Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:13:33 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote: Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, [...] Well, this has been a big disappointment. The author of this post, Owen Jacobson, appears to have made a fly-by post. Despite asking three questions, there's no sign that Owen stuck around to hear the answers. Pity, I would have been interested to hear what he had to say. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 18/10/2013 02:49, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Because it was tedious, repetitive work, and because most of the men were over in Europe getting shot at, nearly all of the computers at Bletchly Park were women. The actual mechanical computing devices were called bombes, I kid you not. What complete and utter tosh, everybody with any brains knows that you can't possibly compute anything with a mechanical device. But seriously, just seconds ago I was thinking of these clever little sods whilst reading another thread here, no guesses which one :) I also understand that the ladies involved used to surprise the big wig visitors by working in their underwear as the rooms could get so hot, quite something for the 1940s, but Don't you know there's a war on. -- Roses are red, Violets are blue, Most poems rhyme, But this one doesn't. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 18/10/2013 04:14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.) Thank you Steven for making me chuckle as the most famous episode of Dad's Army has just leapt into my mind :) -- Roses are red, Violets are blue, Most poems rhyme, But this one doesn't. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python... ...Python FAQ 1.16. Do I have to like Monty Python's Flying Circus? No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29), and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition... Sas -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and let the FCC decide what's acceptable. On second thought, that won't work - they would let therapist through, and as we all know, that has a double meaning. On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish ish...@domhain.de wrote: Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python... ...Python FAQ 1.16. Do I have to like Monty Python's Flying Circus? No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM ( https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29), and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition... Sas -- https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-listhttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than how think algorithm in python -_-' Regards Bob Hartwig bobje...@gmail.com writes: I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and let the FCC decide what's acceptable. On second thought, that won't work - they would let therapist through, and as we all know, that has a double meaning. On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish ish...@domhain.de wrote: Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python... ...Python FAQ 1.16. Do I have to like Monty Python's Flying Circus? No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM ( https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29), and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition... Sas -- https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-listhttps://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Aurélien DESBRIÈRES Run Free - Run GNU.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 2013-10-18 04:14, Steven D'Aprano wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.) Common parent more like. pike or pick or any number of similar variants was a more general term applied to things with a pointed tip. The fish name is a shortening of pike-fish, so it's obviously not the source of the word. The weapon only really comes into fashion a couple of centuries after the fish's name is first recorded, so it's not the source either. P.S. It's nice to have access to an electronic copy of the OED. -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 2013-10-18 05:03, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish. Our logo is a snake, so that's obviously not a good guide. :-) -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
(I forgot to reply to all, so I'm adding python-list in cc back). Strangely I have never seen sexism on python nor on ruby and the stangest thing is that this subject seems to make more speach than how think algorithm in python -_-' If you have any doubt sexisms exists in the ruby community, have a look at the following link: http://geekfeminism.wikia.com/wiki/CouchDB_talk This ended with Mike Gunderloy's resignation ( http://afreshcup.com/home/2009/4/28/a-painful-decision.html) from the Ruby's activists and the beginning of RailsBridge, a project aimed at making the Ruby community more friendly. Similar examples exists in the python community, thought I don't think it ever reached the level of Aimonetti's talk. Cheers, N That is not the mailing list of ruby but a feminist place which talk about the the picture that he have used for his speach. I should have used another reference than this wiki to illustrate my point (though, even if it is a feminist wiki, it describes the facts and only the facts and has extensive references, which is not the case of the others references that I have, which express their authors point of view). Anyhow, the problem with this talk doesn't come from the picture and the title of the talk, but with all the sexist jokes from it. There are many other examples of sexisms in the Ruby community: this is just the most striking and famous one. AFAIK that woman picture have been also use many years ago in most of bus stop in france and no one says anything against that and some more hot picture. Indeed, this is an advertisment for underwears, and I see no problem in having such advertisment in bus stops. (But I do see problem with french people complaining about a painting of two men kissing...) Whether this should be use at a technical conference, this is open to debate (I sure don't think this is very professional). Feminist are feminist and most of time are right, but most of time forget to react on somethings, like for exemple when Nicolas Sarkozy whistle his wife like a dog at the end of his first national scroll the 14 July. Since Python never act in any ways against women, it should be fine to stop to spam the mailing list. Whilst I do not have strong feelings whether this specific debate should go on, I do think that questions that affect our community should be discussed on this mailing list. I don't think of the Python community as globally sexist, but I am very glad that the PSF and Pycon's staff take this problem at heart. Regards Regards Bob Hartwig bobje...@gmail.com writes: I think we should follow the lead of the radio and TV industry, and let the FCC decide what's acceptable. On second thought, that won't work - they would let therapist through, and as we all know, that has a double meaning. On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:57 AM, ishish ish...@domhain.de wrote: Am 17.10.2013 18:16, schrieb Roy Smith: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) As Tim already explained, it's named after Monty Python... ...Python FAQ 1.16. Do I have to like Monty Python's Flying Circus? No, but it helps. Pythonistas like the occasional reference to SPAM ( https://en.wikipedia.org/**wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spam_%28Monty_Python%29), and of course, nobody expects the Spanish Inquisition... Sas -- https://mail.python.org/**mailman/listinfo/python-list https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Aurélien DESBRIÈRES Run Free - Run GNU.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- Aurélien DESBRIÈRES Run Free - Run GNU.org -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Am 18.10.2013 15:09, schrieb Robert Kern: On 2013-10-18 05:03, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish. Our logo is a snake, so that's obviously not a good guide. :-) -- Robert Kern I have come to believe that the whole world is an enigma, a harmless enigma that is made terrible by our own mad attempt to interpret it as though it had an underlying truth. -- Umberto Eco I quote Guido: Apart from being a computer scientist, I'm also a fan of Monty Python's Flying Circus (a BBC comedy series from the seventies, in the -- unlikely -- case you didn't know). It occurred to me one day that I needed a name that was short, unique, and slightly mysterious. And I happened to be reading some scripts from the series at the time... So then I decided to call my language Python. But Python is not a joke. And don't you associate it with dangerous reptiles either! (If you need an icon, use an image of the 16-ton weight from the TV series or of a can of SPAM :-) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17 Oct 2013 05:48:10 GMT, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote: While this flippant usage of Nazi (based on, as I understand it, Seinfeld's soup nazi) may be offensive, it has nothing to do with sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that. Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as soup nazi or grammar nazi, and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me. I thought left-wing types were particularly prone to using such terms, and tend to freely call anyone even slightly to the right of them fascist. But since both Nazis and fqascists were authoritarian types, perhaps we can create a portmanteau word to cover it -- how about grammatarian for authoritarian grammarian. No, don't tell me. The libertarians will object. -- Steve Hayes from Tshwane, South Africa Web: http://www.khanya.org.za/stevesig.htm Blog: http://khanya.wordpress.com E-mail - see web page, or parse: shayes at dunelm full stop org full stop uk -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, 16 Oct 2013 23:13:33 -0400, Owen Jacobson wrote: Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit: What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails community: I'm not part of the Rails community, but I wonder, really, is this treating the cause of the problem or just a symptom? How many Ruby developers find themselves in the situation of actually needing to use a package called bitch or retarded? If you didn't go out looking for them, would you even know they exist? I think that packages with this sort of name do the community a good service: they are a very strong signal as to the moral quality, emotional immaturity, and intelligence of the package author. The author is perhaps to be excused if he *actually is* an obnoxious fourteen-year old boy rather than just acting like one. Otherwise, with the very occasional exception, packages like the ones named are nearly as good a signal as a Poor Impulse Control tattoo across the forehead of the author. [...] The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable. Well done, us, in as much as there is an us to congratulate. Unobjectionable. There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, I think, worth discussing: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) I'm curious as to what you consider a bad decision -- the name itself, or the very concept of trying to guess gender from names? [...] So, two questions: 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? Chances are there is plenty we do that future generations will be horrified by, like *wearing yellow*. http://paulgraham.com/say.html Some of these things will include our most cherished beliefs. Where, if not through the conventions for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary behaviour? Oh, the assumptions there... 1) Mindlessly exclusionary? 2) Who says *we* encourage sexism and racism? 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? I really don't like the idea that some package names are thoughtcrime. I especially don't like the idea that we need to *preemptively* police the community for bad names *just in case* some high-profile dirtbag decides to call her software boobies or something. 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? Heh, I'm inclined to say better them than us and be grateful that the snotty-nosed emotionally-stunted yahoos are over there rather than over here, but that would be selfish, wouldn't it? Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger troubles than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and frankly, if I were a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be pleased to have a bunch of strangers from another community come over to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong. Speaking of which, while you're welcome here of course, I see you aren't exactly a regular poster. How well do you know this community? I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call towards Pypi to drop unacceptable library names is a good idea either. However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. So, how should we be more awesome? We should give out free cookies! Everybody loves cookies, right? What *actual* problem are we trying to solve, right here? Is
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote: [...] 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? I'm sorry, but as a member of the hygenically-challenged community I am greatly offended by the term dirtbag. -a -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:30 PM, mar...@python.net wrote: On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote: [...] 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? I'm sorry, but as a member of the hygenically-challenged community I am greatly offended by the term dirtbag. He didn't mean you, he specifically said high-profile. Apropos of this whole thing of giving and taking offense, I'm currently crewing a production [2] of Princess Ida [2], in which - in her university - a set of chessmen was enough of a crime to warrant expulsion, and a sketch of a perambulator (double perambulator, shameless girl!) was met with a three-term suspension. Yet in the rest of the world, neither is in the least offensive. Of course, this is an exaggeration for the benefit of opera, but it does highlight the fickle nature of offensiveness... ChrisA [1] http://gilbertandsullivan.org.au/ - come see us if you're in Melbourne, AU! [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princess_Ida -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Offense versus harrassment (was: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?)
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 17:44:01 +1100, Ben Finney wrote: [...] Nazis, while they were an awful oppressive influence in society in the first half of the 20th century, are not an influence now in the 3rd millennium. Tell that to Golden Dawn. And the Russian Parliament. Just because few people in polite society admit to Nazi-esque leanings doesn't mean the meme has disappeared. Alas, it appears to be well on the rise again. Making a self-reference to “nazi” does not seriously shelter anyone's bad behaviour, since so much time has passed since Nazis significantly harrassed anyone. What, a week? http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/cair-calif-muslims-condemn-neo- nazi-harassment-of-jewish-worshipers-63779577.html Upskirt photos *are* an antisocial phenomenon now in the 3rd millennium, contributing significantly to a culture that demeans and harrasses women. Well, that's an opinion, and one I'm not going to debate, since who the hell wants to defend something as squick-making as upskirt photos? But then, we really ought to be wary of making decisions based solely, or primarily, on the squick-factor. That's the primary basis for harassment and discrimination against male homosexuals. Visceral reactions are not to be trusted, *especially* when it comes to anything related to sex and sexuality. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 09:20:39AM +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger troubles than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and frankly, if I were a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be pleased to have a bunch of strangers from another community come over to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong. What could possibly go wrong? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2 -[]z. -- Zero Piraeus: in ictu oculi http://etiol.net/pubkey.asc -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
In article 201310162317485-owenjacobson@grimoireca, Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.ca wrote: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which⦠well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. Is it the name, or the functionality? As for the name, I guess different people have different reactions, but I (as a male) find this only mildly offensive. I can see why some people might have a stronger reaction to it. Perhaps not the best name one might have come up with, but certainly not anywhere near the list you cited. I would not have picked the name myself, but I also would not want to see us go so far as to forbid something with that name from being listed on pypi. As for the function, guessing gender from names is important in the advertising world. Everybody knows that some names are ambiguous. And that sometimes names that you would think of as unambiguously associated with a particular gender are used by the other. And a zillion other ways the guess can be wrong. Still, it's worth real money in on-line commerce and advertising to know (even with a certain degree of uncertainty) somebody's gender. So it's not surprising people are writing tools to guess that from names. Nor do I think it's inappropriate. Full disclosure: I work for a company which makes money selling on-line advertising. If we can provide accurate gender information to our advertisers, we can charge them more per impression. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to these things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking.. yea the names are dumb. But does it ever stop me. No. Mainly because ignore the college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like that. On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 9:52 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article 201310162317485-owenjacobson@grimoireca, Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.ca wrote: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) I'm not sure what you're objecting to here. Is it the name, or the functionality? As for the name, I guess different people have different reactions, but I (as a male) find this only mildly offensive. I can see why some people might have a stronger reaction to it. Perhaps not the best name one might have come up with, but certainly not anywhere near the list you cited. I would not have picked the name myself, but I also would not want to see us go so far as to forbid something with that name from being listed on pypi. As for the function, guessing gender from names is important in the advertising world. Everybody knows that some names are ambiguous. And that sometimes names that you would think of as unambiguously associated with a particular gender are used by the other. And a zillion other ways the guess can be wrong. Still, it's worth real money in on-line commerce and advertising to know (even with a certain degree of uncertainty) somebody's gender. So it's not surprising people are writing tools to guess that from names. Nor do I think it's inappropriate. Full disclosure: I work for a company which makes money selling on-line advertising. If we can provide accurate gender information to our advertisers, we can charge them more per impression. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17/10/2013 04:13, Owen Jacobson wrote: It is no business of the Python community how the Ruby community manages sexism or any other ism. -- Roses are red, Violets are blue, Most poems rhyme, But this one doesn't. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 1:38 AM, Danyelle Davis ladyni...@gmail.com wrote: I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to these things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking.. yea the names are dumb. But does it ever stop me. No. Mainly because ignore the college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like that. Thing is, it's all very well to avoid using one particular module because you don't like its name... but what happens when there are a goodly number of such ill-named modules? Let's suppose you don't like the name readline because it offends your religion. (I'm deliberately picking something that I can't imagine actually being offensive; my sincere and humble apologies if there is anyone who actually IS offended by that name.) You might be able to use libedit instead, but what if that name also is offensive to you? (Again, apologies if it really is.) How long are you going to poke around for alternative modules before you throw your hands up and say This language sucks, all its modules have stupid names? Or do you mean that you'd use something despite its offensive name, because the name doesn't bother you? If so, awesome for you, but unfortunately not everyone is so generous :) Personally, I would avoid using profane names, if only because I don't like trying to explain to my boss what it is I'm using. You use Python? What's that? It's a language, named after a comedy group. Great! - vs - You use Brainf--? What's that? Uhh... it's a language... that I don't like to say the name of. Uhh - awkward. Same with module names. When I watched a Ruby app installing itself, I googled a few of the gem names out of morbid curiosity, and to be quite frank, I dislike a lot of them. Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. And I really don't think they need profanity, which some people apparently disagree with. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
What we need to do is A) Prove that we are not sexist and racist by excluding and intolerating people who do not agree with. B) Head on over to the Ruby mailing list and make a thread called Hey guys we are the python people, and can you learn to behave, ok plz? wherein we detail to them what we think they are doing wrong and how we, in our superior moral judgment, think they ought to improve themselves, that'll teach them not to be sexist and racist alright. I think that is what OP is suggesting we do, if it's not then I really don't know what it is. I've sometimes been curious why programming in general, and python included is a male dominated field, well I'm glad that OP has figured out it's just because we scare all the women away with our overt sexism and racism naming conventions. Great thread, just great. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thursday, October 17, 2013 5:18:25 PM UTC+5:30, Zero Piraeus wrote: : On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 09:20:39AM +, Steven D'Aprano wrote: Oh well. There's only so much I can do at once. I've got bigger troubles than trying to solve Ruby's problems with yahoos, and frankly, if I were a Ruby community member, I wouldn't exactly be pleased to have a bunch of strangers from another community come over to tell me all the things I'm doing wrong. What could possibly go wrong? http://www.theguardian.com/world/2004/oct/18/uselections2004.usa2 Fun read that -- thanks. And it leads to the following analogizing: Python advising Ruby (forgive the anthropomorphism) is less like Brits advising the Americans than the Iraquis. Yeah there is no bloodshed (God forbid!) between python and ruby but there is a sense of competition. A more orthogonal group advising may.. well be more advisable :-) eg debian packager group or w3 consortium or X-windows consortium or some such As for the subject matter itself Ive uhh.. nothing to say: Considering that 'retarded' implies sexism my cultural antenna is currently broken... I'll squeak a word or two when its repaired... -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17/10/2013 17:43, Paul Pittlerson wrote: What we need to do is A) Prove that we are not sexist and racist by excluding and intolerating people who do not agree with. B) Head on over to the Ruby mailing list and make a thread called Hey guys we are the python people, and can you learn to behave, ok plz? wherein we detail to them what we think they are doing wrong and how we, in our superior moral judgment, think they ought to improve themselves, that'll teach them not to be sexist and racist alright. I think that is what OP is suggesting we do, if it's not then I really don't know what it is. I've sometimes been curious why programming in general, and python included is a male dominated field, well I'm glad that OP has figured out it's just because we scare all the women away with our overt sexism and racism naming conventions. It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity! Great thread, just great. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
17.10.13 20:37, MRAB написав(ла): It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity! But in the earlier days, typing and clerical activity were male dominated fields. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) Well, he did say module names, not language names. Few language names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC, LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL. Note that while that last one is descriptive, it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming language. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17/10/2013 20:43, Ian Kelly wrote: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) Well, he did say module names, not language names. Few language names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC, LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL. Note that while that last one is descriptive, it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming language. It's just so unfair, poor old CORAL gets left out of this type of list every time :( -- Roses are red, Violets are blue, Most poems rhyme, But this one doesn't. Mark Lawrence -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Op 17-10-13 16:38, Danyelle Davis schreef: I am a woman and all I can say to these things is.. Bringing light to these things do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking.. yea the names are dumb. But does it ever stop me. No. Mainly because ignore the college/boyish mentality that is associated with names like that. If that is correct than that speaks volumes for the sorry state the python community would be in. Just imagine there were modules with names that had racist or homofobic overtones. Would you suggest bringing light to these things would do nothing but give attention to the attention seeking? If bringing such things to light only gives attention to the attention seeking, that means the community is still soaked in bigotry and I hope the community is better than that. -- Antoon Pardon -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 18 October 2013 04:16, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) That would be https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Monty_Python not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pythonidae. The snake has been adopted as a mascot (see the Python icon) but is not the inspiration. Tim Delaney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17 October 2013 04:13, Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.ca wrote: Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit: ... There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, I think, worth discussing: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0) * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into showers now?) Personally I find it very hard to consider those disallowed terms. Sex isn't some abhorrent concept, and using nazi in colloquial informal usage is hardly in any way being disrespectful to victims of actual Nazism. We're not the moral police and we shouldn't act like it. Obviously names appropriate for formal usage are more convenient, but that's a different matter. It's not oppressing anyone. So, two questions: 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary behaviour? It's not our job to do anything. We can't clean the internet, so there's no point trying. Personally I think the common digressions into attacks on intellect and professionalism are much more socially regressed than the minute levels of sexism we have. As long as we take an appropriate stance on discovery, I'd say we're doing fine. 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, We just make sure that hurtful statements are frowned upon and potentially disallowed. Note that gay is not offensive (in fact, being offended by it would itself be socially regressive) whereas gays_are_worse_people would be. Also note that context applies: if the module generates gradients (remember that the rainbow is approved amongst the gay community) then it's just a bad name. If the module is itself offensive commentary or satire, that's a different story. if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? Oi, oi, oi. Calm down. The guy who made SexMachine, I bet, had the least intention to hurt anyone's feelings. You need to be careful not to imply such terms on these people. Also note that although you were talking about potential further bad names, you used SexMachine as one example. 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? No. You're not the police. If they're concerned and need help removing this stuff, lend support. But don't go forcing your more conservative views down their throats. it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. So, how should we be more awesome? As long as we raise issues as they become apparent, and when concerns are raised, I think we are acting appropriately. I'm not saying we should ignore transgressions, but as long as that vast non-sexist majority challenge sexism on sight, most sexism will be challenged and the social pressures will improve. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 17 October 2013 22:14, Joshua Landau jos...@landau.ws wrote: It's not our job to do anything. We can't clean the internet, so there's no point trying. Personally I think the common digressions into attacks on intellect and professionalism are much more socially regressed than the minute levels of sexism we have. This, by the way, was meant to refer to this list (being the social group of relevance) and not the tech community at large where sexism definitely is a large concern. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thursday 17 October 2013 17:34:15 Mark Lawrence did opine: On 17/10/2013 20:43, Ian Kelly wrote: On Thu, Oct 17, 2013 at 11:16 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) Well, he did say module names, not language names. Few language names are descriptive, and those that are tend to be acronyms: BASIC, LISP, COBOL, PHP, APL. Note that while that last one is descriptive, it does very little to distinguish itself from any other programming language. It's just so unfair, poor old CORAL gets left out of this type of list every time :( And I feel the same about ARexx. An extremely capable language for the amiga the only higher level language I ever wrote a commercial application in. But boy was I disappointed when I moved some ARexx code to linux tried to execute it with Regina. Never got past the 2nd line because Regina was in such a small sandbox it couldn't even ask the system for the correct time. Rexx/Regina might have had 5% of the functionality that ARexx had. But commode door never gave Bill Hawes a damned dime for his efforts, not even any royalties from his book. Cheers, Gene -- There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty: soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order. -Ed Howdershelt (Author) Power is danger. -- The Centurion, Balance of Terror, stardate 1709.2 A pen in the hand of this president is far more dangerous than 200 million guns in the hands of law-abiding citizens. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 10/16/13 11:13 PM, Owen Jacobson wrote: 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? The Ruby community seems to be a singular example of brogrammer culture: mostly young men, lots of drinking, lots of sex humor, extreme work intensity, arrogant intelligence, and a tendency to view women as people to get laid with, and a distinct lack of experience with working with women as equals or superiors. It's frat life transplanted to startup culture. I have no idea why this seems so endemic in the Ruby community; it probably has something to do with the huge popularity of Rails and the resurgence of tech startups over the past several years: both have created a gold rush environment that has attracted huge numbers of young programmers with technical chops but who are shockingly undeveloped in other ways. It's immature men meeting an immature business environment (i.e., a startup) without procedures in place to set an appropriate tone. Such behavior in most other fields would get them fired so fast it would make their heads spin, if not getting them drummed out of the field altogether. I suspect that Python doesn't have these problems because it's an older, more established language, and the community is comprised of older and more mature individuals who have outgrown such shenanigans, or never embraced them in the first place. Python has grown steadily but never had the boom that Ruby on Rails had. I'm sure the Python community has its issues with institutionalized sexism, not least because computer fields in general have so few women, but I have seen no evidence of the overt, sexist hostility that pervades brogrammer culture. As to what the Python community can do, I'm not sure what, apart from calling out the idiot brogrammers who perpetuate such hostility to women, and refusing to associate with it. The real opportunity to address this lies with the startup founders and executives who tolerate this kind of behavior, and don't send its perpetuators packing. Losing a job because you're a sexist jerk might get you thinking about the importance of treating all people with respect. If you're a startup founder who tolerates such behavior because you're afraid of losing your developers to other companies, then you're a coward; and if you simply don't see a problem with such behavior or deny that it exists, then you are worse than a coward, and you are worse than a jerk. Let me reiterate: the overt sexism and hostility toward women that emanates from brogrammer culture is shocking to anyone who works in a more established field with a better balance between men and women. I've worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and at no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything but immediate termination. Even the software startup I worked at did not have such issues; while the developers were all men, the company was founded by a husband-and-wife team, and the women who worked there (in technical writing and sales support) were treated with respect, because the founder would not tolerate anything else. It would be great to see more leaders at big tech companies speak out against such garbage. What impact would it have if Larry Page, Mark Zuckerberg, Marissa Meyer, and others say, If you do that crap here, you won't be here? Or what if venture capitalists said, We won't fund you if you don't provide an equitable work environment that puts jerks out on their rear end. Nothing short of some hard, painful experience is likely to have a large-scale change on the sexist culture that pervades so much of tech. A bit off-topic perhaps, for which I apologize, but I've been following the whole sexism in tech subject with increasing disgust and dismay, and I wanted to strongly protest against it. --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Walzer k...@codebykevin.com wrote: I've worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and at no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything but immediate termination. That's all very well, but what if these gems were created, not by someone at work (where termination is possible), but by a single guy at home (and I mean single in two senses here)? He's not going to lose his job over it - at least, I *hope* he wouldn't get fired for what he did on his own time - so where's the incentive going to come from? ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On 10/17/13 6:11 PM, Chris Angelico wrote: On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 8:50 AM, Kevin Walzer k...@codebykevin.com wrote: I've worked in marketing, editing, technical writing, and development, and at no place I have ever worked would such behavior be greeted with anything but immediate termination. That's all very well, but what if these gems were created, not by someone at work (where termination is possible), but by a single guy at home (and I mean single in two senses here)? He's not going to lose his job over it - at least, I *hope* he wouldn't get fired for what he did on his own time - so where's the incentive going to come from? ChrisA Well, putting the package name on an official List of Asshattery is a good start. --Kevin -- Kevin Walzer Code by Kevin/Mobile Code by Kevin http://www.codebykevin.com http://www.wtmobilesoftware.com -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 4:16 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) Heh, I do see the irony, but here's the deal: You have to get to know a language somewhat before you can make an honest appraisal of it, and that means knowing a lot more than its name. But you should be able to know broadly what a module does based on its name, so that when you see references to the module name in code, you have at least some idea of what's going on. Here's a smattering of Python module names, from the standard library: 8.1. datetime — Basic date and time types 8.11. pprint — Data pretty printer 9.6. random — Generate pseudo-random numbers 11.3. stat — Interpreting stat() results 12.6. sqlite3 — DB-API 2.0 interface for SQLite databases All of them make it very clear what they're doing. Okay, so you can't really learn much about sqlite3 other than that it interfaces with sqlite3, whatever that is. If you had a module named alsa, you wouldn't know that that's a way of playing sound unless you know what ALSA is elsewhere. But they're still linked fairly clearly with what they do, on some level of do. There are a few dodgier ones: 12.1. pickle — Python object serialization (flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive) 22.5. chunk — Read IFF chunked data (heaps of things are chunked, but calling it iff would have been just as confusing so there's probably no solution to this) but, especially in networking, you can easily find what you want based on an external requirement. Try searching the docs index for any internet protocol name; if you get a hit, chances are very high that it's a module that supports that. (ip is an exception, but ipv4 or ipv6 will get you to the ipaddress module's description, at least.) Pike is similar. Again, a few dodgy ones in the mix (Remote is an RPC module, quite a few are buried inside a package like Protocols or Standards, etc), but by and large, module names follow the Truly Scrumptious principle of sounding like what they are. Now, to be fair, I should look at pypi.python.org and modules.gotpike.org to compare against Ruby gems. Unfortunately I can't pinpoint usage stats of any sort, but I can (in each case) get a list of the most recently updated packages/modules, so hopefully the packages that get updates are the ones people use. Python: django-tornado iso8601 fjd mozilla-logger dexy vodafone-scraper ipwhois cashew django-subdomains-handler usethis-django-bootstrap A few dodgy ones (I don't know what cashew does without clicking its link), but mostly they're pretty descriptive. Pike modules are organized into categories, which makes it too easy: Public.Network.Pcap Public.Tools.Language.Hyphenate Database.EJDB Public.Protocols.Jabber Database.MongoDB (The Public part is a packaging recommendation, and can basically be ignored.) There are dodgy names around, though none have come up in the five-most-recent-edits list here. Now here's what I'm talking about, with Ruby. First off, any reference to gems or precious stones in any way is given a special pass, because of the environment (same as anything referencing Monty Python would be in Python - it's not fair to compare against those). Some of the names are descriptive: mail i18n tzinfo coffee-script jquery-rails But some are less clear: nokogiri - an HTML/XML/etc parser (might mean something if I knew Japanese, but all the docs are in English, so the name is a bit orphanned; most languages prefer to name things in English, as it's more internationally recognized) arel - an SQL AST manager ?? cocaine - A small library for doing (command) lines deface - lets you customize ERB, Haml and Slim views polyamorous - though the description indicates that it's somewhat internal therubyracer - interfaces with V8, the javascript engine thor - A scripting framework that replaces rake, sake and rubigen I know that all these are used, because they're all dependencies of a particular gem I've used at work (Spree), and I got the list by eyeballing this: https://github.com/spree/spree_base_1_2/blob/master/Gemfile.lock Most of them are names that I've seen getting installed during a Spree installation. This is what I mean. When module names aren't descriptive, code becomes less clear. When language names aren't descriptive, very little suffers. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
In article mailman.1186.1382050591.18130.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: 12.1. pickle Python object serialization (flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive) Actually, pickle is a very descriptive term. You might be thinking that a pickle is just a cucumber that's been soaked in brine, but the more generic meaning of pickle is to preserve something. In the aviation world, for example, they talk of pickling an engine as a way to put it in long-term storage. The analogy of putting data into long-term storage is perfectly reasonable. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 21:13:33 +0300, Serhiy Storchaka wrote: 17.10.13 20:37, MRAB написав(ла): It's interesting to note that, in the early days, programming was thought to be a suitable job for a woman because, after all, it involved typing, so basically it was just clerical activity! But in the earlier days, typing and clerical activity were male dominated fields. Correct. Secretary originally meant one who keeps secrets for another, e.g. the Secretary of State. I think MRAB is conflating programming with the first computers, who were women, not machines. Because it was tedious, repetitive work, and because most of the men were over in Europe getting shot at, nearly all of the computers at Bletchly Park were women. The actual mechanical computing devices were called bombes, I kid you not. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 08:50:26 +0200, Steve Hayes wrote: On 17 Oct 2013 05:48:10 GMT, Steven D'Aprano st...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote: While this flippant usage of Nazi (based on, as I understand it, Seinfeld's soup nazi) may be offensive, it has nothing to do with sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that. Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as soup nazi or grammar nazi, and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me. I thought left-wing types were particularly prone to using such terms, and tend to freely call anyone even slightly to the right of them fascist. No more so than right-wingers call anyone even slightly left socialist or communist. It it interesting to see how *rarely* the people accused of being socialists by right-wingers actually believe in socialist memes, while how *commonly* people accused of being fascists by the left actually believe and follow fascist memes. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, 18 Oct 2013 02:07:48 +1100, Chris Angelico wrote: Thing is, it's all very well to avoid using one particular module because you don't like its name... but what happens when there are a goodly number of such ill-named modules? Let's suppose you don't like the name readline because it offends your religion. (I'm deliberately picking something that I can't imagine actually being offensive; my sincere and humble apologies if there is anyone who actually IS offended by that name.) You might be able to use libedit instead, but what if that name also is offensive to you? (Again, apologies if it really is.) How long are you going to poke around for alternative modules before you throw your hands up and say This language sucks, all its modules have stupid names? Okay, I get that you're not actually talking about people being offended by modules literally called readline and libedit. I'm not really sure what conclusion we're supposed to draw from this little thought- experiment: - We need a Committee For Decent Module Names to vet the names allowed to be used for modules, libraries and frameworks lest they offend somebody? - If people are that easily offended, we're better off without them in the community? - You're not actually talking about Python, but some other hypothetical language community where 8 out of 10 module authors have the emotional maturity of a fourteen-year-old boy? - Something else? Or do you mean that you'd use something despite its offensive name, because the name doesn't bother you? If so, awesome for you, but unfortunately not everyone is so generous :) Really? I'm not actually sure that would be so awesome. I would be far more annoyed if people *used* a module called kill_all_redheads than by the mere existence of such a module. If the module exists, and actually does something useful, well, that's one immature or crackpot individual. Or perhaps its meant to be taken ironically, or as a joke, or the author is making some obscure point I'm not smart enough to get. Whatever. But if many people actually used this module, when they could use something else, or fork it under a different name, or re-engineer its functionality, that suggests that maybe they see nothing wrong with the sentiments expressed by it. And that would distress me more than the module name itself. Some yahoo has written a module called upskirt? Pfft, that's what yahoos do. I don't condone it, but as an isolated incident I don't lose any sleep over it either. That same module is (hypothetically) put into the standard library under that name, or widely used throughout the community? *That* would be a worry. Personally, I would avoid using profane names, if only because I don't like trying to explain to my boss what it is I'm using. So you only use sacred names? Isn't that blasphemous? You use Python? What's that? It's a language, named after a comedy group. Great! - vs - You use Brainf--? What's that? Uhh... it's a language... that I don't like to say the name of. Uhh - awkward. But not *anywhere* near as awkward as explain why you're using Brainfuck instead of, well, *just about any other friggin' language in the world*. It's a language designed to be mind-blowingly difficult to use. And you're using it instead of Forth or APL because...? I'm not actually missing the point. I'm pointing out that you appear to be inventing a problem that doesn't exist. When was the last time you were in the position of having to choose whether or not to use an actual useful product that had an embarrassing or offensive name? Same with module names. When I watched a Ruby app installing itself, I googled a few of the gem names out of morbid curiosity, and to be quite frank, I dislike a lot of them. Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. And I really don't think they need profanity, which some people apparently disagree with. Ah, now we're getting somewhere. Are you suggesting that the Ruby community does have a problem with obscene names that are not just widespread, but in widespread use? Well, that's certainly an interesting data point. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.) -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 11:10 AM, Roy Smith r...@panix.com wrote: In article mailman.1186.1382050591.18130.python-l...@python.org, Chris Angelico ros...@gmail.com wrote: 12.1. pickle ‹ Python object serialization (flavorful, fine once you know it, but a little unintuitive) Actually, pickle is a very descriptive term. You might be thinking that a pickle is just a cucumber that's been soaked in brine, but the more generic meaning of pickle is to preserve something. In the aviation world, for example, they talk of pickling an engine as a way to put it in long-term storage. The analogy of putting data into long-term storage is perfectly reasonable. Good point. I thought of pickle as the food and the expression in a pickle, neither of which captures the essence as well as the notion of preservation. Withdrawing the criticism - though it was minor even to start with. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Fri, Oct 18, 2013 at 2:14 PM, Steven D'Aprano steve+comp.lang.pyt...@pearwood.info wrote: On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 10:16:24 -0700, Roy Smith wrote: On Thursday, October 17, 2013 11:07:48 AM UTC-4, Chris Angelico wrote: Module names should be descriptive, not fancy. Interesting comment, on a mailing list for a language named after a snake, especially by a guy who claims to prefer an language named after a fish :-) It's not named after a snake, but after a British comedy group, Monty Python. And I daresay that Pike is named after a long stick with a spike and axe on the end. Just 'cos that would be cooler than naming it after the fish. I don't know which it was named after (could also be a road, eg turnpike), but the language's logo is the fish. (I'm not sure whether the fish was named after the weapon, or the weapon after the fish. But I'm pretty sure one was named after the other.) Maybe. Or maybe they're just short words that came from completely different sources. In any case, I don't deny the coolness of singing Gallant pikemen, valiant sworders (see Yeomen of the Guard by Gilbert and Sullivan) while coding in Pike... or playing the Spam Song while coding in Python... hmm, maybe that's not so impressive, but it is funny. ChrisA -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 9:13 PM, Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.cawrote: Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit: What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails community: * retarded * bitch * hoe * womanizer * recursive_pimp_slap * miniskirt * childlabor * bj * sex * fuck * rape-me * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still. * shag * db_nazi * and ass While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that as a community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there is nothing cool about naming your gem “fuck” or “retarded” and we as a community - need to stop this from happening as much as we can. Read the rest, it's pretty good. (A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.) It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python community's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar institutionalized sexism. The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable. Well done, us, in as much as there is an us to congratulate. There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, I think, worth discussing: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**SexMachine/0.1.1https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1- an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**sexytime/0.1.0https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0 ) * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/**pep8nazi/0.1https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1- do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into showers now?) So, two questions: 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary behaviour? 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call towards Pypi to drop unacceptable library names is a good idea either. However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. (The following is more of a satire reply to the original article than to your message. Entertainment, but some real thoughts to ponder as well. I think your suggestion of education and encouragement are good ideas... maybe. However, I do feel this is a non-issue.) This is more of a social argument than a programming issue and I'd argue it's even a non-issue. Since I'm waiting for a render to finish, and we known in advance we're simply wasting time discussing social and personal morality that won't amount to anything by next week, let's rock. One for the archives... Are we to police the names of computer files over the idea that someone might be offended or excluded or isn't included enough? Are we to form a committee of name approvers? Do we delete or change potentially offensive names? What if that means we break other code that depended upon those names? Who decides what is offensive? In what culture? In what language? In what era? In what context? Do we extend this idea to the names of other identifiers like variables and functions? foo.fuck_off() Does that get excluded as well? How about the documentation? A very slippery slope. Perhaps we could enforce a naming convention that takes into account a balance of module names, some
Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Last week, Elad Maidar wrote a fairly short but readable opinion piece[0] illustrating some long-standing social problems in the Ruby community, ending with a very specific call to action around naming conventions for Ruby projects and gems. To save you the trouble of scrolling to the bottom of this post and clicking, here's the relevant bit: What is missing you ask? I think that there is no consideration in women when it comes to gem naming convention, here are a few gems that i found in a 5 mintues search on Rubygems.org to demonstrate why women and other groups probably feel uncomfortable when trying to get into the Rails community: * retarded * bitch * hoe * womanizer * recursive_pimp_slap * miniskirt * childlabor * bj * sex * fuck * rape-me * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still. * shag * db_nazi * and ass While some of you may think this is a righteous callout - I think that as a community we need to strive to be as appealing as possible, there is nothing cool about naming your gem “fuck” or “retarded” and we as a community - need to stop this from happening as much as we can. Read the rest, it's pretty good. (A number of the named gems have been pulled by their authors.) It occurred to me to go digging around pypi - arguably[1] the Python community's equivalent to gems - to see if I could find similar institutionalized sexism. The good news: the specific examples Elad called out are STRIKINGLY absent from pypi. By and large the published python packages are inobjectionable. Well done, us, in as much as there is an us to congratulate. There are a few examples of the same sort of bad decision-making that are, I think, worth discussing: * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0) * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into showers now?) So, two questions: 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary behaviour? 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? I'm very much on the side of education, tolerance, and social consequences, not administrative fiat or organized retaliation. I think Elad's call for the Rubygems folks to unilaterally drop libraries is misguided, but well-intentioned, and I don't think the same sort of call towards Pypi to drop unacceptable library names is a good idea either. However, I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. So, how should we be more awesome? -o (For some additional context, and why I think passive acceptance isn't good enough, see http://iangent.blogspot.ca/2013/10/the-petrie-multiplier-why-attack-on.html .) [0] http://devandpencil.herokuapp.com/blog/2013/10/09/being-an-asshole-does-not-make-you-awesome/ [1] as in let's not have a packaging or language mudfight over it, please? Pretty please? -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013, at 23:13, Owen Jacobson wrote: * therapist - yeah, It passes as a double meaning - but still. Or a single meaning. Who's to say the person who wrote the module even had any idea it could be read otherwise? * shag Something to do with carpet? * db_nazi See below. * SexMachine (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/SexMachine/0.1.1 - an attempt to detect the gender of names, which… well, ask the nearest boy named Sue - or girl named Leslie) * sexytime (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/sexytime/0.1.0) * pep8nazi (https://pypi.python.org/pypi/pep8nazi/0.1 - do we shove non-PEP8-compliant authors into showers now?) While this flippant usage of Nazi (based on, as I understand it, Seinfeld's soup nazi) may be offensive, it has nothing to do with sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that. -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Wed, Oct 16, 2013 at 8:13 PM, Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.ca wrote: -snip- 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? Where, if not through the conventions for naming, do we encourage sexism, racism, and other mindlessly exclusionary behaviour? If some random dolt names their project nazi_kill_gays.py or some other clearly wrong thing, and I don't notice it, I'm not tolerating it. That standard is clearly absurd. Nor am I encouraging it. The word encourage is not a synonym for do not punish. As you can see, there is no convention encouraging sexist, racist, or otherwise exclusionary naming schemes. 2. What kind of social pressure can we bring to bear to _keep_ Python's package naming conventions as socially neutral as they are, if and when some high-profile dirtbag decides this language is the best language? How can we apply the same pressures to other parts of the Python community? The social pressure is that you get called a childish and immature hooligan, publicly, by the chair of the PSF. Along with an army of not-so-famous people yelling at you. It's apparently quite persuasive. http://holdenweb.blogspot.com/2011/07/childish-behavior.html Sincerely, -- Devin Jeanpierre -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
Owen Jacobson owen.jacob...@grimoire.ca writes: 1. What social biases and problems *do* we unwittingly encourage by way of community-tolerated behaviour? This is a well-worded good question, and I'd like to draw a connection with another one you ask: 3. How can we reach out to the Ruby community and help *them* get past the current crop of gender issues, and help them as a group to do better next time? Important to a solution is to realise that, in order to improve the community's arsehole problem, certain people will need to be excluded: the recidivist arseholes. Encouraging diversity is *not* the same thing as tolerating everyone. Some people will improve their behaviour and cease damaging the community, and are deserving of regaining some measure of trust to the extent that they demonstrate that. But some will not. These latter need to be identified early and excluded from the community, before their damage exceeds the value of those they make feel unwelcome. This necessity is uncomfortable. There is a dream is that, if we could only find the right formula, everyone would find their place comfortably in this happy community and no-one would have to confront anyone else because everyone wants to behave well. That dream is unrealistic. Some people will – for reasons of naivety, ignorance, privilege, denial, bigotry, self-justification, delusion, arrogance, whatever – continue behaving in ways that drive members, and potential members, away from the community far more than the value the misbehaving person brings to the community. So it is essential to accept that to maintain a community welcoming of diversity requires active effort on the part of its members, and some of that effort must be to confront misbehaving people and tell them that if they won't stop their misbehaviour, they're unwelcome. This is often resisted, even by those who don't want the bad behaviour, since it can sound like a contradiction or hipocrisy. It isn't, of course. What it is is something that to some ears sounds even worse, but is essential to maintaining a healthy community: Discrimination, based on how people behave. It's making a value judgement that to exclude a few unrepentant arseholes is worth the improvement in the community's welcome for non-arseholes. And without that active discrimination, people acting like arseholes will go unchallenged often enough that they can ruin the community for everyone else. I think it's hugely important and hugely beneficial that we welcome as many folks into the Python community as possible, and do our best to foster an environment where people can succeed regardless of who or what they are, and recent evidence suggests that that requires ongoing conversation and engagement, not just passive acceptance. Thanks for starting this conversation here. -- \ “Be careless in your dress if you must, but keep a tidy soul.” | `\ —Mark Twain, _Following the Equator_ | _o__) | Ben Finney -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
Re: Sexism in the Ruby community: how does the Python community manage it?
On Thu, 17 Oct 2013 00:22:47 -0400, random832 wrote: While this flippant usage of Nazi (based on, as I understand it, Seinfeld's soup nazi) may be offensive, it has nothing to do with sexism. If the scope of this discussion is to be offensive module names generally, then the subject line should have mentioned that. Almost one entire branch of my family (maternal grandfather's side) were murdered in the Nazi death camps during the Holocaust, but what I find offensive is the idea that all figurative or non-historical mention of the Nazis ought to be verboten. (I know that's not what *you* wrote, but others, the more earnest left-wing politically-correct types in particular, have said such things.) I'm particularly disturbed by the idea that I personally ought to be offended by terms such as soup nazi or grammar nazi, and if I'm not, there's something wrong with me. Let me tell you a true story: a Jewish friend of mine got a tattoo[1]. When her Holocaust-survivor grandfather found out, he rolled up the sleeve of his shirt, pointed to the ID tattooed on his forearm, and said I got a tattoo too, and I got it for free. Now that's class. There is nothing wrong with pep8nazi, and to paraphrase Stephen Fry, if you're offended, so what? There is no guarantee that you will go through life never seeing anything that offends you. [1] Well, technically she got more than one. But she wasn't going to admit to the others to her grandfather. -- Steven -- https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
