Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[EMAIL PROTECTED] (John Nichel) wrote in news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]: Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] CR Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list CR once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Isn't it posted once a month as it is? [/snip] It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to post it every other day or so. Didn't it used to get sent out to people when they subscribed to the list too? Anyone know if that still happens? Well, i only accesses this list on usenet. I haven't subscribed to anything. -- Rolf -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] Now, perhaps, an INTERESTING project for some of us to work on would be that system: Spec: Robot subscriber to PHP-General. Reads all incoming messages. Discards anything that looks like a 'Reply:' including: Has 'Re: ' or 'Fwd: in subject Has Message ID in-reply-to header thingies Concats Subject and body, with signatures removed. Removes all common English words Searches for remaining [key]words in php.net/faq.php If any matches, deep-link (with #xyz) to the FAQ answers. If number of remaining [key]words (above) is small, also compose a URL link to http://php.net/remaining+keywords Creates a reply email (to original poster only) suggesting that maybe they just need to check those links, but to REPLY to their post if they're STILL lost after reading all that stuff. That way, if any of us see a question that we KNOW is answered in FAQ or php.net/xyz and that is not a Reply of some kind, we can let the robot handle it. What do you think? Worth doing? Waste of time? You interested in implementing or testing it? Got a server where you control smrsh and whatnot enough to handle it? [/snip] I like it a lot. And I would be glad to put in my 0.02. As we are developing a knowledge base for our internal users and this falls along the same lines I would have to say to count me in. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] I'm not going to promise any of this. If someone else is willing to donate the hardware to make this happen then contact me / the list. Of course anyone else that wants to donate coding time is more than welcome to join project ParrotHeadPoster. :) I can already imagine it now... I'm a talking phParrot and I think I can help you. Try reading what you find at the following link(s): [/snip] Cool, a ParrotHead reference and name for the project in one post. WTG Jason! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip]
...lots of really good stuff...
[/snip]
So, basically I saw 3 possible action items from this discussion...
1. phParrot development
2. Weekly CRON of NEWBIE GUIDE (once I get the e-mail portion figured
out)
3. OT posts should contain a TIP or TRICK? If we did this we could
harvest them once in a while for dissemination to the group. How you
say? You could contain the tip in a tag, example...
[tip type=query error checking author=Jay Blanchard]
When issueing a query to the database I always find it healthy to do
error checking in this form
if(!($resultOfQuery = mysql_query($query, $databaseConnection))){
echo This gave me an error . mysql_error() . \n;
exit();
}
If an error is thrown the application exits immediately so that I can
correct and move on.
[/tip]
As you can see, using some reasonable regex would get the tip out. Also,
when phParrot is up and running a tip can be given with each reply if a
databse of these tips was gathered. Someone then could gather all of the
tips, publish a book and make us all famous.
I may have had too much caffeine this AM -- looks like my enthusiasm
level is set to 'HIGH'
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Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] Now, perhaps, an INTERESTING project for some of us to work on would be that system: Spec: Robot subscriber to PHP-General. Reads all incoming messages. Discards anything that looks like a 'Reply:' including: Has 'Re: ' or 'Fwd: in subject Has Message ID in-reply-to header thingies Concats Subject and body, with signatures removed. Removes all common English words Searches for remaining [key]words in php.net/faq.php If any matches, deep-link (with #xyz) to the FAQ answers. If number of remaining [key]words (above) is small, also compose a URL link to http://php.net/remaining+keywords Creates a reply email (to original poster only) suggesting that maybe they just need to check those links, but to REPLY to their post if they're STILL lost after reading all that stuff. That way, if any of us see a question that we KNOW is answered in FAQ or php.net/xyz and that is not a Reply of some kind, we can let the robot handle it. What do you think? Worth doing? Waste of time? You interested in implementing or testing it? Got a server where you control smrsh and whatnot enough to handle it? [/snip] I like it a lot. And I would be glad to put in my 0.02. As we are developing a knowledge base for our internal users and this falls along the same lines I would have to say to count me in. I like the sound of it too. shall we crystalize what we want/decided into a new post? 1. what we want: i.e. repository of list tips/solutions etc 2. a parrot 3. where to host 4. who/where to run the parrot 5. any other business Jay maybe your the man for that job? not trying to force anything on you but I reckon we could do with a 'lead man' of some sorts to do a little coordinating and possibly just make a decision (avoid endless discusion about minutae) Also I may have a machine capable of running the parrot - its on the same subnet as nl2.php.net so connection speed is no probs but I have no idea how process intensive the parrot would be (if its too heavy I would have to decline cos there are commercial site running on the same box which expect a certain level of performance :-) ...paying customers, you get the picture!). BTW ParrotHeadPoster is a fitting name, lets keep it! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote:
[snip]
...lots of really good stuff...
[/snip]
So, basically I saw 3 possible action items from this discussion...
1. phParrot development
2. Weekly CRON of NEWBIE GUIDE (once I get the e-mail portion figured
out)
3. OT posts should contain a TIP or TRICK? If we did this we could
harvest them once in a while for dissemination to the group. How you
say? You could contain the tip in a tag, example...
[tip type=query error checking author=Jay Blanchard]
When issueing a query to the database I always find it healthy to do
error checking in this form
if(!($resultOfQuery = mysql_query($query, $databaseConnection))){
echo This gave me an error . mysql_error() . \n;
exit();
}
If an error is thrown the application exits immediately so that I can
correct and move on.
[/tip]
4. a website/subsite related DB to store data for phParrot, tips, etc.
phparrot.net is up for grabs - I'm happy to register it (can't grace the list
with
ace mathematical explainations :-) but I'm happy to shell out a few bucks as a
way
of giving back a little) - and I'd just as happily transfer the domain into the
hands
of an 'official' php organisation if and when people think its required (at no
charge).
or maybe someone else want to register it?
also nobody seems to dare speak up regarding a 'front man'?
As you can see, using some reasonable regex would get the tip out. Also,
when phParrot is up and running a tip can be given with each reply if a
databse of these tips was gathered. Someone then could gather all of the
tips, publish a book and make us all famous.
I may have had too much caffeine this AM -- looks like my enthusiasm
level is set to 'HIGH'
thats a good thing, everyone feeds of the energy, its how balls start to
roll :-)
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RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] 4. a website/subsite related DB to store data for phParrot, tips, etc. phparrot.net is up for grabs - I'm happy to register it (can't grace the list with ace mathematical explainations :-) but I'm happy to shell out a few bucks as a way of giving back a little) - and I'd just as happily transfer the domain into the hands of an 'official' php organisation if and when people think its required (at no charge). or maybe someone else want to register it? also nobody seems to dare speak up regarding a 'front man'? [/snip] I'll take the lead. And go ahead and register. Does anyone know, off hand, if phpwebhosting.com will allow us to set up the server like we would like it? If so, I'll set up an account and pay for the space... -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] 4. a website/subsite related DB to store data for phParrot, tips, etc. phparrot.net is up for grabs - I'm happy to register it (can't grace the list with ace mathematical explainations :-) but I'm happy to shell out a few bucks as a way of giving back a little) - and I'd just as happily transfer the domain into the hands of an 'official' php organisation if and when people think its required (at no charge). or maybe someone else want to register it? also nobody seems to dare speak up regarding a 'front man'? [/snip] I'll take the lead. And go ahead and register. Does anyone know, off hand, if phpwebhosting.com will allow us to set up the server like we would like it? If so, I'll set up an account and pay for the space... I think we have our frontman: every say hello to Jay :-) phpwebhosting.com doesn't seem to run PHP5 yet - I would strongly suggest that whatever [we do/is done] with PHP for this project should be in PHP5. Also their servers run Redhat Linux Enterprise 3 edition. (which wouldn't be my first choice of OS). -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Great list Jay. The only other thing that I would add is this: The people on this list are not your paid support specialists that *have* to answer you on your slightest whim. Most of this netiquette is covered by http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html, but basically if you make it easy for us to help you then we probably will. I personally find it *very* irritating when I get emails sent to me asking for help. I am more than happy to answer questions on the list, but please respect my privacy and realize that I answer questions in the newsgroup when / if I get the time to do so. There will be times to send me private emails which are ok, but generally keep all PHP help questions on the list. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
I too agree - the list raises some really important points... Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Might be worth it in the interest of keeping the list tidy? Chris Ramsay - Web Developer - The Danwood Group Ltd. T: +44 (0) 1522 834482 F: +44 (0) 1522 884488 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://www.danwood.co.uk - -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Hello Chris, Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 2:03:09 PM, you wrote: CR Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list CR once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Isn't it posted once a month as it is? Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] CR Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list CR once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Isn't it posted once a month as it is? [/snip] It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to post it every other day or so. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Richard TheList... Isn't it posted once a month as it is? Hot damn! That'll be why I have never seen it then! :/ Apologies to all!!! Chris Ramsay - Web Developer - The Danwood Group Ltd. T: +44 (0) 1522 834482 F: +44 (0) 1522 884488 e: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] w: http://www.danwood.co.uk - -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re[2]: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Hello Jay, Tuesday, January 25, 2005, 2:33:32 PM, you wrote: JB It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I JB retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to JB post it every other day or so. I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) Best regards, Richard Davey -- http://www.launchcode.co.uk - PHP Development Services I am not young enough to know everything. - Oscar Wilde -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: Re[2]: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] JB It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I JB retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to JB post it every other day or so. I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) [/snip] Then we should chnage the header [NEWBIE GUIDE] - READ THIS OR YOU'LL NEVER GET ON THE ISLAND -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] JB It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I JB retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to JB post it every other day or so. I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) [/snip] Then we should chnage the header [NEWBIE GUIDE] - READ THIS OR YOU'LL NEVER GET ON THE ISLAND Hope there are some hot chicks on this island. Heck I'm a newbie, if all the newbies get lei'd once they're accepted on the island ;) Definitely seems worthy of cron to me. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Great List... although.. .just having a sense humor here... i think every topic has been covered a number of times... which means no one should be posting questions at the php list... cause they are all in the archive :0) cheers! Joe On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 09:48:53 -0500, Jason Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] JB It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I JB retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to JB post it every other day or so. I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) [/snip] Then we should chnage the header [NEWBIE GUIDE] - READ THIS OR YOU'LL NEVER GET ON THE ISLAND Hope there are some hot chicks on this island. Heck I'm a newbie, if all the newbies get lei'd once they're accepted on the island ;) Definitely seems worthy of cron to me. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] although.. .just having a sense humor here... i think every topic has been covered a number of times... which means no one should be posting questions at the php list... cause they are all in the archive :0) [/snip] Maybe...except for PHP5 :) ! -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] although.. .just having a sense humor here... i think every topic has been covered a number of times... which means no one should be posting questions at the php list... cause they are all in the archive :0) [/snip] Maybe...except for PHP5 :) ! That and XML / SOAP. I've noticed that while some of those questions go answered there are a *lot* of times when they don't. I guess a lot of people on the list don't use it? That or the answers are sent privately / much later because I seldom see them answered. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] ...stuff... [/snip] This is interesting, I set up the mail line for the CRON to read mail(php-general@lists.php.net, [NEWBIE GUIDE] - For benefit of new list members, $msg, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . X-Mailer: PHP/ . phpversion()); And the test mail did not appear on the list. Would php-general not recognize itself as a member? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] CR Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list CR once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Isn't it posted once a month as it is? [/snip] It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to post it every other day or so. Didn't it used to get sent out to people when they subscribed to the list too? Anyone know if that still happens? -- John C. Nichel ÜberGeek KegWorks.com 716.856.9675 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] stuff... [/snip] This is interesting, I set up the mail line for the CRON to read mail(php-general@lists.php.net, [NEWBIE GUIDE] - For benefit of new list members, $msg, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . X-Mailer: PHP/ . phpversion()); And the test mail did not appear on the list. Would php-general not recognize itself as a member? To be honest: I simply don't know. I'm guessing John Holmes might know the answer to this one? ... -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] ...stuff... [/snip] This is interesting, I set up the mail line for the CRON to read mail(php-general@lists.php.net, [NEWBIE GUIDE] - For benefit of new list members, $msg, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . X-Mailer: PHP/ . phpversion()); And the test mail did not appear on the list. Would php-general not recognize itself as a member? maybe it doesn't work on purpose - possibly to avoid mail loops? --- Jay, great list BTW - I was thinking maybe we could drop it on a site/wiki or something which could also contain stuff that comes up again and again, or stuff that even the 6month y/o newbie finds trivial or just good stuff thats been condensed from the list (kind of a good practice/cool code repository). I know there are lots of places out there already but I think ,for instance, the mail archives suck for searching - and often there is plenty of FUD in among the cherries. someone could then send out a weekly NEWBIE email that points them to said site - which in turns introduces them to netiquette, list faqs, etc. having a Wiki type thing would relieve the list of lots of 'O-T' stuff on 'NEWBIE email enhancements'? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
John Nichel wrote: Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] CR Just a thought, but would it be worth someone posting the list CR once a week to catch new users as they sign up? Isn't it posted once a month as it is? [/snip] It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to post it every other day or so. Didn't it used to get sent out to people when they subscribed to the list too? Anyone know if that still happens? yes - the answer is no (if it ever did - I can't recall). -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] This is interesting, I set up the mail line for the CRON to read mail(php-general@lists.php.net, [NEWBIE GUIDE] - For benefit of new list members, $msg, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . X-Mailer: PHP/ . phpversion()); And the test mail did not appear on the list. Would php-general not recognize itself as a member? To be honest: I simply don't know. I'm guessing John Holmes might know the answer to this one? ... [/snip] I just tried with a different From address...mineand still no appearance on the list. Interesting to say the least. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] I think that Justin Patrin started up a wiki for PHP, but he hasn't been on the list in a while and I can't remember what the url for his wiki was. But he had a fair amount of useful code in there that would be a great start for this project. AND ... Yeah the list is pretty high volume... it would be great if we could help relieve the stress on the servers a bit. [/snip] Perhaps http://www.phpcommunity.org could put some of this stuff up? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
I think sending it to the list every so often, via cron isn't the best way to handle it. I've read it once, I don't see the point in getting it again. Perhaps, is the list admins were willing, it could be set up to be sent to all newbies, as part of the subscription process. To ensure that it is read by all newbies, they'd have to answer certain questions in the body of the confirmation email? The problem of newbies not knowing they are newbies, isn't overcome by cron. Any thoughts? P.S. An addition to the above, a reminder that you have to CC to php-general@lists.php.net, for responses to be sent to the list might be a good idea. I've lost count of how many times I've forgotten to do this, including this time(sorry Jay), and ended up sending it only to the original sender, instead of to the list, resulting in the original sender recieving the thing twice. On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:22:27 -0500, Jason Barnett [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Jochem Maas wrote: Jay Blanchard wrote: ... Jay, great list BTW - I was thinking maybe we could drop it on a site/wiki or something which could also contain stuff that comes up again and again, or stuff that even the 6month y/o newbie finds trivial or just good stuff thats been condensed from the list (kind of a good practice/cool code repository). I know there are lots of places out there already but I think I think that Justin Patrin started up a wiki for PHP, but he hasn't been on the list in a while and I can't remember what the url for his wiki was. But he had a fair amount of useful code in there that would be a great start for this project. ,for instance, the mail archives suck for searching - and often there is plenty of FUD in among the cherries. someone could then send out a weekly NEWBIE email that points them to said site - which in turns introduces them to netiquette, list faqs, etc. having a Wiki type thing would relieve the list of lots of 'O-T' stuff on 'NEWBIE email enhancements'? Yeah the list is pretty high volume... it would be great if we could help relieve the stress on the servers a bit. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:15:37 +, Rory Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think sending it to the list every so often, via cron isn't the best way to handle it. I've read it once, I don't see the point in getting it again. Perhaps, is the list admins were willing, it could be set up to be sent to all newbies, as part of the subscription process. To ensure that it is read by all newbies, they'd have to answer certain questions in the body of the confirmation email? The problem of newbies not knowing they are newbies, isn't overcome by cron. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I wouldn't want to take a test just because I need to resubscribe after vacation, or a change of email address. Besides that, if the test is unmonitored, well.. anyway. The Perl solution many years ago was to make a newbie list. My local Linux user group solution last year was to make a newbie list. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Greg Donald mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 9:36 AM said: The Perl solution many years ago was to make a newbie list. My local Linux user group solution last year was to make a newbie list. This idea has been presented too. All the smart people will go to the advanced (or normal) list and leave all the n00bs by themselves to answer questions like, I tried to download the internets with PHP to my compy 386 but it didn't work. PLZ HLP! KTHXBYE! with, I don't know. Maybe you should subscribe to the advanced list and ask there? After a few hours there will be no more newby list. At least, that's how the outcome has been imagined in the past. Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 11:36:17 -0600, Greg Donald [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:15:37 +, Rory Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think sending it to the list every so often, via cron isn't the best way to handle it. I've read it once, I don't see the point in getting it again. Perhaps, is the list admins were willing, it could be set up to be sent to all newbies, as part of the subscription process. To ensure that it is read by all newbies, they'd have to answer certain questions in the body of the confirmation email? The problem of newbies not knowing they are newbies, isn't overcome by cron. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I wouldn't want to take a test just because I need to resubscribe after vacation, or a change of email address. Besides that, if the test is unmonitored, well.. anyway. Fair enough. Maybe it isn't such a good idea in this instance, but for the test, I meant something simple, like a what is the missing word type thing. For example I could ask you what word was missing from the following sentence You can download a copy and use it ___ also. As you read through the guide, you'll see that the answer is 'offline'. I'm not trying to push this through. I just wanted to explain what I meant by the test and its being unmonitored, and lets face it, its handier to read the thing, and find out the answers, than it is to look up some passwordz/crakz/insert_other_l337sp33k_term_here site, just to subscribe to the PHP mailing list. Having that said, it was all just a thought. The Perl solution many years ago was to make a newbie list. My local Linux user group solution last year was to make a newbie list. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:19:12 -0800, Chris W. Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All the smart people will go to the advanced (or normal) list and leave all the n00bs by themselves to answer questions like, I tried to download the internets with PHP to my compy 386 but it didn't work. PLZ HLP! KTHXBYE! with, I don't know. Maybe you should subscribe to the advanced list and ask there? When I don't know the answer to a post I don't reply to the post. I see no reason to advertise the fact that I don't know, that's a waste of everyone's time. If one of us newbies gets no answer after a few days, we would realize no one knows the answer and would probably repost the question to another list. After a few hours there will be no more newby list. At least, that's how the outcome has been imagined in the past. I for one would subscribe and remain a member of a php-newbie list. Never too smart to learn something new. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] This is interesting, I set up the mail line for the CRON to read mail(php-general@lists.php.net, [NEWBIE GUIDE] - For benefit of new list members, $msg, From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] . X-Mailer: PHP/ . phpversion()); And the test mail did not appear on the list. Would php-general not recognize itself as a member? To be honest: I simply don't know. I'm guessing John Holmes might know the answer to this one? ... [/snip] I just tried with a different From address...mineand still no appearance on the list. Interesting to say the least. Many spam filters will utilize various tests to eliminate email that doesn't look like it came from a real person. The most common thing you can change is to make the From line include a name using an email formatted like: PHP General php-general@lists.php.net I suspect PHP General also won't take email from itself anyway, so stick with your own address. Start comparing the mail headers you are sending with the ones that make it through to the list. You'll be able to fool it eventually... -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) Perhaps the most appropriate subject would be Posting Guide - Read before sending Regardless of one's experience, one would expect to read that. That said: This *is* PHP General, and there are plenty of people, self included, who can *read* some chunks of the manual, but... Reading does not guarantee comprehension, so there will always be posts about everything. I tend to just assume that people read and failed to understand, if they seem to at least have some grasp on what they are typing. Keeps my blood pressure down :-) -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote: [snip] I think that Justin Patrin started up a wiki for PHP, but he hasn't been on the list in a while and I can't remember what the url for his wiki was. But he had a fair amount of useful code in there that would be a great start for this project. AND ... Yeah the list is pretty high volume... it would be great if we could help relieve the stress on the servers a bit. [/snip] Perhaps http://www.phpcommunity.org could put some of this stuff up? Jay, seeing as your our their steering committee, you tell us :-) seems like a good place for it tho! on top of having a place to dump cool stuff, newbie advice etc maybe we should nominate a person to act as 'Chief Archiver' - responsibilities. 1. sending out a weekly 'refresher' mails (with links to newbie advice etc) 2. managing the content of the refresher (and linked to newbie advice) 3. hassling/encouraging quality posters to summarize cool idea/discussions/solutions into wiki pages (assuming we use a wiki). 4. hassling/encouraging high-volume-posters and/or those people who show advanced level of knowledge on any given subject to 'take control' of certain pages/topics in the wiki (again assuming...). or does the majority prefer anarchy? (heh, its a choice! ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Rory Browne wrote: I think sending it to the list every so often, via cron isn't the best way to handle it. I've read it once, I don't see the point in getting indeed not the best way but... it again. Perhaps, is the list admins were willing, it could be set up considering the ammount of 'admining' done on this list we could be waiting along time for anything to change? compounded when you want to regularly enhance the reminder. the cron job is pragmatic. as is starting up an unofficial (list-)wiki. if they flourish then they'll probably be integrated into more official stuff in php land. to be sent to all newbies, as part of the subscription process. To ensure that it is read by all newbies, they'd have to answer certain questions in the body of the confirmation email? The problem of newbies not knowing they are newbies, isn't overcome by cron. lets tell them then ;-) Any thoughts? P.S. An addition to the above, a reminder that you have to CC to php-general@lists.php.net, for responses to be sent to the list might +1 for that being in the reminder/refresher. be a good idea. I've lost count of how many times I've forgotten to do this, including this time(sorry Jay), and ended up sending it only to the original sender, instead of to the list, resulting in the original sender recieving the thing twice. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Greg Donald wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:19:12 -0800, Chris W. Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... I for one would subscribe and remain a member of a php-newbie list. Never too smart to learn something new. I think that that comment makes Greg a good candidate for 'Chief Archiver'. straight up. (as a bonus any hardwork put into 'archiving' etc pays up in the form of less illegible junk questions in his inbox via php-newbie ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
I for one would subscribe and remain a member of a php-newbie list. Never too smart to learn something new. In years past, when this topic has re-re-re-re-re-re-surfaced, the general consensus always seems to be that most of us would just end up subscribed to two lists, the newbies would probably post to both too quickly, and the overall traffic would only increase, not decrease. Is it only me, or are the number of posts about posts now out-numbering the number of 'real' posts?... :-^ -- Like Music? http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Greg Donald wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 17:15:37 +, Rory Browne [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I think sending it to the list every so often, via cron isn't the best way to handle it. I've read it once, I don't see the point in getting it again. Perhaps, is the list admins were willing, it could be set up to be sent to all newbies, as part of the subscription process. To ensure that it is read by all newbies, they'd have to answer certain questions in the body of the confirmation email? The problem of newbies not knowing they are newbies, isn't overcome by cron. That doesn't seem like a good idea to me. I wouldn't want to take a test just because I need to resubscribe after vacation, or a change of email address. Besides that, if the test is unmonitored, well.. anyway. agreed - testing is futile, let the test be simply sending an email thats 'worth' answering (according to the 'guidelines'). The Perl solution many years ago was to make a newbie list. My local Linux user group solution last year was to make a newbie list. i.e. segregate the 'levels' of knowledge. -100. you'll just end up with the blind leading the blind, leads to more crap PHP programmers, leads to php's reputation being negatively compounded, leads to lower (average) paid jobs in phpland. I vote we keep the noobs close :-) or will all you advanced guys/girls spend countless hours repeatedly asking people to post code, use print_r()/var_dump() etc... without so much as halfbaked challenge in sight? me neither ;-) -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
[snip] Is it only me, or are the number of posts about posts now out-numbering the number of 'real' posts?... :-^ [/snip] I cannot be sure, so we must need a poll. And is a post about posts not really real or does it have some sort of existential non-sameness? We could always demand that posts about posts have a PHP TIP or TRICK attached. I know of another mailing list that does this with regards to off-topic posts (requires the honor system). Someone even harvests the tips and re-posts them as a whole on a weekly basis. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jochem Maas mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 11:23 AM said: Greg Donald wrote: On Tue, 25 Jan 2005 10:19:12 -0800, Chris W. Parker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Ok so maybe it wasn't as funny in the email as it was in my head but gosh where did everyone's sense of humor go? -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Tue, 2005-01-25 at 11:15, Rory Browne wrote: P.S. An addition to the above, a reminder that you have to CC to php-general@lists.php.net, for responses to be sent to the list might be a good idea. I've lost count of how many times I've forgotten to do this, including this time(sorry Jay), and ended up sending it only to the original sender, instead of to the list, resulting in the original sender recieving the thing twice. I did this a few times when subscribed so I added this to my procmail.rc ( actually to a file lists.rc that I keep all my list processing stuff in. :0 fhw * [EMAIL PROTECTED] | formail -i Reply-To: php-general@lists.php.net Now I just hit reply. and I do not feel stupid two days later when I wonder why my reply never made it :) Another favorite if someone gets too obnoxious: :0 * ^FROM: [EMAIL PROTECTED] /dev/null Bret -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jay Blanchard wrote:
[snip]
Is it only me, or are the number of posts about posts now out-numbering
the number of 'real' posts?... :-^
[/snip]
I cannot be sure, so we must need a poll. And is a post about posts not
really real or does it have some sort of existential non-sameness?
We could always demand that posts about posts have a PHP TIP or TRICK
attached. I know of another mailing list that does this with regards to
off-topic posts (requires the honor system). Someone even harvests the
tips and re-posts them as a whole on a weekly basis.
Now Jay that is simply a ridiculous suggestion. Certainly we do not
have too many posts about posts.
Oh and by the way, whenever I'm creating the skeleton of a new class I
will usually insert the following code snippet into the functions to let
me know I have to come back and actually implement it later.
if ($class = __CLASS__) {
trigger_error(__CLASS__ . '::' . __FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.',
E_USER_WARNING);
} else {
trigger_error(__FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
}
--
Teach a man to fish...
NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2
STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php
STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php
LAZY |
http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins
--
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To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Oh and by the way, whenever I'm creating the skeleton of a new class I
will usually insert the following code snippet into the functions to let
me know I have to come back and actually implement it later.
if ($class = __CLASS__) {
trigger_error(__CLASS__ . '::' . __FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.',
E_USER_WARNING);
} else {
trigger_error(__FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
}
Why the assignment to $class?
Is that supposed to be == or is it just allowing for static class/method
calls with no object instantiated?
And would not 'if (__CLASS__)' serve just as well?
--
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http://l-i-e.com/artists.htm
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Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Richard Lynch wrote:
Oh and by the way, whenever I'm creating the skeleton of a new class I
will usually insert the following code snippet into the functions to let
me know I have to come back and actually implement it later.
if ($class = __CLASS__) {
trigger_error(__CLASS__ . '::' . __FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.',
E_USER_WARNING);
} else {
trigger_error(__FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
}
Why the assignment to $class?
Is that supposed to be == or is it just allowing for static class/method
calls with no object instantiated?
The assignment was intentional... but the reason is that it's my generic
trigger for any function / method. So that this can be used inside of
incomplete functions as well as methods.
?php
class test2 {
static function test3() {
if (__CLASS__) {
trigger_error(__CLASS__ . '::' . __FUNCTION__ . ' is not
finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
} else {
trigger_error(__FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
}
}
}
function test() {
if (__CLASS__) {
trigger_error(__CLASS__ . '::' . __FUNCTION__ . ' is not
finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
} else {
trigger_error(__FUNCTION__ . ' is not finished.', E_USER_WARNING);
}
}
test();
$t2 = new test2();
$t2-test3();
test2::test3();
?
And would not 'if (__CLASS__)' serve just as well?
Good point... no need to assign to the variable; __CLASS__ alone is more
efficient.
--
Teach a man to fish...
NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2
STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php
STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php
LAZY |
http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Wednesday 26 January 2005 02:41, Greg Donald wrote: If one of us newbies gets no answer after a few days, we would realize no one knows the answer and would probably repost the question to another list. The clever newbie will cover all bases and cross-post to as many lists as possible. Anyway who decides what is a newbie question? I don't think a newbie would be in a position to ascertain whether their question is considered newbie. -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.biz Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * -- Search the list archives before you post http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general -- New Year Resolution: Ignore top posted posts -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:54:32 +0800, Jason Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway who decides what is a newbie question? I don't think a newbie would be in a position to ascertain whether their question is considered newbie. My definition of a PHP newbie would be a person who is just starting to learn PHP. I don't think 'newbie' status has anything to do with the actual difficulty in producing a correct answers to their questions. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
or will all you advanced guys/girls spend countless hours repeatedly
asking people to post code, use print_r()/var_dump() etc... without so
much as
halfbaked challenge in sight?
Yes. :-)
Perhaps I should explain why.
Once upon a time, a long time ago, I was new to PHP.
And I was a good little netizen and read the FAQ.
Not claiming I comprehended it all, mind you, but I read it. :-)
After, oh, a half-year or year of PHP (with a good decade of other
languages preceding PHP) I figured I had it licked, and want to do
something general for a form-mail script where I didn't know what all the
POST vars were in advance.
I posted my question.
Some dude named Rasmus Lerdorf was kind enough to answer, succinctly and
clearly, without rancor or chiding:
http://us3.php.net/manual/en/faq.using.php#faq.using.anyform
[Only I believe is was FAQ # 1.4 back then. :-)]
I had not even comprehended that question when I had first read the FAQ
six months earlier, much less the answer to the question. Hell, I barely
understood the FAQ then, but knew how to loop through an array, and sure
enough, there was the stuff I wanted. Onward!
More time went on.
I learned a TON OF [BLEEP] from these guys that kept posting, particularly
these dudes named Rasmus Lerdorf, Andi Gutmans, and Zeev Suraski and ...
One day, for some reason, I looked at the credits of PHP and figured
something out: All these dudes answering my questions and other people's
even more silly questions, were the same dudes that, instead of answering
silly questions, could be FIXING PHP and adding more functions and adding
more modules and...
I had a wish-list of stuff I wanted in PHP.
Now, I know my limitations.
I doubt that I'll ever find time to change PHP source code to put in my
wish-list.
But if I can save Rasmus and those guys an hour a day answering silly
newbie questions, it seems the least I can do to help out, so maybe
they'll have time to implement stuff from my wish-list instead of
answering silly questions.
Maybe I'll be here awhile, maybe I'll be gone awhile (it's happened) but
I'm honored to do my fair share to help out when I can.
YMMV
That's not to say I don't think people should just post away without
reading the FAQ, and doing a Google and whatnot.
Frequently, my answer consists of little more than a link to the docs they
need to read. Maybe they should have found them. Maybe they searched,
but didn't know what the heck it was called that they were searching for.
Maybe they just forgot to re-read the FAQ after a year of using PHP. :-)
I generally figure if they are asking, they probably *DID* put out some
effort. If it's 100% obvious they didn't even try, a link to the manual
is all they get. If they tried, but just plain don't get it -- or if
it's POSSIBLE that's where they are, it's easier to give them the benefit
of the doubt and just explain the docs in English a bit more in depth than
to go back-and-forth with them over several emails to find out why they
are confused.
I've certainly seen a few trigger-happy posts of RTFM and Yes here, when,
in fact, the user was trying to ask/address a much deeper and more complex
issue than was apparent on first reading their post.
Some have even turned into discussions where I ended up learning something.
You take the good with the bad. [shrug]
That's all just my take on it.
Sometimes it works out well.
Sometimes not.
I'm reminded of a time I answered some guy's problem about Oracle not
connecting and I said:
SetEnv('ORACLEHOME', '/path/to/your/oracle/home');
SetEnv('ORACLESID', 'your oracle SID');
-- which I had *NO* idea what any of that meant, as I'd never used Oracle
at the time, and didn't know what SetEnv did, really, but I knew it was
the same damn answer Rasmus/Thies/Whomever had been giving every damn
week for the six months I was on the list... A parrot could have
answered that one.
Anyway, next thing I know, some guy is bitching at me for not helping him
out with his other Oracle problems after that, claiming I was just being
mean and knew the answer but wouldn't help him... [shrug] Takes all
types. I just emailed him back and told the truth. Never used Oracle.
Just repeated the info like a parrot that matched your problem before. No
idea what's going on with you current problem. and that was that. I
think he got it sorted out eventually, and life went on.
As I recall, the last time I thought of trying to fix the mailing list
newbie problem, I was gonna build an AI system to read their email,
match up keywords with the FAQ, and compose a completely automatic email
response if anything matched up. :-) Okay, maybe to a search on php.net
as well, and post a link to that.
I still might do that, I guess, if I find the time... Haven't found the
time in a decade of PHP programming, but anything's possible.
Now, perhaps, an INTERESTING project for some of us to work on would be
that system:
Spec:
Robot subscriber to PHP-General.
Reads all incoming
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Wednesday 26 January 2005 07:27, Greg Donald wrote: On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 06:54:32 +0800, Jason Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Anyway who decides what is a newbie question? I don't think a newbie would be in a position to ascertain whether their question is considered newbie. My definition of a PHP newbie would be a person who is just starting to learn PHP. I don't think 'newbie' status has anything to do with the actual difficulty in producing a correct answers to their questions. So if I understand you correctly -- for all practical purposes the 'content' of the 'newbie' list and the regular list are the same, except that the people asking the questions on the 'newbie' list are people who have just started using PHP? Quite simply -- what's the point? IMO there are no difference between 'newbie' questions and 'non-newbie' questions. Most questions that people deem as 'newbie' are in fact FAQs. It is far better to tell them to RTFM, STFA, STFW etc than to shove them off on a 'newbie' list and forget about them(!). -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.biz Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * -- Search the list archives before you post http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general -- New Year Resolution: Ignore top posted posts -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Richard Lynch mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 3:35 PM said: or will all you advanced guys/girls spend countless hours repeatedly asking people to post code, use print_r()/var_dump() etc... without so much as halfbaked challenge in sight? Yes. :-) Perhaps I should explain why. [snip] You take the good with the bad. [shrug] That's all just my take on it. Sometimes it works out well. Sometimes not. Well said. Now, perhaps, an INTERESTING project for some of us to work on would be that system: [snip] What do you think? Sounds good. Worth doing? Sure. If it could be easily adapted to other mailing lists I'm sure it would be a *very* handy program. Waste of time? See above. Chris. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Richard Lynch wrote: ... Now, perhaps, an INTERESTING project for some of us to work on would be that system: Spec: Robot subscriber to PHP-General. Reads all incoming messages. Discards anything that looks like a 'Reply:' including: Has 'Re: ' or 'Fwd: in subject Has Message ID in-reply-to header thingies Concats Subject and body, with signatures removed. Removes all common English words Searches for remaining [key]words in php.net/faq.php Would it perhaps be better to use a whitelist approach, i.e. have a list of PHP keywords that are in the FAQ / online manual? If any matches, deep-link (with #xyz) to the FAQ answers. If number of remaining [key]words (above) is small, also compose a URL link to http://php.net/remaining+keywords For function names we could just generate a url that goes to the appropriate manual page. Then we can search PHP's site with the rest of the keywords (thanks Google :) Creates a reply email (to original poster only) suggesting that maybe they For those of us reading this message now, we would know about the parrot. But what about new users we pick up in the future? I understand why you suggested this; it will cut down on the list traffic. However, we would still want people to know about the parrot. So perhaps having a weekly message (as per Jay Blanchard) would still be A Good Thing? After we add an entry about our parrot, of course ;) just need to check those links, but to REPLY to their post if they're STILL lost after reading all that stuff. That way, if any of us see a question that we KNOW is answered in FAQ or php.net/xyz and that is not a Reply of some kind, we can let the robot handle it. What do you think? Get a parrot to answer parrot questions... sounds like a reasonable way to handle these things. And if / when wiki development gets going it might be worthwhile to have the robot point there? Worth doing? Waste of time? I tend to think: not a waste. At least, it's not a waste so long as people on the list actually *know* about the parrot and ignore parrot questions. Which is why I still think having the parrot respond on list might be better. You interested in implementing or testing it? Sometimes I am one *bored* accountant... so heck, I just might be willing to give implementing and/or testing a go. However... Got a server where you control smrsh and whatnot enough to handle it? I'm not going to promise any of this. If someone else is willing to donate the hardware to make this happen then contact me / the list. Of course anyone else that wants to donate coding time is more than welcome to join project ParrotHeadPoster. :) I can already imagine it now... I'm a talking phParrot and I think I can help you. Try reading what you find at the following link(s): http://www.php.net/manual/en/faq.html.php#faq.html.your-faq-question.php http://www.php.net/manual/en/your-messed-up-function.php http://www.google.com/search?q=site%3Aphp.net+your+remaining+php+keywords If I didn't solve your problem... well I apologize. What did you expect, lottery numbers or something? I don't think my cable-modem provider would like it if I did this at home, and my shared server host ain't gonna let me add a smrsh file or muck with his mail server -- Hell, he don't even run email through the same machine I have my website on anyway... So I'm not gonna sit down and write the code if I know in advance I can't run it on any hardware that will be feasible in the end. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Wed, 26 Jan 2005 07:46:20 +0800, Jason Wong [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: IMO there are no difference between 'newbie' questions and 'non-newbie' questions. Sure there is. For example a newbie might be needing some help debugging an array and may not have ran into the print_r() manual page yet.. Meanwhile the same newbie probably wouldn't be asking why their shiny new constructor doesn't automatically call the parent class constructor on instantiation. That's two questions that would come from people with very different levels of experience. It's not for us to decide what list a user would subscribe to. It would be up to them to judge which list they think they should post to based on their own experience to date with PHP. Most questions that people deem as 'newbie' are in fact FAQs. Granted.. but that doesn't mean we can never discuss things that are already in print, just because they are already in print. Deleting uninteresting posts is quite simple. It is far better to tell them to RTFM, STFA, STFW etc If that's your modus operandi. I'd rather help with an explanation and a bit of my own personal experience when possible. Sort of how Mr. Lemos likes to send people to his classy site when he can, and how you like to alienate people with RTFM, STFA, STFW etc. than to shove them off on a 'newbie' list and forget about them(!). Well, like I said.. I'd participate. -- Greg Donald Zend Certified Engineer http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
On Wednesday 26 January 2005 09:46, Greg Donald wrote: For example a newbie might be needing some help debugging an array and may not have ran into the print_r() manual page yet.. Meanwhile the same newbie probably wouldn't be asking why their shiny new constructor doesn't automatically call the parent class constructor on instantiation. No, *the* same newbie *might* not. New to php does not necessarily mean new to programming (and new to using resources on the web for that matter). Just because someone is new to php doesn't mean they haven't read the manual from cover to cover and understood 90% of it and aren't allowed to ask (what appears to you and me) non-newbie questions. Anyway isn't the whole point of this exercise an attempt to cut down on the number of FAQs on the list? So in your scenario suppose that every other post in the newbie list is from you pointing out how to use print_r() in debugging, wouldn't that get a tad tedious. Encouraging people to use existing resources is a better use of time than to repeat ad nauseum the same bit of thing. It's not for us to decide what list a user would subscribe to. It would be up to them to judge which list they think they should post to based on their own experience to date with PHP. The last thing a 'newbie' needs is to ponder over which list(s) to subscribe to and which list(s) to post to. I would have thought that the difference between php-general and php-db is pretty clear cut but look at the amount of inappropriate postings to either list. Having a newbie list will just compound that problem. Unless of course you can come up with an unambiguous and clear cut definition of what should and should not go into the newbie list, otherwise it will just become another address for spammers to use. Most questions that people deem as 'newbie' are in fact FAQs. Granted.. but that doesn't mean we can never discuss things that are already in print, just because they are already in print. Deleting uninteresting posts is quite simple. Try telling the archives to delete 'uninteresting' posts. It is far better to tell them to RTFM, STFA, STFW etc If that's your modus operandi. If the manual or some other resource can answer the question better than I then why not? What I detest are the quoting of whole chunks from the manual, what purpose does it serve other than to waste space in the archives and people's mailboxes? I'd rather help with an explanation and a bit of my own personal experience when possible. As do I if the poster appears to have done some homework and just needs clarification or a kick^H^H^H^H nudge in the right direction. than to shove them off on a 'newbie' list and forget about them(!). Well, like I said.. I'd participate. I know you're misguided, but good luck :) -- Jason Wong - Gremlins Associates - www.gremlins.biz Open Source Software Systems Integrators * Web Design Hosting * Internet Intranet Applications Development * -- Search the list archives before you post http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-general -- New Year Resolution: Ignore top posted posts -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: Re[2]: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
* Thus wrote Jay Blanchard: [snip] JB It used to be, but it seems that it hasn't been posted in a while. So I JB retrieved it and posted it. I was thinking about setting up a cron to JB post it every other day or so. I think once a week would be more than enough. You have to actually hope the newbies even read it, most of them don't even think they are newbies :) [/snip] Then we should chnage the header [NEWBIE GUIDE] - READ THIS OR YOU'LL NEVER GET ON THE ISLAND Ok. for some reason I'm not sure why this thread has become such an issue, but here are my thoughts, if they even count... For starters spliting this list into a newbie list vs a non-newbie or greater doesn't make much sense. This is a -general list that has the purpose to ask general questions. An is why most of the 'expreienced' people answer them. If the phpcommunity web site focus's on frequently asked questions, this list will still be bombarded with questions that are asked frequently, and in that case it would be wise too add in the NEWBIE GUIDE a reference to the website in question for the answers. As far as when and how often this piece of informationn should be issued.. well the person that was doing it before was sending it weekly (around monday iirc). And, imo, a rather decent time frame, anyone that frequent's this list will be aware of what the message is about. But then again, as was hinted in this thread, that when a person subscribes to this list will most likely ask their question within 24 hours of doing so. With that in mind, it does raise the question if the 'NEWBIE' post is even efficient. The OT, is provied to a new user to understand the environment they are dealing with and the proper ethics in which he/she is dealing with. Since we're on the topic of proper ways to do things, I find it kind of funny that in order to respond to the whole thread of dicusssion, i have to response to a subthread. Curt -- Quoth the Raven, Nevermore. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [NEWBIE GUIDE] For the benefit of new members
Jochem Maas wrote: Jay Blanchard wrote: ... Jay, great list BTW - I was thinking maybe we could drop it on a site/wiki or something which could also contain stuff that comes up again and again, or stuff that even the 6month y/o newbie finds trivial or just good stuff thats been condensed from the list (kind of a good practice/cool code repository). I know there are lots of places out there already but I think I think that Justin Patrin started up a wiki for PHP, but he hasn't been on the list in a while and I can't remember what the url for his wiki was. But he had a fair amount of useful code in there that would be a great start for this project. ,for instance, the mail archives suck for searching - and often there is plenty of FUD in among the cherries. someone could then send out a weekly NEWBIE email that points them to said site - which in turns introduces them to netiquette, list faqs, etc. having a Wiki type thing would relieve the list of lots of 'O-T' stuff on 'NEWBIE email enhancements'? Yeah the list is pretty high volume... it would be great if we could help relieve the stress on the servers a bit. -- Teach a man to fish... NEW? | http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html STFA | http://marc.theaimsgroup.com/?l=php-generalw=2 STFM | http://www.php.net/manual/en/index.php STFW | http://www.google.com/search?q=php LAZY | http://mycroft.mozdev.org/download.html?name=PHPsubmitform=Find+search+plugins -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
[PHP] Re: [Newbie Guide] For the benefit of new members
Thanks. As a newbie, something I like to try also is making a second file with phps as the extension. Sometimes reading my code in colour helps me see things better. Sometimes I forget a semi-colon ; and will see the problem immediately. Ma Sivakumar wrote: === Please feel free to add more points and send to the list. === 1. If you have any queries/problems about PHP try http://www.php.net/manual/en first. You can download a copy and use it offline also. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Re: [Newbie Guide] For the benefit of new members
On Sat, 11 Sep 2004 10:41:49 -0400, John Taylor-Johnston [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks. As a newbie, something I like to try also is making a second file with phps as the extension. Sometimes reading my code in colour helps me see things better. Sometimes I forget a semi-colon ; and will see the problem immediately. So save yourself a lot of time and get a colorful editor like vim or editplus or something.. :) -- Greg Donald http://destiney.com/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
