Re: Apple's initial response
Hello. With that response in context, I am wondering, does Apple follow their own guide lines to make Logic pro accessible with Voice over? Nektarios. On Nov 13, 2012, at 7:36 PM, Slau Halatyn wrote: > Apple's initial response to me was as follows: > Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to > properly implement the necessary components into their applications that > allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an > update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with > VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID > directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not > work. > > Apple Accessibility > > I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested > contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that > Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not > exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain > Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with > further support of the argument. > > Slau >
Re: Apple's initial response
Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with the engineers. Let me know Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: > Apple's initial response to me was as follows: > Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to > properly implement the necessary components into their applications that > allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an > update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with > VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID > directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not > work. > > Apple Accessibility > > I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested > contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that > Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not > exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain > Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with > further support of the argument. > > Slau > <>
Re: Apple's initial response
Slau, and now? Apple and Avid are pointing fingers at each other. I haven't send a message to accessibility yet, cause I don't know how to describe the problem exactly. Is it enough to say the counters etc aren't spoken correctly under Mountain Lion while with the same version of pro Tools under Snow Leopard or Lion the items are spoken right? thanks, Ronald Op 13 nov. 2012, om 18:36 heeft Slau Halatyn het volgende geschreven: > Apple's initial response to me was as follows: > Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to > properly implement the necessary components into their applications that > allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an > update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with > VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID > directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not > work. > > Apple Accessibility > > I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested > contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that > Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not > exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain > Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with > further support of the argument. > > Slau >
Re: Apple's initial response
Hey Yuma, The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our part. I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. Scott On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to > the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within > one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with > the engineers. > > Let me know > > Cheers > > Yuma > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness" > Mob: +642102277190 > Skype: Shainobi1 > twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 > > This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you > don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. > However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open > relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please > advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all > illicit data retention. > > On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: > >> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >> properly implement the necessary components into their applications that >> allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an >> update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with >> VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID >> directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not >> work. >> >> Apple Accessibility >> >> I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested >> contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that >> Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does >> not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and >> Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to >> come back with further support of the argument. >> >> Slau >> > >
Re: Apple's initial response
No, this is a canned response. Avid is not pointing the finger at all. In fact, as I said, it was a person from Apple who said it appeared to be a bug in VoiceOver. Avid is currently unaware of this particular issue. Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Ronald van Rhijn wrote: > Slau, > and now? Apple and Avid are pointing fingers at each other. > I haven't send a message to accessibility yet, cause I don't know how to > describe the problem exactly. > Is it enough to say the counters etc aren't spoken correctly under Mountain > Lion while with the same version of pro Tools under Snow Leopard or Lion the > items are spoken right? > thanks, > Ronald > > Op 13 nov. 2012, om 18:36 heeft Slau Halatyn het > volgende geschreven: > >> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >> properly implement the necessary components into their applications that >> allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an >> update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with >> VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID >> directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not >> work. >> >> Apple Accessibility >> >> I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested >> contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that >> Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not >> exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain >> Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with >> further support of the argument. >> >> Slau >> >
Re: Apple's initial response
folks, Be prepared for a canned response from Apple. They will probably try to send you an outdated link to a page on Avid's web site that shows Pro Tools as not being compatible with Mountain Lion. Shoot back the following link: http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Download/Pro-Tools-10-3-2-Downloads which shows that Pro Tools 10.3.2 does, in fact, support Mountain Lion. Also, reiterate the fact that stuff works in snow Leopard and Lion but not in Mountain Lion and there should be no reason for that. Slau
Re: Apple's initial response
Just out of interest, are Avid willing to disclose what kind of control they use? If we knew that, then we could pinpoint the problem with Apple in a more targeted fashion possibly. Hath, Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:05, Slau Halatyn wrote: > No, this is a canned response. Avid is not pointing the finger at all. In > fact, as I said, it was a person from Apple who said it appeared to be a bug > in VoiceOver. Avid is currently unaware of this particular issue. > > Slau > > On Nov 13, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Ronald van Rhijn wrote: > >> Slau, >> and now? Apple and Avid are pointing fingers at each other. >> I haven't send a message to accessibility yet, cause I don't know how to >> describe the problem exactly. >> Is it enough to say the counters etc aren't spoken correctly under Mountain >> Lion while with the same version of pro Tools under Snow Leopard or Lion the >> items are spoken right? >> thanks, >> Ronald >> >> Op 13 nov. 2012, om 18:36 heeft Slau Halatyn het >> volgende geschreven: >> >>> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >>> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >>> properly implement the necessary components into their applications that >>> allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an >>> update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with >>> VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID >>> directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not >>> work. >>> >>> Apple Accessibility >>> >>> I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested >>> contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that >>> Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does >>> not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and >>> Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come >>> back with further support of the argument. >>> >>> Slau >
Re: Apple's initial response
Slau, that is verbadum word? for word! the response I got. I mean, they may as well written that from a script! That's identical! what they said to me. What the hell more do we say to them! This is m effing ridiculous! Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: "Slau Halatyn" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:36 PM Subject: Apple's initial response Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau
Re: Apple's initial response
Hi, I would even call up Apple support and explain the issue even go as far as to demo the issue on the phone with them so they can hear it. I think that is the best option and again reply to that responce as I did and explain that someone from Apple even said to contact the accessibility team. Nick Gawronski On Tue, November 13, 2012 2:35 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: > Slau, that is verbadum word? for word! the response I got. I mean, they > may > as well written that from a script! That's identical! what they said to > me. > What the hell more do we say to them! This is m effing ridiculous! > > Thank you kindly, > > Christopher-Mark Gilland. > Founder of CLG Productions > > Blog: > http://www.clgproductions.org > > Podcast: > http://clgproductions.podhoster.com > > E-mail: > ch...@clgproductions.com > > IMessage/Facetime: > theblindmusic...@att.net > > Windows Live Messenger: > ch...@blindperspectives.net > > Twitter: > @gilland_chris > > Facebook: > http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland > > Skype: > twinklesfriend2007 > > Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: > 704-697-2069 > > Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): > 980-272-8570 > > > - Original Message - > From: "Slau Halatyn" > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:36 PM > Subject: Apple's initial response > > > Apple's initial response to me was as follows: > Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to > properly implement the necessary components into their applications that > allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an > update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with > VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID > directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not > work. > > Apple Accessibility > > I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested > contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that > Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does > not > exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain > Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back > with > further support of the argument. > > Slau > >
Re: Apple's initial response
Hey Scott, I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: > Hey Yuma, > > The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit > window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range > you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric > text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks > etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you > currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These > things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked > the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed > anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in > any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. > > Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, > hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. > Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from > all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be > different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our > part. > > I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. > > Scott > > On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >> Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to >> the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within >> one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with >> the engineers. >> >> Let me know >> >> Cheers >> >> Yuma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Light has no value without darkness" >> Mob: +642102277190 >> Skype: Shainobi1 >> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >> >> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you >> don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. >> However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open >> relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please >> advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all >> illicit data retention. >> >> On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: >> >>> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >>> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >>> properly implement the necessary components into their applications that >>> allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an >>> update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with >>> VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID >>> directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not >>> work. >>> >>> Apple Accessibility >>> >>> I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested >>> contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that >>> Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does >>> not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and >>> Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to >>> come back with further support of the argument. >>> >>> Slau >>> >> >> <>
Re: Apple's initial response
Yadsas Nektario. Ti kanaté? xi. Den ine calá. LOL! No, they don't, apparently. Write me off list if you have any more questions, or want further detail on what by that I mean. Irini tu Théu me sas. Xrístos, AKA: Chris.
Re: Apple's initial response
I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > Hey Scott, > > I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the > accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what > part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the > axaccessibility api has been properly coded. > > > Cheers > > Yuma > > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness" > Mob: +642102277190 > Skype: Shainobi1 > twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 > > This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you > don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. > However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open > relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise > the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data > retention. > > On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: > >> Hey Yuma, >> >> The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit >> window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range >> you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric >> text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks >> etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you >> currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These >> things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked >> the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed >> anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in >> any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. >> >> Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, >> hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. >> Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from >> all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be >> different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our >> part. >> >> I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. >> >> Scott >> >> On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >>> Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to >>> the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within >>> one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with >>> the engineers. >>> >>> Let me know >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Yuma >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Light has no value without darkness" >>> Mob: +642102277190 >>> Skype: Shainobi1 >>> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >>> >>> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you >>> don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. >>> However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open >>> relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please >>> advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all >>> illicit data retention. >>> >>> On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: >>> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau >>> >>> >
Re: Apple's initial response
Don't mention that someone from Apple said to contact the accessibility team. That's irrelevant. It's here say as far as anybody is concerned because they weren't part of that specific discussion. The point is all of the stuff I mentioned before. best, Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Nick Gawronski wrote: > Hi, I would even call up Apple support and explain the issue even go as > far as to demo the issue on the phone with them so they can hear it. I > think that is the best option and again reply to that responce as I did > and explain that someone from Apple even said to contact the accessibility > team. Nick Gawronski > On Tue, November 13, 2012 2:35 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: >> Slau, that is verbadum word? for word! the response I got. I mean, they >> may >> as well written that from a script! That's identical! what they said to >> me. >> What the hell more do we say to them! This is m effing ridiculous! >> >> Thank you kindly, >> >> Christopher-Mark Gilland. >> Founder of CLG Productions >> >> Blog: >> http://www.clgproductions.org >> >> Podcast: >> http://clgproductions.podhoster.com >> >> E-mail: >> ch...@clgproductions.com >> >> IMessage/Facetime: >> theblindmusic...@att.net >> >> Windows Live Messenger: >> ch...@blindperspectives.net >> >> Twitter: >> @gilland_chris >> >> Facebook: >> http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland >> >> Skype: >> twinklesfriend2007 >> >> Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: >> 704-697-2069 >> >> Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): >> 980-272-8570 >> >> >> - Original Message - >> From: "Slau Halatyn" >> To: >> Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:36 PM >> Subject: Apple's initial response >> >> >> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >> properly implement the necessary components into their applications that >> allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an >> update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with >> VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID >> directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not >> work. >> >> Apple Accessibility >> >> I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested >> contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that >> Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does >> not >> exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain >> Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back >> with >> further support of the argument. >> >> Slau >> >> > >
Re: Apple's initial response
we don't have that information. Had that been required, I believe it would have been communicated in that manner. The bottom line is that a program made accessible should stay accessible through operating systems. When it's accessible in two operating systems and not the third and nothing is different otherwise, there's a problem within the OS not the program. If something different needs to be done specifically for Mountain Lion, Apple needs to make that clear and, by the way, I don't think that's the case anyway. Had it been, I think that would have been an issue with other applications outside of Pro Tools. Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 3:28 PM, Chris Norman wrote: > Just out of interest, are Avid willing to disclose what kind of control they > use? If we knew that, then we could pinpoint the problem with Apple in a more > targeted fashion possibly. > > Hath, > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:05, Slau Halatyn wrote: > >> No, this is a canned response. Avid is not pointing the finger at all. In >> fact, as I said, it was a person from Apple who said it appeared to be a bug >> in VoiceOver. Avid is currently unaware of this particular issue. >> >> Slau >> >> On Nov 13, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Ronald van Rhijn wrote: >> >>> Slau, >>> and now? Apple and Avid are pointing fingers at each other. >>> I haven't send a message to accessibility yet, cause I don't know how to >>> describe the problem exactly. >>> Is it enough to say the counters etc aren't spoken correctly under Mountain >>> Lion while with the same version of pro Tools under Snow Leopard or Lion >>> the items are spoken right? >>> thanks, >>> Ronald >>> >>> Op 13 nov. 2012, om 18:36 heeft Slau Halatyn het >>> volgende geschreven: >>> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau >>
Re: Apple's initial response
Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: > I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > >> Hey Scott, >> >> I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the >> accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see >> what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the >> axaccessibility api has been properly coded. >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Yuma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Light has no value without darkness" >> Mob: +642102277190 >> Skype: Shainobi1 >> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >> >> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you >> don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. >> However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open >> relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please >> advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all >> illicit data retention. >> >> On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >> >>> Hey Yuma, >>> >>> The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit >>> window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range >>> you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric >>> text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks >>> etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you >>> currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These >>> things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked >>> the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed >>> anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in >>> any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. >>> >>> Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, >>> hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. >>> Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from >>> all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be >>> different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our >>> part. >>> >>> I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. >>> >>> Scott >>> >>> On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with the engineers. Let me know Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: > Apple's initial response to me was as follows: > Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to > properly implement the necessary components into their applications that > allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an > update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with > VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID > directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not > work. > > Apple Accessibility > > I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested > contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that > Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does > not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and > Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canne
Re: Apple's initial response
I agree with you whole heartedly, but I highly doubt Avid's gonna do that. then again though, who am I to say? Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: "Chris Norman" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:28 PM Subject: Re: Apple's initial response Just out of interest, are Avid willing to disclose what kind of control they use? If we knew that, then we could pinpoint the problem with Apple in a more targeted fashion possibly. Hath, Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:05, Slau Halatyn wrote: No, this is a canned response. Avid is not pointing the finger at all. In fact, as I said, it was a person from Apple who said it appeared to be a bug in VoiceOver. Avid is currently unaware of this particular issue. Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 2:33 PM, Ronald van Rhijn wrote: Slau, and now? Apple and Avid are pointing fingers at each other. I haven't send a message to accessibility yet, cause I don't know how to describe the problem exactly. Is it enough to say the counters etc aren't spoken correctly under Mountain Lion while with the same version of pro Tools under Snow Leopard or Lion the items are spoken right? thanks, Ronald Op 13 nov. 2012, om 18:36 heeft Slau Halatyn het volgende geschreven: Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau
Re: Apple's initial response
Whoa! You know? notta! half bad? idea! Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: Yuma Antoine Decaux To: Pro Tools Accessibility Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:40 PM Subject: Re: Apple's initial response Hey Scott, I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Hey Yuma, The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our part. I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. Scott On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with the engineers. Let me know Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau <>
Re: Apple's initial response
I completely agree with Slau, and frankly, it might hurt our case by doing so. Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: "Slau Halatyn" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:45 PM Subject: Re: Apple's initial response Don't mention that someone from Apple said to contact the accessibility team. That's irrelevant. It's here say as far as anybody is concerned because they weren't part of that specific discussion. The point is all of the stuff I mentioned before. best, Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 3:38 PM, Nick Gawronski wrote: Hi, I would even call up Apple support and explain the issue even go as far as to demo the issue on the phone with them so they can hear it. I think that is the best option and again reply to that responce as I did and explain that someone from Apple even said to contact the accessibility team. Nick Gawronski On Tue, November 13, 2012 2:35 pm, Christopher-Mark Gilland wrote: Slau, that is verbadum word? for word! the response I got. I mean, they may as well written that from a script! That's identical! what they said to me. What the hell more do we say to them! This is m effing ridiculous! Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: "Slau Halatyn" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 12:36 PM Subject: Apple's initial response Apple's initial response to me was as follows: Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to properly implement the necessary components into their applications that allow VoiceOver to work correctly. Unfortunately AVID has not provided an update for ProTools that would allow their software to work correctly with VoiceOver in OS X 10.8 Mountain Lion. We recommend that you contact AVID directly to provide them feedback on the features you are finding do not work. Apple Accessibility I responded and copied a couple of people at Apple who initially suggested contacting the accessibility team. I essentially reiterated the fact that Avid did, indeed, do the necessary work and that, since the problem does not exist in Snow Leopard and Lion, it's a problem with VoiceOver and Mountain Lion. I encourage anyone who gets the same canned response to come back with further support of the argument. Slau
Re: Apple's initial response
OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and / or Avid for analysis? Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press action, and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. Cheers, Just downloading xCode on my Lion in Take care, Chris Norman On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. > > Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness" > Mob: +642102277190 > Skype: Shainobi1 > twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 > > This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you > don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. > However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open > relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise > the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data > retention. > > On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: > >> I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? >> >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >> >>> Hey Scott, >>> >>> I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the >>> accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see >>> what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the >>> axaccessibility api has been properly coded. >>> >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> Yuma >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Light has no value without darkness" >>> Mob: +642102277190 >>> Skype: Shainobi1 >>> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >>> >>> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but >>> you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended >>> recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey >>> pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, >>> please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid >>> all illicit data retention. >>> >>> On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: >>> Hey Yuma, The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our part. I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. Scott On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to > the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within > one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line with > the engineers. > > Let me know > > Cheers > > Yuma > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness" > Mob: +642102277190 > Skype: Shainobi1 > twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 > > This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but > you > don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended > recipient. > However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open > relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please > advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all > illicit data retention. > > On 14/11/2012, at 6:36 AM, Slau Halatyn wrote: > >> Apple's initial response to me was as follows: >> Thank you for your email. Apple relies on each application developer to >> properly implement the necessary components into their applications tha
Re: Apple's initial response
Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do with them. Focus on Apple. Thanks, Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: > OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be telling > me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any way to > bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and / or > Avid for analysis? > > Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the > only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press action, > and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. > > Cheers, > > Just downloading xCode on my Lion in > > Take care, > Chris Norman > > > > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > >> Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. >> >> Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Light has no value without darkness" >> Mob: +642102277190 >> Skype: Shainobi1 >> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >> >> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you >> don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. >> However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open >> relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please >> advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all >> illicit data retention. >> >> On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: >> >>> I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? >>> >>> Sent from my iPhone >>> >>> On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >>> Hey Scott, I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: > Hey Yuma, > > The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit > window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range > you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric > text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks > etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you > currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These > things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked > the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed > anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in > any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. > > Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, > hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. > Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from > all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be > different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our > part. > > I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. > > Scott > > On 11/13/12, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >> Hi, could you tell me what the issue with voice over is? I have access to >> the apple bug reporting system. If i can emulate something similar within >> one of the standard apps as well, i may be able to have a direct line >> with >> the engineers. >> >> Let me know >> >> Cheers >> >> Yuma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Light has no value without darkness" >> Mob: +642102277190 >> Skype: Shainobi1 >> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >> >> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but >> you >> don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended >> recipient. >> However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open >> relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please >> advise the sender and throw your laptop in
Re: Apple's initial response
Well, the reason I mention Avid is simple. If Apple start looking at the flood of reports about the same bug, all pertaining to Pro Tools, they'll do what they've done already, and try and palm it off on Avid. If they continue to get the bug returned to them, and the look into it, I'm sure they have actual programmers who really understand the stuff this tool is telling me, and what it's saying, is that Pro Tools isn't exactly squeaky clean. A few accessibility descriptions here and there, and so it gives them more reason to try and pass the book to Avid. I have already emailed Apple about it, and as I previously said, got the same response as Chris, and you Slau, and presumably everyone else who's emailed them, but I don't think we should hold Apple soully responsible for this problem, just because your friend, who is remaining nameless, told you it's a bug on Apple's end. I have no clue about the stuff I'm seeing, but it still can't hurt, if this information is packageable, to send it to Avid, and point out that although most likely, the edit values are an Apple bug, Pro Tools does have some accessibility flaws, which Apple will likely want sorting before it'll even consider the possibility that it's largest piece of software has a bug. Cheers, Take care, Chris Norman On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:06, Slau Halatyn wrote: > Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do > with them. Focus on Apple. > > Thanks, > > Slau > > On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: > >> OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be >> telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any >> way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and >> / or Avid for analysis? >> >> Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the >> only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press action, >> and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. >> >> Cheers, >> >> Just downloading xCode on my Lion in >> >> Take care, >> Chris Norman >> >> >> >> >> On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >> >>> Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for >>> it. >>> >>> Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> "Light has no value without darkness" >>> Mob: +642102277190 >>> Skype: Shainobi1 >>> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >>> >>> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but >>> you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended >>> recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey >>> pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, >>> please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid >>> all illicit data retention. >>> >>> On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman >>> wrote: >>> I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > Hey Scott, > > I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the > accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see > what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether > the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. > > > Cheers > > Yuma > > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness" > Mob: +642102277190 > Skype: Shainobi1 > twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 > > This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but > you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended > recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, > honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission > error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath > to avoid all illicit data retention. > > On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth > wrote: > >> Hey Yuma, >> >> The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit >> window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range >> you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric >> text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks >> etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you >> currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These >> things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked >> the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed >> anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in >> any other app, so can't imagine what's causing th
Re: Apple's initial response
Well, he did after all say Apple, or Avid. I think his intention was to also send to Apple, of course. Thank you kindly, Christopher-Mark Gilland. Founder of CLG Productions Blog: http://www.clgproductions.org Podcast: http://clgproductions.podhoster.com E-mail: ch...@clgproductions.com IMessage/Facetime: theblindmusic...@att.net Windows Live Messenger: ch...@blindperspectives.net Twitter: @gilland_chris Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/christopher.gilland Skype: twinklesfriend2007 Send me a fax from any standard fax machine: 704-697-2069 Google Voice: (Please use sparingly): 980-272-8570 - Original Message - From: Slau Halatyn To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 5:06 PM Subject: Re: Apple's initial response Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do with them. Focus on Apple. Thanks, Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and / or Avid for analysis? Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press action, and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. Cheers, Just downloading xCode on my Lion in Take care, Chris Norman On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Hey Scott, I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Hey Yuma, The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell which edit tool you currently have selected with VO, or which edit mode you're in. These things all worked a treat in Snow Leopard and Lion, but have kicked the bucket in ML for some reason even though Avid haven't changed anything at their end. So far, I haven't seen the same behaviour in any other app, so can't imagine what's causing the issue. Nektarios, no, they definitely don't. However, I've lost many many, hours of my life and a big chunk of sanity arguing that point. Currently I have nothing to show for it (other than a sore head from all that repetition and cyber wall banging). Things should be different, but they're not. That's not down to a lack of effort on our part. I'll reply to the email anyway, keep calm and carry on as the saying goes. Scott
Re: Apple's initial response
Chris, Please, just trust me on this. Avid does not have anything to do with the issue. We need to focus these particular issues toward Apple. Thanks, Slau. On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:15 PM, Chris Norman wrote: > Well, the reason I mention Avid is simple. If Apple start looking at the > flood of reports about the same bug, all pertaining to Pro Tools, they'll do > what they've done already, and try and palm it off on Avid. If they continue > to get the bug returned to them, and the look into it, I'm sure they have > actual programmers who really understand the stuff this tool is telling me, > and what it's saying, is that Pro Tools isn't exactly squeaky clean. A few > accessibility descriptions here and there, and so it gives them more reason > to try and pass the book to Avid. > > I have already emailed Apple about it, and as I previously said, got the same > response as Chris, and you Slau, and presumably everyone else who's emailed > them, but I don't think we should hold Apple soully responsible for this > problem, just because your friend, who is remaining nameless, told you it's a > bug on Apple's end. I have no clue about the stuff I'm seeing, but it still > can't hurt, if this information is packageable, to send it to Avid, and point > out that although most likely, the edit values are an Apple bug, Pro Tools > does have some accessibility flaws, which Apple will likely want sorting > before it'll even consider the possibility that it's largest piece of > software has a bug. > > Cheers, > > Take care, > Chris Norman > > > > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:06, Slau Halatyn wrote: > >> Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do >> with them. Focus on Apple. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Slau >> >> On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: >> >>> OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be >>> telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any >>> way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and >>> / or Avid for analysis? >>> >>> Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the >>> only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press >>> action, and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> Just downloading xCode on my Lion in >>> >>> Take care, >>> Chris Norman >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: >>> Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: > I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? > > Sent from my iPhone > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > >> Hey Scott, >> >> I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the >> accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see >> what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether >> the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. >> >> >> Cheers >> >> Yuma >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> "Light has no value without darkness" >> Mob: +642102277190 >> Skype: Shainobi1 >> twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 >> >> This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but >> you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended >> recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, >> honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission >> error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath >> to avoid all illicit data retention. >> >> On 14/11/2012, at 8:41 AM, Scott Chesworth >> wrote: >> >>> Hey Yuma, >>> >>> The issue we're trying to draw their attention to is that in the edit >>> window of Pro Tools, counter values (that speak start time, the range >>> you have selected etc) have suddenly started just saying "numeric >>> text" instead of speaking dynamic information like "beat 3, 480 ticks >>> etc". It's also not possible anymore to tell whic
RE: Apple's initial response
Well, as a programmer I think you might be right. As an Apple developer, if they looked at my code and found accessibility issues and that is what I was reporting then they would be within their right to ask that either I fix the issues or show why I believe they aren't causing the problem. This really can be kindly passed along to all parties and ask that they JOINTLY look at the issue and see what can be done. Please be careful before categorically stating that one or the other party has no responsibility. If they are responsible engineers they shouldn't flatly state they aren't at fault and at least be willing to entertain the idea of a joint look. Has the inspector been used by Avid? If so, I'd hope they are aware of the issues generated by the inspector and what they might mean and there potential side effects. Best, J. R. P. S. I'm just glad I kept my Lion partition around just to use with, yes we will say it quietly, Pro Tools. It is the only thing still over there that requires that partition. I have to do a recording for a concert in a few weeks and while PT might be overkill it is still pretty good. From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Chris Norman Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:16 PM To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: Apple's initial response Well, the reason I mention Avid is simple. If Apple start looking at the flood of reports about the same bug, all pertaining to Pro Tools, they'll do what they've done already, and try and palm it off on Avid. If they continue to get the bug returned to them, and the look into it, I'm sure they have actual programmers who really understand the stuff this tool is telling me, and what it's saying, is that Pro Tools isn't exactly squeaky clean. A few accessibility descriptions here and there, and so it gives them more reason to try and pass the book to Avid. I have already emailed Apple about it, and as I previously said, got the same response as Chris, and you Slau, and presumably everyone else who's emailed them, but I don't think we should hold Apple soully responsible for this problem, just because your friend, who is remaining nameless, told you it's a bug on Apple's end. I have no clue about the stuff I'm seeing, but it still can't hurt, if this information is packageable, to send it to Avid, and point out that although most likely, the edit values are an Apple bug, Pro Tools does have some accessibility flaws, which Apple will likely want sorting before it'll even consider the possibility that it's largest piece of software has a bug. Cheers, Take care, Chris Norman On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:06, Slau Halatyn wrote: Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do with them. Focus on Apple. Thanks, Slau On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and / or Avid for analysis? Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press action, and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. Cheers, Just downloading xCode on my Lion in Take care, Chris Norman On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for it. Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210 of a certain book of laws but you don't have to worry about privacy issues if you are the intended recipient. However, if any freakish circumstance such as ip sniffing, honey pot open relay servers or an honest mistake caused a transmission error, please advise the sender and throw your laptop into a bubble bath to avoid all illicit data retention. On 14/11/2012, at 9:44 AM, Chris Norman wrote: I have Xcode on my laptop. How would I do that? Sent from my iPhone On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:40, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: Hey Scott, I think you guys should try to pinpoint the issue ui elements with the accessibility inspector that's bundled with x-code. At least you can see what part of the interface has problems, and it even tells you whether the axaccessibility api has been properly coded. Cheers Yuma "Light has no value without darkness" Mob: +642102277190 Skype: Shainobi1 twitter: http://www.twitter.com/triple7 This message is protected by article 4-210
Re: Apple's initial response
I'm not sure I like blindly following advice, maybe a little explanation as to why you're so certain it's Apple's fault wouldn't go amiss Slau, I'm certainly interested. But, on this occasion, I will take your word for it, as I don't really understand the complexities of what Avid did or didn't do reguarding Pro Tools accessibility. Cheers, On 14/11/2012, J. R. Westmoreland wrote: > Well, as a programmer I think you might be right. > > As an Apple developer, if they looked at my code and found accessibility > issues and that is what I was reporting then they would be within their > right to ask that either I fix the issues or show why I believe they aren't > causing the problem. > > This really can be kindly passed along to all parties and ask that they > JOINTLY look at the issue and see what can be done. > > Please be careful before categorically stating that one or the other party > has no responsibility. If they are responsible engineers they shouldn't > flatly state they aren't at fault and at least be willing to entertain the > idea of a joint look. > > > > Has the inspector been used by Avid? If so, I'd hope they are aware of the > issues generated by the inspector and what they might mean and there > potential side effects. > > > > Best, > > J. R. > > > > P. S. I'm just glad I kept my Lion partition around just to use with, yes > we > will say it quietly, Pro Tools. It is the only thing still over there that > requires that partition. I have to do a recording for a concert in a few > weeks and while PT might be overkill it is still pretty good. > > > > > > > > From: ptaccess@googlegroups.com [mailto:ptaccess@googlegroups.com] On > Behalf > Of Chris Norman > Sent: Tuesday, November 13, 2012 3:16 PM > To: ptaccess@googlegroups.com > Subject: Re: Apple's initial response > > > > Well, the reason I mention Avid is simple. If Apple start looking at the > flood of reports about the same bug, all pertaining to Pro Tools, they'll > do > what they've done already, and try and palm it off on Avid. If they > continue > to get the bug returned to them, and the look into it, I'm sure they have > actual programmers who really understand the stuff this tool is telling me, > and what it's saying, is that Pro Tools isn't exactly squeaky clean. A few > accessibility descriptions here and there, and so it gives them more reason > to try and pass the book to Avid. > > > > I have already emailed Apple about it, and as I previously said, got the > same response as Chris, and you Slau, and presumably everyone else who's > emailed them, but I don't think we should hold Apple soully responsible for > this problem, just because your friend, who is remaining nameless, told you > it's a bug on Apple's end. I have no clue about the stuff I'm seeing, but > it > still can't hurt, if this information is packageable, to send it to Avid, > and point out that although most likely, the edit values are an Apple bug, > Pro Tools does have some accessibility flaws, which Apple will likely want > sorting before it'll even consider the possibility that it's largest piece > of software has a bug. > > > > Cheers, > > > Take care, > > Chris Norman > > > > > > > > > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 22:06, Slau Halatyn wrote: > > > > > > Please, forget about Avid. As I said several times, this has nothing to do > with them. Focus on Apple. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Slau > > > > On Nov 13, 2012, at 5:03 PM, Chris Norman wrote: > > > > > > OK, I found it, and I can happily examine the control. It seems to be > telling me it's a button, but then text area is mentioned too. Is there any > way to bundle up all the information I found, and send it off to Apple, and > / or Avid for analysis? > > > > Funnily enough, when I ran a full accessibility analysis of Pro Tools, the > only things that kicked off errors were the pan knobs having a press > action, > and about 140 errors from what looked like Apple's own inputs menu. > > > > Cheers, > > > > Just downloading xCode on my Lion in > > > Take care, > > Chris Norman > > > > > > > > > > On 13 Nov 2012, at 20:54, Yuma Antoine Decaux wrote: > > > > > > Man these people changed the whole structure again, so i have to look for > it. > > > > Sometimes this company frustrates the hell out of me. > > > > > > > > > > > "Light has no value without darkness&quo
Re: Apple's initial response
Hello Slau, Now I found the time to visit the site, you mentioned. I found something confusing: If I click the link mentioned below and search for a heading "for Pro Tools 10 and Mountain Lion" or so and read along, I can click the following link for more information: http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/compatibility/Avid-Software-and-Mac-OS-X-10-8 there is an article dated from the 27th of september. On the other hand, Apple accessibility sent me the following mail: "Thank you for your email. According to Avids minimum system requirements located here http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Compatibility/en419171 Pro Tools 10 System Requirements Last Updated : October 18, 2012 10.8 Mountain Lion is currently not qualified for use with Pro Tools 10. Again we would urge you to provide feedback to Avid regarding this and asking them to update their software for 10.8 Mountain Lion accessibility compatibility. Apple Accessibility" I also didn't find any informations regarding accessibility. I really don't know, what to do next. Thanks Stefan Am 13.11.2012 um 21:09 schrieb Slau Halatyn: > folks, > > Be prepared for a canned response from Apple. They will probably try to send > you an outdated link to a page on Avid's web site that shows Pro Tools as not > being compatible with Mountain Lion. Shoot back the following link: > http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Download/Pro-Tools-10-3-2-Downloads > which shows that Pro Tools 10.3.2 does, in fact, support Mountain Lion. Also, > reiterate the fact that stuff works in snow Leopard and Lion but not in > Mountain Lion and there should be no reason for that. > > Slau >
Re: Apple's initial response
The problem is that there are a bunch of out-of-date pages that people mistakenly view. The link I sent shows 10.8 as being supported. Just come back with the link I supplied. best, Slau On Nov 14, 2012, at 8:08 AM, Stefan Albertshauser wrote: > Hello Slau, > > Now I found the time to visit the site, you mentioned. I found something > confusing: > If I click the link mentioned below and search for a heading "for Pro Tools > 10 and Mountain Lion" or so and read along, I can click the following link > for more information: > http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/compatibility/Avid-Software-and-Mac-OS-X-10-8 > there is an article dated from the 27th of september. On the other hand, > Apple accessibility sent me the following mail: > > "Thank you for your email. According to Avids minimum system requirements > located here > http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Compatibility/en419171 > Pro Tools 10 System Requirements > Last Updated : October 18, 2012 > 10.8 Mountain Lion is currently not qualified for use with Pro Tools 10. > Again we would urge you to provide feedback to Avid regarding this and asking > them > to update their software for 10.8 Mountain Lion accessibility compatibility. > > Apple Accessibility" > I also didn't find any informations regarding accessibility. > > I really don't know, what to do next. > > Thanks > > Stefan > Am 13.11.2012 um 21:09 schrieb Slau Halatyn: > >> folks, >> >> Be prepared for a canned response from Apple. They will probably try to send >> you an outdated link to a page on Avid's web site that shows Pro Tools as >> not being compatible with Mountain Lion. Shoot back the following link: >> http://avid.force.com/pkb/articles/en_US/Download/Pro-Tools-10-3-2-Downloads >> which shows that Pro Tools 10.3.2 does, in fact, support Mountain Lion. >> Also, reiterate the fact that stuff works in snow Leopard and Lion but not >> in Mountain Lion and there should be no reason for that. >> >> Slau >> >
