RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Ian . Pine]

Thanks for all the information that's been posted in response to mine 
and others' questions on this subject.  I've certainly learned a lot 
that I never knew before.

Even though soldering all those wires onto veroboard is so tedious, 
especially when trying to pick up where you left of if you can't 
complete the job in one session (I usually write a list of connections 
to tick off as I do them, but invariably get engrossed and do a whole 
bunch without ticking them off), it's probably the easiest way with 
just primitive gear - as long as they keep making ICs in DIL packages...

I'm largely ignorant of the analogue side of circuit design - induction 
effects (which I hadn't even considered until I read it here), input & 
output capacitance (info you see in the DC Characteristics tables of 
the datasheets).  I'm surprised my spaghetti-heaps of wires and ICs 
work at all as I just connect up the logic and leave the rest to luck 
(I do remember to use decoupling capacitors though).

I like Peter's idea of a tutorial on building Q40 add-ons.  I'd like it 
to be in QL Today though  :o)

Ian.

P.S.  I've been getting more and more disappointed with Maplin, who 
have been steadily discontinuing their lines of older ICs.  They now 
only supply microcontrollers, a very limited range of SRAM up to 128k x 
8 and the range of crystals and crystal oscillators is seriously 
depleted.
RS Components (www.rswww.com) still carries a broad range including 
many of the old 8 bit MPUs and peripheral chips, sourced from OKI. 



 

> -Original Message-
> From: tony 
> Sent: 11 January 2002 18:31
> To: ql-users
> Cc: tony
> Subject: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)
> 
> 
> On  Fri, 11 Jan 2002 at 12:44:08,   wrote:
> (ref: <Hb5f11cf080d.1010753047.ln4p1327.ldn.swissbank.com@MHS>)
> 
> >What equipment do you use to apply the etch-resist pattern to the
> >boards, etch them, and then bond them together?
> >
> >Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for
> >experiments & prototypes? (Probably nothing as complicated as a Q40
> >board.) In comparison to, say, the cost of digital photography with
> >film scanner, A3 printer, software, consumables?
> >
> >(Probably another stupid question from an ignoramus)
> I didn't - this was done outside.  One simply sends them plotter files
> etc and they do it all from that.
> 
> My one offs are breadboards.  The sH was a sight to behold, but worked
> incredibly well.
> 
> I know Stuart Honeyball produced some commercial boards but printing
> direct onto special film.
> 
> How?  He didn't have a laser printer at the time and I did 
> them for him
> (8-)#
> 
> It apparently worked very well, but there is loss of quality. 
>  No chance
> of .5mm romdisq type pitches by this method.
> 
> -- 
>QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk
> Voice: +44(0)1442-828254  Fax: +44(0)1442-828255
>   TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
> 


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Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Malcolm Cadman]

In article <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, Peter Graf
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes
>Hi Ian,
>
>>Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for 
>>experiments & prototypes?
>
>Having one 2-layer board (in the size of a Q40 IO card) should cost about
>EUR 60 here. So a hobbyist with CAD software might find it useful to save
>the time he needs for wiring, and have himself a professional looking board.
>
>If I had more time, I would like to write a little tutorial on how to make
>your own Q40 extensions for QUANTA magazine.

That would be interesting ... the revival of hardware projects.

-- 
Malcolm Cadman

RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Peter Graf]

Hi Ian,

>Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for 
>experiments & prototypes?

Having one 2-layer board (in the size of a Q40 IO card) should cost about
EUR 60 here. So a hobbyist with CAD software might find it useful to save
the time he needs for wiring, and have himself a professional looking board.

If I had more time, I would like to write a little tutorial on how to make
your own Q40 extensions for QUANTA magazine.

Peter

Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Malcolm Cadman]

In article ,
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes
>What equipment do you use to apply the etch-resist pattern to the 
>boards, etch them, and then bond them together?
>
>Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for 
>experiments & prototypes? (Probably nothing as complicated as a Q40 
>board.) In comparison to, say, the cost of digital photography with 
>film scanner, A3 printer, software, consumables?
>
>(Probably another stupid question from an ignoramus)

If you are interested in developing electronic skills with 'one-offs'
you do not need to go to the bother of using PCB's ( Printed Circuit
Boards - named after a screenprinting technique used ).

There are several 'prototyping' systems, like 'breadboard' and
'veroboard' where you place the components and connecting wires in
place, or solder the links for a permanent connection.  You can make
very sophisticated designs this way, but each one is manually assembled
as you do it.

Visit places like Maplins are see what is available.  There are a lot of
catalogue companies, like Radio Spares, Rapid, etc to order components
from.

Another way is to use a of line copper tape that you just lay on to a
suitable surface ( even cardboard ) to link up the circuit design.

It is worth 'PCB' when you wish to have more than one.  For basic design
work you can use any CAD style software to layout the circuit.  Invent
your own component 'library' or use an existing one, and alot of work
can be done for very little extra outlay ( as you most likely already
have the software ).

With circuit design software you can get many freeware or shareware
programs that will do a lot.  Commercially you pay for the ability and
sophistication of the program - which does not accord with ease of use.

-- 
Malcolm Cadman

RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[ZN]

On 1/11/02 at 6:26 PM Dexter wrote:

>> For fine geometry boards 600DPI is a must and you have to experiment
>> because passing the papaer through the printer changes the dimensions.

>The solution to this is to leave the paper out after printing, so it can
>re-absorb moisture and return to its previous size. Some plastics do this
>too.

Unfortunately, it's still different in the way the paper goes through the
printer. The rollers compress the paper somewhet which makes the X and Y
directions always end up being different - and it tracks quite well across
printers, copiers, etc. Some printers also have geometry problems due to
imperfect optics. I've even gone so far to print boards at 45 deg angle to
reduce cumulative errors by SQRT(2) :-)

Nasta

Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[ZN]

On 1/11/02 at 6:59 PM Dexter wrote:

>> I know Stuart Honeyball produced some commercial boards but printing
>> direct onto special film.
>> It apparently worked very well, but there is loss of quality.  No chance
>> of .5mm romdisq type pitches by this method.

>The loss of quality is because you need to reverse the image in the X and
>Y planes.

Actually, you need to this even on large geometry PCBs because the etch
quality is better. Ultimately, there is difraction along the edges in the
photo resist itself, which is the biggest limit to the track width.

However, there is a method that uses transfer paper and actually transfers
the toner directly onto the copper, usually it involves an iron. This would
be much better if one could have a hot roller, for instance out of an old
photocopier. Unfortunately, it is the uniformity of toner deposition,
entirely a matter of the printer used, that limits the quality achieved
with this method.

Nasta

Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Dexter]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, Tony Firshman wrote:

> I know Stuart Honeyball produced some commercial boards but printing
> direct onto special film.
>
> How?  He didn't have a laser printer at the time and I did them for him
> (8-)#
>
> It apparently worked very well, but there is loss of quality.  No chance
> of .5mm romdisq type pitches by this method.


The loss of quality is because you need to reverse the image in the X and
Y planes.

(fixed pitch font required here)


  __

Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Tony Firshman]

On  Fri, 11 Jan 2002 at 12:44:08,   wrote:
(ref: )

>What equipment do you use to apply the etch-resist pattern to the
>boards, etch them, and then bond them together?
>
>Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for
>experiments & prototypes? (Probably nothing as complicated as a Q40
>board.) In comparison to, say, the cost of digital photography with
>film scanner, A3 printer, software, consumables?
>
>(Probably another stupid question from an ignoramus)
I didn't - this was done outside.  One simply sends them plotter files
etc and they do it all from that.

My one offs are breadboards.  The sH was a sight to behold, but worked
incredibly well.

I know Stuart Honeyball produced some commercial boards but printing
direct onto special film.

How?  He didn't have a laser printer at the time and I did them for him
(8-)#

It apparently worked very well, but there is loss of quality.  No chance
of .5mm romdisq type pitches by this method.

-- 
   QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk
Voice: +44(0)1442-828254  Fax: +44(0)1442-828255
  TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG

RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Dexter]

On Fri, 11 Jan 2002, ZN wrote:

> geometry boards 600DPI is a must and you have to experiment because passing
> the papaer through the printer changes the dimensions. Fortunately, most

The solution to this is to leave the paper out after printing, so it can
re-absorb moisture and return to its previous size. Some plastics do this
too.

Dave

RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[ZN]

On 1/11/02 at 12:44 PM [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

>What equipment do you use to apply the etch-resist pattern to the 
>boards, etch them, and then bond them together?
>Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for 
>experiments & prototypes?

The real problem is the thru-hole plating, the chemistry is 'interesting'
not to mention expensive. Apart from that, single or two layer non-plated
can be made quite cheaply and VERY precisely.
I used to do that a lot - and would still be doing it if only I could find
a source of highly concentrated hydrogen perxide and not immediately be
branded suspicios with terrorist overtones.
You can get blank boards that have the photo-resist pre-applied. Film can
be produced using drafting transparency and a laser printer. For very fine
geometry boards 600DPI is a must and you have to experiment because passing
the papaer through the printer changes the dimensions. Fortunately, most
PCB design programs have the capability to enter correction factors. I have
done hundreds of boards this way, some with tracks and spacings down to
8/1000" - more than good enough for even the smallest SMD components.
Laminating could be a problem, but it is not insurmountable, especially for
small boards. It is DIRTY though :-(

Nasta

RE: Re: [ql-users] Making PCBs (was Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card)

[Ian . Pine]

What equipment do you use to apply the etch-resist pattern to the 
boards, etch them, and then bond them together?

Is it all very expensive for a hobbyist to produce one-off boards for 
experiments & prototypes? (Probably nothing as complicated as a Q40 
board.) In comparison to, say, the cost of digital photography with 
film scanner, A3 printer, software, consumables?

(Probably another stupid question from an ignoramus)

Ian.

> -Original Message-
> From: tony 
> Sent: 11 January 2002 12:23
> To: ql-users
> Cc: tony
> Subject: Re: [ql-users] Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card
> 
> 
> 
> 
> >> -Original Message-
> >> From: Norman.Dunbar
> >> Sent: 11 January 2002 11:29
> >> To: ql-users
> >> Cc: Norman.Dunbar
> >> Subject: RE: [ql-users] Q40/Q60/??? Ultra IO card
> >>
> >>
> >> Silly question from a hardware ignoramus :
> >>
> >> what is a 6 layer (or 4 layer) board ?
> >> I suspect it is to do with the track layour, but all the
> >> boards I ever used
> >> were 'double sided' = 2 layer ???
> 
> Yes.
> Nasta will give the definitive reply of course - on one screen please.
> Last time I said this to Nasta, he said he was working on an 1800 x
> something screen - (8-)#
> 
> I did my first 4 layer with Mplane, mainly for an inner 'ground plane'
> and a power layer - ie only etch away around vias (layer connections)
> and holes.  Often the ground plane is there simply to reduce 
> noise, but
> it makes it easy to provide the necessary higher current capacity and
> avoid voltage drops etc.
> 
> However I found I needed to use the +5V layer for some signal lines as
> there was simply no room on outer layers.
> 
> If a lot of signal layers are internal it nicely hides the pcb design
> from hackers (8-)#  It makes design debugging (at pcb design 
> stage) far
> more difficult.  Until we get _real_ 3D monitors, separation is by
> colour only - not easy.
> A hologram screen would be very nice.
> 
> -- 
>QBBS (QL fido BBS 2:257/67) +44(0)1442-828255
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.firshman.demon.co.uk
> Voice: +44(0)1442-828254  Fax: +44(0)1442-828255
>   TF Services, 29 Longfield Road, TRING, Herts, HP23 4DG
> 


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