Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
Jerry, CSP did use divisions into three, so trichotomies do belong to his philosophy. Only in his latest phase he devoted himself to developing triadicity as his key concept in his theory of the Categories. So, trichotomies of signs, such as icon, index, symbol etc. are OK. But only for the limited purposes of Secondness. For these he used a three-partite graph. (Which does not belong to the set of special marks that I can use here). Note also, that the existential graphs (the only he developed to his full satisfaction) presents his logical graphs ONLY from the viewpoint of Secondness. There are intermediate logical steps needed to proceed into true triadicity. I have not found a clear presentation of these steps in the now available writings of CSP. I'll leave others to respond for their own comments. Best, Kirsti Jerry LR Chandler kirjoitti 2.2.2017 23:07: List, Kirsti, Ben: I am a bit puzzled by these responses, which appear strange to my way of thinking. By the standards of some, I am not a “Peircer”. My aim is bio-medical reserch on specific quantitative issues; the writings of CSP are studied in order to contribute to my understanding of the logics of the (bio-medical) sciences. I attempt to place CSP’s doctrines in context. Thus, I interpret CSP’s writings and terminology in terms of early 21 st Century biological science / mathematics; while paying do heed to the status of late 19 th Century status of language usage, science and mathematics. First, my post was in reference to the December, 2015 posts of Franklin and Frederik and the discussion thread at that point. The meaning of the CSP-coined term “dicisign” was the issue on my mind. It was brought to my mind by recent progress on the diagrammatic logic (I thank Frederik for his inspection of this topic and especially for the introduction to the book by Greaves, The Philosophical Status of Diagrams, which is an original and intensive inquiry into CSP’s diagrammatic logic.) Secondly, it is of critical importance to examine the precedence for CSP’s usage of terms related to the count of the number “three”. From the Apple Dictionary: triad |ˈtrīˌad| noun1 a group or set of three connected people or things: the triad of medication, diet, and exercise are necessary in diabetes care.• a chord of three musical notes, consisting of a given note with the third and fifth above it.• a Welsh form of literary composition with an arrangement of subjects or statements in groups of three.2 (also Triad) a secret society originating in China, typically involved in organized crime.• a member of a triad.DERIVATIVES triadic |trīˈadik| adjectivetriad ( sense 1)ORIGIN mid 16th century: from French triade, or via late Latin from Greek trias, triad-, from treis ‘three.’ Within this context, I was using the term “triad” in the sense of three terms of CSP, two of his own creation. In this context, in contrast to the usage by Frederik (as best as I recall), I was using the three terms to acknowledge the modal sequence of _inferences_. That is, CSP in his diagram of the eight terms that infer the ninth term, “argument” includes these three terms as a linear sequence of inferences. I view the eight terms as necessary (in CSP’s mindset) to construct an an argument consistent with his analysis of natural sorts and kinds (sinsigns). My post merely recommended a book by a philosopher on the topic of mereology, the study of part - whole illations. CSP is not mentioned in the book in either the author index or the term index. If one seeks to translate the In CSP meta-speak, a natural kind (sinsign) is composed of parts which can be indexed and these parts can then be composed into sentences (dicisigns) that are then composed into arguments which are either true, false or indetermine. (For an alternative (physical) worldview, R. Carnap’s book, The Logical Structure of the World” (1930s). The sentence, "The union of units unifies the unity” is an abstract statement about collections of ‘sinsigns” that can be decomposed into “indexes" and unified by an argument to generate “legisigns." I hope this clarifies my usage and places the reference to the 2015 posts in context of triadicity in the 21 st Century. I believe that CSP’s logic goes deep into sublative structures of natural sorts and kinds. Unfortunately, the depth of CSP’s scientific logic is seldom recognized. Cheers Jerry On Feb 1, 2017, at 5:02 PM, Benjamin Udellwrote: Kirsti, Jerry, list, Kirsti is generally correct. I remember years ago at peirce-l when Orliaguet made the same point (with superfluous sarcasm) to Kirsti. He quoted a passage by Peirce that required understanding the term "triad" to refer to the three correlates in triadic action with one another — sign-object-interpretant — and not to any other trichotomy (three-way division); otherwise the passage by Peirce became nonsense. Still it should be noted that on some occasions Peirce used the term
Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
Gary, Kirsti, list, You wrote, "I've been a little "out of it" post surgery, but did someone earlier quote that passage? In any event, I can't find it in this thread." I was referring to a post by Orliaguet from many years ago, but nobody else quoted it in the thread. I tried a few years ago to find it, and I just spent an hour trying to find it. I think I've found it now but it was a response not to Kirsti but to Inna Semetsky. I don't know how I confused Kirsti with Inna, they're quite different. He also argued with Kirsti around the same time, so I guess I just got mixed up years later. (I found that in 2006 I mentioned Orliaguet's post and added that it was "gratuitously passionate" without saying to whom it was a response http://lyris.ttu.edu/read/archive?id=222334 ). Here's Orliaguet's post from 2004: http://lyris.ttu.edu/read/messages?id=89853#89853 Re: Off list Re: Peirce a dualist? 2004-03-21 17:29:30 Orliaguet> I'll quote the pertinent part. In it Orliaguet systematically interchanges "triad" and "trichotomy" in quotes from Peirce, in order to show that the terms are not well interchangeable. Note that Orliaguet adds "[sic]" when he does it. (I don't quite get his quip about special relativity.) [===Begin quote Orliaguet===] OK, but the words mean different things. how does the following make sense to you? (I replaced 'pair' with 'dichotomy' to agree with special relativity) "... Signs are divisible by three triads [sic]; first, according as the sign in itself is a mere quality, is an actual existent, or is a general law; ..." " ... According to the third triad [sic], a Sign may be termed a Rheme, a Dicisign or Dicent Sign (that is, a proposition or quasi-proposition), or an Argument." "Trichotomic relations [sic] are in three ways divisible by triads [sic], according as the First, the Second, or the Third Correlate, respectively, is a mere possibility, an actual existent, or a law. "According to the second triad [sic], a Sign may be termed an Icon, an Index, or a Symbol." "Every physical force reacts between a dichotomy [sic] of particles, either of which may serve as an index of the other. On the other hand, we shall find that every intellectual operation involves a trichotomy [sic] of symbols." "But a trichotomy [sic] always involves three dichotomies [sic] and three monads; and a dichotomy [sic] involves two monads." [===End quote===] The only case where Orliaguet's change seems to make more sense than Orliaguet intended is "On the other hand, we shall find that every intellectual operation involves a trichotomy [sic] of symbols." Peirce actually wrote "triad of symbols". I would expect "trichotomy" there (term, proposition, argument, or rheme, dicisign, argument). The Peirce quote is from CP 2.300. CP 2.297-302 are from Chapter 2 of "The Art of Reasoning" circa 1895. Finding Peirce's further discussion of symbols in "The Art of Reasoning" in CP would take some work, if it's there at all. You wrote, "I agree with Kirsti that the trio "sinsign, index and dicisign" is NOT a trichotomy /because/ it does not involve a categorially triadic relation." Kirsti said that they _are_ a trichotomy: [Quote Kirsti] I feel a need to point out that "sinsign, index and dicisign" presents a trichotomy of signs. Not a triad, but a t[h]ree-part division, a classification, if you wish. All triads and triadicity involve mediation. Triadicity also involves meaning, not just signs. [End quote] I hadn't noticed that Kirsti said "sinsign, index and dicisign". You're right, it's not a trichotomy in the strong Peircean sense, but it's not quite a non-Peircean trichotomy either. It contains (in terms of the three-trichotomy system, and borrowing the italicized terms from Liszka): 1. the second division from the _/presentative/_ trichotomy (sign's relation to itself), 2. the second division from the _/representative/_ trichotomy (sign to object), and 3. the second division from the _/interpretative/_ trichotomy (sign to interpretant). (Borrowing from Liszka in "A Synopsis of A General Introduction to the Semeiotic of Charles S. Peirce") http://web.archive.org/web/20030216133540/http://hosting.uaa.alaska.edu/afjjl/LinkedDocuments/LiszkaSynopsisPeirce.htm Of course that points to the idea that sign-object-interpretant is itself a First-Second-Third threefold, and some, such as Edwina and Jon A., disagree. You wrote "However it may appear in /that/ passage, I do not believe that this holds for semeiotic "generally" (see, for example,"A Guess at the Riddle," CP 1.369-372)." Yes, sometimes, as in "A Guess at the Riddle," Peirce uses the term "triad" to refer to a trichotomy that is not a triad of the three correlates of semiotic action. I was just saying that it's clearer to reserve "triad" for the semiotic triad, the correlates united in triadic action, and
Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
Kirsti, Jerry, list, Kirsti is generally correct. I remember years ago at peirce-l when Orliaguet made the same point (with superfluous sarcasm) to Kirsti. He quoted a passage by Peirce that required understanding the term "triad" to refer to the three correlates in triadic action with one another — sign-object-interpretant — and not to any other trichotomy (three-way division); otherwise the passage by Peirce became nonsense. Still it should be noted that on some occasions Peirce used the term "triad" to refer to a merely classificatory trichotomy. But I think that, in Peircean contexts, Kirsti's point is not only supported in Peirce but also promotes much more clarity than does treating "triad" and "trichotomy" as interchangeable. Over the years commenters at peirce-l have tended to adhere to the distinction and FWIW I always stick to it. Best, Ben On 1/31/2017 5:22 PM, kirst...@saunalahti.fi wrote: Hi, I feel a need to point out that "sinsign, index and dicisign" presents a trichotomy of signs. Not a triad, but a tree-part division, a classification, if you wish. All triads and triadicity involve mediation. Triadicity also involves meaning, not just signs. Kirsti Jerry LR Chandler kirjoitti 26.1.2017 21:07: List, Franklin, Frederik: The OUP book, THE STRUCTURE OF OBJECTS by Kathrin Koslicki (2008) addresses some of the philosophy that appears to be difficult to understand. More particularly, it illuminates the triad, sinsign, index and dicisign in relation to parts of the whole, the illation between the identity, the individual and the particular that also considers the chemical perspective. Unfortunately, the intertwining of the meaning of this triad with diagrammatic logic as described by Mark Greaves in “The Philosophical Status of Diagrams” is beyond the scope of the logic presented. Cheers Jerry On Dec 12, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Franklin Ransomwrote: Jerry, list, Well, I'm glad that someone agrees with me, as far as the statement went. Jerry, I think that you raise some good questions. Though, I must admit I'm not entirely sure what a couple of your terms mean, such as 'coupling' and 'grammar'. As for 'unit', I'll guess you mean something like what the original meaning of 'atom' meant, as something basic and indivisible from which other, more complex things can be built up out of. I've decided to answer the questions in the order reverse to the order in which they were presented. Do you consider this part - whole coupling to be "mereological in character"? I'm not sure what that means, but since it's a part-whole relation, and mereology is a study concerned with such relations, it would seem almost tautological that it is "mereological in character". But there are different and competing theories in mereology, and I don't want to be taken as supporting any one of them specifically. Is smoke a unit? Is a precept a unit? I take it you meant "percept", not precept. I would say it depends on the context; in one context, we could take percepts as our basic elements, or units, while in another context of analysis we might try to break it down more, as presumably someone in experimental psychology might try to break down sense impressions to the physical operations of the body and the thing experienced. Similarly with smoke, if we just wanted to talk about the matter in terms of commonly understood objects and signs, then it could be considered a unit; but obviously, the chemist could try to break it down more into the specific analysis of gases, and down to the atoms, of which the smoke is composed, and so on further to particles and such. If "whole work of understanding." implies a coupling of external events with internal processes, then what is the nature of the grammar the generates the coupling of the parts of the whole? This is where the meaning of 'coupling' worries me, but I'll suppose it's something like correspondence. Also not sure what grammar is supposed to be in this context. By "whole work of understanding", I meant the introduction of a concept, whether in perceptual judgment or in an abduction, for explaining the phenomenon (percept); which concept, when analyzed into possible further interactions with the object of the percept, and then put to experimental test in practical conduct, proves helpful for interacting with the object of the percept. So the whole process of semiosis, up to the following out of a scientific inquiry into the object, may be required to grasp the (whole) object. Put in terms of correspondence, I suppose that the fact that the object responds to our interactions in the way we predict is what reveals that there is a correspondence between our concept of the object and the object as it is in itself. I'm not sure how to relate that to "the nature of the grammar the generates the coupling of the parts of the whole". Part and whole here were originally about the object as immediate and
Re: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
List, Franklin, Frederik: The OUP book, The Structure of Objects by Kathrin Koslicki (2008) addresses some of the philosophy that appears to be difficult to understand. More particularly, it illuminates the triad, sinsign, index and dicisign in relation to parts of the whole, the illation between the identity, the individual and the particular that also considers the chemical perspective. Unfortunately, the intertwining of the meaning of this triad with diagrammatic logic as described by Mark Greaves in “The Philosophical Status of Diagrams” is beyond the scope of the logic presented. Cheers Jerry > On Dec 12, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Franklin Ransom> wrote: > > Jerry, list, > > Well, I'm glad that someone agrees with me, as far as the statement went. > > Jerry, I think that you raise some good questions. Though, I must admit I'm > not entirely sure what a couple of your terms mean, such as 'coupling' and > 'grammar'. As for 'unit', I'll guess you mean something like what the > original meaning of 'atom' meant, as something basic and indivisible from > which other, more complex things can be built up out of. > > I've decided to answer the questions in the order reverse to the order in > which they were presented. > > Do you consider this part - whole coupling to be "mereological in character"? > > I'm not sure what that means, but since it's a part-whole relation, and > mereology is a study concerned with such relations, it would seem almost > tautological that it is "mereological in character". But there are different > and competing theories in mereology, and I don't want to be taken as > supporting any one of them specifically. > > Is smoke a unit? Is a precept a unit? > > I take it you meant "percept", not precept. I would say it depends on the > context; in one context, we could take percepts as our basic elements, or > units, while in another context of analysis we might try to break it down > more, as presumably someone in experimental psychology might try to break > down sense impressions to the physical operations of the body and the thing > experienced. Similarly with smoke, if we just wanted to talk about the matter > in terms of commonly understood objects and signs, then it could be > considered a unit; but obviously, the chemist could try to break it down more > into the specific analysis of gases, and down to the atoms, of which the > smoke is composed, and so on further to particles and such. > > If "whole work of understanding." implies a coupling of external events with > internal processes, then what is the nature of the grammar the generates the > coupling of the parts of the whole? > > This is where the meaning of 'coupling' worries me, but I'll suppose it's > something like correspondence. Also not sure what grammar is supposed to be > in this context. By "whole work of understanding", I meant the introduction > of a concept, whether in perceptual judgment or in an abduction, for > explaining the phenomenon (percept); which concept, when analyzed into > possible further interactions with the object of the percept, and then put to > experimental test in practical conduct, proves helpful for interacting with > the object of the percept. So the whole process of semiosis, up to the > following out of a scientific inquiry into the object, may be required to > grasp the (whole) object. Put in terms of correspondence, I suppose that the > fact that the object responds to our interactions in the way we predict is > what reveals that there is a correspondence between our concept of the object > and the object as it is in itself. > > I'm not sure how to relate that to "the nature of the grammar the generates > the coupling of the parts of the whole". Part and whole here were originally > about the object as immediate and the object as dynamical, but relating what > is going on between external events and internal processes (i.e., > perception?), is a different kind of relating. Perhaps (and this is simply a > suggestion), we might think of there being the real object, which has a part > of it involved in perception, and there being the mind, which has a part of > it involved in perception, and these two (the real object and the mind) are > themselves parts of a semiosis, and so the 'grammar' that would ultimately be > appropriate would be that offered by semiotic. > > What is the nature of the coupling between the smoke and the "whole" of the > experience? > > Hmm, that's a good question. Partly it depends upon what is meant by > experience, and whether one subscribes to the doctrine of immediate > perception. If one includes perception and conception, and what is perceived > and conceived, then smoke would be a part of the experience; and with respect > to perception, it would be a part of smoke, but with respect to conception it > would be the whole of the smoke. But, it is good to
Re: RE: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
Jerry, list, Jerry, you wrote: The terms "coupling" and "grammar" are used in the senses of CSP. Coupling > referring to CSP's paper on the logic of Copula. Grammar in the typical > sense that that one may find in the classical text by Otto Jesperson, *The > Philosophy of Grammar *or in CSP's writings*.* Ah, coupling in the sense of the copula. That is very helpful, thank you. As for grammar, it is clear that you mean speculative grammar then, though this has not always been clear to me in your posts using the term. Of course speculative grammar is not the same thing as syntax, since a division between syntax and semantics does not fit neatly in Peirce's speculative grammar. This is largely because of the idea of the sign as a triadic relation, which is not simply a syntactical structure to which a semantics can be applied, but rather the very structure of meaning. The reason I have been confused is that it has sometimes seemed to me that you meant syntax rather than speculative grammar. "Unit" being a term of one-ness, such as the 7 basic units of physics > (mass, distance, time, temperature, light, electricity and "mole". Or > integers as numbers. Equally applicable to the basic units of chemistry (92 > different logical structures with names) and biology (cells, etc). Take > you pick for meaningfulness of the term for you and for your personal > philosophy. Sounds good. I don't see this as necessarily in disagreement with what I said, so I am content to leave it at that. But, you wrote: > Going beyond the part of the real that we perceive, and grasping it as a > whole, requires the whole work of understanding. > This is what motivated my questions: > In what sense are your using "whole-ness" where the suffix -ness infers > changing an adjective into a noun -in the grammatical sense of the > wholeness of the smoke or the sense of the wholeness of interpretation? Well, I did not use the term "whole-ness", so I suppose you meant that when I use the term "whole", in one case it at least really means "whole-ness". For one, I don't see the whole of the smoke as something grammatical, but ontological. The whole of interpretation, on the other hand, will be semiotic(al?), which will include the grammatical. I think this answers your question, though it suggests that the idea of the whole is different in kind in the case of smoke from what it is in the case of interpretation. I am not prepared at this time to articulate the differences in these kinds of wholes, because I have an intellectual project I am going to be devoting myself to for a few months. Is it correct to read this paragraph that for the term "smoke", one can > assign an arbitrary number of different percepts? And hence, the each > different percept would lead to a different perceptual judgment? In other > words, in this specific case, the premises implicit to the scenario can > lead to an arbitrary number of arguments that are consistent with symbols > and legisigns? Much hinges on the sense of 'arbitrary' here. If by arbitrary, you mean in the sense of judgement as in arbitration, there is some truth to that. If by arbitrary you mean willy-nilly or at random, then no. Consider that there are different experiences we have of smoke. Suppose one had an experience of smoke three days ago when sitting by a fireplace. Now suppose one has an experience of smoke right now from someone smoking a cigarette nearby. These are two different experiences, with different percepts, resulting in different perceptual judgments. But the term 'smoke' is still applied to both. If we wanted to treat of specific experiences of smoke such that we could classify different kinds of smoke, there would be a need for arbitrating which percepts of smoke had to with which specific kinds of smoke. This would help in identifying different chemical components, which later could help us to identify new experiences of smoke as being of one kind or another, and so understand what the smoke is composed of when it is experienced, and thus of how the smoke is related to other percepts and what might be expected in future percepts in the vicinity of the smoke. I'm not altogether sure I understood what the question was driving at though, so I can only hope this helps clarify my way of thinking about it. What do you wish to express when you think of "correspondence" in this > context of yoking? Well, I thought that I had just made that clear. Allow me to quote myself from the passage to which you responded with this question, which I think answers the question: "Put in terms of correspondence, I suppose that the fact that the object responds to our interactions in the way we predict is what reveals that there is a correspondence between our concept of the object and the object as it is in itself." Correspondence, then, is just the fact that the object responds in the way we predict it will, when we interact with it. If it does not, then our idea of the object
Re: RE: [PEIRCE-L] signs, correlates, and triadic relations - The union of the units unifies the unity
(This post was found in my email "Draft Box”. This response was drafted on Dec. 13 th, 2015. Franklin, Matt, List: Some short responses to your concerns and further questions are raised. On Dec 12, 2015, at 4:10 PM, Franklin Ransom wrote: > Jerry, list, > > Well, I'm glad that someone agrees with me, as far as the statement went. > > Jerry, I think that you raise some good questions. Though, I must admit I'm > not entirely sure what a couple of your terms mean, such as 'coupling' and > 'grammar'. As for 'unit', I'll guess you mean something like what the > original meaning of 'atom' meant, as something basic and indivisible from > which other, more complex things can be built up out of. The terms "coupling" and "grammar" are used in the senses of CSP. Coupling referring to CSP's paper on the logic of Copula. Grammar in the typical sense that that one may find in the classical text by Otto Jesperson, The Philosophy of Grammar or in CSP's writings. "Unit" being a term of one-ness, such as the 7 basic units of physics (mass, distance, time, temperature, light, electricity and "mole". Or integers as numbers. Equally applicable to the basic units of chemistry (92 different logical structures with names) and biology (cells, etc). Take you pick for meaningfulness of the term for you and for your personal philosophy. > > I've decided to answer the questions in the order reverse to the order in > which they were presented. > > Do you consider this part - whole coupling to be "mereological in character"? > > I'm not sure what that means, but since it's a part-whole relation, and > mereology is a study concerned with such relations, it would seem almost > tautological that it is "mereological in character". But there are different > and competing theories in mereology, and I don't want to be taken as > supporting any one of them specifically. But, you wrote: Going beyond the part of the real that we perceive, and grasping it as a whole, requires the whole work of understanding. This is what motivated my questions: In what sense are your using "whole-ness" where the suffix -ness infers changing an adjective into a noun -in the grammatical sense of the wholeness of the smoke or the sense of the wholeness of interpretation? > > Is smoke a unit? Is a precept a unit? > > I take it you meant "percept", not precept. I would say it depends on the > context; in one context, we could take percepts as our basic elements, or > units, while in another context of analysis we might try to break it down > more, as presumably someone in experimental psychology might try to break > down sense impressions to the physical operations of the body and the thing > experienced. Similarly with smoke, if we just wanted to talk about the matter > in terms of commonly understood objects and signs, then it could be > considered a unit; but obviously, the chemist could try to break it down more > into the specific analysis of gases, and down to the atoms, of which the > smoke is composed, and so on further to particles and such. Is it correct to read this paragraph that for the term "smoke", one can assign an arbitrary number of different percepts? And hence, the each different percept would lead to a different perceptual judgment? In other words, in this specific case, the premises implicit to the scenario can lead to an arbitrary number of arguments that are consistent with symbols and legisigns? > > If "whole work of understanding." implies a coupling of external events with > internal processes, then what is the nature of the grammar the generates the > coupling of the parts of the whole? > > This is where the meaning of 'coupling' worries me, but I'll suppose it's > something like correspondence. Also not sure what grammar is supposed to be > in this context. By "whole work of understanding", I meant the introduction > of a concept, whether in perceptual judgment or in an abduction, for > explaining the phenomenon (percept); which concept, when analyzed into > possible further interactions with the object of the percept, and then put to > experimental test in practical conduct, proves helpful for interacting with > the object of the percept. So the whole process of semiosis, up to the > following out of a scientific inquiry into the object, may be required to > grasp the (whole) object. Put in terms of correspondence, I suppose that the > fact that the object responds to our interactions in the way we predict is > what reveals that there is a correspondence between our concept of the object > and the object as it is in itself. The word "coupling" comes from the Gk / L. roots. It requires a minimum of a pair to be yoked together. (But not an ordered pair as in category theory or set theory.) What do you wish to express when you think of "correspondence" in this context of yoking? > > I'm not sure how to relate that to "the nature of the grammar the generates >