List)
> Subject: camera club question re: projected image contests
> 
> Hey all,
> 
> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going 
> to combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
> provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
> prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
> 
> My question from other club members is:
> 
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use for 
> the images? Have you had any problems?
> 
> thanks for your help.
> 

Are you going to make all the projected images digital by 
scanning slides?  It's a bit of an uneven playing field, 
otherwise.


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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Mark Roberts]

Tom Reese wrote:

>Hey all,
>
>Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going to 
>combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
>provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
>prints to enter contests 
>and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
>
>My question from other club members is:
>
>are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use for 
>the images? Have you had any problems?

At the Grandfather Mountain photo contest we used a projection monitor
with 1200 x 1600 resolution, IIRC. We kept all the images at the
resolution at which they were supplied to us, generally the camera's
full resolution. We used IrfanView to display everything for the
awards presentation and let IrfanView do the resizing for display.
Had no problems whatsoever. In fact, we were kind of surprised at how
smoothly everything went.
 
-- 
Mark Roberts Photography & Multimedia
www.robertstech.com
412-687-2835

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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[Adam Maas]

Tom Reese wrote:
> Hey all,
> 
> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going 
> to combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
> provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
> prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.
> 
> My question from other club members is:
> 
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use for 
> the images? Have you had any problems?
> 
> thanks for your help.
> 
> Tom Reese
> 

Projected digital is difficult due to the extremely low resolution of 
digital projectors. 1024x768 is high-rez for your typical digital projector.

-Adam


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Re: camera club question re: projected image contests

[William Robb]

- Original Message - 
From: "Tom Reese"
Subject: camera club question re: projected image contests


> Hey all,
>
> Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're 
> going to combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in 
> order to provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have 
> to make prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and 
> expense.
>
> My question from other club members is:
>
> are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use 
> for the images? Have you had any problems?

We just project slides. The club I belong to is quite happily ignoring 
digital.

William Robb 



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camera club question re: projected image contests

[Tom Reese]

Hey all,

Our photo club currently has competitions in slides and prints. We're going to 
combine projected digital images and slides in future contests in order to 
provide maximum opportunity for participation. Members won't have to make 
prints to enter contests and they'll save a lot of aggravation and expense.

My question from other club members is:

are you having contests with projected images? What resolution do you use for 
the images? Have you had any problems?

thanks for your help.

Tom Reese

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