Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Regards Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 11:52 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Yeah, I hear C has been replaced too. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . NOT! Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Monday 23 March 2009 12:33:58 Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 11:52 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Yeah, I hear C has been replaced too. Well, I did not see you to write your web app with C. Regards -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 15:58 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: On Monday 23 March 2009 12:33:58 Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 11:52 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Yeah, I hear C has been replaced too. Well, I did not see you to write your web app with C. I write in C still. I have a mud I work on in my spare time... admittedly MUDs aren't a good example since they are dated... but this particular one shares C code, via compile-time macros, with associated PHP extensions to speed up certain aspects of data parsing and evaluation. My point is, just because new techniques and technoloigies come out, is in no way a boundary condition on an existing technology's lifespan or efficacy in any particular environment. The deprecation of usefulness of any technology is based on many more variables than Jquery - The New Game just began. Jquery runs in the browser, it will never replace server side data acquisition, caching, and manipulation. It will merely augment. Moreover, it is completely useless when JavaScript is disabled. Your post also made the assumption that PHP is used for web sites only. Many people are using it for other tasks too. Popularity is also not a useful metric of the demise of a language. It may just be that less people are familiar with JQuery and so there are more questions whereas PHP has been around long enough that the bulk of people interested in it have a good enough foundation in it that they don't need to ask questions. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
At 10:24 AM -0400 3/23/09, Robert Cummings wrote: My point is, just because new techniques and technoloigies come out, is in no way a boundary condition on an existing technology's lifespan or efficacy in any particular environment. The deprecation of usefulness of any technology is based on many more variables than Jquery - The New Game just began. Jquery runs in the browser, it will never replace server side data acquisition, caching, and manipulation. It will merely augment. Moreover, it is completely useless when JavaScript is disabled. Your post also made the assumption that PHP is used for web sites only. Many people are using it for other tasks too. Popularity is also not a useful metric of the demise of a language. It may just be that less people are familiar with JQuery and so there are more questions whereas PHP has been around long enough that the bulk of people interested in it have a good enough foundation in it that they don't need to ask questions. Cheers, Rob. Rob: All good and excellent points. However, I have heard of new javascript being run server-side. What's the likelihood of that catching on and surpassing php? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
2009/3/23 tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com: However, I have heard of new javascript being run server-side. What's the likelihood of that catching on and surpassing php? http://aptana.com/jaxer I really like the idea, but I'm yet to have a good reason to try it. If you're starting from scratch it has the advantage of limiting the skills required. Jaxar sits on top of Apache so I'm not sure what the performance is like. Either way I don't see it gaining much traction these days, at least not quickly. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 10:43 AM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: At 10:24 AM -0400 3/23/09, Robert Cummings wrote: My point is, just because new techniques and technoloigies come out, is in no way a boundary condition on an existing technology's lifespan or efficacy in any particular environment. The deprecation of usefulness of any technology is based on many more variables than Jquery - The New Game just began. Jquery runs in the browser, it will never replace server side data acquisition, caching, and manipulation. It will merely augment. Moreover, it is completely useless when JavaScript is disabled. Your post also made the assumption that PHP is used for web sites only. Many people are using it for other tasks too. Popularity is also not a useful metric of the demise of a language. It may just be that less people are familiar with JQuery and so there are more questions whereas PHP has been around long enough that the bulk of people interested in it have a good enough foundation in it that they don't need to ask questions. Cheers, Rob. Rob: All good and excellent points. However, I have heard of new javascript being run server-side. What's the likelihood of that catching on and surpassing php? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Tedd, JS has been running on MS servers for a long time. It was always viewes as an acceptable replacement for vbscript. -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
RE: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Not to mention the Object Oriented nature of PHP. This looks like a pretty cool idea, but JS OO cannot compare to PHP OO programming. Thanks, Jesse Hazen -Original Message- From: Stuart [mailto:stut...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, March 23, 2009 7:49 AM To: tedd Cc: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? 2009/3/23 tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com: However, I have heard of new javascript being run server-side. What's the likelihood of that catching on and surpassing php? http://aptana.com/jaxer I really like the idea, but I'm yet to have a good reason to try it. If you're starting from scratch it has the advantage of limiting the skills required. Jaxar sits on top of Apache so I'm not sure what the performance is like. Either way I don't see it gaining much traction these days, at least not quickly. -Stuart -- http://stut.net/ -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
-Original Message- From: Sancar Saran [mailto:sancar.sa...@evodot.com] Sent: 23 March 2009 11:52 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Regards Sancar -- You seem to suggest the more you do on client side the less you do on the server. Not sure where you get that from. I'm inclined to think the opposite - the more you do on the client the more you'll need to do on the server. Sure there will be certain types of client apps that will all but eliminate the need for server-side processing, but it's likely more power on the client will mean internet apps are going to be more powerful all round, both client and server side. Arno -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Arno Kuhl wrote: -Original Message- From: Sancar Saran [mailto:sancar.sa...@evodot.com] Sent: 23 March 2009 11:52 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Regards Sancar -- You seem to suggest the more you do on client side the less you do on the server. Not sure where you get that from. I'm inclined to think the opposite - the more you do on the client the more you'll need to do on the server. Sure there will be certain types of client apps that will all but eliminate the need for server-side processing, but it's likely more power on the client will mean internet apps are going to be more powerful all round, both client and server side. Arno Yes, it's very difficult (and probably insecure) to distribute your entire database to all of the clients that might use it. Not to mention all of the libraries: image manipulation, pdf generators, etc... -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:35 AM, Shawn McKenzie nos...@mckenzies.netwrote: Arno Kuhl wrote: -Original Message- From: Sancar Saran [mailto:sancar.sa...@evodot.com] Sent: 23 March 2009 11:52 AM To: php-general@lists.php.net Subject: Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Regards Sancar -- You seem to suggest the more you do on client side the less you do on the server. Not sure where you get that from. I'm inclined to think the opposite - the more you do on the client the more you'll need to do on the server. Sure there will be certain types of client apps that will all but eliminate the need for server-side processing, but it's likely more power on the client will mean internet apps are going to be more powerful all round, both client and server side. Arno Yes, it's very difficult (and probably insecure) to distribute your entire database to all of the clients that might use it. Not to mention all of the libraries: image manipulation, pdf generators, etc... -- Thanks! -Shawn http://www.spidean.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php Flex is gonna be a bigger player in this than js query type manipulation -- Bastien Cat, the other other white meat
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
At 10:50 AM -0400 3/23/09, Bastien Koert wrote: Tedd, JS has been running on MS servers for a long time. It was always viewes as an acceptable replacement for vbscript. Well -- that's been my fear. I think that M$ is trying to get it's foot into this so they can charge for it -- similar to them creating C# as a alternate for Java. Has anyone taken M$ certification lately? Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, Mar 23, 2009 at 11:11 AM, tedd tedd.sperl...@gmail.com wrote: At 10:50 AM -0400 3/23/09, Bastien Koert wrote: Tedd, JS has been running on MS servers for a long time. It was always viewes as an acceptable replacement for vbscript. Well -- that's been my fear. I think that M$ is trying to get it's foot into this so they can charge for it -- similar to them creating C# as a alternate for Java. Has anyone taken M$ certification lately? If anything, guys, it's not going to be Javascript... it will be some other child of the ECMA standard, like ActionScript (which interfaces natively with XML, MXML, and Flash). As for Microsoft and JS, I think they're finally warming up (a bit) to the Open Source initiative: jQuery will be included (AS-IS, WITHOUT MODIFICATION) in the new versions of not only the .NET framework, but in code completion and documentation for the next Visual Studio developer package. I'm not so sure that C# was a replacement for Java, either--more a way to bring C++ (OOP) into the .NET framework while maintaining their new dynamic of safe vs. unsafe code, etc... Related to server-side Javascript... there are MANY languages that offer JS connectors so that JS can be embedded as a scripting language in your application. I'm sure this has been applied to a web application as well as console apps (in lieu of Lua, VBScript, etc.). My 2c. -- // Todd -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 10:43 -0400, tedd wrote: At 10:24 AM -0400 3/23/09, Robert Cummings wrote: My point is, just because new techniques and technoloigies come out, is in no way a boundary condition on an existing technology's lifespan or efficacy in any particular environment. The deprecation of usefulness of any technology is based on many more variables than Jquery - The New Game just began. Jquery runs in the browser, it will never replace server side data acquisition, caching, and manipulation. It will merely augment. Moreover, it is completely useless when JavaScript is disabled. Your post also made the assumption that PHP is used for web sites only. Many people are using it for other tasks too. Popularity is also not a useful metric of the demise of a language. It may just be that less people are familiar with JQuery and so there are more questions whereas PHP has been around long enough that the bulk of people interested in it have a good enough foundation in it that they don't need to ask questions. Cheers, Rob. Rob: All good and excellent points. However, I have heard of new javascript being run server-side. What's the likelihood of that catching on and surpassing php? If I recall correctly Netscape originally developed JavaScript to run server side. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Monday 23 March 2009 16:24:55 Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 15:58 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: On Monday 23 March 2009 12:33:58 Robert Cummings wrote: On Mon, 2009-03-23 at 11:52 +0200, Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. Whole thing of Server Side MVC and other yada yada was became joke. Those server siders become JSON pushers for JS frameworks. Astrosurfing ? Yeah, just compare PHP mailing list vs Jquery Mailing list activity. And The New Game just begun... Yeah, I hear C has been replaced too. Well, I did not see you to write your web app with C. I write in C still. I have a mud I work on in my spare time... admittedly MUDs aren't a good example since they are dated... but this particular one shares C code, via compile-time macros, with associated PHP extensions to speed up certain aspects of data parsing and evaluation. My point is, just because new techniques and technoloigies come out, is in no way a boundary condition on an existing technology's lifespan or efficacy in any particular environment. The deprecation of usefulness of any technology is based on many more variables than Jquery - The New Game just began. Jquery runs in the browser, it will never replace server side data acquisition, caching, and manipulation. It will merely augment. Moreover, it is completely useless when JavaScript is disabled. Your post also made the assumption that PHP is used for web sites only. Many people are using it for other tasks too. Popularity is also not a useful metric of the demise of a language. It may just be that less people are familiar with JQuery and so there are more questions whereas PHP has been around long enough that the bulk of people interested in it have a good enough foundation in it that they don't need to ask questions. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP Well nice :), I wish to able to write C stuff for boosting PHP performance by myself too... And of course, no body will replace C or PHP. And there where a but and very big BUT. When those dynamic web thing begin to appear there where programming language named PERL. And yes it was still aroud here and Slashdot still running perl based code. BUT momentum was lost. No body expect to some ground breaking thing from PERL 6. And Server side become less interesting day by day. Collect request values, generate HTML output and push. Each new server side language or framework do same thing, this way or that way. Web Programming momentum shifting from server side to Javascript. So tellme your last PHP vs Someting else dynamic web language flamewar ? Currently JS guys are busying with fancy effects, browser behavior fix, menus, dom manuplation etc. When they fix things, their next step was content management or someting like that frameworks. Anywhow we well see. PS: Is there any shorh way to learn do someting for PHP with C (My C knowladge was 0) Regards Sancar -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
From: Daniel Kolbo P.P.P.S. What might be nice is to have an online repository of PHP community approved classes, then programmers could mix and match 'modules' as needed...well now I am sounding like that snake oil salesman. You mean something like CPAN over in the Perl arena? Or something more along the lines of Bob Stout's Snippets www.snippets.org? Those archives seem to have served their respective communities quite well, and would be worth emulating. However, don't limit it to classes. There are enough non-OO people that collections of usable function libraries should also be worth assembling. I would also suggest including unit test fixtures and utilities in any collection. Bob McConnell -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. No it won't. People are getting sick and tired of allowing third scripts to modify the DOM - browsers are becoming and will continue to become more restrictive with what JavaScript is allowed to do, and that's a good thing, because a lot of evil is done with JavaScript. Most hacks now are XSS exploits - taking advantage of the fact that users are too stupid to understand that enabling JavaScript is no different than executing e-mail attachments automatically. Just like users *and e-mail clients* wised up during the e-mail virus/worm craze of the late 90s (IE I love you etc.) - users and browsers are wising up as well. Generating your content server side is not subject to what the browser and/or user allow scripts to do client side, heavy DHTML like what some are experimenting with will go the way of the dodo bird. I suspect that in the future, perhaps not this exactly but something like this will be common place - a script node will have a new attribute, the value of which is an id that must exist in the DOM before the script is run. The script will only be allowed to modify the DOM elements that matches that id and it's children. Script nodes without that attribute won't be allowed to modify the DOM at all, and the DOM elements will have a mechanism (IE an attribute tag) that can completely protect them from modification by any script., etc. Using script to modify a document DOM will still take place, but it will be a lot more difficult, and more likely to fail due to browser/user imposed limitations. Thus creating the DOM will take place server side where it belongs. Maybe server side JavaScript will be a competitor to php in some situations, but server side page generation is not getting replaced by client side DHTML anytime soon. //just my two cents and thoughts - I'm not an expert in web tech -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Daniel Kolbo wrote: P.P.P.S. What might be nice is to have an online repository of PHP community approved classes, then programmers could mix and match 'modules' as needed...well now I am sounding like that snake oil salesman. There is a php class web site that focuses on OO programming where members of the php community can submit and rate various classes. I've found some useful stuff there. http://www.phpclasses.org/ Most of the classes you can only download if you register, but registering is free and makes sense because class feedback should only be from registered users. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Bob McConnell wrote: However, don't limit it to classes. There are enough non-OO people that collections of usable function libraries should also be worth assembling. I would also suggest including unit test fixtures and utilities in any collection. Bob McConnell Most functions can be wrapped in a class and probably should be for public distribution as it avoids function name clashes (though you still have class name clashes to worry about ...) If as a programmer you find a particular function nifty but don't care for the class, you can always rip it out of the class for your own use. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Sorry for top posting, but here goes... Stopping third party js from running on the client will never happen. If so, you just killed your servers thru put in attempting to handle things like google maps, google analytics and other fun things coming out of companies like that ( google, zoho etc ). Your server will never handle a large load like that for any number of users. Using third party items ( js, images, flash and other embedded items ) is what makes the Internet so efficient. The nature of distributed systems allows the whole system to suceed. What you are describing is nothing more than poor coding and a lack of data validation, which unfortunately is endemic to many sites with lots of people being able to build stuff with GUI tools like dreamweaver. That's why it pays to hire a pro, not the teenager down the street. They don't have the basic understanding of what and what not to do, what things are dangerous to allow nor how to sanatize data to ensure that the site or the users are not gonna get screwed. Professionals, mostly, pay attention to the details that surround making a site work. It's what we get paid for. Bastien Sent from my iPod On Mar 23, 2009, at 20:24, Michael A. Peters mpet...@mac.com wrote: Sancar Saran wrote: Probably a bit off topic and The Game is over man. Javascript coming with flank speed. Next generation JS Framworks will take html generation jobs from server side. No it won't. People are getting sick and tired of allowing third scripts to modify the DOM - browsers are becoming and will continue to become more restrictive with what JavaScript is allowed to do, and that's a good thing, because a lot of evil is done with JavaScript. Most hacks now are XSS exploits - taking advantage of the fact that users are too stupid to understand that enabling JavaScript is no different than executing e-mail attachments automatically. Just like users *and e-mail clients* wised up during the e-mail virus/worm craze of the late 90s (IE I love you etc.) - users and browsers are wising up as well. Generating your content server side is not subject to what the browser and/or user allow scripts to do client side, heavy DHTML like what some are experimenting with will go the way of the dodo bird. I suspect that in the future, perhaps not this exactly but something like this will be common place - a script node will have a new attribute, the value of which is an id that must exist in the DOM before the script is run. The script will only be allowed to modify the DOM elements that matches that id and it's children. Script nodes without that attribute won't be allowed to modify the DOM at all, and the DOM elements will have a mechanism (IE an attribute tag) that can completely protect them from modification by any script., etc. Using script to modify a document DOM will still take place, but it will be a lot more difficult, and more likely to fail due to browser/ user imposed limitations. Thus creating the DOM will take place server side where it belongs. Maybe server side JavaScript will be a competitor to php in some situations, but server side page generation is not getting replaced by client side DHTML anytime soon. //just my two cents and thoughts - I'm not an expert in web tech -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Phpster wrote: Sorry for top posting, but here goes... Stopping third party js from running on the client will never happen. If so, you just killed your servers thru put in attempting to handle things like google maps, google analytics and other fun things coming out of companies like that ( google, zoho etc ). Your server will never handle a large load like that for any number of users. I didn't say third party scripts should not be used. I did say that you will need to specify a particular part of the page the third party script is allowed to modify - both in your document (by setting an ID attribute) and in the script node that calls the third party script (by setting an attribute telling the browser what part of the DOM the script may modify) Using third party items ( js, images, flash and other embedded items ) is what makes the Internet so efficient. The nature of distributed systems allows the whole system to suceed. It also is what makes the internet dangerous when it is not done in a secure way. What you are describing is nothing more than poor coding and a lack of data validation, which unfortunately is endemic to many sites with lots of people being able to build stuff with GUI tools like dreamweaver. That's why it pays to hire a pro, not the teenager down the street. Since the internet is (and should remain) a place where anyone can publish, that kind of thing will remain - and as such, browsers out of necessity will be far more restrictive with what scripting can do and users will be a lot more paranoid about what they let scripts do. There's a reason why NoScript is one of the most popular Mozilla add-ons. As a NoScript user, I can tell you right now - you really on client side dhtml for your content, I just left your site and went somewhere else, because it didn't work for me. I *may* decide to allow scripts to execute from your domain, but if anything more is needed than that, I'll just read your page from google's cache. -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
On Sun, 2009-03-22 at 10:54 -1000, Daniel Kolbo wrote: Hello, I changed the subject because I did not want to steal Nitsan's thread. I hope you started a New email and didn't just change the subject... otherwise you've hijacked the thread. I can't tell I keep threading off. There seem to be a ton of frameworks, one-click installation web applications, the latest and greatest wiz-bang applications out there. I find myself extremely reluctant to dig into these code sets. It seems when I do attempt to use one of these pre-coded applications I end up eventually wanting to modify the code outside of the original extent of the project. Invariably I get frustrated and end up wishing I initially begun the development from scratch. Employers seem to be wanting me to have experience with all kinds of 'gimicky' solutions, but I am reluctant to be constantly learning new applications (that i'd prefer to rewrite myself). Am I just being hard headed and reluctant to change, or is my stance justified? I suppose the answer is the middle-path. That is, read some new projects, take the bits I like, leave the bits I don't, etc...The problem is this isn't very marketable. But I suppose, the proof is in the pudding. What a banal way to end an email, eh? What are your thoughts in regard to these two forces: wiz-bang frameworks vs. raw php development? thanks, I have my own framework that I wrote from scratch. I still learn other frameworks to some degree. Clients don't want you writing something from scratch when you can use something off the shelf. Preferrably you can hit the ground almost running with anything put before you, and hopefully they can give you that benefit of the doubt. Do I suggest you learn all frameworks? No! But do round yourself out and show that you are flexible. Nobody wants an immovable object in front of them. Cheers, Rob. -- http://www.interjinn.com Application and Templating Framework for PHP -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
My personal take on this goes something like this: I'm not a huge fan of re-inventing the wheel. However, it seems that since the first stable release of PHP 5 into the wild a much needed emphasis has been placed on OOP solutions within the PHP world. Don't read me wrong, I know the importance wasn't lost on folks who already had a good programming head on their shoulders, yet, in all fairness our hands were a bit tied (and I feel that I may receive some argument here) until PHP 5 reached its first stable release. That being said, I find that quite a few of the frameworks still seem to be fledglings and a lot of the new OS projects being built on them are like wheels with some lumps. Even a few commercial projects seem to be like this. I also have a positive outlook with PHP5 and 6 and that is that this language is finally reaching maturity. It is something that I believe and hope allow for continued growth of our new projects without feeling the need to dump them like I saw with the PHP4 projects. On a final rambling note, I like some of the new frameworks I've looked into recently, like CodeIgniter, Yii even Sapphire holds some promise (have a look at the cleaner version in progress). I find myself wanting to add to them, wanting to help improve them and occasionally I too have a fleeting moment where I think How would my framework be different if I built one from scratch? Then I realize I don't have that kind of time! lol My clients are waiting. Also, I don't seem to have much trouble switching between frameworks or languages for that matter (PERL, PHP, ASP(bleh), JavaScript, ActionScript) and I guess because of that I find myself just trying to find the best solution for the clients need at hand and build from there. -Original Message- From: Daniel Kolbo [mailto:kolb0...@umn.edu] Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 4:54 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Cc: Tony Marston Subject: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? Tony Marston wrote: Nitsan Bin-Nun nit...@binnun.co.il wrote in message news:d47da0100903220910q7bb66706s6255f0fc89b98...@mail.gmail.com... Don't forget to attach the message to the list. Regarding the frameworks, which of them, for your opinion, will take the fastest time to learn and get into code? Generally speaking if something is fast to learn it is also the first to run out of steam. If it doesn't have more features than you can learn in five minutes the it doesn't have enough features to do anything useful, or with any degree of flexibility. Hello, I changed the subject because I did not want to steal Nitsan's thread. There seem to be a ton of frameworks, one-click installation web applications, the latest and greatest wiz-bang applications out there. I find myself extremely reluctant to dig into these code sets. It seems when I do attempt to use one of these pre-coded applications I end up eventually wanting to modify the code outside of the original extent of the project. Invariably I get frustrated and end up wishing I initially begun the development from scratch. Employers seem to be wanting me to have experience with all kinds of 'gimicky' solutions, but I am reluctant to be constantly learning new applications (that i'd prefer to rewrite myself). Am I just being hard headed and reluctant to change, or is my stance justified? I suppose the answer is the middle-path. That is, read some new projects, take the bits I like, leave the bits I don't, etc...The problem is this isn't very marketable. But I suppose, the proof is in the pudding. What a banal way to end an email, eh? What are your thoughts in regard to these two forces: wiz-bang frameworks vs. raw php development? thanks, __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3953 (20090321) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3953 (20090321) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate?
Marc Christopher Hall wrote: My personal take on this goes something like this: I'm not a huge fan of re-inventing the wheel. However, it seems that since the first stable release of PHP 5 into the wild a much needed emphasis has been placed on OOP solutions within the PHP world. Don't read me wrong, I know the importance wasn't lost on folks who already had a good programming head on their shoulders, yet, in all fairness our hands were a bit tied (and I feel that I may receive some argument here) until PHP 5 reached its first stable release. That being said, I find that quite a few of the frameworks still seem to be fledglings and a lot of the new OS projects being built on them are like wheels with some lumps. Even a few commercial projects seem to be like this. I also have a positive outlook with PHP5 and 6 and that is that this language is finally reaching maturity. It is something that I believe and hope allow for continued growth of our new projects without feeling the need to dump them like I saw with the PHP4 projects. On a final rambling note, I like some of the new frameworks I've looked into recently, like CodeIgniter, Yii even Sapphire holds some promise (have a look at the cleaner version in progress). I find myself wanting to add to them, wanting to help improve them and occasionally I too have a fleeting moment where I think How would my framework be different if I built one from scratch? Then I realize I don't have that kind of time! lol My clients are waiting. Also, I don't seem to have much trouble switching between frameworks or languages for that matter (PERL, PHP, ASP(bleh), JavaScript, ActionScript) and I guess because of that I find myself just trying to find the best solution for the clients need at hand and build from there. -Original Message- From: Daniel Kolbo [mailto:kolb0...@umn.edu] Sent: Sunday, March 22, 2009 4:54 PM To: php-general@lists.php.net Cc: Tony Marston Subject: [PHP] Frameworks / obstinate? Tony Marston wrote: Nitsan Bin-Nun nit...@binnun.co.il wrote in message news:d47da0100903220910q7bb66706s6255f0fc89b98...@mail.gmail.com... Don't forget to attach the message to the list. Regarding the frameworks, which of them, for your opinion, will take the fastest time to learn and get into code? Generally speaking if something is fast to learn it is also the first to run out of steam. If it doesn't have more features than you can learn in five minutes the it doesn't have enough features to do anything useful, or with any degree of flexibility. Hello, I changed the subject because I did not want to steal Nitsan's thread. There seem to be a ton of frameworks, one-click installation web applications, the latest and greatest wiz-bang applications out there. I find myself extremely reluctant to dig into these code sets. It seems when I do attempt to use one of these pre-coded applications I end up eventually wanting to modify the code outside of the original extent of the project. Invariably I get frustrated and end up wishing I initially begun the development from scratch. Employers seem to be wanting me to have experience with all kinds of 'gimicky' solutions, but I am reluctant to be constantly learning new applications (that i'd prefer to rewrite myself). Am I just being hard headed and reluctant to change, or is my stance justified? I suppose the answer is the middle-path. That is, read some new projects, take the bits I like, leave the bits I don't, etc...The problem is this isn't very marketable. But I suppose, the proof is in the pudding. What a banal way to end an email, eh? What are your thoughts in regard to these two forces: wiz-bang frameworks vs. raw php development? thanks, __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3953 (20090321) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com __ Information from ESET Smart Security, version of virus signature database 3953 (20090321) __ The message was checked by ESET Smart Security. http://www.eset.com Marc, Thanks for the thoughts. [quote]I find myself just trying to find the best solution for the clients need at hand and build from there.[/quote] Certainly the above is the mainstream/business approach. After all, they (businesses) need solutions today and not tomorrow. However, this is the culture that only serves to exemplify my point. All of these one-click-solutions are for today, who is looking out for tomorrow? Who is doing the long term planning? Instead of our snake oil salesmen, who is selling long term stability/flexibility. Is it even possible to make money when thinking about the long term. Is there money for the conservative visionary or is it only for the radical lose cannon. I guess I really ought to set up a web maintenance company for all of these businesses that are
