RE: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
labor-religion coalition? interfaith commitee? people of faith net work? what are these to be exact? what have they got to with labor rights, sweatshops and social justice issues? Mine N.B. These are the components of the U.S. left that actually do useful things, talk to real people in a comprehensible language, promote democratic values, and promote realistic reforms, rather than indulge themselves in Leninoid babble. cheers, mbs Hoover wrote: > > Organized by the NYU Program in American Studies > > >> > Co-sponsors: United Students against Sweatshops and the Workers Rights >> > Consortium, the National Labor Committee, UNITE, UAW and the NYU Graduate >> > Student Organizing Committee, People of Faith Network, United Steelworkers >> > of America, Scholars, Artists and Writers for Social Justice, Local > >> 3882-AFT, Global Exchange, the Harvard Trade Union Program, Campaign for > >> Labor Rights, New York State Labor-Religion Coalition, Massachusetts > >> Interfaith Committee for Worker Justice, Direct Action Network at NYU, >
Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: >labor-religion coalition? interfaith commitee? people of faith net work? >what are these to be exact? what have they got to with labor rights, >sweatshops and social justice issues? I'm no fan of religion, and I'm guessing you're not either, but there's no doubt that religious people do lots of extremely admirable labor, human rights, and antiwar work. So they've got lots to do with the issues you seem to think they don't. Doug
Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
Mine, Have you heard of liberation theology to begin with? Steve On Wed, 29 Mar 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > labor-religion coalition? interfaith commitee? people of faith net work? > what are these to be exact? what have they got to with labor rights, > sweatshops and social justice issues? > > > Mine > > Hoover wrote: > > > > Organized by the NYU Program in American Studies > > > > >> > Co-sponsors: United Students against Sweatshops and the Workers > Rights > >> > Consortium, the National Labor Committee, UNITE, UAW and the NYU > Graduate > >> > Student Organizing Committee, People of Faith Network, United > Steelworkers > >> > of America, Scholars, Artists and Writers for Social Justice, Local > > >> 3882-AFT, Global Exchange, the Harvard Trade Union Program, Campaign > for > > >> Labor Rights, New York State Labor-Religion Coalition, Massachusetts > > >> Interfaith Committee for Worker Justice, Direct Action Network at > NYU, > > > >
Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
Doug Henwood wrote: > [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > > >labor-religion coalition? interfaith commitee? people of faith net work? > >what are these to be exact? what have they got to with labor rights, > >sweatshops and social justice issues? > > I'm no fan of religion, and I'm guessing you're not either, but > there's no doubt that religious people do lots of extremely admirable > labor, human rights, and antiwar work. So they've got lots to do with > the issues you seem to think they don't. Without Roman Catholics there would have been no significant Central America solidarity work in my area during the '80s. Without Roman Catholics and Mennonites we would have had a far weaker Anti-Gulf War Coalition. The most dependable comrades Jan and I have locally are three Roman Catholics. And see Lenin's comments on Father Gopin and the importance of there being thousands more like Father Gopin. (He called Trotsky a blowhard for not seeing that importance.) Carrol
Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
At 11:51 PM 3/29/00 -0500, you wrote: >[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > >>labor-religion coalition? interfaith commitee? people of faith net work? >>what are these to be exact? what have they got to with labor rights, >>sweatshops and social justice issues? > >I'm no fan of religion, and I'm guessing you're not either, but there's no >doubt that religious people do lots of extremely admirable labor, human >rights, and antiwar work. So they've got lots to do with the issues you >seem to think they don't. working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), I know that religious folks do a lot of good work (and it would be truly groovy if the CATHOLIC WORKER leader Dorothy Day became a saint, almost making up for the on-going move to make Fr. Junipero Serra one) on these things. But last time I heard, the most active student group on campus called itself "pro-life" (i.e. anti-abortion rights). But that suggests that religious people are like non-religious people, i.e., as a group they include some good people and some bad, have some good causes and some bad, etc. (CATHOLIC WORKER is a truly radical but pretty fundamentalist Catholic labor group. Fr. Serra was bloody-handed fellow who helped the Spaniards convert the American Indians with swords and guns.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
it is indeed true that religious folks do a lot of "useful" things. the last time I was in Turkey, they were subjecting girls to virginity tests in local high schools in case there was a complaint from their parents about the sexual dignity of their daughters.. in other times, they created a transportation system in municipalities, somewhere in remote places of Anotolia, that was gender segregated. Their justification was the protection of women's bodies from male contact. very humanitarian aid infact! are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender issues? just crucious to know... Mine Jim Devine wrote: >working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), >I >know that religious folks do a lot of good work
RE: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
And in the olden days of the 1960's, the Quakers were pretty important in the draft resistance and anti-Vietnam war action. mbs > > I'm no fan of religion, and I'm guessing you're not either, but > there's no doubt that religious people do lots of extremely admirable > labor, human rights, and antiwar work. So they've got lots to do with > the issues you seem to think they don't. Without Roman Catholics there would have been no significant Central America solidarity work in my area during the '80s. Without Roman Catholics and Mennonites we would have had a far weaker Anti-Gulf War Coalition. The most dependable comrades Jan and I have locally are three Roman Catholics. And see Lenin's comments on Father Gopin and the importance of there being thousands more like Father Gopin. (He called Trotsky a blowhard for not seeing that importance.) Carrol
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
From: "Jim Devine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > (and it would be truly > groovy if the CATHOLIC WORKER leader Dorothy Day became a saint, almost > making up for the on-going move to make Fr. Junipero Serra one) Vatican to Weigh Sainthood For Reformer Dorothy Day By Hanna Rosin Washington Post Staff Writer Friday, March 17, 2000; Page A03 Catholic Worker newspaper, but famously said, "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint." The Vatican yesterday agreed to consider whether to grant sainthood to Dorothy Day, heroine of the Catholic left, journalist, anarchist and pacifist, ignoring objections from church traditionalists and possibly Day's own wishes. Many traditionalists think Day's radical past makes her an unsuitable role model. But many of her activist friends resist it for the opposite reason. To them, canonization will whitewash her life and turn it into a tidy inspirational story. "I want to let you know how sick your canonization moves are," her granddaughter Maggie Hennessy wrote to the Catholic magazine that first proposed it in 1987. "You have completely missed her beliefs and what she lived for if you are trying to stick her on a pedestal." Yesterday, a fellow activist, Daniel Berrigan, seemed resigned. "I guess it's a fait accompli," he said. "The dead don't ever own the dead." Day herself resisted the honor. Nervous about having her life examined, she burned all copies of her novel "Eleventh Hour," a fictionalized account of her early life, including her abortion and sexual adventures. When asked about sainthood directly, she famously quipped: "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint." http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/WPlate/2000-03/17/098l-031700-idx.html
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
On Thu, 30 Mar 2000 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender > issues? just crucious to know... > > Mine Steve: The answer to that is, obviously, yes. Many Catholic lefties are pro-choice,...all one has to do is read their literature. They might not like abortion, be against it in their own personal situation, but they won't support anti-choice legislation. And they will also show up at pro-choice activities, which is probably more than you would do. This thread is looking more and more like a spam thread. Steve
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
I don't see the need to stereotype religious people. In my experience their political believes and practice varies as much as those of non-believers. Yes there are religious fascists, but there are atheists fascists as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > it is indeed true that religious folks do a lot of "useful" things. the > last time I was in Turkey, they were subjecting girls to virginity tests > in local high schools in case there was a complaint from their parents > about the sexual dignity of their daughters.. > > in other times, they created a transportation system in municipalities, > somewhere in remote places of Anotolia, that was gender segregated. Their > justification was the protection of women's bodies from male contact. > > very humanitarian aid infact! > > are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender > issues? just crucious to know... > > Mine > > Jim Devine wrote: > >working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), > >I > >know that religious folks do a lot of good work -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
Rod, the issue is about neither religious fascism nor about atheist fascism. where is that I am stereotyping for my sake? can you show spefically, please? I condemened both in several other posts. in fact, racial interpretations of bible *exactly* fits in socio-biological arguments for the superiority of races and the biological weakness of the female sex. bible has many racist connotations similar to that of socio-bilogical assumptions. I guarantee you that many of my religious students (whetever their religion is) would have no less problems with Murray, Rushton and Lynn than my secular students. This is a systemic and dangerous problem. let's face it. this relationship exists whether we like it or not. in the pre-civil war era, in the US, drunkness and adultery was subject to capital punishment in the protestant prutanist based connecticut and new england laws. Many of the US secular laws still preserve this prutanist mentality. Thomas Jefferson, the most secularists of all secularists, was a slave owner. now will you tell me that I am stereotyping fascists? I don't see how is your argument fits in the context here. furthermore, how would you guarantee that religions do not stereotype each other? US foreign policy interests, shaped by both reactionary conservatives and liberal rulings classes (protestant and catholic) in the congress, have always been preoccupied with creating a myth of the "other", Islam, let's say, to perpetuate their own interests in the Middle East. These people do not give a *damn* about human rigghts violations there, neither by the authoritarian states nor by islamists. They created the monster to set off soviet socialism by oppressing leftist movements; now, soviet communism is gone, and they are trying to maintain Islam they created through military aid to the region unless it does not pose a major threat to US hegemonic interests. furthermore, why is that this obsession with defending christianity (or any religion) or constantly rationalizing or apologizing it! the more we apologize it, the more we come closer to obscuring religion's racist and sexist dimensions. okey there are progressive religious people around, and that is fine although I have not specifically seen their claims yet. My problem is a fundemental problem with religion, not a problem with those people. moreover, the below passage criticizes the fascist monitoring of women's rights and their sexuality. isn't it obvious that I am condeming it? Mine -- Forwarded message -- Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2000 21:52:14 -0500 From: Rod Hay <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: [PEN-L:17586] Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd) I don't see the need to stereotype religious people. In my experience their political believes and practice varies as much as those of non-believers. Yes there are religious fascists, but there are atheists fascists as well. [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > it is indeed true that religious folks do a lot of "useful" things. the > last time I was in Turkey, they were subjecting girls to virginity tests > in local high schools in case there was a complaint from their parents > about the sexual dignity of their daughters.. > > in other times, they created a transportation system in municipalities, > somewhere in remote places of Anotolia, that was gender segregated. Their > justification was the protection of women's bodies from male contact. > > very humanitarian aid infact! > > are your catholic folks progressive enough when it comes to gender > issues? just crucious to know... > > Mine > > Jim Devine wrote: > >working at a religious-oriented institution (a Jesuit-Marymount college), > >I > >know that religious folks do a lot of good work -- Rod Hay [EMAIL PROTECTED] The History of Economic Thought Archive http://socserv2.mcmaster.ca/~econ/ugcm/3ll3/index.html Batoche Books http://Batoche.co-ltd.net/ 52 Eby Street South Kitchener, Ontario N2G 3L1 Canada
Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8)(fwd)
>>> Stephen E Philion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> 03/30/00 08:05PM >>>This thread is looking >more and more like a spam thread. CB: Sounds like a first step to intellectual execution. CB
Re: Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
>When asked about sainthood directly, [Dorothy Day] famously quipped: "Don't trivialize me by trying to make me a saint."< and Lenin said he didn't want any statues of him built, since they attract pigeons. No-one has any control over what happens after they die. My point, BTW, was that it would be nice to have a few thousand saints to counteract the dire influence of Junipero Serra. For example, Fr. Bartelemo (sp?) de las Casas, the defender of the American Indians against the Spaniards, would be a good one. But it's really up to the Catholics (of which I am not one) to decide these things. Thus, I used the flippant phrase, "truly groovy." (Unfortunately, it's not up to "the Catholics" to decide such things, since it's only a small minority at the top of the hierarchy that does so. But again, that's an issue for the Catholics to grapple with.) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] & http://liberalarts.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Re: Re: Re: NYU Conference Schedule (April 7-8) (fwd)
I asked you to stop this thread off list. This is your last warning, Mine. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Further excuses of religion: RE: NYU Conference Schedule(April 7-8) (fwd)
Max, I take your comments as misunderstanding me. I simply could not see the relationship between "religion" and "socialism" in some theoretical sense. This has nothing to do with rejecting "democratic values" or bashing religious people in favor of democracy (whatever it is). If I offended your religious feelings, I feel sorry. Since you are not explaining this relationship in a convincing manner, I think that my question is still fair and legitimate. This is a fundemental question, not a rhetorical one. In my view, religion is an "obscurantism" on the part of the ruling classes to perpetuate their hegemony and to deceive the working classes or other marginalized groups in society for their own interests and capitalist agendas. Religion is an instrument of powerlessness not a protest; it disempowers people, not liberates them. It is sad that the US left, whatever it means, still subscribes to the notion of compatibility of religion and socialism. If Mr. jesus can save us from capitalism, let him save us! Religion can be used for strategic reasons, but it can not be a real strategy in the long run. People give examples from Roman catholics and their progressive role in anti-gulf war coalition. I am happy to hear this since I was not here during the Gulf war, but I am pretty much sure that this can not be generalized to overall catholics who have reactionary agendas and imperialist foreign policy goals as part of the ruling class in the US, both liberal and conservative. I still would like to see their specific claims though, before taking their opposition to war at face value. Well, radical islamists were perfectly anti-war too. What makes them differ from roman catholics in principle if religion is the issue here? At the time of gulf war, we, turkish socialist, feminist, kurdish, and other progressive students, did *not* ally with them even for strategic reasons, but still protested the war. If people tell me catholicism is essentially different from Islam, and that it allows possible alliences between religion and left that Islam lacks (thanks to western democracies), i never buy this argument simply becasue it is fundamentally eurocentric and culturalist. Futhermore, being anti-gulf war does not guarantee a free ticket to be progressive. If you visit the most "prestigious" liberterian (right) web sites, the first thing you will be suprised to see is "anti-war" slogans. The discourse of religious right has significantly changed from that of traditional conservatism in favor of expansionary foreign policies to that of isolationism and "third world friendly" style politics. Well, radical Islamists in the Middle East, particulary in Egypt, have gradually started to take control over trade unions and professional labor associations. They promise bread, justice and equality to people. When it comes to practising these values, however, they are exteremely authoritarian and exclusionary, and hostile to socialism. They find socialism's centrality of class struggle harmful to religious notions of community, stability and order. I don't think that catholics significantly differ from islamists in that respect. The only difference is that radical islamism has a rhetoric of anti-imperialism, which catholicism lacks as a "core" power religion. One also needs to understand the changing role of religion from an overall systemic perspective--. The relatively progressive libertarian theology of 1970s has given way to evangalist right in most places like latin america and the middle east after 1980s. Moreover, I really would like to see any "evidence" of leftist or progressive elements in religion. On the contrary, all religions, including christianity, are highly hierarchical, racist and sexist. Submitting to the order of God is itself a slave relationship to begin with. As Adorno once reminded us, we can easly find anti-semite elements in christianity too (depsite all problems with Adorno). This is even true in the case of white protestanism, which shares almost all the socio-biological assumptions of superiority of some races, hierarchy and stability. btw, labor-religion alliance is not only unique to US left.You can almost see it everywhere, but, unlike here, it seriously divides the socialist movement. I am just assuming that this has something to do with the idea of religious tolerance central to american liberalism. in any case, Marx's essay "On the Jewish Question" is an excellent piece of work as a reminder enough religion. i am somewhat bored with it, also because of increasing pressure from liberal catholic students here who always ask me to accompany them to church on sundays. i am sure they will find the truth.. i have got to go back to study.. thanks, Mine I asked: labor-religon alliance? people of faith net work? what have they got to do with labor rights? >N.B. These are the components of the U.S. left that >actually do useful things, talk to real people in a >comprehensible lan
RE: Further excuses of religion: RE: NYU Conference Schedule(April 7-8) (fwd)
Mine wrote: Max, I take your comments as misunderstanding me. I simply could not see the relationship between "religion" and "socialism" in some theoretical sense. . . . Actually I wasn't attacking you, or meaning to. It was my way of being friendly. I was attacking Louis. Who is Louis? Don't ask. Why does there have to be a theoretical relationship? If I don't like sweatshops, do I need a theory to object to them? This has nothing to do with rejecting "democratic values" or bashing religious people in favor of democracy (whatever it is). If I offended your religious feelings, I feel sorry. Since you are not explaining this relationship in a convincing manner, I think that my question is still fair and legitimate. This is a fundemental question, not a rhetorical one. > Maybe there is a relationship, maybe there isn't. I'll leave that to others. I don't do metaphysics or comparative religion. I do know that criticism of religion per se as a political practice is an exercise in self-sabotage for progressives in the U.S. maxi
