Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
You know, I'm glad this came up because as we speak I'm taping some of the Pine Valley Cosmonauts LP. What strikes me is that the songs which fail do so because they spotlight vocalists who are weak singers. Or, maybe it's that they are trying to adopt the Wills arrangements too strictly, which were able to feature a singer as fitted for those arrangements as Tommy Duncan was. This is probably why Merle and Willie and George Strait can pull off Western Swing. It's not that their bands aren't all respectively brilliant, it's just that each of their voices is distinctively complementary. As Willie might say, they're aging with time like yesterday's wine. I hope some of these folks on the PVC do stick with the swing, maybe they'll have a great album before long. Or maybe someone should convince Dwight Yoakam to sing with the band. you are so right about the pine valley cd which i have tried to like but finally gave up on for that exact reasonmusically i like lots of and vocally some of but it just winds up a pale comparison to some really good weatern swingi am far from a purist on this but some folks just don't have the voice (or should i say phrasing) to pull off these songsoh well, i guess bob wills is still the king
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
This covers thread raised a question for me -- what's it called when an artist -- I'm thinking of Dave Alvin, specifically -- "covers" a tune that he wrote for a band that he played in, but didn't sing, and covers it in a wildly different (and better, in Alvin's case) fashion? Border Radio, Romeo's whatever, a few others. I'll try to think of some other artists who did this sort of thing. -- Terry Smith ps so when's mandy barnett's new one coming out?
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 4:39 PM -0400 4/4/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. Well thanks, I guess, for pointing out to me that I'm just respondingly ironically to the faked sensations of artistic rubbish. How ever could I have thought I sincerely liked the song on its own merits? g But I used the word "rehash" advisedly. I think it's possible and even fairly common to do a note-for-note rendition of someone else's song and *still* bring something of oneself--usually having to do with the distinctive voice that Ross mentions--to it. A rehash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a carbon copy of a song, one that doesn't add any distinctiveness of voice or anything else. A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. I certainly agree with all of that, but I don't think that's the same thing as saying "all good covers" should be "reinterpretations rather than rehashes". Unless you are saying that a note-for-note remake is a reinterpretation when you like it and a rehash when you don't like it. A note-for-note remake, I'd say, is almost always giving the song the same interpretation as the original, whether it works or not. Ross Whitwam[EMAIL PROTECTED] Molecular Pharmacology Therapeutics Program Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
This covers thread raised a question for me -- what's it called when an artist -- I'm thinking of Dave Alvin, specifically -- "covers" a tune that he wrote for a band that he played in, but didn't sing, and covers it in a wildly different (and better, in Alvin's case) fashion? Border Radio, Romeo's whatever, a few others. I'll try to think of some other artists who did this sort of thing. -- Terry Smith How about when Bob Dylan covers Buddy Holly's "Not Fade Away," but the arrangement of the song adheres pretty closely to the Dead's version? Is there a name for that? Isn't it Harmolodic Bifurcation? OR maybe I'm thinking of Caesarean Retrofication? Yeah, that's it. Lance . . .
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
How about when Bob Dylan covers Buddy Holly's "Not Fade Away," but the arrangement of the song adheres pretty closely to the Dead's version? Is there a name for that? Isn't it Harmolodic Bifurcation? OR maybe I'm thinking of Caesarean Retrofication? Yeah, that's it. Lance . . . Oh, that's called "copying"... Barry
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 4:39 PM -0400 4/4/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. Well thanks, I guess, for pointing out to me that I'm just respondingly ironically to the faked sensations of artistic rubbish. How ever could I have thought I sincerely liked the song on its own merits? g Whoa there, Dr. Ross. I don't recall mentioning anything about irony, faked sensations, or artistic rubbish. All I said was that I don't like the song or Peggy Lee's voice, and I mentioned its kitsch appeal (which I think is undeniable). I've been known to rail against ironic detachment at the least provocation, but this wasn't one of those instances, and I wasn't commenting on your reaction to the song (about which I know nothing) at all. Sheesh. --Amy
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Dr. Ross writes: I love the whole record, even the not-as-good-as-the-first-version "Fading Fast," and I'm especially impressed with the Nick Drake and Replacements covers, which are reinterpretations rather than rehashes, just like all good covers should be. Tsk tsk. So Peggy Lee's "Fever", Bob Dylan's "Broke Down Engine", and Merle's "San Antonio Rose" (to name just three rehashes that immediately came to mind) are not good covers? I'd say there are lots of way to make good covers. An artist with a strong, distinctive voice -- and I'd put all of the above in that category -- can make a note-for-note remake of a song and still make a recording I find valuable on the strength of the subtle variations that that distinctive voice brings to the song. Stepping up for Jon W. who is probably tired of making this point (except he probably would not require even subtle variations if the cover was performed with good grace and skill), Well, referencing Peggy Lee's "Fever" isn't going to win any points with me, as I don't love either the song or her toneless version of it. If this loses me major kitsch-cred points, that's fine with me. But I used the word "rehash" advisedly. I think it's possible and even fairly common to do a note-for-note rendition of someone else's song and *still* bring something of oneself--usually having to do with the distinctive voice that Ross mentions--to it. A rehash, on the other hand, is nothing more than a carbon copy of a song, one that doesn't add any distinctiveness of voice or anything else. A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. In fact, radical reinterpretations tend not to work as well for me (for the most part--though I do like some complete overhauls, including the aforementioned punk rock version of "Pink Moon" that Sebadoh did) as do subtle reinterpretations like Kelly Willis does with the songs by Nick Drake and the Replacements. The songs are still recognizable (though "Time Has Told Me" may not be immediately so, at least on casual listen), and they don't stray all that far from the originals, but they're twangified enough to fit Kelly's style; hearing her do an English-folkie-style "Time Has Told Me" or an indie-rock "They're Blind" would have been weird. Way more detail than I wanted to get into. --Amy "Ain't no use in hanging around/Emptiness swallows its own path/I watch my weakness go down easy/And I pray it won't last..." (The Damnations TX)
RE: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Amy says: A talented artist can sing a note-for-note rendition of a song they didn't write and still make it their own, by virtue of having a) a distinctive voice and b) emotional honesty, and specifically the ability to give the listener a sense that the song resonates emotionally for the singer as it did for the writer or original performer. Exactly, and what's spooky, at least to me, is that while sometimes the emotional resonance is responsible for the "note-for-note" rendition, sometimes it's the other way around - that is, by concentrating fiercely on doing just what the original did, you achieve the emotional identification; by playing it, you become, for a moment, the original performer. I read a comment very much along these lines not too long ago from some performer or other, and now I can't find it; when I do, I'm going to post it, just to show that even if I'm crazy in looking at it this way, I'm not the only nut. Jon Weisberger Kenton County, KY [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://home.fuse.net/jonweisberger/
RE: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
Any, then, Jon says the following, on covers: Exactly, and what's spooky, at least to me, is that while sometimes the emotional resonance is responsible for the "note-for-note" rendition, sometimes it's the other way around - that is, by concentrating fiercely on doing just what the original did, you achieve the emotional identification; by playing it, you become, for a moment, the original performer. I read a comment very much along these lines not too long ago from some performer or other, and now I can't find it; when I do, I'm going to post it, just to show that even if I'm crazy in looking at it this way, I'm not the only nut. You're not alone in this view at all, Jon. Don't have time for a detailed discussion, but I've never notice any pattern or rule to distinguishing "good" from "bad" covers. I don't consider a cover "secondary" to the "original," in fact. One could cite numerous covers that outdo the "originial" in various ways, or that work *even though* they're note-for-note copies, or work as completely reinterpretations. As best I can tell, there's just no rule. It's like for any kind of performance: some work, some don't I've never yet found a general rule to distinguish the succesful from the unsuccessful ones. If I had, I'd do all good covers g. -junior
Re: Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
You know, I'm glad this came up because as we speak I'm taping some of the Pine Valley Cosmonauts LP. What strikes me is that the songs which fail do so because they spotlight vocalists who are weak singers. Or, maybe it's that they are trying to adopt the Wills arrangements too strictly, which were able to feature a singer as fitted for those arrangements as Tommy Duncan was. Whatever the case, some of the vocalists on the PVC's album sure sound like they're used to singing rock 'n' roll songs, so they're unable to hide behind (or among) the band because the band is arranged around them. Their vocal "deficiencies" aren't as big a liability in most rock 'n' roll environments because they need only be tunefully enthusiastic, not sensitively collaborative. So, the PVCs band is shit-hot, but more than a few of the singers aren't up to the challenge. This is probably why Merle and Willie and George Strait can pull off Western Swing. It's not that their bands aren't all respectively brilliant, it's just that each of their voices is distinctively complementary. As Willie might say, they're aging with time like yesterday's wine. I hope some of these folks on the PVC do stick with the swing, maybe they'll have a great album before long. Or maybe someone should convince Dwight Yoakam to sing with the band. Lance, smoking T for Texas . . .
Good covers (was: Kelly Willis calling the shots)
At 12:27 AM -0500 4/3/99, Amy Haugesag wrote: I love the whole record, even the not-as-good-as-the-first-version "Fading Fast," and I'm especially impressed with the Nick Drake and Replacements covers, which are reinterpretations rather than rehashes, just like all good covers should be. Tsk tsk. So Peggy Lee's "Fever", Bob Dylan's "Broke Down Engine", and Merle's "San Antonio Rose" (to name just three rehashes that immediately came to mind) are not good covers? I'd say there are lots of way to make good covers. An artist with a strong, distinctive voice -- and I'd put all of the above in that category -- can make a note-for-note remake of a song and still make a recording I find valuable on the strength of the subtle variations that that distinctive voice brings to the song. Stepping up for Jon W. who is probably tired of making this point (except he probably would not require even subtle variations if the cover was performed with good grace and skill), Ross Whitwam[EMAIL PROTECTED] Molecular Pharmacology Therapeutics Program Memorial Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center, NYC
