Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Dave Page wrote: I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? On my wiki I have an RSS feed for every page, subwiki (aka area) and the entire wiki people can subscribe to: http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODOpage=HomePage http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php regards, Lukas ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Wed, 27 Sep 2006, Lukas Kahwe Smith wrote: Dave Page wrote: I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? On my wiki I have an RSS feed for every page, subwiki (aka area) and the entire wiki people can subscribe to: http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODOpage=HomePage http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php?area=PHPTODO http://oss.backendmedia.com/rss.php I only really know of the entire wiki one, but that's the only one I have ever wanted to do. I think it may be able to limit to namespaces, but I am not sure about that. http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchangesfeed=rss There are a bunch of knobs on the Special:Recentchanges page which could apply also to the rss version, but I have never tried it and they may not, I don't know. regards, Lukas -- Besides the device, the box should contain: * Eight little rectangular snippets of paper that say WARNING * A plastic packet containing four 5/17 inch pilfer grommets and two club-ended 6/93 inch boxcar prawns. YOU WILL NEED TO SUPPLY: a matrix wrench and 60,000 feet of tram cable. IF ANYTHING IS DAMAGED OR MISSING: You IMMEDIATELY should turn to your spouse and say: Margaret, you know why this country can't make a car that can get all the way through the drive-through at Burger King without a major transmission overhaul? Because nobody cares, that's why. WARNING: This is assuming your spouse's name is Margaret. -- Dave Barry, Read This First! ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ BTW: I am wondering if there is an RSS feed of the changes? There is. http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchangesfe ed=rss //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Hi, Martijn, Martijn van Oosterhout wrote: 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, just that it's not official. [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that should help]. Maybe you should rename the public writable Wiki page list to Wishlist instead of Todo, to make the difference more explicit. Thanks, Markus -- Markus Schaber | Logical TrackingTracing International AG Dipl. Inf. | Software Development GIS Fight against software patents in Europe! www.ffii.org www.nosoftwarepatents.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Wed, Sep 20, 2006 at 12:28:54PM +0200, Markus Schaber wrote: Maybe you should rename the public writable Wiki page list to Wishlist instead of Todo, to make the difference more explicit. Hmm, all the stuff there now does refer to things that are on the TODO list (I think). So it's not wishlist at all, it's the *detail* that's unoffical. But you're right, it'd probably be a good idea to make a section for absolutly wishlist stuff. I just can't think of any right now, the TODO list is quite extensive. In any case I've altered the wording a bit to make the distinction a bit clearer. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Ok, so what is it you need help with? On Sep 18, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Jim C. Nasby wrote: On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, we hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't useful enough, then we can say We have actually tried it for the project, it didn't work. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ -- Jim Nasby[EMAIL PROTECTED] EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Jim Nasby wrote: Ok, so what is it you need help with? see previous discussion about what is required to keep a tracker system healthy. In particular: . items appearing in other media need to be put in the tracker . items entered in the tracker need to be regularly triaged, reviewed and updated. Systems lacking this amount of TLC rapidly become useless, and in fact unused. Also, if we are in fact going to use bz, there is probably some dev work that should be done to improve/extend its email functionality, to make it fit the way we do business better. cheers andrew On Sep 18, 2006, at 1:24 AM, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Jim C. Nasby wrote: On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, we hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't useful enough, then we can say We have actually tried it for the project, it didn't work. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gregory Stark wrote: A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it useful. It would have things we don't already know. I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. Well, there is a reason why I put a big label there Unofficial TODO List. I tried to make it clear that it's not an official stance of the project. If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. The page someone has put up covering XML told me more about the current state of XML support in postgres than a few hours of archive searching would. It's just not official, that doesn't make it any less useful. Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, just that it's not official. [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that should help]. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little time (days, IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, somthing that we already have *two* different systems (interactive docs + new techdocs) for, and specifically said we absolutely did not want on this wiki? IIRC, that got on there long before *any* content related to what was actually supposed to be there.. It's already getting more attention and updates than the techdocs wiki which still has articles up from 2001 that are no longer relevant and in some cases are actively misleading. It's in the process of being cleaned up, mainly by Robert Treat. I'm sure he'd appreciate help. Why would *this* wiki be less suceptible to the same kind of issues than the old one? That's more an argument that we *will* have this problem on the wiki. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Techdocs is a different problem all together. Josh has already mentioned some problems with it. I can mention more. [warning: thread hi-jack] 1. It isn't easy to login Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that requires login, and you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? 2. It is even harder to create a login Again, really? If yo uget the login prompt and hit cancel (or just login with an invalid password), that says you need a community login. If you don't hav eone, click here to read about it. If you click here, you get to the page where you sign up. Now, explaining this process on the frontpage of the techdocs part of the site might not be a bad idea at all (in fact, it's a good idea :-P), but do you honestly think the process is complex? If so, what should we do to make it easier? 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they don't know they have to go to the community portion of the www site to get to it. See above, you don't need to do this. I am sure their are other problems on the inside, I haven't actually ever logged in ;) You should, we'd like to know about them so we can fix them. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 9: In versions below 8.0, the planner will ignore your desire to choose an index scan if your joining column's datatypes do not match
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? IIRC, the idea was someone with an account. Basically you add a (very very small) hurdle so you only get the people who actually *care* to write things. But if you do care, it's not a lot of work. You also get traceability, so you can talk to whomever wrote a certain thing. I don't see any gain in having someone specifically authorize who can write to it. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 03:09:29PM +0200, Magnus Hagander wrote: The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little time (days, IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, snip Really? Where was that? Did it get deleted in the meantime? Who's responsible for that kind of thing? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. Uh, you mean apart from the fact that it took very little time (days, IIRC) before we had people writing attempts at user documentation, snip Really? Where was that? Did it get deleted in the meantime? Who's responsible for that kind of thing? Yes. Dave took it off when he moved the wiki to it's correct place (being developer.postgresql.org) AFAIK, nobody has stepped up to actually take *responsibility* for maintaining the wiki - both software and content-wise. But I may have missed something while I speed-read some lists after getting back. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. Joshua D. Drake 2. I can see the official todo list being in CVS, which gives it all the access protection it needs. A wiki todo list can stay where it is, just that it's not official. [I've just made a reference to the TODO list in CVS from the wiki, that should help]. Have a nice day, -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
1. It isn't easy to login Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that requires login, and you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? What URL are you talking about? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/techdocs Where do I click login? Where do I click create account? Where do I click to login? 2. It is even harder to create a login Again, really? If yo uget the login prompt and hit cancel (or just login with an invalid password), that says you need a community login. If you don't hav eone, click here to read about it. If you click here, you get to the page where you sign up. You are corrent, now that I have tried it. If I click edit, and then cancel because I don't have a login I get a page that tells me: * Login required * Accessing this resource requires a community login. If you don't have * one, you can read about it here. To try again, just press your * browsers Refresh button. Which pretty much goes against how every other site in the world does it. I shouldn't have to throw an exception to perform the correct behavior. That page that tells me where to login should come *BEFORE* I get a login prompt. Now, explaining this process on the frontpage of the techdocs part of the site might not be a bad idea at all (in fact, it's a good idea :-P), but do you honestly think the process is complex? If so, what should we do to make it easier? Let me rephrase. It is not complex, it is not standard. Which makes it confusing. What I expect is this: Open web browser Go to techdocs Either the first thing I see is, * You are not logged in, if you wish to edit content click here to login or create an account. * When I click edit the above happens. 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they don't know they have to go to the community portion of the www site to get to it. See above, you don't need to do this. You are correct but most people are going to be confused. They are going to click edit, see a login/password they don't have and move on. Heck I probably have hit cancel before and didn't even read the text after. Why? Because the text after a login failure or cancel when using httpd auth is almost ALWAYS telling me I need a correct login. Not giving a link to login. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 3: Have you checked our extensive FAQ? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/faq
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Magnus Hagander wrote: Two points I'm not clear about on this thread though: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? IIRC, the idea was someone with an account. Basically you add a (very very small) hurdle so you only get the people who actually *care* to write things. But if you do care, it's not a lot of work. You also get traceability, so you can talk to whomever wrote a certain thing. I don't see any gain in having someone specifically authorize who can write to it. Yeah I would agree. My idea was just that people would actually create an account and be email confirmed. Joshua D. Drake //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. I guess it depends on whether you feel the larger of the project's problems is too many people trying to help who must be stopped before they do something that may need to be corrected or too few people getting past the natural barriers to being able to contribute. The former would be a great problem to have but I don't see any evidence of it. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
1. It isn't easy to login Really? You're kidding, right? You click a link that requires login, and you get a browser login box. How much easier can it be? What URL are you talking about? http://www.postgresql.org/docs/techdocs Yes. Where do I click login? Where do I click create account? Where do I click to login? You click to do whatever you want to do - say edit a page or create a new page. When you do, you will be asked to log in. There is no point in asking you to log in when you don't need it (such as for reading pages) You are corrent, now that I have tried it. If I click edit, and then cancel because I don't have a login I get a page that tells me: * Login required * Accessing this resource requires a community login. If you don't have * one, you can read about it here. To try again, just press your * browsers Refresh button. Which pretty much goes against how every other site in the world does it. I shouldn't have to throw an exception to perform the correct behavior. No, that's correct. But in *normal* access, you just get the login prompt and you go for it. The usability issue is definitly with the signup though - do you think it'd be enough to just add a blurb about it on the first page of techdocs? That page that tells me where to login should come *BEFORE* I get a login prompt. Here, we clearly disagree, I think. If you mean a system like pgFoundry, where you find where you want to go and edit something (say a tracker), then you have to specifically go log in (because you never remember to do that when you get there in the first place - or you may have received the link in email), at which point you are promptly sent off to a completely different page than the one you wanted to edit... Let me rephrase. It is not complex, it is not standard. Which makes it confusing. What I expect is this: Open web browser Go to techdocs Either the first thing I see is, * You are not logged in, if you wish to edit content click here to login or create an account. * When I click edit the above happens. Depends on whose standard you look at, I guess. This is how most proper sites work, IMHO. There are a whole lot of sucky sites out there, though :-P Therere is anothe rproblem with that one - it does not scale. It requires every pgae to be dynamic and look if you are logged in. Why? Because the text after a login failure or cancel when using httpd auth is almost ALWAYS telling me I need a correct login. Not giving a link to login. Yes, this is definitly a problem. again, you think it'd be enough to stick it o nthe frontpage of techdocs, or do we need a small blurb on every page next to the edit links? //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
-Original Message- From: Magnus Hagander [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org Cc: Gregory Stark [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Josh Berkus josh@agliodbs.com; [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Neil Conway [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Dave Page dpage@vale-housing.co.uk; pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org Sent: 17/09/06 14:22 Subject: RE: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki Dave took it off when he moved the wiki to it's correct place (being developer.postgresql.org) I left it there, but un-linked from the frontpage in this case - but that was mainly because Devrim had clearly put a lot of effort in and I don't know if he has a copy. /D AFAIK, nobody has stepped up to actually take *responsibility* for maintaining the wiki - both software and content-wise. But I may have missed something while I speed-read some lists after getting back. //Magnus ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Gregory Stark wrote: Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: 1. Authorized user: is that someone with an account, or someone who has been authorized by someone else? In my mind it is someone who without threw a process of email confirmation. Just to help stave off the amount of trolling that may happen. I guess it depends on whether you feel the larger of the project's problems is too many people trying to help who must be stopped before they do something that may need to be corrected or too few people getting past the natural barriers to being able to contribute. That is a good point. I see it as more of a problem with crap content that could occur and thus good content won't. Joshua D. Drake The former would be a great problem to have but I don't see any evidence of it. -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sat, 16 Sep 2006, Josh Berkus wrote: Hi, Greg, I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That encourages people to get involved and put up information. The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless you're volunteering. Then it will need not be a wiki, just make a website. This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the specification which is the general consensus. If we had a user documentation wiki, then *that* should be world-editable, but again that would require community volunteers to dedicate to cleaning it up. The developer wiki is by and for actual contributors. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org writes: On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. Because if they're willing to put any actual effort into it, the right way is to post that same item to the mailing list where it can be discussed. If it survives such discussion (very possibly in a modified form) *then* it belongs on a TODO list. The first problem with a wiki TODO is that it will not reflect any sort of community consensus, only the opinions of whoever edited the page last. The second problem is that setting it up represents a unilateral attempt to redefine (bypass?) the community's design/development process, which is a process that has served us well for many years and is not showing any signs of being broken. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Tom Lane wrote: Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org writes: On Sat, Sep 16, 2006 at 09:15:24PM -0400, Tom Lane wrote: Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. If someone wants to spend an afternoon putting up a coherent description of their wishlist item complete with possible problems and solutions, then I don't see why we should stop them. Because if they're willing to put any actual effort into it, the right way is to post that same item to the mailing list where it can be discussed. If it survives such discussion (very possibly in a modified form) *then* it belongs on a TODO list. The first problem with a wiki TODO is that it will not reflect any sort of community consensus, only the opinions of whoever edited the page last. The second problem is that setting it up represents a unilateral attempt to redefine (bypass?) the community's design/development process, which is a process that has served us well for many years and is not showing any signs of being broken. I agree with lots of this. Being slightly more abstract, we are grappling with a couple of different kinds of objects here: discussions and decisions. The mailing list is a very good way of having a discussion, and a wiki is IMNSHO a poor substitute. Ditto, bulletin board, web forum, blog . The reason is simply that with a mailing list all you need is a subscription to get the info delivered to you in a medium everybody uses. It's push, not pull, and that's very appealing. Any other mechanism requires the user to seek the location of the discussion actively to some degree. Conversely, the very unstructured nature of the mailing list(s) makes them a poor medium for capturing decisions. That's why some of us have advocated use of a tracker to capture decisions about development directions, because the TODO list doesn't seem appropriate. But an open wiki would be a horrible substitute for the TODO list - it would turn it from a list that reflects at least some discussion and consensus into a mere wish list of no authority whatsoever. IOW, it is the exact opposite of the direction I believe we should be headed. I use wikis in my work as a good way of capturing all sorts of information I want to keep. But I have generally found them to be less than successful as a way of capturing discussions or developing coherent bodies of technical information and decisions. Comparisons have been made with WikiPedia - they are inappropriate. Quite apart from anything else Wikipedia survives through the work of a huge team of editors who review the work of contributors. And they still run into trouble. We don't have the resources and we don't need the fights. So let's not go there. The only good purpose I can see for a developer wiki is as a place to publish information that is too large for the mailing lists. Currently we provide web and other space for a few users - a wiki would allow us to provide publishing facilities in a central spot for a significantly wider group of people, with very little cost. Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. cheers andrew ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Joshua D. Drake cheers andrew -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) -- Jim Nasby[EMAIL PROTECTED] EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com 512.569.9461 (cell) ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Jim C. Nasby wrote: On Sun, Sep 17, 2006 at 12:32:13PM -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote: Tom proposed a modest roadmap type experiment a week or so ago. I'd like to see that pursued. After all, we know of some things that are at least at first cut stage for 8.3, and a few things high on may people's agenda. I'd also like to see some work done on using a tracker (for features as well as bugs). The rest of what's been talked about strikes me as wasted effort, to be honest. We seem to be running in a few directions which look like dead ends to me. Let's pick one or two strategically, and follow those instead. There are a couple of people helping me with pgbugs.commandprompt.com. We could always use a couple more. Sorry if I missed an email, but help doing what? Are we actively trying to do something with that besides just play around with it (I'm already pretty well-aware of bugzilla's capabilities...) Well yes, we are trying to use it :). If it becomes useful enough, we hope that the project as a whole will move to it. If it isn't useful enough, then we can say We have actually tried it for the project, it didn't work. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 4: Have you searched our list archives? http://archives.postgresql.org
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Martjin, I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm still not clear if it's supposed to be developers only - to the exclusion of users or developers only - but accessable to anyone. It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Josh Berkus josh@agliodbs.com writes: I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm still not clear if it's supposed to be developers only - to the exclusion of users or developers only - but accessable to anyone. It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That encourages people to get involved and put up information. Experience shows that most people are cooperative most of the time. If there turns out to be particularly contentious areas you can restrict access to those areas to authorized users or ban ip addresses. I've already put some stuff up there. I didn't plan to, but when I was browsing I had ideas and the ability to add content was just one click away... -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Greg, I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That encourages people to get involved and put up information. The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless you're volunteering. This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the specification which is the general consensus. If we had a user documentation wiki, then *that* should be world-editable, but again that would require community volunteers to dedicate to cleaning it up. The developer wiki is by and for actual contributors. -- Josh Berkus PostgreSQL @ Sun San Francisco ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Gregory Stark wrote: Josh Berkus josh@agliodbs.com writes: I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm still not clear if it's supposed to be developers only - to the exclusion of users or developers only - but accessable to anyone. It should be readable by everyone, but editable only by authorized users. I think the lessons of wikipedia is precisely that you *don't* want to add such barriers. You want to let people add stuff pretty much freely. That encourages people to get involved and put up information. I don't agree, you should also look at the recent post and fork by one of wikipedia's co-founders. The developers wiki should only be edited by authorized users. Now, getting authorized should be easy as reasonably possible, but having a wholesale editing orgy on the wiki responsible for tracking postgresql developer information is not a good idea. Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Josh Berkus josh@agliodbs.com writes: The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless you're volunteering. Bullshit. Most pages on wikipedia don't require any attention from such staff. There are *millions* of pages constantly being updated something that only works because of that dynamic. Only a small number of pages need any special attention. The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. It's already getting more attention and updates than the techdocs wiki which still has articles up from 2001 that are no longer relevant and in some cases are actively misleading. Putting barriers up blocking people trying to help isn't any guarantee of quality. What it does guarantee is irrelevance. This is *particularly* true of the TODO stuff. We simply don't want Joe User adding their personal wishlist to the TODOs, and that's exactly what will happen if the TODO list is world-writable. TODOs should be items which have been hashed out here on the Hackers list, and the wiki page should list the specification which is the general consensus. Frankly that's what we have today and that's why it's useless. Things only get put on the list when everyone who cares already knows what has to be done and then nobody looks at it because there's nothing there they don't already know about. A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it useful. It would have things we don't already know. -- Gregory Stark EnterpriseDB http://www.enterprisedb.com ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Gregory Stark wrote: Josh Berkus josh@agliodbs.com writes: The other lesson of Wikipedia is that maintaining wiki quality for a generally editable wiki requires a full-time dedicated staff. We don't even have any volunteers who have 4 hours/week to commit to cleaning up the wiki, unless you're volunteering. Bullshit. Most pages on wikipedia don't require any attention from such staff. This does not help your argument. The wiki has been sitting there for two weeks and hasn't had any problems. It's already getting more attention and updates than the techdocs wiki which still has articles up from 2001 that are no longer relevant and in some cases are actively misleading. Techdocs is a different problem all together. Josh has already mentioned some problems with it. I can mention more. 1. It isn't easy to login 2. It is even harder to create a login 3. There is no creation of login for most people because they don't know they have to go to the community portion of the www site to get to it. I am sure their are other problems on the inside, I haven't actually ever logged in ;) Putting barriers up blocking people trying to help isn't any guarantee of quality. What it does guarantee is irrelevance. Again you argue without actual evidence. Wikipedia is a success it is however it does have quite a bit of problems as well. A simple but very straightforward signup mechanism isn't going to stop most people. Frankly that's what we have today and that's why it's useless. Things only get put on the list when everyone who cares already knows what has to be done and then nobody looks at it because there's nothing there they don't already know about. Anytime I have asked for something to be put on the TODO list, it is. As long as I can provide a practical reason as to what it is and why it would be good. That part of the TODO works just fine. Now, do I think there is improvement to be made? Of course but the current TODO is far from useless. A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it useful. It would have things we don't already know. I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. Sincerely, Joshua D. Drake -- === The PostgreSQL Company: Command Prompt, Inc. === Sales/Support: +1.503.667.4564 || 24x7/Emergency: +1.800.492.2240 Providing the most comprehensive PostgreSQL solutions since 1997 http://www.commandprompt.com/ ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [pgsql-www] [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Joshua D. Drake [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gregory Stark wrote: A TODO list people can freely add stuff to is precisely what would make it useful. It would have things we don't already know. I am just going to hope that you are kidding about this one. Fortunately, none of the real developers would have to pay any attention to any such page ... and you can bet they wouldn't. regards, tom lane ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 6: explain analyze is your friend
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sun, Sep 03, 2006 at 08:30:13PM -0700, Neil Conway wrote: Martijn van Oosterhout said: Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. Well, a prefix like Todo: is not the incantation one needs to use to arrange pages in hierarchies. You probably want / to indicate a subpage: i.e. Parent/Child. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Link#Subpage_feature It also says it's not enabled by default. Is it enabled? I was actually hoping for more feedback on the content itself. I'm still not clear if it's supposed to be developers only - to the exclusion of users or developers only - but accessable to anyone. Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 11:46:12PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: Sounds reasonable to me. Ok, I've typed some stuff in here: http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Todo:Contents http://developer.postgresql.org/index.php/Todo:Collate Is this the kind of thing people are expecting? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Martijn van Oosterhout said: Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. Well, a prefix like Todo: is not the incantation one needs to use to arrange pages in hierarchies. You probably want / to indicate a subpage: i.e. Parent/Child. See http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Link#Subpage_feature It would seems like pages named: Todo:todo topic would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress info). I suggest you just give pages names that describe the content of the page, and then have a category for all the pages that constitute TODO items. See: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Help:Category -Neil ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 1: if posting/reading through Usenet, please send an appropriate subscribe-nomail command to [EMAIL PROTECTED] so that your message can get through to the mailing list cleanly
[HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ Where it is currently available for use by any hackers for non-end-user related activities. I haven't changed Greg's original configuration at all so it is still open for use by anyone at present, however I have added an introduction to the front page warning that end-user related content may be removed without notice. I've also added a couple of sections under which to add links to projects and management documentation hosted on the wiki. Let's see how it goes for now, and if it gets abused in anyway we can review whether or not we need to think about moderation. Regards, Dave. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 2: Don't 'kill -9' the postmaster
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 08:33:41PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. It would seems like pages named: Todo:todo topic would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress info). With Todo:Contents being a front page? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki
Sounds reasonable to me. Regards, Dave -Original Message- From: Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org To: Dave Page dpage@vale-housing.co.uk Cc: pgsql-hackers@postgresql.org; PostgreSQL WWW [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 02/09/06 23:08 Subject: Re: [HACKERS] Developer's Wiki On Sat, Sep 02, 2006 at 08:33:41PM +0100, Dave Page wrote: I have now moved the wiki installation to: http://developer.postgresql.org/ Ok, it looks like pages can be arranged hierarchically. It would seems like pages named: Todo:todo topic would be a good idea for detailed info on todo items (and progress info). With Todo:Contents being a front page? Have a nice day, -- Martijn van Oosterhout kleptog@svana.org http://svana.org/kleptog/ From each according to his ability. To each according to his ability to litigate. ---(end of broadcast)--- TIP 5: don't forget to increase your free space map settings
