Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Ryan King]

On 2001.11.19, Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:22:09AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules

Since there is a huge, practical, difference between "Having stuff in
t/*" and "Tested well enough that it's darn near impossible to break the
code without seeing a failing test."

Now, "Having stuff in t/*" is probably better than nothing at all, and
I'm not saying otherwise.  However, for those modules that haven't
acheived the state of near-invincibility, I motion we create:

http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?PoorlyTestedModules

(I'd create it myself, but at the moment the wiki seems to be having
trouble.)

Just a thought.

 - Ryan King

P.S.: Let's say a bug is introduced into a CPAN module and a test
doesn't catch it.  After the bug is finally discovered, is a test
generally written to prevent that bug (and the bug's whole species)?
("Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me.")

I don't know enough about CPAN to say, but is there any way we can watch
the list of bugs and fixes to make sure we follow up with tests when the
individual authors don't?

If this has long been taken care of, sorry for the FAQ.

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Michael G Schwern]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 09:05:35AM -0500, Ryan King wrote:
> On 2001.11.19, Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:22:09AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > > > http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules
> 
> Since there is a huge, practical, difference between "Having stuff in
> t/*" and "Tested well enough that it's darn near impossible to break the
> code without seeing a failing test."

Heh, if we can actually start thinking about this I think the QA
project is going well.  It was just <> seven months
ago that we discovered a little over 1/3 of the whole distribution is
untested and started this in earnest.
http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2001-04/msg01218.html

Not a bad run.


> Now, "Having stuff in t/*" is probably better than nothing at all, and
> I'm not saying otherwise.  However, for those modules that haven't
> acheived the state of near-invincibility, I motion we create:
> 
> http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?PoorlyTestedModules

That'll be your job.  Here's your signet ring and gilded megaphone.


> (I'd create it myself, but at the moment the wiki seems to be having
> trouble.)

Not again!  Crapolla.  My webmaster has been flipping setuid bits,
which is good, but he forgets to tell me, which is bad.

If anyone wants to take the QA Wiki off my hands, please do.  I looked
at setting it up on Swiki.net but never got around to it.


> I don't know enough about CPAN to say, but is there any way we can watch
> the list of bugs and fixes to make sure we follow up with tests when the
> individual authors don't?

rt.cpan.org just got set up for just such bug tracking, but it's just
starting.  There's also bugs.perl.org for core bugs, there's a lot of
digging through that which needs to be done.


-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
Perl_croak(aTHX_ "Believe me, you don't want to use \"-u\" on a Macintosh");
-- toke.c

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[David M. Lloyd]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Tels wrote:

> > sub canonpath {
> > return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
> > }
>
> I'd written return File::Spec->canonpath(@_); just in case ;)

That won't work quite right, you'd either need to do:

  return File::Spec->canonpath(@_[1..$#_]);

or maybe:

  shift; return File::Spec->canonpath(@_);

- D

<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>

RE: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Dave Rolsky]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Tels wrote:

> * There are a couple of functions I have tests for, BUT:
>
> =item canonpath
>
> No physical check on the filesystem, but a logical cleanup of a
> path. On UNIX eliminated successive slashes and successive "/.".
>
> =cut
>
> [snip]
> =item catdir
>
> Concatenate two or more directory names to form a complete path
> ending
> [snip]
>
> etc etc.
>
> Shouldn't all these path functions be already somewhere else, f.i. in
> File::Spec and shouldn't it use File::Spec, simply? Or am I something
> missing?

Yes, this should be using File::Spec (unless the code in ExtUtils for
doing these differs in a way that needs to be preserved).  I know there
are some modules out there using ExtUtils::MakeMaker for file manipulation
stuff.  I just patched ExtUtils::Instal to use File::Spec instead.  I was
planning to hunt through the core for the rest (maybe this weekend) and
patch them.

Once that was done it'd be a simple matter to remove the code implementing
these method from ExtUtils::MakeMaker.  If you would prefer to handle the
ExtUtils::MakeMaker and ExtUtils::MM_* changes yourself let me know.


-dave

/*==
www.urth.org
We await the New Sun
==*/

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Elaine -HFB- Ashton]

Michael G Schwern [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth:
*>
*>It's almost like that game show, "Win Lincoln Stein's Money"

I think it's...Ben Stein's Money. This is a clear sign you need to get out
more often. :)

*>Remember, the sooner I have to cough up the money, the sooner I'll
*>have to get a job.  And then I won't have as much time to screw around
*>on p5p which will be a relief for everyone.

"I'd like to live as a poor man with lots of money." - Picasso

e.

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Russ Allbery]

Michael G Schwern <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> Here's something that would be nice to get done, finish off testing
> last three dozen modules and let YAS have $500 of my money.

> http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules

> It's almost like that game show, "Win Lincoln Stein's Money"

It looks like Pod::Find and Pod::Checker have tests already in the current
tree in t/pod.  Pod::InputObjects is used by Pod::Parser so it's *partly*
tested, although not directly tested.  I think there may be tests for
Pod::Usage there also.

I'm currently working on Pod::Man, Pod::Text*, and Pod::ParseLink.

-- 
Russ Allbery ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) 

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tim Jenness]

I'm intending to add a real test to Pod::LaTeX in the next couple of days 
when I release V0.54.

On Sun, 18 Nov 2001, Michael G Schwern wrote:

> Here's something that would be nice to get done, finish off testing
> last three dozen modules and let YAS have $500 of my money.
> 
> http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules
> 
> It's almost like that game show, "Win Lincoln Stein's Money"
> 
> Remember, the sooner I have to cough up the money, the sooner I'll
> have to get a job.  And then I won't have as much time to screw around
> on p5p which will be a relief for everyone.
> 
> 
> 

-- 
Tim Jenness
JAC software
http://www.jach.hawaii.edu/~timj

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Michael G Schwern]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 12:22:09AM -0800, Russ Allbery wrote:
> > http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules
> 
> It looks like Pod::Find and Pod::Checker have tests already in the current
> tree in t/pod.  

Ok, scrub them off the list.


> Pod::InputObjects is used by Pod::Parser so it's *partly*
> tested, although not directly tested.

That don't fly.


> I'm currently working on Pod::Man, Pod::Text*, and Pod::ParseLink.

Excellante.  Register that you're doing so on the Wiki so we don't
trip over each other.


-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
pleasing symmetry
the paste goes in at one end
comes out the other.
-- mjd

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[lenzo]

On Sun, Nov 18, 2001 at 07:15:02PM -0500, Michael G Schwern wrote:
> Here's something that would be nice to get done, finish off testing
> last three dozen modules and let YAS have $500 of my money.
> 
> http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules

Michael,

Thanks :)  We're about to open up the funding drive for this 
year in a serious way under the Perl Foundation, and this will
certainly help.  It's going to be especially challenging this
year, with everything that has happened.

Thanks again for your vote of support -- and your cash.  Both 
are going to the right things.

Kevin
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

RE: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tels]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Moin,

On 19-Nov-01 Michael G Schwern tried to scribble about:
> Here's something that would be nice to get done, finish off testing
> last three dozen modules and let YAS have $500 of my money.
> http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/cgi-bin/perl-qa-wiki.cgi?UntestedModules

I started on ExtUtils::MM_Unix. Probably I cover the rest as well.

But Wiki is not pleased:

Software error:

Could not get editing lock at perl-qa-wiki.cgi line 3224. 

For help, please send mail to the webmaster (webmaster
at magnonel.guild.net), giving this error message and the time and
date of the error. 

Besides, some questions:

* I used Test::More. Okay?
* there are a lot of functions doing a lot of things I don't understand, so
no tests for them, yet.
* There are a couple of functions I have tests for, BUT:

=item canonpath

No physical check on the filesystem, but a logical cleanup of a
path. On UNIX eliminated successive slashes and successive "/.".

=cut

[snip]
=item catdir

Concatenate two or more directory names to form a complete path
ending
[snip]

etc etc.

Shouldn't all these path functions be already somewhere else, f.i. in
File::Spec and shouldn't it use File::Spec, simply? Or am I something
missing?

> It's almost like that game show, "Win Lincoln Stein's Money"
> Remember, the sooner I have to cough up the money, the sooner I'll
> have to get a job.  

Oh, it seems so easy to get rid of my job, I just need to propose to pay
some money for some unlikely event and *pouff* ;)

Cheers,

Tels

- -- 
 perl -MDev::Bollocks -e'print Dev::Bollocks->rand(),"\n"'
 vitalistically monetize transparent e-services

 http://bloodgate.com/perl   My current Perl projects
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RE: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tels]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Moin,

oh, related to:

http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2001-11/msg01172.html

?

On 19-Nov-01 Tels tried to scribble about:
[snip]
> * There are a couple of functions I have tests for, BUT:
> 
> =item canonpath
> 
> No physical check on the filesystem, but a logical cleanup of a
> path. On UNIX eliminated successive slashes and successive "/.".
> 
> =cut
> 
> [snip]
> =item catdir
> 
> Concatenate two or more directory names to form a complete path
> ending
> [snip]
> 
> etc etc.
> 
> Shouldn't all these path functions be already somewhere else, f.i. in
> File::Spec and shouldn't it use File::Spec, simply? Or am I something
> missing?

- -- 
 perl -MDev::Bollocks -e'print Dev::Bollocks->rand(),"\n"'
 economically promote sexy clusters

 http://bloodgate.com/perl   My current Perl projects
 PGP key available on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or via email 

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Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Michael G Schwern]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:11:51PM +0100, Tels wrote:
> oh, related to:
> 
> http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2001-11/msg01172.html
> 
> ?

Yes.  You can pretty much just make them thin wrappers around the
appropriate File::Spec method to preserve the MM interface and mention
that their use is deprecated in favor of File::Spec.

sub canonpath {
return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
}

or if you're feeling really compact

foreach my $meth (qw(canonpath catdir ...)) {
*{__PACKAGE__.'::'.$meth} = sub {
File::Spec->$meth($_[1]);
};
}

but that might be getting a little silly.

This also means you can completely junk all the versions of these
methods in the subclasses.  Anything that reduces the size of
MakeMaker has to be a good thing.


> On 19-Nov-01 Tels tried to scribble about:
> [snip]
> > * There are a couple of functions I have tests for, BUT:
> > 
> > =item canonpath
> > 
> > No physical check on the filesystem, but a logical cleanup of a
> > path. On UNIX eliminated successive slashes and successive "/.".
> > 
> > =cut
> > 
> > [snip]
> > =item catdir
> > 
> > Concatenate two or more directory names to form a complete path
> > ending
> > [snip]
> > 
> > etc etc.
> > 
> > Shouldn't all these path functions be already somewhere else, f.i. in
> > File::Spec and shouldn't it use File::Spec, simply? Or am I something
> > missing?

-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
"Let's face it," said bearded Rusty Simmons, opening a can after the
race.  "This is a good excuse to drink some beer."  At 10:30 in the
morning?  "Well, it's past noon in Dublin," said teammate Mike
[Joseph] Schwern.  "It's our duty."
-- "Sure, and It's a Great Day for Irish Runners" 
   Newsday, Sunday, March 20, 1988

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tels]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Moin,

On 19-Nov-01 Michael G Schwern tried to scribble about:
> On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:11:51PM +0100, Tels wrote:
>> oh, related to:
>> 
>> http://www.xray.mpe.mpg.de/mailing-lists/perl5-porters/2001-11/msg01172.h
>> tml
>> 
>> ?
> 
> Yes.  You can pretty much just make them thin wrappers around the
> appropriate File::Spec method to preserve the MM interface and mention
> that their use is deprecated in favor of File::Spec.

Cool ;o) Will do so. So the test simple fall down to see if the methods
exists and are callable and do something simple. (I assume that
File::Spec::catfile etc are sufficiently tested and we don't need to
repeat it there...)

> sub canonpath {
> return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
> }

I'd written return File::Spec->canonpath(@_); just in case ;)

> or if you're feeling really compact
> but that might be getting a little silly.

It are only 4-5 methods...

> This also means you can completely junk all the versions of these
> methods in the subclasses.  Anything that reduces the size of
> MakeMaker has to be a good thing.

Thought so. ;o) I assume this patch needs also to Cced to were the
official makemaker lives? CPAN? (Note to self: Check this tomorrow)

Cheers,

Tels

- -- 
 perl -MDev::Bollocks -e'print Dev::Bollocks->rand(),"\n"'
 confidentially administrate user-centric e-business

 http://bloodgate.com/perl   My current Perl projects
 PGP key available on http://bloodgate.com/tels.asc or via email 

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Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Bart Lateur]

On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:36:45 +0100 (CET), Tels wrote:

>> sub canonpath {
>> return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
>> }
>
>I'd written return File::Spec->canonpath(@_); just in case ;)

That ain't right. You'll get an extra argument in front (the class
name).

Is there a reason for not using the @ISA inheritance mechanism?

-- 
Bart.

RE: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tels]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Moin,

On 19-Nov-01 Dave Rolsky tried to scribble about:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001, Tels wrote:
> Yes, this should be using File::Spec (unless the code in ExtUtils for
> doing these differs in a way that needs to be preserved).  I know there
> are some modules out there using ExtUtils::MakeMaker for file
> manipulation
> stuff.  I just patched ExtUtils::Instal to use File::Spec instead.  I was
> planning to hunt through the core for the rest (maybe this weekend) and
> patch them.
> 
> Once that was done it'd be a simple matter to remove the code
> implementing
> these method from ExtUtils::MakeMaker.  

My words ;)

> If you would prefer to handle the
> ExtUtils::MakeMaker and ExtUtils::MM_* changes yourself let me know.

You can do it. I'll wait until the dust settles (I wrote tests for routines
that now get removed, so I am a bit conservative with starting another heap
of work ;)

Thanx in advance,

Tels

- -- 
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 efficiently bully cross-platform portals

 http://bloodgate.com/perl   My current Perl projects
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Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Tels]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-

Moin,

On 20-Nov-01 Bart Lateur tried to scribble about:
> On Mon, 19 Nov 2001 22:36:45 +0100 (CET), Tels wrote:
> 
>>> sub canonpath {
>>> return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
>>> }
>>
>>I'd written return File::Spec->canonpath(@_); just in case ;)
> 
> That ain't right. You'll get an extra argument in front (the class
> name).

My mistake.

> Is there a reason for not using the @ISA inheritance mechanism?

Uhm, I didn't think of that.

Anyway, seeing that the $MM->foo() calls get replaced by File::Spec calls
in MakeMaker, I hope that we can scrap these routines completely.

Beside, MM_Unix.pm implements them all, and MM_VMS.pm, which should
override them, already uses File::Spec? Huh?

And then there is the fact the MM_Unix is for Unix, and VMS for the VMS
stuff, but MM_Unix does some $^O checking and then handles quite a lot of
OS/2, DOS, VMS etc cases by itself? And then MM_VMS.pm handles only, uh
well, the, really VMS specific code?

Basically, it is a mess.

I start by providing tests and letting MM_Unix.pm use File::Spec, then we
see about the rest.

Cheers,

Tels


- -- 
 perl -MDev::Bollocks -e'print Dev::Bollocks->rand(),"\n"'
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Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Michael G Schwern]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 12:33:30PM +0100, Bart Lateur wrote:
> Is there a reason for not using the @ISA inheritance mechanism?

In this case, simple delegation works much better.  We only need a
handful of File::Spec's interface, the methods are all but deprecated
in MakeMaker, and MM is already confused enough without throwing
File::Spec into it's family tree.


-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
The truth is you suck!

RE: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Dave Rolsky]

On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tels wrote:

> > If you would prefer to handle the
> > ExtUtils::MakeMaker and ExtUtils::MM_* changes yourself let me know.
>
> You can do it. I'll wait until the dust settles (I wrote tests for routines
> that now get removed, so I am a bit conservative with starting another heap
> of work ;)

Ok, I'll write up another patch to do this if my previous MM-> cleanup
patch is accepted (I just want to make sure I'm on an acceptable path
here).


-dave

/*==
www.urth.org
We await the New Sun
==*/

Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0

[Jarkko Hietaniemi]

On Tue, Nov 20, 2001 at 03:54:05PM -0600, Dave Rolsky wrote:
> On Tue, 20 Nov 2001, Tels wrote:
> 
> > > If you would prefer to handle the
> > > ExtUtils::MakeMaker and ExtUtils::MM_* changes yourself let me know.
> >
> > You can do it. I'll wait until the dust settles (I wrote tests for routines
> > that now get removed, so I am a bit conservative with starting another heap
> > of work ;)
> 
> Ok, I'll write up another patch to do this if my previous MM-> cleanup
> patch is accepted (I just want to make sure I'm on an acceptable path

The principle looks good to me, but I'm waiting for a ping echo from
Berlin...

> here).
> 
> 
> -dave
> 
> /*==
> www.urth.org
> We await the New Sun
> ==*/

-- 
$jhi++; # http://www.iki.fi/jhi/
# There is this special biologist word we use for 'stable'.
# It is 'dead'. -- Jack Cohen

MakeMaker vs File::Spec (was Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0)

[Michael G Schwern]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:36:45PM +0100, Tels wrote:
> > sub canonpath {
> > return File::Spec->canonpath($_[1]);
> > }
> 
> I'd written return File::Spec->canonpath(@_); just in case ;)

The first argument has to be ignored (it's the MakeMaker object)
and canonpath() takes just one argument.

The rest you'll have to do on a case-by-case basis.  Don't get fancy.

As for the testing, just ensure that:

is( ExtUtils::MM_Unix->canonpath($foo), File::Spec->canonpath($foo) );

that should be sufficient.


> > This also means you can completely junk all the versions of these
> > methods in the subclasses.  Anything that reduces the size of
> > MakeMaker has to be a good thing.
> 
> Thought so. ;o) I assume this patch needs also to Cced to were the
> official makemaker lives? CPAN? (Note to self: Check this tomorrow)

The core contains the only official version of MakeMaker.  I tried to
move it to CPAN a few months ago, but got scared because of the lack
of tests.  There's an alpha still sitting in my CPAN author directory.
Kurt was supposed to give this another whack.

Just forward them to [EMAIL PROTECTED]


-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
WOOHOO!  I'm going to Disneyland!
http://www.goats.com/archive/980805.html

QA Wiki Working again [was Re: Make Schwern Poor before 5.8.0]

[Michael G Schwern]

On Mon, Nov 19, 2001 at 10:09:23PM +0100, Tels wrote:
> But Wiki is not pleased:
> 
> Software error:
> 
> Could not get editing lock at perl-qa-wiki.cgi line 3224. 

The permissions on the Wiki are borked.  Fixed it with a little
trickery, it should work now.

Haven't bribed my sysadmin lately, I think a trip to Pittsburgh is in
order.


-- 

Michael G. Schwern   <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>http://www.pobox.com/~schwern/
Perl Quality Assurance  <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Kwalitee Is Job One
I'm spanking my yacht.