Re: Python Worst Practices
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 21:09:24 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: > >there was a time (maybe times, I don't remember) when >Microsoft tried hard to require "managed code" everywhere (aka ".NET >runtime only"), and the push-back was so strong that they had to >abandon the requirement. But somehow, people accept rules about phone >apps that they wouldn't accept about desktop apps... crazy stuff. > I think the Apple mobile ecosystem was just a special case. Due to the popularity and lack of competition it enjoyed in the yearly years (really a byproduct of the fact they basically created the computing platform) it became possible for Apple to impose those absurd rules to quite a degree of success. No doubt with the help of the genius invention of curated app stores. But history is bound to repeat itself. Just like with the desktop market when Apple enjoyed sudden growth in the 80s and the early 90s, it was its all-around closed architecture that enventually removed it from mainstream computing. And we are already witnessing the same happening to its mobile sector. Perhaps just not with the dramatic results of its desktop counterpart, due to the fact Apple introduced mobile computing to an already established and massified computing marketplace and was so able to create a larger share. But an all-around closed architecture is still one of the things that is putting Apple behind. I think that open systems eventually dominate over closed ones as soon as they become available. The mobile market, still in its infancy, allows for some walled gardens. But they will just wither and die. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Am 26.02.2015 01:37 schrieb Chris Angelico: My bad. I was talking in a context of Python programming, specifically with APIs where you would use some kind of true/false flag as either a function parameter or a return value. Oh. Then take subprocess.Popen.wait()... :-P Thomas -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Am 06.03.15 um 19:15 schrieb Marko Rauhamaa:
> llanitedave :
>
>> It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the
>> International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and
>> keywords.
>
> You're onto something:
ROFL!!!
Though I'd prefer a few identifiers in a different way; I think you can
drop many of the ɹ, e.g.
>
> #!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3
> # -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*-
>
> ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl
ɪmˈpɔːt ˈləʊkl
British accent saves bytes!!
SCNR
>
> dɛf meɪn():
> tɹaɪ:
> ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ()
> ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
> tɹaɪ:
> ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ()
> ˈfaɪnli:
> ɹeɪz
>
> ɪf __neɪm__ == "__meɪn__":
> tɹaɪ:
> meɪn()
> ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
> pɹɪnt("Həˈloʊ")
>
>
>
> Marko
>
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
llanitedave :
> It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the
> International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and
> keywords.
You're onto something:
#!/ˈjuːzəɹ/bɪn/ɛnv ˈpaɪˌθɑːn3
# -*- ˈkoʊdɪŋ: ˌjuːˌtiːˌɛf-ˈ8 -*-
ˈɪmpoɹt loʊˈkæl
dɛf meɪn():
tɹaɪ:
ɹeɪz ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ()
ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
tɹaɪ:
ɹeɪz ˈAɪOʊˈƐɹəɹ()
ˈfaɪnli:
ɹeɪz
ɪf __neɪm__ == "__meɪn__":
tɹaɪ:
meɪn()
ɪkˈsɛpt ˈVæljuːˈƐɹəɹ:
pɹɪnt("Həˈloʊ")
Marko
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Friday, March 6, 2015 at 2:03:42 AM UTC-8, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Rustom Mody : > > > I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... > > > > Can you hear my accent? > > If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even > understand it. > > > But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting > > to > > - to Mark > > - to British accent > > - to British spellings in software > > - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format > > I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical > documentation. > > I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings > including but not limited to: > > - conference speeches with international audiences > > - group discussions with international participants > > - teleconferences with international participants > > In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English > accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak > English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much > of it with native speakers). > > > Marko It's obvious that's what's needed here is a PEP requiring that the International Phonetic Alphabet be used for all Python identifiers and keywords. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Fri, 06 Mar 2015 08:31:40 +, Mark Lawrence wrote: > On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote: >> On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa >> wrote: >>> Rustom Mody: >>> You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to pay >>> >>> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. >> >> I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... >> >> Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking >> of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is >> that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in >> Finland. >> [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global >> warming? >> And is global warming on topic for this list?] >> Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining >> about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. >> >> If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using >> 'accent' >> to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for >> better communication. >> >> But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are >> objecting to - to Mark - to British accent > > British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in > this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm > from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, > English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's > chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 > miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent > indeed. > Foreigner? I can barely understand a Geordie accent & I am English. whilst I agree to a point with Marco that when talking to a forigner you should take care to speak clearly for them the suggestion that American pronunciation is what I find unacceptable. even though I can (and do) watch American TV shows reasonably easily some of their pronunciations seriously grate on my nerves :- Bouy - it is pounced Boy not bo-ey! chasis - it has a soft Ch not a hard Ch, Aluminium, Heck they don't even sell it correctly ;-) >> - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, >> using non-international format >> >> >> ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this >> https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ >> hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the >> british accent. >> Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. >> >> Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to >> anyone objecting to him. >> >> > Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination > against autistic people. Now there is a not very subtle hint that might > penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that > participate here. Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely > small or we could have had WWIII. Which could have happened when Global > Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits > using our kettles to make our cuppas. Now that is seriously brain dead. > And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :( -- "All my life I wanted to be someone; I guess I should have been more specific." -- Jane Wagner -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Fri, 6 Mar 2015 00:00:28 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody wrote: >On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >> Rustom Mody: >> >> > You keep talking of accent. >> > At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. >> > Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. >> > If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? >> > If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to >> > pay >> >> Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. > >I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... > >Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours And if I call a Python list "books", is Python going to complain about my accent? Really? -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mark Lawrence : > British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in > this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think > I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, > English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's > chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 > miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent > indeed. The accents on the British isles are indeed much more diverse than in the colonies. They can also be very hard to understand, sometimes for native English-speakers as well. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Fri, Mar 6, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Jonas Wielicki wrote: > On 01.03.2015 03:43, Chris Angelico wrote: >> Imagine if all >> your Python code ran twice as fast (that's slightly better than the >> IronPython figure quoted!), but worked only on BSD Unix and Mac OS. Is >> that something that'll make a fledgling language succeed? > > I heard that Swift and Objective-C are quite popular these days. > > regards, > jwi In other words, it requires major pushing from the platform vendor. It'd be impossible for some third-party to make a language that successful, I expect. And even *with* that kind of pushing, it's pretty chancy; there was a time (maybe times, I don't remember) when Microsoft tried hard to require "managed code" everywhere (aka ".NET runtime only"), and the push-back was so strong that they had to abandon the requirement. But somehow, people accept rules about phone apps that they wouldn't accept about desktop apps... crazy stuff. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody : > I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... > > Can you hear my accent? If we met at a Python conference, I would hear it and hopefully even understand it. > But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to > - to Mark > - to British accent > - to British spellings in software > - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format I'm objecting (mildly) to British spellings in source code and technical documentation. I'm objecting (more strongly) to local English accents in settings including but not limited to: - conference speeches with international audiences - group discussions with international participants - teleconferences with international participants In my experience, it is harder to understand most British English accents than, say, a run-of-the-mill Chinese engineer trying to speak English. It has to do with pronunciation, speed and eloquence (too much of it with native speakers). Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 06/03/2015 08:00, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Rustom Mody: You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to pay Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland. [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming? And is global warming on topic for this list?] Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent' to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent British accent, Christmas is early this year so ho, ho, ho. Nobody in this country ever guesses where I was born and bred, they all think I'm from the South West or the West Country. Irish, Scottish, Welsh, English alone are different. Most foreigners wouldn't have a dog's chance in hell of understanding a Geordie or a Glaswegian. Move 50 miles and you can hear a completely different accent. British accent indeed. - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent. Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone objecting to him. Anybody objecting about me will be accused by me of discrimination against autistic people. Now there is a not very subtle hint that might penetrate one or two of the thicker skins on the thicker heads that participate here. Thankfully the numbers of such people are extremely small or we could have had WWIII. Which could have happened when Global Crossing bought Racal Telecommunications and tried to stop us Brits using our kettles to make our cuppas. Now that is seriously brain dead. And they turned out to be a bit naughty with the books :( -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 10:49:54 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Rustom Mody: > > > You keep talking of accent. > > At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. > > Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. > > If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? > > If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to > > pay > > Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. I really dont understand what we are communicating (or not) about... Can you hear my accent? I certainly cant hear yours If you are talking of accent (aural/physical just to be clear) of your co-workers how is that more on-topic or relevant to this list than the weather in Finland. [Yeah its been freakish weather out here for the last 10 days -- global warming? And is global warming on topic for this list?] Just to be clear -- I am going to be one of the tail-enders complaining about on/off-topicness. But someone or other will complain I guess. If on the other hand you are being slightly metaphorical and using 'accent' to talk of (say) Mark's britishisms¹ then please disambiguate for better communication. But more to the point its still not clear (to me) whether you are objecting to - to Mark - to British accent - to British spellings in software - to anyone/anywhere international, using non-international format ¹Personally I find Mark's britishisms sometimes funny eg I found this https://groups.google.com/d/msg/comp.lang.python/EfloMHB3DjQ/ZdY3Vn_6rpsJ hilarious even though I could not decipher more than 70% of the british accent. Sometimes though I find it irrelevant/unnecessary/undecipherable. Personally I am not going to object to him nor am I going to object to anyone objecting to him. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 01.03.2015 03:43, Chris Angelico wrote: > Imagine if all > your Python code ran twice as fast (that's slightly better than the > IronPython figure quoted!), but worked only on BSD Unix and Mac OS. Is > that something that'll make a fledgling language succeed? I heard that Swift and Objective-C are quite popular these days. regards, jwi -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 05/03/2015 03:38, Rustom Mody wrote: On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano: Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to pay -- ¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh! I like the idea of some visitor to Scotland mentioning some speaker's English accent. I'm not so keen on the idea of the said visitor being introduced to the Scottish handshake. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steve Hayes : > On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa >>English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had >>better stick to American spellings. >> >>Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff >>to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around >>the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that >>overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can >>be very difficult to understand. > > Are things named in Python named with an accent? > > Can you tell what my accent is like when I write in this newsgroup? It's clear my accent is clouding my message. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 21:33:01 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >Steven D'Aprano : > >> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to >> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. > >English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had >better stick to American spellings. > >Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff >to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around >the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that >overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can >be very difficult to understand. Are things named in Python named with an accent? Can you tell what my accent is like when I write in this newsgroup? -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mario Figueiredo : > If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your > accent, because you are in your country I'm in Finland, mind you. Finnish (the Häme dialect, specifically) is my native language. I'm not suggesting my international coworkers should address me in my language, let alone my home dialect. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thu, 05 Mar 2015 07:19:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > >Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. > Communications skills... the bane of any software developer. Pronunciation is just another obstacle to cross on top of the natural barrier that is transmitting complex computer science ideas through natural language. An ascii file with some code does a much better job at that. Most bugs start in a our mouths, no matter how many times we brush our teeth. In any case, communication is a two-way process. If you can't understand British accent, you should make an effort to do so. It will enrich your communication skills and that is an important skill to have. Might even land you a better job. If instead you prefer to demand british people to speak in your accent, because you are in your country and people should speak with your accent and all that bullshit, and you can't understand them and they should make an effort, waa-waa, that is fine. I'm sure you are otherwise a a friendly and communicative character. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody : > You keep talking of accent. > At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. > Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. > If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? > If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to > pay Where I work, people do use voice still occasionally to communicate. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Thursday, March 5, 2015 at 1:03:13 AM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Steven D'Aprano: > > > Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to > > have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. > > Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff > to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around > the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that > overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can > be very difficult to understand. You keep talking of accent. At first I thought you were using the word figuratively or else joking. Im now beginning to wonder if you mean it literally. If so have you patented a new AOIP protocol? If not do you give tuitions¹ in ESP/telepathy/Voodoo? I'll be happy to pay -- ¹GG is red-lining tuitions -- heh! -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 5 March 2015 at 09:39, Emile van Sebille wrote: > On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote: > >> A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking >> together where at least two of their languages match (or are close >> enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and >> out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're >> trying to say, and no one will involved realise. >> > > Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother had > said the previous ten minutes. :) The phenomenon I'm talking about involves people switching languages mid-sentence without the participants noticing. It mainly occurs with people who grew up speaking multiple languages, and commonly switch between them in their thoughts. If your grandmother learned her second/third/etc languages after she was a teenager then it's likely she mainly thinks in one language and translates to others. It can also be seen with people who have recently had long-term saturation exposure to a second language - for example, exchange students who have just come back from a year's stay. When I'd recently returned from Brasil (20-odd years ago now ...) there was one time when everyone was a native (Australia) english speaker and had a mix of latin-based second languages - that was close enough for it to happen. Tim Delaney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 3/4/2015 12:40 PM, Tim Delaney wrote: A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to say, and no one will involved realise. Except for my poor grandmother who hadn't understood a word my mother had said the previous ten minutes. :) Emile -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 5 March 2015 at 07:11, Steven D'Aprano < steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info> wrote: > > As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing > accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it > incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches > to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that > most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly > generic English accent that most people think is American, but within > seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a > full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it. This is very much the case - any time someone is reacquainted with their native accent they tend to strongly slip back into it, and it takes some time to get their more neutral accent back. A related thing is when you have multiple multi-lingual people talking together where at least two of their languages match (or are close enough for most uses e.g. Spanish and Portuguese). They'll slip in and out of multiple languages depending on which best expresses what they're trying to say, and no one will involved realise. Tim Delaney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Am 04.03.15 um 00:12 schrieb Chris Angelico:
> The problems come from needing more than two components at each step,
> like with string formatting. You could write it like this:
>
> "Hello, %s from %s!" % name % location
>
> but then it'd be really hard to track down errors - the modulo
> operator would have to handle the first percent sign and leave any
> others unchanged. Plus there'd need to be some weird and funky magic
> to mark the "current interpolation position" in order to cope with %%
> becoming %, and the possibility that the person's name contains a
> percent sign.
boost::format does it like this, but not in a magic string processing
way as you desribe it. The string is parsed and some funny template
magic ensures that the arguments are inserted into it.
>>> Operator overloading in each case here is "cute", not optimally practical.
>>
>> Maybe just sub-optimal? With today's C++ one could use a variadic
>> template and still have type-safe compile-time bound output formatting.
>> This hasn't been possible in the original iostream library back then.
>
> I'm not sure how that would work, but the main question is: How is it
> advantageous over a simple call? Actually, here's a simple way to do
> it: Make the stream object callable.
>
> cout("Hello, world!\n");
Well variadic templates make it possible to do this:
string name="Chris";
int age=36;
cout("Hello ", name, "your age is ", age);
with any number of arguments of any (supported) type. This seems trivial
in Python, but is quite hard to do for a statically compiled language. A
type-safe printf-style function is one of the prime examples for
variadic templates: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variadic_template
> You can take as many args as you want, precedence and associativity
> won't bite you, and it still reads reasonably well. The operator
> method has to prove that it's better than that.
Agreed. The operator method was necessary in C++ because there simply
was no other way to create this interface. C++11 gained a lot more
features, but iostreams is still the thing from the very first design of
C++.
Christian
--
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Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 04/03/2015 19:33, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano : Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Marko This sums up perfectly why you made it onto my dream team so quickly. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Steven D'Aprano : > >> Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to >> have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. > > English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had > better stick to American spellings. > > Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff > to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around > the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that > overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can > be very difficult to understand. Yes, that's exactly what I thought your point was. So I am utterly perplexed why you said: "No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about." and gave an irrelevant anecdote about using a source's claim to divinity as evidence of divinity. It seems to me that people in this thread *do* understand what is being talked about, but just disagree with your conclusion about making American English the mandatory spelling for programs. As for your comments about spoken accents, I sympathise. But changing accents is very hard for most people (although a very few people find it incredibly easy). Even professionals typically need to have voice coaches to teach them to change accents successfully. One of the problems is that most people don't hear their own accent. My wife usually has a fairly generic English accent that most people think is American, but within seconds of beginning to talk to another Irish person she is speaking in a full-blown Irish accent, and she is *completely* unaware of it. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano : > Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to > have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. English-speaker, when you name things in your Python programs, you had better stick to American spellings. Even more important, when you talk about Python or other computer stuff to a non-English-speaker, try to emulate the accent most people around the world are most familiar with, American English. If you find that overwhelming, try to speak like a BBC newsreader. Your native accent can be very difficult to understand. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 03/04/2015 11:14 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > [...] > > > Wow -- a new level of succinctness! ;) -- ~Ethan~ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > llanitedave : > >> Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and >> named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument >> about whether its users are sufficiently "American". > > No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being > talked about. Care to enlighten us then? Because your anecdote doesn't appear to have even the most tenuous relationship to this discussion. > Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish > theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: [...] -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mario Figueiredo : > Care to summarize then? > > Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should > write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect > and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to > this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement). I don't remember jabbing at anybody. It is fact (proudly proclaimed on this forum as well) that most English-speakers believe their native accents are suitable for international communication. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 6:46:32 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > llanitedave : > > > Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and > > named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument > > about whether its users are sufficiently "American". > > No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being > talked about. > > Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish > theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: > >Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible > even though the Bible states it is the word of God. > >Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If > that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true. > >Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran > is truer than the Bible! > Ha! Ha!! Reminds me of Bertrand Russel's: Man is said to be a logical animal. All my life Ive tried to find evidence of that. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Wed, 04 Mar 2015 15:16:18 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > >No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being >talked about. > Care to summarize then? Because the one thing I'm seeing is your assertion that people should write identifiers in a more standard way following an us-eng dialect and you jab at the British by accusing them of being more resistant to this than non-english speakers (which is just a blanket statement). -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
llanitedave : > Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and > named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument > about whether its users are sufficiently "American". No, the ultimate irony is that people don't understand what is being talked about. Reminds me of a situation decades back when a (Lutheran) Finnish theology professor was suspected of heresy. It went like this: Faithful Crowd: The professor won't accept the truth of the Bible even though the Bible states it is the word of God. Professor: You are saying the Bible is true because it says so. If that is a valid criterion, the Quran is even more obviously true. Faithful Crowd: Did you hear that! The professor's saying the Quran is truer than the Bible! Marko PS Before you get out your pitchforks, please note that this posting is *not* making a statement on the truth in the Bible and/or the Quran. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Seems the ultimate in irony when a language invented by a Dutchman and named after a British comedy troupe gets bogged down in an argument about whether its users are sufficiently "American". -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 9:46 AM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote:
> I can agree with the argument that operator precedence can make
> problems; e.g. this
>
> cout<
> does not output the truth value of a==b, but instead outputs a and
> compares the stream to b (which will usually fail to compile, but still).
>
> But the argument that << is a left-shift and nothing else is silly. <<
> for bitshift is nothing more intuitive than % for modulus (where in math
> does this symbol occur?) or [] for indexing. We just got used to it, and
> to me << as an arrow for putting someting into a stream seems pretty
> obvious.
I don't mind the idea of << meaning something other than left-shift.
The problem comes usually when you try to use a binary operator in
place of a variadic function, and suddenly you need a pile of hacks to
get around operator overloading.
If you use << to add a flag to a flag-set (where the "flag-set" might
be an integer that retains bit-flags, or a set that retains strings,
or whatever), that would make reasonable sense. You take one thing on
the left, one thing on the right, and produce a result. (Or you'd use
<<= for that, which still looks fine. Then it does an assignment
instead of producing a result.)
If you create a Path object that responds to binary division with a
new Path that combines the left and right sides, that also makes very
good sense. The slash means "next path component" rather than
"divide", and it still is binary - there's no logical difference
between these:
Path("/etc") / "network" / "interfaces"
(Path("/etc") / "network") / "interfaces"
The problems come from needing more than two components at each step,
like with string formatting. You could write it like this:
"Hello, %s from %s!" % name % location
but then it'd be really hard to track down errors - the modulo
operator would have to handle the first percent sign and leave any
others unchanged. Plus there'd need to be some weird and funky magic
to mark the "current interpolation position" in order to cope with %%
becoming %, and the possibility that the person's name contains a
percent sign. No, string interpolation needs more than two arguments.
So either you have to mandatorially package the args up into an
iterable:
"Hello, %s from %s!" % (name, location)
which is very easy to forget (just look at what happens when you use
the Python DB API 2.0 and use "cur.execute(sql, single_argument)" -
you have to package that up into a one-tuple), or you have a special
case for non-tuple arguments, which is what Python has done. This is
great, except in the situation where you want to accept *any arbitrary
object* as your argument, eg for %r; you have to package that one up,
otherwise a tuple will behave very oddly. Hence, hacks on hacks to get
around the limitations of binary operators.
>> Operator overloading in each case here is "cute", not optimally practical.
>
> Maybe just sub-optimal? With today's C++ one could use a variadic
> template and still have type-safe compile-time bound output formatting.
> This hasn't been possible in the original iostream library back then.
I'm not sure how that would work, but the main question is: How is it
advantageous over a simple call? Actually, here's a simple way to do
it: Make the stream object callable.
cout("Hello, world!\n");
You can take as many args as you want, precedence and associativity
won't bite you, and it still reads reasonably well. The operator
method has to prove that it's better than that.
ChrisA
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Re: Python Worst Practices
Am 03.03.15 um 12:12 schrieb Chris Angelico: > On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 7:51 PM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote: > >> Are you trying to pick on C++ streams? I could never understand why >> anybody has problems with an arrow << that means "put into the left >> thing" instead of "shift the bits to the left". How often do you use >> bitshift operations in your programs as opposed to output? Ot would be >> equally silly to complain, that in Python you divide a string by a >> tuple, and the modulus gives you a formatted string. > > I am, yes. Both your examples seem lovely and simple when you first > look at them, but operator precedence means you get weird edge cases. > In the case of string modulo, there's another edge case as a > consequence of the operator being, by necessity, binary. A function > call makes better sense here. I can agree with the argument that operator precedence can make problems; e.g. this cout< Operator overloading in each case here is "cute", not optimally practical. Maybe just sub-optimal? With today's C++ one could use a variadic template and still have type-safe compile-time bound output formatting. This hasn't been possible in the original iostream library back then. Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Op 02-03-15 om 15:39 schreef Steven D'Aprano: > Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > >> alister : >> >>> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in >>> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange >>> variation he uses? >> If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted >> on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. >> >> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council >> complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language >> there is Swedish. > I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who > apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in > parliament in his native Welsh. > > >>> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one >>> you are getting from we English (& Brits) >> I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a >> mile (say, Finnish -> American English) and you are up in arms about >> having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English). > "Not one inch!" > > Sometimes the small differences are more important than the big. Your > Finnishness is not threatened by learning English, any more than Mark's > Britishness would be threatened by him learning Russian. > > [Now there's a thought... with the historical relationships between Finland > and Russia, I wonder whether Finns would be as blasé about using a foreign > language if it were Russian rather than English? But I digress.] > > Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American > English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody > is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even > if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American > English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Nonsense. Why should it be impossible for a Finish person speaking fluent American English do be mistaken for an American. This is mostly about personal attitude --- which can be culturally enforced. I regularly meet people from the Netherlands who came to live in Northern Belgium. Some have an attitude like you describe above and others don't and don't mind adapting their language without feeling any less a Dutchman. Then we have people whose native tongue is French, who seem to think they will somehow lose their French speaking identity by learning Dutch. > Personally, I think that monocultures are harmful and ought to be resisted, > whether than monoculture is one-species-of-wheat, one-operating-system, or > one-language. The English-speaking world is threatened by American cultural > and linguistic monoculture[1], and that's a bad thing. The same applies to > the rest of the world, but to a much lesser extent. Having a rich and > varied cultural ecosystem is important, and regional differences in > language and culture are an essential part in that. People adapting their language in order to be better understood by their audience doesn't make a mono culture. This is just one newsgroup/mailing list. Talking about mono culture because of adapting to one specific variant of a particular language here makes no more sense than talking about mono culture because the subject here is python and not other computer languages. -- Antoon Pardon -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, 03 Mar 2015 03:00:30 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote: > I dont understand what you are saying. > Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively > pejorative eg fundamentalist, backward etc Now replace 'American > society' by 'Nazi Germany' finally we can call Godwins on this thread -- You may be sure that when a man begins to call himself a "realist," he is preparing to do something he is secretly ashamed of doing. -- Sydney Harris -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-03, Steven D'Aprano wrote:
> Jon Ribbens wrote:
>> On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>>> A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street
>>
>> If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American
>> equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the
>> other two are just nonsense.
>
> Unfortunately not nonsense.
Sorry, it is nonsense. Trust me, I've lived here all my life.
> A pub (short for public drinking house) is another name for a bar. Yes, they
> sometimes differ in their connotations ("pubs are decorated in wood, bars in
> chrome") but essentially they are the same thing.
No - as I said, it's highly misleading to pretend they are synonyms.
> A bar is also a rod of solid material, like a steel bar, and "a barrier or
> restriction to an action or advance".
Yes. Your argument is similar to "a cat is a four-legged furry animal,
a dog is a four-legged furry animal, therefore cats are dogs". If you
saw a gate blocking (or even "barring") your path, no English person
would say "that bar is in the way".
> And, sure enough, there is an old meaning of "gate" which means "a
> way, road, street, or path".
Well, yes. Emphasis on "old". But it turns out that English as it was
used historically before the USA even existed is not the same as
English as it is used today in the UK, any more that it is the same as
English in the USA today.
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Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-03, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:12:24 + (UTC), Jon Ribbens > declaimed the following: >>On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: >>> A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street >> >>If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American >>equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the >>other two are just nonsense. > > Not based on some of what I found in York while on TDY... Where the > entries to the old town -- what an American might call a gate -- were all > named bar, and the streets passing through those tended to have > names ending in gate. "Micklegate Bar Museum", for example, where > Micklegate passes through the city wall. That's a proper noun. It's derived from *Old Norse*, which hasn't been spoken by anyone since about the year 1,300. It has nothing at all to do with English, let alone English as it is spoken by anyone alive today. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 7:51 PM, Christian Gollwitzer wrote: > Am 28.02.15 um 02:44 schrieb Chris Angelico: >> On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:32 PM, wrote: >>> For example, I've seen someone create a Socket class, then created an >>> operator overload that allowed you to "add" a string to your socket to make >>> the socket send the string, with the result being a status code indicating >>> success or an error. >>> >> >> Why not left shift the socket by that string, the result being the >> original socket? At least that has precedent... >> > > Are you trying to pick on C++ streams? I could never understand why > anybody has problems with an arrow << that means "put into the left > thing" instead of "shift the bits to the left". How often do you use > bitshift operations in your programs as opposed to output? Ot would be > equally silly to complain, that in Python you divide a string by a > tuple, and the modulus gives you a formatted string. I am, yes. Both your examples seem lovely and simple when you first look at them, but operator precedence means you get weird edge cases. In the case of string modulo, there's another edge case as a consequence of the operator being, by necessity, binary. A function call makes better sense here. Operator overloading in each case here is "cute", not optimally practical. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 10:02:30 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote: > On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody wrote: > > > >I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing > > I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to > establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any > other language. Eh? There was some such suggestion?? All that I saw was suggestions like this: [Of course I may have missed some] Marko: | (Spelling deviations are actually minor nuisances. A bigger problem is | when a Brit thinks they can use their home accent in international | contexts.) > It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly > communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written > language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural > resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve > isn't going ever to agree with some official authority. > > As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I > find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people > of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk, > particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a > laugh right there. I dont understand what you are saying. Lets say you replace 'conservative' by something more definitively pejorative eg fundamentalist, backward etc Now replace 'American society' by 'Nazi Germany' Do you believe that everyone who was not a Jew was a Nazi? In actual fact I believe you would have found people on all points of the spectrum between "Full cooperation with the machinery" to "active resistance to the point of endangering one's existence" Likewise it seems only fair to acknowledge that Fr Thomas Merton seems to have had all sorts of difficulties trying to follow his vocation and that quote more or less reflects his difficulties. Of course you are welcome to your own individual allergic reactions. Some people need to be hospitalized if they eat one peanut. Likewise some people seem to stop hearing anything if some religion-associating word like 'God' appears. Generalizing from specific instance to paradigm is always a dicey business. Now personally I suffer no allergy to the word 'God' but in my younger days I suffered violent reaction to 'pop music' in particular the distortion of an electric guitar. Many years older and (hopefully!) wiser I find that the electric guitar captures Beethoven better than the official version see the two youtube clips at beginning of http://blog.languager.org/2011/02/cs-education-is-fat-and-weak-3.html A similar situation obtains (I believe!) vis-a-vis generic 'Christian priest' vs specific instance Thomas Merton -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its *keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to have "STORE_FAST" translated into another language), there's nothing wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their languages. Just for fun, I used Google Translate to turn a piece of my Python code into French. Some of the results were rather amusing. For example, it turned "mess" (short for "message") into "désordre", and "but" (short for "button") into "mais". It got "for", "in", "if", "else" and "return" right, though! # Original code def ask(mess, responses = ["OK", "Cancel"], default = 0, cancel = -1, wrap_width = 60, **kwds): box = Dialog(**kwds) d = box.margin lb = wrapped_label(mess, wrap_width) lb.topleft = (d, d) buts = [] for caption in responses: but = Button(caption, action = lambda x = caption: box.dismiss(x)) buts.append(but) brow = Row(buts, spacing = d, equalize = 'w') lb.width = max(lb.width, brow.width) col = Column([lb, brow], spacing = d, align ='r') col.topleft = (d, d) if default is not None: box.enter_response = responses[default] else: box.enter_response = None if cancel is not None: box.cancel_response = responses[cancel] else: box.cancel_response = None box.add(col) box.shrink_wrap() return box.present() # Translated code demander def (désordre, réponses = ["OK", "Annuler"], par défaut = 0, annulent = -1, wrap_width = 60, kwds **): boîte de dialogue = (** kwds) d = box.margin lb = wrapped_label (désordre, wrap_width) lb.topleft = (d, d) BUTS = [] pour la légende dans les réponses: mais = Bouton (légende, action = lambda x = légende: box.dismiss (x)) buts.append (mais) Brow = ROW (buts, l'espacement = d, égalisent = 'W') lb.width = max (lb.width, brow.width) col = Colonne ([lb, le front], l'espacement = d, align = 'r') col.topleft = (d, d) si par défaut ne est pas None: box.enter_response = réponses [défaut] d'autre: box.enter_response = Aucun si annuler ne est pas None: box.cancel_response = réponses [Annuler] d'autre: box.cancel_response = Aucun box.add (col) box.shrink_wrap () retourner box.present () -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Mark Lawrence wrote: >> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a >> milk with higher fat content. > > Yersey? Eh, Jersey. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Am 28.02.15 um 02:44 schrieb Chris Angelico: > On Sat, Feb 28, 2015 at 12:32 PM, wrote: >> For example, I've seen someone create a Socket class, then created an >> operator overload that allowed you to "add" a string to your socket to make >> the socket send the string, with the result being a status code indicating >> success or an error. >> > > Why not left shift the socket by that string, the result being the > original socket? At least that has precedent... > Are you trying to pick on C++ streams? I could never understand why anybody has problems with an arrow << that means "put into the left thing" instead of "shift the bits to the left". How often do you use bitshift operations in your programs as opposed to output? Ot would be equally silly to complain, that in Python you divide a string by a tuple, and the modulus gives you a formatted string. Christian -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: > And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its > keywords localized. ChinesePython: http://www.chinesepython.org/english/english.html Teuton: http://www.fiber-space.de/EasyExtend/doc/teuton/teuton.htm -- Steve -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 03/03/2015 04:04, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 17:12:24 + (UTC), Jon Ribbens declaimed the following: On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the other two are just nonsense. Not based on some of what I found in York while on TDY... Where the entries to the old town -- what an American might call a gate -- were all named bar, and the streets passing through those tended to have names ending in gate. "Micklegate Bar Museum", for example, where Micklegate passes through the city wall. Otherside of the old town has Goodramgate turning into Monksgate as it passes through... Monk Bar. Walmgate passes through Walmgate Bar The quote's not even mine -- I encountered it decades ago. Come to sunny Christchurch, Dorset and you encounter the street/district that is simply "Bargates". -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 6:05 PM, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Chris Angelico : > >> Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most >> welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent. > > Or "Farbe" or "couleur" or "väri" or... > > I *have* seen code like that. And I've seen a number of proposals to build Python with its *keywords* localized. While there is a reasonable limit to this (for instance, I wouldn't expect the disassembly of CPython byte-code to have "STORE_FAST" translated into another language), there's nothing wrong with programmers being able to write their code in their languages. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico : > Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most > welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent. Or "Farbe" or "couleur" or "väri" or... I *have* seen code like that. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 4:40 PM, Gregory Ewing wrote: > Chris Angelico wrote: >> >> You want to >> use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be >> easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other >> way. > > > It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about > having more than one spelling of an identifier around > imposing an extra cognitive burden. > > PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because > it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used > in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings > have a similar effect. Aye, but that's only an issue if you use more than one. You're most welcome to use "colour" in a project, just be consistent. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Sturla Molden wrote: I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. There, "a milk" is really an abbreviation for "a type of milk". But people who talk about "a code" don't mean "a type of code", they're using it the way we would say "a program" or "a library". What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. There is, but the number of codes/pieces of code being referenced still equals 1. The difference is more that "this file contains a long Fortran code" suggests the file may contain other things as well, whereas "this file contains one long Fortran code" suggests that's the only thing it contains. Isn't English wonderful? -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano wrote: "please hand all monies to the bursar", I think that's another case of an implied unit, the unit in this case being the money involved in one transaction. but it would be weird to say "please hand five monies to the bursar". It would, but I'm not sure I could explain exactly why. :-) In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one" --, it is the indefinite article. It still means one of something, though. If there's a difference, it's that it's somewhat more vague. "There's a fly in my soup!" is expressing surprise that there are more than zero flies present. You are referring to the first one you happen to see; there might be others, but they're not relevant. Whereas "There is one fly in my soup!" is being precise about the number of flies. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Chris Angelico wrote: You want to use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. It's not a matter of failing to understand, it's about having more than one spelling of an identifier around imposing an extra cognitive burden. PEP 8 recommends against abbreviating identifiers because it's hard to remember which abbreviation is being used in any given context. Multiple alternative spellings have a similar effect. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
MRAB wrote: > There might be a difference, like that between "this program contains a > bug" and "this program contains one bug". Those two sentences mean exactly the same thing in standard American, British and Australian English. Pedants can argue whether "one bug" means *exactly* one bug, not more, or *at least* one bug, but they can make precisely the same arguments about "a bug". -- Steve -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Jon Ribbens wrote:
> On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote:
>> A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street
>
> If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American
> equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the
> other two are just nonsense.
Unfortunately not nonsense.
A pub (short for public drinking house) is another name for a bar. Yes, they
sometimes differ in their connotations ("pubs are decorated in wood, bars in
chrome") but essentially they are the same thing.
A bar is also a rod of solid material, like a steel bar, and "a barrier or
restriction to an action or advance".
https://www.google.com.au/search?q=definition%3Abar
and of course a gate is also a barrier or restriction. Indeed, we have
"tollbar" and "tollgate" as synonyms:
tollbar, tollgate - a gate or bar across a toll bridge or toll road which is
lifted when the toll is paid
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/gate
so a bar is a type of gate. And, sure enough, there is an old meaning of
"gate" which means "a way, road, street, or path".
If you think that's bad, try pronouncing "ghoti" according to standard
English rules:
"gh" sounds like "f", like in "enough" (enuf).
"o" sounds like "i", like in "women" (wimmin).
"ti" sounds like "sh", like in "station" (stashun).
So "ghoti" sounds like "fish".
--
Steven
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Dennis Lee Bieber : >>On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: >>> A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street > > Not based on some of what I found in York while on TDY... Where the > entries to the old town -- what an American might call a gate -- were all > named bar, and the streets passing through those tended to have > names ending in gate. "Micklegate Bar Museum", for example, where > Micklegate passes through the city wall. Otherside of the old town has > Goodramgate turning into Monksgate as it passes through... Monk Bar. > Walmgate passes through Walmgate Bar That meaning ultimately comes from: 3. (Northern England) A street; now used especially as a combining form to make the name of a street. http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/gate#Etymology_2>. That's because the Danes once ruled the place: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danelaw>, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Heathen_Army>. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Mon, 2 Mar 2015 19:51:31 -0800 (PST), Rustom Mody wrote: > >I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing I was replying directly to Marko. I don't think it is possible to establish a standard dialect for variable names in English or any other language. It doesn't even make sense as long as the code clearly communicates its intent. Any attempts at standardizing written language are just bound to failure due to natural cultural resistances, but also the way the spoken and written language evolve isn't going ever to agree with some official authority. As for your Thomas Merton quote, it didn't resonate with me. First I find it hilarious that a 20th century catholic monk speaks of people of faith as existing at the margin of society and accepting risk, particularly in the deeply conservative American society. That's a laugh right there. But the whole comunion thing, the going through God, and the accepting we are all one, is really not my flavor of morning tea. I'm a bit more down to earth and less heavenly oriented. We are all really different individuals, deeply separated by our own minds and sharing only a similar biology. That we can communicate at all, is rather satisfying. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Rustom Mody writes: > And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to > their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication > on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of > communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It > is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. > [… and on and on …] That's amazing. That sounds so deep and resonant. Like the sound of an empty water tank being thumped with a stick. It's rare to see an empty echoing clamour distilled into a salad of words tossed together with no regard for their meaning, quite as well as that. Thank you. Meanwhile, those of us who actually want to communicate will try harder to have our utterances actually mean something, and communicate clearer than the white noise of false profundity. -- \“The deepest sin against the human mind is to believe things | `\ without evidence.” —Thomas Henry Huxley, _Evolution and | _o__)Ethics_, 1893 | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 8:21:53 AM UTC+5:30, Mario Figueiredo wrote: > On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > > >Steven D'Aprano: > > > >> But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be > >> Britons at all. > > > >Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? > > The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming > are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even > though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies). > > I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the > position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary > development language. I dont know what you are saying Mario or even whom you are addressing - Steven or Marko - some seems to apply to one some to the other However... While this exchange is going on here, a friend sent me this: So I stand among you as one who offers a small message of hope, that first, there are always people who dare to seek on the margin of society, who are not dependent on social acceptance, not dependent on social routine, and prefer a kind of free-floating existence under a state of risk. And among these people, if they are faithful to their own calling, to their own vocation, and to their own message from God, communication on the deepest level is possible. And the deepest level of communication is not communication, but communion. It is wordless. It is beyond words, and it is beyond speech, and it is beyond concept. Not that we discover a new unity. We discover an older unity . . . we are already one. But we imagine that we are not. And what we have to recover is our original unity. What we have to be is what we are. Fr. Thomas Merton -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 17:30:42 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >Steven D'Aprano : > >> But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be >> Britons at all. > >Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? The concepts behind an actor performing and a programmer programming are so distinct, I don't think your reply warrants an answer (even though I suspect you would want to draw some cheap analogies). I don't know if you realize who bad your stance looks like from the position of someone who doesn't even use english as a primary development language. You are not telling just Brits they should use your flavored dialect, you are telling everyone else that on top of their efforts to learn the english language, they will have to care about national dialects, if they wish to... how did you put it before?... conform. I'm from a country where we face the same language issues as English. There are many dialects of the Portuguese language. It is spoken officially in 5 continents, it's the second fastest growing language in Europe and it is the fith most spoken language in the world. We tried to solve the problem by officially standardizing the written language between all dialects. There is today an official Portuguese language across all countries that should be a standard for written communication. It is mostly a mixture of the portuguese and brazillian dialects, government-approved by all countries of the CPLP. (As if governments should decide how people speak and write, but whatever). This worked out so well that 10 years later we are still missing formalized plugins for our programs and no one is insterested in doing them. So if I wish to code in standard portuguese (as opossed to pt-PT or pt-BR, for instance), I won't have many options in the way of spell checkers. So good luck to you too trying to impose your en-US flavor of standard english. I'm also wondering how you think your stance works out in community development environments. Namely, how will it look like to everyone else when your next pull request on github includes a project-wide rename of the variables/identifiers analogue, colour and analyse. Or when you let everyone else know how annoyed you are at the Pyjamas development team. Software development bases most of its success in its ability to communicate. Not just ideas, but also code. One of the strengths of Python is, they say, how easy the language communicates its code intentions to a layman. Contrary to what you are thinking, trying to impose your kind of language barriers, stiffles that communication process. By forcing everyone to adapt to a standard dialect you are slowing down the ability of the worldwide community to express their ideas as they have now to learn a written language on top of a programming language, and you are growing the window for errors where before there was none. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 2015-03-03 01:44, Mark Lawrence wrote: On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. Yersey? In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one" --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. No, it wasn't "a code" because not all the Enigma codes were broken. What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the same thing, there is so subtle difference at all. There might be a difference, like that between "this program contains a bug" and "this program contains one bug". -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On 03/03/2015 00:23, Sturla Molden wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. Yersey? In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one" --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. No, it wasn't "a code" because not all the Enigma codes were broken. What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. You might think so but I disagree, in UK English it means one and the same thing, there is so subtle difference at all. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Sturla Molden wrote:
> Steven D'Aprano wrote:
>
>> Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to
>> new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life
>> fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about
>> "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional
>> variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming
>> sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and
>> housework.
>
> I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a
> milk with higher fat content.
A good example of the complexity and subtlety of English grammar. I don't
know enough linguistics to tell you what "a milk" in that sense is called,
but it's not the same as "1 milk", "2 milks" etc. I'm not even sure what
the purpose of the "a" is, since it reads fine without it.
I chalk that up to "English is weird", like the way we sometimes refer to
money as a mass noun ("two buckets of money", not "two monies") and other
times we treat it as a mass plural noun ("please hand all monies to the
bursar", but it would be weird to say "please hand five monies to the
bursar").
Oh, and of course since language is complicated and speakers of language are
lazy, there are contexts where one does say "two milks" as a short-hand,
like we say "two sugars" when we mean "two spoonfuls of sugar" or "serves
of sugar". The unit of measure is implied by context.
> In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word
> "one" --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference:
>
> The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I
> say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could
> break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else.
No. It means that there is one secret code that Turing, and only Turing,
could break, and some unknown number (possibly zero, possibly millions) of
codes that he could not break. Whether other people could break these other
codes is not stated. Whether you say "a code" or "one code" (or "fifteen
codes" for that matter) is irrelevant.
There is a weak implication that if Turing cannot break the other codes,
nobody else could either. That's not necessarily true in real life, but as
a rough rule of thumb, we can reason like this: since there is one code
that Turing can break but others cannot, he must be cleverer at breaking
secret codes than everyone else. If he is cleverer at breaking codes, then
it is unlikely that they could break codes that he cannot. If they could
break an Enigma code, so could he. Therefore, if he cannot break them,
neither can anyone else.
> What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say
> "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference
> in meaning here.
In British/American/Australian English, you wouldn't say either of those.
You would say "a long piece of Fortran code" or "a long example of Fortran
code". Or more likely, "a long Fortran program". Program is counted: there
is no difficulty in B/A/A English to say "I have written 17 programs".
We can substitute "one" for "a" and the meaning remains the same:
"Here is a long example of Fortran code."
"Here is one long example of Fortran code."
In neither case does it imply that there is only one example of Fortran code
which is long in the entire world.
(This is bringing back memories of when I was, oh, four or so, when I got
into a long argument with my teacher that "a hundred" and "one hundred"
were different. You counted "ninety-nine, *a* hundred, a hundred and one, a
hundred and two, ... a hundred and ninety-nine, *one* hundred, one hundred
and one...")
--
Steven
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to > new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life > fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a > code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional > variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming > sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and > housework. I can assure you that in a veterinary sence, Yersey cows will produce a milk with higher fat content. In a lingustic sence the "a" is not a count -- that would be the word "one" --, it is the indefinite article. Here is the difference: The Enigma machine produced a code that only Alan Turing could break. If I say the Enigma machine produced one code that only Alan Turing could break, it means all the other codes could be broken by someone else. What if I say "this file contains a long Fortran code"? Or what if I say "this file contains one long Fortran code"? There is a subtile difference in meaning here. Sturla -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano wrote: I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional variation. I don't think this is confined to Indians. I've noticed that people from a Fortran scientific-computing background tend to use the word that way as well. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-02, sohcahto...@gmail.com wrote: > On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 9:13:21 AM UTC-8, Jon Ribbens wrote: >> On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: >> >A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street >> >> If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American >> equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the >> other two are just nonsense. > > American here. To me, a pub and a bar are different, but similar. > > A bar is where people go to get drinks. They might serve food, but > rarely does anybody actually order some. A pub on the other hand, > has a greater focus on food and is commonly visited to get food > along with their beer. > > Of course, I imagine plenty of fellow Americans would disagree with me. The distinction is nuanced and not well defined, but most British people would think your definition above is certainly not entirely wrong. They're definitely both places primarily for alcohol but which may serve other purposes. If there's more wood and brass it's probably a pub; if there's more glass and chrome and coloured lighting it's probably a bar. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 01/03/2015 17:52, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Mark Lawrence : On 01/03/2015 17:01, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me). However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both of us could stick to American English. Well I'm not going to, so tough, or is that togh? Colour, harbour, tyre, antogonise are the way I spell words, and I'm not changing the habits of a lifetime simply because I'm on a technical site. Wow, a somewhat Chauvinistic attitude, wouldn't you say? The French will learn it. The Germans will learn it. Us Finns will learn it. Only you won't learn it because you won't change the habits of a lifetime. No I wouldn't, autistic is far more accurate. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Monday, March 2, 2015 at 9:13:21 AM UTC-8, Jon Ribbens wrote: > On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > > A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street > > If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American > equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the > other two are just nonsense. American here. To me, a pub and a bar are different, but similar. A bar is where people go to get drinks. They might serve food, but rarely does anybody actually order some. A pub on the other hand, has a greater focus on food and is commonly visited to get food along with their beer. Of course, I imagine plenty of fellow Americans would disagree with me. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-02, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street If each of those is supposed to be English first and then the American equivalent second, then I'm afraid the first one is misleading and the other two are just nonsense. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 08:25:40 -0800, Travis Griggs wrote: > seems like the very smallest of our worries. "There is no egg in eggplant" What the blood heck is eggplant? oh wait you mean aubergine this page is clearly about American English. We are even more obtuse, it stops Johnnie Foreigner knowing what we are up to - seems to be far more effective than Enigma :-) IIRC the Americans managed something similar with the Navaho. -- Falling in love is a lot like dying. You never get to do it enough to become good at it. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
> On Mar 1, 2015, at 5:53 PM, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > > On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 20:16:26 + (UTC), alister > declaimed the following: > >> >> The language is called English, the clue is in the name. interestingly >> most 'Brits' can switch between American English & English without too >> much trouble (I still have a problem with Chips) >> > Okay... Is that a reference to (US) Fries, or US usage reference to > (UK) Crisps. > > Might as well add the confusion of biscuit <> cookie (my biscuits look > like your scones)... And lets not bring up the subject of suspenders... > Bonnets, boots, and lifts. > > A pub's a bar; a bar's a gate; a gate's a street Reminds me of Richard Lederer’s writings. http://www.etni.org.il/farside/crazyenglish.htm Whether or not Brits should sprinkle the letter ‘u’ around for some extra spice, seems like the very smallest of our worries. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
I like "Old Tricks". I learn lots of British english idioms. I'm from NYC On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 10:45 AM, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano > wrote: >> Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American >> English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody >> is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even >> if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American >> English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. > > Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well, > and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries > don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British > resist the encroachment, and rightly so. > >> ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and >> housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit >> to it: three litres of milk... > > And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for > "two sugars" in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to > go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot > chocolate powder, and butter. Not "one butter", because that concept > doesn't exist, but very definitely "two sugars", because the sugar > comes in discrete units. > > (Not "discreet units", mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab > about the sorts of drinks I put it in.) > >> [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next >> guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject >> the parts I don't. > > Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures, > not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go > ahead: Watch "McHale's Navy" and "Yes Minister", and appreciate the > comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your > liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different > styles. > > (Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's > possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by > an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe. > Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her > father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech. > Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.) > > We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome > Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to > write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts > (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with > a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and > British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any > other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code > in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No > problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to > use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be > easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other > way. > > ChrisA > -- > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Joel Goldstick http://joelgoldstick.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Tue, Mar 3, 2015 at 1:39 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American > English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody > is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even > if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American > English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Which, I suspect, is part of why the pound is still alive and well, and hasn't been replaced with the euro. Maybe some other countries don't mind becoming the United States of Europe, but the British resist the encroachment, and rightly so. > ... a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and > housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit > to it: three litres of milk... And yet, oddly enough, you wouldn't bat an eyelid if someone asks for "two sugars" in his tea. Or his hot chocolate... mmm, time for me to go make myself one, I think. Two sugars, a splosh of milk, caramel hot chocolate powder, and butter. Not "one butter", because that concept doesn't exist, but very definitely "two sugars", because the sugar comes in discrete units. (Not "discreet units", mind, although I do trust my sugar not to blab about the sorts of drinks I put it in.) > [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next > guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject > the parts I don't. Part of resisting monoculture is accepting other people's cultures, not just sticking with your own. Embracing that difference. So go ahead: Watch "McHale's Navy" and "Yes Minister", and appreciate the comedy of both - decide for yourself which one you find more to your liking, but know that they both exist, and they represent different styles. (Aside: Even in an American TV show like Once Upon A Time, it's possible for non-American accents to be welcomed. Belle is played by an Aussie, and her distinctive accent is commented on in-universe. Somehow, she picked up an accent that's completely different from her father's and her mother's, but is its own particular style and speech. Maybe she learned the accent from one of her books.) We embrace Unicode in Python 3 because it allows us to welcome Russian, Icelandic, Arabic, and Chinese programmers and allow them to write variable names in their own languages, using their own scripts (or, in the case of Icelandic, a script very similar to ours but with a few additional letters). We should equally embrace American and British English - and Indian English, and Australian English, and any other variant that people want to code in. You want to write your code in North-East Scots? Sure. You want to write your code in Gaelic? No problem (though personally, I prefer garlic to Gaelic). You want to use "colour" instead of "color"? Also not a problem, and should be easy enough for someone to understand who normally spells it the other way. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 02/03/2015 15:32, alister wrote: On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:19:45 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: alister : or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange variation he uses? If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language there is Swedish. I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you are getting from we English (& Brits) I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a mile (say, Finnish -> American English) and you are up in arms about having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English). Marko Because the language is English not American. the Standard for English is by very definition UK English English is spoken badly enough as it is without deliberately speaking it worse! As I said earlier tell a Spaniard they need to learn Latin Spanish because traditional Spanish is not standard & see how far you get. if they are laid back about it try the same thing with he French This http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canarian_Spanish is interesting. -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 14:19:45 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > alister : > >> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in >> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange >> variation he uses? > > If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted > on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. > > Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council > complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language > there is Swedish. > >> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you >> are getting from we English (& Brits) > > I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a > mile (say, Finnish -> American English) and you are up in arms about > having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English). > > > Marko Because the language is English not American. the Standard for English is by very definition UK English English is spoken badly enough as it is without deliberately speaking it worse! As I said earlier tell a Spaniard they need to learn Latin Spanish because traditional Spanish is not standard & see how far you get. if they are laid back about it try the same thing with he French -- Detroit is Cleveland without the glitter. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano : > Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >> Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic >> Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The >> official language there is Swedish. > > I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who > apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing > questions in parliament in his native Welsh. What are the Danish embarrassed about? C++? C#? Delphi? ALGOL 60? BNF? > But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be > Britons at all. Did Hugh Laurie have to turn in his British passport? -- But don't despair! I just ran into this (http://speakmoreclearly.com/>): Do you want to speak English fluently and with an American accent? -> Sick of being asked to repeat yourself? -> Tired of people not understanding you? -> Worried about losing your job or no one hiring you? -> Trouble being understood on the phone? -> Embarrassed or shy in social situations? If you answered ‘yes’ to any of the above questions, then I have great news for you! You CAN change your accent and start speaking English like an American. In less than 15 minutes a day and from the comfort of your own home. You just need to know the RIGHT way to practise. Our Ultimate American Accent Training Package gives you all the exercises and methods you need for improving your English pronunciation. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
(Still OT) Nationalism, language and monoculture [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > alister : > >> or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in >> Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange >> variation he uses? > > If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted > on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. > > Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council > complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language > there is Swedish. I'm reminded of the British Prime Minister David Lloyd George, who apparently made a habit of answering difficult or embarrassing questions in parliament in his native Welsh. >> I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one >> you are getting from we English (& Brits) > > I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a > mile (say, Finnish -> American English) and you are up in arms about > having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English). "Not one inch!" Sometimes the small differences are more important than the big. Your Finnishness is not threatened by learning English, any more than Mark's Britishness would be threatened by him learning Russian. [Now there's a thought... with the historical relationships between Finland and Russia, I wonder whether Finns would be as blasé about using a foreign language if it were Russian rather than English? But I digress.] Whereas the comparatively small differences between British and American English are all the more important because they distinguish the two. Nobody is ever going to mistake Finland and the Finish people for Americans, even if you learn to speak American English. But for Britons to use American English is, in a way, to cease to be Britons at all. Personally, I think that monocultures are harmful and ought to be resisted, whether than monoculture is one-species-of-wheat, one-operating-system, or one-language. The English-speaking world is threatened by American cultural and linguistic monoculture[1], and that's a bad thing. The same applies to the rest of the world, but to a much lesser extent. Having a rich and varied cultural ecosystem is important, and regional differences in language and culture are an essential part in that. Variations in idiom and spelling are a good thing. They open our minds to new possibilities, remind us that we aren't all the same, and keep life fresh. I remember the first time I realised that when Indians talk about "a code" they aren't using "wrong English", they are using a regional variation. In British and American English, "code" in the programming sense[2] is a mass or uncountable noun, like air[3], milk, music and housework. You cannot have "three milks", you have to add some sort of unit to it: three litres of milk, five pieces of music, too much housework, five *pieces of code*. But in Indian English, you can count code: *five codes*. How wonderful! I'll probably never use it myself, but I am enriched just to know it exists. [1] Yes, I watch as many American movies and television shows as the next guy. I'm allowed to take the parts of their culture I approve of and reject the parts I don't. [2] As opposed to the sense of secret codes and ciphers. [3] In the sense of air that we breathe. One can still have "airs and graces", although we rarely quantify just how many airs somebody is putting on. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 03/02/2015 07:38 AM, MRAB wrote: On 2015-03-02 04:49, Dave Angel wrote: On 03/01/2015 08:59 PM, MRAB wrote: On 2015-03-02 01:37, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote The 16 bit address bus permitted addressing of 64k words. On most processors, that was 64k bytes, though I know one Harris had no bytes, but every memory access was 16 bits. It therefore had the equivalent of 128k bytes. Likewise I believe some of the DEC and DG minis had 128k bytes of addressability. I have (or had, not sure where it is!) a manual of the TMS9900 processor, and I'm sure it addresses 64k _bytes_. Wikipedia says "65,536 bytes or 32,768 words". Like I said, on most processors, it was 64k bytes. interestingly enough I know of one architecture which used 128k for the 8-bit Z80, even though that processor only had 16 address lines. Being a server, the code was mostly static, and fit in 64k. But they also wanted 64k for data. So they used one of the processor status lines as a select between two banks of memory. When the processor was fetching an instruction, it got it from bank 0, while if it was fetching or writing data, it went to bank 1. Obviously they had a mode where it read and wrote from bank 0 as data, both for bootstrapping, and for overlays or whatever. -- DaveA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 03/02/15 at 08:59am, alister wrote: > or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in > Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange > variation he uses? > > I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you > are getting from we English (& Brits) > In fact, you would find that most Spaniards, in an international Spanish-speaking context, will tune down their dialectal idiosyncracies and aim for a 'neutral Spanish' of sorts. Manolo -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-02 04:49, Dave Angel wrote: On 03/01/2015 08:59 PM, MRAB wrote: On 2015-03-02 01:37, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote You'd be able to run it on a TI99/4 (in which the BASIC interpreter, itself, was run on an interpreter... nothing like taking the first "16-bit" home computer and shackling it with an interpreted language that was run on an interpreted language) The "16-bit" CPU had a 16-bit address bus (64K address space). If you were going to switch from an 8-bit processor to a 16-bit processor, one of the pluses you'd be looking for would the ability to directly address more than 64K. The 16 bit address bus permitted addressing of 64k words. On most processors, that was 64k bytes, though I know one Harris had no bytes, but every memory access was 16 bits. It therefore had the equivalent of 128k bytes. Likewise I believe some of the DEC and DG minis had 128k bytes of addressability. I have (or had, not sure where it is!) a manual of the TMS9900 processor, and I'm sure it addresses 64k _bytes_. Wikipedia says "65,536 bytes or 32,768 words". Usually, the term 8bit processor was referring to the size of the register(s), not the address bus. All the 8 bit micro-processors had 16 bit address buses. In fact, 4 bit processors generally had 12 to 16 bit address buses as well. So a 4 bit processor with a 16 bit address bus could address 32k bytes, a half byte (a nybble) at a time). The IBM PC's 8088 had an 8 bit data-bus and 20 address lines. But they called it a 16bit processor, to try to distinguish it from 8 bit processors like the 8080. Anyway, it was code compatible with the 8086, which really did have a 16bit data bus and 20 bit address bus. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
alister : > or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in > Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange > variation he uses? If the barber conference language were Latin, and some Spaniard insisted on speaking Western Andalusian, I sure would consider that obnoxious. Similarly, I've heard some Finnish representatives in the Nordic Council complain how the Danish insist on speaking Danish. The official language there is Swedish. > I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one > you are getting from we English (& Brits) I don't understand your reaction. The rest of us are willing to walk a mile (say, Finnish -> American English) and you are up in arms about having to shift a foot (say, Scouse -> American English). Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 20:14:13 -0800, Rustom Mody wrote: > On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: >> Mark Lawrence : >> >> > Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"? If you >> > are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled. That by >> > the way is a British expression that may or may not be used around >> > the Commonwealth. Should we unlearn it to fit in with American >> > English? Two chances, zero or none. >> >> What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me). >> >> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish >> both of us could stick to American English. > > When I was in college, there was this course called ‹Accounting and > Bookkeeping› > It was a disaster since I always accounted on the wrong side of the > ledger. > I guess I only passed because the teacher occasionally also accounted on > the wrong side of the ledger!! > > With due respect Marko, are you accounting on the wrong side of the > ledger? > > If some non-native of English expresses him/herself poorly we still try > to understand – its even in the code of conduct or somethin > > And yet you insist that a Brit (or English or whatever) should change > his ways¹? or as another analogy why don't you (Marco) try telling a Barber in Seville that he should be speaking Latin Spanish not that strange variation he uses? I suspect the reaction you get will be far more severe than the one you are getting from we English (& Brits) -- system has been recalled -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 3:52 AM, Mark Lawrence wrote: >> It's not one that we use out here in the Antipodes... probably a >> British peculiarity. Or perhaps an English peculiarity, but I would >> guess more likely British. >> >> ChrisA >> > > British. Never call me English, my mum was Welsh and would come back from > the grave to haunt you :) Ah, I didn't know you were part Welsh. The name Lawrence is a good English one, and Breamore is itself in England. But I shall strive to remember :) ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 03/01/2015 08:59 PM, MRAB wrote: On 2015-03-02 01:37, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote You'd be able to run it on a TI99/4 (in which the BASIC interpreter, itself, was run on an interpreter... nothing like taking the first "16-bit" home computer and shackling it with an interpreted language that was run on an interpreted language) The "16-bit" CPU had a 16-bit address bus (64K address space). If you were going to switch from an 8-bit processor to a 16-bit processor, one of the pluses you'd be looking for would the ability to directly address more than 64K. The 16 bit address bus permitted addressing of 64k words. On most processors, that was 64k bytes, though I know one Harris had no bytes, but every memory access was 16 bits. It therefore had the equivalent of 128k bytes. Likewise I believe some of the DEC and DG minis had 128k bytes of addressability. Usually, the term 8bit processor was referring to the size of the register(s), not the address bus. All the 8 bit micro-processors had 16 bit address buses. In fact, 4 bit processors generally had 12 to 16 bit address buses as well. So a 4 bit processor with a 16 bit address bus could address 32k bytes, a half byte (a nybble) at a time). The IBM PC's 8088 had an 8 bit data-bus and 20 address lines. But they called it a 16bit processor, to try to distinguish it from 8 bit processors like the 8080. Anyway, it was code compatible with the 8086, which really did have a 16bit data bus and 20 bit address bus. -- DaveA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Rustom Mody : >> However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish >> both of us could stick to American English. > > [...] > > I would say it is wrong side of the ledger because the amount of > culture' invested into a Brit is more than into someone who just > poorly learned the language yesterday. > > In school my most memorable encounters were with Shakespeare, Blake, > Wordsworth [I did not like Keats]. Until he died at 102 my gpa would > recite Longfellow's "Lives of great men" almost as a daily prayer. If > all that gets erased for some tasteless colourless (ok colorless) > internationalese, its a bloody shame. We are not talking about culture here but Python coding, conference keynote addresses at the most "cultured" end of it. Marko -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Sunday, March 1, 2015 at 10:32:00 PM UTC+5:30, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > Mark Lawrence : > > > Are you suggesting that we Brits have a single "home accent"? If you > > are, you need to stand up as your voice is rather muffled. That by the > > way is a British expression that may or may not be used around the > > Commonwealth. Should we unlearn it to fit in with American English? Two > > chances, zero or none. > > What you (or I) speak in our native surroundings is up to you (and me). > > However, when I exhange software engineering ideas with you, I wish both > of us could stick to American English. When I was in college, there was this course called ‹Accounting and Bookkeeping› It was a disaster since I always accounted on the wrong side of the ledger. I guess I only passed because the teacher occasionally also accounted on the wrong side of the ledger!! With due respect Marko, are you accounting on the wrong side of the ledger? If some non-native of English expresses him/herself poorly we still try to understand – its even in the code of conduct or somethin And yet you insist that a Brit (or English or whatever) should change his ways¹? I would say it is wrong side of the ledger because the amount of 'culture' invested into a Brit is more than into someone who just poorly learned the language yesterday. In school my most memorable encounters were with Shakespeare, Blake, Wordsworth [I did not like Keats]. Until he died at 102 my gpa would recite Longfellow's "Lives of great men" almost as a daily prayer. If all that gets erased for some tasteless colourless (ok colorless) internationalese, its a bloody shame. = ¹Reminds of the modern mania for 'rights' Yeah some groups – women, races, skin-colors etc etc etc – have been traditionally have-nots. If the attempt at equalizing is not done in balance instead of equalization we get a swing in the opposite direction and the haves become the have-nots. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 2:18 PM, Paul Rubin wrote: > Steven D'Aprano writes: >> The Aussie replies “Ah yes, I had a car like that once. American-made, is >> it?” > > Is it true that in Australia, the number of the beast is 999? Wouldn't know. Out here, we're not afraid of the beast - why should we be? We have spiders, and snakes, and kangaroos, and weather, and desert, and ants, and spiders, and drop bears, and spiders, and "jelly" (gelignite), and I nearly forgot to mention that we have spiders. If you feel like disposing of an unwanted Beast, you could do worse than deposit him somewhere in the Western Australian desert. It's kinda like sending him to hell, only the postage is cheaper. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: (Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Steven D'Aprano writes: > The Aussie replies “Ah yes, I had a car like that once. American-made, is > it?” Is it true that in Australia, the number of the beast is 999? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
(Still OT) It's not the size of the vocabulary that matters, but what you do with it [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: > Well... when we've got states bigger than some countries... A Texan farmer goes to Australia on vacation. There he meets an Aussie farmer and gets to talking. They walk around the farm a little, and the Aussie shows off his herd of cattle. The Texan immediately replies, “Our Texan longhorns are at least twice as large as your cows.” The Aussie shows off his big wheat field and the Texan says, “In Texas, our wheat fields are ten times as big as that!” Just then a herd of kangaroos hop through the field. The Texan does a double-take and says "What in San Quentin are those?” The Aussie replies “Don’t you have any grasshoppers in Texas?” The Texan recovers quickly and says “Of course we do, I’ve just never seen them that color before. You’ve got a nice farm, but it’s a bit small. Back home, when I drive around the ranch checking the fences, I get in my SUV at 4 in the morning, and don’t get back home until 11 the next night.” The Aussie replies “Ah yes, I had a car like that once. American-made, is it?” -- Steve -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 2015-03-02 01:37, Dennis Lee Bieber wrote: On Sun, 1 Mar 2015 13:43:50 +1100, Chris Angelico declaimed the following: losing performance. Conversely, I'm sure Python could also have been implemented on top of BASIC if someone felt like it, though what the advantages might be I have no idea. But performance is not (or should You'd be able to run it on a TI99/4 (in which the BASIC interpreter, itself, was run on an interpreter... nothing like taking the first "16-bit" home computer and shackling it with an interpreted language that was run on an interpreted language) The "16-bit" CPU had a 16-bit address bus (64K address space). If you were going to switch from an 8-bit processor to a 16-bit processor, one of the pluses you'd be looking for would the ability to directly address more than 64K. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
An injury when I was a sbhoolboy; I was bitten by a bat. (was: Python Worst Practices)
Roy Smith writes: > In article , > Gregory Ewing wrote: > > > But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical, I'm more > > likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar with, which is > > "colour". I can't imagine any English speaker, native or otherwise, > > being unable to cope with that. > > What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"? You mean the letter “C”? Yes, I thought so. Well why not pronounce the letter “C” as though it were the letter “K”? (See https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz2LaJOVAiA> if you have no idea what this is all about.) Alternatively, I could ask you to pronounce “busy” as though it was spelled with an “i”; or pronounce “friend” as though it *doesn't* have an “i”. But that would be asking for sense in English orthography https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2015/02/how-the-english-language-is-holding-kids-back/385291/>. -- \ “Any sufficiently advanced bug is indistinguishable from a | `\ feature.” —Rich Kulawiec | _o__) | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
OT Accents [was Re: Python Worst Practices]
Michael Torrie wrote: > If you want a bit of fun, listen to Patrick Stewart reciting a poem in > his native northern accent. In school they drilled it out of him, I > guess. And then you have people like Alexis Denisof, husband to Alyson Hannigan, best known for playing Wesley Wyndam-Pryce in Buffy and Angel, and for a three second clip in The Avengers movie where he is in such heavy makeup and prosthetics that he is almost unrecognisable. As Wesley, he has such a sexy upper-crust British accent that he could could almost make straight men turn. In real life, he sounds like Kermit the Frog on helium. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 01/03/2015 16:16, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Steven D'Aprano : Marko Rauhamaa wrote: Learn it like everybody else has to. Stockholm Syndrome :-) "I learned English, and so everyone else should too." No, the point is that if everybody else has taken the trouble of learning American English, it shouldn't be too much to ask for the British to make an effort as well. Actually it is the Brits who are bilingual; we can watch British /or/ American TV shows and movies without needing subtitles. It's not always the case the other way around. You have a point that American-English spellings have some domination internationally simply by sheer numbers (in the same way that C-style syntax has unfortunately permeated a great number of languages). But I think there are still a few places which have had a British influence which might still spell colour as "colour" (such as India with a population a mere 4 times as large as the USA). But programming in the UK I'm going to spell variables that include the word "colour" with a "u". I'm sure that any Americans will be able to guess what it means, if they were ever to see my source codes. (BTW "color" gets underlined in red by my spell-checker, another reason to avoid it.) While with any external interfaces that use "color", I often create an alias that uses "colour" (saves time later by not constantly misspelling it). -- Bartc -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On 01/03/2015 21:47, Roy Smith wrote: In article , Gregory Ewing wrote: But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical, I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with that. What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"? It's people who can't pronounce "C" who are the problem, leading to troubles such as Kings Bollege Bambridge. Americans also drop the "u" so it should be "abot" not "abut". -- My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask what you can do for our language. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
In article , Gregory Ewing wrote: > But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical, > I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar > with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English > speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with > that. What abut people who can't pronounce the letter "B"? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
Mario Figueiredo wrote: But could you please point us to the ISO that details the international standard for variable names? Or failing that, to the public discussion that took place and decided American-English is the de-facto language for variable names? American became the standard for variable names the same way most de-facto standards come into being -- by historical accident and network effects. Many of the commonly-used libraries happen to be written by Americans, and programming languages being the way they are, anyone who uses them has to follow suit. When I'm programming I always spell it "color", even when I don't strictly have to, because having two spellings in the same body of code would be too confusing for everyone, myself included. But in documentation, in contexts where it's not critical, I'm more likely to use the spelling I'm most familiar with, which is "colour". I can't imagine any English speaker, native or otherwise, being unable to cope with that. -- Greg -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Mon, 02 Mar 2015 07:26:22 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: > On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:16 AM, alister > wrote: >> Last time I was is the USA I had a local ask me which state London was >> in! (heck I know they only bother with their own history but I though >> we played quite an important role in that) > > See, that wasn't a geographic question, it was one of security alert > level. He wanted to know if London was presently in a state of alarm. > > ChrisA unfortunately no, she didn't and was completely clueless. if fact she made the stereotypical air head in slasher movies look like a genius. -- Some scholars are like donkeys, they merely carry a lot of books. -- Folk saying -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Sun, 01 Mar 2015 22:45:12 +0200, Marko Rauhamaa wrote: > >Fact remains I can easily understand what Chinese, Mexican, Italian, >Russian or Malay colleagues say in English. For some reason, Australian >and Indian speakers don't give me trouble, either. The Irish accent is >borderline, but the British, sad to say, are hopeless. > You should listen to African English speakers... This is probably common among many languages. Not that I have a common understanding of the phenomena, but I can easily draw a parallel to Portuguese. The European Portuguese is harder to understand to folks learning the language than the non Portuguese dialects in Brazil, African countries and even Macau in Asia. This is also an issue among speakers of the language. European Portuguese don't have any trouble understanding dialect speakers in Angola, Brazil, Cape Verde, etc. But the those dialect speakers have an hard time understanding the European Portuguese. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
alister : > The language is called English, the clue is in the name. I don't care what you call it as long as you use the Hollywoodese accent and spelling. > interestingly most 'Brits' can switch between American English & > English without too much trouble I wish they actually did. Not to pick on the British. All native English-speakers seem to suffer from the same problem.(*) Fact remains I can easily understand what Chinese, Mexican, Italian, Russian or Malay colleagues say in English. For some reason, Australian and Indian speakers don't give me trouble, either. The Irish accent is borderline, but the British, sad to say, are hopeless. Marko (*) Why, I speak Finnish in the local dialect; however, I *don't* try my vernacular on any foreigner. The other day, a Russian colleague bravely initiated a dialogue in Finnish. I was careful to speak slowly using the standard dialect. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Python Worst Practices
On Mon, Mar 2, 2015 at 7:16 AM, alister wrote: > Last time I was is the USA I had a local ask me which state London was > in! (heck I know they only bother with their own history but I though we > played quite an important role in that) See, that wasn't a geographic question, it was one of security alert level. He wanted to know if London was presently in a state of alarm. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
