Re: Calling J from Python
Den lördagen den 9:e mars 2013 kl. 19:34:09 UTC skrev Mark Lawrence: On 09/03/2013 18:49, gos...@gmail.com wrote: Den måndagen den 5:e februari 2007 kl. 14:48:49 UTC skrev Gosi: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e84b75667f5f64e http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Scripts/qjide Got a right slagging six years ago when first posted, what's changed to make it worth evaluating? -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence A lot has changed these last six years. By the way Python 2.5 and Python 3.3 will not work with the example. Python 2.7 does not work in Vista unchanged (neither does Python 3.3) but after change will run the demo and some examples. J is now open source and has more platforms and guis. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Den måndagen den 5:e februari 2007 kl. 14:48:49 UTC skrev Gosi: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e84b75667f5f64e http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Scripts/qjide -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On 09/03/2013 18:49, gos...@gmail.com wrote: Den måndagen den 5:e februari 2007 kl. 14:48:49 UTC skrev Gosi: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e84b75667f5f64e http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Scripts/qjide Got a right slagging six years ago when first posted, what's changed to make it worth evaluating? -- Cheers. Mark Lawrence -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck wrote:
how would you code a program that gives the following
output ('skewed' sierpinski-triangle) in python?
*
**
* *
* *
** **
* * * *
* *
** **
* * * *
* * * *
** ** ** **
* * * * * * * *
###
def print_sierpinski(order):
size = 4 * 2 ** order
buffer = [size * [ ] for i in range(size)]
put_sierpinski(buffer, size, 0, 0)
for line in buffer:
print .join(line)
def put_sierpinski(buffer, size, x, y):
if size == 4:
put_triangle(buffer, size, x, y)
else:
size2 = size / 2
put_sierpinski(buffer, size2, x, y)
put_sierpinski(buffer, size2, x, y + size2)
put_sierpinski(buffer, size2, x + size2, y + size2)
def put_triangle(buffer, size, x, y):
for i in range(3):
buffer[y + i][x] = buffer[y + i][x + i] = *
for i in range(4):
buffer[y + 3][x + i] = *
print_sierpinski(2)
###
By making the recursion explicit, I think this brings out the
self-similarity better than any of the other solutions posted,
which are very clever but not what I would call lucid.
--
Greg
--
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Re: Calling J from Python
George Sakkis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On Feb 9, 9:20 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
This is a bit simpler, but probably there are simpler solutions using
modular arithmetic:
l = [1]
for _ in range(15):
print ''.join( *[x] for x in l)
l = [1] + [l[i+1]^l[i] for i in range(len(l)-1)] + [1]
Bye,
bearophile
Here's another one, adapted from the example (in Java) in Wikipedia's
entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_triangle):
N=15
for x in xrange(N,0,-1):
print ''.join('* '[xy!=0] for y in xrange(N+1-x))
This is my solution after a few minutes thought.
It uses a different algorithm for generating the triangle. If python
could output binary numbers it would be more elegant...
n = 1
for i in range(16):
... print (%X % n).replace('0', ' ').replace('1', '*')
... n = n ^ (n 4)
...
*
**
* *
* *
** **
* * * *
* *
** **
* * * *
* * * *
** ** ** **
* * * * * * * *
--
Nick Craig-Wood [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.craig-wood.com/nick
--
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Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 6, 12:21 am, greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: ... Yes, but with Python you wouldn't have to spend a couple of weeks sitting and thinking before starting to type that line... This is a good point often overlooked. You often get these threads on c.l.python about How can I do this in one line, usually with some example of how it is done in only 13 characters in Perl. Yes you may spend less time typing - but unless you are a true expert in (J, Perl, other terse language) the time you spend actually working out how to type it, and in debugging it far outweighs the time you'd spend on all of that typing in a clean but more verbose language such as Python. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
[restoring context]
Ant [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
On Feb 6, 12:21 am, greg [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Alexander Schmolck wrote:
For example I once wrote this (slow) code to display
part of a mandelbrot fractal:
load'viewmat'
viewmat+/2:|((j.~/~(%~i:)99)+@:*:)^:(i.32)0
It'll likely require you more typing in python,
Yes, but with Python you wouldn't have to spend a
couple of weeks sitting and thinking before starting
to type that line...
(it's actually reasonably straightforward, if someone really cares I might
post a translation)
This is a good point often overlooked.
There is of course some truth in Greg's statement -- J code will likely have a
higher thought/character ratio (even after adjusting for differences in
average token-length) -- but I don't think that is in itself terribly
interesting.
What is in my opinion of interest is how much of the additional thought you
need to put in in order to achieve higher terseness is spent
a) on more pentrating insight on the problem as such, encouraged by the
mind-set and abstractions associated with a language (let's call this
expressiveness)
and how much of it is spent
b) on perl-golf style geek masturbation that focuses on recalling and
exploiting the language's various behavioral oddities that are only of
coincidental or low-level relevance to the problem (let's call this
golf-syndrome)
I'm not claiming that the boundaries between the two are always unambigious,
but I think the distinction is pretty important when discussing pros and cons
of differences in terseness between languages.
Apart from scaling better, one reason that a), expressiveness, is much more
interesting than b), golf-syndrome, is that it translates to some extent even
to writing code in other languages as it enriches the programmer's reservoir
of metaphors and abstractions. Typically this also has a beneficial effect
for coding even in languages that offer no direct support for these
abstractions (I bet a programmer with, say extensive python, J and prolog
experience and just a little bit of C background is in many cases likely to
come up with a superior C solutions to challenging problems than someone who's
got the same amount of experience in C only).
Therefore...
You often get these threads on c.l.python about How can I do this in one
line, usually with some example of how it is done in only 13 characters in
Perl. Yes you may spend less time typing - but unless you are a true expert
in (J, Perl, other terse language) the time you spend actually working out
how to type it, and in debugging it far outweighs the time you'd spend on
all of that typing in a clean but more verbose language such as Python.
... I also don't think your pairing of J and Perl is particularly helpful. As
long as no one can point me to some resonable examples demonstrating otherwise
I flattly deny that Perl is more concise than python in an *interesting* way,
i.e. by encouraging or enabling a)
(BTW not interesting != not practically relevant; harking back to my
previous posts, typing effort *does matter* in some contexts, such as
command-line one-liners; IMO the only thing perl is useful for.)
J, on the other hand, whilst also suffering somewhat from golf-syndrome, does
in my opinion also enable a)-style terseness. Let me give an example:
Before reading further, how would you code a program that gives the following
output ('skewed' sierpinski-triangle) in python? I'll give some remarkably
concise and IMO lucid J code and a python translation below.
*
**
* *
* *
** **
* * * *
* *
** **
* * * *
* * * *
** ** ** **
* * * * * * * *
SPOILERS AHEAD
J solution
--
I can think of two nice ways in J, 13 and 16 characters long respectively and
each expressing something essential and non-trival about the problem in a way
that would be more cumbersome in python.
Here's the first one:
(,,.~)^:4,'*' NB. due to Cliff Reiter, slightly adapted
Possible Python translation
---
Here's a python transiteration attempt:
# ^: , ~,.
print rep(hook(vertcat, self(horzcat)),4)('*')
or slightly more idiomatic:
def sierpinski(x):
return vertcat(x,horzcat(x,x))
print rep(sierpinsky,4)('*')
With:
def identity(x): return x
def rep(f,n): # f^:n
if n 0: return lambda *args: rep(inverse(f),-n)(*args)
elif n == 0: return identity
else: return lambda *args: rep(f,n-1)(f(*args))
# horzcat and vertcat are only string-based special purpose mockups for this
# problem since python doesn't have arrays
def horzcat(a,b): # a,.b
return \n.join(a_i+b_i for (a_i,b_i) in zip(a.split('\n'),
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander
Alexander Schmolck [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I can think of two nice ways in J, 13 and 16 characters long respectively and
each expressing something essential and non-trival about the problem in a way
that would be more cumbersome in python.
Here's the first one:
(,,.~)^:4,'*' NB. due to Cliff Reiter, slightly adapted
Well, not as interesting as your solution, but definitively less mind-boggling
and much more flexible/extendible
l = [True]
pr = {True: '*', False: ' '}
for k in range(15):
print ''.join([pr[x] for x in l])
l = [True] + [l[i+1]^l[i] for i in range(len(l)-1)] + [True]
more elegant solutions sought!
tnoo
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Re: Calling J from Python
ant: and in debugging it far outweighs the time you'd spend on all of that typing in a clean but more verbose language such as Python. Typing time counts a bit too. A language like Java is even more verbose than Python, and that probably slows down the actual programming, compared to less verbose languages. I think there is some verbosity sweet spot between J and Java, and for me that's called Python ;-) Martin Lüthi: more elegant solutions sought! This is a bit simpler, but probably there are simpler solutions using modular arithmetic: l = [1] for _ in range(15): print ''.join( *[x] for x in l) l = [1] + [l[i+1]^l[i] for i in range(len(l)-1)] + [1] Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 9, 9:20 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
ant:
and in debugging it far outweighs the time you'd spend on all
of that typing in a clean but more verbose language such as Python.
Typing time counts a bit too. A language like Java is even more
verbose than Python, and that probably slows down the actual
programming, compared to less verbose languages. I think there is some
verbosity sweet spot between J and Java, and for me that's called
Python ;-)
Martin Lüthi:
more elegant solutions sought!
This is a bit simpler, but probably there are simpler solutions using
modular arithmetic:
l = [1]
for _ in range(15):
print ''.join( *[x] for x in l)
l = [1] + [l[i+1]^l[i] for i in range(len(l)-1)] + [1]
Bye,
bearophile
Here's another one, adapted from the example (in Java) in Wikipedia's
entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sierpinski_triangle):
N=15
for x in xrange(N,0,-1):
print ''.join('* '[xy!=0] for y in xrange(N+1-x))
George
--
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Re: Calling J from Python
Dennis Lee Bieber [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 10:55:17 +0200, Hendrik van Rooyen [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: I am under the impression that Loki had a daughter called Hel ... One of his few normal offspring... After all, Loki also was Sleipnir's* /mother/! And probably related to Fenrir (aka, the Fenris Wolf) as well. * Odin's eight-legged horse We should both be more careful - using the past tense like that is disrespectful, and there are no guarantees that the Norse gods are dead. Vindictive lot, they were.. uuhhh are, I mean. - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Tina I wrote: .. It's also a village in Norway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway In German it's bright -- Robin Becker -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
I may have mistook the source code licence for the use licence.. I will look into a little further to see what it can do.. Looks like you are not allowed to redistribute k for profit. Some day I will look up letters a random in the search engine to see what I come up with. On Feb 6, 2:05 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 6, 3:04 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 5, 8:48 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... There are a couple of issue that should be adressed. Am I going to jail if I write a program and then redistribute all the files required to run the program I write?? J is free for anyone to download and use. If someone is interested in putting you in jail it will not because you distribute J or redistribute the J utilities. The second is how do I use the j stuff without learning all that much about j. Just like Python then how much time you spend is uo to you. If you want to be good at it you may have to spend some time. You may also be just a casual user and dip into it now and again. There are lots of Demos, Labs and Help files besides all the utilities. You can freely use the utilities and examples to create your own application. You can write code in conventional style and not spend any time on the advanced functionality. I am just intrested in stealing graphics libraries and using what I have already written in python.. There are a number of graphics examples, utilities and demos you can use in J and combine it with Python. The new grid classes in J are amazingly useful too. I am just starting to learn Python and I find it interesting to combine it with J. I know a few people who are doing so successfully. There are always some nicetise in any language that can be beneficial. Combining them enhances both. http://groups.google.com/group/j-programminghttp://jsoftware.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 8, 12:00 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I may have mistook the source code licence for the use licence.. I will look into a little further to see what it can do.. Looks like you are not allowed to redistribute k for profit. Some day I will look up letters a random in the search engine to see what I come up with. On Feb 6, 2:05 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 6, 3:04 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 5, 8:48 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... There are a couple of issue that should be adressed. Am I going to jail if I write a program and then redistribute all the files required to run the program I write?? J is free for anyone to download and use. If someone is interested in putting you in jail it will not because you distribute J or redistribute the J utilities. The second is how do I use the j stuff without learning all that much about j. Just like Python then how much time you spend is uo to you. If you want to be good at it you may have to spend some time. You may also be just a casual user and dip into it now and again. There are lots of Demos, Labs and Help files besides all the utilities. You can freely use the utilities and examples to create your own application. You can write code in conventional style and not spend any time on the advanced functionality. I am just intrested in stealing graphics libraries and using what I have already written in python.. There are a number of graphics examples, utilities and demos you can use in J and combine it with Python. The new grid classes in J are amazingly useful too. I am just starting to learn Python and I find it interesting to combine it with J. I know a few people who are doing so successfully. There are always some nicetise in any language that can be beneficial. Combining them enhances both. http://groups.google.com/group/j-programminghttp://jsoftware.com/ You can get older versions of the source code too for free. The utility sources are also free. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Tina I [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: On Feb 7, 3:46 pm, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gosi wrote: I like to use J for many things and I think that combining Python and J is a hell of a good mixture. I was able to follow this sentence up to and including the word hell... :-) Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch That is a start. Hell is also what most example start with as in Hello something Hell in northern countries is very cold. Hell in middle east is very hot. I do not know which is your Hell hot or cold. Hell o veröld It's also a village in Norway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway :D I am under the impression that Loki had a daughter called Hel ... - Hendrik -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Hendrik van Rooyen wrote: I am under the impression that Loki had a daughter called Hel ... - Hendrik Yes. And Hel was the queen of the underworld which was also called 'Hel' (Which of course is 'hell', in modern Norwegian : helvete) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 6, 9:08 pm, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi: There are a number of graphics examples, utilities and demos you can use in J and combine it with Python. Some of those graphic examples are very nice, I have seen a big site filled with complex fractals, chaotic attractors, etc. Python Zen seems somewhat opposed to part of the J spirit, that's why it's not easy to advertise J in this newsgroup. Python is open source, and it values readability, it belives that it's better to write more and be more readable/debuggable, than to be able to express many things with few symbols. APL was an interesting language, powerful too, and J looks more keyboard-friendly and it's probably better for other things too. K seems even less readable than J to me. Probably J has to be compared more to scipy than to Python itself, because they share some purposes, the vector/matrix processing. If you need to do lot of array processing the syntax of scipy (with the help of MatPlotLib too, that's partially copied from MatLab) isn't (may be not) high-level enough, the system isn't able to simplify things by itself, etc. So in that situation a more functional language may be fitter (maybe even F#, but probably there are better languages around for that purpose, some modern ones coming from ML family). Bye, bearophile Ken Iverson created APL and it ran first time on a computer 1966. Ken Iverson then corrected several things and made it so different that he could no longer use the name and the results was J around 1990. J can be very short and effective. I like to use J for many things and I think that combining Python and J is a hell of a good mixture. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gosi wrote: I like to use J for many things and I think that combining Python and J is a hell of a good mixture. I was able to follow this sentence up to and including the word hell… :-) Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 7, 3:46 pm, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gosi wrote: I like to use J for many things and I think that combining Python and J is a hell of a good mixture. I was able to follow this sentence up to and including the word hell... :-) Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch That is a start. Hell is also what most example start with as in Hello something Hell in northern countries is very cold. Hell in middle east is very hot. I do not know which is your Hell hot or cold. Hell o veröld -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi wrote: On Feb 7, 3:46 pm, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Gosi wrote: I like to use J for many things and I think that combining Python and J is a hell of a good mixture. I was able to follow this sentence up to and including the word hell... :-) Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch That is a start. Hell is also what most example start with as in Hello something Hell in northern countries is very cold. Hell in middle east is very hot. I do not know which is your Hell hot or cold. Hell o veröld It's also a village in Norway: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hell,_Norway :D -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 6, 3:04 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 5, 8:48 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... There are a couple of issue that should be adressed. Am I going to jail if I write a program and then redistribute all the files required to run the program I write?? J is free for anyone to download and use. If someone is interested in putting you in jail it will not because you distribute J or redistribute the J utilities. The second is how do I use the j stuff without learning all that much about j. Just like Python then how much time you spend is uo to you. If you want to be good at it you may have to spend some time. You may also be just a casual user and dip into it now and again. There are lots of Demos, Labs and Help files besides all the utilities. You can freely use the utilities and examples to create your own application. You can write code in conventional style and not spend any time on the advanced functionality. I am just intrested in stealing graphics libraries and using what I have already written in python.. There are a number of graphics examples, utilities and demos you can use in J and combine it with Python. The new grid classes in J are amazingly useful too. I am just starting to learn Python and I find it interesting to combine it with J. I know a few people who are doing so successfully. There are always some nicetise in any language that can be beneficial. Combining them enhances both. http://groups.google.com/group/j-programming http://jsoftware.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 5, 3:48 pm, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... As I understand it, the k language, which is similar to J, is used to interact with streamed realtime financial data, where I imagine the terseness of the language may make sense. I messed about with J for a day or two, and found it interesting and in a way natural (given some Higher Math background once upon a time). Here's a link to a company who it looks like could value some knowledge of J/K/APL type languages: http://www.kx.com/news/in-the- news.php All the best Gerard -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi a écrit : On Feb 6, 3:04 am, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Feb 5, 8:48 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... There are a couple of issue that should be adressed. Am I going to jail if I write a program and then redistribute all the files required to run the program I write?? J is free for anyone to download and use. But not to inspect or modify. This is free as in free beer, not as in free speech. The second is how do I use the j stuff without learning all that much about j. Just like Python then how much time you spend is uo to you. If you want to be good at it you may have to spend some time. You may also be just a casual user and dip into it now and again. This is easy with Python, which emphasis readability. I doubt one can say the same about j. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi: There are a number of graphics examples, utilities and demos you can use in J and combine it with Python. Some of those graphic examples are very nice, I have seen a big site filled with complex fractals, chaotic attractors, etc. Python Zen seems somewhat opposed to part of the J spirit, that's why it's not easy to advertise J in this newsgroup. Python is open source, and it values readability, it belives that it's better to write more and be more readable/debuggable, than to be able to express many things with few symbols. APL was an interesting language, powerful too, and J looks more keyboard-friendly and it's probably better for other things too. K seems even less readable than J to me. Probably J has to be compared more to scipy than to Python itself, because they share some purposes, the vector/matrix processing. If you need to do lot of array processing the syntax of scipy (with the help of MatPlotLib too, that's partially copied from MatLab) isn't (may be not) high-level enough, the system isn't able to simplify things by itself, etc. So in that situation a more functional language may be fitter (maybe even F#, but probably there are better languages around for that purpose, some modern ones coming from ML family). Bye, bearophile -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Calling J from Python
It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e84b75667f5f64e -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e84b75667f5f64e What is J, and why should we care? Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... What is J, and why should we care? Diez J is in many ways similar to Python. J has very many advanced operations. http://www.jsoftware.com/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi wrote: J is in many ways similar to Python. The only one I see at the moment is that they're both some kind of programming languages. J has very many advanced operations. Sure. Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 In the meantime, do you now have an answer to why we should care? Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #314: You need to upgrade your VESA local bus to a MasterCard local bus. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi J is in many ways similar to Python. Gosi J has very many advanced operations. Gosi http://www.jsoftware.com/ Doesn't look like open source of any variety. If a person uses Python with various add-ons (RPy, numpy, matplotlib, etc) why would they want to switch to a closed source product? Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Bjoern Schliessmann wrote: Gosi wrote: J is in many ways similar to Python. The only one I see at the moment is that they're both some kind of programming languages. J has very many advanced operations. Sure. Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 In the meantime, do you now have an answer to why we should care? Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #314: You need to upgrade your VESA local bus to a MasterCard local bus. Be nice ! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi wrote:
On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gosi wrote:
It is quite easy to call J from Python
http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8...
What is J, and why should we care?
Diez
J is in many ways similar to Python.
J has very many advanced operations.
What exactly do you call similar to python when the following is a program
written in it? Compared to that, even Perl is a wonder of readability...
m=: @(0{)
v=: @(1{)
h=: @(2{)
qu =: @(3{)
z=: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
ret =: |[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
init =: z;z;z;i.
f1m =: (m,[EMAIL PROTECTED]);v;h;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
f5m =: (z;(v,{:@m);h;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) @ (f1m^:5)
f1h =: (z;z;(h,{:@v);(qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED])) @ (f5m^:12)
f12h =: (z;z;z;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED],{:@h) @ (f1h^:12)
perm =: qu @ f12h @ init
ord =: *./ @ (#_) @ C.
days =: -: @ ord @ perm
http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/The_Ball_Clock_Problem
Diez
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Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 5, 12:23 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... What is J, and why should we care? Diez J is in many ways similar to Python. J has very many advanced operations. What exactly do you call similar to python when the following is a program written in it? Compared to that, even Perl is a wonder of readability... (cryptic gibberish snipped) http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/The_Ball_Clock_Problem Diez Please avoid posting code looking like garbled profanities in c.l.py. This was outright offensive. George -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Gosi J is in many ways similar to Python. Gosi J has very many advanced operations. Gosi http://www.jsoftware.com/ Doesn't look like open source of any variety. If a person uses Python with various add-ons (RPy, numpy, matplotlib, etc) why would they want to switch to a closed source product? You wouldn't, if for nothing else because python has far better scientific libraries. If you've got an interest in programming languages as such J (or some other APL) is worth a look though; it's also handy for quick mathematical experimentation (J's array primitives are more expressive than what numpy offers and python doesn't support rationals, so it's not just concise due to perl-style crypticness). For example I once wrote this (slow) code to display part of a mandelbrot fractal: load'viewmat' viewmat+/2:|((j.~/~(%~i:)99)+@:*:)^:(i.32)0 It'll likely require you more typing in python, but then you'd need to do such things quite a lot for seeing an amortization in terms of less time spent with your PC; I think most people will find they need a seizable learning investment to get anywhere with J and python already is very expressive for the kind of things J is good at. 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Bjoern Schliessmann wrote: Gosi wrote: J is in many ways similar to Python. The only one I see at the moment is that they're both some kind of programming languages. J has very many advanced operations. Sure. Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 In the meantime, do you now have an answer to why we should care? Regards, Björn And why is that superior to this: def avg(l): return float(sum(l))/len(l) avg([1,2,3,4]) 2.5 Which can actually be read and debugged in the future! -Larry -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:52:27 +0100, Bjoern Schliessmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 That looks like some variation of APL my colleague informs me that it is indeed associated with some of the same people if not with Mr Iverson. -- Robin Becker -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Robin Becker [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Mon, 05 Feb 2007 17:52:27 +0100, Bjoern Schliessmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] declaimed the following in comp.lang.python: Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 That looks like some variation of APL my colleague informs me that it is indeed associated with some of the same people if not with Mr Iverson. The late Ken Iverson designed both J and APL (he has also written an number of freely downloadable math books using J, see jsoftware.com). 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Larry Bates [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And why is that superior to this: def avg(l): return float(sum(l))/len(l) avg([1,2,3,4]) 2.5 Apart from being less to type and it is superior in that it's generalizes much better, e.g: avg.^. NB. geomtric mean avg.%NB. harmonic mean avg M NB. column mean of matrix M avg1 M NB. row mean of matrix M 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Diez B. Roggisch wrote:
m=: @(0{)
v=: @(1{)
h=: @(2{)
qu =: @(3{)
z=: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
ret =: |[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
init =: z;z;z;i.
f1m =: (m,[EMAIL PROTECTED]);v;h;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
f5m =: (z;(v,{:@m);h;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) @ (f1m^:5)
f1h =: (z;z;(h,{:@v);(qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED])) @ (f5m^:12)
f12h =: (z;z;z;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED],{:@h) @ (f1h^:12)
perm =: qu @ f12h @ init
ord =: *./ @ (#_) @ C.
days =: -: @ ord @ perm
http://www.jsoftware.com/jwiki/Essays/The_Ball_Clock_Problem
Diez
Why dont they call it smiley ?
Operators: :-) :) :o) :-$ *¦:O)XD-_-+_+^_^*_*!_!
_=_=o_oX_X-_o;)$_$__o_0
_?_?'_'O.O$.$T.T._.u.u - =] {-_-}
(source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smiley )
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Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck wrote: Apart from being less to type Cool. Less to type. and it is superior in that it's generalizes much better, e.g: avg.^. NB. geomtric mean avg.%NB. harmonic mean avg M NB. column mean of matrix M avg1 M NB. row mean of matrix M Is there any regularity in this? If it is, it's not obvious at all. Regards, Björn -- BOFH excuse #78: Yes, yes, its called a design limitation -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Mh, just looking at some advanced J source taken from wikipedia.org makes me feel sick: | Here's a J program to calculate the average of a list of numbers: |avg=: +/ % # |avg 1 2 3 4 | 2.5 And here is the Python way of calculating the average mean([1,2,3,4]) 2.5 sorry, I don't see any advantage. cheers, Stef Mientki -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi a écrit : On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... What is J, and why should we care? Diez J is in many ways similar to Python. J has very many advanced operations. http://www.jsoftware.com/ Our policy on source for our binaries is between the extremes of Microsoft proprietary source and Linux open source. You can have the benefits of open source for J binaries, but under a license and a fee. Good bye J. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Gosi a écrit : On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gosi wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... What is J, and why should we care? Diez J is in many ways similar to Python. So are Javascript and Ruby. J has very many advanced operations. what's an advanced operation ? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Larry Bates a écrit : def avg(l): return float(sum(l))/len(l) avg([1,2,3,4]) 2.5 def avg(*args): return float(sum(args)) / len(args)) Which can actually be read and debugged in the future! in_my_arms(tm) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck a écrit : Larry Bates [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And why is that superior to this: def avg(l): return float(sum(l))/len(l) avg([1,2,3,4]) 2.5 Apart from being less to type and it is superior in that it's generalizes much better, e.g: avg.^. NB. geomtric mean avg.%NB. harmonic mean avg M NB. column mean of matrix M avg1 M NB. row mean of matrix M 'as Would my beloved wife's life depend on it, I just couldn't say what all this garbage is supposed to mean. If that's supposed to be superior, I'm quite happy with my inferior favorite languages... -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Diez B. Roggisch a écrit :
Gosi wrote:
On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Gosi wrote:
It is quite easy to call J from Python
http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8...
What is J, and why should we care?
Diez
J is in many ways similar to Python.
J has very many advanced operations.
What exactly do you call similar to python when the following is a program
written in it? Compared to that, even Perl is a wonder of readability...
m=: @(0{)
v=: @(1{)
h=: @(2{)
qu =: @(3{)
z=: [EMAIL PROTECTED]:
ret =: |[EMAIL PROTECTED]:
init =: z;z;z;i.
f1m =: (m,[EMAIL PROTECTED]);v;h;[EMAIL PROTECTED]
f5m =: (z;(v,{:@m);h;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED]) @ (f1m^:5)
f1h =: (z;z;(h,{:@v);(qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED])) @ (f5m^:12)
f12h =: (z;z;z;qu,[EMAIL PROTECTED],{:@h) @ (f1h^:12)
perm =: qu @ f12h @ init
ord =: *./ @ (#_) @ C.
days =: -: @ ord @ perm
Yuck. I'd rather program in b**k.
--
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Re: Calling J from Python
Bjoern Schliessmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alexander Schmolck wrote: Apart from being less to type Cool. Less to type. Yes. Readability is more important in many context, but for something designed for interactive experimentation and exploration little typing is absolutely essential. Would you use a calculator that would require Java-style boilerplate to add two numbers? I'd also venture that readability and typing ease are typically closely positively correlated (compare python to C++) and although I would not claim that J is particularly readable I'm also not an expert user (I doubt I would even then, but I'm sure it *does* make a difference). and it is superior in that it's generalizes much better, e.g: avg.^. NB. geomtric mean avg.%NB. harmonic mean avg M NB. column mean of matrix M avg1 M NB. row mean of matrix M Is there any regularity in this? If it is, it's not obvious at all. Sure. ``f.g`` is like ``(f o g) o g^-1`` in common mathemetical notation. ``^.`` is log and ``%`` is inversion/division. Making ``.`` (it's called under) available as a convenient abstraction is IMO one really useful innovation of J. As for the remaing two: it's similar to numpy in that one and the same function can normally operate on arrays of different dimensions (including scalars). In numpy you'd also write stuff like ``mean(M, axis=1)``, it's not exactly the same, although the axis abstraction comes from APL (another cool idea), J introduces a slightly different approach. The ``1`` means operate on cells of rank 1 (i.e. vectors), rather than operate along a certain axis. For dyadic (2-argument) functions you can also specify different left and right rank, so you could write the outerproduct v'w thus: ``v *0 1 w`` (multiply each 0-cell (i.e scalar) of v with each 1-cell (i.e. vector, there is only one) of w). Unlike the linear algebra notation this readily generalizes to more than 1 dimensional objects. BTW I don't think J is an ideal language, not even for numerical computing -- there are plenty of things I'd do differently and that includes measures that would IMO greatly aid readability (like getting rid of ambivalence[1]). But I have little doubt that, no matter what its flaws may be, APL (and J is really just an updated, ASCII-based APL) is one of the most innovative and important programming languages ever conceived. Anyone interested in the design of programming language for scientific computing ought to take a look at at least a look at it or one of its descendants. 'as Footnotes: [1] Basically almost every J function has a completely different meaning depending on whether you use it as a unary or binary function (just as conventionally - is abusively used for both substraction and negation). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck wrote: Would you use a calculator that would require Java-style boilerplate to add two numbers? This isn't a Java newsgroup, so your metaphor is irrelevant. People use Python because it *isn't* Java and does not succumb to the problem you seem to be accusing it of. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: Gosi a écrit : On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J has very many advanced operations. what's an advanced operation ? An operation which dont stay in place. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck a écrit : Bjoern Schliessmann [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Alexander Schmolck wrote: Apart from being less to type Cool. Less to type. Yes. Readability is more important in many context, but for something designed for interactive experimentation and exploration little typing is absolutely essential. Would you use a calculator that would require Java-style boilerplate to add two numbers? No, thanks. But hopefully we have Python : Python 2.4.1 (#1, Jul 23 2005, 00:37:37) [GCC 3.3.4 20040623 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.4-r1, ssp-3.3.2-2, pie-8.7.6)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. 3 + 4 7 !-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Laurent Pointal a écrit : Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: Gosi a écrit : On Feb 5, 2:59 pm, Diez B. Roggisch [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: J has very many advanced operations. what's an advanced operation ? An operation which dont stay in place. You meant something like a good camembert ?-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Bruno Desthuilliers [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: No, thanks. But hopefully we have Python : Python 2.4.1 (#1, Jul 23 2005, 00:37:37) [GCC 3.3.4 20040623 (Gentoo Linux 3.3.4-r1, ssp-3.3.2-2, pie-8.7.6)] on linux2 Type help, copyright, credits or license for more information. 3 + 4 7 My calculuator even gives a pretty good answer if I divide them (without importing anything from the __future__). 'as -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
Alexander Schmolck wrote: For example I once wrote this (slow) code to display part of a mandelbrot fractal: load'viewmat' viewmat+/2:|((j.~/~(%~i:)99)+@:*:)^:(i.32)0 It'll likely require you more typing in python, Yes, but with Python you wouldn't have to spend a couple of weeks sitting and thinking before starting to type that line... -- Greg -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 5, 8:48 am, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... There are a couple of issue that should be adressed. Am I going to jail if I write a program and then redistribute all the files required to run the program I write?? The second is how do I use the j stuff without learning all that much about j. I am just intrested in stealing graphics libraries and using what I have already written in python.. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Calling J from Python
On Feb 5, 2:48 pm, Gosi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is quite easy to call J from Python http://groups.google.com/group/J-Programming/browse_thread/thread/5e8... Hii Gosi, From reading what has gone before, you seem to have got it in the neck from some pythonistas. I'd just like to say from some but not all. It is *A GOOD THING* that Python has bridges to other languages. Some may not care to program in the other language - which is a separate concer;. but a link between the language - be it Haskell or befunge or J, makes Python better in my view. If your expert J programmers have need for something that is hard to do in J they might now be more likely to use Python. We should remember that Python is a great glue language too, and links to other languages and tools is how we maintain that position. - Paddy. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
