Web framework

[Gianluca Sartori]

Hi guys,

What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both at
Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
documentation.

Thanks for any suggestion,
Gianluca

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Re: Web framework

[dowskimania]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> What web framework do you suggest to develop with?

I really like CherryPy.  It has a very intuitive design.  A "directory"
is an object and the "files" in it are methods.  URL variables are
passed as arguments to the methods.  The CherryPy site has a good
tutorial and some examples that should get you up and running fairly
quickly.

http://www.cherrypy.org

> Thanks for any suggestion,
> Gianluca

Hope this helps.

Christian

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Re: Web framework

[Jeff Reavis]

You may also want to look at Spyce. It is similar to JSP,PHP, or ASP.
There are some good docs and examples at the site.

http://spyce.sourceforge.net/

-jjr

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Re: Web framework

[Fred Pacquier]

"Gianluca Sartori" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said :

> Hi guys,
> What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both at
> Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
> community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
> documentation.

Snakelets is nice, clean, simple to get started, and well documented. 
Karrigell is about in the same league. CherryPy is a step above (all IMO of 
course).

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Re: Web framework

[Phil Jackson]

"Gianluca Sartori" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> What web framework do you suggest to develop with?

I tend to use mod_python.

Phil
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Re: Web framework

[Gianluca Sartori]

Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
in a second time without spending too much time/money?

Thanks,
Gianluca

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Re: Web framework

[Tim Jarman]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:

> Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
> too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
> world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
> develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
> will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
> services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
> in a second time without spending too much time/money?
> 
> Thanks,
> Gianluca

Hi Gianluca,
In what respects do you think CherryPy falls short? There are some nice
performance stats on the CherryPy wiki (look under the FAQ) and in any case
you can run it behind Apache. It handles XML-RPC out of the box - not sure
about SOAP, but the design is sufficiently modular to add that in if
required. There are real-world sites using it in production; again, check
out the wiki.

HTH,
Tim

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Re: Web framework

[Carlos Ribeiro]

On 10 Mar 2005 03:30:28 -0800, Gianluca Sartori <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi Christian, thanks for your replay. I gave a quick look at cherryPy
> too, but I had the impression it wasn't enought to be used in a real
> world contest. What about performances? Can I safely consider it to
> develop an Intranet/Extranet? My main concern is with scalability. What
> will happend if my user-base will grow? What if I had to add web
> services interface (say XML-RPC or SOAP) to my application? Can I do it
> in a second time without spending too much time/money?

Far from true :-) A few data points (taken from
http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPySpeed):

- In 99% of the cases, the answer is "this depends on your actual
application code, not on CherryPy itself".

- CherryPy averages 429 requests/second, in threaded mode (which
includes the penalty for thread-switching), in a  Pentium 1.6 Ghz, 1GB
RAM, under Windows XP 2. The test was run using ab, the load testing
tool from the apache project.

- In practice, we found it easier to exceed available bandwidth than
to exceed CherryPy's limits. With something as low as 200 requests/s
one can get a few MB/s of throughput (that's measurable, but I don't
have the numbers for this test; but to the math yourself, for a 10Kb
page...). Of course, Intranet sites do not suffer from this problem,
but the userbase is usually limited.

- The worst case scenario is when one have lots of small objects to
serve. This usually means static content (icons & small gif files),
and can be greatly accelerated by running CherryPy under a caching
frontend - either Apache, or even squid in web acceleration mode work
just fine.

While you are at it, check also this page:

http://www.cherrypy.org/wiki/CherryPyProductionSetup

-- 
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Consultoria em Projetos
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blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
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Re: Web framework

[Chris]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] says...
> Gianluca Sartori wrote:
> > Hi guys,
> >
> > What web framework do you suggest to develop with?
> 
> I really like CherryPy.  It has a very intuitive design.  A "directory"
> is an object and the "files" in it are methods.  URL variables are
> passed as arguments to the methods.  The CherryPy site has a good
> tutorial and some examples that should get you up and running fairly
> quickly.
> 
> http://www.cherrypy.org
> 
> > Thanks for any suggestion,
> > Gianluca
> 
> Hope this helps.
> 
> Christian
> 
> 
Does CherryPy require a python installation on the client side?
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Re: Web framework

[Lutz Horn]

Chris <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does CherryPy require a python installation on the client side?

No, it only sends HTML-pages and other media to the client's browser.
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Re: Web framework

[Gianluca Sartori]

Well, my concern here was mostly about SSL support. It seems it's not
supported natively. Anyway, I'm looking at all those frameworks by a
'pre-evaluation' point of you. so I'm fully trusting what I can read on
their websites...

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Re: Web framework

[andre . p . meyer]

Gianluca Sartori wrote:
> Hi guys,
>
> What web framework do you suggest to develop with? I had a look both
at
> Nevow and Quixote. These seemes to be the most appreciated by the
> community. Anyway, I had no luck looking for a complete and coherent
> documentation.
> 
> Thanks for any suggestion,
> Gianluca

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Re: Web framework

[andre . p . meyer]

You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

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Re: Web framework

[Sridhar]

I'd say Nevow! For apache setup, you might be interested in my wsgi [1]
implementation.

[1]
http://twistedmatrix.com/pipermail/twisted-web/2005-March/001293.html

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Re: Web framework

[Joe]

On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
>documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.

Joe.
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Re: Web framework

[Diez B. Roggisch]

Joe wrote:

> On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> 
>>You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
>>documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.
> 
> But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
> accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.

Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV. In kde under linux, all
file-io can be done through these protocols, so you can operate on them as
if they were local files.
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Re: Web framework

[Venkat B]

> I'd say Nevow! For apache setup, you might be interested in my wsgi [1]
> implementation.

Hi Sridhar,

Are you aware of Nevow's "integrability" with the webservers (CGIHTTPServer
in particular) that come packaged with Python itself ?

Thanks,
/venkat


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Re: Web framework

[Joe]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:20:34 +0100, "Diez B. Roggisch"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV.

Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

Joe.
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Re: Web framework

[Josef Meile]

Hi Joe,
Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?
I guess you are reffering to "Python Scripts" and "ZClasses", which
indeed are stuck in the ZODB. But in fact you can write external python
products for zope, which reside on your file system. What is stuck in
the ZODB would be the instances of those products.
Regards,
Josef
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Re: Web framework

[Diez B. Roggisch]

> Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
> tools can work through FTP or WebDav ..  

If your tools can't, then you can still use ftp clients to push the files to
the server. Actually lots of web-development is done by working locally on
the files, then publishing these to the server. Think of the horror to
create apache modules with certain lib dependencies (e.g. oracle) under
windows. Some people I know even abuse CVS for uploading their files to the
server - which renders CVS pretty useless.

And quite a few tools _are_ capable of directly using ftp as storage
backend. (x)emacs for example.

> Besides, how to have the 
> source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?

You can still fetch it using webdav and ftp and stick it into CVS/SVN. 


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Re: Web framework

[Joe]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 11:18:10 +0100, Josef Meile <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>I guess you are reffering to "Python Scripts" and "ZClasses", which
>indeed are stuck in the ZODB. But in fact you can write external python
>products for zope, which reside on your file system. What is stuck in
>the ZODB would be the instances of those products.

Right, but it's still a pain. Incidently, this is the reason for
Zope-inspired frameworks like CherryPy, ie. Zope with ol' fashioned
dev tools.

Joe.
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Re: Web framework

[Lee Harr]

On 2005-03-14, Joe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 19:20:34 +0100, "Diez B. Roggisch"
><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>Plain wrong. You can access them via FTP and WEBDAV.
>
> Not wrong. I am aware of this, but it's not like that many development
> tools can work through FTP or WebDav... Besides, how to have the
> source code under source control if it's stuck in the ZODB?
>


All of the KDE tools can use ftp or webdav natively.

I actually use kate mostly and access my zope content
through webdavs (webdav over ssl).

It is true that some content is less amenable to
storage in source control, but if you create on-disk
products instead of zclasses it is less of a problem.

That said, how about a ZODB storage class that sits
on top of an svn store? That might be killer!
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Re: Web framework

[Carlos Ribeiro]

On Mon, 14 Mar 2005 21:36:36 GMT, Lee Harr <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> That said, how about a ZODB storage class that sits
> on top of an svn store? That might be killer!

I don't know very much about the ZODB, having using it very little.
What you say seems to be possible -- implement the ZODB 'protocol'
over a SVN backend... not sure about how things such as the
authentication system would be mapped though. But it's an intriguing
idea.

-- 
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Consultoria em Projetos
blog: http://rascunhosrotos.blogspot.com
blog: http://pythonnotes.blogspot.com
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Re: Web framework

[Benji York]

Joe wrote:
On 13 Mar 2005 01:13:00 -0800, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
You should definitely have a look at Zope 3. There is good
documentation available and it can do a lot of good stuff.

But then, the thing I hate about Zope, is that source code is not
accessible with normal development tools since it's stuck in the ZODB.
That's not entirely true of Zope 2, and not true at all for Zope 3.  All 
code for Zope 3 is loaded from the file system.  I've been happily 
hacking away on Z3 for months using Vim, Subversion, grep, etc.  Some 
have even been know to use Emacs, the horror! :)

Zope 3 was designed from the ground-up to be friendlier to Python 
programmers that don't have a great deal of Zope 2 experience.  Being a 
long-time Python programmer, I've *really* enjoyed Zope 3.

There is a slide show introduction at 
http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/ProgrammerTutorial 
(http://tinyurl.com/68qwj).

There are two Zope 3 books out.  A draft of one is available at 
http://www.zope.org/DevHome/Wikis/DevSite/Projects/ComponentArchitecture/FrontPage/Zope3Book 
(http://tinyurl.com/5nj66).

Also note that Z3 comes with many doctests that help developers 
understand the various parts of the system.
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Re: Web framework

[Joe]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 00:07:34 -0500, Benji York <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
>That's not entirely true of Zope 2, and not true at all for Zope 3.  All 
>code for Zope 3 is loaded from the file system.

Great news :-) I'll go check it out.

Joe.
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Re: Web framework

[Stephen Thorne]

On Sun, 13 Mar 2005 13:21:27 -0800, Venkat B <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > I'd say Nevow! For apache setup, you might be interested in my wsgi [1]
> > implementation.
> 
> Hi Sridhar,
> 
> Are you aware of Nevow's "integrability" with the webservers (CGIHTTPServer
> in particular) that come packaged with Python itself ?

Nevow functions as its own web server. You don't need CGIHTTPServer,
you just run twisted.web instead.

Stpehen.
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Web Framework Reviews

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

Hello All,

I thought it would make sense to write up some of my experiences with
python based web frameworks:

http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python_reviews.html

best,

Istvan.

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I thought it would make sense to write up some of my experiences with
> python based web frameworks:
> 
> http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python_reviews.html

You've never used Nevow, have you?
Comparing it to Cheetah or ZPT means that you never used it.

Nevow is exactly what you define as a web framework, and it would be
quite interesting to know why you didn't put it in that section.

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

I have not used Nevow but I have seen a few examples of how it works
and I kept track of it over the years.

It used to be very similar to how Cheetah or ZPT does its job. You had
a template, and you filled it with data to produce an output. It seems
that it has now more features such a form submission and validation.

On the other hand I even in its current form I don't see how I would to
the simple things that I need every day. Create a session, set a
cookie, redirect to another url,  perform HTTP autentication, create
filter,  use another templating language? This is also integral part of
the  functionality that I expect from an web framework. Web specific
things exposed in some python ic way.

To avoid any negative feelings I'll remove all remarks to what I think
is not a web framework.

Istvan.

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I have not used Nevow but I have seen a few examples of how it works
> and I kept track of it over the years.
> 
> It used to be very similar to how Cheetah or ZPT does its job. You had
> a template, and you filled it with data to produce an output. It seems
> that it has now more features such a form submission and validation.

Formless has been part of nevow since the very beginning. It has also
been part of woven (Nevow predecessor), just like liveevil (now enhanced
and called livepage). 

The only part of nevow that you can compare to ZPT or Cheetah is its
xmlfile template language. There is no way you can run Nevow on top of
any other framework.

Also you don't pass data to the templating engine. It's nevow that
parses the template and iterates over it to render the page. The
template is very stupid in nevow and everything is done in
nevow.flat.flattenFactory called by nevow.rend.Page.
 
> On the other hand I even in its current form I don't see how I would to
> the simple things that I need every day. Create a session, set a
> cookie, redirect to another url,  perform HTTP autentication, create
> filter,  use another templating language? This is also integral part of
> the  functionality that I expect from an web framework. Web specific
> things exposed in some python ic way.

Sessions are handled by default with twisted.web:

from twisted.application import service, strports
from nevow import appserver

from nevow import rend, loaders, tags as t, inevow

class RootPage(rend.Page):
addSlash = True
def display_session(self, ctx, data):
return inevow.ISession(ctx).uid

docFactory = loaders.stan(
t.html[t.head[t.title["Session example"]],
t.body[display_session]]
)

application = service.Application('Foobar')
site = appserver.NevowSite(RootPage())
server = strports.service('8080', site)
server.setServiceParent(application)

Save this in a .py or .tac and run it with twistd -noy filename.tac/.py
and open http://localhost:8080/ in your browser to see your session uid.

If you want autentication:
http://nevowexamples.adytum.us/sources/guarded.py
http://nevowexamples.adytum.us/sources/guarded2.py
There are 2 examples (in the standard nevow distribution) that show how
to handle authentication in an application transparent way (you don't
have to touch your application by any means to add user authentication,
which means you can write everything without taking care of this aspect
of the app and then add it later).

To redirect to another url just call IRequest(ctx).redirect(newurl)
before the rendering begins (like in rend.Page.beforeRender) or in
rend.Page.locateChild.

HTTPAuthentication is easily handled:
http://nevowexamples.adytum.us/sources/http_auth.py
just use that class as a base class for your blocked page.
(this example is part of the standard nevow distribution).

Nevow doesn't have filters because they are handled by twisted.web or
twisted.web2 (which is, hopefully soon, going to be one of the required
webservers to run nevow, the others are lighttpd, apache, any WSGI
application server, nevow was in fact the first framework to support
WSGI servers).

If you want to use a different templating language you just need to
write a custom loader. Somebody did this in the past (I don't recall the
url of the project) that used cheetah-like templates.

Then for the last point:
you can expose directories or files using
nevow.static.File

exposed objects are:
those set as a value in rend.Page.children dict, you can reach them with
an url like:
http://www.example.com/url/that/returns/a/page/inst/key_in_children_dict
Or assign an object to a child_foobar attribute like:

p = rend.Page()
p.child_foobar = static.File('/etc/')

Or return an object from a child_foobar method.

Or override rend.Page.childFactory(self, ctx, segment) to return an
object in a dynamic way depending on the value of the segment argument.

It seems to me that you really never tracked Nevow, your information is
very incomplete. I think you should complete it before talking about
Nevow :).

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Dave Cook]

On 2005-07-19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> On the other hand I even in its current form I don't see how I would to
> the simple things that I need every day. Create a session, set a
> cookie, redirect to another url,  perform HTTP autentication, create
> filter,  use another templating language? This is also integral part of
> the  functionality that I expect from an web framework. Web specific
> things exposed in some python ic way.

Take a look at the Nevow FAQ and examples.  Also, Nevow sits on top of
Twisted, so you have all of Twisted's features available.

http://divmod.org/users/wiki.twistd/nevow/moin.cgi/FrequentlyAskedQuestions

Dave Cook
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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> It seems to me that you really never tracked Nevow, your information is
> very incomplete. I think you should complete it before talking about  Nevow

I think you should take what you posted above and put it up on your
main site, because right now there is no way to find any information
like this.  Your entire intro is about templating and leaves one with
no clues as to what else is there.

One remark regarding stan. For me it is inconceivable that one would
build (and debug) any complicated webpage as stan does it, one element
at a time:

 docFactory = loaders.stan(
t.html[t.head[t.title["Session example"]],
t.body[display_session]]
)

The pages that I have to build invariably contain multiple nested html
tables etc. I shudder to think that I would ever have to build them
like that. I know you have an "inverse" ZPT like templates those are a
lot friendlier on the eyes. For someone who is does not know what Nevow
is seeing an example of Stan is very scary  because IMO it does not
scale at all. This again is just an opinion.

Thanks for the explanations. 
 
Istvan.

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think you should take what you posted above and put it up on your
> main site, because right now there is no way to find any information
> like this.  Your entire intro is about templating and leaves one with
> no clues as to what else is there.

Right now there are at least 2 web sites: 
http://divmod.org/users/exarkun/nevow-api/   + file inevow.py in nevow.
http://divmod.org/users/mg/nevow-doc/

And a new one:
http://dictator.kieranholland.com/prose/Meet%20Stan.html

And the page I linked in my previous post:
http://nevowexamples.adytum.us/ 
this is a living site with the living examples distributed with nevow.
at least one example of formless does not work right now because of
changes that we are doing in trunk right now (only formless has some
problems, all the others work pretty well).

There are really a lot of examples, and you can learn a lot of stuff
from them. More documentation will be useful for sure, but by just
coming in the irc channel #twisted.web on freenode you would have
obtained all the answers you wanted to write a better review paper :).

> One remark regarding stan. For me it is inconceivable that one would
> build (and debug) any complicated webpage as stan does it, one element
> at a time:
> 
>  docFactory = loaders.stan(
> t.html[t.head[t.title["Session example"]],
> t.body[display_session]]
> )
> 
> The pages that I have to build invariably contain multiple nested html
> tables etc. I shudder to think that I would ever have to build them
> like that. I know you have an "inverse" ZPT like templates those are a
> lot friendlier on the eyes. For someone who is does not know what Nevow
> is seeing an example of Stan is very scary  because IMO it does not
> scale at all. This again is just an opinion.

I have a little project, developed during my little free time that is
linked in my signature (weever). It has over 2000 lines of xhtml
templates and you can see a living example here:
http://vercingetorix.dyndns.org:20080/

I can guarantee you that when templates begin to be a bit too complex
stan is what saves the day. I usually use xhtml for everything (and
nevow has the best templating engine out there thanks to its flexibility
and simplicity, there are only 3 special tags and 3 attributes, and we
are working to make it even easier than that) but when xhtml gets
complicated stan is incredibly useful.

Anyway stan is also incredibly useful to write little examples without
requiring a new xhtml file (ok... you may use loaders.xmlstr but...)

And it does scale well anyway (Quotient is entirely built using stan and
it's very big).
Templating engines like ZPT prefer to put some code in the template,
Nevow prefers to put code in python and allow you to write some xhtml in
python too. python is easier to manage and less likely to be screwed by
any designer that doesn't know what python is.

> Thanks for the explanations. 

np :)

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Now Running MacOSX 10.4
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
http://weever.berlios.de
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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[John Ziniti]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> I thought it would make sense to write up some of my experiences with
> python based web frameworks:
> 
> http://www.personal.psu.edu/staff/i/u/iua1/python_reviews.html
> 

 From the web-page:

"""
Zope - Generation Z

...

Weakness: Not pythonic. In fact you can barely use python with it! 
Ad-hoc lookup rules, competing standards DHTML vs ZPT. Can only be used 
with these two! The Z shaped thingy.

"""

"barely use python with it" and "can only be used with these two" are
not entirely true.  Zope development can be done in a through-the-web
(TTW) fashion or via filesystem products.  When developing TTW, it
is true that you are somewhat limited in the amount of Python that
you will be able to use.

When you graduate to filesystem products, though, Zope becomes more of
a set of APIs and a persistence layer for your objects and methods
that are coded entirely in Python, with very little DTML (not DHTML)
and ZPTs.  IMHO, this is when Zope development becomes powerful.

Maybe this is the Z-shaped learning curve you speak of:  it takes a
while developing in Zope to even know what all of the options are!

HTH,
JZ
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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Josef Meile]

> "barely use python with it" and "can only be used with these two" are
> not entirely true.  Zope development can be done in a through-the-web
> (TTW) fashion or via filesystem products.  When developing TTW, it
> is true that you are somewhat limited in the amount of Python that
> you will be able to use.
I just want to add that ZPT and DTML are only intended for the
presentation and not for the logic, which can be done all using python.
However, as you may see, there are some zope developers that use it
wrong and do lots of logic stuff within dtml or zpt.

Regards,
Josef

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Tim Parkin]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> One remark regarding stan. For me it is inconceivable that one would
> build (and debug) any complicated webpage as stan does it, one element
> at a time:
> 
>  docFactory = loaders.stan(
> t.html[t.head[t.title["Session example"]],
> t.body[display_session]]
> )
> 
> The pages that I have to build invariably contain multiple nested html
> tables etc. I shudder to think that I would ever have to build them
> like that. I know you have an "inverse" ZPT like templates those are a
> lot friendlier on the eyes. For someone who is does not know what Nevow
> is seeing an example of Stan is very scary  because IMO it does not
> scale at all. This again is just an opinion.

Firstly, I don't know of anyone who has built whole sites out of stan
(it's not what it was created for). Although if built in a modular
fashion I don't see why this would have problems 'scaling' or would be
more difficult to visualise than a the equivalent tag soup html.

Also it depends on what you mean by scale. We built a site for one of
the biggest rugby sites in the world (over 300 requests per second).
This uses a combination of stan and xhtml templates. Before we rebuilt
the site using CSS layout (which you really should be looking at using
to avoid the multiple nested tables you mention - which I presume are
layout related) we were using client supplied html which was nested more
than 10 levels deep.

Most of this we were able to leave in the html and allow the client to
manage via ftp. The bits that were dynamic were 'templated up' by
putting slots and renderers. Nevow avoids any programmatic logic in the
templates which means that all logic is directly in your python code
(avoiding one of templating languages biggest faults - that of
implementing *another* language just for templates).

Templates now become a repository of html which is marked up with insert
points, replacement points, patterns to reuse, etc. Sometimes you need
to generate some dynamic html that won't easily and clearly fit into
this 'extract patterns, replace sections, etc' pattern. When this
happens you can either include bits of html as strings (yeuch!) *or* use
stan.

Stan enables you to create small sections of dynamic html without
recourse to templating languages or marking up tiny fragments of html
for re-use.

This section of code from the nevow forms library (this is a widget for
file uploads).

if name:
if self.preview == 'image':
yield T.p[value,T.img(src=self.fileHandler.getUrlForFile(value))]
else:
yield T.p[value]
else:
yield T.p[T.strong['nothing uploaded']]

yield T.input(name=namer('value'),value=value,type='hidden')
yield T.input(name=key, id=keytocssid(ctx.key),type='file')

In other systems, this would have to be part of the template (via inline
python or some alternative programming syntax), marked up as html in
string elements (liable to validation errors and difficult to manage) or
 small fragments of html would have to be marked up as patterns and then
manipulated in some fashion. The last is possible using nevow and the
manipulation can be done directly on the produced html -- or via stan!!
(think of manipulating a dom'ish like object).

Tim Parkin


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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[[EMAIL PROTECTED]]

> don't see why this would have problems 'scaling' or would be
> more difficult to visualise than a the equivalent tag soup html.

I think the difficulties will arise from the inability to visually
track closing tags.
]]] versus 

> Templating engines like ZPT prefer to put some code in the template,
> Nevow prefers to put code in python and allow you to write some xhtml in
> python too.

Oh yeah, now I remeber, I think this is a controversial idea.

Istvan.

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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> I think the difficulties will arise from the inability to visually
> track closing tags.
> ]]] versus 

You can do things like:

t.html[
t.head[
t.title["Foobar"]
],
t.body[
t.p["This is some content"]
]
]

This is not harder than normal xhtml tags to follow. plus you don't have
to remember what tag you are closing :)

-- 
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Now Running MacOSX 10.4
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
http://weever.berlios.de
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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[Leif K-Brooks]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
>>Templating engines like ZPT prefer to put some code in the template,
>>Nevow prefers to put code in python and allow you to write some xhtml in
>>python too.
> 
> Oh yeah, now I remeber, I think this is a controversial idea.

One important thing to realise about Nevow is that it doesn't forbid you
from putting logic in the template, it simply doesn't encourage it.
There's nothing stopping you from writing render_while and render_if
methods for Nevow -- in fact, it would be quite easy. But once you
really understand Nevow and how it works, you realize that you don't
need to put logic in the template, because there's a better way.
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Re: Web Framework Reviews

[flupke]

Dave Cook wrote:
> On 2005-07-19, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>>On the other hand I even in its current form I don't see how I would to
>>the simple things that I need every day. Create a session, set a
>>cookie, redirect to another url,  perform HTTP autentication, create
>>filter,  use another templating language? This is also integral part of
>>the  functionality that I expect from an web framework. Web specific
>>things exposed in some python ic way.
> 
> 
> Take a look at the Nevow FAQ and examples.  Also, Nevow sits on top of
> Twisted, so you have all of Twisted's features available.
> 
> http://divmod.org/users/wiki.twistd/nevow/moin.cgi/FrequentlyAskedQuestions
> 
> Dave Cook

One could use twisted.web2 also without the nevow part.
The docs @ http://twistedmatrix.com/projects/web2/documentation/ are 
very clear and it contains a good example at the end.

Benedict
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Web framework comparison video

[Iain King]

http://compoundthinking.com/blog/index.php/2006/03/10/framework-comparison-video/

Thought this might be interesting to y'all.  (I can't watch it 'cos I'm
at work, so any comments about it would be appreciated :)

Iain

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Web framework to recommend

[Jacky]

Hi all,

I just started learning Python and would like to starting writing some 
web-based applications with Python.

I did have pretty much experience with doing so with PHP and Java, but 
Python seems a bit different for me.

Do you guys have some good web framework to recommend? (I don't want to 
use CGI mode)

Thanks a lot.

--
Jacky
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Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Mike Thompson]

'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web 
Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation 
Based Web Apps".

http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/
Very sexy it looks too.  And it seems to be generating a lot of interest 
- Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:

 http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
 http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/
I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found 
was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks like 
an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems to be 
delivering.

Anyway, I guess all I'm doing is drawing this to the community's 
attention. Sophisticated web applications seems to be one of Python's 
key domains and this looks a significant new development in the area.

--
Mike
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Re: Web framework comparison video

[Sybren Stuvel]

Iain King enlightened us with:
> http://compoundthinking.com/blog/index.php/2006/03/10/framework-comparison-video/
>
> Thought this might be interesting to y'all.  (I can't watch it 'cos
> I'm at work, so any comments about it would be appreciated :)

It's a nice video, I really enjoyed it. Even though the website you
linked says it's a 60 minute vid, it's only just over 30 minutes.

So far, I've created my own web framework - mostly because I didn't
see a simple to use framework that could do what I wanted it to do:
properly handle client-side caching. Looking at the Plone website, it
looks like they do support that. Perhaps I'll look into Plone for my
site in the future ;-) For now, I'm very happy with my own framework
(http://www.unrealtower.org/engine)

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
 Frank Zappa
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Re: Web framework comparison video

[Sybren Stuvel]

Sybren Stuvel enlightened us with:
> Perhaps I'll look into Plone for my site in the future ;-)

I take that back. The Plone webserver is hosted by XS4ALL, the best
ISP in The Netherlands, which resides in Amsterdam. I happen to live
in Amsterdam too, so you'd expect the site to be fast. Well, it took 5
to 15 seconds to get a page from their FAQ[1], which is just way too
slow. As a comparison, the XS4ALL website[2] took only 0.4 seconds. I
tested it using "time lynx -dump $URL >/dev/null".

[1] http://plone.org/documentation/faq/products-for-plone
[2] http://www.xs4all.nl/

> For now, I'm very happy with my own framework
> (http://www.unrealtower.org/engine)

Looks like I'll be happy a while longer!

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
 Frank Zappa
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Re: Web framework to recommend

[.]

Hi Jacky,
if you want make a good experiment, you can use:

LocaWapp - localhost web applications
http://cheeseshop.python.org/pypi/LocaWapp/09

Post here your feedback.
Bye and good work

D.

Jacky ha scritto:

> Hi all,
>
> I just started learning Python and would like to starting writing some
> web-based applications with Python.
>
> I did have pretty much experience with doing so with PHP and Java, but
> Python seems a bit different for me.
>
> Do you guys have some good web framework to recommend? (I don't want to
> use CGI mode)
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> --
> Jacky

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Re: Web framework to recommend

[jdec]

Hi, Jacky

Please find below a link to the tool you're looking for :
http://karrigell.sourceforge.net/

It's small, easy to install and work with, good documented (In english
an in french).
The developper is also very reactive on questions / remarks.

I'm using it since more than 1 year without trouble

Hope you'll enjoy
Regards,Jerome

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Re: Web framework to recommend

[Sybren Stuvel]

Jacky enlightened us with:
> I just started learning Python and would like to starting writing
> some web-based applications with Python.

You could check out my web framework, the UnrealTower Engine. It uses
Cheetah as template engine, it's fast and small - it doesn't get in
your way.

http://www.unrealtower.org/engine

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
 Frank Zappa
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Re: Web framework to recommend

[bruno at modulix]

Jacky wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just started learning Python and would like to starting writing some
> web-based applications with Python.
> 
> I did have pretty much experience with doing so with PHP and Java, but
> Python seems a bit different for me.
> 
> Do you guys have some good web framework to recommend? (I don't want to
> use CGI mode)

There's quite a lot of (good) web frameworks for Python, and choosing
the right one depends a lot on specific requirements you didn't express...


-- 
bruno desthuilliers
python -c "print '@'.join(['.'.join([w[::-1] for w in p.split('.')]) for
p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
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Re: Web framework to recommend

[BLeAm]

Hi Jacky,

Even though Turbogears and Django are focused from many people,
and I'm not so sure whether this the best or not,
but let's check at http://spyce.sourceforge.net,
you can embed Python script into the page just like JPS,ASP,PHP.

Hope this help.

Cheers!

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Re: Web framework to recommend

[Jacky]

Hi all,

Thanks all of you for your recommendations, I'll check them out one by one.

Besides, I'd like to say more about what I want to do.  Since I'm 
planning to write something for "backend", I might not focus very much 
on the layout (HTML template) yet.  Instead, I'd like to receive inputs 
in XML format and then output XML after processing (or maybe I should 
use web services, perhaps?).

Of course, I will write a complete web application in my other projects 
(such as those I wrote with PRADO and JSF), so all recommendations are 
welcomed :)

Thank you!


Best Wishes,

Jacky




Jacky wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I just started learning Python and would like to starting writing some 
> web-based applications with Python.
> 
> I did have pretty much experience with doing so with PHP and Java, but 
> Python seems a bit different for me.
> 
> Do you guys have some good web framework to recommend? (I don't want to 
> use CGI mode)
> 
> Thanks a lot.
> 
> -- 
> Jacky
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Re: Web framework to recommend

[bruno at modulix]

Jacky wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> Thanks all of you for your recommendations, I'll check them out one by one.
> 
> Besides, I'd like to say more about what I want to do.  Since I'm
> planning to write something for "backend", I might not focus very much
> on the layout (HTML template) yet.  Instead, I'd like to receive inputs
> in XML format and then output XML after processing (or maybe I should
> use web services, perhaps?).
>
> Of course, I will write a complete web application in my other projects
> (such as those I wrote with PRADO and JSF), so all recommendations are
> welcomed :)

You might want to have a look at Turbogears.



> Thank you!
> 
> 
(snip)

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p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
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Re: Web framework to recommend

[Miki]

Hello Jacky,

I found CherryPy + Cheeta a good solution.
See (shameless plug)
http://www.unixreview.com/documents/s=10075/ur0604h/

Miki
http://pythonwise.blogspot.com

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Re: Web framework comparison video

[AndyL]

Iain King wrote:
> http://compoundthinking.com/blog/index.php/2006/03/10/framework-comparison-video/
> 
> Thought this might be interesting to y'all.  (I can't watch it 'cos I'm
> at work, so any comments about it would be appreciated :)

Indeed it was. The headache factor is 1, for some reason my Mandrake 
2006 media players mute the sound. Had to boot to M$ :-(.

A.
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Re: Web framework comparison video

[Paul Boddie]

AndyL wrote:
>
> Indeed it was. The headache factor is 1, for some reason my Mandrake
> 2006 media players mute the sound. Had to boot to M$ :-(.

Yes, these Web 2.0 pretenders just love their proprietary formats:
Flash, QuickTime, etc. But then I guess Web 2.0 to them is all about
compromising the open nature of the Web, accessibility,
interoperability, with shiny things that are "OK because they work on
my iBook".

Paul

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Re: Web framework comparison video

[Adam Jones]

Just as a note, TurboGears has added a lot that would change the
scoring on this. The project has been moving pretty quickly towards 1.0
lately, and I would advise anyone interested in a comparison to check
out the recent changes before making a final decision. The same will
probably hold true for many of the projects mentioned though.

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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[@(none)]

Mike Thompson wrote:
'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web 
Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation 
Based Web Apps".
Continuation Based Frameworks seem to be getting quite some attention 
lately. For example in the Lisp world. Check out Bill Clementson's blog 
for some excellent posts.

http://home.comcast.net/~bc19191/blog/041229.html
And Seaside looks indeed very nice. Would be good to see it generate 
some new interests in Smalltalk/Squeak.

I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. 
Does Python really need yet another framework? Apart from the 
intellectual excersise, wouldn't it be nice if Python would get a 
framework "for the rest of us" (meaning: mere mortals) which would focus 
 upon getting work done in a simple manner instead of creating yet 
another, new, hip, exciting, way of creating dynamic websites? If Python 
cannot deliver a PHP clone, at least you would expect a Rails lookalike. 
And though part of the Rails stack may be surpassed easily by Python 
equivalents, no Python alternative offers (imho of course) the same 
level of simplicity, elegance and pragmatism (!!) as Rails does.

Regards,
Iwan
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[gabriele renzi]

Mike Thompson ha scritto:
'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web 
Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation 
Based Web Apps".

http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/
Very sexy it looks too.  And it seems to be generating a lot of interest 
- Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:

 http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
 http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/
actually, there are also implementations in Scheme, Common Lisp 
(UnCommonWeb) and Cocoon-FLOW has similar concepts.
 And somewhere (I think on the portland pattern repository) I recall 
reading that Viaweb (aka "the first web app") was written in CPS. Also 
notice that the Wee project in ruby is more advanced that Borges.

I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found 
was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks like 
an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems to be 
delivering.
I think "independent" more than earlier, it seem many people are 
reinventing this from time to time.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that IIRC something on this lines 
appeared recently in the nevow svn tree, maybe you can take a look.
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Steve Holden]

gabriele renzi wrote:
Mike Thompson ha scritto:
'Seaside' is a Smalltalk framework for what might be called "Modal Web 
Development" or "Synchronous Web Programming", or even "Continuation 
Based Web Apps".

http://www.beta4.com/seaside2/
Very sexy it looks too.  And it seems to be generating a lot of 
interest - Ruby and Java variants have already sprung up:

 http://rubyforge.org/projects/borges/
 http://lakeshore.sourceforge.net/

actually, there are also implementations in Scheme, Common Lisp 
(UnCommonWeb) and Cocoon-FLOW has similar concepts.
 And somewhere (I think on the portland pattern repository) I recall 
reading that Viaweb (aka "the first web app") was written in CPS. Also 
notice that the Wee project in ruby is more advanced that Borges.

I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found 
was Imposter (http://csoki.ki.iif.hu/~vitezg/impostor/) which looks 
like an earlier, partially failed attempt to do what Seaside now seems 
to be delivering.

I think "independent" more than earlier, it seem many people are 
reinventing this from time to time.
Anyway, I just wanted to point out that IIRC something on this lines 
appeared recently in the nevow svn tree, maybe you can take a look.
I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at

   http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web 
continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed 
unduly dismissive. There are some interesting similarities, and though 
my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper 
explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back" 
button is an obnoxious anachronism :-)

regards
 Steve
--
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Python Web Programming  http://pydish.holdenweb.com/
Holden Web LLC  +1 703 861 4237  +1 800 494 3119
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

Mike Thompson  wrote:

> I googled for the python spin-off but didn't find one. Closest I found

Get Nevow with wolf (flow backwards, in the svn sandbox).
http://www.divmod.org/cvs/sandbox/phunt/wolf/?root=Nevow

You will need stackless or greenlet if using CPython.

-- 
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Now Running MacOSX 10.3.7
Blog: http://vvolonghi.blogspot.com
http://weever.berlios.de
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Kendall Clark]

On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:03:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote:

> I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
> presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at
> 
>http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
> 
> An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web 
> continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed 
> unduly dismissive. 

That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
modal/continuation style.

Between this pressure (which isn't new, since as Steve points out, I
was talking about this in Python community last year, and I wasn't
nearly the first) and the growing popularity of Ruby on Rails, there's
some small hint that Ruby is gaining on Python re: non-Java web app
mind share. I think that's a v. important niche for Python and would
like to see us remain strong there (though I've not *done* much about
this, alas).

> There are some interesting similarities, and though 
> my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper 
> explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back" 
> button is an obnoxious anachronism :-)

I'd still like to publish a piece on XML.com about modal web app
style, preferably with a Python example, though Borges would be fine.

Best,
Kendall Clark
XML.com Managing Editor
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Jon Perez]

none wrote:
Does Python really need yet another framework? Apart from the 
intellectual excersise, wouldn't it be nice if Python would get a 
framework "for the rest of us" (meaning: mere mortals) which would focus 
 upon getting work done in a simple manner instead of creating yet 
another, new, hip, exciting, way of creating dynamic websites? If Python 
cannot deliver a PHP clone, at least you would expect a Rails lookalike. 
Spyce (http://spyce.sf.net) would be the superior Python-based PHP clone
you are looking for.
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Jp Calderone]

On Sun, 2 Jan 2005 13:34:02 -0500, Kendall Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:03:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote:
> 
> > I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
> > presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at
> > 
> >http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
> > 
> > An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web 
> > continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed 
> > unduly dismissive. 
> 
> That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
> afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
> or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
> modal/continuation style.

  There is at least one.  I'm sure I could find several, if I looked.
The problem is that there are dozens of "web frameworks" in Python, 
all off in their separate corners ignoring each other for the most 
part, and for the most part being ignored by everyone outside their 
immediate community.

  Maybe PEP 333 will help by making movement between frameworks 
simpler for application developers.  Of course, it may not, since 
it ignores complex things (it certainly comes nowhere close to 
addressing the requirements for a Seaside-alike), and any developer 
who wants to remain portable will not be able to take advantage of 
this technique.

  Jp
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Paul Rubin]

Kendall Clark <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
> afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
> or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
> modal/continuation style.

Since Python doesn't have continuations, that would be a bit tricky.
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone]

Paul Rubin  wrote:

> Since Python doesn't have continuations, that would be a bit tricky.

Since I've already said Nevow with wolf works the same as borges.
The only thing that wouldn't work without continuations is the back
button. With greenlet module (from Armin Rigo) also the back button will
work.

I've also already posted an url to the svn sandbox with a working
example inside.

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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Paul Rubin]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] (Valentino Volonghi aka Dialtone) writes:
> Since I've already said Nevow with wolf works the same as borges.
> The only thing that wouldn't work without continuations is the back
> button. With greenlet module (from Armin Rigo) also the back button will
> work.

Thanks, I'm not familiar with wolf, borges, or greenlet.  I've also
been wondering what Rails is.  

Maybe some configuration of PyPy can supply first-class continuations
like the old Stackless did.  That would be really cool for all sorts
of reasons.

Then again, maybe it's reasonable to just fake it all, using ordinary
threads and queues.  I might try coding something that way.
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Ian Bicking]

Steve Holden wrote:
I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at

   http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web 
continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed 
unduly dismissive. There are some interesting similarities, and though 
my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper 
explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back" 
button is an obnoxious anachronism :-)
I think the technique you talked about is an easier way to achieve a 
similar goal as the continuation-based frameworks.  While using 
continuations for web applications is an interesting idea, I don't think 
it's been shown to be successful.  It's certainly not something I'd want 
to implement on Python (even given the actual features to make it 
possible), and from what I've read of the Ruby projects that use it 
(Borges and Wee?), they aren't ready to implement production 
applications either.  The technique you present could be implemented on 
any framework, right now, with the expectation that it would work in a 
production situation.

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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Ian Bicking]

Kendall Clark wrote:
Between this pressure (which isn't new, since as Steve points out, I
was talking about this in Python community last year, and I wasn't
nearly the first) and the growing popularity of Ruby on Rails, there's
some small hint that Ruby is gaining on Python re: non-Java web app
mind share. I think that's a v. important niche for Python and would
like to see us remain strong there (though I've not *done* much about
this, alas).
I think that's probably true -- at least in terms of mindshare, even 
though that might not reflect on actual work done.  But, Rails is really 
not a very experimental framework, and the existance of 
continuation-based frameworks for Ruby is an aside.  If such frameworks 
happen at all for Python, I think they will be an aside as well.

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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Kendall Clark]

On Mon, Jan 03, 2005 at 01:46:54AM -0600, Ian Bicking wrote:
> Kendall Clark wrote:
> >Between this pressure (which isn't new, since as Steve points out, I
> >was talking about this in Python community last year, and I wasn't
> >nearly the first) and the growing popularity of Ruby on Rails, there's
> >some small hint that Ruby is gaining on Python re: non-Java web app
> >mind share. I think that's a v. important niche for Python and would
> >like to see us remain strong there (though I've not *done* much about
> >this, alas).
> 
> I think that's probably true -- at least in terms of mindshare, even 
> though that might not reflect on actual work done.  But, Rails is really 
> not a very experimental framework, and the existance of 
> continuation-based frameworks for Ruby is an aside.  If such frameworks 
> happen at all for Python, I think they will be an aside as well.

There's no sense whatever in which Rails is "experimental" -- who
suggested such a thing? No, Rails hits a sweet spot, for a class (I
suspect) of simple to mediumly-complex web app. Which is what most web
apps *are*, after all.

I don't begrudge Rails any popularity, I just want us to defend our
turf. Sometimes that means ignoring what the other guy does, but
sometimes it means aping him. I suspect in this case some aping would
be a good thing.

As for continuation-based frameworks, as you point out to Steve,
that's largely an implementation technique and similar results may be
achieved with other techniques (though I, unlike you, did *not* favor
Steve's technique, as I recall). Continuations are certainly not
experimental, nor are continuation-based modal web frameworks. The
latter are *en vogue* and being seen to be *en vogue* is often an
important technological virtue, especially for a perceived market
niche leader. 

Kendall Clark
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Steve Holden]

Ian Bicking wrote:
Steve Holden wrote:
I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at

   http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on 
web continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time 
seemed unduly dismissive. There are some interesting similarities, and 
though my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the 
paper explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the 
"back" button is an obnoxious anachronism :-)

I think the technique you talked about is an easier way to achieve a 
similar goal as the continuation-based frameworks.  While using 
continuations for web applications is an interesting idea, I don't think 
it's been shown to be successful.  It's certainly not something I'd want 
to implement on Python (even given the actual features to make it 
possible), and from what I've read of the Ruby projects that use it 
(Borges and Wee?), they aren't ready to implement production 
applications either.  The technique you present could be implemented on 
any framework, right now, with the expectation that it would work in a 
production situation.

That's true, but there's no denying it's clunky, and there are a few 
problems with it. Despite that, I am still persisting with developemnt, 
albeit slowly due to lack of time, and hope to have something further to 
report.

It's the *ideas* that are important, though, rather than the 
implementation, and my initial hope was to publicise the weakness of 
statelessness on the web as applications become more complex.

regards
 Steve
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Steve Holden]

Kendall Clark wrote:
On Sun, Jan 02, 2005 at 10:03:10AM -0500, Steve Holden wrote:

I did actually do some sort-of-related work in this area, which I 
presented at PyCon DC 2004 - you can access the paper at

  http://www.python.org/pycon/dc2004/papers/18/Setting_A_Context.pdf
An audience member mentioned the Smalltalk and Scheme-based work on web 
continuation frameworks, and I was sorry my answer at the time seemed 
unduly dismissive. 

That was me, actually. I remain surprised that there isn't a move
afoot either to implement something like Seaside or Borges in Python
or to adapt one of the existing web frameworks to be
modal/continuation style.
Ah, glad to make your acquaintance again - I lost your email address in 
a disk crash shortly after PyCon DC 2004.

[...]
There are some interesting similarities, and though 
my own implementation is decidedly clunky I like to think the paper 
explains some of the advantages of maintaining state and why the "back" 
button is an obnoxious anachronism :-)

I'd still like to publish a piece on XML.com about modal web app
style, preferably with a Python example, though Borges would be fine.
Would an adaptation of the PyCon paper be any use in this context?
regards
 Steve
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[Mike Meyer]

Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:

> It's the *ideas* that are important, though, rather than the
> implementation, and my initial hope was to publicise the weakness of
> statelessness on the web as applications become more complex.

This needed publicity? Isn't it obvious to anyone who has ever
written a non-trival web application? Enough so that people started
referring to non-web applications as "stately" rather than "stateful".

   http://www.mired.org/home/mwm/
Independent WWW/Perforce/FreeBSD/Unix consultant, email for more information.
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Re: Continuations Based Web Framework - Seaside.

[floydophone]

Hi... I'm Peter Hunt. I've implemented stuff like this for a variety of
different frameworks. I authored nevow.wolf and the more recent
CherryFlow (http://trac.cherrypy.org/cgi-bin/trac.cgi/wiki/CherryFlow).
I came up with this idea after looking at Cocoon FlowScript examples.
Python generators suit continuation-based web development very nicely.
If you take a look at CherryFlow version 1, the core of it is just
about 15 lines.

I'm constantly updating CherryFlow. I'll keep you posted.

Also, if anyone wants to assist me with Subway, my Ruby-on-Rails clone,
let me know :)

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How many web framework for python ?

[Bo Yang]

Hello everybody ,
I am a student major in software engeering .
I need to do something for my course .

There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
Is there one for python ?
I want to write a web framework for python based on
mod_python as my course homework , could you give some
advise ?
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PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[RobJ]

Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
(http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
gladly appreciated.  

Thanks

Rob J

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What is your favorite Python web framework?

[Admin]

I am doing some research for a Python framework to build web applications.
I have discarted Zope because from what I've read, the learning curve is  
too steep, and it takes more time to build applications in general with  
Zope.
I have kept the following:

  - PyWork - http://pywork.sourceforge.net (Not sure if it's mature)
  - Django - http://www.djangoproject.com (Looks interesting)
  - CherryPy - http://www.cherrypy.org (Unsure)

I have also found a more comprehensive list here:  
http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming
But I'd like to know your opinion on what you think is best. The Python  
framework I'll use will be to build an e-commerce application looking like  
Amazon.com
I favor speed of development, intensive OO development, performance under  
heavy load, short learning curve, good documentation and community.

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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Rene Pijlman]

Bo Yang:
>There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
>Is there one for python ?

Yes.
http://wiki.python.org/moin/WebProgramming

>I want to write a web framework for python based on
>mod_python as my course homework , could you give some
>advise ?

Write Zope3.

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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Ville Vainio]

Bo Yang wrote:

> There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
> Is there one for python ?

There are many good ones.

> I want to write a web framework for python based on
> mod_python as my course homework , could you give some
> advise ?

Implement yet another web framework? It needs to be made harder so
people can stop doing it all the time. ;-)

You might want to watch the 20 min turbogears video for a laid back
approach of familiarizing yourself with a python web framework:

http://www.turbogears.org/docs/wiki20/20MinuteWiki.mov

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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Bo Yang]

Thank you very much !
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Bruno Desthuilliers]

Bo Yang a écrit :
> Hello everybody ,
> I am a student major in software engeering .
> I need to do something for my course .
> 
> There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
> Is there one for python ?

In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.

> I want to write a web framework for python based on
> mod_python as my course homework , could you give some
> advise ?

Yes : forget it.
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Sybren Stuvel]

Bruno Desthuilliers enlightened us with:
>> I want to write a web framework for python based on mod_python as
>> my course homework , could you give some advise ?
>
> Yes : forget it.

Why forget it? I've written my own web framework
(http://www.unrealtower.org/) and it works great! It was a good
learning experience in using mod_python. Besides that, I found the
existing frameworks not quite suitable to my taste, and I like my own
much more.

Please, feel free to take a look at it, and let me know what you think
;-)

Sybren
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capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Alex Martelli]

Bruno Desthuilliers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
   ...
> > There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
> > Is there one for python ?
> 
> In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.

Dear Mr. BDFL,

there are too many good web frameworks nowadays. Please eliminate three.

PS: I am *not* a crackpot!


Alex
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Ville Vainio]

Sybren Stuvel wrote:

> Why forget it? I've written my own web framework
> (http://www.unrealtower.org/) and it works great! It was a good

Some reasons:

- Waste. When you write your own framework, you are helping yourself.
If you use an existing framework and possibly contribute patches to it,
you help other people too.

- Other people have already solved your problems, also problems that
you can't think of yet.

- Not reusing code is just plain evil.

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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Sybren Stuvel]

Ville Vainio enlightened us with:
> When you write your own framework, you are helping yourself.

True. And if that doesn't have a negative effect on others (which I
think it doesn't) there is nothing wrong with that.

> If you use an existing framework and possibly contribute patches to
> it, you help other people too.

Also true, but there is more to it. If I can create my own framework,
get more experienced, and be able to spare time in the long run
because I can quickly implement features I want, it makes me a more
efficient and experienced person. That leaves me more useful when
helping people, and gives me more time to help them too.

> - Other people have already solved your problems

I have no problems. My web framework is working just as I want it to.

> also problems that you can't think of yet.

What problems didn't I think of yet?

> - Not reusing code is just plain evil.

I'm using mod_python, Cheetah, SQLObject and PostgreSQL. I publish all
my own code under an Open Source license so other people can learn
from and contribute to it. How am I not reusing code?

Sybren
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safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Harald Armin Massa]

Bruno,

>In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.

I tended to share that opinion, just because there are more web
frameworks then keywords in Python. But we should stop thinking of this
as a bug; it is a feature.

Because everyone and his girlfriend creates an own web framework for
Python, we have a clear security advantage over other languages. One
"ruby on rails" worm will bring down at least 2000 web 2.0 beta sites.
A worm for a Python web framework will be incompatible with all others.

Harald

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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[bruno at modulix]

Alex Martelli wrote:
> Bruno Desthuilliers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>...
> 
>>>There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
>>>Is there one for python ?
>>
>>In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.
> 
> 
> Dear Mr. BDFL,
> 
> there are too many good web frameworks nowadays. Please eliminate three.
> 

Seems like I should have added a smiley somewhere...

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p in '[EMAIL PROTECTED]'.split('@')])"
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Alex Martelli]

bruno at modulix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Alex Martelli wrote:
> > Bruno Desthuilliers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >...
> >>>There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
> >>>Is there one for python ?
> >>
> >>In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.
> > 
> > Dear Mr. BDFL,
> > 
> > there are too many good web frameworks nowadays. Please eliminate three.
> 
> Seems like I should have added a smiley somewhere...

Naah, smileys unneeded -- you'll notice that my "I am not a crackpot"
comment was unsmilied either (and nobody nominated it for QOTW, darn!).
Having just coincidentally finished wrapping up the 2nd edition's
Nutshell first draft of the chapter on serverside web programming, after
a long time researching all the alternatives I've given up on even
MENTIONING all of the frameworks available, much less providing any
in-depth coverage, so I'm quite sensitized to the situation!-)


Alex
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[Steve Holden]

Alex Martelli wrote:
> bruno at modulix <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
> 
>>Alex Martelli wrote:
>>
>>>Bruno Desthuilliers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>>   ...
>>>
>>>>>There are very good web framework for java and ruby ,
>>>>>Is there one for python ?
>>>>
>>>>In fact, there are actually too much *good* python web frameworks.
>>>
>>>Dear Mr. BDFL,
>>>
>>>there are too many good web frameworks nowadays. Please eliminate three.
>>
>>Seems like I should have added a smiley somewhere...
> 
> 
> Naah, smileys unneeded -- you'll notice that my "I am not a crackpot"
> comment was unsmilied either (and nobody nominated it for QOTW, darn!).

Naughty! That's like trying to end a thread by saying "Hitler".

> Having just coincidentally finished wrapping up the 2nd edition's
> Nutshell first draft of the chapter on serverside web programming, after
> a long time researching all the alternatives I've given up on even
> MENTIONING all of the frameworks available, much less providing any
> in-depth coverage, so I'm quite sensitized to the situation!-)
> 
Damn. More reading ...

regards
  Steve
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Re: How many web framework for python ?

[robin]

Steve Holden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>Damn. More reading ...

Even more reading as of tomorrow, when I get my Web Application
Framework article up on my blog.

Even listing the vast number of frameworks & toolkits out there is
daunting, so I figured I may as well share my own outlook.

And FWIW, I have abandoned my own contribution, so that's one less out
in the wild!

-
robin
noisetheatre.blogspot.com
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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[Steve Holden]

RobJ wrote:
> Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
> Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
> Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
> Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
> Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
> people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
> assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
> project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
> learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
> http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
> blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
> (http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
> a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
> and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
> any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
> gladly appreciated.  
> 
Q2 should not be a radio button, since you ask submitters to "check all 
that apply".

regards
  Steve
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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[James Stroud]

RobJ wrote:
> Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
> Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
> Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
> Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
> Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
> people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
> assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
> project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
> learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
> http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
> blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
> (http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
> a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
> and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
> any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
> gladly appreciated.  
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Rob J
> 
Q9 should be "check all that apply" or otherwise qualified with "primarily".

Q10 is missing other types of broadband such as what one might find at 
school, and also have the option of multiple selections.
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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[RobJ]

Thanks James and Steve for the feedback I have made the appropriate
changes and republished the survey at the following URL:

http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=490

Rob J



James Stroud wrote:
> RobJ wrote:
> > Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
> > Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
> > Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
> > Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
> > Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
> > people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
> > assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
> > project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
> > learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
> > http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
> > blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
> > (http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
> > a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
> > and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
> > any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
> > gladly appreciated.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Rob J
> >
> Q9 should be "check all that apply" or otherwise qualified with "primarily".
>
> Q10 is missing other types of broadband such as what one might find at
> school, and also have the option of multiple selections.

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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[Fuzzyman]

RobJ wrote:
> Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
> Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
> Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
> Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
> Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
> people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
> assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
> project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
> learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
> http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
> blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
> (http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
> a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
> and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
> any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
> gladly appreciated.
>

This is a good idea. Good luck.

I hope you make the results of the survey public.

Fuzzyman
http://www.voidspace.org.uk/python/index.shtml
> Thanks
> 
> Rob J

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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[czhang . cmu]

Interesting idea. Just realized that I am the first person who took the
republished survey. :-)
I suggest that you also post this message to various Python web
framework's m-list.

RobJ 写道：

> Thanks James and Steve for the feedback I have made the appropriate
> changes and republished the survey at the following URL:
>
> http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=490

－Cheng Zhang
Gentoo/Python/Django Powered
http://www.ifaxian.com
1st Django powered site in Chinese ;-)
http://www.aiyo.cn
Our 2nd Django powered site in Chinese

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Re: PySchool - Online Python Web Framework Workshop.

[Ramon Diaz-Uriarte]

Dear Rob,

On 4 Nov 2006 06:43:19 -0800, RobJ <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Thanks James and Steve for the feedback I have made the appropriate
> changes and republished the survey at the following URL:
>
> http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=490
>


Thanks for the update. However, a whole bunch of Linux distributions
are missing. For instance, I think that both Debian and Gentoo have a
large enough user base to deserve an explicit place in that list. And
I'd definitely add a way to list your very own distro, if not among
the listed, like you do in q. 3.

Best,

R.

> Rob J
>
>
>
> James Stroud wrote:
> > RobJ wrote:
> > > Hi! My Name is Rob Johnson and I am a graduate student at The Richard
> > > Stockton College of NJ. To make a long story short, I'm working on my
> > > Masters project in the MAIT program (Masters of Arts in Instructional
> > > Technology). I have written a proposal to put together a free on-line
> > > Python web framework workshop. The workshop will be geared to help
> > > people new to Python web frameworks. I am asking for the community's
> > > assistance to help me get this project off the ground. As part of my
> > > project, I am conducting a survey for people who are interested in
> > > learning more about python web frameworks.  The survey is located at
> > > http://killersurvey.com/answer_survey.php?id=479. I have also started a
> > > blog about this experience in order to let people know what I'm doing
> > > (http://pyschool.blogspot.com/). If you have a few minutes, please take
> > > a couple of minutes to take the quick survey. The survey is anonymous
> > > and the information will be used for statistics for my project. Also,
> > > any constructive feedback or suggestions that you can give me would be
> > > gladly appreciated.
> > >
> > > Thanks
> > >
> > > Rob J
> > >
> > Q9 should be "check all that apply" or otherwise qualified with "primarily".
> >
> > Q10 is missing other types of broadband such as what one might find at
> > school, and also have the option of multiple selections.
>
> --
> http://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list
>


-- 
Ramon Diaz-Uriarte
Statistical Computing Team
Structural Biology and Biocomputing Programme
Spanish National Cancer Centre (CNIO)
http://ligarto.org/rdiaz
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Re: What is your favorite Python web framework?

[Sybren Stuvel]

Admin enlightened us with:
> But I'd like to know your opinion on what you think is best. The
> Python  framework I'll use will be to build an e-commerce
> application looking like  Amazon.com

I'm greatly in favour of Cheetah. Also see
http://www.unrealtower.org/mycheetah. I need to put up way more
documentation & examples, but the basics are there.

Let me know what you think!

Sybren
-- 
The problem with the world is stupidity. Not saying there should be a
capital punishment for stupidity, but why don't we just take the
safety labels off of everything and let the problem solve itself? 
 Frank Zappa
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Re: What is your favorite Python web framework?

[Admin]

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:15:49 -0300, Sybren Stuvel  
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> http://www.unrealtower.org/mycheetah

"Error 404 while looking up your page AND when looking for a suitable 
404  
page. Sorry!
No such file /var/www/www.unrealtower.org/compiled/error404.py"

I can't express myself on Cheetah, sorry!!

-- 
Thanks,

Admin.
Want to buy me a book? http://tinyurl.com/78xzb :)
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Re: What is your favorite Python web framework?

[Luis M. Gonzalez]

I really like Karrigell ( http://karrigell.sourceforge.net ).
It is, IMHO, the most pythonic framework because all you need to know
is the python language.
You don't need to learn any template or special language, you only use
plain and regular python.
It also gives you a lot of freedom when choosing a programming style:
you can code python inside html (just like in PHP or ASP) or you can
code html within python.

It also lets you map databases to objects and you can use the included
database Gadfly or any other that has a python api.
The downside: it currectly works with its built-in server, and although
you can use it alongside Apache or Xitami, there's still no way to do
it with mod_python, and as far as I know, there's no hosting providers
with Karrigell instaled.
It is being used mainly by people who run their websites from their own
computers.

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Re: What is your favorite Python web framework?

[Philippe C. Martin]

http://cheetahtemplate.org/



Admin wrote:

> On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 19:15:49 -0300, Sybren Stuvel
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> 
>> http://www.unrealtower.org/mycheetah
> 
> "Error 404 while looking up your page AND when looking for a suitable 404
> page. Sorry!
> No such file /var/www/www.unrealtower.org/compiled/error404.py"
> 
> I can't express myself on Cheetah, sorry!!
> 

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Re: What is your favorite Python web framework?

[laurent]

hello,
I follow somes projects that have a pythonic way to make web site.
there's thats projects :
   http://www.cherrypy.org/
and
   http://subway.python-hosting.com/
subway aim to be like ruby on rails frameworks , simple and fast
developpment. It uses cherrypy and other project like :
 * http://www.cheetahtemplate.org/
 * http://www.formencode.org/
 * http://www.sqlobject.org/

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