Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Frank Millman wrote: Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Frank Millman wrote: Then you can mention that, if they just want the integer portion, they can use int(3/2). I think that most people with the slightest understanding of basic arithmetic will relate to this without a problem. Or instead of converting the `float` back to an `int`, they can use integer division: ``3 // 2`` I had thought of that. The reason I did not suggest it is that, as I understand it, this tutorial is not about how to learn Python, it is about teaching programming to the absolute beginner. Right !! I imagine (hope I am not making invalid assumptions here) that Python was chosen as a base because it is easy and intuitive to learn, and in most cases it is. It just happens that division is one area where it is a bit awkward. Right again !! Although the Python way is almost always easy to learn I won't be pythonic (as in specific to Python) where it won't help. Regards, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Frank Millman wrote: Why not think to the future, and do it like this. Instruct the reader to enter 'from __future__ import division'. You do not have to explain the details, just say that this is the way division will work in the future, and this statement will eventually not be required. Then your example will show that 3/2 = 1.5, which is what they would expect. Then you can mention that, if they just want the integer portion, they can use int(3/2). I think that most people with the slightest understanding of basic arithmetic will relate to this without a problem. Or instead of converting the `float` back to an `int`, they can use integer division: ``3 // 2`` Ciao, Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Marc 'BlackJack' Rintsch wrote: In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Frank Millman wrote: Then you can mention that, if they just want the integer portion, they can use int(3/2). I think that most people with the slightest understanding of basic arithmetic will relate to this without a problem. Or instead of converting the `float` back to an `int`, they can use integer division: ``3 // 2`` I had thought of that. The reason I did not suggest it is that, as I understand it, this tutorial is not about how to learn Python, it is about teaching programming to the absolute beginner. I imagine (hope I am not making invalid assumptions here) that Python was chosen as a base because it is easy and intuitive to learn, and in most cases it is. It just happens that division is one area where it is a bit awkward. The // syntax is specific to Python. I don't think you are helping the absolute beginner by forcing them to understand what is going on here. On the other hand, int(x) is a basic mathematical concept (extract the portion to the left of the decimal point) that is shared by several languages and is fairly easy to understand. My 2c (I am up to 4c now) Frank -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: James wrote: On the calculator page you describe the difference between 3.0 / 2 and 3 / 2, but an absolute beginner probably wouldn't know about the difference between integers and floats, or even what the two terms meant. If you don't know much about computers then the fact that they are separate types would probably be surprising... This point is not easy to aproach. The fact is that it is necessary that the beginner knows that there is a differerence between 3 / 2 and 3.0 / 2. I don't want him to now about types, at least not at that stage. I used the term integer for the lack of a better one and I didn't mention float. Any suggestions? Regards, Clodoaldo. Here is a idea. I am not sure if it is a good idea, but you can compare it with the other suggestions for resolving this dilemma. We know that Python is in the process of changing the division operator. The main reason for the change is that the current approach is not intuitive to a newcomer (whether experienced or not). Why not think to the future, and do it like this. Instruct the reader to enter 'from __future__ import division'. You do not have to explain the details, just say that this is the way division will work in the future, and this statement will eventually not be required. Then your example will show that 3/2 = 1.5, which is what they would expect. Then you can mention that, if they just want the integer portion, they can use int(3/2). I think that most people with the slightest understanding of basic arithmetic will relate to this without a problem. My 2c Frank Millman -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Duncan Smith wrote: But as you use conversions to float in order to avoid integer division in your code examples, it might be best to explain what's going on, even if you do have to explain the relevant types. I changed the comments in the first program that uses float() to: # The raw_input() function asks the user for a text # As a text can't be multiplied or divided the # float() function tranforms the text into a decimal number I can't imagine anyone (who doesn't already know) looking at the example and not wondering why it returned 1 rather than something else. ... Integer is more mathematical, and more precise. I just looked up some definitions for whole number, and found it can apparently mean positive integer, non-negative integer, or integer. Maybe you can use integer and just put whole number in brackets after it, the first time you use it; as a vague definition? But describing the relevant types and integer division might make your later examples clearer. Now it says integer (whole number) followed by a link to a forum post where this issue can be discussed. http://programming-crash-course.com/integer_versus_float_division Regards, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Frank Millman wrote: We know that Python is in the process of changing the division operator. The main reason for the change is that the current approach is not intuitive to a newcomer (whether experienced or not). Why not think to the future, and do it like this. Instruct the reader to enter 'from __future__ import division'. You do not have to explain the details, just say that this is the way division will work in the future, and this statement will eventually not be required. Then your example will show that 3/2 = 1.5, which is what they would expect. Then you can mention that, if they just want the integer portion, they can use int(3/2). I think that most people with the slightest understanding of basic arithmetic will relate to this without a problem. I included your suggestion in the forum topic that is linked from the division paragraph: http://programming-crash-course.com/integer_versus_float_division -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: Duncan Smith wrote: But as you use conversions to float in order to avoid integer division in your code examples, it might be best to explain what's going on, even if you do have to explain the relevant types. I changed the comments in the first program that uses float() to: # The raw_input() function asks the user for a text # As a text can't be multiplied or divided the # float() function tranforms the text into a decimal number Hmmm, maybe a picky point for a newbie, but since there actually is a decimal module now, you might want to change the description of float(). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Looks pretty good, except for your difficult to read examples. Don't use black backrounds with green characters. A plain white background with black text would be a major improvement. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
malv a écrit : Looks pretty good, except for your difficult to read examples. Don't use black backrounds with green characters. A plain white background with black text would be a major improvement. May I suggest a system like Trac-Wiki, that knows how to display Python code with syntax-hilighting and line-numbering ?-) (Not sure but IIRC, MoinMoin as the same feature). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
On the calculator page you describe the difference between 3.0 / 2 and 3 / 2, but an absolute beginner probably wouldn't know about the difference between integers and floats, or even what the two terms meant. If you don't know much about computers then the fact that they are separate types would probably be surprising... James On 7 Apr 2006 12:45:48 -0700, Clodoaldo Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm starting a programming tutorial for absolute beginners using Python and I would like your opinions. http://programming-crash-course.com Regards, Clodoaldo Pinto -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto a écrit : bill pursell wrote: (snip) 2) In the section on installing, you begin with: Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language.. The complete novice sees those words and expects them to be explained, but there is no definition given. I would recommend simplifying that sentence, or explaining the terms. Ok, i will think about something, or just delete it. FWIW, being interpreted is not a feature of a language but of a given implementation of a language - and actually, the reference implementation (CPython) is byte-compiled, not interpreted. As for interactivity, it comes from a program (the Python shell) that ships with the reference implementation - not from the laguage itself. This leaves us with Python is an object-oriented programming language, which is not 100% accurate since Python - even if strongly OO - also supports the procedural and functional paradigms !-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Bruno Desthuilliers wrote: Clodoaldo Pinto a écrit : bill pursell wrote: (snip) 2) In the section on installing, you begin with: Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language.. The complete novice sees those words and expects them to be explained, but there is no definition given. I would recommend simplifying that sentence, or explaining the terms. Ok, i will think about something, or just delete it. FWIW, being interpreted is not a feature of a language but of a given implementation of a language - and actually, the reference implementation (CPython) is byte-compiled, not interpreted. As for interactivity, it comes from a program (the Python shell) that ships with the reference implementation - not from the laguage itself. That Python definition was taken literally from the old site's about page. The new about page is better for the purposes of this course: Python is a remarkably powerful dynamic programming language that is used in a wide variety of application domains. Python is often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. Some of its key distinguishing features include:... Or the first page definition: Python® is a dynamic object-oriented programming language that can be used for many kinds of software development. It offers strong support for integration with other languages and tools, comes with extensive standard libraries, and can be learned in a few days. Many Python programmers report substantial productivity gains and feel the language encourages the development of higher quality, more maintainable code. I'm leaning towards the first page one from which i would take this part out: is a dynamic object-oriented programming language That would leave this simple text: Python® can be used for many kinds of software development. It offers strong support for integration with other languages and tools, comes with extensive standard libraries, and can be learned in a few days. Many Python programmers report substantial productivity gains and feel the language encourages the development of higher quality, more maintainable code. Regards, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
James wrote: On the calculator page you describe the difference between 3.0 / 2 and 3 / 2, but an absolute beginner probably wouldn't know about the difference between integers and floats, or even what the two terms meant. If you don't know much about computers then the fact that they are separate types would probably be surprising... This point is not easy to aproach. The fact is that it is necessary that the beginner knows that there is a differerence between 3 / 2 and 3.0 / 2. I don't want him to now about types, at least not at that stage. I used the term integer for the lack of a better one and I didn't mention float. Any suggestions? Regards, Clodoaldo. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Perhaps use the phrase whole number there and mention that in programming they're called integers. Having a glossary with definitions for things like integer, float etc etc. would be good if when you talked about integers it linked to the glossary. And similarly use decimals for floats? Less sure about that one though. But anyway you don't need to go into the whole type thing, just mention that Python distinguishes between doing maths with whole numbers and decimals. On 8 Apr 2006 09:02:22 -0700, Clodoaldo Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't want him to now about types, at least not at that stage. I used the term integer for the lack of a better one and I didn't mention float. Any suggestions? Regards, Clodoaldo. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: Python is a remarkably powerful dynamic programming language that is used in a wide variety of application domains. Python is often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. Some of its key distinguishing features include:... I'd be careful with that definition for newbies though. There's nothing more frustrating (as a newbie myself) when Python (or anything else) is compared to something as a way to explain it, yet I have no idea what the other things are either! A programming newbie won't know about, and maybe won't even have heard of, those other languages. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
James wrote: Perhaps use the phrase whole number there and mention that in programming they're called integers. Having a glossary with definitions for things like integer, float etc etc. would be good if when you talked about integers it linked to the glossary. And similarly use decimals for floats? Less sure about that one though. But anyway you don't need to go into the whole type thing, just mention that Python distinguishes between doing maths with whole numbers and decimals. In general they are integers, and integer is not a Python type, so I don't see a problem with the term. The problem I saw was that there was no explanation for the returned value. Using the term decimal is probably a bad idea, given Python decimals. But I'm not sure you need to come up with a suitable term until you actually get round to explaining types (at which point the problem disappears). Duncan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
John Salerno wrote: Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: Python is a remarkably powerful dynamic programming language that is used in a wide variety of application domains. Python is often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. Some of its key distinguishing features include:... I'd be careful with that definition for newbies though. There's nothing more frustrating (as a newbie myself) when Python (or anything else) is compared to something as a way to explain it, yet I have no idea what the other things are either! A programming newbie won't know about, and maybe won't even have heard of, those other languages. Good point. I used the Python site front page definition without the object oriented thing. Regars, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
If you're serious about this being a real introduction for someone who knows nothing, then you might want to start off by explaining what a programming language is (and why there are more than one) and then what a standard library is - perhaps explain it in terms of a large set of tools you can use straight away? James On 8 Apr 2006 11:53:34 -0700, Clodoaldo Pinto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: John Salerno wrote: Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: Python is a remarkably powerful dynamic programming language that is used in a wide variety of application domains. Python is often compared to Tcl, Perl, Ruby, Scheme or Java. Some of its key distinguishing features include:... I'd be careful with that definition for newbies though. There's nothing more frustrating (as a newbie myself) when Python (or anything else) is compared to something as a way to explain it, yet I have no idea what the other things are either! A programming newbie won't know about, and maybe won't even have heard of, those other languages. Good point. I used the Python site front page definition without the object oriented thing. Regars, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Duncan Smith wrote: James wrote: Perhaps use the phrase whole number there and mention that in programming they're called integers. Having a glossary with definitions for things like integer, float etc etc. would be good if when you talked about integers it linked to the glossary. And similarly use decimals for floats? Less sure about that one though. But anyway you don't need to go into the whole type thing, just mention that Python distinguishes between doing maths with whole numbers and decimals. In general they are integers, and integer is not a Python type, so I don't see a problem with the term. The problem I saw was that there was no explanation for the returned value. How would I explain that 3 / 2 is 1 without entering the type realm? What if I say that if one don't use the point the interpreter will also not use it? Would i be laying? Isn't it better to just let it go? I think the typical non programmer newbie just don't care two much about reasons as long as there is a clear rule. No point in the question then no point in the answer. Using the term decimal is probably a bad idea, given Python decimals. But I'm not sure you need to come up with a suitable term until you actually get round to explaining types (at which point the problem disappears). As I think float is scaring I changed it in the program comments where it appeared for decimal. I don't worry about precision as much as I worry about fluidity. I don't want anyone stoping to consult a dictionary or a glossary. Now the integer versus whole. As a non native english speaker I don't know what sounds less mathematical and more natural. I changed integer to whole following the previous suggestion but I really don't know. Regards, Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: Duncan Smith wrote: James wrote: Perhaps use the phrase whole number there and mention that in programming they're called integers. Having a glossary with definitions for things like integer, float etc etc. would be good if when you talked about integers it linked to the glossary. And similarly use decimals for floats? Less sure about that one though. But anyway you don't need to go into the whole type thing, just mention that Python distinguishes between doing maths with whole numbers and decimals. In general they are integers, and integer is not a Python type, so I don't see a problem with the term. The problem I saw was that there was no explanation for the returned value. How would I explain that 3 / 2 is 1 without entering the type realm? Well you said something like it returns an integer without explaining why the returned integer was 1 rather than, say, 10. So you probably need to explain what integer division is, e.g. http://mathworld.wolfram.com/IntegerDivision.html. What if I say that if one don't use the point the interpreter will also not use it? Would i be laying? Isn't it better to just let it go? I reckon letting it go would lead to confusion. If I didn't know already, I'd want to know why it returned 1. You can explain that without referring to types, but just saying e.g. that ordinary division is performed if the numerator or denominator is followed by a decimal point. But as you use conversions to float in order to avoid integer division in your code examples, it might be best to explain what's going on, even if you do have to explain the relevant types. I think the typical non programmer newbie just don't care two much about reasons as long as there is a clear rule. No point in the question then no point in the answer. I can't imagine anyone (who doesn't already know) looking at the example and not wondering why it returned 1 rather than something else. Using the term decimal is probably a bad idea, given Python decimals. But I'm not sure you need to come up with a suitable term until you actually get round to explaining types (at which point the problem disappears). As I think float is scaring I changed it in the program comments where it appeared for decimal. I don't worry about precision as much as I worry about fluidity. I don't want anyone stoping to consult a dictionary or a glossary. Now the integer versus whole. As a non native english speaker I don't know what sounds less mathematical and more natural. I changed integer to whole following the previous suggestion but I really don't know. Integer is more mathematical, and more precise. I just looked up some definitions for whole number, and found it can apparently mean positive integer, non-negative integer, or integer. Maybe you can use integer and just put whole number in brackets after it, the first time you use it; as a vague definition? But describing the relevant types and integer division might make your later examples clearer. Duncan -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
I'm starting a programming tutorial for absolute beginners using Python and I would like your opinions. http://programming-crash-course.com Regards, Clodoaldo Pinto -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: I'm starting a programming tutorial for absolute beginners using Python and I would like your opinions. http://programming-crash-course.com Very nicely laid out. Overall, a really nice presentation. 2 minor points: 1) in the section on the interactive interpreter you have the sentence: In Linux open a shell and type python (must be lower case). It would be nice if the word 'python' were in a different font, or perhaps in quotes, or something. You're targetting the absolute beginner, so you should assume the reader is not familiar with the CLI. 2) In the section on installing, you begin with: Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language.. The complete novice sees those words and expects them to be explained, but there is no definition given. I would recommend simplifying that sentence, or explaining the terms. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
bill pursell wrote: 1) in the section on the interactive interpreter you have the sentence: In Linux open a shell and type python (must be lower case). It would be nice if the word 'python' were in a different font, or perhaps codepython/code would be good there. 2) In the section on installing, you begin with: Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language.. The complete novice sees those words and expects them to be explained, but there is no definition given. I would recommend simplifying that sentence, or explaining the terms. I had that same thought, actually. Also, is the section called pretty printing mistitled? Doesn't that name refer to the pprint module? It looks real nice though. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
bill pursell wrote: 1) in the section on the interactive interpreter you have the sentence: In Linux open a shell and type python (must be lower case). It would be nice if the word 'python' were in a different font, or perhaps in quotes, or something. You're targetting the absolute beginner, so you should assume the reader is not familiar with the CLI. Done, thanks. 2) In the section on installing, you begin with: Python is an interpreted, interactive, object-oriented programming language.. The complete novice sees those words and expects them to be explained, but there is no definition given. I would recommend simplifying that sentence, or explaining the terms. Ok, i will think about something, or just delete it. Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
John Salerno wrote: Also, is the section called pretty printing mistitled? Doesn't that name refer to the pprint module? I didn't think about pprint. I used pretty in the sense of Pleasing or attractive in a graceful or delicate way. (dictionary) If you have any suggestions for that page's title please do so. Clodoaldo -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
For tutorial in Windows, I think it is better to use the more user-friendly interpreter from http://activestate.com/store/languages/register.plex?id=ActivePython. Advise the user to just click on the Next button without submitting the optional contact information. My $0.02 -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Programming Tutorial for absolute beginners
Clodoaldo Pinto wrote: John Salerno wrote: Also, is the section called pretty printing mistitled? Doesn't that name refer to the pprint module? I didn't think about pprint. I used pretty in the sense of Pleasing or attractive in a graceful or delicate way. (dictionary) If you have any suggestions for that page's title please do so. It may not really be that misleading, especially if you've never heard of pprint before. But you can always call it something simple like The 'print' statement -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
