Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Michael Spencer wrote: [...] Allowing quotation, almost anything is possible, e.g., Fred! Where Guido had had had, Had had had had had. Had had had a better effect on the reader or simply fred, where Guido had had had had had had had had had had, had a better effect on the reader M All this remind me about the Member of Parliament who was required to apologise for calling one of his opposite numbers a liar. He did so by reading out the statement I called the Honorable member a liar it is true and I am sorry for it, adding that the Honorable member could insert the punctuation wherever he so chose. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Rocco Moretti wrote: Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and coherent (if not a little tourtured). fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader punctuation, including quote marks, I presume? Quote marks are acceptable, but no more than two words are inside each set. B A D G E R . . . E R S P O I L E R W A R N I N G The accepted way to do it is: Fred, where Guido had had had, had had had had. Had had had had a better effect on the reader. meaning approximately In the place where Guido previously put the word had, Fred had previously put the phrase had had. Fred's choice of phrasing was more appreciated by the reder. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 12:33:07 -0600 in comp.lang.python, Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [...] fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader I've seen this before as bill had had had but will had had had had had had or had had been correct had had had Regards, -=Dave -- Change is inevitable, progress is not. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. S P O I L E R S P A C E (Good grief, I've not done that in *years*.) Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo. I didn't say it was *good* English, but it is *legal* English. I *think* that's similar to the one I know about the cannibalistic behaviour of some oysters, which split open other oysters (to eat them). It starts: Oysters oysters split split. Oysters which oysters split become split. But there's nothing to stop a third set of oysters predating on the ones doing the splitting: Oysters oysters oysters split split split. And so on. My brain hurts too much to work out if you can do the same to the buffaloes. And here endeth today's lesson in recursion. -- \S -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://www.chaos.org.uk/~sion/ ___ | Frankly I have no feelings towards penguins one way or the other \X/ |-- Arthur C. Clarke her nu becomeþ se bera eadward ofdun hlæddre heafdes bæce bump bump bump -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [AMK] You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly. No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept that you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force the other to speak through robots, that one is not far from unspeakable... This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages. Whatever means the maintainer wants to fill his preservation needs, he is free to use them. The problem arises when the maintainer wants imposing his own work methods on others. Let contributors be merely contributors, and learn how to recognise contributions as such and say thank you, instead of trying to turn contributors into maintainers. Either I don't understand what you are saying or you are being a hypocrite. Andrew is saying that he doesn't have time to detail with all the messages that get sent to him personally. What do you propose he should do? I think people expect more that a message saying Thanks for you contribution. PS: Since I don't have time to do anything with it, your message will now be discarded.. Neil -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
The actress Margaret Anglin left this note in the dressing froom of another actress: 'Margaret Anglin says Mrs. Fiske is the best actress in America.' Mrs. Fiske added two commas and returned the note: 'Margaret Anglin, says Mrs. Fiske, is the best actress in America.' Or this, from a George Will column: Huge doctrinal consequences flow from the placing of a comma in what Jesus, when on the cross, said to the thief (Luke 23:43): 'Verily, I say unto thee, This day thou shalt be with me in Paradise' or 'Verily, I say unto thee this day, Thou shalt be with me in Paradise.' The former leaves little room for purgatory. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François Pinard wrote: [A.M. Kuchling] On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500, François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-) It's largely to ensure that the ideas aren't lost. E-mail sits around in an inbox until it gets deliberately deleted or gets lost in a disk crash or system upgrade gone wrong. Or sorted properly by the recipient, the way he sees best fit, in the tracker of his own choice. I know I'm repeating myself, but my point just does not seem to get through. The maintainer should manage his way as a grown up, instead of expecting the world to learn his ways and manage in his place. You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly. No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept that you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force the other to speak through robots, that one is not far from unspeakable... If the message was important, they'll resend it. This is despising contributions. If someone sends me a message which I find important, I do take means so that message does not get lost, and that it will even suvive me for some while. This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages. Whatever means the maintainer wants to fill his preservation needs, he is free to use them. The problem arises when the maintainer wants imposing his own work methods on others. Let contributors be merely contributors, and learn how to recognise contributions as such and say thank you, instead of trying to turn contributors into maintainers. François, you talk of the maintainer as though each piece of code is owned by a single individual. In Python's case this is far from the truth. So, what you say *seems* to equate to If there's a problem with Python that I think should be fixed, I should be able to mail the person I suspect is most likely to maintain that code, and they should be obliged to log the bug or enhancement request in the tracking system. There's also a philosophical question here about who is helping who. One might choose to believe that the contributor is assisting the developer, by pointing out a defect in the developer's code. One might alternatively regard the contributor as a supplicant, who needs the assistance of the developer to get a problem fixed. Finally one might regard the contributor (who benefits from having Python available) and the developer (who gets the kudos of having developed something cool) to be members of a community, prepared to collaborate to achieve something that benefits them both. In the real world people's opinions will have all kinds of other shades as well, of course, but as far as *I'm* concerned, if the developers say please contribute bug reports through Sourceforge then I am happy to do so to make sure they don't fall between the cracks and get lost. YMMV. Obviously the developers are in charge here, but I really don't see how putting more load on them by requiring them to collectively be the only sources of bug input to the tracking system will help get more work out of them. If you wanted to build a better tracking system than the one on SourceForge I could certainly support that, but historically there hasn't been much volunteer effort available to switch to something like Roundup which might be preferred. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl, English is just par for the course. One of my favourite examples of obfuscated English is this grammatically correct sentence: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. And they say English is a hard language to understand :-) On the other hand, for programmers who don't like obfuscated anything, English can be as precise and elegant as anything in Lisp or Python. Treat English as a programming language: learn the rules of syntax and grammar, and read examples of master writers to learn the best idioms, and you can't go wrong. But if you try to learn English from Usenet... *shudders* -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano wrote: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom! Mushroom! /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 21:05:46 -0800, rurpy wrote: If one is required to buy a book to use free software, One is *not* required to buy a book to use free software. It isn't compulsory. it is not really free, is it? What part of you may use this FREE software for FREE is too difficult for you to understand? If you want to calculate the total cost of ownership for (say) using Python, then by all means include the cost of labour, electricity to run your computer, depreciation on that computer, courses to learn how to program, etc. All these are valid costs. But none of them are the cost of Python, which is free. It really isn't a scam, nobody is going to come knocking at your door with a surprise bill for using Python. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages. François Whatever means the maintainer wants to fill his preservation François needs, he is free to use them. The problem arises when the François maintainer wants imposing his own work methods on others. François, that's not it at all. It's not our fault that SF doesn't support email-based tracker interaction. It's our fault that we chose SF, but it was the best overall choice at the time (there were more considerations than just bug tracking) and now we're sort of stuck with it because for a number of reasons we've been unable to move away from it. Here's the scenario we have to use today to collect emailed requests and put them in SF: * Kind user notices a problem and posts a message somewhere, maybe to c.l.py or to another Python-related list or by direct email to a developer. * Someone - maybe nobody, but maybe more than one person - notices the request and thinks, better add that to SF so it doesn't get lost. * That person visits SF and submits a ticket. Now, consider some of the problems this scheme is fraught with: * Maybe nobody notices it at all. It might have been buried deep in another thread that no Python developer happened to read in its entirety. Bummer. It's been lost until the next time someone notices and posts a similar request. * Maybe more than one person notices. Bummer. Now we have duplicates. Worse yet, some might have been posted as feature requests, some as bug reports. It also may not be obvious that they are duplicate without careful checking. * The multiple reports might contain different useful perspectives on the problem. Bummer. SF doesn't allow you to easily merge two requests. You have to manually transfer the information from one to the other and close the one. * Maybe the original post generates further responses in that venue that would have been useful to have with the original report. Most will probably never find their way to the tracker. Bummer. They got lost. * Maybe the original requester's email gets missed in the process (or the problem isn't addressed immediately and the user has discarded the original address because it's spammed so heavily and moved on to a new one) and the Python developers need more info but they can't contact the requester. Bummer. The problem isn't adequately addressed. * Finally, instead of one person spending a couple minutes submitting a report, several people will have spent their volunteer time, and there's a good chance that the report is not any better (perhaps even worse) than if the original requester had simply submitted the request directly to SF. I know, we have to take these steps occasion. When bug reports have to be moved from another tracker to the Python tracker some of these issues arise. We've incorportated bug reports from the Debian bug tracker that way and have migrated python-mode requests from the Python project to the python-mode project (both on SF). It can be a pain. The Python developers are not being lazy. I would love it if there was an email interaction mode with the SF trackers, but there isn't. I'll repeat what I wrote yesterday in response to an earlier message in this thread: I wish either a) SourceForge supported email interaction with their trackers or b) someone would finish off the Roundup issue tracker http://roundup.sourceforge.net/ for python.org. I doubt if anyone here can do anything about the first barrier, but if you know something about Roundup (or would like to learn about it) and would like to contribute something non-documentational that would really have a direct, positive impact on the Python community, send a note to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On 12/7/05, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But none of them are the cost of Python, which is free. It really isn't a scam, nobody is going to come knocking at your door with a surprise bill for using Python. Well, there is the PSU's Spanish Inquisition division. Last week they barged into my office, quite unexpectedly, armed with cushions and -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Real people have real names. Using your real name on the net makes you less virtual to the people you communicate with. on the other hand, http://www.python.org/doc/Humor.html#timbot2 /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Tony Meyer wrote: This makes no sense. If you want to complain about Python, try a Perl list. Why would a list dedicated to discussion about/help with a language need complaints about the language? Huh?!? Usually people complain because they need help or feel that things can be improved. You might want to consider the difference between complaining and constructive criticism and suggestions, and which are likely to get better responses. In the case of programming languages, I don't see any real difference between something being a 'constructive criticism' and a 'complaint'. Why, oh why, do so many programmers insist on elevating software tools they are using to the status of a *religion* such that they feel personally offended when someone badmouths the language or tool they are using??? Anyone can badmouth Python and things associated with all they want, the only time it would even begin to bother me is only if these were false accusations or there is a dishonest agenda behind it. If the complaints are untrue, then I'd just be laughing at others' ignorance, not be offended by it. If it is an honest complaint arising out of personal experience with the language, then certainly there is a need to examine what can be improved. I generally don't see any need to feel uncomfortable with strident whining against Python because the only thing being attacked here is a software tool, not persons. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom! Mushroom! Thank you, I really needed that stuck in my head. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On 2005-12-07, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl, English is just par for the course. One of my favourite examples of obfuscated English is this grammatically correct sentence: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Why the goofy-looking capitalization? Are the 2nd and 3rd occurances of Buffalo referring to the city? -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! All of life is a blur at of Republicans and meat! visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl, English is just par for the course. As it happens, there appears to be pretty weak correlation between proficiency in programming and proficiency in writing -- SOME excellent programmers are great writers too, but, I would guess, just roughly the same percentage as in the general popularion (i.e., deucedly few). Alex -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FWIW I find Python's docs to be OK at best, with some horrible parts, and a lot of mediochre to poor parts. I myself have no big beef about Python's docs, but you're certainly not the first one to complain about them. Xah Lee rants very heavily against the quality against Python's docs and considers many sections of it as written in a manner more to show-off one's knowledge of jargon rather than to explain things properly. I don't really notice that but this could be because I'm already quite comfortable with jargon at the level it is used in the Python docs (or maybe I'm one of those highfalutin' chaps as well ;-D). Seriously though, sometimes jargon is necessary in order to put across a point concisely and accurately so its use cannot always be considered gratuitous. The only problem I have with Python docs is that for most of the the standard library API documentation, the function calls are not organized very well (i.e. I don't believe they are alphabetized or ordered in any intutive manner). -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 07:50:14 -0800, Alex Martelli wrote: Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl, English is just par for the course. As it happens, there appears to be pretty weak correlation between proficiency in programming and proficiency in writing -- SOME excellent programmers are great writers too, but, I would guess, just roughly the same percentage as in the general popularion (i.e., deucedly few). If you know any links to real research on this, I'd love to learn more. I'm always amazed and perplexed at how hot-shot programmers who would never forget a colon or a brace can be so slap-dash about using proper punctuation and grammar in English. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 15:29:07 +, Grant Edwards wrote: On 2005-12-07, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 19:36:58 -0800, BartlebyScrivener wrote: Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. Oh come on now! For the kinds of minds who enjoy obfuscated C or Perl, English is just par for the course. One of my favourite examples of obfuscated English is this grammatically correct sentence: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Why the goofy-looking capitalization? Are the 2nd and 3rd occurances of Buffalo referring to the city? The punctuation is important. Yes, they refer to the city. (Which reminds me of the old joke about capitalisation being the difference between I helped my Uncle Jack off a horse and I helped my Uncle jack off a horse.) For those who don't know, buffalo is also a verb meaning to overwhelm or intimidate. S P O I L E R S P A C E Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo. I didn't say it was *good* English, but it is *legal* English. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:45:04 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote: Steven D'Aprano wrote: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom! Mushroom! Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack). I asked my missus about this one, she being much better at English grammar than I am, and she thinks the badger/mushroom sentence is a wind-up. Is she right? -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo. And to do a small simplification on it, to illustrate just how painful that sentence really is, the semantically equivalent version: N = buffalo from Buffalo (N [that] N buffalo) buffalo N. The dropping of the [that] is legal, if sometimes ambiguous, in English. I didn't say it was *good* English, but it is *legal* English. Which is why natural language programming's never going to take off. :) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano wrote: S P O I L E R S P A C E Buffalo from the city of Buffalo, which are intimidated by buffalo from Buffalo, also intimidate buffalo from Buffalo. Did you mean: Bagder from the city of Badger, who is pestered by a badger from Badger, also pesters badger from Badger. Mushroom expands rapidly! (Argh! Snake!) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 11:45:04 +0100, Fredrik Lundh wrote: Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom! Mushroom! Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack). http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/ And now back to your regularly scheduled newsgroup, already in progress. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven D'Aprano wrote: Did you mean: Badger badger Badger badger badger badger Badger badger Mushroom! Mushroom! Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack). I asked my missus about this one, she being much better at English grammar than I am, and she thinks the badger/mushroom sentence is a wind-up. Is she right? http://www.badgerbadgerbadger.com/ (make sure your speakers are on) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steven I'm always amazed and perplexed at how hot-shot programmers who Steven would never forget a colon or a brace can be so slap-dash about Steven using proper punctuation and grammar in English. That's because there's no equivalent to a compiler or interpreter preventing them from speaking or writing. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
One of my favourite examples of obfuscated English is this grammatically correct sentence: Buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo buffalo buffalo Buffalo buffalo. The punctuation is important. Reminds me of this old classic: Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and coherent (if not a little tourtured). fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Rocco Moretti wrote: Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and coherent (if not a little tourtured). fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader punctuation, including quote marks, I presume? it's not time to bring out d'ä ä e å, å i åa ä e ö yet, I hope? /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Rocco Moretti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reminds me of this old classic: Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and coherent (if not a little tourtured). fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader I'd like to thank my parents, Ayn Rand and God. -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck. --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Fredrik Lundh wrote: Rocco Moretti wrote: Insert punctuation capitalization to make the following a correct and coherent (if not a little tourtured). fred where guido had had had had had had had had had had had a better effect on the reader punctuation, including quote marks, I presume? it's not time to bring out d'ä ä e å, å i åa ä e ö yet, I hope? /F Allowing quotation, almost anything is possible, e.g., Fred! Where Guido had had had, Had had had had had. Had had had a better effect on the reader or simply fred, where Guido had had had had had had had had had had, had a better effect on the reader M -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack). I always loved the demonstration that English requires backtracking: The old man the ship. mike -- Mike Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/ Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Wed, 07 Dec 2005 17:15:03 -0500, Mike Meyer wrote: Fredrik Lundh [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Er... no, I can't parse that. I suffered a Too Much Recursion error about the third Badger (I only have a limited runtime stack). I always loved the demonstration that English requires backtracking: The old man the ship. Linguists call that garden path sentences, because they lead the reader/listener up the garden path. Here are some more examples: The horse raced past the barn fell. The man who hunts ducks out on weekends. The cotton clothing is usually made of grows in Mississippi. The prime number few. Fat people eat accumulates. The tycoon sold the offshore oil tracts for a lot of money wanted to kill JR. -- Steven. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 12:19:13 +1100, Steven D'Aprano [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Linguists call that garden path sentences, because they lead the reader/listener up the garden path. Here are some more examples: [ examples snipped ] And the ever-popular, ever-ambiguous: Women can fish. Regards, Dan -- Dan Sommers http://www.tombstonezero.net/dan/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl, whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're asking here. rurpy For perl and C, yes, that's (close to) what I'm telling you. rurpy Perl I learned exclusively from the man pages, before WWW. I rurpy used it for 10 years before I ever bought a printed book. C I rurpy learned exclusively from the KR book. That's about the same for me, except Perl never stuck. rurpy I tried to learn Python from the official docs but found it rurpy impossible. I did as well, though the docs as they existed in 1993 or so (that is pre-Lutz, pre-Beasley). rurpy I bought Beasley's book (I think this may have predated rurpy Martelli's book but I don't remember) which I thought quite good rurpy and which I still turn to before the Python docs in most cases. Like other free software, you can choose to figure things out yourself (use the source Luke) or pay someone to help you out. I'm not using this as an excuse for poor Python docs. rurpy That's a very good list and I will save a copy, thanks. But what rurpy does it have to do with Python's documentation? I'm sure you could find similar lists for Perl, C, Ruby, Tcl, Java, C++, C#, etc. Does that mean their documentation stinks? Maybe. Maybe not. It just means a lot of people have somewhat different ways of tackling the same problem. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl, whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're asking here. rurpy For perl and C, yes, that's (close to) what I'm telling you. rurpy Perl I learned exclusively from the man pages, before WWW. I rurpy used it for 10 years before I ever bought a printed book. C I rurpy learned exclusively from the KR book. That's about the same for me, except Perl never stuck. rurpy I tried to learn Python from the official docs but found it rurpy impossible. I did as well, though the docs as they existed in 1993 or so (that is pre-Lutz, pre-Beasley). rurpy I bought Beasley's book (I think this may have predated rurpy Martelli's book but I don't remember) which I thought quite good rurpy and which I still turn to before the Python docs in most cases. Like other free software, you can choose to figure things out yourself (use the source Luke) or pay someone to help you out. I'm not using this as an excuse for poor Python docs. rurpy That's a very good list and I will save a copy, thanks. But what rurpy does it have to do with Python's documentation? I'm sure you could find similar lists for Perl, C, Ruby, Tcl, Java, C++, C#, etc. Does that mean their documentation stinks? Maybe. Maybe not. It just means a lot of people have somewhat different ways of tackling the same problem. Skip Skip: good points orig qvetcher: Well, I won't have time til, maybe early 2007 to debate the meaning of free software,official docs, is buying KR buying a book? In the meantime, use the resources, Luke (i think i've been on usenet too long... signing out) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Mon, 05 Dec 2005 20:56:50 GMT, Bengt Richter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: A little more effort could present the referrer page with clickable paragraphs and other elements, to zoom in to what the commenter wants to comment on. And an automatic diff could be prepared for editors, and the submitted info could go in a structured file for automated secure web access by editors to ease review and presumably sometimes pretty automatic docs update. Adherence to submission guidelines could be enforced somewhat by form checks etc. A *little* more effort? This is obviously some strange new definition of little. I'd love to see such a system, but it would be a significant effort to build such a system, and the Python developers do not have the spare manpower to do it. It would be a great volunteer project for someone to undertake, but I don't think Fred Drake or anyone else has the spare CPU cycles to work on it. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
Hmm, I though he explained it: 1) Not using your real name. 2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address. In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors of crankness. aahz I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this aahz canard about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's aahz quite clear that many many people have been active on the Net aahz *and* taken seriously using names that aren't what you'd call a aahz real name. As the person who raised this particular flag, I will note a few things: 1. Monty Python humor aside, this is generally a serious mailing list and newsgroup. In my experience, most people deal professionally with others of like interests by using their real names. 2. While I haven't been to many PyCons, I've been to enough to have met many Python folk. Hell, maybe I've met rurpy and don't even know it. Real people have real names. Using your real name on the net makes you less virtual to the people you communicate with. 3. I'm an Internet dinosaur. I date from the time before l33t speak, the Morris worm, spam and Windows increased the need for people to hide behind virtual masks and throw away email addresses every few months. At the dawn of time, basically everyone used their real names. It's probably just my misunderstanding about how people use avatars on the net nowadays, but I still expect professional people to communicate profesionally. That includes using real names. For completeness, though I usually don't here, my full sig: -- Skip Montanaro Katrina Benefit Concerts: http://www.musi-cal.com/katrina [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500, François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-) It's largely to ensure that the ideas aren't lost. E-mail sits around in an inbox until it gets deliberately deleted or gets lost in a disk crash or system upgrade gone wrong. Usenet posts fall out of the news spool and get buried in Google's archives. For example, here are the oldest messages in my mailbox: 1 Mar 24 Whitesell, Ken (3.5K) [PyCON-Organizers] Feedback from a first- 2 Mar 28 Martin Maney(1.4K) Improving The Python DB-API interface 3 T Mar 28 MW Mike Weiner (1.0K) RE: [Pycon2005-attendees] Found items 4 + Mar 28 Mark Wittner(0.8K) *¬ 5 + Mar 29 Anna Ravenscrof (0.9K) 6 s+ Mar 28 David Goodger (1.4K) Re: Q. about Emacs on MacOS 7 + Apr 04 Neal Norwitz(250K) Re: PyCon treasury question 8 Apr 28 Thorsten Leemhu (0.7K) python-crypto RIPEMD160 and SHA256 not 64 9 + May 01 nemir nemiria (0.4K) regular expression how-to suggestion. 10 May 07 Brian Hook (0.3K) pycrypto 11 May 23 John Lambert (W (3.7K) python howto: regular expressions - issue 12 T Jun 01 Tim Parkin (2.5K) pydotorg redesign 13 T Jun 02 Neal Norwitz(2.3K) Re: [Python-Dev] Vestigial code in thread 14 + Jun 09 Jacob Rus (0.5K) python regular expression howto 15 Jun 17 Zed Lopez (0.5K) [pct] decrypting a ciphertext with an RSA 16 Jun 21 Skip Montanaro (1.3K) Re: [Pydotorg] Python Homepage: possible 17 Jun 27 Osvaldo Santana (0.7K) [marketing-python] Python Powered in Core 18 + Jul 09 Martin Kirst(0.3K) pycrypto pre build binaries for windows, 19 Jul 10 Jeff Rush (0.9K) [PyCON-Organizers] Two Good Developments 20 Jul 13 [EMAIL PROTECTED] (2.5K) Re: [Quixote-users] Quixote 2 Docs 21 T Jul 15 Nick Jacobson (0.4K) py3k #2 from Martin Maney is a suggestion about a web page I have on the DB-API. #8 is a pycrypto bug report; I think the bug is fixed now, but would have to check. #9 and #11 are suggestions for the regex HOWTO. #10, #15, #18 could be suggestions, bug reports, or questions; hope they're not questions or bugs, because the chance of them being answered is zero at this point. You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly. True, but that's very hard; there's always newer e-mail coming in. Do less? I'd love to, but that doesn't seem to be a viable option. I could just delete all this mail, but I still have the hope of someday doing a rewrite pass on, say, the regex howto, going through all the suggestions and making some changes accordingly. I am, however, drifting toward the Linus Torvalds approach of mail handling: delete messages after six months. If the message was important, they'll resend it. A pity that it means Martin's suggestions, and Thorsten's bug, and Nemir's suggestion, get discarded. This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages. There, at least their content is available to someone else; if someday, someone else does a new regex howto, they could use the suggestions and patches that have accumulated over time. --amk -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2005-12-06, Aahz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, I though he explained it: 1) Not using your real name. 2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address. In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors of crankness. The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot). I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this canard about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's quite clear that many many people have been active on the Net *and* taken seriously using names that aren't what you'd call a real name. (People named piglet, tigger, and pooh, just for example, who were active long before I showed up. Not to mention piranha.) I didn't said it was 100% reliable, but in most of the technical groups there sure seemed to be a good correlation beetween screen names and kooks/trolls. My point is that I do not think the correlation has changed significantly over the last fifteen years that I've been observing. There is still a moderate correlation between screen names and trollish behavior (just as there was historically); there is still a high enough chance that people are using a screen name for reasons that have nothing to do with trollishness that it should never be used as a primary reason for selecting or rejecting posts from a person (just as it always was historically). For that matter, I have no evidence that your name is Grant Edwards. If I really cared, I could find people I know in Minneapolis to look you up... IOW, it just makes sense to me to skip the whole name issue and simply respond to people's posts (for some strange reason, I have a vested interest ;-). -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck. --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[A.M. Kuchling] On Tue, 6 Dec 2005 00:05:38 -0500, François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-) It's largely to ensure that the ideas aren't lost. E-mail sits around in an inbox until it gets deliberately deleted or gets lost in a disk crash or system upgrade gone wrong. Or sorted properly by the recipient, the way he sees best fit, in the tracker of his own choice. I know I'm repeating myself, but my point just does not seem to get through. The maintainer should manage his way as a grown up, instead of expecting the world to learn his ways and manage in his place. You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly. No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept that you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force the other to speak through robots, that one is not far from unspeakable... If the message was important, they'll resend it. This is despising contributions. If someone sends me a message which I find important, I do take means so that message does not get lost, and that it will even suvive me for some while. This is why things need to go into public trackers, or wiki pages. Whatever means the maintainer wants to fill his preservation needs, he is free to use them. The problem arises when the maintainer wants imposing his own work methods on others. Let contributors be merely contributors, and learn how to recognise contributions as such and say thank you, instead of trying to turn contributors into maintainers. -- François Pinard http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: You may suggest that I should process my e-mail more promptly. No, I'm not suggesting you how to work, no more that I would accept that you force me into working your way. If any of us wants to force the other to speak through robots, that one is not far from unspeakable... In the old days, it was possible to post stuff to Python's sourceforge pages without logging in. That was turned off for various reasons that weren't bogus, but that didn't strike me as overwhelmingly compelling. Maybe that could be revisited, at least for the category of documentation bugs and patches. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might turn up something useful? Well, what do you know? 2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds) 1. HowTo/Sorting 2. SortingListsOfDictionaries rurpy Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the rurpy wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort rurpy and got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings. Probably. There are two search buttons, Title and Text. Always try the Title search first, as it only searches page titles. If that is unhelpful, then try the Text search. That searches the bodies of the pages. I generally never use that search, preferring instead to use Google's site:wiki.python.org ... restricted search which is going to apply their page rank algorithms to the hits (and be faster to boot). I don't know how hard it would be to modify the wiki's Text button so it executes the appropriate Google search. Probably not too hard. I'll look. rurpy Well, I'm not totally sure but I think I would be willing to a rurpy least try contributing something. A large amount of the time I rurpy waste when writing Python programs is directly attributable to rurpy poor documentation. (To be fair Python is not the only software rurpy with this problem.) rurpy But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself rurpy is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to rurpy sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people rurpy willing to openly point out python's flaws. Documentation is rurpy certainly one of them. And I was correcting a posting that rurpy explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that rurpy Howto. That was just plain wrong. Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only way you contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or not) will be discounted. The preferred way to correct problems with the documentation is to submit a bug report to SourceForge. Many of the active developers (including those who do write most of documentation) don't necessarily track c.l.py closely, so postings here often will get lost because people can't attend to them immediately. The problem with marching in here and saying fix the docs is that you are an unknown quantity (I certainly don't recognize your email address and as far as I've seen you never sign your posts. I don't believe I've ever seen contributions from you either. (Can't double-check right now because SourceForget is basically unresponsive.) The combination makes you look suspiciously like a troll. I doubt that's the case. Troll detectors are notorious for generating false positives. Still, my threat assessment level got raised. Operating under the rurpy's-not-a-troll assumption, your posts suggest to me that you don't understand how Python is developed. Behind the scenes lots of documentation *does* get written. In my experience it hass generally not been written by people who whine, fix the docs. In short, there seems to be no shortage of people willing to castigate the Python developers for poor documentation. There does appear to be a shortage of people willing to actually roll up their sleeves and help. The other thing to remember is that most of the people who wind up writing the documentation don't personally need most of the documentation they write. After all, they are generally the authors of code itself and are thus the experts in its use. It's tough to put yourself in the shoes of a novice, so it's tough to write documentation that would be helpful for new users. It's extremely helpful if new users submit documentation patches as they figure things out. It's generally unnecessary to write large tomes. Often all that's needed is a few sentences or an example or two. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only way you contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or not) will be discounted. That is quite interesting, if it is true. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only way you contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or not) will be discounted. bonono That is quite interesting, if it is true. Let me rephrase. The discounting I referred to is largely subconcious. When it is concious it's a roll of the eyes or a thought like, Oh that whiner again. I don't have time for this right now. And the 'd' key gets hit. I didn't mean to imply some sort of smoke-filled backroom where the developers decide whose inputs to listen to. Everybody applies such filters whether they think about it or not. Here are a couple of mine: Xah Lee? Hit the 'd' key. Tim Peters? Read it no matter what the subject says. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
It's tough to put yourself in the shoes of a novice, so it's tough to write documentation that would be helpful for new users. It's extremely helpful if new users submit documentation patches as they figure things out. It's generally unnecessary to write large tomes. Often all that's needed is a few sentences or an example or two. Yes, well, regardless of your beef with the person who complained about documentation, I respectfully submit that it is not so easy to help out with documentation. I'm a professional writer and author with a keen interest in open source, but the moment you look to contribute or try to help with the documentation you are asked to learn LaTex or DocBook, which, I'm sorry, I am not going to do. Authors and writers are usually drawn to open source software by their love of plain text. Even veteran Linux users have a lot of trouble with LaTex, so the writers, who perhaps would be willing to help with writing in exchange for help with programming, are unable to do so without learning yet another arcane and foreign mark-up language, which frankly won't be useful in any other writing endeavor. How about a compromise, like having documents submitted in html or some other system that is more cross platform than LaTex? bs -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Tim Peters? Read it no matter what the subject says. A-men! -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck. --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, well, regardless of your beef with the person who complained about documentation, I respectfully submit that it is not so easy to help out with documentation. I'm a professional writer and author with a keen interest in open source, but the moment you look to contribute or try to help with the documentation you are asked to learn LaTex or DocBook, which, I'm sorry, I am not going to do. This is not true. You are welcome to submit plain text patches; reST patches are even better. There has been a lot of confusion on this point in the past (to which I responded by submitting a bug report and getting the docs about submitting patches changed). Can you point out where you're getting this impression from so we can make further improvements to the process? Or do I (and others) simply need to keep repeating this point endlessly? -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck. --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Go to Python.org Click on DEVELOPERS The lead sentence says: Contributors and potential contributors should read Documenting Python, which describes in details the conventions and markup used in creating and maintaining the Python documentation. The CVS trunk version is the recommended version for contributors, regardless of which Python branch is being modified. The link takes you straight to a primer on LaTex. Did I miss something? bs -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
BartlebyScrivener wrote: ...a reasonable description of why he felt he had to learn LaTeX ... Did I miss something? At the bottom of most pages of the python docs is a link to: About the Python Documentation where it says (among other things): If you find specific errors in this document, please report the bug at the Python Bug Tracker at SourceForge. If you are able to provide suggested text, either to replace existing incorrect or unclear material, or additional text to supplement what's already available, we'd appreciate the contribution. There's no need to worry about text markup; our documentation team will gladly take care of that -- -Scott David Daniels [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Thank you. I shall try that the next time I see something in the documentation for beginners. Generally the Python docs are quite good, in my opinion. I was merely taking issue with the poster who suggested that Python novices and nonprogrammers should complain less and contribute more. It's not immediately apparent how to contribute. And if you go looking via the main page you end up in a LaTex tutorial. bs -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On 5 Dec 2005 10:53:36 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Aahz) wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, well, regardless of your beef with the person who complained about documentation, I respectfully submit that it is not so easy to help out with documentation. I'm a professional writer and author with a keen interest in open source, but the moment you look to contribute or try to help with the documentation you are asked to learn LaTex or DocBook, which, I'm sorry, I am not going to do. This is not true. You are welcome to submit plain text patches; reST patches are even better. There has been a lot of confusion on this point in the past (to which I responded by submitting a bug report and getting the docs about submitting patches changed). Can you point out where you're getting this impression from so we can make further improvements to the process? Or do I (and others) simply need to keep repeating this point endlessly? With all due respect, ISTM submission of comments and additions to docs.python.org web pages could be made easier. There is a link at the bottom of many/most doc pages (all?) to http://docs.python.org/lib/about.html ISTM it would be easy to have an addditional clickable submit-comment link to e.g. a generated framed page with the referrer doc page on top and a comment text box at the bottom (or whatever looks good, with scrolling for view of orig doc page), to make it easy to comment. A few check boxes could categorize as to spelling/typo corrections vs adding helpful links or cross references, vs wiki references, vs just griping, vs adding whole sections, etc. A little more effort could present the referrer page with clickable paragraphs and other elements, to zoom in to what the commenter wants to comment on. And an automatic diff could be prepared for editors, and the submitted info could go in a structured file for automated secure web access by editors to ease review and presumably sometimes pretty automatic docs update. Adherence to submission guidelines could be enforced somewhat by form checks etc. For general volunteering, a page could be generated automatically showing counts of failed search subjects. Search could be modified with a form to log a gripe/suggestion about a failed search, that would also be accessible. The failed search-term count display could also show a count of associated comments. We could agree on newspost tag-lines to enable automatic harvesting of gripes, topic suggestions, links, etc from c.l.p newslist archives. E.g., [BeginPythonDocsHarvest] (automatically harvestable info to go here, format TBD, but maybe rfc2822 could be looked for, or XML or rest etc?) [EndPythonDocsHarvest] E.g, to add a link to this (the one you are reading) post/thread to a database of ref links for various doc pages that would ultimately show up as a single clickable [refs] item at the bottom of pages that have refs, one could tag a post with something like [BeginPythonDocsHarvest] LinkToThisThread: http://docs.python.org/about.html [EndPythonDocsHarvest] I guess I better stop ;-) Regards, Bengt Richter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Go to Python.org Click on DEVELOPERS The lead sentence says: Contributors and potential contributors should read Documenting Python, which describes in details the conventions and markup used in creating and maintaining the Python documentation. The CVS trunk version is the recommended version for contributors, regardless of which Python branch is being modified. The link takes you straight to a primer on LaTex. Did I miss something? The Documenting Python link takes you to a page that starts like this - NB. the last sentence of the abstract: Documenting Python Fred L. Drake, Jr. PythonLabs Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Release 2.5a0 August 9, 2005 Abstract: The Python language has a substantial body of documentation, much of it contributed by various authors. The markup used for the Python documentation is based on LaTeX and requires a significant set of macros written specifically for documenting Python. This document describes the macros introduced to support Python documentation and how they should be used to support a wide range of output formats. This document describes the document classes and special markup used in the Python documentation. Authors may use this guide, in conjunction with the template files provided with the distribution, to create or maintain whole documents or sections. If you're interested in contributing to Python's documentation, there's no need to learn LaTeX if you're not so inclined; plain text contributions are more than welcome as well. -- nick (nicholas dot dokos at hp dot com) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thank you. I shall try that the next time I see something in the documentation for beginners. Generally the Python docs are quite good, in my opinion. I was merely taking issue with the poster who suggested that Python novices and nonprogrammers should complain less and contribute more. It's not immediately apparent how to contribute. And if you go looking via the main page you end up in a LaTex tutorial. Just by-the-way: Actually the Python docs use a really restricted range of LaTeX commands, so you really need know *nothing* about LaTeX even if you *do* go to the trouble of supplying LaTeX markup. Just follow what you see in the files in eg. python/trunk/Doc/lib/lib*.tex (if you scan through the list of markup available in the 'Documenting Python' manual, even better), and be sure to warn of the fact that you're a LaTeX newbie when uploading patches so committers know what they're getting. (My advice is don't try to *compile* the docs unless you're ready for some pain, though -- last time I looked it was quite unpleasant to get it working.) Also, note that Python is now in SVN, no longer in CVS: http://svn.python.org/view/python/trunk/Doc/lib/ http://svn.python.org/projects/python/trunk/Doc/lib/ http://www.python.org/dev/devfaq.html#subversion-svn http://docs.python.org/doc/doc.html John -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Tony Meyer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly point out python's flaws. This makes no sense. If you want to complain about Python, try a Perl list. Why would a list dedicated to discussion about/help with a language need complaints about the language? 1. So group readers might have advance warning of problem they may run into. 2. To give potential adopters of Python a more even handed view of the language. 2. So developers will have a better idea of the problems the user base is actually having with Python. 3. To motivate those who are looking for a way to contribute. 3. So that people who want to express an honest opinion in an open forum won't feel intimidated. I could probably think of more but I'm tired of typing. I propose a couple additions the Zen document: Reality beats fantasy. Open discussion is better that propaganda. You might want to consider the difference between complaining and constructive criticism and suggestions, and which are likely to get better responses. I agree within limits, but sometimes constructive criticism means play by our rules which for me is outside the limits. Also non-constructive criticism while not as valuable, is not worthless either. Documentation is certainly one of them. FWIW, I have found Python's documentation to generally be excellent. FWIW I find Python's docs to be OK at best, with some horrible parts, and a lot of mediochre to poor parts. 1. I have seen recommendations here to use new-style classes. I believe classes are at the core of Python, the entire language is built around and rests on them. Yet, unless I missed it, new style classes are almost completely undocumented in the Language Reference Manual. This alone is sufficient to condemn the documentation. 2.Section 2 of the Library Reference should clearly be in the Language Reference manual. 3.There are way to few examples in the docs. 4.There are way to few cross references in the docs (for example the datetime module doesn't even mention the existence of the time module.) [I double checked before posting and see this is no longer true, but I think it is still true in many other cases. ] 5.Forward refernces (mention of things explained or defined later in the manual) are seldom identified as such. They should be a link to the appropriate part of the manual. 6.There is often no notational distinction for terms used in a general sense and a python specific technical sense leading to confusion. 7.The writing is often too terse. (To parapharse, it should be as terse as possible but no terser. I think it often violates the that last clause.) 8.There is critical missing info. (I lost many hours once because the process module (or popen? I forgot) failed to document it didn't do unicode.) 9.Many other small details, e.g is it neccesary for the one of the most frequently used datatypes (string) to not appear in the table of contents? (That's not retorical, I really don't know. Maybe it is, but if things could be arranged to that it did, it would be better.) And I was correcting a posting that explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that Howto. That was just plain wrong. It is exceptionally good information. The version that was at that link is somewhat dated (but still excellent for anyone using older versions of Python, or for those that need to remain compatible with older versions, and there are a lot of those people around), but the updated version is also excellent. I'm sure amk will either update his page to point to the new one or update the content at some point. No, it is not exceptionally good information. It is outdated information, it does not say it is outdated, and it will lead to poor practice when used in the version of Python that it documents. That clearly makes it not good. The point is that you're much more likely to improve things if you politely point out a problem and suggest a solution than simply make a complaint. I did. As for my original responce I think the suggestion was clear if implicit: stop referring to outdated documentation as a treasure. The suggestion in my update the damn docs comment was quite explicit I think. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote in message news:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --snip-- rurpy Well, I'm not totally sure but I think I would be willing to a rurpy least try contributing something. A large amount of the time I rurpy waste when writing Python programs is directly attributable to rurpy poor documentation. (To be fair Python is not the only software rurpy with this problem.) rurpy But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself rurpy is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to rurpy sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people rurpy willing to openly point out python's flaws. Documentation is rurpy certainly one of them. And I was correcting a posting that rurpy explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that rurpy Howto. That was just plain wrong. Sure, feel free to point of flaws. Just don't let that be the only way you contribute. Over time the value of your criticism (valid or not) will be discounted. The preferred way to correct problems with the documentation is to submit a bug report to SourceForge. Many of the active developers (including those who do write most of documentation) don't necessarily track c.l.py closely, so postings here often will get lost because people can't attend to them immediately. The problem with marching in here and saying fix the docs is that you are an unknown quantity (I certainly don't recognize your email address and as far as I've seen you never sign your posts. I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on the contents of my postings. I don't believe I've ever seen contributions from you either. (Can't double-check right now because SourceForget is basically unresponsive.) I try to contribute on c.l.p when I can but those times are rare. I freely admit I am a python newbie so in most cases it is more appropriate for me to read answers than to supply them. And traffic is so high it is rare when I see a question I can answer, that someone hasn't already answered better. The combination makes you look suspiciously like a troll. I doubt that's the case. Troll detectors are notorious for generating false positives. Still, my threat assessment level got raised. I would say I am more than 90% serious and less than 10% troll. :-) Perhaps the reason your detector went off is because I have posted some Politically Incorrect opinions in the same absolutist, dogmatic, style used by many PC posters? Sorry, life is short and I am not interested in sugar coating anything. Operating under the rurpy's-not-a-troll assumption, your posts suggest to me that you don't understand how Python is developed. Behind the scenes lots of documentation *does* get written. In my experience it hass generally not been written by people who whine, fix the docs. In short, there seems to be no shortage of people willing to castigate the Python developers for poor documentation. There does appear to be a shortage of people willing to actually roll up their sleeves and help. Well, I guess I would be willing to consider trying to help. (I say try because I am lousy at technical writing so my help may not be very helpful.) One thing that's not clear to me is exactly what audience are the docs aimed at? If the powers-that-be have declared that the Lang Ref. Manual is going to be a minimalist reference with an audience that already has a high level knowledge of Python, there is no point in my contributing because: 1. I can't write at that level. 2. I have no interest in a manual positioned at that level. If the audience is some lower level (e.g. programmers with some familiarity with OO but no Python knowledge) then I would be much more motivated to help. (Note that I am NOT talking about turning the Lang.Ref.Man into a tutorial!!!) The other thing to remember is that most of the people who wind up writing the documentation don't personally need most of the documentation they write. After all, they are generally the authors of code itself and are thus the experts in its use. It's tough to put yourself in the shoes of a novice, so it's tough to write documentation that would be helpful for new users. It's extremely helpful if new users submit documentation patches as they figure things out. It's generally unnecessary to write large tomes. Often all that's needed is a few sentences or an example or two. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The problem with marching in here and saying fix the docs is that you are an unknown quantity (I certainly don't recognize your email address and as far as I've seen you never sign your posts. I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on the contents of my postings. perhaps not, but it's not what you think that's important here. and I sure cannot find anything in your posts that I haven't seen before. this is use- net, after all; there's no shortage of anonymous posters hiding behind silly nicknames who think they're somehow smarter than everyone else... (and frankly, nobody takes people with hotmail.com or yahoo.com addresses seriously ;-) /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Fredrik Lundh wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on the contents of my postings. perhaps not, but it's not what you think that's important here. and I sure cannot find anything in your posts that I haven't seen before. this is use- net, after all; there's no shortage of anonymous posters hiding behind silly nicknames who think they're somehow smarter than everyone else... I don't know what I posted that gave you that false idea about me. (and frankly, nobody takes people with hotmail.com or yahoo.com addresses seriously ;-) You can judge people using whatever criteria you want, of course ;-) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
bs == BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: bs I'm a professional writer and author with a keen interest in open bs source, but the moment you look to contribute or try to help with bs the documentation you are asked to learn LaTex or DocBook, which, bs I'm sorry, I am not going to do. Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to contribute to docs. Submit plain text. One of us with some LaTeX knowledge will do the markup. Content is the hard part. Markup is nothing, so don't let it be a barrier for you. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to contribute to docs. Noted. And thanks again to all who responded. The tone of this whole thing is really antagonistic in parts, which is unfortunate. I'll offer my services through the proper channels, because I appreciate the generosity of those who share their programming knowledge. In the meantime, I think perhaps Bengt Richter's post is probably the most constructive. Meanwhile, if you have to keep repeating things for the umpteenth time then it MIGHT be because the way it is laid out or organized is making it difficult for the person seeking to VOLUNTEER to help. And we come full circle to documentation. Why do people continue getting the impression that they need to learn LaTex to submit documentation? A writer would look to his text. A programmer would probably just accuse his audience of being obtuse. rpd www.dooling.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
On 2005-12-05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't believe my name, etnic heritage, gender, age, employer or school, or part of the world I live in, have any bearing on the contents of my postings. perhaps not, but it's not what you think that's important here. and I sure cannot find anything in your posts that I haven't seen before. this is usenet, after all; there's no shortage of anonymous posters hiding behind silly nicknames who think they're somehow smarter than everyone else... I don't know what I posted that gave you that false idea about me. Hmm, I though he explained it: 1) Not using your real name. 2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address. In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors of crankness. The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot). (and frankly, nobody takes people with hotmail.com or yahoo.com addresses seriously ;-) You can judge people using whatever criteria you want, of course ;-) He's just trying to warn you that, on Usenet, by not using your real name you start out with negative credibility points in the minds of most of the old-school Usenet denizens -- and having a yahoo address subtracts a few more points. That just means you're going to have to work a bit to get back up to the same point that somebody with a real name and a real ISP would start at. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Yow! Am I JOGGING at yet?? visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Grant Edwards wrote: The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot). on the other hand, hanging out on web forums and boards is in it- self a good predictor. (if you read enough blogs, you'll notice that you can use the same filters for blog commenters as well; people behave in pretty much the same way, no matter what net protocol they're using...) old-school Usenet denizens if you've been on the Usenet long enough, you've seen it all. /F -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might turn up something useful? Well, what do you know? 2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds) 1. HowTo/Sorting 2. SortingListsOfDictionaries Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort and got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings. Is it as good as Google (site:wiki.python.org sort)? Unlikely, but it works fairly well. Granted, wikis are a different way of organizing content than static documentation with their nicely organized chapters, sections and indexes, but most of us around here are software engineer types, not tech writers, and since we're not paid to do any of this, we get to do anything we want. Most of us choose not to write documentation in our spare time. Go figure. If documentation's your thing, be my guest. Write new documentation, submit patches for existing documentation, rewrite it in Word. I don't care. Do whatever floats your boat. Just don't show up and bitch about the documentation if you're not willing to help. Well, I'm not totally sure but I think I would be willing to a least try contributing something. A large amount of the time I waste when writing Python programs is directly attributable to poor documentation. (To be fair Python is not the only software with this problem.) But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly point out python's flaws. Documentation is certainly one of them. And I was correcting a posting that explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that Howto. That was just plain wrong. Oh, did I mention that there's an Edit link at the top of almost every page on the wiki and that creating new pages is pretty simple? (Try searching the wiki for WikiCourse.) Contributing new content to the existing more static documentation isn't all that hard either. As I said, I think wiki's suck. On almost every one I find the information disorganised, very spotty in coverage, extremely variable is qualilty of writing, and often seeming like a conversation walked into in the middle of. I still haven't figured out how to get to the Python wiki's howto's by navigating from the front page. IMO wikis are best used to collect information for later editing and inclusion into more formal documentation. (That's a little stronger than my actual opinion but it's too late right now more me to express it any better.) If you prefer the latest documentation, bookmark this page: http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/index.html Thanks I will keep that in mind. But the obvious risk is that it will refer to language features and changes not in the current version. That's updated every few months, more frequently as new releases approach. Well, the docs are what they are, I can find what I need. Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl, whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're asking here. So either spend a little money, buy the Nutshell and Cookbook, (or, look at dozens of books, and many excellent ones: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/285856/ref=dp_brlad_entry/103-3311503-6360648 or spend some time, look at the 2 complete intro books published on the web, there's also: http://awaretek.com/tutorials.html http://www.vex.net/parnassus/ http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Python/Modules/ http://cheeseshop.python.org/ http://the.taoofmac.com/space/Python/Grimoire http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Python/Modules/ http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python http://python.codezoo.com/ http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=178xdiscrim=178 Here's some FAQ/gotchas: http://www.ferg.org/projects/python_gotchas.html http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/python_pitfalls.html http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/beginners_mistakes.html http://www.python.org/doc/faq/ http://diveintopython.org/appendix/abstracts.html http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2004/02/05/learn_python.html http://www.norvig.com/python-iaq.html http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/index.phtml/fid/245 http://amk.ca/python/writing/warts So i don't think you ca really say the lang spec, the VM and the dev environment in general are poorly documented. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
BartlebyScrivener wrote: Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to contribute to docs. Noted. And thanks again to all who responded. The tone of this whole thing is really antagonistic in parts, which is unfortunate. I'll offer my services through the proper channels, because I appreciate the generosity of those who share their programming knowledge. In the meantime, I think perhaps Bengt Richter's post is probably the most constructive. Meanwhile, if you have to keep repeating things for the umpteenth time then it MIGHT be because the way it is laid out or organized is making it difficult for the person seeking to VOLUNTEER to help. And we come full circle to documentation. Why do people continue getting the impression that they need to learn LaTex to submit documentation? A writer would look to his text. A programmer would probably just accuse his audience of being obtuse. rpd www.dooling.com I'd like to suggest that since you aren't by any means the first person to form the impression that Latex knowledge is required, we probably *should* be making more effort to publicise the acceptability of plain text patches to the documentation. Thanks for persisting long enough to get to this point: it would be unfortunate to lose potential contributions simply because of an inadequacy in the documentation. We definitely need to lose the antagonistic tone, but I do know from experience that there are whiners who, unlike you, aren't really prepared to do much to help. As a small start I've edited http://www.python.org/dev/doc/ and if you can think of other changes that will get Fred and Skip more help on the documentation I'll try to make those too. regards Steve -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to contribute to docs. Submit plain text. One of us with some LaTeX knowledge will do the markup. Content is the hard part. Markup is nothing, so don't let it be a barrier for you. More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge tell you to use bug trackers to speak to them. This is like standing up with someone, having a conversation, and your partner suddenly tells you: If you want to speak to me, please study this form, carefully read the small print, fill it properly and send the yellow copy at this address. Surprised, you ask: Why should I do that?, and he replies: I might forget our conversation if you don't fill a form for me. Even more suprіsed, you say: Gosh, can't you manage your own notes yourself, as you see them fit? Most grown up people are able to take care of themselves, you know. I just do not like filling these forms! Besides, _my_ time is quite precious. Astonished, you just cannot believe what you hear. Life is so short, you think, why one would ought to stand with such guys? As the room is full of other interesting people, you happily move on towards them. -- François Pinard http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Let me repeat this for the umpteenth time: You do not have to learn LaTeX to contribute to docs. Submit plain text. One of us with some LaTeX knowledge will do the markup. Content is the hard part. Markup is nothing, so don't let it be a barrier for you. More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge tell you to use bug trackers to speak to them. More than latex and bug trackers, the main obstacle is that people wanting better docs want them for the precise reason that the existing docs don't make it clear what the code does. Writing a good doc patch (and the patches needed are often sweeping rewrites) requires studying and understanding the code being documented, and the application area that the code tries to implement. Maybe it also requires studying relevant standards that the code implements (to note gaps in the implementation), comparing the implementation to other implementations in other languages, etc. For example, writing a good doc patch for urllib2 would mean checking RFC 2616(?) against the urllib2 code to see what parts of the RFC got implemented and what parts didn't. It might also mean comparing urllib2 with other libraries like LWP (Perl) or whatever the equivalent is in Java. By the time the requester/patch writer gets through studying the code to figure out what it does, maybe s/he has answered his/her own questions and doesn't need docs any more. The person best qualified to know what the code does is the code author, who could answer all the questions immediately. The solution is clear: the distro maintainers should require that all code contributions must come with good docs. When a code submission comes in, the distro maintainers should critically review the accompanying docs, note any shortcomings and constructively ask for improvements from the contributor until the docs are good. The distro committers are all very skilled and experienced people. So there's a certain amount of mentoring going on whenever a committer works with a contributor to accept a code patch. By communicating what it takes to bring documentation up to snuff, the committers can share their wisdom with contributors and thereby raise the quality standard of not just the distro, but also of the whole contributor community. Passing skills on to others is after all what being a community is about. Many of us who have acquired any skill at putting docs together, acquired them in precisely this fashion, and should try to pass them on. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge François tell you to use bug trackers to speak to them. Understood. I wish either a) SourceForge supported email interaction with their trackers or b) someone would finish off the Roundup issue tracker http://roundup.sourceforge.net/ for python.org. I doubt if anyone here can do anything about the first barrier, but if you know something about Roundup (or would like to learn about it) and would like to contribute something non-documentational that would really have a direct, positive impact on the Python community, send a note to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Paul For example, writing a good doc patch for urllib2 would mean Paul checking RFC 2616(?) against the urllib2 code to see what parts of Paul the RFC got implemented and what parts didn't. It might also mean Paul comparing urllib2 with other libraries like LWP (Perl) or whatever Paul the equivalent is in Java. Sounds like a subject matter expert is needed here, not a garden variety tech writer or Python programmer. Documentation of esoteric stuff requires, well, esoteric knowledge. Skip -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
François Pinard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More than LaTeX, the main frozener is when people in charge tell you to use bug trackers to speak to them. This is like standing up with someone, having a conversation, ... in which you informally ask them to do something... and your partner suddenly tells you: If you want to speak to me, ... to give specific suggestions for improvement... please study this form, carefully read the small print, fill it properly and send the yellow copy at this address. ... so that it can go with all the other requests I get at various times from various people. Surprised, you ask: Why should I do that?, and he replies: I might forget our conversation if you don't fill a form for me. Even more suprіsed, you say: Gosh, can't you manage your own notes yourself, as you see them fit? Most grown up people are able to take care of themselves, you know. I just do not like filling these forms! Besides, _my_ time is quite precious. Astonished, you just cannot believe what you hear. Life is so short, you think, why one would ought to stand with such guys? Perhaps because you have asked them to do something that benefits you, and they receive multiple requests of that type from many different people? As the room is full of other interesting people, you happily move on towards them. If you just want to have conversations, talk to whomever you like. If you want someone specific to voluntarily do something, yes, you'll have to meet them halfway by helping them help you. -- \ I put instant coffee in a microwave oven and almost went back | `\ in time. -- Steven Wright | _o__) | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
The solution is clear: the distro maintainers should require that all code contributions must come with good docs. When a code submission comes in, the distro maintainers should critically review the accompanying docs, note any shortcomings and constructively ask for improvements from the contributor until the docs are good. Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. All I was saying is you should court writers and mid-level programmers with writing skills (not saying I'M mid-level, I'm still learning) to HELP with creating good documentation. When a writer thinks about helping they go to a page where they are greeted by a bug report menu or CSV notices or some such. That's why most of your really good stuff for beginners is on separately created web pages, where writers simply take matters into their own hands. Also fine, not saying it should be different. Again, taking something like Bengt Richter's suggestion as just one example. To me the module docs are almost incomprehensible without good examples. Why not have a button where people could submit nice SHORT examples illustrating otherwise pure theoretical code and geek-speak. Of course, the editors would decide in a survival-of-the-fittest contest which example gets used, but the point is you'd get good free examples this way. In general, I'd be happy to help a programmer with writing if it meant I would learn programming along the way. It should be that easy. rd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sounds like a subject matter expert is needed here, not a garden variety tech writer or Python programmer. Documentation of esoteric stuff requires, well, esoteric knowledge. Yes, that's what I mean; coding a library module for an esoteric function requires that same esoteric knowledge, and those are the modules for which the docs need the most help. So the person coding the library module is the logical person to write the doc. The doc writing task can't in general be handed off to some random programmer or writer. It should be written by the same person who wrote the code. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Paul Rubin wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Sounds like a subject matter expert is needed here, not a garden variety tech writer or Python programmer. Documentation of esoteric stuff requires, well, esoteric knowledge. Yes, that's what I mean; coding a library module for an esoteric function requires that same esoteric knowledge, and those are the modules for which the docs need the most help. So the person coding the library module is the logical person to write the doc. The doc writing task can't in general be handed off to some random programmer or writer. It should be written by the same person who wrote the code. Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by answering questions, and this did make the docs better than they'd otherwise have been. -- Steve Holden +44 150 684 7255 +1 800 494 3119 Holden Web LLC www.holdenweb.com PyCon TX 2006 www.python.org/pycon/ -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by answering questions, and this did make the docs better than they'd otherwise have been. Now you're talking. The writer forces the programmer to explain how the code works, in plain English, until the writer understands it. Then the writer creates simple sentences written in the active voice with vivid particular examples to illustrate. Voila. rd -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by answering questions, and this did make the docs better than they'd otherwise have been. Yes, this can work pretty well for some modules, especially when there's in-person contact rather than just email. The total amount of work done between the two people may be more than would be needed if the coder just wrote the docs and got it over with. But any way that gets it done is fine. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, I though he explained it: 1) Not using your real name. 2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address. In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors of crankness. The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot). To use a Panix in-joke, how old are you, anyway? I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this canard about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's quite clear that many many people have been active on the Net *and* taken seriously using names that aren't what you'd call a real name. (People named piglet, tigger, and pooh, just for example, who were active long before I showed up. Not to mention piranha.) ObSheesh: Sheesh -- Aahz ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) * http://www.pythoncraft.com/ Don't listen to schmucks on USENET when making legal decisions. Hire yourself a competent schmuck. --USENET schmuck (aka Robert Kern) -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Paul Rubin http://[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Steve Holden [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Or, better still, by an accomplished writer who has access to the code's author. This was indeed my experience in writing the docs for previously undocumented modules. The author was happy to help me by answering questions, and this did make the docs better than they'd otherwise have been. Yes, this can work pretty well for some modules, especially when there's in-person contact rather than just email. The total amount of work done between the two people may be more than would be needed if the coder just wrote the docs and got it over with. But any way that gets it done is fine. Redhat's Fedora project seems to have a fairly well developed program for recruiting and encouraging writers. I thought when I looked at their material 6-12 months ago, I read that they formally facilitated contact between a project's developers and writer(s) doing the documentation. But I couldn't find anything specific on that when I looked just now. They might be a source of some useful ideas though (assuming you don't already know all this.) http://www.fedora.redhat.com/projects/docs/ http://fedoraproject.org/wiki/DocsProject/NewWriters -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[Ben Finney] please study this form, carefully read the small print, fill it properly and send the yellow copy at this address. ... so that it can go with all the other requests I get at various times from various people. If he wants pink forms with blue borders, let him grant himself with pink forms with blue borders. His way of managing has not to be mine. If he declares being unable to read information unless it is written on a pink form with blue borders, he has a serious communication problem, that should not receive encouragement from me. Astonished, you just cannot believe what you hear. Life is so short, you think, why one would ought to stand with such guys? Perhaps because you have asked them to do something that benefits you, Or perhaps not so specifically. When I (attempt to) submit a Python problem (documentation or otherwise), I'm hoping some benefit to the Python community in the long run. One of those humble drops which, accumulated, make oceans. Most of times, in practice, I already solved my actual problem. I'm merely trying to be a good citizen. However, when people tell me I'm not a good citizen unless _I_ fill pink forms with blue borders, I think they lost part of their good judgement. If they really want pink forms, they should serve themselves by filling pink forms, and leave me and the world alone with these forms. As the room is full of other interesting people, you happily move on towards them. If you just want to have conversations, talk to whomever you like. If you want someone specific to voluntarily do something, yes, you'll have to meet them halfway by helping them help you. I do not want to force anyone to anything. This is mostly volunteer work. You know that. The problem I'm reporting here is this pink form mania. _I_ would volunteer something, that they'd ask for pink forms. I've been in the area of free software maintainance for a very long while, collobarated with maybe a hundred of maintainers, and corresponded with surely many thousands of users. No doubt it was a lot of work overall, but at least, communication was easy going (usually). It's a relatively recent phenomenon that maintainers go berzerk, foaming at the mouth over forms, borders, colors, and various other mania! :-) -- François Pinard http://pinard.progiciels-bpi.ca -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Redhat's Fedora project seems to have a fairly well developed program for recruiting and encouraging writers. Frankly I haven't been that impressed with the Fedora docs I've seen. The LDP docs have generally been better. Maybe I'm looking at the wrong Fedora docs. Fedora Core 4 also broke or changed a bunch of code that worked perfectly well in FC3, as a side issue. For a language environment like Python, the example I'd look to for quality docs is probably CLtL2: http://www.cliki.net/CLtL2 The CMU link seems to be down right now. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --snip-- If you prefer the latest documentation, bookmark this page: http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/index.html Thanks I will keep that in mind. But the obvious risk is that it will refer to language features and changes not in the current version. That's updated every few months, more frequently as new releases approach. Well, the docs are what they are, I can find what I need. And so it is with me too. But it often takes me much longer than it should to find what I need. And everytime I (or you) don't find it in Python's docs, that is evidence of the lack of quality of Python's docs. Are you telling us you learned C#, smalltalk, lisp, C, perl, whatever, from 1 website only, without looking at any books, without spending any money on IDEs or any software? Cause that's what you're asking here. For perl and C, yes, that's (close to) what I'm telling you. Perl I learned exclusively from the man pages, before WWW. I used it for 10 years before I ever bought a printed book. C I learned exclusively from the KR book. I tried to learn Python from the official docs but found it impossible. I bought Beasley's book (I think this may have predated Martelli's book but I don't remember) which I thought quite good and which I still turn to before the Python docs in most cases. So either spend a little money, buy the Nutshell and Cookbook, (or, If one is required to buy a book to use free software, it is not really free, is it? look at dozens of books, and many excellent ones: http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/browse/-/285856/ref=dp_brlad_entry/103-3311503-6360648 Books are no different than anything else. There are a few good ones, a lot of average ones, and a few bad ones. (Actually, the distribution is probably skewed to the bad side because it is easier to write a bad book than a good one). Also most of these books seem to be tutorial in nature. That's not what I want. I want a clear, lucid, *concise*, compete, accurate, description of Python (i.e. what Python's docs should be.) Given that Beazley (and I presume Martelli) did that, and the reference manuals of other languages did that, I don't see why Python can't do that (other than the fact that writing documentation is not fun for most people, and hard to do well.) or spend some time, look at the 2 complete intro books published on the I did. I thought they both were poor. web, there's also: http://awaretek.com/tutorials.html http://www.vex.net/parnassus/ http://directory.google.com/Top/Computers/Programming/Languages/Python/Modules/ http://cheeseshop.python.org/ http://the.taoofmac.com/space/Python/Grimoire http://dmoz.org/Computers/Programming/Languages/Python/Modules/ http://aspn.activestate.com/ASPN/Cookbook/Python http://python.codezoo.com/ http://sourceforge.net/softwaremap/trove_list.php?form_cat=178xdiscrim=178 Here's some FAQ/gotchas: http://www.ferg.org/projects/python_gotchas.html http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/python_pitfalls.html http://zephyrfalcon.org/labs/beginners_mistakes.html http://www.python.org/doc/faq/ http://diveintopython.org/appendix/abstracts.html http://www.onlamp.com/pub/a/python/2004/02/05/learn_python.html http://www.norvig.com/python-iaq.html http://www.faqts.com/knowledge_base/index.phtml/fid/245 http://amk.ca/python/writing/warts That's a very good list and I will save a copy, thanks. But what does it have to do with Python's documentation? So i don't think you ca really say the lang spec, the VM and the dev environment in general are poorly documented. Are you under the impression that an assortment of pages out on the internet constitutes (or substitutes for) the official documentation that comes with python? -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
BartlebyScrivener [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The solution is clear: the distro maintainers should require that all code contributions must come with good docs. Well, that might be asking a bit too much of the programmers, who perhaps don't exactly enjoy mucking about in the lowlands of English grammar and syntax. I've generally found good coders are also good writers, despite the stereotype of the uncommunicative geek. Some coders don't like documenting because it's less exciting than writing code, but that doesn't mean they're incapable of it. After a while you learn to just slog it out. Docs written by non-native English speakers generally need to be cleaned up before publication, but that's no big deal. All I was saying is you should court writers and mid-level programmers with writing skills (not saying I'M mid-level, I'm still learning) to HELP with creating good documentation. When a writer thinks about helping they go to a page where they are greeted by a bug report menu or CSV notices or some such. I just don't know to what extent a program like Python can really benefit from docs written by non-experts in the thing being documented. Of course there are other types of programs, like some desktop applications, which can be documented by non-experts. That's why most of your really good stuff for beginners is on separately created web pages, where writers simply take matters into their own hands. Also fine, not saying it should be different. I don't know about this. Again, taking something like Bengt Richter's suggestion as just one example. To me the module docs are almost incomprehensible without good examples. Why not have a button where people could submit nice SHORT examples illustrating otherwise pure theoretical code and geek-speak. Of course, the editors would decide in a survival-of-the-fittest contest which example gets used, but the point is you'd get good free examples this way. PHP has a system sort of like that, where each library function has its own doc page and anyone can submit comments and examples, sort of like a blog. E.g.: http://us2.php.net/manual/en/function.metaphone.php There's been some discussion of doing the same thing for Python, but it hasn't been happening. Generally, it seems to me, the parts of the docs that can be improved much by easy additions like an example here and there, are already usable with a little extra effort. The docs that need improvement the most (because they're almost unusable as-is) need extensive additions and rewrites that really have to to be done by experts. In general, I'd be happy to help a programmer with writing if it meant I would learn programming along the way. It should be that easy. Maybe you'd enjoy going to a user group meeting and trying to find people to collaborate with. Doing that kind of thing in person is much more fun than doing it over the net. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If one is required to buy a book to use free software, it is not really free, is it? If one is required to buy a computer to use free software, is it free? You should well know that cost and freedom are orthogonal. -- \I got fired from my job the other day. They said my | `\personality was weird. ... That's okay, I have four more. -- | _o__)Bug-Eyed Earl, _Red Meat_ | Ben Finney -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
Aahz wrote: To use a Panix in-joke, how old are you, anyway? I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this canard about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's quite clear that many many people have been active on the Net *and* taken seriously using names that aren't what you'd call a real name. The fact that it obviously isn't always true without exception doesn't mean it's never true. Or did that not occur to you? -- Erik Max Francis [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.alcyone.com/max/ San Jose, CA, USA 37 20 N 121 53 W AIM erikmaxfrancis Always forgive your enemies -- nothing annoys them so much. -- Oscar Wilde -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Usenet falsehoods (was Re: Bitching about the documentation...)
On 2005-12-06, Aahz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In article [EMAIL PROTECTED], Grant Edwards [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hmm, I though he explained it: 1) Not using your real name. 2) A yahoo, aol, or hotmail address. In the ancient and hallowed (by net standards) history of Usenet, both of these (particularly the first one) have been pretty good predictors of crankness. The correlation isn't as high as it used to be, now that hiding behind silly nicknames has apparently become socially acceptable in other venues (web forums and boards and whatnot). To use a Panix in-joke, how old are you, anyway? Hmm, let's see Wasting Time on Usenet Since 1989 I've been on the Net for more than fifteen years, and while this canard about real names gets trotted out from time to time, it's quite clear that many many people have been active on the Net *and* taken seriously using names that aren't what you'd call a real name. (People named piglet, tigger, and pooh, just for example, who were active long before I showed up. Not to mention piranha.) I didn't said it was 100% reliable, but in most of the technical groups there sure seemed to be a good correlation beetween screen names and kooks/trolls. -- Grant Edwards grante Yow! Uh-oh!! I'm having at TOO MUCH FUN!! visi.com -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might turn up something useful? Well, what do you know? 2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds) 1. HowTo/Sorting 2. SortingListsOfDictionaries Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort and got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings. Is it as good as Google (site:wiki.python.org sort)? Unlikely, but it works fairly well. Granted, wikis are a different way of organizing content than static documentation with their nicely organized chapters, sections and indexes, but most of us around here are software engineer types, not tech writers, and since we're not paid to do any of this, we get to do anything we want. Most of us choose not to write documentation in our spare time. Go figure. If documentation's your thing, be my guest. Write new documentation, submit patches for existing documentation, rewrite it in Word. I don't care. Do whatever floats your boat. Just don't show up and bitch about the documentation if you're not willing to help. Well, I'm not totally sure but I think I would be willing to a least try contributing something. A large amount of the time I waste when writing Python programs is directly attributable to poor documentation. (To be fair Python is not the only software with this problem.) But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly point out python's flaws. Documentation is certainly one of them. And I was correcting a posting that explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that Howto. That was just plain wrong. Oh, did I mention that there's an Edit link at the top of almost every page on the wiki and that creating new pages is pretty simple? (Try searching the wiki for WikiCourse.) Contributing new content to the existing more static documentation isn't all that hard either. As I said, I think wiki's suck. On almost every one I find the information disorganised, very spotty in coverage, extremely variable is qualilty of writing, and often seeming like a conversation walked into in the middle of. I still haven't figured out how to get to the Python wiki's howto's by navigating from the front page. IMO wikis are best used to collect information for later editing and inclusion into more formal documentation. (That's a little stronger than my actual opinion but it's too late right now more me to express it any better.) If you prefer the latest documentation, bookmark this page: http://www.python.org/dev/doc/devel/index.html Thanks I will keep that in mind. But the obvious risk is that it will refer to language features and changes not in the current version. That's updated every few months, more frequently as new releases approach. -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Gee, I wonder if I typed sort into the search box on the wiki it might turn up something useful? Well, what do you know? 2 results of about 4571 pages. (0.19 seconds) 1. HowTo/Sorting 2. SortingListsOfDictionaries Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort and got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings. No, he's talking about the *wiki* search box, not the one in the extreme upper right which is for the whole site. Scan down just a tad... it's got a yellow background here (in Firefox). Admittedly not at all obvious, especially sitting next to the Login link and looking like maybe a text field for a user name or something, though it does clearly have the word Search in it until you click there... -Peter -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
Peter Hansen wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Are we talking about the same Search box (at the top right of the wiki page, and labeled search? Well, yes I did enter sort and got (as I said) a long list of archived maillist postings. No, he's talking about the *wiki* search box, not the one in the extreme upper right which is for the whole site. Scan down just a tad... it's got a yellow background here (in Firefox). Admittedly not at all obvious, especially sitting next to the Login link and looking like maybe a text field for a user name or something, though it does clearly have the word Search in it until you click there... It certainly did fool me. :-( -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Bitching about the documentation...
But, the standard responce of don't complain, fix it yourself is bogus too. There are plenty of people on this list willing to sing python's praises, for balance, there should be people willing to openly point out python's flaws. This makes no sense. If you want to complain about Python, try a Perl list. Why would a list dedicated to discussion about/help with a language need complaints about the language? You might want to consider the difference between complaining and constructive criticism and suggestions, and which are likely to get better responses. Documentation is certainly one of them. FWIW, I have found Python's documentation to generally be excellent. And I was correcting a posting that explicitly said there was exceptionaly good information in that Howto. That was just plain wrong. It is exceptionally good information. The version that was at that link is somewhat dated (but still excellent for anyone using older versions of Python, or for those that need to remain compatible with older versions, and there are a lot of those people around), but the updated version is also excellent. I'm sure amk will either update his page to point to the new one or update the content at some point. The point is that you're much more likely to improve things if you politely point out a problem and suggest a solution than simply make a complaint. =Tony.Meyer -- http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list