Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[kilon alios]

to find in the end that you get 
what you pay for ;)

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 4:43 PM Esteban Lorenzano 
wrote:

> icon design and web design are two very different things.
> I seriously doubt we can get the icon set we need as cheap as you might
> think.
>
> but… we can always try :)
>
> Esteban
>
> On 24 Apr 2015, at 14:55, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Le 24/4/15 11:06, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
>>> And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of
>>> taste.
>>> The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain
>>> vision problems.
>>>
>>> Exactly.
>> When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking
>> white screen.
>>
>> Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a
>> 3.0).
>>
>> I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the
>> artefacts on the edges are not nice.
>>
>> If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that
>> can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That
>> would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
>>
>> Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly
>> for close to nil?
>>
>>
>> do you know the people?
>> Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
>>
>
> This is a large community.
>
> One can get a full website design done for around $500.
> Got that done and was nice work.
>
> Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/
>
> Phil
>
>>
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> > On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>>> >
>>> > That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I
>>> didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After
>>> setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it
>>> doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that
>>> he/she considers good?
>>> >
>>> > thanks,
>>> >
>>> > Norbert
>>> >
>>> >> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano >> >:
>>> >>
>>> >> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one,
>>> while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>>> >> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine
>>> most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string
>>> dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P).
>>> Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of
>>> months, I will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this
>>> is a problem eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>>> >>
>>> >> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides
>>> using a darker or clearer theme?
>>> >> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>>> >>
>>> >> Esteban
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
>>> >>>
>>> >>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>>  Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to
>>> love it,
>>>  and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  -
>>>  Cheers,
>>>  Sean
>>>  --
>>>  View this message in context:
>>> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>>>  Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>>> Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> >>>
>>> >>>
>>> >>
>>> >>
>>> >
>>> >
>>
>>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Esteban Lorenzano]

icon design and web design are two very different things. 
I seriously doubt we can get the icon set we need as cheap as you might think. 

but… we can always try :)

Esteban

> On 24 Apr 2015, at 14:55, p...@highoctane.be wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo  > wrote:
> 
> 
> Le 24/4/15 11:06, p...@highoctane.be  a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe > > wrote:
>> That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
>> And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste.
>> The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain 
>> vision problems.
>> 
>> Exactly.
>> When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking 
>> white screen.
>> 
>> Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a 
>> 3.0).
>> 
>> I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the 
>> artefacts on the edges are not nice.
>> 
>> If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that 
>> can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/ 
>> . That would be good use of consortium/association 
>> money for example.
>> 
>> Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly for 
>> close to nil?
> 
> do you know the people?
> Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
> 
> This is a large community.
> 
> One can get a full website design done for around $500.
> Got that done and was nice work.
> 
> Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/ 
> 
> 
> Phil 
> 
>> 
>> Phil
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  
>>  
>> > On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't 
>> > like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting 
>> > all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work 
>> > for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers 
>> > good?
>> >
>> > thanks,
>> >
>> > Norbert
>> >
>> >> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano > >> >:
>> >>
>> >> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, 
>> >> while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>> >> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of 
>> >> the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I 
>> >> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. 
>> >> we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I 
>> >> will deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a 
>> >> problem eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>> >>
>> >> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides 
>> >> using a darker or clearer theme?
>> >> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>> >>
>> >> Esteban
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo > >>> > wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>  Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love 
>>  it,
>>  and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  -
>>  Cheers,
>>  Sean
>>  --
>>  View this message in context: 
>>  http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html 
>>  
>>  Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at 
>>  Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 2:33 PM, stepharo  wrote:

>
>
> Le 24/4/15 11:06, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe 
> wrote:
>
>> That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
>> And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of
>> taste.
>> The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain
>> vision problems.
>>
>>  Exactly.
> When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking
> white screen.
>
>  Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a
> 3.0).
>
>  I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the
> artefacts on the edges are not nice.
>
>  If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job
> that can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/.
> That would be good use of consortium/association money for example.
>
>  Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly
> for close to nil?
>
>
> do you know the people?
> Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.
>

This is a large community.

One can get a full website design done for around $500.
Got that done and was nice work.

Alternatives (used too): https://www.freelancer.com/

Phil

>
>
>  Phil
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> > On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>> >
>> > That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I
>> didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After
>> setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it
>> doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that
>> he/she considers good?
>> >
>> > thanks,
>> >
>> > Norbert
>> >
>> >> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano > >:
>> >>
>> >> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one,
>> while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>> >> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most
>> of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I
>> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we
>> need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will
>> deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem
>> eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>> >>
>> >> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides
>> using a darker or clearer theme?
>> >> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>> >>
>> >> Esteban
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>  Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to
>> love it,
>>  and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>  -
>>  Cheers,
>>  Sean
>>  --
>>  View this message in context:
>> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>>  Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
>> Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
>> >>>
>> >>>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[stepharo]

+10

Le 24/4/15 12:15, Marcus Denker a écrit :

The short term real life goals are:

- unify keyboard shortcuts.
- improve event handling so that the use of a magic mouse does not produce 
dozens of events that make the UI go crazy


Yes!

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[stepharo]

Le 24/4/15 11:06, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :



On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe > wrote:


That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a
matter of taste.
The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve
certain vision problems.

Exactly.
When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a 
f*cking white screen.


Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in 
a 3.0).


I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because 
the artefacts on the edges are not nice.


If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job 
that can be done supercheap on something like 
https://en.99designs.be/. That would be good use of 
consortium/association money for example.


Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done 
professionaly for close to nil?


do you know the people?
Because I would really be in favor getting people doing this job.



Phil




> On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl mailto:norb...@hartl.name>> wrote:
>
> That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and
I didn't like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts.
After setting all things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast
wise it doesn't work for me. Can someone send a screenshot with
one setup that he/she considers good?
>
> thanks,
>
> Norbert
>
>> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano
mailto:esteba...@gmail.com>>:
>>
>> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular
one, while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works
fine most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example
find string dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody
complained so… :P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my
TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope),
otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself
had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>>
>> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI,
besides using a darker or clearer theme?
>> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>>
>> Esteban
>>
>>
>>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo mailto:steph...@free.fr>> wrote:
>>>
>>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>>>
>>>
>>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
 Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone
seems to love it,
 and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.



 -
 Cheers,
 Sean
 --
 View this message in context:
http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
 Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive
at Nabble.com.


>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 12:45 PM, Thierry Goubier  wrote:

> Le 24/04/2015 12:21, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier
>> mailto:thierry.goub...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>
>> Le 24/04/2015 10:11, p...@highoctane.be 
>> a écrit :
>>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano
>> mailto:esteba...@gmail.com>
>> >> wrote:
>>
>>  I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while
>> regular one,
>>  while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>>  Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and
>> works fine
>>  most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example
>> find
>>  string dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody
>>  complained so… :P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in
>> my TODO
>>  list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope),
>>  otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse
>> itself
>>  had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>>
>>  But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI,
>>  besides using a darker or clearer theme?
>>  I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up
>> everywhere"
>> thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
>>
>> In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in
>> additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt
>> Browse",
>> "Alt Browse Scoped")
>>
>> Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long
>> pane.
>> Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to
>> explain
>> things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
>>
>>
>> Like the Newspeak browser?
>>
>>
>> Don't know about that one.
>>
>
> http://bracha.org/hopscotch-wasdett.pdf
>
> Look for the IDE description (i.e. Figure 1). A web browser metaphor,
> where you can open all elements and edit in place; not that different from
> what it could be in Self.
>
> I believe it's not as efficient in practice as it could be, for editing
> code. But for overall viewing, could be very effective.
>
> I toyed with multiple selection in the AltBrowser (i.e. opening multiple
> edit panes on the right) but never went that way. Maybe merging both could
> be an idea: Newspeak browser + tree navigation on the left :)
>

yes, that's more fiiting what I have in mind.

>
>
>>
>> Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the
>> "hier/flat" button gets tiring).
>>
>>
>> This one is difficult to solve.
>>
>>
>> Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)
>>
>
> In AltBrowser, I'm searching around how to do that, so what I have is:
>
> - menu navigation commands (super, first subclass, sibling) with a memory
> (back), but I'm not satisfied because often what I want is see both at the
> same time. Back really works well, but maybe with a button on the toolbar
> (or linked to the back and forward keys on my Chromebook? Not used to that
> keyboard layout yet)
>
> - What I use most often is: right click on superclass name in the
> description, choose browse to open a browser on the superclass... Not too
> bad for what I want. Works for any class name everywhere, which is very
> convenient.
>
> - I also have a hierarchy command which opens a browser scoped on the
> hierarchy. For certain types of searches, it can be very convenient (i.e.
> all callers of printString in the hierarchy...)
>
> But, still: three ways to do the same thing? Clearly could be better.
>
> Thierry
>
>
>> I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still
>> not using
>> it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
>>
>>
>> I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my
>> searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid
>> switching back and forth between two GUIs.
>>
>> It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and
>> Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very
>> similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in
>> the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the
>> tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser,
>> the Whisker browser).
>>
>> Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser
>> with object-driven representations on the right... was that a
>> project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?
>>
>> Thierry
>>
>> Phil
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Thierry Goubier]

Le 24/04/2015 12:21, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :



On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier
mailto:thierry.goub...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Le 24/04/2015 10:11, p...@highoctane.be 
a écrit :



On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano
mailto:esteba...@gmail.com>
>> wrote:

 I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while
regular one,
 while probably dated, is more “standard”.
 Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and
works fine
 most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find
 string dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody
 complained so… :P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in
my TODO
 list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope),
 otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse
itself
 had it… we are just inheriting it :) )

 But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI,
 besides using a darker or clearer theme?
 I would like to hear some opinions here :)



I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up
everywhere"
thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.

In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in
additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt
Browse",
"Alt Browse Scoped")

Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long
pane.
Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain
things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.


Like the Newspeak browser?


Don't know about that one.


http://bracha.org/hopscotch-wasdett.pdf

Look for the IDE description (i.e. Figure 1). A web browser metaphor, 
where you can open all elements and edit in place; not that different 
from what it could be in Self.


I believe it's not as efficient in practice as it could be, for editing 
code. But for overall viewing, could be very effective.


I toyed with multiple selection in the AltBrowser (i.e. opening multiple 
edit panes on the right) but never went that way. Maybe merging both 
could be an idea: Newspeak browser + tree navigation on the left :)





Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the
"hier/flat" button gets tiring).


This one is difficult to solve.


Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)


In AltBrowser, I'm searching around how to do that, so what I have is:

- menu navigation commands (super, first subclass, sibling) with a 
memory (back), but I'm not satisfied because often what I want is see 
both at the same time. Back really works well, but maybe with a button 
on the toolbar (or linked to the back and forward keys on my Chromebook? 
Not used to that keyboard layout yet)


- What I use most often is: right click on superclass name in the 
description, choose browse to open a browser on the superclass... Not 
too bad for what I want. Works for any class name everywhere, which is 
very convenient.


- I also have a hierarchy command which opens a browser scoped on the 
hierarchy. For certain types of searches, it can be very convenient 
(i.e. all callers of printString in the hierarchy...)


But, still: three ways to do the same thing? Clearly could be better.

Thierry



I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still
not using
it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.


I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my
searches are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid
switching back and forth between two GUIs.

It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and
Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very
similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in
the overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the
tree-based browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser,
the Whisker browser).

Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser
with object-driven representations on the right... was that a
project by Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?

Thierry

Phil

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 10:48 AM, Thierry Goubier  wrote:

> Le 24/04/2015 10:11, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :
>
>>
>>
>> On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano > > wrote:
>>
>> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one,
>> while probably dated, is more “standard”.
>> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine
>> most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find
>> string dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody
>> complained so… :P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO
>> list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope),
>> otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself
>> had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>>
>> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI,
>> besides using a darker or clearer theme?
>> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>>
>>
>>
>> I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere"
>> thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.
>>
>> In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in
>> additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse",
>> "Alt Browse Scoped")
>>
>> Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane.
>> Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain
>> things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.
>>
>
> Like the Newspeak browser?
>

Don't know about that one.

>
>  Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the
>> "hier/flat" button gets tiring).
>>
>
> This one is difficult to solve.
>

Maybe a popup with the hierarchy would do (with some keybinding, like C-h)

>
>  I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using
>> it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.
>>
>
> I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches are
> well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back and forth
> between two GUIs.
>
> It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and Spotter.
> When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very similar GUI:
> context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the overall scheme),
> element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based browsers have done
> in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker browser).
>
> Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with
> object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by Alain
> Plantec in the Squeak days?
>
> Thierry
>
>  Phil
>>
>>
>>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[kilon alios]

The No1 thing that bothered me with Pharo was its white theme, found it
both horrible (yes much worse than Squeak) and very tiresome for my eyes.
Even worse was the white theme of Moose which made it impossible or really
hard to see scrollbars , for me, so it was also a problem of contrast not
just color.

Moving to Dark theme , fundamentally changed my experience with Pharo and
made coding much more relaxing. Then I decided to go one step further and
implement my own theme, a dark blue theme and add to it a gui tool to allow
for full customisation of colors (the theme with the tool are available
from configuration Browsers with the name Nireas). Blue is my favorite
color afterall, reminds me of sea, relaxing and full of positive energy.

In the end it comes down to what you like and what you find more enjoyable
to work with. For me it played a small role that the Dark theme is a new
thing with its own set of problem since the change of colors had such a
profound effect on my experience with Pharo.

I cannot imagine myself going back to the default theme, ever.

I would love to see more themes in the future, pink, yellow, brown, green
and much more.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 11:52 AM Stephan Eggermont  wrote:

> On 24/04/15 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:
> > Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love
> it,
> > and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>
> The advantages of a dark theme:
> - works well for photo/video apps where you don't want extra (colored)
> light;
> - works well in a dark environment;
> - provides little blue light, so doesn't influence sleep;
> - works for certain eye problems;
> don't apply to me much.
> I find reducing eye stress for me is mostly a question
> of adding more ambient light (also works well for my mood).
> In a light environment a light theme works much better.
>
> Stephan
>
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Marcus Denker]

> 
> The short term real life goals are:
> 
> - unify keyboard shortcuts. 
> - improve event handling so that the use of a magic mouse does not produce 
> dozens of events that make the UI go crazy
> 

Yes! 

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano :
> 
> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while 
> probably dated, is more “standard”. 
> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of the 
> time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I never 
> found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we need to 
> adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver 
> soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse 
> itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
> 
> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a 
> darker or clearer theme?
> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
> 
I like the way pharo4 took towards finding and navigating. With spotter it is 
easy to find an entry point to the image graph. With the gt inspector you can 
navigate the graph then. Bringing those tools closer together could make it 
even better. 
Now we have find and navigate we could also have some help in creating things 
which is prerequisite to finding and navigating. My dream would be that e.g. 
when you find a class spotter has an action with shortcut to create an instance 
of that class. The inspector has a tab with an editor that lets you enter 
values (or better ways to do it). Those could be created by an object meta 
description. This could be something like magritte. But I hope we manage to 
build a better magritte based on slots. 

The short term real life goals are:

- unify keyboard shortcuts. 
- improve event handling so that the use of a magic mouse does not produce 
dozens of events that make the UI go crazy

Norbert

> 
> 
>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
>> 
>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>> 
>> 
>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
>>> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sean
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Stephan Eggermont]

On 24/04/15 01:48, Sean P. DeNigris wrote:

Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.


The advantages of a dark theme:
- works well for photo/video apps where you don't want extra (colored) 
light;

- works well in a dark environment;
- provides little blue light, so doesn't influence sleep;
- works for certain eye problems;
don't apply to me much.
I find reducing eye stress for me is mostly a question
of adding more ambient light (also works well for my mood).
In a light environment a light theme works much better.

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Thierry Goubier]

Le 24/04/2015 10:11, p...@highoctane.be a écrit :



On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano mailto:esteba...@gmail.com>> wrote:

I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one,
while probably dated, is more “standard”.
Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine
most of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find
string dialog… I never found the time to fix it, and nobody
complained so… :P). Finally. we need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO
list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, I hope),
otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself
had it… we are just inheriting it :) )

But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI,
besides using a darker or clearer theme?
I would like to hear some opinions here :)



I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere"
thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.

In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in
additional entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse",
"Alt Browse Scoped")

Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane.
Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain
things to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.


Like the Newspeak browser?


Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the
"hier/flat" button gets tiring).


This one is difficult to solve.


I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using
it, need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.


I'm a bit: Spotter is an external tool to the browser. If my searches 
are well answered in the browser, I'll prefer to avoid switching back 
and forth between two GUIs.


It would be nice to have a closer integration between Browser and 
Spotter. When looking at methods, Spotter and AltBrowser show a very 
similar GUI: context tree on the left (i.e. where is the element in the 
overall scheme), element/work pane on the right. Like all the tree-based 
browsers have done in the past, really (the Star browser, the Whisker 
browser).


Which makes Spotter a kind of reimplementation of a tree browser with 
object-driven representations on the right... was that a project by 
Alain Plantec in the Squeak days?


Thierry


Phil

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Norbert Hartl]

> Am 24.04.2015 um 09:45 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe :
> 
> That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)

No, they weren't. I had my font setup and after applying the dark theme the 
fonts were changed. 

> And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste.
> The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision 
> problems.
> 
Sure, that's why I said "I don't like it". I used dark themes in the last 
decades. But the setup I had it was hard to orientate my eyes. Area borders 
were not contrasting to the rest. Having multiple windows overlap makes it 
really hard to distinguish. So, if this is the cure for anybody then it's good 
:)

Norbert
 
>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
>> 
>> That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't 
>> like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all 
>> things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for 
>> me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
>> 
>> thanks,
>> 
>> Norbert
>> 
>>> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano :
>>> 
>>> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while 
>>> probably dated, is more “standard”. 
>>> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of 
>>> the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I 
>>> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we 
>>> need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will 
>>> deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem 
>>> eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>>> 
>>> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using 
>>> a darker or clearer theme?
>>> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>>> 
>>> Esteban
>>> 
>>> 
 On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
 
 comments about color is to be taken with care.
 
 
 Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love 
> it,
> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
> 
> 
> 
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at 
> Nabble.com.
> 
> 
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 8:38 AM, Esteban Lorenzano 
wrote:

> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while
> probably dated, is more “standard”.
> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of
> the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I
> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we
> need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will
> deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem
> eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>
> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides
> using a darker or clearer theme?
> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>


I'd like to have some solution for that "windows popping up everywhere"
thing. AltBrowser has some good ideas.

In fact I'd like to have AltBrowser and Nautilus together (as in additional
entries in the "Browse", "Browse Scoped", ..."Alt Browse", "Alt Browse
Scoped")

Also, having a way to see a class with all the methods in a long pane.
Yeah, Smalltalk is all about short methods but it is hard to explain things
to people when looking at a ravioli at a time.

Navigating hierarchies should be made easier (switching on the "hier/flat"
button gets tiring).

I need to see how spotter will make this easier anyway. Still not using it,
need to bring all my code to 4.0 before.

Phil


>
> Esteban
>
>
> > On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
> >
> > comments about color is to be taken with care.
> >
> >
> > Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
> >> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love
> it,
> >> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> -
> >> Cheers,
> >> Sean
> >> --
> >> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
> >> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[p...@highoctane.be]

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 9:45 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:

> That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
> And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of
> taste.
> The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain
> vision problems.
>
> Exactly.
When you have floaters all day long, the last thing you want is a f*cking
white screen.

Now, I am using 3.0 with DawnTheme, which is more like SublimeText (in a
3.0).

I tried the 4.0 and it is nice. Now, icons should get a pass because the
artefacts on the edges are not nice.

If there is some little petty cash available, that's the kind of job that
can be done supercheap on something like https://en.99designs.be/. That
would be good use of consortium/association money for example.

Why bother with graphics work when you can get things done professionaly
for close to nil?

Phil







> > On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
> >
> > That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't
> like it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all
> things up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for
> me. Can someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
> >
> > thanks,
> >
> > Norbert
> >
> >> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano :
> >>
> >> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one,
> while probably dated, is more “standard”.
> >> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most
> of the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I
> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we
> need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will
> deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem
> eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
> >>
> >> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides
> using a darker or clearer theme?
> >> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
> >>
> >> Esteban
> >>
> >>
> >>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
> >>>
> >>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>  Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to
> love it,
>  and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
> 
> 
> 
>  -
>  Cheers,
>  Sean
>  --
>  View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>  Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
> 
> 
> >>>
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
>
>
>

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

That's a bit harsh, the fonts are the same ;-)
And it is of course possible that you don't like it, it is a matter of taste.
The contrast thing is also taste, but for some people it solve certain vision 
problems.

> On 24 Apr 2015, at 09:27, Norbert Hartl  wrote:
> 
> That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like 
> it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things 
> up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can 
> someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?
> 
> thanks,
> 
> Norbert
> 
>> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano :
>> 
>> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while 
>> probably dated, is more “standard”. 
>> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of 
>> the time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I 
>> never found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we 
>> need to adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will 
>> deliver soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem 
>> eclipse itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
>> 
>> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using 
>> a darker or clearer theme?
>> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
>> 
>> Esteban
>> 
>> 
>>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
>>> 
>>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
 Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
 and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
 
 
 
 -
 Cheers,
 Sean
 --
 View this message in context: 
 http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
 Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at 
 Nabble.com.
 
 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Norbert Hartl]

That's funny because I tried it two days ago the first time and I didn't like 
it. I had troubles to get anything but bitmap fonts. After setting all things 
up I was a bit disappointed that contrast wise it doesn't work for me. Can 
someone send a screenshot with one setup that he/she considers good?

thanks,

Norbert

> Am 24.04.2015 um 08:38 schrieb Esteban Lorenzano :
> 
> I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while 
> probably dated, is more “standard”. 
> Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of the 
> time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I never 
> found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we need to 
> adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver 
> soon, I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse 
> itself had it… we are just inheriting it :) )
> 
> But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a 
> darker or clearer theme?
> I would like to hear some opinions here :)
> 
> Esteban
> 
> 
>> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
>> 
>> comments about color is to be taken with care.
>> 
>> 
>> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>>> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
>>> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -
>>> Cheers,
>>> Sean
>>> --
>>> View this message in context: 
>>> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Esteban Lorenzano]

I disagree… DarkTheme is just for certain tastes, while regular one, while 
probably dated, is more “standard”. 
Also, DarkTheme is not ready. yeah, yeah… it works and works fine most of the 
time… but not *all* the time (take for example find string dialog… I never 
found the time to fix it, and nobody complained so… :P). Finally. we need to 
adopt SVG icons (in my TODO list since a couple of months, I will deliver soon, 
I hope), otherwise they do not look good (this is a problem eclipse itself had 
it… we are just inheriting it :) )

But a good question would be: How can we push forward our UI, besides using a 
darker or clearer theme?
I would like to hear some opinions here :)

Esteban


> On 24 Apr 2015, at 08:33, stepharo  wrote:
> 
> comments about color is to be taken with care.
> 
> 
> Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :
>> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
>> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -
>> Cheers,
>> Sean
>> --
>> View this message in context: 
>> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
>> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> 
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[stepharo]

comments about color is to be taken with care.


Le 24/4/15 02:48, Sean P. DeNigris a écrit :

Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Ben Coman]

Its a bit late to make such a prominent change.
Maybe in the Welcome info just note how to activate it.
cheers -ben

On Fri, Apr 24, 2015 at 7:48 AM, Sean P. DeNigris 
wrote:

> Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
> and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.
>
>
>
> -
> Cheers,
> Sean
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at
> Nabble.com.
>
>

[Pharo-dev] Release with Dark Theme

[Sean P. DeNigris]

Why didn't/don't we make it the default for 4.0? Everyone seems to love it,
and people are commenting that the UI looks dated.



-
Cheers,
Sean
--
View this message in context: 
http://forum.world.st/Release-with-Dark-Theme-tp4821496.html
Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Developers mailing list archive at Nabble.com.