Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Reclaiming water from the sewer: The $1BN Megaproject to Save California: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lpYVi2OkwQ On 2024-06-23 06:24, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss wrote: In Tucson there is a park named "Randolph Park". It is about a square mile in size. They water the park with reclaimed water. It does have a slight odor to it. Yikes!! I like my coffee with the slight odor of recycle..Yummy!!! Ok, so I am a Christian and in the Bible God says to subdue the earth. If God wants us to populate the earth then there must be a plan? I think in a nutshell the problem is we have not asked God for wisdom. His word promises if we ask for wisdom he will provide wisdom. Keith On 2024-06-23 06:03, Jim via PLUG-discuss wrote: Water can be made fit to drink again. I'm reminded of the joke that says: What do they make today's coffee with on the space station? Yesterday's coffee. On 6/22/24 06:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: Can water for agricultural use be reclaimed? Other than it eventually making its way back into the water table? Water could also be recycled/treated such that it's good for agricultural use but not for consumption, which I imagine would be cheaper than fully reclaiming the water, which could then be used for agriculture rather than fresh water. The extra... lets call them nutrients... that are unsuitable for human consumption may help fertilize the plants as well. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
In Tucson there is a park named "Randolph Park". It is about a square mile in size. They water the park with reclaimed water. It does have a slight odor to it. Yikes!! I like my coffee with the slight odor of recycle..Yummy!!! Ok, so I am a Christian and in the Bible God says to subdue the earth. If God wants us to populate the earth then there must be a plan? I think in a nutshell the problem is we have not asked God for wisdom. His word promises if we ask for wisdom he will provide wisdom. Keith On 2024-06-23 06:03, Jim via PLUG-discuss wrote: Water can be made fit to drink again. I'm reminded of the joke that says: What do they make today's coffee with on the space station? Yesterday's coffee. On 6/22/24 06:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: Can water for agricultural use be reclaimed? Other than it eventually making its way back into the water table? Water could also be recycled/treated such that it's good for agricultural use but not for consumption, which I imagine would be cheaper than fully reclaiming the water, which could then be used for agriculture rather than fresh water. The extra... lets call them nutrients... that are unsuitable for human consumption may help fertilize the plants as well. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Yikes!! On 2024-06-23 05:57, Jim via PLUG-discuss wrote: Thanks for reminding me of George Carlin's Things to watch out for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEKx1P7AOA On 6/22/24 19:49, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss said on Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:05:35 -0400 Long term - I don't think the growth curve AZ is on is sustainable without burying the water transport (converting canals to pipes) to avoid evaporation from the exposed surface, but that has it's own set of issues as well. Short term - it scares me. The situation is tenable, but it's on a razor's edge, and if there are issues with the dams/reservoirs, and the supply, it's going to hurt. A lot. Ugh! Long term every place on earth is in danger. I live in Florida, where because of increasing frequency of category 3 through 5 hurricanes, house insurance will soon be unavailable. On moving to Orlando in 1998, summer bicycle riding was uncomfortable but doable. With a hotter climate and developers cutting down solar energy absorbing trees, in June through September you can ride only the first 2 hours after sunrise and the last 2 hours before sunset. California is burning up, literally. Fires all over the place. When I lived in Chicago 1949-1980, a window fan would suffice. Now Chicagoans die in heat events because their homes and apartments were (understandably at the time) built without air conditioning. At various parts of the midwest, farmers suffer because alternating floods and droughts raise their crop insurance to the point of non-profitability. Food will become less and less available to the non-rich. Small islands are getting drowned by higher water levels. China, India and Mexico City have horrible pollution, and people are dying from respiratory problems. As development encroaches on formerly uninhabited areas, oxygen-supplying trees disappear and new-to-human microbes are let loose. There will be a worldwide population decline. I hope it's done with birth control, but fear it will be from heat, floods, disease, and scarcity. How's that for OT :_) SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Water can be made fit to drink again. I'm reminded of the joke that says: What do they make today's coffee with on the space station? Yesterday's coffee. On 6/22/24 06:36, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: Can water for agricultural use be reclaimed? Other than it eventually making its way back into the water table? Water could also be recycled/treated such that it's good for agricultural use but not for consumption, which I imagine would be cheaper than fully reclaiming the water, which could then be used for agriculture rather than fresh water. The extra... lets call them nutrients... that are unsuitable for human consumption may help fertilize the plants as well. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Thanks for reminding me of George Carlin's Things to watch out for. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FwEKx1P7AOA On 6/22/24 19:49, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss said on Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:05:35 -0400 Long term - I don't think the growth curve AZ is on is sustainable without burying the water transport (converting canals to pipes) to avoid evaporation from the exposed surface, but that has it's own set of issues as well. Short term - it scares me. The situation is tenable, but it's on a razor's edge, and if there are issues with the dams/reservoirs, and the supply, it's going to hurt. A lot. Ugh! Long term every place on earth is in danger. I live in Florida, where because of increasing frequency of category 3 through 5 hurricanes, house insurance will soon be unavailable. On moving to Orlando in 1998, summer bicycle riding was uncomfortable but doable. With a hotter climate and developers cutting down solar energy absorbing trees, in June through September you can ride only the first 2 hours after sunrise and the last 2 hours before sunset. California is burning up, literally. Fires all over the place. When I lived in Chicago 1949-1980, a window fan would suffice. Now Chicagoans die in heat events because their homes and apartments were (understandably at the time) built without air conditioning. At various parts of the midwest, farmers suffer because alternating floods and droughts raise their crop insurance to the point of non-profitability. Food will become less and less available to the non-rich. Small islands are getting drowned by higher water levels. China, India and Mexico City have horrible pollution, and people are dying from respiratory problems. As development encroaches on formerly uninhabited areas, oxygen-supplying trees disappear and new-to-human microbes are let loose. There will be a worldwide population decline. I hope it's done with birth control, but fear it will be from heat, floods, disease, and scarcity. How's that for OT :_) SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: VERY OT, DO NOT READ THIS! (wind power, was Re: OT Humidity, was time off) Do not read, do not follow up! ;-)
Apologies as I meant to include this, but I used the wrong reply-to address, which bounced it from PLUG. Here is the article. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-021-02089-2 I don't know if the wind power we are capable of collecting is sufficient enough to alter weather patterns, but there are more issues we need to think about than simply NIMBY effects and impacting bird migration routes. -Matt On 6/22/24 4:56 PM, Stephen Partington via PLUG-discuss wrote: And the cities we have built? the changes have already been made in some places. On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 5:45 PM Rusty Carruth via PLUG-discuss wrote: Matthew Crews had an interesting reference, which I skimmed. Apparently there is a 6% change in a non-trivial distance downwind from the wind farm. If my skimming was accurate, that was measured difference, but the simulation apparently was similar. (But now we've gotten beyond my skimming powers - there's a LOT of info in that reference!) On 6/21/24 18:57, George Toft via PLUG-discuss wrote: > Pump up the noise! > > Whereas megawatts of power is being removed from the kinetic energy of > the wind, how much of the total is it? How wide is the wind, and how > high, compared to the size of the wind farm? The windmills remove some > fraction of a percent. I think this qualifies as "a gnat's fart in a > hurricane" worth of difference... unless you have some references to > support your assertion? > > Regards, > > George Toft > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list:PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss said on Sat, 22 Jun 2024 09:05:35 -0400 >Long term - I don't think the growth curve AZ is on is sustainable >without burying the water transport (converting canals to pipes) to >avoid evaporation from the exposed surface, but that has it's own set >of issues as well. > >Short term - it scares me. The situation is tenable, but it's on a >razor's edge, and if there are issues with the dams/reservoirs, and >the supply, it's going to hurt. A lot. Ugh! Long term every place on earth is in danger. I live in Florida, where because of increasing frequency of category 3 through 5 hurricanes, house insurance will soon be unavailable. On moving to Orlando in 1998, summer bicycle riding was uncomfortable but doable. With a hotter climate and developers cutting down solar energy absorbing trees, in June through September you can ride only the first 2 hours after sunrise and the last 2 hours before sunset. California is burning up, literally. Fires all over the place. When I lived in Chicago 1949-1980, a window fan would suffice. Now Chicagoans die in heat events because their homes and apartments were (understandably at the time) built without air conditioning. At various parts of the midwest, farmers suffer because alternating floods and droughts raise their crop insurance to the point of non-profitability. Food will become less and less available to the non-rich. Small islands are getting drowned by higher water levels. China, India and Mexico City have horrible pollution, and people are dying from respiratory problems. As development encroaches on formerly uninhabited areas, oxygen-supplying trees disappear and new-to-human microbes are let loose. There will be a worldwide population decline. I hope it's done with birth control, but fear it will be from heat, floods, disease, and scarcity. How's that for OT :_) SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: VERY OT, DO NOT READ THIS! (wind power, was Re: OT Humidity, was time off) Do not read, do not follow up! ;-)
And the cities we have built? the changes have already been made in some places. On Sat, Jun 22, 2024 at 5:45 PM Rusty Carruth via PLUG-discuss < plug-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org> wrote: > Matthew Crews had an interesting reference, which I skimmed. Apparently > there is a 6% change in a non-trivial distance downwind from the > wind farm. If my skimming was accurate, that was measured difference, > but the simulation apparently was similar. (But now we've gotten beyond > my skimming powers - there's a LOT of info in that reference!) > > On 6/21/24 18:57, George Toft via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > Pump up the noise! > > > > Whereas megawatts of power is being removed from the kinetic energy of > > the wind, how much of the total is it? How wide is the wind, and how > > high, compared to the size of the wind farm? The windmills remove some > > fraction of a percent. I think this qualifies as "a gnat's fart in a > > hurricane" worth of difference... unless you have some references to > > support your assertion? > > > > Regards, > > > > George Toft > > > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > -- A mouse trap, placed on top of your alarm clock, will prevent you from rolling over and going back to sleep after you hit the snooze button. Stephen --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: VERY OT, DO NOT READ THIS! (wind power, was Re: OT Humidity, was time off) Do not read, do not follow up! ;-)
Matthew Crews had an interesting reference, which I skimmed. Apparently there is a 6% change in a non-trivial distance downwind from the wind farm. If my skimming was accurate, that was measured difference, but the simulation apparently was similar. (But now we've gotten beyond my skimming powers - there's a LOT of info in that reference!) On 6/21/24 18:57, George Toft via PLUG-discuss wrote: Pump up the noise! Whereas megawatts of power is being removed from the kinetic energy of the wind, how much of the total is it? How wide is the wind, and how high, compared to the size of the wind farm? The windmills remove some fraction of a percent. I think this qualifies as "a gnat's fart in a hurricane" worth of difference... unless you have some references to support your assertion? Regards, George Toft --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Can water for agricultural use be reclaimed? Other than it eventually making its way back into the water table? Water could also be recycled/treated such that it's good for agricultural use but not for consumption, which I imagine would be cheaper than fully reclaiming the water, which could then be used for agriculture rather than fresh water. The extra... lets call them nutrients... that are unsuitable for human consumption may help fertilize the plants as well. On Fri, Jun 21, 2024, at 2:38 PM, George Toft via PLUG-discuss wrote: > "Coming lack of water" is going to be handled by zero-waste. 100% > recycling all waste water. Think about that for a minute... yes, all > that water that is flushed down the sewer will be reclaimed and recycled > into potable water. Unimaginable? Google: Toilet to tap. And yes, your > cities are already considering it or doing it. Stay hydrated :) > > https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2023/04/12/toilet-to-tap-recycling-wastewater-drinking-water-safe/70104828007/ > > Regards, > > George Toft > > On 6/20/2024 5:14 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 20 Jun 2024 04:05:30 -0700 > > > >> I lived in Florida for ~10 years myself, in the Ft. Walton > >> Beach/Navarre/Pensacola areas, and got my degree there at UWF. > >> Sometimes I wish I were still there but I'm enjoying the non-humidity > >> of Arizona for now. > > How do you like the 115 degree days? :-) And what are you guys going to > > do about the coming lack of water? > > > > One thing I love about hot dry climates (I used to live in the San > > Fernando Valley just outside LA) is that you can use evaporative > > coolers. That can save you a bundle of money. Here in Orlando Florida > > where I live, if you tried that, you'd just sweat even more and you'd > > melt the wallpaper right off the walls :-) > > > > Keep hydrated! > > > > SteveT > > > > Steve Litt > > > > http://444domains.com > > --- > > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
I'm hoping that all those business that are growing warehouses along I-10/303 and the Taiwan chip maker (TSMC) have all done their due diligence and there is a reasonable expectation that we will have water for a long while. How's that for sticking my head into the sand. On 2024-06-22 06:05, Thomas Scott via PLUG-discuss wrote: It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means less water use. This is not a typical LUG convo, but this one really peaked my interest. I grew up around the farming community, and still have family members who are heavily involved in water discussions as their livelihoods depend on it. To categorize this as FUD, is naive at best. History lesson time, with broad generalizations and without sources (I care, but not that much): The metro phoenix-tucson area, as a Western construct, was built around water, and canals, and farming, with a little bit of mining support for Eastern AZ. You bring water in, you farm, and you ship out your harvest. Arizona has good soil, and (for farming) an amazing amount of sunshine, we grow some of the finest cotton (Pima) in the world because of the heat, and access to irrigation. There are two main canal systems, listed below with their start dates 1903 - SRP (Salt River project): Salt and Verde Rivers 1986 - CAP (Central Arizona Project): Colorado River They both provide millions of acre feet per year for the state's water supply. The Salt and Verde are tributary and snow melt fed, mainly in AZ, but also in Western New Mexico. The Colorado from snow melt in the Rockies, and is governed by compact among the states that border it. Both have produced the water necessary for AZ to grow, and supply residential, industrial, and agricultural needs. The pecking order has been residential/industrial and then ag. Ag for years has received that allocation of surplus and distributed it using irrigation districts to farmers who then grow crops with it. CAP, relying on the drought-affected Colorado River is topped out. SRP, with its multiple reservoirs and groundwater sources, has managed to maintain a more stable supply. Residential and industrial usege has completely taken over the CAP allocations (they were designed that way), but SRP still will provide for some time. Arizona builders have to secure an AWS certificate saying that they've secured ground water for 100 years for their builds. The drought and increased water pulls from all sides have made that situation tenable for the moment, but if AZ continues to grow, there's a question of for how long. Long term - I don't think the growth curve AZ is on is sustainable without burying the water transport (converting canals to pipes) to avoid evaporation from the exposed surface, but that has it's own set of issues as well. Short term - it scares me. The situation is tenable, but it's on a razor's edge, and if there are issues with the dams/reservoirs, and the supply, it's going to hurt. A lot. Best Regards, -Thomas Scott On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 7:39 PM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote: Hey guys, Actually, our current lack of water (and the current drought were in), as part of a 550 year-long cycle. This particular cycle started somewhere between 1982 and 1986 with one of the driest years we had, sometime in the last 10 years. And yes, this heat wave that we’re suffering through is actually part of that. The same Sometime in the last 10 years. And yes, this heat wave that were suffering through is actually part of that. The same thing happened from 700 years ago which pretty well deep populated the entire desert Southwest (that would explain all those ruins all over the place that date back to that time). Also, as far as human interaction on the environment is concerned, it’s mostly local (take a look at the heat dome over Phoenix as it only exists over the valley of the sun and not much else except for maybe Tucson). Those are pretty well localized effects and, they do have an impact. As for agricultural use of land, this environment is perfect for growing some kinds of foods that will not grow in other places. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t seem to realize that food is needed, and there are better ways to water those fields instead of using just irrigation. Yes, we do have a waterfall here, and yes, it is going to get worse. I give it another 500 years or so before we’re back into wet cycle (and yeah, all the allocation of the Colorado river was made during a period when there was substantially more rainfall than there is now). I have done a lot of research on this, so I pretty well know what it is. I’m talking about. BTW, welcome to the drought that is normal for this part of the world (California tree study confirmed this quite some time ago, and you can actually look it up). – Eric From the central offices of the Te
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
> It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential > land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So > every acre converted means less water use. This is not a typical LUG convo, but this one really peaked my interest. I grew up around the farming community, and still have family members who are heavily involved in water discussions as their livelihoods depend on it. To categorize this as FUD, is naive at best. History lesson time, with broad generalizations and without sources (I care, but not that much): The metro phoenix-tucson area, as a Western construct, was built around water, and canals, and farming, with a little bit of mining support for Eastern AZ. You bring water in, you farm, and you ship out your harvest. Arizona has good soil, and (for farming) an amazing amount of sunshine, we grow some of the finest cotton (Pima) in the world because of the heat, and access to irrigation. There are two main canal systems, listed below with their start dates 1903 - SRP (Salt River project): Salt and Verde Rivers 1986 - CAP (Central Arizona Project): Colorado River They both provide millions of acre feet per year for the state's water supply. The Salt and Verde are tributary and snow melt fed, mainly in AZ, but also in Western New Mexico. The Colorado from snow melt in the Rockies, and is governed by compact among the states that border it. Both have produced the water necessary for AZ to grow, and supply residential, industrial, and agricultural needs. The pecking order has been residential/industrial and then ag. Ag for years has received that allocation of surplus and distributed it using irrigation districts to farmers who then grow crops with it. CAP, relying on the drought-affected Colorado River is topped out. SRP, with its multiple reservoirs and groundwater sources, has managed to maintain a more stable supply. Residential and industrial usege has completely taken over the CAP allocations (they were designed that way), but SRP still will provide for some time. Arizona builders have to secure an AWS certificate saying that they've secured ground water for 100 years for their builds. The drought and increased water pulls from all sides have made that situation tenable for the moment, but if AZ continues to grow, there's a question of for how long. Long term - I don't think the growth curve AZ is on is sustainable without burying the water transport (converting canals to pipes) to avoid evaporation from the exposed surface, but that has it's own set of issues as well. Short term - it scares me. The situation is tenable, but it's on a razor's edge, and if there are issues with the dams/reservoirs, and the supply, it's going to hurt. A lot. Best Regards, -Thomas Scott On Fri, Jun 21, 2024 at 7:39 PM Eric Oyen via PLUG-discuss wrote: > > Hey guys, > > Actually, our current lack of water (and the current drought were in), as > part of a 550 year-long cycle. This particular cycle started somewhere > between 1982 and 1986 with one of the driest years we had, sometime in the > last 10 years. And yes, this heat wave that we’re suffering through is > actually part of that. The same Sometime in the last 10 years. And yes, this > heat wave that were suffering through is actually part of that. The same > thing happened from 700 years ago which pretty well deep populated the entire > desert Southwest (that would explain all those ruins all over the place that > date back to that time). Also, as far as human interaction on the > environment is concerned, it’s mostly local (take a look at the heat dome > over Phoenix as it only exists over the valley of the sun and not much else > except for maybe Tucson). Those are pretty well localized effects and, they > do have an impact. > > As for agricultural use of land, this environment is perfect for growing some > kinds of foods that will not grow in other places. Unfortunately, a lot of > people don’t seem to realize that food is needed, and there are better ways > to water those fields instead of using just irrigation. Yes, we do have a > waterfall here, and yes, it is going to get worse. I give it another 500 > years or so before we’re back into wet cycle (and yeah, all the allocation of > the Colorado river was made during a period when there was substantially more > rainfall than there is now). > > I have done a lot of research on this, so I pretty well know what it is. I’m > talking about. BTW, welcome to the drought that is normal for this part of > the world (California tree study confirmed this quite some time ago, and you > can actually look it up). > > – Eric > From the central offices of the Technomage guild, Environmental research > department > Sent from my iPhone > > > On Jun 21, 2024, at 6:20 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss > > wrote: > > > > Interesting topic. I wonder how it will workout. > > > > I read an article last year about a couple in Tucson that
Re: VERY OT, DO NOT READ THIS! (wind power, was Re: OT Humidity, was time off) Do not read, do not follow up! ;-)
Pump up the noise! Whereas megawatts of power is being removed from the kinetic energy of the wind, how much of the total is it? How wide is the wind, and how high, compared to the size of the wind farm? The windmills remove some fraction of a percent. I think this qualifies as "a gnat's fart in a hurricane" worth of difference... unless you have some references to support your assertion? Regards, George Toft On 6/21/2024 3:33 PM, Rusty Carruth via PLUG-discuss wrote: Ok, we are SO FAR off-topic that I shouldn't say anything, and I apologize for adding to the noise! However, I have one comment. For many years I was a BIG fan of wind power. Now, however, I've realized that nobody has calculated the effect of removing MEGAWATTS of power from the wind. Think about it - what is one of the major 'causes' of rainfall (especially around mountains)? Wind. Pushing the air and water up the mountain, where it cools, condenses, and rains. But we're removing MEGAWATTS of power from the wind! What effect is that extremely likely to have? Um, less rain! If I thought it would make any difference in our mad rush to fulfill the predictions of drought and global (whatever-ing), I'd spend time doing research, but I'm pretty sure 'nobody really cares'. Or whatever. Ok, sorry for adding to the noise. You may now return to your regularly scheduled flame-fest! On 6/20/24 20:11, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 6/20/24 6:16 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means /less/ water use. I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is trying to take a larger portion of it. I disagree that it is FUD, but there is certainly a lot of blame to go around. The fact of the matter is, the Colorado River has been drying up due to both over-consumption and drastically reduced snowmelt caused by global heating, and it's affecting the entire region. One wet winter does not magically undo a couple decades of drought (Lake Mead still isn't even remotely close to pre-2000 levels). Just as significantly, other major sources of water in the geographical area are also drying up (word is that the Great Salt Lake will become the Great Salt Puddle, then the Great Arsenic Flats, in less than a decade). Underground water tables are being pumped like there's no tomorrow (similar to oil), with very limited means of replenishing them. And did I mention that snowmelt over the long term and rainfall over the long term are WAY lower than historic norms? Wreckless and wasteful water use by agriculture is a major problem, to be sure, and certainly the low hanging fruit that we can attack. But to say that agriculture should be taking the brunt of it, and not addressing ALL sources of increased water consumption, is foolish. Maybe the impact won't be as high, but it's still meaningful in aggregate. Per-capita, Arizonans consume more water than most states, and we must do better as a state.[1] And of course California, Nevada and Utah need to do their part too. 1. https://mapazdashboard.arizona.edu/article/arizonas-water-use-sector And depending who you ask, Phoenix (and Las Vegas) should not exist at all! Having lived here my entire life, I'm starting to agree with that sentimet. But that's just my 2 cents. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Hey guys, Actually, our current lack of water (and the current drought were in), as part of a 550 year-long cycle. This particular cycle started somewhere between 1982 and 1986 with one of the driest years we had, sometime in the last 10 years. And yes, this heat wave that we’re suffering through is actually part of that. The same Sometime in the last 10 years. And yes, this heat wave that were suffering through is actually part of that. The same thing happened from 700 years ago which pretty well deep populated the entire desert Southwest (that would explain all those ruins all over the place that date back to that time). Also, as far as human interaction on the environment is concerned, it’s mostly local (take a look at the heat dome over Phoenix as it only exists over the valley of the sun and not much else except for maybe Tucson). Those are pretty well localized effects and, they do have an impact. As for agricultural use of land, this environment is perfect for growing some kinds of foods that will not grow in other places. Unfortunately, a lot of people don’t seem to realize that food is needed, and there are better ways to water those fields instead of using just irrigation. Yes, we do have a waterfall here, and yes, it is going to get worse. I give it another 500 years or so before we’re back into wet cycle (and yeah, all the allocation of the Colorado river was made during a period when there was substantially more rainfall than there is now). I have done a lot of research on this, so I pretty well know what it is. I’m talking about. BTW, welcome to the drought that is normal for this part of the world (California tree study confirmed this quite some time ago, and you can actually look it up). – Eric From the central offices of the Technomage guild, Environmental research department Sent from my iPhone > On Jun 21, 2024, at 6:20 AM, Keith Smith via PLUG-discuss > wrote: > > Interesting topic. I wonder how it will workout. > > I read an article last year about a couple in Tucson that are capturing rain > water and that was enough to supply their needs. I did some research and > there is a formula based on roof space and rain fall that will determine the > amount of water you can harvest. The article did not match my research. > > I'm not going to deny we have a potential for a water short fall. > > When people talk about Global Warming and/or Climate Change I always ask > about the Mini Ice Age. Seems the weather has been changing for a long time. > Long before fossil Fuels. > > Not saying something is not happening, just saying there is more to the story. > > And what about those supply chain issues? I studied Just-in-Time in 1989 or > so. We have the Just-in-Time so tightly rapped that the supply chain is very > fragile. There is hope. I've read the capitalists are figuring out how to > fix the problem. Shipping containers are being built in China so the > container does not have to be shipped back empty. > > And much to our benefit in the area of the I-10/303 there is massive building > going on. Tons of warehousing is being built in that corridor. > > So how do I deal with it for now. I have a 2 year plan and a 5 year plan > that includes Linux and PHP. I'm trying to not pay too much attention to all > this. > > Keith > > > > >> On 2024-06-20 20:11, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote: >> On 6/20/24 6:16 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? >>> It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than >>> residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted >>> to residential. So every acre converted means _less_ water use. >>> I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't >>> lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is >>> trying to take a larger portion of it. >> I disagree that it is FUD, but there is certainly a lot of blame to go >> around. >> The fact of the matter is, the Colorado River has been drying up due >> to both over-consumption and drastically reduced snowmelt caused by >> global heating, and it's affecting the entire region. One wet winter >> does not magically undo a couple decades of drought (Lake Mead still >> isn't even remotely close to pre-2000 levels). Just as significantly, >> other major sources of water in the geographical area are also drying >> up (word is that the Great Salt Lake will become the Great Salt >> Puddle, then the Great Arsenic Flats, in less than a decade). >> Underground water tables are being pumped like there's no tomorrow >> (similar to oil), with very limited means of replenishing them. And >> did I mention that snowmelt over the long term and rainfall over the >> long term are WAY lower than historic norms? >> Wreckless and wasteful water use by agriculture is a major problem, to >> be sure, and certainly the low hanging fruit that we can
VERY OT, DO NOT READ THIS! (wind power, was Re: OT Humidity, was time off) Do not read, do not follow up! ;-)
Ok, we are SO FAR off-topic that I shouldn't say anything, and I apologize for adding to the noise! However, I have one comment. For many years I was a BIG fan of wind power. Now, however, I've realized that nobody has calculated the effect of removing MEGAWATTS of power from the wind. Think about it - what is one of the major 'causes' of rainfall (especially around mountains)? Wind. Pushing the air and water up the mountain, where it cools, condenses, and rains. But we're removing MEGAWATTS of power from the wind! What effect is that extremely likely to have? Um, less rain! If I thought it would make any difference in our mad rush to fulfill the predictions of drought and global (whatever-ing), I'd spend time doing research, but I'm pretty sure 'nobody really cares'. Or whatever. Ok, sorry for adding to the noise. You may now return to your regularly scheduled flame-fest! On 6/20/24 20:11, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 6/20/24 6:16 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means /less/ water use. I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is trying to take a larger portion of it. I disagree that it is FUD, but there is certainly a lot of blame to go around. The fact of the matter is, the Colorado River has been drying up due to both over-consumption and drastically reduced snowmelt caused by global heating, and it's affecting the entire region. One wet winter does not magically undo a couple decades of drought (Lake Mead still isn't even remotely close to pre-2000 levels). Just as significantly, other major sources of water in the geographical area are also drying up (word is that the Great Salt Lake will become the Great Salt Puddle, then the Great Arsenic Flats, in less than a decade). Underground water tables are being pumped like there's no tomorrow (similar to oil), with very limited means of replenishing them. And did I mention that snowmelt over the long term and rainfall over the long term are WAY lower than historic norms? Wreckless and wasteful water use by agriculture is a major problem, to be sure, and certainly the low hanging fruit that we can attack. But to say that agriculture should be taking the brunt of it, and not addressing ALL sources of increased water consumption, is foolish. Maybe the impact won't be as high, but it's still meaningful in aggregate. Per-capita, Arizonans consume more water than most states, and we must do better as a state.[1] And of course California, Nevada and Utah need to do their part too. 1. https://mapazdashboard.arizona.edu/article/arizonas-water-use-sector And depending who you ask, Phoenix (and Las Vegas) should not exist at all! Having lived here my entire life, I'm starting to agree with that sentimet. But that's just my 2 cents. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
"Coming lack of water" is going to be handled by zero-waste. 100% recycling all waste water. Think about that for a minute... yes, all that water that is flushed down the sewer will be reclaimed and recycled into potable water. Unimaginable? Google: Toilet to tap. And yes, your cities are already considering it or doing it. Stay hydrated :) https://www.azcentral.com/story/news/local/arizona/2023/04/12/toilet-to-tap-recycling-wastewater-drinking-water-safe/70104828007/ Regards, George Toft On 6/20/2024 5:14 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 20 Jun 2024 04:05:30 -0700 I lived in Florida for ~10 years myself, in the Ft. Walton Beach/Navarre/Pensacola areas, and got my degree there at UWF. Sometimes I wish I were still there but I'm enjoying the non-humidity of Arizona for now. How do you like the 115 degree days? :-) And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? One thing I love about hot dry climates (I used to live in the San Fernando Valley just outside LA) is that you can use evaporative coolers. That can save you a bundle of money. Here in Orlando Florida where I live, if you tried that, you'd just sweat even more and you'd melt the wallpaper right off the walls :-) Keep hydrated! SteveT Steve Litt http://444domains.com --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
Interesting topic. I wonder how it will workout. I read an article last year about a couple in Tucson that are capturing rain water and that was enough to supply their needs. I did some research and there is a formula based on roof space and rain fall that will determine the amount of water you can harvest. The article did not match my research. I'm not going to deny we have a potential for a water short fall. When people talk about Global Warming and/or Climate Change I always ask about the Mini Ice Age. Seems the weather has been changing for a long time. Long before fossil Fuels. Not saying something is not happening, just saying there is more to the story. And what about those supply chain issues? I studied Just-in-Time in 1989 or so. We have the Just-in-Time so tightly rapped that the supply chain is very fragile. There is hope. I've read the capitalists are figuring out how to fix the problem. Shipping containers are being built in China so the container does not have to be shipped back empty. And much to our benefit in the area of the I-10/303 there is massive building going on. Tons of warehousing is being built in that corridor. So how do I deal with it for now. I have a 2 year plan and a 5 year plan that includes Linux and PHP. I'm trying to not pay too much attention to all this. Keith On 2024-06-20 20:11, Matthew Crews via PLUG-discuss wrote: On 6/20/24 6:16 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means _less_ water use. I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is trying to take a larger portion of it. I disagree that it is FUD, but there is certainly a lot of blame to go around. The fact of the matter is, the Colorado River has been drying up due to both over-consumption and drastically reduced snowmelt caused by global heating, and it's affecting the entire region. One wet winter does not magically undo a couple decades of drought (Lake Mead still isn't even remotely close to pre-2000 levels). Just as significantly, other major sources of water in the geographical area are also drying up (word is that the Great Salt Lake will become the Great Salt Puddle, then the Great Arsenic Flats, in less than a decade). Underground water tables are being pumped like there's no tomorrow (similar to oil), with very limited means of replenishing them. And did I mention that snowmelt over the long term and rainfall over the long term are WAY lower than historic norms? Wreckless and wasteful water use by agriculture is a major problem, to be sure, and certainly the low hanging fruit that we can attack. But to say that agriculture should be taking the brunt of it, and not addressing ALL sources of increased water consumption, is foolish. Maybe the impact won't be as high, but it's still meaningful in aggregate. Per-capita, Arizonans consume more water than most states, and we must do better as a state.[1] And of course California, Nevada and Utah need to do their part too. 1. https://mapazdashboard.arizona.edu/article/arizonas-water-use-sector And depending who you ask, Phoenix (and Las Vegas) should not exist at all! Having lived here my entire life, I'm starting to agree with that sentimet. But that's just my 2 cents. --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
On 6/20/24 6:16 AM, Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss wrote: And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means /less/ water use. I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is trying to take a larger portion of it. I disagree that it is FUD, but there is certainly a lot of blame to go around. The fact of the matter is, the Colorado River has been drying up due to both over-consumption and drastically reduced snowmelt caused by global heating, and it's affecting the entire region. One wet winter does not magically undo a couple decades of drought (Lake Mead still isn't even remotely close to pre-2000 levels). Just as significantly, other major sources of water in the geographical area are also drying up (word is that the Great Salt Lake will become the Great Salt Puddle, then the Great Arsenic Flats, in less than a decade). Underground water tables are being pumped like there's no tomorrow (similar to oil), with very limited means of replenishing them. And did I mention that snowmelt over the long term and rainfall over the long term are WAY lower than historic norms? Wreckless and wasteful water use by agriculture is a major problem, to be sure, and certainly the low hanging fruit that we can attack. But to say that agriculture should be taking the brunt of it, and not addressing ALL sources of increased water consumption, is foolish. Maybe the impact won't be as high, but it's still meaningful in aggregate. Per-capita, Arizonans consume more water than most states, and we must do better as a state.[1] And of course California, Nevada and Utah need to do their part too. 1. https://mapazdashboard.arizona.edu/article/arizonas-water-use-sector And depending who you ask, Phoenix (and Las Vegas) should not exist at all! Having lived here my entire life, I'm starting to agree with that sentimet. But that's just my 2 cents.--- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
Re: OT Humidity, was time off
> How do you like the 115 degree days? It's bearable; at least I'm not sitting in a pool of my own sweat. > And what are you guys going to do about the coming lack of water? It's all FUD. If anything, agricultural land uses more water than residential land, and agricultural land is what's getting converted to residential. So every acre converted means *less* water use. I think they're making a big deal out of it to make sure we don't lose some water rights from the Colorado river, as California is trying to take a larger portion of it. On Thu, Jun 20, 2024, at 5:14 AM, Steve Litt via PLUG-discuss wrote: > Ryan Petris via PLUG-discuss said on Thu, 20 Jun 2024 04:05:30 -0700 > > >I lived in Florida for ~10 years myself, in the Ft. Walton > >Beach/Navarre/Pensacola areas, and got my degree there at UWF. > >Sometimes I wish I were still there but I'm enjoying the non-humidity > >of Arizona for now. > > How do you like the 115 degree days? :-) And what are you guys going to > do about the coming lack of water? > > One thing I love about hot dry climates (I used to live in the San > Fernando Valley just outside LA) is that you can use evaporative > coolers. That can save you a bundle of money. Here in Orlando Florida > where I live, if you tried that, you'd just sweat even more and you'd > melt the wallpaper right off the walls :-) > > Keep hydrated! > > SteveT > > Steve Litt > > http://444domains.com > --- > PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org > To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: > https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss > --- PLUG-discuss mailing list: PLUG-discuss@lists.phxlinux.org To subscribe, unsubscribe, or to change your mail settings: https://lists.phxlinux.org/mailman/listinfo/plug-discuss
