Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Damien Cassou]

On Fri, Jun 28, 2013 at 1:02 AM, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
> The VM from the ppa installs just the necessary 32 bit libs for it to
> run, I think in the VM directory.


not quite. The VM from the ppa depends on just the necessary 32 bit
libs provided as deb files by Ubuntu. This means that these libs, you
will have a 32 and 64 bit package on your system

--
Damien Cassou
http://damiencassou.seasidehosting.st

"Success is the ability to go from one failure to another without
losing enthusiasm."
Winston Churchill

Re: [Pharo-users] implementing #release in a domain object

[Norbert Hartl]

Am 27.06.2013 um 21:07 schrieb Igor Stasenko :

> but in russian version (a graph), an admiral's dauther is married on
> one of the fleet's captains, and admiral, by knowing that gives order
> only to all but the ship where captain is in command. But that captain
> is friend with captain of another ship, and he asks admiral to find a
> way to keep that guy too and that guy can also has friends on other
> ships..
> and so on.. so at the end, only those who has no friends will be
> fired.. but those who having them, will stay :)

It will stay that way until the level of vodka supply will drop below a 
critical amount. What then? Implement a russian roulette GC? :) At least in 
Linux they did it that way and it is called OOM killer :)

Norbert

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Norbert Hartl]

Am 27.06.2013 um 20:51 schrieb Sven Van Caekenberghe :

> 
> On 27 Jun 2013, at 20:41, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
> 
>> On 27 June 2013 18:32, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
>>> I told you: 2 man/month
>>> (not taking NB-FFI into account)
>> That is a bit optimistic :)
>> But reasonable.
> 
> Just to be clear: the goal is to make the current Cog & Stack VMs decent 
> 64-bit apps that can operate on a 64-bit OS without needing special/extra 
> 32-bit libs, while keeping intact the current 32-bit internal memory/pointer 
> model, right ?
> 
> And that on all 3 platforms ?
> 
> Make that at least 3 months ;-) 
> 
I think that even this time frame is too optimistic!

Norbert
>>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
 so much?
 how many men/months?
 
 Stef
 
 On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
 
> On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
>> opportunity
>> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
>> 
>> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
> 
> depends what you put into it:
> - interpreter + plugins
> - new object/image format (64bit)
> - 64-bit jit
> 
>> Stef
> 
> 
> --
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Package Browser

[Stephan Eggermont]

Hi Rob,

Good to see you here too. There is no online list of former ESUG board members,
is there?

You probably want to look at p119-126 in PBE and then some chapters in PBE2:
- Managing projects with Metacello 
- Gofer: Scripting package loading
- Versioning your code with Monticello

Monticello packages are 'interesting' for someone coming from VW.
Infrastructure is changing there, being replaced by RPackage & friends.

The package name in Monticello decides which categories belong to it.

Stephan

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Paul DeBruicker]

The VM from the ppa installs just the necessary 32 bit libs for it to
run, I think in the VM directory.  To run an older VM you have to do it
yourself with the ia32-libs:multiarch package. And of course you don't
need all the libs provided by that package but I'm not sure what you do
and don't need.







On 06/27/2013 03:39 PM, ubuntourist wrote:
>> You'll need to install ia32-libs:multiarch I think if you haven't.
> 
> That's what I meant about older parts for a newer car.  You're right,
> but so far, I've managed to avoid putting the 32-bit libraries on this
> system.
> 
>> Pharo is 32bits.
> 
> The newer Pharo appears to be 64-bit.
> 
> 
> View this message in context: Re: Package browser?
> 
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive
>  at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Camillo Bruni]

On 2013-06-28, at 00:40, ubuntourist  wrote:

>> You'll need to install ia32-libs:multiarch I think if you haven't.
> 
> That's what I meant about older parts for a newer car.  You're right,
> but so far, I've managed to avoid putting the 32-bit libraries on this
> system.
> 
>> Pharo is 32bits.
> 
> The newer Pharo appears to be 64-bit.

Nope, there is no 64bit Pharo, yet :/

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[ubuntourist]

> You'll need to install ia32-libs:multiarch I think if you haven't.

That's what I meant about older parts for a newer car.  You're right,
but so far, I've managed to avoid putting the 32-bit libraries on this
system.

> Pharo is 32bits.

The newer Pharo appears to be 64-bit.




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Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Paul DeBruicker]

You'll need to install ia32-libs:multiarch I think if you haven't.
Pharo is 32bits.





On 06/27/2013 03:17 PM, ubuntourist wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Paul DeBruicker [via Smalltalk]
> <[hidden email] > wrote:
> 
>> Its probably more helpful to think of it like learning to drive a car.
>> Yes we may want to learn and be taught in the family's brand new car but
>> you can get the hang of things equally well in the 7 yr old sedan. The
>> differences between not knowing how to drive and knowing how to drive
>> are smaller than the differences between the cars.
> 
> Nope. The difference is that one car actually runs, and the other one
> requires searching the scrap heap for old parts when you already have
> newer parts available.
> 
> $ cd PBE-OneClick-1.1.app
> $ ./pharo.sh
> ./Contents/Linux/squeakvm: error while loading shared libraries:
> libuuid.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
> directory
> 
> $ locate libuuid.so.1
> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1
> /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1.3.0
> 
> 
> View this message in context: Re: Package browser?
> 
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive
>  at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[ubuntourist]

On Thu, Jun 27, 2013 at 5:45 PM, Paul DeBruicker [via Smalltalk]
 wrote:

> Its probably more helpful to think of it like learning to drive a car.
> Yes we may want to learn and be taught in the family's brand new car but
> you can get the hang of things equally well in the 7 yr old sedan. The
> differences between not knowing how to drive and knowing how to drive
> are smaller than the differences between the cars.

Nope. The difference is that one car actually runs, and the other one
requires searching the scrap heap for old parts when you already have
newer parts available.

$ cd PBE-OneClick-1.1.app
$ ./pharo.sh
./Contents/Linux/squeakvm: error while loading shared libraries:
libuuid.so.1: cannot open shared object file: No such file or
directory

$ locate libuuid.so.1
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1
/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1.3.0




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Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Marcus Denker]

On Jun 28, 2013, at 12:05 AM, ubuntourist  wrote:

> OK.  I surrender. ;-) 
> 
> So, not liking unnecessary clutter, can I pare down the Pharo + 
> Kitchen Sink ZIP file (OneClick)? It looks like the only things I'd 
> need from that are the Contents/Linux and Contents/Resources 
> directories (and the shell script to launch the pieces properly). Yes?


-> either install the ubuntu package

OR:

-> Download not the One-Click but just the linux version:

http://www.pharo-project.org/pharo-download/release-2-0

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Paul DeBruicker]

Yes I think so.

On 06/27/2013 03:04 PM, ubuntourist wrote:
> OK.  I surrender. ;-)
> 
> So, not liking unnecessary clutter, can I pare down the Pharo +
> Kitchen Sink ZIP file (OneClick)? It looks like the only things I'd
> need from that are the Contents/Linux and Contents/Resources
> directories (and the shell script to launch the pieces properly). Yes?
> 
> 
> View this message in context: Re: Package browser?
> 
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive
>  at Nabble.com.

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[ubuntourist]

OK.  I surrender. ;-)

So, not liking unnecessary clutter, can I pare down the Pharo +
Kitchen Sink ZIP file (OneClick)? It looks like the only things I'd
need from that are the Contents/Linux and Contents/Resources
directories (and the shell script to launch the pieces properly). Yes?




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Re: [Pharo-users] how to use RBClassRegexRefactoring in Pharo 2 ?

[Camillo Bruni]

On 2013-06-27, at 23:45, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:

> On 06/27/2013 02:38 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote:
>> 
>> On 2013-06-27, at 20:36, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
>>> In Nautilus when I try to use the 'Class Regex' menu item in Pharo 2
>>> 20605 I get an error that RBRegexClassRefactoring is an existing class
>>> in the system.  In earlier Pharo versions you would select that menu
>>> item, make your changes, save them and then the refactoring would run.
>>> How do you do it now?
>> 
>> Where do you have this menu? I couldn't find it in Nautilus :/
>> 
> 
> Ahh.  Right click on a class name in the class list pane, then choose
> 
> Refactoring > Code Rewriting > Class Regex

Ok, better, now I can reproduce it :), 

However I don't think this will be fixed in 2.0, sorry.
That is a too "exotic" feature. Currently 2.0 is in stable mode, so we do as 
little
changes to that system as possible, mainly "real"/"big" bugs (highly subjective 
;))

I'll open a bug report for 3.0 though

https://pharo.fogbugz.com/default.asp?11052

thanks for reporting

Re: [Pharo-users] how to use RBClassRegexRefactoring in Pharo 2 ?

[Paul DeBruicker]

On 06/27/2013 02:38 PM, Camillo Bruni wrote:
> 
> On 2013-06-27, at 20:36, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
>> In Nautilus when I try to use the 'Class Regex' menu item in Pharo 2
>> 20605 I get an error that RBRegexClassRefactoring is an existing class
>> in the system.  In earlier Pharo versions you would select that menu
>> item, make your changes, save them and then the refactoring would run.
>> How do you do it now?
> 
> Where do you have this menu? I couldn't find it in Nautilus :/
> 

Ahh.  Right click on a class name in the class list pane, then choose

Refactoring > Code Rewriting > Class Regex

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Paul DeBruicker]

Hi ubuntourist,

Its probably more helpful to think of it like learning to drive a car.
Yes we may want to learn and be taught in the family's brand new car but
you can get the hang of things equally well in the 7 yr old sedan. The
differences between not knowing how to drive and knowing how to drive
are smaller than the differences between the cars.

Other than the BouncingAtomsMorph the things you mention as missing are
in the new image but look and act a little differently.  Start with the
old stuff to get the concepts. When you move to the new stuff it'll be
like learning to drive a stick shift after getting your license in an
automatic.


Ask questions plenty of questions.


Good luck

Paul








On 06/27/2013 02:21 PM, ubuntourist wrote:
> I am just starting with Pharo and would like to learn what is being offered
> at www.pharo-project.org.  (I'm also partial to Ubuntu packages, for which
> the Pharo Project site helpfully provides instructions.)  However,  all
> tutorial documentation seems to point to a VM and image that are four years
> old.
> 
> Is there any attempt at providing a PBE image that works with a current VM
> or documentation that matches the VM and image offered? 
> 
> Since the examples (BouncingAtomsMorph, package browser, class browser,
> button / menu settings) don't appear to be there for the newer VM and image
> -- at least not in ways that are obvious to a newcomer, is there a point to
> learning something that is obsolete?  (Or, alternatively, is there a point
> in learning the new Pharo?) I'd rather not learn something and then have to
> immediately unlearn / forget it.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://forum.world.st/Package-browser-tp3321070p4695809.html
> Sent from the Pharo Smalltalk Users mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[Marcus Denker]

On Jun 27, 2013, at 11:22 PM, ubuntourist  wrote:

> I am just starting with Pharo and would like to learn what is being offered
> at www.pharo-project.org.  (I'm also partial to Ubuntu packages, for which
> the Pharo Project site helpfully provides instructions.)  However,  all
> tutorial documentation seems to point to a VM and image that are four years
> old.
> 
> Is there any attempt at providing a PBE image that works with a current VM
> or documentation that matches the VM and image offered? 
> 
> Since the examples (BouncingAtomsMorph, package browser, class browser,
> button / menu settings) don't appear to be there for the newer VM and image
> -- at least not in ways that are obvious to a newcomer, is there a point to
> learning something that is obsolete?  (Or, alternatively, is there a point
> in learning the new Pharo?) I'd rather not learn something and then have to
> immediately unlearn / forget it.
> 


We really need to update the PBE book… but I wonder how. 

Marcus

Re: [Pharo-users] how to use RBClassRegexRefactoring in Pharo 2 ?

[Camillo Bruni]

On 2013-06-27, at 20:36, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
> In Nautilus when I try to use the 'Class Regex' menu item in Pharo 2
> 20605 I get an error that RBRegexClassRefactoring is an existing class
> in the system.  In earlier Pharo versions you would select that menu
> item, make your changes, save them and then the refactoring would run.
> How do you do it now?

Where do you have this menu? I couldn't find it in Nautilus :/

Re: [Pharo-users] Package browser?

[ubuntourist]

I am just starting with Pharo and would like to learn what is being offered
at www.pharo-project.org.  (I'm also partial to Ubuntu packages, for which
the Pharo Project site helpfully provides instructions.)  However,  all
tutorial documentation seems to point to a VM and image that are four years
old.

Is there any attempt at providing a PBE image that works with a current VM
or documentation that matches the VM and image offered? 

Since the examples (BouncingAtomsMorph, package browser, class browser,
button / menu settings) don't appear to be there for the newer VM and image
-- at least not in ways that are obvious to a newcomer, is there a point to
learning something that is obsolete?  (Or, alternatively, is there a point
in learning the new Pharo?) I'd rather not learn something and then have to
immediately unlearn / forget it.





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Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Igor Stasenko]

On 27 June 2013 20:51, Sven Van Caekenberghe  wrote:
>
> On 27 Jun 2013, at 20:41, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
>
>> On 27 June 2013 18:32, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
>>> I told you: 2 man/month
>>> (not taking NB-FFI into account)
>>>
>> That is a bit optimistic :)
>> But reasonable.
>
> Just to be clear: the goal is to make the current Cog & Stack VMs decent 
> 64-bit apps that can operate on a 64-bit OS without needing special/extra 
> 32-bit libs, while keeping intact the current 32-bit internal memory/pointer 
> model, right ?
>
> And that on all 3 platforms ?
>
> Make that at least 3 months ;-)
>

Be careful with using 'decent'.
Because to my opinion, i cannot call even our today's 32-bit VMs decent.
They are OK as to me. But i want more/better etc before i can call them decent.
:)

-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Re: [Pharo-users] implementing #release in a domain object

[Igor Stasenko]

On 27 June 2013 14:54, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
> On 06/27/2013 12:48 AM, Camillo Bruni wrote:
>>
>> On 2013-06-27, at 01:08, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
>>
>>> Sven & Camillo,
>>>
>>> Ok thanks.  And using the PointerFinder is there a way to know which of
>>> the pointers points to the SystemDictionary or Object someObject or
>>> whereever the GC begins so one would not have to check every pointer for
>>> every stubborn object.
>>>
>>> E.g. Lets say I've nil'ed the reference between the Navy and the ship so
>>> its ready to go but a few of the soldiers on the ship have references to
>>> other ships because their transfer papers weren't processed properly.
>>> Running #pointersTo on those soldiers gives a large collection of
>>> pointers.
>>>
>>>
>>> How can I use the computer to filter that list to just those references
>>> back to the root object?
>>
>> What do you mean by root object?
>>
>
> I'm sure my understanding is not completely accurate but by 'root
> object' I mean whichever object (memory space? pointer?) the VM always
> considers as part of the object-space-to-keep when it begins a full GC.
> So every object which is kept implicitly points to that object through a
> long chain (web?) of pointers.
>
yes, but in opposite direction.
consider yourself a painter which start painting nodes , starting from
root ones,
then paint ones which they pointing to, then paint ones which those
was pointing to (unless they already painted)
and so on.. continue until you have nothing to paint left.
Then the nodes which remain unpainted is garbage.

If your objects connected via tree pattern, then everything goes well:
- high command gives an order to admiral to disassemble his fleet,
sink ships with all crew on board
- admiral gives commands to captains, they give orders to officers and
officers to rest of crew
- when lower chain of command completes the order, the higher ones can
commit suicide and finally captains press the button to open
kingstones and die with ship.
- finally admiral will do a harakiri

(so, that will be perfect japanese version :)

but in russian version (a graph), an admiral's dauther is married on
one of the fleet's captains, and admiral, by knowing that gives order
only to all but the ship where captain is in command. But that captain
is friend with captain of another ship, and he asks admiral to find a
way to keep that guy too and that guy can also has friends on other
ships..
and so on.. so at the end, only those who has no friends will be
fired.. but those who having them, will stay :)



>
>
>
>> In any case, if I'm not mistaken, this isn't that easy. Usually you have
>> to manually track down and follow the objects in the PointerExplorer
>>
>> => Inspect an Object, right click, Explore Strong Pointers
>>
>>
>>
>
> OK.  I can imagine a Roassal visualization of a rats nest of objects as
> nodes connected with edges made with #pointsTo: with just a few edges
> connecting the main blob (e.g. the navy) to objects (soldiers) in a
> smaller blob (the ship I want to GC).  Kind of like the visualization
> Craig Latta uses as the header for his blog and describes here:
> https://thiscontext.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/a-detailed-description-of-spoons-object-memory-visualization-tools/
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Sven Van Caekenberghe]

On 27 Jun 2013, at 20:41, Igor Stasenko  wrote:

> On 27 June 2013 18:32, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
>> I told you: 2 man/month
>> (not taking NB-FFI into account)
>> 
> That is a bit optimistic :)
> But reasonable.

Just to be clear: the goal is to make the current Cog & Stack VMs decent 64-bit 
apps that can operate on a 64-bit OS without needing special/extra 32-bit libs, 
while keeping intact the current 32-bit internal memory/pointer model, right ?

And that on all 3 platforms ?

Make that at least 3 months ;-) 

>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  
>> wrote:
>> 
>>> so much?
>>> how many men/months?
>>> 
>>> Stef
>>> 
>>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
>>> 
 On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
> Hi
> 
> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
> opportunity
> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
> 
> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
> 
 
 depends what you put into it:
 - interpreter + plugins
 - new object/image format (64bit)
 - 64-bit jit
 
> Stef
 
 
 --
 Best regards,
 Igor Stasenko.
 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Igor Stasenko]

On 27 June 2013 18:32, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
> I told you: 2 man/month
> (not taking NB-FFI into account)
>
That is a bit optimistic :)
But reasonable.

> On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  
> wrote:
>
>> so much?
>> how many men/months?
>>
>> Stef
>>
>> On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
>>
>>> On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
 Hi

 we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
 opportunity
 to get a crowdsource donate button for it?

 Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?

>>>
>>> depends what you put into it:
>>> - interpreter + plugins
>>> - new object/image format (64bit)
>>> - 64-bit jit
>>>
 Stef
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Best regards,
>>> Igor Stasenko.
>>>
>>
>>
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

[Pharo-users] how to use RBClassRegexRefactoring in Pharo 2 ?

[Paul DeBruicker]

Hi-

In Nautilus when I try to use the 'Class Regex' menu item in Pharo 2
20605 I get an error that RBRegexClassRefactoring is an existing class
in the system.  In earlier Pharo versions you would select that menu
item, make your changes, save them and then the refactoring would run.
How do you do it now?


Thanks

Paul

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Esteban Lorenzano]

I told you: 2 man/month
(not taking NB-FFI into account)

On Jun 27, 2013, at 6:26 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:

> so much?
> how many men/months?
> 
> Stef
> 
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:
> 
>> On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
>>> Hi
>>> 
>>> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
>>> opportunity
>>> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
>>> 
>>> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
>>> 
>> 
>> depends what you put into it:
>> - interpreter + plugins
>> - new object/image format (64bit)
>> - 64-bit jit
>> 
>>> Stef
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Best regards,
>> Igor Stasenko.
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Stéphane Ducasse]

so much?
how many men/months?

Stef

On Jun 27, 2013, at 3:02 PM, Igor Stasenko  wrote:

> On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
>> Hi
>> 
>> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
>> opportunity
>> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
>> 
>> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
>> 
> 
> depends what you put into it:
> - interpreter + plugins
> - new object/image format (64bit)
> - 64-bit jit
> 
>> Stef
> 
> 
> -- 
> Best regards,
> Igor Stasenko.
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Igor Stasenko]

On 27 June 2013 14:48, Esteban Lorenzano  wrote:
> honestly, depends a lot on who will do it.
>
> basically, I see 3 parts:
>
> 1) The Stack VM 64bits
> 2) The Pharo image 64bits.
> 3) NB-FFI 64 (No point on having a VM who cannot talk with the outside world)
>
> a future task could be create a JIT, but I complete ignorant on how 
> difficult/possible is that :)
>
> To compile the stack vm in 64 bits is not difficult, but there is a lot of 
> small tweaks to make... so I think 1 man-month should be enough .
> To produce a 64bits pharo image we need an objecttracer and Guille says 
> with ObjectSpaces is a lot easier... but again, it has to be done... I think 
> another month should be enough.
>
> ... and with NB-FFI 64, no idea, but AFAIK is almost there (Camillo knows 
> more there)
> also, 1 and 2 are vital, and we can tune 3 with the VM+Image working.
>
> That's my (very general) opinion.
>

ah.. yes.. FFI too. That shouldn't be very difficult but cannot start
work on it unless other two is ready.
(it needs to know about object format and other stuff to generate proper code)

> Esteban
>
> On Jun 27, 2013, at 2:16 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  
> wrote:
>
>> Hi
>>
>> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
>> opportunity
>> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
>>
>> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
>>
>> Stef
>
>



-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Re: [Pharo-users] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Igor Stasenko]

On 27 June 2013 14:16, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
> Hi
>
> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
> opportunity
> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
>
> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
>

depends what you put into it:
 - interpreter + plugins
 - new object/image format (64bit)
 - 64-bit jit

> Stef


-- 
Best regards,
Igor Stasenko.

Re: [Pharo-users] implementing #release in a domain object

[Paul DeBruicker]

On 06/27/2013 12:48 AM, Camillo Bruni wrote:
> 
> On 2013-06-27, at 01:08, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
> 
>> Sven & Camillo,
>>
>> Ok thanks.  And using the PointerFinder is there a way to know which of
>> the pointers points to the SystemDictionary or Object someObject or
>> whereever the GC begins so one would not have to check every pointer for
>> every stubborn object.
>>
>> E.g. Lets say I've nil'ed the reference between the Navy and the ship so
>> its ready to go but a few of the soldiers on the ship have references to
>> other ships because their transfer papers weren't processed properly.
>> Running #pointersTo on those soldiers gives a large collection of
>> pointers.
>>
>>
>> How can I use the computer to filter that list to just those references
>> back to the root object?
> 
> What do you mean by root object?
> 

I'm sure my understanding is not completely accurate but by 'root
object' I mean whichever object (memory space? pointer?) the VM always
considers as part of the object-space-to-keep when it begins a full GC.
So every object which is kept implicitly points to that object through a
long chain (web?) of pointers.




> In any case, if I'm not mistaken, this isn't that easy. Usually you have
> to manually track down and follow the objects in the PointerExplorer
> 
> => Inspect an Object, right click, Explore Strong Pointers
> 
> 
> 

OK.  I can imagine a Roassal visualization of a rats nest of objects as
nodes connected with edges made with #pointsTo: with just a few edges
connecting the main blob (e.g. the navy) to objects (soldiers) in a
smaller blob (the ship I want to GC).  Kind of like the visualization
Craig Latta uses as the header for his blog and describes here:
https://thiscontext.wordpress.com/2012/10/22/a-detailed-description-of-spoons-object-memory-visualization-tools/

Re: [Pharo-users] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Esteban Lorenzano]

honestly, depends a lot on who will do it. 

basically, I see 3 parts: 

1) The Stack VM 64bits
2) The Pharo image 64bits.
3) NB-FFI 64 (No point on having a VM who cannot talk with the outside world)

a future task could be create a JIT, but I complete ignorant on how 
difficult/possible is that :)

To compile the stack vm in 64 bits is not difficult, but there is a lot of 
small tweaks to make... so I think 1 man-month should be enough . 
To produce a 64bits pharo image we need an objecttracer and Guille says 
with ObjectSpaces is a lot easier... but again, it has to be done... I think 
another month should be enough. 

... and with NB-FFI 64, no idea, but AFAIK is almost there (Camillo knows more 
there)
also, 1 and 2 are vital, and we can tune 3 with the VM+Image working. 

That's my (very general) opinion.

Esteban

On Jun 27, 2013, at 2:16 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:

> Hi 
> 
> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
> opportunity 
> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
> 
> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
> 
> Stef

Re: [Pharo-users] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Paul DeBruicker]

Do you want a donate button or a crowdsource campaign where no one is
charged unless $x0,000 is raised?  http://www.indiegogo.com/ is a
platform for the latter.


On 06/27/2013 05:16 AM, Stéphane Ducasse wrote:
> Hi 
> 
> we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
> opportunity 
> to get a crowdsource donate button for it?
> 
> Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?
> 
> Stef
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] implementing #release in a domain object

[Norbert Hartl]

Am 27.06.2013 um 01:07 schrieb Paul DeBruicker :

> Sven & Camillo,
> 
> Ok thanks.  And using the PointerFinder is there a way to know which of
> the pointers points to the SystemDictionary or Object someObject or
> whereever the GC begins so one would not have to check every pointer for
> every stubborn object.
> 
> E.g. Lets say I've nil'ed the reference between the Navy and the ship so
> its ready to go but a few of the soldiers on the ship have references to
> other ships because their transfer papers weren't processed properly.
> Running #pointersTo on those soldiers gives a large collection of
> pointers.
> 
> 
> How can I use the computer to filter that list to just those references
> back to the root object?
> 
One by one. You only get the list of objects holding a pointer to the object in 
question. Having those objects you would need to search for pointers other 
objects have to them. While trying to analyze the situation it might be a good 
idea to do a "Smalltalk garbageCollect" in between to get rid of the objects 
that aren't connected but haven't garbage collected yet.

Norbert
> 
> 
> Thanks for you help
> 
> Paul
> 
> On 06/26/2013 03:37 PM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote:
>> Paul,
>> 
>> On 26 Jun 2013, at 23:47, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:
>> 
>>> Lets say I'm modeling a navy that is comprised of many ships each with
>>> their own soldiers and jobs.  If I want one of the ships to be GC'd do I
>>> need to implement #release in the soldier and job objects and send it to
>>> each of those soldiers and jobs that live and work on the ship I want
>>> GC'd or is removing the references between the ship and the navy enough
>>> to have the whole ship (including its soldiers and jobs)  GC'd?
>> 
>> GC is automatic memory management. Whenever something is no longer reachable 
>> by following pointers from a a know starting set, the system dictionary, the 
>> stack and some other places, it automatically becomes garbage and the memory 
>> it occupies will be reused.
>> 
>> Of course, if you keep a reference to an object, on purpose or by accident, 
>> the object will never become garbage and it will keep on occupying memory. 
>> Especially circular references can be hard to track.
>> 
>> There are indeed a couple of common messages that are sometimes used to 
>> break possible references by nilling out instance variables etc. #close, 
>> #stop, #unregister and indeed #release. Often, these are also used to manage 
>> external resources (open files, sockets …). You can use any message to do 
>> this, there is no framework that you have to follow.
>> 
>> And then there are also finalization and weak references, which are related, 
>> but more advanced.
>> 
>> Sven
>> 
> 
> 

[Pharo-users] How do can we set up a crowdsourcing for pharo

[Stéphane Ducasse]

Hi 

we got this discussion about the VM on 64 bits so do we try to take the 
opportunity 
to get a crowdsource donate button for it?

Esteban/igor what is your estimate for such task?

Stef

[Pharo-users] Fwd: You've reached 100 views on SlideShare!

[Stéphane Ducasse]

100 looks small :)
http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject

Stef

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Re: [Pharo-users] implementing #release in a domain object

[Camillo Bruni]

On 2013-06-27, at 01:08, Paul DeBruicker  wrote:

> Sven & Camillo,
> 
> Ok thanks.  And using the PointerFinder is there a way to know which of
> the pointers points to the SystemDictionary or Object someObject or
> whereever the GC begins so one would not have to check every pointer for
> every stubborn object.
> 
> E.g. Lets say I've nil'ed the reference between the Navy and the ship so
> its ready to go but a few of the soldiers on the ship have references to
> other ships because their transfer papers weren't processed properly.
> Running #pointersTo on those soldiers gives a large collection of
> pointers.
> 
> 
> How can I use the computer to filter that list to just those references
> back to the root object?

What do you mean by root object?

In any case, if I'm not mistaken, this isn't that easy. Usually you have
to manually track down and follow the objects in the PointerExplorer

=> Inspect an Object, right click, Explore Strong Pointers

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] Slide share

[Stéphane Ducasse]

Ok so they try to influence the user by giving wrong information. 
I will continue to upload the slides then.

Stef
On Jun 27, 2013, at 8:58 AM, Marcus Denker  wrote:

> 
> On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:13 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  
> wrote:
>> 
>>  http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/
>> 
> 
> 
>> Do you know if there are limits on the number of presentations that we can 
>> upload, because 
>> I see (get public on this presentation => go pro).
>> So I wonder if I want to invest in slideshare.
> 
> I think it is not limited for number of uploads. Just size of the file that 
> is limited (to 100MB).
> 
> More here:
>   http://www.slideshare.net/business/premium/plans
> 
>   Marcus
> 
> 
> 

Re: [Pharo-users] [Pharo-dev] Slide share

[Marcus Denker]

On Jun 26, 2013, at 9:13 PM, Stéphane Ducasse  wrote:
> 
>   http://www.slideshare.net/pharoproject/
> 


> Do you know if there are limits on the number of presentations that we can 
> upload, because 
> I see (get public on this presentation => go pro).
> So I wonder if I want to invest in slideshare.

I think it is not limited for number of uploads. Just size of the file that is 
limited (to 100MB).

More here:
http://www.slideshare.net/business/premium/plans

Marcus