Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Armin Rigo]

Hi Eric,

Thanks for this list that summarizes the situation!  It's information
that we should put or link to from somewhere (the FAQ?).

Maybe it should be put in the compatibility wiki, but that wiki looks
really, really outdated now, to the point that fijal suggested that we
might as well close it down.  The experiment of crowd-sourcing this
wiki has failed.

Nowadays you can, more and more often, go to the other project's
website or PyPI page and see a mention about the PyPy compatibility
status there.  But it doesn't help much when gathering a list of all
GUI toolkits available (say).  So I would say that we should clean up
from our wiki all projects with "not working" or "unknown" status (go
check yourself what that project's PyPI page says), and then update it
to contain at least Eric's list in the "GUI" section.  Does anyone
feel like doing that?  If not, we will close down the wiki and add the
list to the FAQ with a date.


A bientôt,

Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Eric Driggers]

For the compatibility wiki, if nothing major changes this week I feel
fine doing a large pass through it to try and update it. So long as
you don't mind me in the meanwhile on IRC asking silly questions about
some of them. I long ago found it to be a useful resource, and it
still places high on search results making it in my opinion something
worth trying to salvage it a bit.


On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 12:27 AM, Armin Rigo  wrote:
> Hi Eric,
>
> Thanks for this list that summarizes the situation!  It's information
> that we should put or link to from somewhere (the FAQ?).
>
> Maybe it should be put in the compatibility wiki, but that wiki looks
> really, really outdated now, to the point that fijal suggested that we
> might as well close it down.  The experiment of crowd-sourcing this
> wiki has failed.
>
> Nowadays you can, more and more often, go to the other project's
> website or PyPI page and see a mention about the PyPy compatibility
> status there.  But it doesn't help much when gathering a list of all
> GUI toolkits available (say).  So I would say that we should clean up
> from our wiki all projects with "not working" or "unknown" status (go
> check yourself what that project's PyPI page says), and then update it
> to contain at least Eric's list in the "GUI" section.  Does anyone
> feel like doing that?  If not, we will close down the wiki and add the
> list to the FAQ with a date.
>
>
> A bientôt,
>
> Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

There is  also pygame-cffi, which is I guess slightly higher up than
sdl (but not something *I* would personally use for a UI either) -
https://github.com/CTPUG/pygame_cffi

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 7:32 PM, Eric Driggers  wrote:
> I have a preference against web-based UIs for things that are meant to
> exist/run just on my one machine. Especially since some of these are
> shorter-lived but "heavy" scripts (working with them for only a few
> minutes).
>
> So the short update that I can see is:
>
> * There is/was work with WxPython as a GSOC project, but that has been
> left to mostly stagnate. ( https://bitbucket.org/waedt/wxpython_cffi )
> I was unable to reproduce any of the demos/tests easily, probably a
> bit too much time has passed for someone like me to be able to pick it
> up and carry on. Would need an amount of love first from someone
> knowledgeable to bring it forward and be develop-able again.
> * https://github.com/rguillebert/pymetabiosis (aka: use CPython for a
> GUI toolkit via embedding the interp into PyPy), although quite the
> nice workaround I feel that if you are going to have to fall back to
> CPython (and thus install all the modules required there) I might as
> well stay with CPython for these scripts
> * cffi: aka "the hard way", write hooks/wrappers into toolkit of choice 
> myself.
> * Some form of web-based GUI (eg flask+bootstrap, RapydScript, and
> more): Although I like web-interfaces, they are not appropriate for
> every use case. Thick, heavy workloads bound to one computer do not
> integrate or scale easily with python-based webUI stuff from my
> experience.
> * https://github.com/lazka/pgi works wonderfully and will probably be
> what I use here on out.
> * https://bitbucket.org/dholth/pysdl2-cffi Bit more work to get
> started, but nice if you need some of the bells and whistles SDL2
> brings (joystick inputs, easy-ish GL use)
>
> Thanks Ryan for pointing me to PGI, few examples I have run worked
> wonderfully so far for all the widgets I need.
>
> On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 1:32 AM, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
>> With this stack , It works on every platform that pypy works. Also possible
>> for mobile UI
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Phyo Arkar 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Use Electron + RapydScript on client side , along with bootstrap or
>>> Material Design Light . https://github.com/atsepkov/RapydScript
>>>
>>> And use PyPy on backend.
>>> you got everything done in python.
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski 
>>> wrote:

 Hi Eric

 There has been some success with WxPython, but I don't think anyone
 got pyqt running on PyPy. Cffi is one option with pymetabiosis being
 the other one worth considering. Also I have a bit no clue how much
 CPython C extensions your bindings/qt uses, but we have an emulation
 layer for those that should work as long as the extension plays nicely
 (will be dead slow though)

 Cheers,
 fijal

 On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Eric Driggers 
 wrote:
 > Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
 > and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
 > with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
 > needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
 > PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
 > toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
 >
 > The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
 > around early 2013...
 >
 > https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
 >
 > Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
 > trying to build them with pypy.
 > ___
 > pypy-dev mailing list
 > pypy-dev@python.org
 > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
 ___
 pypy-dev mailing list
 pypy-dev@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>>
>>>
>>
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Sun, 20 Sep 2015 18:37:05 +0200, Armin Rigo writes:
>Hi Maciej,
>
>On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski  wrote:
>> I don't think this is true Laura, it shows up a lot in google searches
>
>I don't think you can argue against Laura's "most people I meet simply
>don't know that it is there", which is in all likelihood a truth about
>the people that Laura meets.  However what you said is also true: it
>does show up in various searches like "pypy gui".  I think we can only
>conclude that there are many people that don't have the idea of using
>google to do the same searches as we do.

And what they do is mail me and ask ...  This biases my sample, of
course.

Laura

>
>
>A bientôt,
>
>Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Carl Friedrich Bolz]

There's a simple solution anyway, which is to link from the FAQ to the wiki. 

Carl Friedrich

On September 20, 2015 6:37:05 PM GMT+02:00, Armin Rigo  wrote:
>Hi Maciej,
>
>On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski 
>wrote:
>> I don't think this is true Laura, it shows up a lot in google
>searches
>
>I don't think you can argue against Laura's "most people I meet simply
>don't know that it is there", which is in all likelihood a truth about
>the people that Laura meets.  However what you said is also true: it
>does show up in various searches like "pypy gui".  I think we can only
>conclude that there are many people that don't have the idea of using
>google to do the same searches as we do.
>
>
>A bientôt,
>
>Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Laura Creighton]

In a message of Sun, 20 Sep 2015 09:27:03 +0200, Armin Rigo writes:
>Nowadays you can, more and more often, go to the other project's
>website or PyPI page and see a mention about the PyPy compatibility
>status there.  But it doesn't help much when gathering a list of all
>GUI toolkits available (say).  So I would say that we should clean up
>from our wiki all projects with "not working" or "unknown" status (go
>check yourself what that project's PyPI page says), and then update it
>to contain at least Eric's list in the "GUI" section.  Does anyone
>feel like doing that?  If not, we will close down the wiki and add the
>list to the FAQ with a date.
>
>
>A bientôt,
>
>Armin.

I think the FAQ is better, unless we find a new way to really, really
advertise the wikis existence.  Because most people I meet simply don't
know that it is there.

Laura
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Armin Rigo]

Hi Maciej,

On Sun, Sep 20, 2015 at 6:08 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski  wrote:
> I don't think this is true Laura, it shows up a lot in google searches

I don't think you can argue against Laura's "most people I meet simply
don't know that it is there", which is in all likelihood a truth about
the people that Laura meets.  However what you said is also true: it
does show up in various searches like "pypy gui".  I think we can only
conclude that there are many people that don't have the idea of using
google to do the same searches as we do.


A bientôt,

Armin.
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Bengt Richter]

On 09/20/2015 09:27 AM Armin Rigo wrote:

Hi Eric,

Thanks for this list that summarizes the situation!  It's information
that we should put or link to from somewhere (the FAQ?).

Maybe it should be put in the compatibility wiki, but that wiki looks
really, really outdated now, to the point that fijal suggested that we
might as well close it down.  The experiment of crowd-sourcing this
wiki has failed.

Nowadays you can, more and more often, go to the other project's
website or PyPI page and see a mention about the PyPy compatibility
status there.  But it doesn't help much when gathering a list of all
GUI toolkits available (say).  So I would say that we should clean up
from our wiki all projects with "not working" or "unknown" status (go
check yourself what that project's PyPI page says), and then update it
to contain at least Eric's list in the "GUI" section.  Does anyone
feel like doing that?  If not, we will close down the wiki and add the
list to the FAQ with a date.


A bientôt,

Armin.
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1) If you ask me, the most important place to have up to date
top level info presenting pypy as you'd like it presented,
with references to further info is:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PyPy

2) The other thing I'd like to see is less dead links.

Maybe someone could see if pypy can run
https://pypi.python.org/pypi/LinkChecker
and set up a cron job to pester the page maintainers? ;-)
(disclaimer: have not looked at LinkChecker, but seems appropriate)

(might have to tweak it to detect dead wiki links though, since they
produce an invitation to create a new page, not a 404 -- but you'd
think wiki software would come with a tool for this ?)

3) IMO most wiki searchers will just be looking for info, and
will not be able or not have the time to contribute, but if they
could run a script that generated useful info about the compatibility
of pypy to their platform/software context in the form of a  report
that could be pasted as the body of an email and sent for automatic processing
(modulo spam control ;-/), and which contained an an html section to extend a
compatibility table, then maybe crowd sourcing would work a little better?

The qubes-os.org project does this to generate a table of hardware compatibility
to help people identify CPUs and chipsets that can run their os with full or
partial success. Their hardware compatibility page is table is
https://www.qubes-os.org/hcl/
they explain how to contribute new data here:
https://www.qubes-os.org/doc/HCL/
Maybe something analogous could be done for pypy compatibility?

4) BTW, they seem to be using cpython2.7 a lot, and I'm sure speedup would be 
good ;-)
It's an interesting project. Security by compartmentalization, using xen and 
fedora, with
others coming.

Just thought I'd throw something into the idea pot ;-)

Regards,
Bengt Richter
(lurking mostly, off doing other things ;-)









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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Phyo Arkar]

With this stack , It works on every platform that pypy works. Also possible
for mobile UI

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Phyo Arkar 
wrote:

> Use Electron + RapydScript on client side , along with bootstrap or
> Material Design Light . https://github.com/atsepkov/RapydScript
>
> And use PyPy on backend.
> you got everything done in python.
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Eric
>>
>> There has been some success with WxPython, but I don't think anyone
>> got pyqt running on PyPy. Cffi is one option with pymetabiosis being
>> the other one worth considering. Also I have a bit no clue how much
>> CPython C extensions your bindings/qt uses, but we have an emulation
>> layer for those that should work as long as the extension plays nicely
>> (will be dead slow though)
>>
>> Cheers,
>> fijal
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Eric Driggers 
>> wrote:
>> > Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
>> > and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
>> > with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
>> > needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
>> > PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
>> > toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
>> >
>> > The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
>> > around early 2013...
>> >
>> > https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
>> >
>> > Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
>> > trying to build them with pypy.
>> > ___
>> > pypy-dev mailing list
>> > pypy-dev@python.org
>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>> ___
>> pypy-dev mailing list
>> pypy-dev@python.org
>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>
>
>
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Eric Driggers]

I have a preference against web-based UIs for things that are meant to
exist/run just on my one machine. Especially since some of these are
shorter-lived but "heavy" scripts (working with them for only a few
minutes).

So the short update that I can see is:

* There is/was work with WxPython as a GSOC project, but that has been
left to mostly stagnate. ( https://bitbucket.org/waedt/wxpython_cffi )
I was unable to reproduce any of the demos/tests easily, probably a
bit too much time has passed for someone like me to be able to pick it
up and carry on. Would need an amount of love first from someone
knowledgeable to bring it forward and be develop-able again.
* https://github.com/rguillebert/pymetabiosis (aka: use CPython for a
GUI toolkit via embedding the interp into PyPy), although quite the
nice workaround I feel that if you are going to have to fall back to
CPython (and thus install all the modules required there) I might as
well stay with CPython for these scripts
* cffi: aka "the hard way", write hooks/wrappers into toolkit of choice myself.
* Some form of web-based GUI (eg flask+bootstrap, RapydScript, and
more): Although I like web-interfaces, they are not appropriate for
every use case. Thick, heavy workloads bound to one computer do not
integrate or scale easily with python-based webUI stuff from my
experience.
* https://github.com/lazka/pgi works wonderfully and will probably be
what I use here on out.
* https://bitbucket.org/dholth/pysdl2-cffi Bit more work to get
started, but nice if you need some of the bells and whistles SDL2
brings (joystick inputs, easy-ish GL use)

Thanks Ryan for pointing me to PGI, few examples I have run worked
wonderfully so far for all the widgets I need.

On Sat, Sep 19, 2015 at 1:32 AM, Phyo Arkar  wrote:
> With this stack , It works on every platform that pypy works. Also possible
> for mobile UI
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 5:40 PM, Phyo Arkar 
> wrote:
>>
>> Use Electron + RapydScript on client side , along with bootstrap or
>> Material Design Light . https://github.com/atsepkov/RapydScript
>>
>> And use PyPy on backend.
>> you got everything done in python.
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski 
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Eric
>>>
>>> There has been some success with WxPython, but I don't think anyone
>>> got pyqt running on PyPy. Cffi is one option with pymetabiosis being
>>> the other one worth considering. Also I have a bit no clue how much
>>> CPython C extensions your bindings/qt uses, but we have an emulation
>>> layer for those that should work as long as the extension plays nicely
>>> (will be dead slow though)
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> fijal
>>>
>>> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Eric Driggers 
>>> wrote:
>>> > Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
>>> > and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
>>> > with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
>>> > needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
>>> > PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
>>> > toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
>>> >
>>> > The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
>>> > around early 2013...
>>> >
>>> > https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
>>> >
>>> > Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
>>> > trying to build them with pypy.
>>> > ___
>>> > pypy-dev mailing list
>>> > pypy-dev@python.org
>>> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>> ___
>>> pypy-dev mailing list
>>> pypy-dev@python.org
>>> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
>>
>>
>
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Maciej Fijalkowski]

Hi Eric

There has been some success with WxPython, but I don't think anyone
got pyqt running on PyPy. Cffi is one option with pymetabiosis being
the other one worth considering. Also I have a bit no clue how much
CPython C extensions your bindings/qt uses, but we have an emulation
layer for those that should work as long as the extension plays nicely
(will be dead slow though)

Cheers,
fijal

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Eric Driggers  wrote:
> Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
> and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
> with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
> needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
> PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
> toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
>
> The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
> around early 2013...
>
> https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
>
> Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
> trying to build them with pypy.
> ___
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Phyo Arkar]

Use Electron + RapydScript on client side , along with bootstrap or
Material Design Light . https://github.com/atsepkov/RapydScript

And use PyPy on backend.
you got everything done in python.

On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:57 PM, Maciej Fijalkowski 
wrote:

> Hi Eric
>
> There has been some success with WxPython, but I don't think anyone
> got pyqt running on PyPy. Cffi is one option with pymetabiosis being
> the other one worth considering. Also I have a bit no clue how much
> CPython C extensions your bindings/qt uses, but we have an emulation
> layer for those that should work as long as the extension plays nicely
> (will be dead slow though)
>
> Cheers,
> fijal
>
> On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 7:53 AM, Eric Driggers 
> wrote:
> > Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
> > and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
> > with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
> > needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
> > PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
> > toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
> >
> > The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
> > around early 2013...
> >
> > https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
> >
> > Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
> > trying to build them with pypy.
> > ___
> > pypy-dev mailing list
> > pypy-dev@python.org
> > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/pypy-dev
> ___
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> pypy-dev@python.org
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>
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Re: [pypy-dev] State of GUI toolkits with PyPy?

[Ryan Gonzalez]

I'd advise you to try PGI (https://github.com/lazka/pgi). It's a set of 
PyPy-compatible Gtk+ 3 bindings that's mostly compatible with PyGObject. 
They're not complete, but I've used them before, and they work quite well.

On September 18, 2015 12:53:18 AM CDT, Eric Driggers  
wrote:
>Looking at rewriting a number of my older python2 scripts to python3
>and was hoping in the mean time to also make all of them play nice
>with PyPy where possible. However a number of them use pyqt when I
>needed a GUI. From what I can find QT still does not play nice with
>PyPy yet, however are there any others? Has there been movement on GUI
>toolkits/libraries with CFFI/CTypes/cpyext support via pypy?
>
>The compatibility wiki has not really had those edited since sometime
>around early 2013...
>
>https://bitbucket.org/pypy/compatibility/wiki/Home
>
>Wondering is all before I try and see myself and spend a few days
>trying to build them with pypy.
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