Re: IDE for python
Le 28/05/2014 13:31, Sameer Rathoud a écrit : I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. What problem did you encounter while trying to install spyder ? Spyder is oriented towards scientific applications, but can be used as a general python IDE. I use it for GUI development too. --- Ce courrier électronique ne contient aucun virus ou logiciel malveillant parce que la protection avast! Antivirus est active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 02/06/2014 11:43, Tim Golden wrote: On 02/06/2014 10:15, Chris Angelico wrote: On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote: What is the Latin for "resident unicode expert go home"? Google Translate says: Eusebius, et revertatur in domum perito resident. ChrisA Try: Perite domestice unicodicis: vade in domum tuam [from a friend of mine who manages to combine expertise in historical writings and competence in Unicode] TJG Surely that'll give a syntax error as the indentation is incorrect, there's no except: clause and the comment should be in quotes, not square brackets??? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 02/06/2014 10:15, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote: >> >> What is the Latin for "resident unicode expert go home"? > > Google Translate says: > > Eusebius, et revertatur in domum perito resident. > > ChrisA > Try: Perite domestice unicodicis: vade in domum tuam [from a friend of mine who manages to combine expertise in historical writings and competence in Unicode] TJG -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Chris Angelico gmail.com> writes: > > On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Mark Lawrence yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > > > > What is the Latin for "resident unicode expert go home"? > > Google Translate says: > > Eusebius, et revertatur in domum perito resident. > > ChrisA > Oh, the joys of Google Translate. Round-tripping this through French (as wxjm may do) back to English I get: Eusebius, and return to their seat in the house experience I'd translate it roughly as: I domum, perite omnipräsens unicodicis! but my last (school) use of Latin is many years back. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Mon, Jun 2, 2014 at 7:02 PM, Mark Lawrence wrote: > > What is the Latin for "resident unicode expert go home"? Google Translate says: Eusebius, et revertatur in domum perito resident. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 02/06/2014 09:15, Tim Golden wrote: On 02/06/2014 08:28, Wolfgang Maier wrote: gmail.com> writes: Amen. Ite missa est. Oh, why all the lamenting about python's unicode support, when your latin is so superbe ! Elegant solution to all your problems :) After all, if you can't use Latin-1 for Latin, what can you use it for? TJG What is the Latin for "resident unicode expert go home"? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 02/06/2014 08:28, Wolfgang Maier wrote: > gmail.com> writes: > >> >> Amen. >> Ite missa est. >> > > Oh, why all the lamenting about python's unicode support, when your latin is > so superbe ! Elegant solution to all your problems :) After all, if you can't use Latin-1 for Latin, what can you use it for? TJG -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
gmail.com> writes: > > Amen. > Ite missa est. > Oh, why all the lamenting about python's unicode support, when your latin is so superbe ! Elegant solution to all your problems :) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Le vendredi 30 mai 2014 16:04:18 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit : > On Friday, May 30, 2014 7:24:10 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > > > Rustom Mody wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. > > > > > > > > How do you do this with emacs? > > > > I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc > > > > > > > > > > > > To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer: > > > > > > > > >M-x grep > > >Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e > > > > Well... > > lgrep is cleverer than grep (in a stupid sort of way :D ) > > Was just wondering if there were some other tricks Out of curiosity. Are you the Rusi Mody attempting to dive in Xe(La)TeX? jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Le vendredi 30 mai 2014 18:38:04 UTC+2, Mark Lawrence a écrit : > On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote: > > > On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > > It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! > > > > > > > This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach > > to unicode. Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python > > 3.0. Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python > > 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most > > cases it was faster. Just what do some people want in life, jam on it? > > > > -- > > My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask > > what you can do for our language. > > > > Mark Lawrence > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com A guy who is understanding unicode would not have even spent its time in writing a PEP 393 proposal. I skip the discussion(s) I read here and there about PDF. Put this comment in relation with my Xe(La)TeX knowledge. jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Le vendredi 30 mai 2014 18:15:09 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit : > On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > > > > > Out of curiosity. > > > Are you the Rusi Mody attempting to dive in Xe(La)TeX? > > > > Yeah :-) > > > > As my blog posts labelled unicode will indicate I am a fan of using > > unicode in program source: > > http://blog.languager.org/search/label/Unicode > > > > Of course it is not exactly a coincidence that I used APL a bit in my > > early days. At that time it was great fun though we did not take it > > seriously.* > > > > It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! > > > > And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial > > anagram if written as XƎTEX > > > > However in all fairness I should say that I cannot seem to find my > > way to that promised land yet: > > - xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly > > - mathjax is awesome however its firmly latex (not xetex) based > > > > --- > > * And the fact that there are recent implementations including web ones means > its by no means dead: > > http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/ > > which I think unicode aficionados will enjoy = Ok, thanks for the answer. "xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly" ? jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Le mercredi 28 mai 2014 14:55:35 UTC+2, Chris Angelico a écrit :
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
>
> >> > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development.
>
> >
>
> > Anything that writes text is fine.
>
> > I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use
>
> > Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by
>
> > default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it.
>
>
>
> No. Don't use Notepad for anything! It's easy enough to get a better
>
> editor. Among its other faults, Notepad:
>
>
>
> 1) Has problems with LF line endings (they vanish, and you have hugely
>
> long lines)
>
> 2) Puts three junk bytes onto the beginning of a file that it
>
> considers saved as UTF-8
>
> 3) Doesn't understand coding cookies, and will happily save something
>
> in a different encoding like CP-1252 (which it calls "ANSI")
>
> 4) Guesses encodings on load, giving rise to the famous "Bush hid the
>
> facts" trick - although this is unlikely to be a problem with
>
> something of decent size
>
> 5) Has issues with large files - or at least, it did last time I
>
> tried; this may no longer be true with Windows 7/8
>
>
>
> Default text editors on the Linux distros I've used have been far
>
> better, but still less than ideal. With Debian Squeeze, I got a gedit
>
> that bugged me in several ways, which is what pushed me onto SciTE.
>
> You can certainly start coding with gedit, though. The issues that I
>
> had with it were relating to heavy-duty usage that I do, where I'm
>
> basically spending an entire day delving into code and moving stuff
>
> around. These days, though, I'd rather have one editor on both the
>
> platforms I use (Windows and Linux, each in multiple variants), as it
>
> allows me to share configs and comfortable keystrokes. There are
>
> plenty of cross-platform editors to choose from.
>
>
>
> So, I agree with your analysis, as regards gedit ("know exactly what
>
> you don't like about it"). If it doesn't bug you, use it. But if
>
> Notepad doesn't bug you, *still don't use it*, because it's like
>
> driving a car that isn't structurally sound. It might not be you that
>
> gets hurt by it... or it might not be for quite a while that you see
>
> the problems... but the pain will happen.
>
>
>
> ChrisA
Amen.
Ite missa est.
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Re: IDE for python
Le vendredi 30 mai 2014 19:30:27 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit : > On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:47:33 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > > > = > > > > > Ok, thanks for the answer. > > > > > "xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly" > > > > > ? > > > > Problem is a combination of > > 1. I am a somewhat clueless noob > > 2. xetex is emerging technology therefore changing fast and not stable > > > > So when something does not work I dont know whether: > > - its 1 (I am doing something silly) > > - Or 2 (I have actually hit a bug) > > > > I tried writing some small (hello-world) type text using unicode chars rather > > the old-fashioned \alpha type of locutions. It worked. > > Added a bunch of more latex packages from apt. > > It stopped working. > > > > -- > > PS It would help all if you read > > https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython > > and dont double-space earlier mails. It's not the place to discuss TeX here. (I have actually 16 more or less complete "distros" on my hd on Windows, all working very well. They are on my hd, but all run from an usb stick as well!) jmf -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Le dimanche 1 juin 2014 03:48:07 UTC+2, Rustom Mody a écrit :
> On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote:
>
>
>
> > You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps.
>
> > The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that
>
>
>
> > I am talking about something quite different.
>
> > Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel"
>
> > According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel
>
> > But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would
> > justifiably
>
> > cause irritation/offense.
>
>
>
> Curiously I just saw this tex/emacs question/answer elsewhere –
>
> particularly amusing the first 'char' of the answer.
>
>
>
> Question:
>
> | I'm a new Emacs/Auctex User. Auctex for Emacs is amazing but
>
> | there are some little things could be better. When generating a
>
> | section with c-c c-s the label ist generated automatically. But
>
> | if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this
>
> | becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that
>
> | auctex will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'?
>
>
>
> Answer:
>
> | '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in references.
>
> | For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little patch.
%%
\begin{document}
""" A small text, αβγ. {\label{étiquette€α}}\\
See page \pageref{étiquette€α}. """
\end{document}
>>> # copy/paste from the generated pdf in my interactive
>>> # interpreter.
>>> """ A small text, αβγ.
... See page 1. """
' A small text, αβγ.\nSee page 1. '
>>>
jmf
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Re: IDE for python
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 7:06 PM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 18:31:09 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: > >> the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet in >> identifiers... > > I'm not entirely sure about that. Full Unicode support in identifiers > such as URLs doesn't create a brand new vulnerability, but it does > increase it from a fairly minor problem to something *much* harder to > deal with. It's bad enough when somebody manages to fool you into going > to (say) app1e.com instead of apple.com, without also being at risk from > аррlе, аpрlе, арplе and аррle (to mention just a few). At least nobody > can fake .com with .соm. > > To put it another way: > > py> аррlе = 23 > py> apple = 42 > py> assert аррlе == apple > Traceback (most recent call last): > File "", line 1, in > AssertionError Yeah, that is a concern. But as you say, it's already possible to confuse rn with m (in many fonts) and i/l/1, and (on a different level) Foo, foo, _foo, _Foo, and FOO, or movement_Direction and movement_direction. If you saw one of those in one part of a program and another in another, you'd have to consume an annoying amount of mindspace to keep them separate. Note, incidentally, that I said "alphabet" rather than the entire Unicode character set. I do *not* support the use of, for instance, U+200B 'ZERO WIDTH SPACE' in identifiers, that's just stupid :) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Sun, 01 Jun 2014 18:31:09 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote: > the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet in > identifiers... I'm not entirely sure about that. Full Unicode support in identifiers such as URLs doesn't create a brand new vulnerability, but it does increase it from a fairly minor problem to something *much* harder to deal with. It's bad enough when somebody manages to fool you into going to (say) app1e.com instead of apple.com, without also being at risk from аррlе, аpрlе, арplе and аррle (to mention just a few). At least nobody can fake .com with .соm. To put it another way: py> аррlе = 23 py> apple = 42 py> assert аррlе == apple Traceback (most recent call last): File "", line 1, in AssertionError -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Sunday, June 1, 2014 2:01:09 PM UTC+5:30, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > > As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior. > > Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A > > Finnish-speaker would much rather see > >Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa > >Öllölä => Ollola > >Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen > > than > >Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae > >Öllölä => Oelloelae > >Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen > It's even worse than that. The rules for ASCIIfying adorned characters > vary according to context - Müller and Mueller are different names, > and in many contexts should sort and compare differently, and I > remember reading somewhere that there's a context in which it's more > useful to decompose ü to u rather than ue. There is no "safe" lossy > transformation that can be done to any language's words, and this is > no exception. ASCIIfication has to be accepted as flawed; this issue > (an inability to handle non-ASCII labels) is similar to a lot of blog > URLs - > http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/08/20th-international-g-festival-awards.html > is talking about the "International G&S Festival" awards, but the URL > drops the "&S" part. (If you absolutely have to transmit something > losslessly in pure ASCII, you need a scheme like Punycode, which is a > lot less clean and readable than a decomposition scheme.) > Of course, the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet > in identifiers... Yes that is the real point. Changing the current behavior which maps [ö,ä…] → [o,a…] to a new behavior that maps it to [oe,ae…], then arguing that this should/should not become default is the wrong battle. The more useful line is: Why have this conversion at all? Until hardly 3 years ago html authors wrote non-ASCII as chars as html entities. Now the current standard practice is directly to write the character and make sure the page is explicitly utf-8. Its only a question of time before this becomes standard practice in all domains -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Sun, Jun 1, 2014 at 5:58 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior. > Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A > Finnish-speaker would much rather see > >Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa >Öllölä => Ollola >Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen > > than > >Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae >Öllölä => Oelloelae >Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen It's even worse than that. The rules for ASCIIfying adorned characters vary according to context - Müller and Mueller are different names, and in many contexts should sort and compare differently, and I remember reading somewhere that there's a context in which it's more useful to decompose ü to u rather than ue. There is no "safe" lossy transformation that can be done to any language's words, and this is no exception. ASCIIfication has to be accepted as flawed; this issue (an inability to handle non-ASCII labels) is similar to a lot of blog URLs - http://rosuav.blogspot.com/2013/08/20th-international-g-festival-awards.html is talking about the "International G&S Festival" awards, but the URL drops the "&S" part. (If you absolutely have to transmit something losslessly in pure ASCII, you need a scheme like Punycode, which is a lot less clean and readable than a decomposition scheme.) Of course, the better solution is to permit the full Unicode alphabet in identifiers... ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Rustom Mody : > On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote: >> Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel" >> According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel > > [...] > > | if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this > | becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that auctex > | will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'? > > Answer: > | '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in > | references. For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little > | patch. As a Finnish-speaker, I hope that patch doesn't become default behavior. Too many times, we have been victimized by the German conventions. A Finnish-speaker would much rather see Järvenpää => Jarvenpaa Öllölä => Ollola Kärkkäinen => Karkkainen than Järvenpää => Jaervenpaeae Öllölä => Oelloelae Kärkkäinen => Kaerkkaeinen Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:37:00 PM UTC+5:30, Rustom Mody wrote: > You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps. > The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that > I am talking about something quite different. > Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel" > According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel > But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would > justifiably > cause irritation/offense. Curiously I just saw this tex/emacs question/answer elsewhere – particularly amusing the first 'char' of the answer. Question: | I'm a new Emacs/Auctex User. Auctex for Emacs is amazing but | there are some little things could be better. When generating a | section with c-c c-s the label ist generated automatically. But | if there is an german Umlaut in the section title like 'ä' this | becomes just 'a' in the label. Is there any possibility that | auctex will substitute the 'ä' by 'ae' and not by 'a'? Answer: | '�' is not possible, since latex can not handle Umlauts in references. | For 'ae' I'm sure someone is able to provide a little patch. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Fri, 30 May 2014 13:53:06 +0100, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:14:35 PM UTC+5:30, Paul Rudin wrote: Terry Reedy writes: > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. Emacs. How do you do this with emacs? I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc I generally find "M-x grep" sufficient. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:47:33 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > = > Ok, thanks for the answer. > "xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly" > ? Problem is a combination of 1. I am a somewhat clueless noob 2. xetex is emerging technology therefore changing fast and not stable So when something does not work I dont know whether: - its 1 (I am doing something silly) - Or 2 (I have actually hit a bug) I tried writing some small (hello-world) type text using unicode chars rather the old-fashioned \alpha type of locutions. It worked. Added a bunch of more latex packages from apt. It stopped working. -- PS It would help all if you read https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython and dont double-space earlier mails. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 30/05/2014 18:07, Rustom Mody wrote: On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:08:04 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote: On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, jmf wrote: It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach to unicode. Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python 3.0. Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most cases it was faster. Just what do some people want in life, jam on it? I dont see that these two are related¹ You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps. The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that I am talking about something quite different. Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel" According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably cause irritation/offense. Likewise I am talking about the fact that x≠y is prettier than x != y.² In earlier times the former was not an option. Today the latter is drawn from an effectively random subset of unicode only for historical reasons and not anything technologically current. --- ¹ Ok very very distantly related maybe in the sense that since python is a key part of modern linux system admin, and getting out of ASCII-jail needs the infrastructure to work smoothly in the wider unicode world. ² And probably 100s of other such egs, some random sample of which I have listed: http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicoded-python.html I just happen to like fishing :) -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:08:04 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote: > On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote: > > On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, jmf wrote: > > It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! > This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach > to unicode. Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python > 3.0. Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python > 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most > cases it was faster. Just what do some people want in life, jam on it? I dont see that these two are related¹ You are talking about the infrastructure needed for writing unicode apps. The language need not have non-ASCII lexemes for that I am talking about something quite different. Think for example of a German wanting to write "Gödel" According to some conventions (s)he can write Goedel But if that is forced just because of ASCII/US-104/what-have-u it would justifiably cause irritation/offense. Likewise I am talking about the fact that x≠y is prettier than x != y.² In earlier times the former was not an option. Today the latter is drawn from an effectively random subset of unicode only for historical reasons and not anything technologically current. --- ¹ Ok very very distantly related maybe in the sense that since python is a key part of modern linux system admin, and getting out of ASCII-jail needs the infrastructure to work smoothly in the wider unicode world. ² And probably 100s of other such egs, some random sample of which I have listed: http://blog.languager.org/2014/04/unicoded-python.html -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 10:07:21 PM UTC+5:30, Terry Reedy wrote: > On 5/30/2014 12:15 PM, Rustom Mody wrote: > > > And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial > > anagram if written as XƎTEX > > I believe you mean 'pictorial palindrome', which it is! > Heh! Getting woozy it looks! -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 30/05/2014 17:15, Rustom Mody wrote: On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! This can't happen in the Python world until there is a sensible approach to unicode. Ah, but wait a minute, the ball was set rolling with Python 3.0. Then came PEP 393 and the Flexible String Representation in Python 3.3 and some strings came down in size by a factor of 75% and in most cases it was faster. Just what do some people want in life, jam on it? -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/30/2014 12:15 PM, Rustom Mody wrote: And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial anagram if written as XƎTEX I believe you mean 'pictorial palindrome', which it is! -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 8:36:54 PM UTC+5:30, wxjm...@gmail.com wrote: > Out of curiosity. > Are you the Rusi Mody attempting to dive in Xe(La)TeX? Yeah :-) As my blog posts labelled unicode will indicate I am a fan of using unicode in program source: http://blog.languager.org/search/label/Unicode Of course it is not exactly a coincidence that I used APL a bit in my early days. At that time it was great fun though we did not take it seriously.* It is now about time that we stop taking ASCII seriously!! And for those who dont know xetex, its is really xɘtex – a pictorial anagram if written as XƎTEX However in all fairness I should say that I cannot seem to find my way to that promised land yet: - xetex does not quite work whereas pdflatex works smoothly - mathjax is awesome however its firmly latex (not xetex) based --- * And the fact that there are recent implementations including web ones means its by no means dead: http://baruchel.hd.free.fr/apps/apl/ which I think unicode aficionados will enjoy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/30/2014 9:54 AM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote:
Rustom Mody :
3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
How do you do this with emacs?
I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc
To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer:
M-x grep
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e
Complete the grep command:
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e class *.py
and hit ENTER. Feel free to modify the command from grep to egrep, for
example. I often replace -e with -i.
To grep for a pattern in any subdirectory:
M-x grep
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -r assert .
or:
M-x grep-find
Run find (like this): find . -type f -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +
Again, you can modify the command freely:
M-x grep-find
Run find (like this): find . -name '*.py' -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +
Thank you for the answer. I once had things like this memorized, but now
I prefer Idle's dialog, with selected text (if any) and the full path of
the current directory (+/.py) pre-inserted as target and search
directory, and options as radiobuttons (remembered from my last search) ...
You will get a list of hits in a new buffer. You can use the C-x `
command to traverse them in order, but there are many other ways.
and a scrollable window for results ;-).
--
Terry Jan Reedy
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Friday, May 30, 2014 7:24:10 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Rustom Mody wrote: > > > >> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. > > > > How do you do this with emacs? > > I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc > > > > To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer: > > >M-x grep >Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e Well... lgrep is cleverer than grep (in a stupid sort of way :D ) Was just wondering if there were some other tricks -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Rustom Mody :
>> > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re.
>
> How do you do this with emacs?
> I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc
To grep for a pattern in the directory of the active buffer:
M-x grep
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e
Complete the grep command:
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -e class *.py
and hit ENTER. Feel free to modify the command from grep to egrep, for
example. I often replace -e with -i.
To grep for a pattern in any subdirectory:
M-x grep
Run grep (like this): grep -nH -r assert .
or:
M-x grep-find
Run find (like this): find . -type f -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +
Again, you can modify the command freely:
M-x grep-find
Run find (like this): find . -name '*.py' -exec grep -nH -e assert {} +
You will get a list of hits in a new buffer. You can use the C-x `
command to traverse them in order, but there are many other ways.
Marko
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Thursday, May 29, 2014 10:14:35 PM UTC+5:30, Paul Rudin wrote: > Terry Reedy writes: > > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. > Emacs. How do you do this with emacs? I find a menagerie of greppish commands -- rgrep, lgrep, grep-find etc -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Thu, 29 May 2014 15:11:31 -0500, Mark H Harris wrote: > On 5/29/14 11:44 AM, Paul Rudin wrote: >> Terry Reedy writes: >>> I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending >>> have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. >>> >>> 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. >>> >>> 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from >>> the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, >>> opening the file if necessary. >>> >>> 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. >>> >>> 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' >>> to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. >> >> Emacs. >> >> > Emacs is the coolest tech editor out there, by far; however, the very > nature of Emacs (which makes it the coolest) is also unfortunately the > very thing that sucks about it... highly configurable (&extensible), > highly complex, intricately complicated; especially for novices. > > The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he > is "uncomfortable" with IDLE. IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely > because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is > simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even > for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward. > > As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the > modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye > because it had snags early-on). Today IDLE works, has great features, > and actually helps new users get on-board with Python. > > marcus The only thing missing form emacs is a good text editor ;-) -- Chemist who falls in acid will be tripping for weeks. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 2014-05-30 07:21:52 +, Andrea D'Amore said: It aims at providing a beautiful interface, Side note: the text editing is still green. -- Andrea -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 2014-05-29 22:40:36 +, Travis Griggs said: I use either vim or textwrangler for simple one file scripts. Since you're on OS X have a look at Exedore, it's paid but very cheap. It aims at providing a beautiful interface, I fetched the free trial a couple days ago and the job so far is impressively neat. I'm not related to the project, I just found it by accident and want to give Cocoa-credit where credit is due. -- Andrea -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
> On May 28, 2014, at 3:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > > Hello everyone, > > I am new to python. > > I am currently using python 3.3 > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list I use either vim or textwrangler for simple one file scripts. For larger things with multiple files and/or classes, I like pycharm best ( free community edition ). I tried both pydev and wing before that. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Terry Reedy writes: > I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending > have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. You can satisfy such wonderings with a search for the answers to such questions, which is how I got these answers. > 1. Run [Python] code in the editor with a single keypress. That's not very clear. If you mean, run the entire file being edited: yes, Vim and Emacs can do that. I don't use such a feature, because I almost never want to run the *entire* module; I want to test the one function I'm working on at that moment. For that purpose, a unit test is more appropriate. Vim and Emacs also have the feature to run a Python unit test suite with a single key and navigate the output. > 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from > the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, > opening the file if necessary. Yes, any decent programmer's editor will have this, once it is taught how to parse the error output from the language interpreter. For Vim and Emacs, yes, they already know how to capture error output and interactively jump to the referenced locations in the code. They also both have interactive debugger modes, including for Python. > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. > 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' > to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. This is an essential feature of any decent programming editor, and Vim and Emacs certainly have the feature to grep a file tree and navigate the results interactively. -- \ “[Entrenched media corporations will] maintain the status quo, | `\ or die trying. Either is better than actually WORKING for a | _o__) living.” —ringsnake.livejournal.com, 2007-11-12 | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/29/2014 12:51 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. Regarding SciTE: 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. Yes, although for most of what I like to do, it's not appropriate. But if you're developing a script that runs and then terminates, yes, you certainly can. 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. Yes; it recognizes the most common formats used by C compilers, as well as Python's traceback. Pressing F4 repeatedly will cycle you through the output pane, effectively taking you from one step to another in the traceback. (Obviously if you have more than one traceback, it'll go straight from one to another, which won't always be useful.) You can also double-click a line to go straight there. 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. Yes, either using grep itself (fourth point) or using an internal search that's more akin to an old DOS or OS/2 style of search. Either way, the results come up in the output pane, and F4 will cycle through them. 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. As above. These three are all one feature, really. Thank you. This makes your recommendation understandable. > You can type commands in the output pane and they'll be executed; any program output that matches one of its parseable "this file, this line" formats (which is true of 'grep -n') will be picked up. Find in Files (grep) is implemented within Idle, in Python, using re. One of the subprojects of this summer's Idle GSOC student, Saimadhav Heblikar, is to add to Idle something similar to what you describe above. Run an external code analyzer (PyLint/Flake/Checker, whatever...), capture output, and jump to indicated locations. For Idle, the prime intended use would, of course, be for analyzing Python files. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 29/05/2014 21:11, Mark H Harris wrote: The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he is "uncomfortable" with IDLE. IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward. As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye because it had snags early-on). Today IDLE works, has great features, and actually helps new users get on-board with Python. marcus I'll point out (again?) that IDLE is improving all the time thanks to Terry & Co. This explains why http://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0434/ Strangely I've been using Eclipse and Pydev since porting Java to Python some time ago, it really simplified the process. However I'd been thinking of changing and picked IDLE because it's there. Perfectly adequate for my current needs. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/29/14 11:44 AM, Paul Rudin wrote: Terry Reedy writes: I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. Emacs. Emacs is the coolest tech editor out there, by far; however, the very nature of Emacs (which makes it the coolest) is also unfortunately the very thing that sucks about it... highly configurable (&extensible), highly complex, intricately complicated; especially for novices. The OP is looking for an "IDE-like" interactive environment, because he is "uncomfortable" with IDLE. IDLE is THE choice, however ---precisely because IDLE is clean, elegant, and most importantly "simple". It is simple to understand, and it is even simpler to use effectively... even for novice pythonics. IDLE is straight-forward. As Terry pointed out, IDLE is very useful and functional. And in the modern python world is also very stable (IDLE used to get a black eye because it had snags early-on). Today IDLE works, has great features, and actually helps new users get on-board with Python. marcus -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Fri, May 30, 2014 at 2:39 AM, Terry Reedy wrote: > I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all > of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. Regarding SciTE: > 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. Yes, although for most of what I like to do, it's not appropriate. But if you're developing a script that runs and then terminates, yes, you certainly can. > 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any > line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file > if necessary. Yes; it recognizes the most common formats used by C compilers, as well as Python's traceback. Pressing F4 repeatedly will cycle you through the output pane, effectively taking you from one step to another in the traceback. (Obviously if you have more than one traceback, it'll go straight from one to another, which won't always be useful.) You can also double-click a line to go straight there. > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. Yes, either using grep itself (fourth point) or using an internal search that's more akin to an old DOS or OS/2 style of search. Either way, the results come up in the output pane, and F4 will cycle through them. > 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to > the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. As above. These three are all one feature, really. You can type commands in the output pane and they'll be executed; any program output that matches one of its parseable "this file, this line" formats (which is true of 'grep -n') will be picked up. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Terry Reedy writes: > On 5/29/2014 5:41 AM, Wolfgang Maier wrote: >> On 28.05.2014 12:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote: >>> Hello everyone, >>> >>> I am new to python. >>> >>> I am currently using python 3.3 >>> >>> With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > What bothers you the most. > >> Seems like not too many other people on this list share my opinion, but >> let me just say that IDLE is a nice and sufficient (for my purposes) IDE. >> If you're used to eclipse, then stick with it, but I prefer IDLE over >> any text editor although admittedly some of its keyboard shortcuts are >> unusual choices. > > I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of > the following Idle features, that I use constantly. > > 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. > > 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any > line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if > necessary. > > 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. > > 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to > the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. Emacs. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/29/2014 5:41 AM, Wolfgang Maier wrote: On 28.05.2014 12:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote: Hello everyone, I am new to python. I am currently using python 3.3 With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. What bothers you the most. Seems like not too many other people on this list share my opinion, but let me just say that IDLE is a nice and sufficient (for my purposes) IDE. If you're used to eclipse, then stick with it, but I prefer IDLE over any text editor although admittedly some of its keyboard shortcuts are unusual choices. I am curious how many of the editors people have been recommending have all of the following Idle features, that I use constantly. 1. Run code in the editor with a single keypress. 2. Display output and traceback in a window that lets you jump from the any line in the traceback to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. 3. Search unopened files (grep) for a string or re. 4. Display grep output in a window that lets you jump from any 'hit' to the corresponding file and line, opening the file if necessary. -- Terry Jan Reedy -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 28.05.2014 12:43, Sameer Rathoud wrote: Hello everyone, I am new to python. I am currently using python 3.3 With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. Seems like not too many other people on this list share my opinion, but let me just say that IDLE is a nice and sufficient (for my purposes) IDE. If you're used to eclipse, then stick with it, but I prefer IDLE over any text editor although admittedly some of its keyboard shortcuts are unusual choices. Cheers, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Duncan Booth wrote: > Sameer Rathoud wrote: > >> On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:16:41 PM UTC+5:30, Greg Schroeder wrote: >>> > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. >>> >>> >>> >>> Anything that writes text is fine. >>> >>> I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use >>> >>> Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by >>> >>> default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it. >>> >>> >>> >>> Greg >> >> Right now I am looking for ide on windows 7 platform. >> >> Actually, I shouldn't say this, But I am bit use to intellisense and >> on go warnings and error and my text editor (Notepad) doesn't provide >> me that feature . > > If you are used to Visual Studio then you could try PTVS. I have no > experience of it, but http://pytools.codeplex.com/ > >> PTVS is a free, open source plugin that turns Visual Studio into a >> Python IDE. >> >> PTVS supports CPython, IronPython, editing, browsing, Intellisense, >> mixed Python/C++ debugging, remote linux/MacOS debugging, profiling, >> IPython, Django, and cloud computing with client libraries for >> Windows, Linux and MacOS. >> >> Designed, developed, and supported by Microsoft and the community. > > I'm just watching the video from that page. It is impressive just how much of intellisense they have working with PTVS: for example inside a function doing 'find all references' on a local variable that happens to be a method passed in to the function shows you all def lines for methods that are passed as parameters. There's a heck of a lot of type inferencing going on. -- Duncan Booth -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Sameer Rathoud wrote: > On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:16:41 PM UTC+5:30, Greg Schroeder wrote: >> > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. >> >> >> >> Anything that writes text is fine. >> >> I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use >> >> Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by >> >> default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it. >> >> >> >> Greg > > Right now I am looking for ide on windows 7 platform. > > Actually, I shouldn't say this, But I am bit use to intellisense and > on go warnings and error and my text editor (Notepad) doesn't provide > me that feature . If you are used to Visual Studio then you could try PTVS. I have no experience of it, but http://pytools.codeplex.com/ > PTVS is a free, open source plugin that turns Visual Studio into a > Python IDE. > > PTVS supports CPython, IronPython, editing, browsing, Intellisense, > mixed Python/C++ debugging, remote linux/MacOS debugging, profiling, > IPython, Django, and cloud computing with client libraries for > Windows, Linux and MacOS. > > Designed, developed, and supported by Microsoft and the community. -- Duncan Booth -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Thu, May 29, 2014 at 9:12 AM, Rhodri James wrote: > On Wed, 28 May 2014 14:04:55 +0100, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: > >> My IDE is to have three GUI windows open: >> >> * A web browser for searching the Internet. Any browser will do, but I >> prefer Firefox. >> >> * A tabbed editor. I prefer kate (KDE 3 version, not KDE 4), but geany is >> also good. At a pinch gedit will do. kwrite is another good editor, but >> not tabbed, and it lacks some of the features of kate. >> >> * An xterm or console app, again with tabs. I like KDE 3's konsole, but >> any modern, configurable, tabbed console will do. > > > Interesting. I'm entirely the other way; while I'm perfectly happy to use a > tabbed browser, I find tabbed editors and tabbed consoles awful to use. I > want to have three different sections of code side by side on the screen for > comparison. I want to have half a dozen consoles all running different > things, all positioned so I can take in the state of those things at a > glance. I do not want to be wasting time flicking between this and that, > and relying on my relatively poor memory to cache all that information :-) > > Then again, I'm not as bad as one former colleague of mine. He reckons that > the main advantage of higher resolution screens is that he can tile more > 80x40 console windows on them. I'm half way in between. Tabbed web browser, tabbed editor, but all my terminals/consoles are untabbed. I don't use screen/tmux to have multiple consoles in one window, I use them to share a console between two systems (eg ssh to someone else's computer and let him/her watch what I'm doing). When I switch from terminal to terminal, I use their position and size to identify them (most of my terminal windows are 80x24; some are full screen; and if I'm working with avconv, I widen the window to about 110 or 120). Oh, and I use a tabbed MUD client, which (along with my editor) is pinned to all Xfce workspaces. But the web browser is Workspace 3 only. Not sure why I do that. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Programmer's text editor, for Python and everything else (was: IDE for python)
Greg Schroeder writes: > Any gripes against vim with some tweaks? None from me; Vim is a fine programming (and programmable) editor. It is free software, like Python. This is vital for any tool in which one expects to sink an amount of effort. It means no party has privileged access to change it, which ensures that (unlike proprietary software) it will never be held hostage to one party's disinterest or whim. It works the same way on all important operating systems today that programmers will use to write programs. This is, of course, a result of it being free software; anyone motivated to improve the software on a particular platform has full freedom to do so, and return the improvements to the community. It is mature and highly flexible, both of which mean it can handle any important programming task once someone puts in the effort to configure it. And it has a thriving community, which means most of what you want customised has already been done by others. It supports a massive range of text editing tasks, most of which you don't need to know but will be there when your programming tasks expand as they inevitably do. You won't need to re-learn another tool, but only a plug-in for your existing text editor. All of the above are true for Vim and Emacs, which is why I strongly recommend learning one of them well and using it for all the editing you do while programming. https://wiki.python.org/moin/Vim> http://blog.dispatched.ch/2009/05/24/vim-as-python-ide/> https://wiki.python.org/moin/EmacsEditor> http://www.enigmacurry.com/2008/05/09/emacs-as-a-powerful-python-ide/> -- \ “When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold to the masses | `\over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and | _o__)its speaker a raving lunatic.” —Dresden James | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, 2014-05-28 at 22:55 +1000, Chris Angelico wrote:
> On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
> >> > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development.
> >
> > Anything that writes text is fine.
> > I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use
> > Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by
> > default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it.
>
> No. Don't use Notepad for anything! It's easy enough to get a better
> editor. Among its other faults, Notepad:
>
> 1) Has problems with LF line endings (they vanish, and you have hugely
> long lines)
> 2) Puts three junk bytes onto the beginning of a file that it
> considers saved as UTF-8
> 3) Doesn't understand coding cookies, and will happily save something
> in a different encoding like CP-1252 (which it calls "ANSI")
> 4) Guesses encodings on load, giving rise to the famous "Bush hid the
> facts" trick - although this is unlikely to be a problem with
> something of decent size
> 5) Has issues with large files - or at least, it did last time I
> tried; this may no longer be true with Windows 7/8
>
> Default text editors on the Linux distros I've used have been far
> better, but still less than ideal. With Debian Squeeze, I got a gedit
> that bugged me in several ways, which is what pushed me onto SciTE.
> You can certainly start coding with gedit, though. The issues that I
> had with it were relating to heavy-duty usage that I do, where I'm
> basically spending an entire day delving into code and moving stuff
> around. These days, though, I'd rather have one editor on both the
> platforms I use (Windows and Linux, each in multiple variants), as it
> allows me to share configs and comfortable keystrokes. There are
> plenty of cross-platform editors to choose from.
>
> So, I agree with your analysis, as regards gedit ("know exactly what
> you don't like about it"). If it doesn't bug you, use it. But if
> Notepad doesn't bug you, *still don't use it*, because it's like
> driving a car that isn't structurally sound. It might not be you that
> gets hurt by it... or it might not be for quite a while that you see
> the problems... but the pain will happen.
>
> ChrisA
Well, learn something new every day. Any gripes against vim with some
tweaks?
Greg
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, 28 May 2014 14:04:55 +0100, Steven D'Aprano wrote: My IDE is to have three GUI windows open: * A web browser for searching the Internet. Any browser will do, but I prefer Firefox. * A tabbed editor. I prefer kate (KDE 3 version, not KDE 4), but geany is also good. At a pinch gedit will do. kwrite is another good editor, but not tabbed, and it lacks some of the features of kate. * An xterm or console app, again with tabs. I like KDE 3's konsole, but any modern, configurable, tabbed console will do. Interesting. I'm entirely the other way; while I'm perfectly happy to use a tabbed browser, I find tabbed editors and tabbed consoles awful to use. I want to have three different sections of code side by side on the screen for comparison. I want to have half a dozen consoles all running different things, all positioned so I can take in the state of those things at a glance. I do not want to be wasting time flicking between this and that, and relying on my relatively poor memory to cache all that information :-) Then again, I'm not as bad as one former colleague of mine. He reckons that the main advantage of higher resolution screens is that he can tile more 80x40 console windows on them. -- Rhodri James *-* Wildebeest Herder to the Masses -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Sameer Rathoud writes: > I am new to python. > I am currently using python 3.3 Welcome! You're off to a good start, using Python 3 :-) > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. What other programming languages are you familiar with? Learning a programming language is difficult enough. It should *not* entail all the effort of evaluating and learning a language-specific IDE; you should already be using an IDE that supports the new language. I strongly recommend learning *one* IDE which is free software, has good cross-platform and cross-language support, is mature and flexible. My IDE is Bash, Screen, and Emacs: * a terminal, running a GNU Screen session; Screen windows include: * Bash in various Screen windows * Emacs * an automated test runner * a database client You should invest the effort to learn either of Vim or Emacs. They both: * are free software, ensuring there are no barriers to their continued maintenance into the indefinite future; * mature, ensuring they have survived numerous IDE fads and already incorporate a lot of accumulated wisdom; * cross-platform, working the same on every development operating system today; * cross-language, supporting every important programming language and hundreds of minor ones. Learn either one of them, *once*, and you will be able to use the same toolset for any other languages you need. -- \“A free press is one where it's okay to state the conclusion | `\ you're led to by the evidence.” —Bill Moyers | _o__) | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:13:29 PM UTC+5:30, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > Hello everyone, > I am new to python. > I am currently using python 3.3 > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. Im not going to add to the answers. I do suggest you read http://blog.osteele.com/posts/2004/11/ides and decide - where you think you fall in the spectrum - where you would like to be -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
>> On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: >> >>> Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. >> > But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I > have installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses > messages even in trial version. > . > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list I'm using http://wingware.com/downloads/wingide-101. no irritating messages. It's not the full version, but it works well for me. I was using Geany before that and can't remember what Geany did to irritate me lol. Everybody has their favorites. I hope you find an ide that you love. Deb in WA, USA FREE 3D MARINE AQUARIUM SCREENSAVER - Watch dolphins, sharks & orcas on your desktop! Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/marineaquarium -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
I believe in IDE with a complete project structure development and debugging tool. I have to time for a lot of typing. Mi option is Eclipse IDE with PyDev plugin. Thanks On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:24 AM, Wolfgang Keller wrote: > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > There are a lot of IDEs for Python. > > One classic is WingIDE. Available for free is a "101" edition. Runs on > all major operating systems. Implemented itself in Python. > > An editor that's completely implemented in Python is Editra. With > plugins you can turn it into an "almost IDE" as well. > > Sincerely, > > Wolfgang > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- Thanks Ernest Bonat, Ph.D. Senior Software Engineer Senior Business Statistics Analyst Mobile: 503.730.4556 Email: ernest.bo...@gmail.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
> With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. There are a lot of IDEs for Python. One classic is WingIDE. Available for free is a "101" edition. Runs on all major operating systems. Implemented itself in Python. An editor that's completely implemented in Python is Editra. With plugins you can turn it into an "almost IDE" as well. Sincerely, Wolfgang -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 28/05/2014 14:01, Sameer Rathoud wrote: I've had to snip umpteen lines that gg has added so *please* use the mailing list https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list or read and action this https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing double line spacing and single line paragraphs, thanks. one more query, do we have any add-in available for python on visual studio 2010 Python Tools for Visual Studio here http://pytools.codeplex.com/ but I don't think it supports the express edition. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 5/28/14 5:43 AM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: I am currently using python 3.3 With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. I tend to agree with Chris & Steven on this... a good gnu/linux desktop is the best IDE (debian, xfce, terminals galore) Early in my unix career I learned VI (now VIM) and find that for most editing jobs (even from remote) --- can't be beat. OTOH, I would highly recommend getting comfortable with IDLE; especially if you're using 3.3+ / the modern IDLE works, is stable, and has many advantages over just a tabbed editor. It is highly configurable, simple and elegant, not to mention that its written against tkinter with pure python. Today I'm using IDLE for python development almost exclusively. You no doubt are getting comfortable with python's indentation code blocking delimiting anomaly. IDLE helps with that. Yes, you can use tabs, but you shouldn't (for several reasons, I spare you). Typically the indentation is 4 spaces; IDLE handles this for you automatically (mostly) and allows the 4 spaces to be reconfigured. The only really irritating aspect of IDLE which I had to get used to was that the interactive REPL provides no way to clear the screen. Its debugging capabilities (and undo levels) more than make up for that tiny small snag. You will come to appreciate the class path browser, recent files, &c. The default highlight colors are well chosen (they may be changed) and the window size and fonts may be changed. I think IDLE looks good. Its clean, clear, and functional. I guess what I'm encouraging you to do is be patient with IDLE until you get a grip on it. There's more to it than meets the eye, at first. marcus -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On May 28, 2014, at 6:43 AM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to python. > > I am currently using python 3.3 > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list There are several comparison tables and reviews of Python IDEs on the web. You should check the following and see what suits you best: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_integrated_development_environments#Python http://www.pythoncentral.io/comparison-of-python-ides-development/ https://wiki.python.org/moin/IntegratedDevelopmentEnvironments http://stackoverflow.com/questions/81584/what-ide-to-use-for-python http://pedrokroger.net/choosing-best-python-ide/ http://spyced.blogspot.com/2005/09/review-of-6-python-ides.html Good Luck, -Bill PS: As it happens, I use (and like) Wing IDE, but have NO relation to the development company, other than as a satisfied user. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:05:08 PM UTC+5:30, Mark Lawrence wrote: > On 28/05/2014 12:31, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > > > On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:21:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby > > wrote: > > >> On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > > >> > > >>> Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> I think major IDEs in the place have their Python integration. > > >> > > >> Did you make some search and tried each one? > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> With just the information you provided, every existing IDE is OK. > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> - What didnt you like in IDLE? > > >> > > >> - What IDE do you use for anything else thant Python? > > > > > > for C++ and C# development I prefer visual studio and for C++ try outs even > > codeblock is ok > > > > > > For Java I use eclipse. > > > > Get the pydev plugin for eclipse. Pydev uses pylint to flag up errors > > or warnings as you type, saves hours of work. > > > > > > > > But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I > > have installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses messages > > even in trial version. > > > > > > I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. > > > > > > > Also would you please use the mailing list > > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list or read and action > > this https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us > > seeing double line spacing and single line paragraphs, thanks. > > > > -- > > My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask > > what you can do for our language. > > > > Mark Lawrence > > > > --- > > This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus > protection is active. > > http://www.avast.com Hi, Thanks a lot everyone, for your valuable suggestion. I have successfully plugged-in PyDev and it is working great for me. Once again thanks a lot -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, 28 May 2014 03:43:29 -0700, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to python. > > I am currently using python 3.3 > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. What operating system are you using? The best IDE for Python is Unix or Linux: http://blog.sanctum.geek.nz/series/unix-as-ide/ My IDE is to have three GUI windows open: * A web browser for searching the Internet. Any browser will do, but I prefer Firefox. * A tabbed editor. I prefer kate (KDE 3 version, not KDE 4), but geany is also good. At a pinch gedit will do. kwrite is another good editor, but not tabbed, and it lacks some of the features of kate. * An xterm or console app, again with tabs. I like KDE 3's konsole, but any modern, configurable, tabbed console will do. If I'm working collaboratively with others, I'll also have an IRC client open, for chatting. Or being distracted, more likely. I'll often also have a Unicode character selector open, such as KCharSelect or Gnome Charmap. I open a few tabs in the console: * At least one tab running in a Python interactive interpreter, for testing small snippets of code, running the Python interactive help() system, and so forth. * At least one tab for running my code, or my unit tests. * Another tab for managing files, including source control (hg or git). Some people like to do all of this from a single tab, using the screen command to manage virtual tabs. I am not one of those people. For the same reason, I prefer GUI editors over emacs or vim. -- Steven D'Aprano http://import-that.dreamwidth.org/ -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 6:26:46 PM UTC+5:30, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:16:41 PM UTC+5:30, Greg Schroeder wrote: > > > > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > > > > > > > > > > > Anything that writes text is fine. > > > > > > I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use > > > > > > Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by > > > > > > default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it. > > > > > > > > > > > > Greg > > > > Right now I am looking for ide on windows 7 platform. > > > > Actually, I shouldn't say this, But I am bit use to intellisense and on go > warnings and error and my text editor (Notepad) doesn't provide me that > feature . one more query, do we have any add-in available for python on visual studio 2010 -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 5:16:41 PM UTC+5:30, Greg Schroeder wrote: > > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > > > Anything that writes text is fine. > > I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use > > Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by > > default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it. > > > > Greg Right now I am looking for ide on windows 7 platform. Actually, I shouldn't say this, But I am bit use to intellisense and on go warnings and error and my text editor (Notepad) doesn't provide me that feature . -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:46 PM, Greg Schroeder wrote:
>> > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development.
>
> Anything that writes text is fine.
> I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use
> Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by
> default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it.
No. Don't use Notepad for anything! It's easy enough to get a better
editor. Among its other faults, Notepad:
1) Has problems with LF line endings (they vanish, and you have hugely
long lines)
2) Puts three junk bytes onto the beginning of a file that it
considers saved as UTF-8
3) Doesn't understand coding cookies, and will happily save something
in a different encoding like CP-1252 (which it calls "ANSI")
4) Guesses encodings on load, giving rise to the famous "Bush hid the
facts" trick - although this is unlikely to be a problem with
something of decent size
5) Has issues with large files - or at least, it did last time I
tried; this may no longer be true with Windows 7/8
Default text editors on the Linux distros I've used have been far
better, but still less than ideal. With Debian Squeeze, I got a gedit
that bugged me in several ways, which is what pushed me onto SciTE.
You can certainly start coding with gedit, though. The issues that I
had with it were relating to heavy-duty usage that I do, where I'm
basically spending an entire day delving into code and moving stuff
around. These days, though, I'd rather have one editor on both the
platforms I use (Windows and Linux, each in multiple variants), as it
allows me to share configs and comfortable keystrokes. There are
plenty of cross-platform editors to choose from.
So, I agree with your analysis, as regards gedit ("know exactly what
you don't like about it"). If it doesn't bug you, use it. But if
Notepad doesn't bug you, *still don't use it*, because it's like
driving a car that isn't structurally sound. It might not be you that
gets hurt by it... or it might not be for quite a while that you see
the problems... but the pain will happen.
ChrisA
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
> > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. Anything that writes text is fine. I recommend the standard text editor for your OS (Notepad if you use Windows, Textedit on Mac, whatever is on your GNU/Linux distro by default) unless you know exactly what you don't like about it. Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 28/05/2014 12:31, Sameer Rathoud wrote: On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:21:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. I think major IDEs in the place have their Python integration. Did you make some search and tried each one? With just the information you provided, every existing IDE is OK. - What didnt you like in IDLE? - What IDE do you use for anything else thant Python? for C++ and C# development I prefer visual studio and for C++ try outs even codeblock is ok For Java I use eclipse. Get the pydev plugin for eclipse. Pydev uses pylint to flag up errors or warnings as you type, saves hours of work. But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I have installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses messages even in trial version. I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. Also would you please use the mailing list https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list or read and action this https://wiki.python.org/moin/GoogleGroupsPython to prevent us seeing double line spacing and single line paragraphs, thanks. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Hi Sameer, Try pycharm, ninja ide, wings ide .. These are light and will help you to get started. Later on you can switch to vim which has many plugins for python. Also feel free to take a look at this link on stackoverflow comparing different features . http://stackoverflow.com/questions/81584/what-ide-to-use-for-python Thanks. On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 5:01 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:21:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby > wrote: > > On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > > > > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > > > > > > > I think major IDEs in the place have their Python integration. > > > > Did you make some search and tried each one? > > > > > > > > With just the information you provided, every existing IDE is OK. > > > > > > > > - What didnt you like in IDLE? > > > > - What IDE do you use for anything else thant Python? > > for C++ and C# development I prefer visual studio and for C++ try outs > even codeblock is ok > > For Java I use eclipse. > > But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I > have installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses messages > even in trial version. > > I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list > -- *HAVE A NICE DAY * Prashanth -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 9:31 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > for C++ and C# development I prefer visual studio and for C++ try outs even > codeblock is ok > > For Java I use eclipse. > > But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I have > installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses messages even > in trial version. > > I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. Yep, so you're accustomed to an IDE. But just try a good editor like SciTE or Geany or emacs (or ... or ... or ...), and see how you like it. As an added bonus, you can get to know one editor and use it for everything, rather than having separate IDEs for separate languages. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wednesday, May 28, 2014 4:21:22 PM UTC+5:30, Mihamina Rakotomandimby wrote: > On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. > > > > I think major IDEs in the place have their Python integration. > > Did you make some search and tried each one? > > > > With just the information you provided, every existing IDE is OK. > > > > - What didnt you like in IDLE? > > - What IDE do you use for anything else thant Python? for C++ and C# development I prefer visual studio and for C++ try outs even codeblock is ok For Java I use eclipse. But first time I am trying python. I was trying some UI with python. I have installed wingide. But i didn't liked it because for licenses messages even in trial version. I was searching for spyder, but didn't got any helpful installable. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, May 28, 2014 at 8:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > I am currently using python 3.3 > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. You don't really need an IDE, generally. A good text editor - I use SciTE, but as alister said, there are as many viable answers as there are posters - is all you need. Back when I wrote code in Q-BASIC, VX-REXX, and then C and C++, I used IDEs, but even then the main features I used were just smart text editors. My preferred "IDE", these days, is Debian Linux with Xfce, which gives me a convenient workspace in which to run SciTE plus a few dozen terminal windows. One of them will be dedicated to source control (git, hg, or whatever the current project uses); some of those do have GUI interfaces or editor integration, but I find it easiest to use the command line. Another generally is for running the program, unless it's one that permanently stays running (or is being remotely manipulated via a TCP/IP link). Then, depending on what I'm doing, I might have a few more... maybe a music player (or maybe that's VLC, invoked via the Yosemite Project), maybe a few man pages, whatever else I need. It's highly unlikely that anyone's written an IDE that does everything I could possibly want, so I just use the computer's desktop as that IDE. It can do anything! :) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 05/28/2014 01:43 PM, Sameer Rathoud wrote: Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. I think major IDEs in the place have their Python integration. Did you make some search and tried each one? With just the information you provided, every existing IDE is OK. - What didnt you like in IDLE? - What IDE do you use for anything else thant Python? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Wed, 28 May 2014 03:43:29 -0700, Sameer Rathoud wrote: > Hello everyone, > > I am new to python. > > I am currently using python 3.3 > > With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. > > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. there Are plenty I use Geany a lightweight cross platform editor but you will probably get as (at least as )many different answers as there are posters here :-) -- Time is the most valuable thing a man can spend. -- Theophrastus -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Sameer Rathoud : > Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. emacs Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
答复: IDE for python
IPython for interactive testing. Aptana or PyDev + eclipse as IDE -邮件原件- 发件人: Python-list [mailto:python-list-bounces+scrappedprince.li=gmail@python.org] 代表 Sameer Rathoud 发送时间: 2014年5月28日 18:43 收件人: python-list@python.org 主题: IDE for python Hello everyone, I am new to python. I am currently using python 3.3 With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
IDE for python
Hello everyone, I am new to python. I am currently using python 3.3 With python I got IDLE, but I am not very comfortable with this. Please suggest, if we have any free ide for python development. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
ANN: Zeus - Windows IDE for Python
The latest Zeus IDE Version 3.97o is now available: http://www.zeusedit.com/python.html This latest Zeus release adds improved Python debugger support. Other Pyhon language features include syntax highlighting, code completion, smart indenting, class browsing and code folding. Zeus is also fully scriptable in Python. NOTE: Zeus is shareware, runs natively on the Windows platform and can be run on Linux using Wine. Jussi Jumppanen Author: Zeus Editor -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Jonathan Hartley writes: > I'd like to offer the group the anecdote of the great Resolver IDE > migration. […] It's great to see something refreshing and new — data beyond a single person's subjective experience! — come out of a topic that looked like it was just going to re-hash the same tired topic. Thank you. -- \ “What I resent is that the range of your vision should be the | `\ limit of my action.” —Henry James | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Nov 16, 1:05 am, Jonathan Hartley wrote: > Then, after about a year, a curious thing happened. One by one, in > entirely independent decisions, almost all developers decided to > migrate to either Emacs or Vi.* > > Each person decided that the fancy features of their IDE wasn't as > useful to them as having a flexible, powerful and lightweight editor > which can easily be scripted to provide whatever ad-hoc features they > need. > > I regard this as an example of the way pairing spreads knowledge. That's the best justification for pair programming I've seen yet. Carl Banks -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
sturlamolden schrieb: On 15 Nov, 18:09, Peng Yu wrote: There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? There is a plug-in to develop (amd debug) Python using MS Visual Studio. It works with IronPython and CPython. There is the PyDev plug-in for Eclipse. There is Komodo from ActiveState. There is KDevelop in KDE4. Which is better? I don't know. My impression is that Python development does noe need an IDE like e.g. C++ development do. There is no build process, which takes the major advantage of the IDE away. I am fine with a editor like IDLE or Kate. For more than ten years I had the same opinion. I found that a very lightweight "IDE" like PythonWin is sufficient for me together with print statements and the built-in post-mortem debugger for debugging. But then, last year I had to find a tricky bug in my GUI code (wxPython) and thought that for this problem a debugger would be helpful. So I gave the Wing IDE with it's debugger a try and have been using it since then. Even though an IDE is not an absolute must, I found that my productivity increased a lot (25%?) and I would not want to miss: - code completion - powerful debugger (even if you only use the post-mortem debugger it will save you a lot of time compared to pdb.pm() as it takes only a mouse click to move to the exception point in the editor instead of looking at the line number and then find the same point in the editor...) - Mercurial integration - PyFlakes integration Regards, Dietmar -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 16 Nov, 10:05, Jonathan Hartley wrote: > As far as I can make out, TextPad has only two features, syntax > highlighting and the ability to define a 'make' command, and a regex > that is used to extract filenames and line-numbers from the resulting > output of that make command. These are, it turns out, sufficient to > transform a program that would otherwise simply be 'Notepad' into an > entirely credible development environment. When working with Java or C++ I like and IDE like KDevelop because it makes makefiles for me. And when debugging it is easier to insert break points graphically than use gdb from the terminal. But apart from that, I prefer a tiny editor like Kate (yes I know, call me a heretic for not using emacs). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Nov 16, 5:09 am, sturlamolden wrote: > On 15 Nov, 18:09, Peng Yu wrote: > > > There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and > > cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. > > > Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? > > There is a plug-in to develop (amd debug) Python using MS Visual > Studio. It works with IronPython and CPython. > > There is the PyDev plug-in for Eclipse. > > There is Komodo from ActiveState. > > There is KDevelop in KDE4. > > Which is better? I don't know. > > My impression is that Python development does noe need an IDE like > e.g. C++ development do. There is no build process, which takes the > major advantage of the IDE away. I am fine with a editor like IDLE or > Kate. I'd like to offer the group the anecdote of the great Resolver IDE migration. Developers at Resolver, where I work, choose their own IDE. Being developers, that meant every single person chose a different one. We had them all. Which turned out, slightly unexpectedly, to be just fine. We pair on all production code. So this meant we all spent a lot of time sitting at each other's desks. We soon all became pretty familiar with each other's environments - there's nothing like 8 hours a day of hands-on usage, coupled with sitting right next to a bone-fide expert to get you up to speed pretty quick. I even learned a little Emacs, holy cow! Occasionally, after seeing the details of how well some other IDE worked, developers would switch from one to another. Then, after about a year, a curious thing happened. One by one, in entirely independent decisions, almost all developers decided to migrate to either Emacs or Vi.* Each person decided that the fancy features of their IDE wasn't as useful to them as having a flexible, powerful and lightweight editor which can easily be scripted to provide whatever ad-hoc features they need. I regard this as an example of the way pairing spreads knowledge. * I say 'most developers' - there were two notable exceptions: Michael Foord, who's prodigious contributions are legend, who likes Wing, and Will Reade, our tame brainiac, responsible for the exceedingly clever 'IronClad' open-source project, who likes the uncomplicated simplicity of TextPad. As far as I can make out, TextPad has only two features, syntax highlighting and the ability to define a 'make' command, and a regex that is used to extract filenames and line-numbers from the resulting output of that make command. These are, it turns out, sufficient to transform a program that would otherwise simply be 'Notepad' into an entirely credible development environment. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On 15 Nov, 18:09, Peng Yu wrote: > There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and > cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. > > Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? There is a plug-in to develop (amd debug) Python using MS Visual Studio. It works with IronPython and CPython. There is the PyDev plug-in for Eclipse. There is Komodo from ActiveState. There is KDevelop in KDE4. Which is better? I don't know. My impression is that Python development does noe need an IDE like e.g. C++ development do. There is no build process, which takes the major advantage of the IDE away. I am fine with a editor like IDLE or Kate. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Peng Yu schrieb: On Nov 15, 11:15 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" wrote: Peng Yu schrieb: There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/... I suggest you use your google foo that you just showed to search in this group for the numerous discussions about emacs, vi, eclipse+pydev, wing ide, komodo and notepad. I see too many threads. But I don't any of them give me a complete comparison between different choices. If you are familiar with different choices, would you please give me some advices? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=IDE&qt_g=Search+this+group Again: read the threads. They discuss the various aspects. They arose because of the same question asked as yours. If you don't find in them what you are looking for, chances are hight that you won't get it. This is very much a question of personal preferences, not of feature-matrices and strict metrics. So go, read, and them make an informed choice on what at least to try. Stick with what you prefer. And given your track record in this group here, I assume regardless of *what* beautiful scheme of explaining various IDEs and their respective merits, they all fall short of your "unique" way of doing things. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
On Nov 15, 11:15 am, "Diez B. Roggisch" wrote: > Peng Yu schrieb: > > > There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and > > cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. > > > Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? > > >http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/... > > I suggest you use your google foo that you just showed to search in this > group for the numerous discussions about emacs, vi, eclipse+pydev, wing > ide, komodo and notepad. I see too many threads. But I don't any of them give me a complete comparison between different choices. If you are familiar with different choices, would you please give me some advices? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/search?group=comp.lang.python&q=IDE&qt_g=Search+this+group -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python
Peng Yu schrieb: There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/4b3300d10285ae2b/e934bd5b9f2d0f8c?lnk=gst&q=IDE#e934bd5b9f2d0f8c I suggest you use your google foo that you just showed to search in this group for the numerous discussions about emacs, vi, eclipse+pydev, wing ide, komodo and notepad. Diez -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
IDE for python
There had been some discussion on IDE. But I'm not sure what pros and cons of each choice. Current, I'm using vim and ctags. Could somebody give some advices on choosing the best IDE for me? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.python/browse_thread/thread/4b3300d10285ae2b/e934bd5b9f2d0f8c?lnk=gst&q=IDE#e934bd5b9f2d0f8c -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Sat, Sep 26, 2009 at 12:58 AM, Dave Angel wrote: > Threader Slash wrote: > >> -- Forwarded message -- >>> From: J Sisson >>> To: Nobody >>> Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:18:03 -0500 >>> Subject: Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic >>> >>> >>> On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Nobody wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>>> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 05:27:59 -0700, r wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>>> > Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input >>>> >>>> >>>>> from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to >>>>> relate to their end users. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> You're assuming that there is some "right" answer which is appropriate >>>> for >>>> all users. There isn't. >>>> >>>> >>>> >>> I worked for a company that had a team composed of graphic artists, QA >>> types, etc...that did nothing but draw up GUI's, show them to customers, >>> revise them, write up runnable "dummies" of the approved GUI's, performed >>> usability studies with our customers using the dummy GUI's, and finally >>> handed the GUI's over to dev so they could put in the guts to make it "do >>> stuff". >>> >>> "Bugs" or "Cases" involving the GUI needing revision because a button >>> needed to be moved for usability were *extremely* rare, and the GUI >>> didn't >>> require an additional toolset that allowed end users to tweak them. >>> >>> >>> >>> >> My favorite IDE : Eclipse >> >> http://pydev.org/download.html >> >> >> http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-eclipse-visualstudio >> >> http://www.eclipse.org >> >> Of course you have also the Mono: >> http://monodevelop.com >> >> Cheers.|:0), >> >> >> > But where's the GUI designer for Eclipse/Python? That's what the OP was > asking about. > > GUI builders I've heard of, but not evaluated include: > > Boa > wxGlade > wxFormBuilder > Wing IDE > > DaveA > > Hi Dave, Sorry, I just read and answer your post quickly... so, here again about the IDE development for Python http://pydev.org/download.html http://pydev.org/screenshots.html Also, please read and follow instructions: http://pydev.org/manual_101_root.html http://pydev.org/manual_101_project_conf2.html About IDE you can install the Qt 2.5 or 2.6 SDK, it comes with the Qt Designer. You just generates the design you want, then you save it as myGUI.ui. The only point is, if you are working on Windows with Python Qt, when you have to run on console the command pyuic4 that will generate your ui_myGUI.py source file to link it to your system, it doesn't work. After reading and googling around, I find out that aparently there is a bug on it for the free edtion of Qt for Windows. Hope that it can be fixed soon. This means, that the GUI has to done code by yourself using Qt programming. The Qt Design should just work fine for Linux, because I didn't hear about any similar problem. For Qt C++ on Windows it is apparently working -- but I didn't try yet: http://labs.trolltech.com/blogs/2007/07/11/develop-qt-applications-in-eclipse I hope this help. cheers. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
Threader Slash wrote: -- Forwarded message -- From: J Sisson To: Nobody Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:18:03 -0500 Subject: Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Nobody wrote: On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 05:27:59 -0700, r wrote: > Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to relate to their end users. You're assuming that there is some "right" answer which is appropriate for all users. There isn't. I worked for a company that had a team composed of graphic artists, QA types, etc...that did nothing but draw up GUI's, show them to customers, revise them, write up runnable "dummies" of the approved GUI's, performed usability studies with our customers using the dummy GUI's, and finally handed the GUI's over to dev so they could put in the guts to make it "do stuff". "Bugs" or "Cases" involving the GUI needing revision because a button needed to be moved for usability were *extremely* rare, and the GUI didn't require an additional toolset that allowed end users to tweak them. My favorite IDE : Eclipse http://pydev.org/download.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-eclipse-visualstudio http://www.eclipse.org Of course you have also the Mono: http://monodevelop.com Cheers.|:0), But where's the GUI designer for Eclipse/Python? That's what the OP was asking about. GUI builders I've heard of, but not evaluated include: Boa wxGlade wxFormBuilder Wing IDE DaveA -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
IDE for python similar to visual basic
> -- Forwarded message -- > From: J Sisson > To: Nobody > Date: Thu, 24 Sep 2009 19:18:03 -0500 > Subject: Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic > > > On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Nobody wrote: > >> On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 05:27:59 -0700, r wrote: >> > > >> > Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input >> > from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to >> > relate to their end users. >> >> You're assuming that there is some "right" answer which is appropriate for >> all users. There isn't. >> > > I worked for a company that had a team composed of graphic artists, QA > types, etc...that did nothing but draw up GUI's, show them to customers, > revise them, write up runnable "dummies" of the approved GUI's, performed > usability studies with our customers using the dummy GUI's, and finally > handed the GUI's over to dev so they could put in the guts to make it "do > stuff". > > "Bugs" or "Cases" involving the GUI needing revision because a button > needed to be moved for usability were *extremely* rare, and the GUI didn't > require an additional toolset that allowed end users to tweak them. > > My favorite IDE : Eclipse http://pydev.org/download.html http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/opensource/library/os-eclipse-visualstudio http://www.eclipse.org Of course you have also the Mono: http://monodevelop.com Cheers.|:0), -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Sun, Sep 13, 2009 at 6:25 AM, Nobody wrote: > On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 05:27:59 -0700, r wrote: > > > Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input > > from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to > > relate to their end users. > > You're assuming that there is some "right" answer which is appropriate for > all users. There isn't. > I worked for a company that had a team composed of graphic artists, QA types, etc...that did nothing but draw up GUI's, show them to customers, revise them, write up runnable "dummies" of the approved GUI's, performed usability studies with our customers using the dummy GUI's, and finally handed the GUI's over to dev so they could put in the guts to make it "do stuff". "Bugs" or "Cases" involving the GUI needing revision because a button needed to be moved for usability were *extremely* rare, and the GUI didn't require an additional toolset that allowed end users to tweak them. -- Computers are like air conditioners... They quit working when you open Windows. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
> You can also try Eclipse + PyDev. It's not the same as Visual Studio, and I > am not sure about the GUI builder, but I think it's what you want. I really like Eclipse + Pydev. It is not a GUI builder at all but it has a nice debugger, code completion and that kind of thing. And its free! Brian -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
In article , Nobody wrote: >On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:56:17 +, Albert van der Horst wrote: >> >> In view of the above this is not quite the correct way to put it. >> >> What I resent is that it leads to a non-professional attitude >> of the graphical part. Programming is over, lets now kludge >> some screens together. No. The graphics part has to be carefully >> designed, carefully tested, and carefully "written", even if it >> is using a graphical tool. So, yes please, *do* create a GUI >> "programmatically". > >My view is that the program should provide functionality without >unnecessarily dictating the way in which that functionality is used. >Essentially, it's an issue of "loose coupling". > >The interface really should be configurable by the user according to their >needs. The code doesn't need to *know* the position or dimensions of >a widget, or its label or colour or spacing, let alone dictate them. > >In most cases, the code shouldn't even get to dictate that specific >widgets even exist. Rather, it should provide actions which can >be bound to buttons, menu items and/or accelerators as the user chooses. I don't necessarily disagree. But how does this work in practice? I have a totally programmable editor (I do, I'm using it right no.) I'm able to redefine commands to the point that I have no longer a command to quit the program, and even have no longer a possibility to define a new key-combination to quit the program. The hacker who wrote it would say: "don't do that". Combined with my habit to switch the Caps lock and control keys and use the editor full-screen, someone else really gets nowhere. What if I prefer to have the gaz throttle and the clutch pedal of my car switched. Is that a good idea? Bottomline, "let the user choose" must not be an excuse for us, where we are not able to propose a good choice. (You may read the subject note-eater on my website.) Groetjes Albert -- -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. alb...@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Fri, 11 Sep 2009 05:27:59 -0700, r wrote: >> I'm saying that the user understands their workflow and environment better >> than the application's programmers. The user should be able to decide >> which menu items are shown and where, which buttons are shown and where, >> etc. The code doesn't need to know this level of detail, let alone dictate >> it. > > I completely disagree with this idea of user "customization" of the > GUI. Sounds more like adolescent accessorizing to me. How is changing > the location of a button, or entry, or whatever, actually going to > make workflow more easier? For a start, removing any buttons which the user won't be needing eliminates the risk of them clicking on them by accident. Beyond that, there is an advantage to placing buttons (etc) in similar locations to other applications which the user uses (or was using prior to migrating). In some cases, the reduction in mouse motion which can be obtained by placing specific buttons close together can make significant difference. Sometimes those buttons aren't all part of the same application (I know of people who place the Windows taskbar at the top of the screen simply because it's closer to most applications' toolbar and menubar). If you have two windows side-by-side, there's a benefit to having the left-hand window's controls running down its right-hand edge and vice-versa, so both sets of controls are all in one cluster. For mouse-centric applications, keyboard shortcuts aren't always a solution; particularly for left-handed users, as shortcuts are normally optimised for right-handed users (i.e. common shortcuts use the LHS of the keyboard, on the assumption that the right hand is on the mouse). > Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input > from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to > relate to their end users. You're assuming that there is some "right" answer which is appropriate for all users. There isn't. > Would a mechanic give you a screw driver so you could adjust the fuel/ > air ratio yourself? If he did i would never take my car back again! > Just reeks of incompetence!! If the manufacturer took your approach, there wouldn't be any screw. Just a fixed setting for all climates and altitudes, urban and rural, flat and hilly. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On 8/30/09 1:48 PM, r wrote: Hello qwe rty, I remember my first days with GUI programming and thinking to myself; how on earth can i write GUI code without a MS style GUI builder? Not to long after that i was coding up some pretty spectacular GUI's from nothing more than source code and loving it. [Warning: the following is only opinion!] I think a point and click GUI builder (although some may disagree) is actually detrimental to your programming skills. The ability to visualize the GUI only from the source code as you read it, is as important to a programmer as site reading sheet music is to a musician. And I like to program with the training wheels off. Whether done in code or with a visual tool, good, effective GUI design is not easy. However you get there is up to you. In my case (using Tkinter), I've found that it's faster and better to write the code by hand. Code in the text editor, the terminal for testing: simple and easy. Adding another tool to the mix just makes things more complicated. :-) Some may find it's easier to use a GUI builder, and if that's the case, some good ones have been recommended. In case anyone thinks the words "Tkinter" and "good, effective GUI design" shouldn't be in the same paragraph, please see http://www.codebykevin.com/phynchronicity.html... -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
r wrote: > On Sep 11, 7:08 am, Nobody wrote: > (snip) >> I'm saying that the user understands their workflow and environment better >> than the application's programmers. The user should be able to decide >> which menu items are shown and where, which buttons are shown and where, >> etc. The code doesn't need to know this level of detail, let alone dictate >> it. > > I completely disagree with this idea of user "customization" of the > GUI. Sounds more like adolescent accessorizing to me. How is changing > the location of a button, or entry, or whatever, actually going to > make workflow more easier? Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input > from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to > relate to their end users. However i know some out there like the > "styles" and "skins" crap, which is a different animal altogether than > what you speak of. > > Would a mechanic give you a screw driver so you could adjust the fuel/ > air ratio yourself? If he did i would never take my car back again! > Just reeks of incompetence!! > > Only qualified persons should fix cars, same for software! > Speaking for backyard mechanics everywhere, I sometimes want the screwdriver. :-) --David -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
> > > The interface really should be configurable by the user according to their > needs. The code doesn't need to *know* the position or dimensions of > a widget, or its label or colour or spacing, let alone dictate them. > Perhaps...but the user needs a framework in order to understand the functions they find themselves in charge of once they've initiated a program. As the designer, the programmer is best placed to provide that framework, because they know, or they should know, what it is (something I don't think can be taken for granted). Therefore, fundamental decisions about the UI should be left to the programmer. If customisation is possible, all well and good, but it should not be the main goal of a UI. Usability principles should be. > In most cases, the code shouldn't even get to dictate that specific > widgets even exist. Rather, it should provide actions which can > be bound to buttons, menu items and/or accelerators as the user chooses. > That would be an API. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Sep 11, 7:08 am, Nobody wrote: (snip) > I'm saying that the user understands their workflow and environment better > than the application's programmers. The user should be able to decide > which menu items are shown and where, which buttons are shown and where, > etc. The code doesn't need to know this level of detail, let alone dictate > it. I completely disagree with this idea of user "customization" of the GUI. Sounds more like adolescent accessorizing to me. How is changing the location of a button, or entry, or whatever, actually going to make workflow more easier? Sounds like "somebody" failed to get input from their users at design time. Or "somebody" has the inability to relate to their end users. However i know some out there like the "styles" and "skins" crap, which is a different animal altogether than what you speak of. Would a mechanic give you a screw driver so you could adjust the fuel/ air ratio yourself? If he did i would never take my car back again! Just reeks of incompetence!! Only qualified persons should fix cars, same for software! -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 18:04:40 -0700, r wrote: >> >It also allows the GUI to be edited by without requiring any programming >> >knowledge. This eliminates the need for the GUI designer to be familiar >> >with the programming language used (or any programming language), and >> >allows customisation by end users. > > and this is why M$ interfaces suck eggs! This whole "let's just slap > together something that works even if kludgy" attitude begets the > horrible UI's of which i speak. Are you saying that programmers have > no ability to design elegant UI's? Or are you saying GUI's are not > *that* important? I'm saying that the user understands their workflow and environment better than the application's programmers. The user should be able to decide which menu items are shown and where, which buttons are shown and where, etc. The code doesn't need to know this level of detail, let alone dictate it. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Mon, 07 Sep 2009 23:56:17 +, Albert van der Horst wrote: >>The main advantage of a GUI builder is that it helps prevent you from >>hard-coding the GUI into the program. You could get the same effect by >>coding a UIL/XRC/etc file manually, but a GUI builder tends to force it. > > A GUI builder results in hard coding the GUI. The code only resides > elsewhere. Data (e.g. a UIL or XRC file) isn't code. But "hard-coding" is more a question of whether you can realistically change the data without changing the code. If the code craps out due to minor changes to the data, there isn't much advantage of having a separate data file. >>Creating a GUI programmatically is almost always the wrong approach. It >>tends to be adopted due to a path of least resistance, rather than any >>affirmative reason. > > In view of the above this is not quite the correct way to put it. > > What I resent is that it leads to a non-professional attitude > of the graphical part. Programming is over, lets now kludge > some screens together. No. The graphics part has to be carefully > designed, carefully tested, and carefully "written", even if it > is using a graphical tool. So, yes please, *do* create a GUI > "programmatically". My view is that the program should provide functionality without unnecessarily dictating the way in which that functionality is used. Essentially, it's an issue of "loose coupling". The interface really should be configurable by the user according to their needs. The code doesn't need to *know* the position or dimensions of a widget, or its label or colour or spacing, let alone dictate them. In most cases, the code shouldn't even get to dictate that specific widgets even exist. Rather, it should provide actions which can be bound to buttons, menu items and/or accelerators as the user chooses. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
On Sep 7, 6:56 pm, Albert van der Horst wrote: > In article , > > Nobody wrote: > >On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:48:24 -0700, r wrote: > > >> I think a point and click GUI builder (although some may disagree) is > >> actually detrimental to your programming skills. The ability to > >> visualize the GUI only from the source code as you read it, is as > >> important to a programmer as site reading sheet music is to a > >> musician. And I like to program with the training wheels off. > > >The main advantage of a GUI builder is that it helps prevent you from > >hard-coding the GUI into the program. You could get the same effect by > >coding a UIL/XRC/etc file manually, but a GUI builder tends to force it. > > A GUI builder results in hard coding the GUI. The code only resides > elsewhere. +1 > >It also allows the GUI to be edited by without requiring any programming > >knowledge. This eliminates the need for the GUI designer to be familiar > >with the programming language used (or any programming language), and > >allows customisation by end users. and this is why M$ interfaces suck eggs! This whole "let's just slap together something that works even if kludgy" attitude begets the horrible UI's of which i speak. Are you saying that programmers have no ability to design elegant UI's? Or are you saying GUI's are not *that* important? > What I resent is that it leads to a non-professional attitude > of the graphical part. Programming is over, lets now kludge > some screens together. No. The graphics part has to be carefully > designed, carefully tested, and carefully "written", even if it > is using a graphical tool. So, yes please, *do* create a GUI > "programmatically". > > Groetjes Albert Agreed! You *must* get up-close-and-personal with the GUI code. You know, in the past i would write the logic first and then fit the GUI to the code, not any more!. Now I design the GUI first, then write the code to complement it. Maybe i'm just nuts, but i thought GUI's where targeted at "non-technical" end users, not the enlightened few? get_enlightened(http://jjsenlightenments.blogspot.com/) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: IDE for python similar to visual basic
In article , Nobody wrote: >On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 10:48:24 -0700, r wrote: > >> I think a point and click GUI builder (although some may disagree) is >> actually detrimental to your programming skills. The ability to >> visualize the GUI only from the source code as you read it, is as >> important to a programmer as site reading sheet music is to a >> musician. And I like to program with the training wheels off. > >The main advantage of a GUI builder is that it helps prevent you from >hard-coding the GUI into the program. You could get the same effect by >coding a UIL/XRC/etc file manually, but a GUI builder tends to force it. A GUI builder results in hard coding the GUI. The code only resides elsewhere. > >It also allows the GUI to be edited by without requiring any programming >knowledge. This eliminates the need for the GUI designer to be familiar >with the programming language used (or any programming language), and >allows customisation by end users. This is the real argument. The code is separated into two modules. The modules are coded in different languages. All for good reason. Maybe the configuration file can be changed without recompiling the c-code. Very nice. > >Creating a GUI programmatically is almost always the wrong approach. It >tends to be adopted due to a path of least resistance, rather than any >affirmative reason. In view of the above this is not quite the correct way to put it. What I resent is that it leads to a non-professional attitude of the graphical part. Programming is over, lets now kludge some screens together. No. The graphics part has to be carefully designed, carefully tested, and carefully "written", even if it is using a graphical tool. So, yes please, *do* create a GUI "programmatically". Groetjes Albert -- -- Albert van der Horst, UTRECHT,THE NETHERLANDS Economic growth -- being exponential -- ultimately falters. alb...@spe&ar&c.xs4all.nl &=n http://home.hccnet.nl/a.w.m.van.der.horst -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
