Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Melvyn Sopacua]

At 17:12 29-7-2002, Thomas Seifert wrote:

>On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:59:31 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sebastian Nohn) wrote:
>
> > We were running 4.0.4pl1 for more than one year, then we needed some new
> > features and installed 4.1.2, 4.2.0, 4.2.1. No! We did'nt want to install
> > 4.2.0 or 4.2.1 bescause we liked to, or we needed any new feature or our
> > sysadmin wanted to install this, we simple wanted to get a running
> > enviroment. It was pure hell and it is still! These releases were'nt even
> > able to do the most simple things like sorting arrays, creating files &
> > directorys, diff'ing arrays and so on.
>
>I have used all these versions in production and didn't have any problems 
>in the
>parts you are talking about.

He's definetely not alone in this area. For obvious reasons (more people 
developing on
and testing) linux support is mostly sufficient. Other - especially the 
more obscure
unices and non 32-bit platforms - have issues, that break simple 
operations, required
for production use.

4.3 addresses a number of issues with BSD's and resolver functions, that 
have been
ill-configured since 4.0 (and reported and tried patching) just to name an 
example.

And with PHP really taking of the bugs come in, cause as we all know - the 
real test
is production use.

>maybe you have certain circumstances which should be tested on QA?

QA is in development also :-)
Really - James Cox is working on some new and improved tools to aid QA 
testing and
analyzing, but what it really needs is reports from people who are willing 
to put RC
releases into production for a few hours, to see what comes up under 
extreme (read
end-user abuse) circumstances.


Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards,

Webmaster IDG.nl
Melvyn Sopacua


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

> -Original Message-
> From: Xavier Spriet [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 7:09 PM
> To: Sebastian Nohn
> Subject: RE: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?
>
>
> I think focus should be put to making sure the important bugs you are
> referring to are fixed in the next release of course.
> However, I am wondering...

> Which ones of your bug reports are not fixed in CVS or snaps ?

http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=18623 (reported today, so I don't expect it
to be fixed)

http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=7472
http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=16063
http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=16068

But I was asking for a release. http://bugs.php.net/bug.php?id=17449 for
example was fixed a long time before 4.2.2 it's still not in the release.

> You are asking for a bug-free version of PHP, yet, you were asking for
> the release of a PHP 4.2.3 _Release Candidate_ 1 ?

Yes! But a release candidate leads to a relase, right? I wanted to test all
the bugs affecting me on my platforms.

> You might also want to consider downgrading your version of PHP since it
> seems older versions were working fine for you ?

Impossible due to features in current PHP Versions I need. I stayed for a
very long time on 4.0.4pl1

> How is the Quality Assurance team responsible for the fact that
> administrators are not aware of snaps.php.net ?

Did I ever make any accusations? I just wanted to suggest to make a stable
version of PHP again but it seems nobody but me needs one...

And again: It's not _normal_ to use development versions (it does'nt matter
if STABLE or HEAD, everything from snaps.php.net is a development version)
because they are more stable.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Dan Kalowsky]

On Mon, 29 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> I don't _need_ a 4.2.3. I need a bug-free PHP version. 4.3.0 will bring a
> lot of new features, so everything will start from the beginning again. New
> features = new bugs.

As I stated earlier, you are welcome to help ensure that this won't be the
case.  The best thing you can do is become extremely involved in the RC
process and testing.  I haven't personally experiences many of the
problems you claim, but I don't doubt their existance.

> > The end points being these, are your bugs fixed in CVS head?  From what
> > I've gathered, yes.
>
> Some are, some are not.

Please make a note of which are not, and try to make them as
show-stoppers.  That denoatation is ultimately upto the Build-Master, but
if we don't know what they are... etc etc you know the rest.

> I don't think, I have enought knowledge of C to do this.

Time to brush up, or learn a lot ;)

>---<
Dan Kalowsky"A little less conversation,
http://www.deadmime.org/~danka little more action."
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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

> -Original Message-
> From: Dan Kalowsky [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Monday, July 29, 2002 5:13 PM
> To: Sebastian Nohn
> Cc: PHP Quality Assurance Team Mailing List; PHP Developers Mailing
> List; Melvyn Sopacua
> Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?
>
>
> > Nobody needs 4.3 with 1000 new features, everybody needs a PHP
> > Version that has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1
> > fixing the so far closed bugs would be great. I have _SERIOUS_ problems
with

> I would disagree with this statement.  PHP 4-CVS currently makes support
> for MacOSX possible.  While I see this being not so important in your

This is the first argument for PHP 4.3.0 I can agree with. You're right, I
don't need an OS X - Version but I see that it is useful to a lot of people.

> But regardless, Sebastian your points are all valid on why a 4.2.3 should
> be made.  I think you forget things though like the amount of time each RC

I don't _need_ a 4.2.3. I need a bug-free PHP version. 4.3.0 will bring a
lot of new features, so everything will start from the beginning again. New
features = new bugs.

> takes, the amount of resources, and the lack of response each one
> generates.  The number of people submitting comments on RCs for 64bit
> archs is even less.

I guess this mostly comes from a not existing click-and-be-happy-System.
During 4.1 and 4.2 QA-process there were some test-cases; Everyone had to
write tools for these test-cases by himself. I don't think most PHP
professionals have the time to do this. Maybe this can be covered by
http://nohn.net/lalafarm/php4-test.zip. It not that normale test-thing like
run-tests.php, where the developers write their own test-cases (that system
will never work). QA-staff or normal users have to write small and easy to
understand test-snippets...

> The end points being these, are your bugs fixed in CVS head?  From what
> I've gathered, yes.

Some are, some are not.

> Can PHP 4.3 be made to be as bug-free as possible?

Of course it can be.

> Yes, with some time and help from all developers.  You are welcome to
> contribute patches to close bugs before the GM is released.

I don't think, I have enought knowledge of C to do this.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Dan Kalowsky]

> Nobody needs 4.3 with 1000 new features, everybody needs a PHP Version that
> has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1 fixing the so far
> closed bugs would be great. I have _SERIOUS_ problems with theses bugs for
> example:

I would disagree with this statement.  PHP 4-CVS currently makes support
for MacOSX possible.  While I see this being not so important in your
world, it is in mine, and to a large number of up and coming PHP users.
With OSX 10.2 coming out in the next few weeks this can, and will be, an
important thing to have working.  Unfortunately, it cannot be backported,
because it utilizes the new build system.

But regardless, Sebastian your points are all valid on why a 4.2.3 should
be made.  I think you forget things though like the amount of time each RC
takes, the amount of resources, and the lack of response each one
generates.  The number of people submitting comments on RCs for 64bit
archs is even less.

The end points being these, are your bugs fixed in CVS head?  From what
I've gathered, yes.  Can PHP 4.3 be made to be as bug-free as possible?
Yes, with some time and help from all developers.  You are welcome to
contribute patches to close bugs before the GM is released.

>---<
Dan Kalowsky"A little less conversation,
http://www.deadmime.org/~danka little more action."
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[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Thomas Seifert]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002 19:59:31 +0200 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Sebastian Nohn) wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > we released 4.2.2 less than a week ago. If we release any new
> > package within 2weeks to a month, i feel it'll just infuriate system
> admins more.
> > People don't want to be installing new packages every week for the same
> product.
> 
> We were running 4.0.4pl1 for more than one year, then we needed some new
> features and installed 4.1.2, 4.2.0, 4.2.1. No! We did'nt want to install
> 4.2.0 or 4.2.1 bescause we liked to, or we needed any new feature or our
> sysadmin wanted to install this, we simple wanted to get a running
> enviroment. It was pure hell and it is still! These releases were'nt even
> able to do the most simple things like sorting arrays, creating files &
> directorys, diff'ing arrays and so on.

I have used all these versions in production and didn't have any problems in the
parts you are talking about.
maybe you have certain circumstances which should be tested on QA? 

Never had a "hell" like you the one you are talking about with any release of php as
the software has grown with the php-versions.


Thomas

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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> Aren't most of your problems related to using a 64-bit platform?  Where
> were you during QA on 4.2?  My sort() stuff works just fine here.

On another place in that group where I had very little to do with PHP and if
I had to do with it, it was Windows or Linux on x86...


Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1?

[Rasmus Lerdorf]

Aren't most of your problems related to using a 64-bit platform?  Where
were you during QA on 4.2?  My sort() stuff works just fine here.

-Rasmus

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > there are not enough people for this.
>
> Well. As I already said: Then there are'nt enough people for 4.3.0 too. Yes
> I know, you are the maintainer of 4.2.x, Stig is the maintainer of 4.3.0.
>
> Regards,
>Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> The other major problem is availibilty of platforms QA'd. Sebastian - I
> trust you'll take the two 64-bit systems you we're talking about?

Uh. Yes well... The next week this is no problem, after that I have vacation
and I only have access to these machines from my office so I would one check
per week or so... I'm not going to stay in office the whole week on my
vacation ;) Maybe I can get one or more co-workers of mine doing some tests
on our machines - in this case it should be no problem to give daily
feedback on workdays. If I think of the mood of my co-workers this is on so
far, they _really_ want a running PHP ;)

> I have an AIX box available, but it doesn't actively run php - it's a
> DB-backend, so only compilation issues I could track down.
>
> I think that for many platforms we don't even have a person let alone two
> (if there we're 2 QA's to be done).

I think more easy, automatically runnable test-cases would be a great thing
to get more people do QA-Jobs and to increase the frequency of QA:

- people compile PHP with their options
- a script is called that does tests for the various extensions (create a
picture, save it to disk, md5it ; parse in xml file in an array, diff the
result ; parse an xml file with xsl ; query a demo database ; bla ; bla ;
bla)
- the results incl. OS-string, make, automake, balblabla-version are written
into an plain-text or xml-file or are sent to a server (the user should have
the option to choose, as the machines i'm working on have no connection to
the internet for example) where it is parsed back and written into an easyly
queryable database for the qa people.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Melvyn Sopacua]

At 20:44 28-7-2002, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

> > Well. As I already said: Then there are'nt enough people for 4.3.0 too. Yes
> > I know, you are the maintainer of 4.2.x, Stig is the maintainer of 4.3.0.
>
>There are not enough people to do two releases at one time.

Actually - one issue there, are the tools for QA.

Like you said, back in April IIRC - the qa-web messages don't really make 
it very
easy to track who found what bug, who fixed it, whether the fix was ok'd 
and merged
and tested again, by others, to ensure platform compatibility.

These are basics of solid QA. Further more -the 4.3 testsuite allows for 
much better
reporting and cooperation with QA-web. Is there any chance this could get 
merged
to PHP_4_2_0 branch - I would be willing to create the tools to get the 
logs in and store
them in some format/database so that it can be queried and analyzed.

if the extension of the log files, could change to .testlog then there's 
also no conflict with
any existing file in the source tree (like config.log or stuff people make 
up for themselves
while testing which is then suddenly sent to QA-web).

The other major problem is availibilty of platforms QA'd. Sebastian - I 
trust you'll take the
two 64-bit systems you we're talking about?

I have an AIX box available, but it doesn't actively run php - it's a 
DB-backend, so only
compilation issues I could track down.

The popular OS's get solid QA, but especially the commerical unices and 
Windows (Markus,
Liz, other Sebastian and Derick and myselef IIRC).

I think that for many platforms we don't even have a person let alone two 
(if there we're 2
QA's to be done).

Last but not least - the latest stable snapshot, don't contain all 
bugfixes, as some have not
been fixed on both branches (xslt and sysvsem are 2 I know of).



Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards,

Webmaster IDG.nl
Melvyn Sopacua


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[James Cox]

> Following that, why not do what a number of people do, and do
>
> major.minor.patch
>
> major releases say every 6 months
> minor ones every 2 - unless serious patch required
> patches as required
>
> This allows people to predict the times also.
>
i would see this working, given it's what we do already. but more
specifically, following the apache method of posting patch files when
something gets fixed, so people can search the directory and find patches
that will fix their problem. See http://www.apache.org/dist/httpd/patches/.

James


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> > That is no solution for the real problem. People are frustrated
> > because they don't know if their software runs on the next machine
> > they put it on because this machine maybe has another PHP-version.
> > It's the same thing like GD or Apache 2. Why was GD forked by PHP,
> > why was Apache 2-SAPI development stopped for a long time? Because
> > it was unsatisfying.

> I meant a 'stable' snapshot which is taken from the PHP_4_2_0 branch.

Yes. But a lot of people don't even know that there is a snaps.php.net. Even
a lot of admins don't know this. What about calling this snapshot 4.2.3 and
releasing this on the homepage?

> > What does the license say about forking PHP?

> You can fork if you want, but not call it something with PHP in it's
> name. But consider what you are doing then. What pros does it have
> instead of using a snapshot? IMO it will only shatter development and
> QA, and that's not a good idea.

I did not say I want to fork PHP ;) I don't even have the knowledge to do
this but there are more and more people who want to do something like that
and who have the power. I'm working in a big international company and we
have a lot of external programmes and consultans, so we have a high
fluctuation of high professional programmers (well... most of them are high
professional ;)) and some of them have talked about things like this. I
think a lot more have thought about this but of course not everyone talked
to me on this issue.

In the past I always tried to soothe these people by saying "the next
relase, the next release, the next release..." but in the meantime I've
stopped to believe in these words. Yes well, that's not your problem but
think about this.

Another Idea may be a commercially supported PHP with guranteed response
times for bugs for professional users who have the money to pay for this. Of
course all these patches are managed via PHP CVS and so the "normal" users
get the patches 2-6 months later (if the rely on releases). Maybe this is a
concept for companys like Zend or Maguma.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1?

[derick]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > there are not enough people for this.
> 
> Well. As I already said: Then there are'nt enough people for 4.3.0 too. Yes
> I know, you are the maintainer of 4.2.x, Stig is the maintainer of 4.3.0.

There are not enough people to do two releases at one time.

Derick

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[PHP-DEV] Re: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[derick]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> That is no solution for the real problem. People are frustrated because they
> don't know if their software runs on the next machine they put it on because
> this machine maybe has another PHP-version. It's the same thing like GD or
> Apache 2. Why was GD forked by PHP, why was Apache 2-SAPI development
> stopped for a long time? Because it was unsatisfying.

I meant a 'stable' snapshot which is taken from the PHP_4_2_0 branch. 

> 
> What does the license say about forking PHP?

You can fork if you want, but not call it something with PHP in it's 
name. But consider what you are doing then. What pros does it have 
instead of using a snapshot? IMO it will only shatter development and 
QA, and that's not a good idea.

Derick

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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> > Yes. That may be. But there are a lot of bugfixes in the latest
> > STABLE-snapshot I tested (26/07/02) - or exactly: All bugs I experienced
> > were fixed. So the easiest thing would be to cancel all new
> > features that were planned for 4.2.3 and move them to 4.3.0 and apply
all
> > patches that have been fixed in the last STABLE-snapshot and do a quick
> > release process (no new features, no or at least few new problems).
>
> The use the snapshot for your production box...

That is no solution for the real problem. People are frustrated because they
don't know if their software runs on the next machine they put it on because
this machine maybe has another PHP-version. It's the same thing like GD or
Apache 2. Why was GD forked by PHP, why was Apache 2-SAPI development
stopped for a long time? Because it was unsatisfying.

What does the license say about forking PHP?

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> there are not enough people for this.

Well. As I already said: Then there are'nt enough people for 4.3.0 too. Yes
I know, you are the maintainer of 4.2.x, Stig is the maintainer of 4.3.0.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[derick]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> Yes. That may be. But there are a lot of bugfixes in the latest
> STABLE-snapshot I tested (26/07/02) - or exactly: All bugs I experienced
> were fixed. So the easiest thing would be to cancel all new features that
> were planned for 4.2.3 and move them to 4.3.0 and apply all patches that
> have been fixed in the last STABLE-snapshot and do a quick release process
> (no new features, no or at least few new problems).

The use the snapshot for your production box... 

Derick

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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[derick]

Easy answer:

there are not enough people for this.

Derick

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Liz wrote:

> Another option would be to get people to split into 2 teams, and have
> bug fix team and new feature team, where people specifically look at
> those features. Make a slightly bigger divide between the two projects.
>
> > Yes, there are others who feel this way - but basically it 
> > boils down to 
> > who is
> > qualified AND has the time to take this task upon him/her. I 
> > for one am not
> > qualified as I don't have a solid understanding of C nor the 
> > build system.
> > 
> > Further more - QA of two releases is not a good idea, so the 
> > whole thing 
> > should be
> > done in an acceptable timeframe, so that it doesn't delay 4.3 
> > release too much.
> > 
> > Maybe we could sweet-talk Stig into it ? :-)
> > Or Zeev as he's on the same bandwagon.
> 
> 
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[derick]

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> > has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1 fixing 
> > the so far
> 
> That is 4.2.2pl1 of course ;)

The next version should be 4.2.3, and not pl1 crap :)

Derick

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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Melvyn Sopacua]

At 19:40 28-7-2002, Liz wrote:

>Following that, why not do what a number of people do, and do
>
>major.minor.patch

Basically that's how it is, but the understanding of major and minor is a 
little
outof sync with other packages out there or QA of minors isn't wat is should
be, which ever you prefer.

As for 4.2.2 - that probably should have been named 4.2.1pl1 to get passed
the psychological frustration issue - cause that's what it really is.

I think we need a patch system for windows binaries, as all that was really
required was a small patchfile. Did anybody ever look into using the Nullsoft
installer?


Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards,

Webmaster IDG.nl
Melvyn Sopacua


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> we released 4.2.2 less than a week ago. If we release any new
> package within 2weeks to a month, i feel it'll just infuriate system
admins more.
> People don't want to be installing new packages every week for the same
product.

We were running 4.0.4pl1 for more than one year, then we needed some new
features and installed 4.1.2, 4.2.0, 4.2.1. No! We did'nt want to install
4.2.0 or 4.2.1 bescause we liked to, or we needed any new feature or our
sysadmin wanted to install this, we simple wanted to get a running
enviroment. It was pure hell and it is still! These releases were'nt even
able to do the most simple things like sorting arrays, creating files &
directorys, diff'ing arrays and so on.

> Of all the complaints i hear about PHP, one of the biggest is the
> frequency of packages; it's too much for people to cope with.

People don't have to install new releases every time but they do with PHP.
Strange they don't do this with Apache, the Linux kernel or anything else. I
don't know WHY people always think the *need* to update PHP, but it's
clearly a problem of the admins not of PHP. Maybe it's a problem of PHP,
then the only idea I have is that it is caused by bugs, bugs, bugs and
people hope their bugs are fixed in the next release.

> I suggest that if you want fixes, use snapshots or cvs... and we release
> packages every few months which have been QA tested and are fit for
> production use.

That is _completely_ the wrong way. If I want a stable version of any
software I use a release (Linux, Mozilla, Gimp, Win NT 4, MS Office 98,
whatever you like). If I want features I take a snapshot (Linux 2.5 for USB
2.0 support, Mozilla for a download manager, Win XP, Office XP, etc.).
Currently NO release is fit for production use. Neither does 4.0.4pl1
support today's software nor is it supported by PHP group anymore. It is'nt
even downloadable from php.net-Website. Every release older than 4.0.4pl1 is
buggy as hell. Does anyone of you expect 4.3.0 to be bug-free? No. Of course
I don't expect a 4.2.3 bug free but at least it's a chance to have a release
with a very little number of bugs.

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Liz]

Following that, why not do what a number of people do, and do 

major.minor.patch

major releases say every 6 months
minor ones every 2 - unless serious patch required
patches as required

This allows people to predict the times also.


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[James Cox]

 the large amount of time between the branches.
>
> Yes. That may be. But there are a lot of bugfixes in the latest
> STABLE-snapshot I tested (26/07/02) - or exactly: All bugs I experienced
> were fixed. So the easiest thing would be to cancel all new features that
> were planned for 4.2.3 and move them to 4.3.0 and apply all patches that
> have been fixed in the last STABLE-snapshot and do a quick release process
> (no new features, no or at least few new problems).
>

we released 4.2.2 less than a week ago. If we release any new package within
2weeks to a month, i feel it'll just infuriate system admins more. People
don't want to be installing new packages every week for the same product.

Of all the complaints i hear about PHP, one of the biggest is the frequency
of packages; it's too much for people to cope with.

I suggest that if you want fixes, use snapshots or cvs... and we release
packages every few months which have been QA tested and are fit for
production use.

 -- James


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RE: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> Because we have no 4.2 release manager with Derick going away.  And 4.3
> fixes a whole slew of 4.2 bugs

And brings 150 new...

> some of which are not easily backportable to the 4.2 codebase because of
> the large amount of time between the branches.

Yes. That may be. But there are a lot of bugfixes in the latest
STABLE-snapshot I tested (26/07/02) - or exactly: All bugs I experienced
were fixed. So the easiest thing would be to cancel all new features that
were planned for 4.2.3 and move them to 4.3.0 and apply all patches that
have been fixed in the last STABLE-snapshot and do a quick release process
(no new features, no or at least few new problems).

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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Re: [PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Rasmus Lerdorf]

Because we have no 4.2 release manager with Derick going away.  And 4.3
fixes a whole slew of 4.2 bugs some of which are not easily backportable
to the 4.2 codebase because of the large amount of time between the
branches.

-Rasmus

On Sun, 28 Jul 2002, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> Hi,
>
> > Another option would be to get people to split into 2 teams, and have
> > bug fix team and new feature team, where people specifically look at
> > those features. Make a slightly bigger divide between the two projects.
>
> Why not simple delay another buggy release 4.3.0?
>
> Regards,
>Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Melvyn Sopacua]

Hey Liz,

At 15:55 28-7-2002 +0100, Liz wrote:

>Another option would be to get people to split into 2 teams, and have
>bug fix team and new feature team, where people specifically look at
>those features. Make a slightly bigger divide between the two projects.

Yes - for QA this is a good idea. Could we get a headcount?

But there's still the issue of a person needed to make sure all fixes get
merged, create a snapshot and adjust QA-web to match the release
version, pack the release and win32 binaries and announce on the websites
and mailing lists.
Also - since QA Web currently isn't very release-master friendly, as it's hard
to keep track of who posted a problem, this isn't as trivial as it sounds.

For the bug part - I personally feel Jani would be the ideal candidate, but
judging from this message
http://news.php.net/article.php?group=php.dev&article=86264
on the php-dev list, he's being (de-) bugged by Derick :-)



> > Yes, there are others who feel this way - but basically it
> > boils down to
> > who is
> > qualified AND has the time to take this task upon him/her. I
> > for one am not
> > qualified as I don't have a solid understanding of C nor the
> > build system.
> >
> > Further more - QA of two releases is not a good idea, so the
> > whole thing
> > should be
> > done in an acceptable timeframe, so that it doesn't delay 4.3
> > release too much.
> >
> > Maybe we could sweet-talk Stig into it ? :-)
> > Or Zeev as he's on the same bandwagon.
>
>
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> Another option would be to get people to split into 2 teams, and have
> bug fix team and new feature team, where people specifically look at
> those features. Make a slightly bigger divide between the two projects.

Why not simple delay another buggy release 4.3.0?

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Liz]

Another option would be to get people to split into 2 teams, and have
bug fix team and new feature team, where people specifically look at
those features. Make a slightly bigger divide between the two projects.
> Yes, there are others who feel this way - but basically it 
> boils down to 
> who is
> qualified AND has the time to take this task upon him/her. I 
> for one am not
> qualified as I don't have a solid understanding of C nor the 
> build system.
> 
> Further more - QA of two releases is not a good idea, so the 
> whole thing 
> should be
> done in an acceptable timeframe, so that it doesn't delay 4.3 
> release too much.
> 
> Maybe we could sweet-talk Stig into it ? :-)
> Or Zeev as he's on the same bandwagon.


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Melvyn Sopacua]

Hi Sebastian,

At 16:08 28-7-2002 +0200, Sebastian Nohn wrote:

> > yes it was, but it was canceled, as Stig, Derick and others
> > agreed, that it would delay 4.3.0 too much.
>
>Nobody needs 4.3 with 1000 new features, everybody needs a PHP Version that
>has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1 fixing the so far
>closed bugs would be great. I have _SERIOUS_ problems with theses bugs for
>example:
>
>#17449
>#18228

Yes, there are others who feel this way - but basically it boils down to 
who is
qualified AND has the time to take this task upon him/her. I for one am not
qualified as I don't have a solid understanding of C nor the build system.

Further more - QA of two releases is not a good idea, so the whole thing 
should be
done in an acceptable timeframe, so that it doesn't delay 4.3 release too much.

Maybe we could sweet-talk Stig into it ? :-)
Or Zeev as he's on the same bandwagon.


[...]

> > That - and nobody else has the time to coordinate the effort,
> > while Derick is on vacation. So the plan now is, to start
> > branching and QA 4.3.
>
>Strange that people have time for this.

4.3 has another release-master - Stig.

>  Anything revolutionary announced for
>4.3.0?

Well - and that's my own problem with not releasing 4.2.3 also.
There's a new build system and while tests are on-going, the real bugs will 
show in the
first release and hopefully during QA.

Then there are some new extensions, re-work of the whole PEAR structure, 
introduction
of PECL.

It's a whole lot of new stuff that didn't have any production experience 
apart from a few
dedicated people - and as you mention, with a bunch of bugs in 4.2.x that 
disturb basic
operations or required functionality for an extension, I'm also in favour 
of a 4.2.3 release,
but as I said - it boils down to: who steps up to the plate to coordinate 
the effort?




Met vriendelijke groeten / With kind regards,

Webmaster IDG.nl
Melvyn Sopacua


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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1 fixing 
> the so far

That is 4.2.2pl1 of course ;)

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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[PHP-DEV] RE: [PHP-QA] PHP 4.2.3RC1 ?

[Sebastian Nohn]

Hi,

> yes it was, but it was canceled, as Stig, Derick and others
> agreed, that it would delay 4.3.0 too much.

Nobody needs 4.3 with 1000 new features, everybody needs a PHP Version that
has at least as few bugs as 4.0.4pl1. At least a 4.0.2pl1 fixing the so far
closed bugs would be great. I have _SERIOUS_ problems with theses bugs for
example:

#17449
#18228

The bugs make it impossible to use my production server (that runs on
Tru64/Alpha), so I have to use my development server (that runs on
Solaris/Sparc) to run my applications in a productive enviroment.

As you can see in the notes to bug #17449 these Bugs apply to various
64bit-platforms like IRIX/Mips, FreeBSD/Alpha, Tru64/Alpha. It think a lot
of the other bugs found and fixed in cvs but not in release between 4.2.0
and now cause serious problems to a lot of people who _really_ need these
features.

These bugs are'nt fixed in 4.2.2, but they were fixed in CVS-2002-07-26. So
it should be easy to release this.

> That - and nobody else has the time to coordinate the effort,
> while Derick is on vacation. So the plan now is, to start
> branching and QA 4.3.

Strange that people have time for this. Anything revolutionary announced for
4.3.0?

Regards,
   Sebastian Nohn
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