Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix - Really SPF checking

[Jake Vickers]

Jake Vickers wrote:


Not my recommendation - that's what he has in his DNS records right 
now. I was pointing out that it limited emails to a single IP.  I just 
wasn't as elaborate in my explanation as you were Dan.  Could you 
maybe make a wiki entry explaining it for newcomers?


Hey Dan - just saw the SPF entry on the wiki. Thanks!  Very detailed!

Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix - Really SPF checking

[Jake Vickers]

Dan McAllister wrote:
Just to throw my 2-cents worth in here... but I think (e.g.: my 
opinion) that Jake's SPF record recommendation is too restrictive. The 
A record for your domain very likely may not be the same server as 
your mail server (in other words, your main web server -- usually the 
A record for your domain -- may not be your mail server too...)




Not my recommendation - that's what he has in his DNS records right now. 
I was pointing out that it limited emails to a single IP.  I just wasn't 
as elaborate in my explanation as you were Dan.  Could you maybe make a 
wiki entry explaining it for newcomers?


His DNS records also do not match - they may be serving the same zone 
information, but they're returning different serial numbers:


67.212.79.216: 1227669377
67.212.79.217: 1227667882


Which normally in the DNS world means that .217 has not updated the zone 
info from .216 yet.

Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix - Really SPF checking

[Dan McAllister]

Just to throw my 2-cents worth in here... but I think (e.g.: my opinion) 
that Jake's SPF record recommendation is too restrictive. The A record 
for your domain very likely may not be the same server as your mail 
server (in other words, your main web server -- usually the A record for 
your domain -- may not be your mail server too...)


My "preferred" SPF entry would, therefore, include an MX enrtry to add 
ALL of the MX records from your domain:

"v=spf1 a mx -all"

As for having all those "extra" SPF records, there apparently needs to 
be some explanation of how SPF works... to make it as simple as 
possible, let's just look at the processing of an SPF check:

- I get mail from [EMAIL PROTECTED]   (a FAKE e-mail address, to be sure!)
- I do a DNS TXT lookup for the domain -- effectively, a "dig txt 
qmt.com", or more up-to-date, "dig spf qmt.com"

- I look up the SPF records there (and see "v=spf1 a mx -all")
- I look up the A record & MX record(s) of the domain (dig a qmt.com & 
dig mx qmt.com)
- I compare the IP address SENDING the message against the IP addresses 
discovered above

- If there is a match, you PASS SPF checking
- If there is NO match, you FAIL SPF checking & I block you (the -all)

So, you really only need the SPF record for the DOMAINs you send/receive 
mail with... and the extra TXT records for mail*.solowtech.com & 
http*.solowtech.com won't actually affect anything for the domain 
solowtech.com (which is, presumably, the domain of your emails).


Thus, although you dismiss your first SPF entry as being "just your web 
host", the fact that IT includes both A and MX entries is why your SPF 
is working!


Now, if you have other hosts that may send e-mail on behalf of your 
domain, but are NOT also mail servers (like a backup server, or 
alternate web server that want to send logs or alerts), then you just 
add those servers to your ONE SPF record... like this:

 "v=spf1 a mx ip4:71.21.142.30 -all"

Now, SPF checking mail servers will accept messages from the 
solowtech.com domain so long as they come from:

- The A record for solowtech.com (67.212.79.197)
- Any of the MX records for solowtech.com (only 67.212.79.220 currently)
- The IP Address of 71.21.142.30 (the ip4 option)

SO... since this is the holiday season, I'll do most of the work for you 
and say that:
1) you should probably have a backup mail server (you currently have 
only the 1 MX record, you should have more)
2) If all of the hosts in your posting below are supposed to be valid 
sources of email, and

   'mail.solowtech.com resolves to 67.212.79.198
   'mail2.solowtech.com resolves to 67.212.79.198 too
   'mail17.solowtech.com resolves to 67.212.79.220
   'mail21.solowtech.com resolves to 67.212.79.221
   'http2.solowtech.com resolves to 67.212.79.198 too
   THEN, your SPF record may need to look like:
 "v=spf1 a mx ip4:67.212.79.198 ip4:67.212.79.221 -all"
   HOWEVER, since 197 (a) & 220(mx) are already there, you COULD get 
fancy and use the prefix option and get the same using

   "v=spf1 a/30 mx/31 -all"
   which equates to your A record with a 30-bit prefix -- effectively, 
67.212.79.196-199...

   plus your MX record with a 31-bit prefix (67.212.79.220-221)
   You  MIGHT want to use the REAL netmasks that you might control... e.g.:
   "v=spf1 a/19 -all"
   which would equate to 67.212.79.192-223

Sigh SO MANY possibilities!

I hope this helps!

Dan
IT4SOHO

"We make IT work for small business!"

Paul Heard wrote:

Hi Jake,

Thanks for your extra effort. You are the best.

I test my DK using [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Its crazy how many different test emails will give 
Back different results.


This address works for me, and yahoo is accepting My DK.

Your point about spf is interesting.

My spf records check out in several tests,
But you are correct in your observation that
The A record and MX box will not resolve to the 
Same IP.


I think my spf records for this domain may be wrong.

'solowtech.com:v=spf1 a mx -all:3600
'mail.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail2.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail17.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail21.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'http2.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600

The first entry is just for a web host.
Rarely sends mail.

The other entries are all running qmail of some form.

My DNS servers serve the same data file.

I hear what you are saying about the 12 hours,
24-48 hours, but I wish I could say that's been
My experience.

I have been working on this for over a month.
Forms, phone calls, DK, SPF...

The cron queue flush was out of desperation.

Having said that, I've been running it now
For a day, the yahoo mail is going through...

Fire and gasoline... 


Thanks Jake.

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EM

RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Paul Heard]

Hi Jake,

Thanks for your extra effort. You are the best.

I test my DK using [EMAIL PROTECTED]

Its crazy how many different test emails will give 
Back different results.

This address works for me, and yahoo is accepting My DK.

Your point about spf is interesting.

My spf records check out in several tests,
But you are correct in your observation that
The A record and MX box will not resolve to the 
Same IP.

I think my spf records for this domain may be wrong.

'solowtech.com:v=spf1 a mx -all:3600
'mail.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail2.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail17.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'mail21.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600
'http2.solowtech.com:v=spf1 a -all:3600

The first entry is just for a web host.
Rarely sends mail.

The other entries are all running qmail of some form.

My DNS servers serve the same data file.

I hear what you are saying about the 12 hours,
24-48 hours, but I wish I could say that's been
My experience.

I have been working on this for over a month.
Forms, phone calls, DK, SPF...

The cron queue flush was out of desperation.

Having said that, I've been running it now
For a day, the yahoo mail is going through...

Fire and gasoline... 

Thanks Jake.

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 7:19 AM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
> Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
> I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
> They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
> I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...
>   

Just doing some checks on your email's domain (solowtech.com, assuming 
that's the domain that cannot send to Yahoo).
Your DNS servers have different serial values, so you probably have 2 
different zone records, one on each server.
For your SPF records, you have this:

"v=spf1 a -all"


That says that the A record for your domain is the one that sends mail.  
That's fine if example.com and mail.example.com resolve top the same IP, 
but incorrect if they do not (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that - 
rusty on my SPF).

Your messages seem to be signed with domain keys, but I would also 
double check them against a server that tests domainkeys for you. Just 
do a search, there's several that will do this for you.  If each of your 
DNS servers is serving different data, then you may have domainkeys on 
one zone record, but not on the other.  Yahoo may be checking the 
keyfile against the wrong DNS server (the one that may not have the data).


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RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[David Sánchez Martín]

Hi,

   AFAIK, if this is not modified by a patch (which i really don't know),
the queue retry schedule is not configurable and it's quadratic.

   It tries to send the message less and less often until it reaches
queuelifetime, then it's tried to be delivered again and generates a bounce
if this delivery attempt fails.

   The retry schedule is explained here:

   http://www.lifewithqmail.org/lwq.html#retry-schedule

   For example, for my 1-day queuelifetime (86400) qmail, it will try 16
(when message arrives, @6 minutes, @26 minutes, etc etc) times until it
gives up.

   I really don't know what does a HUP on qmail-send (that qmailsend
doqueue), but i think it tries to deliver all the messages in the queue now.
Not sure.

Best regards list,

---
David Sanchez Martin
Administrador de Sistemas
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
GPG Key ID: 0x37E7AC1F

E2000 Nuevas Tecnologías
Tel : +34 902 830500



-Mensaje original-
De: Paul Heard [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Enviado el: miércoles, 26 de noviembre de 2008 2:01
Para: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Asunto: RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Hi Jake,

Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...

I have filled out the postmaster forms at yahoo at least a half dozen times,
Still no help on their end.

The link in the smtp message is to the typical;

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html

which resolves to

http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/postmaster-22.html

Yahoo is a clown show...

I am not sending any bulk mailings,
Purely 1-1 correspondence for my clients.

It's ridiculous.

-- 
Sincerely,

Paul Heard

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:43 PM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:
> Thanks Jake, you rule.
>
> My SPF records checkout, I have been manually running doqueue just to
clear
> get the mail delivered.
>
> I have no problems with AOL.
>
> I will try the yahoo account method thanks!
>
> I am getting the typical 421 deferred message over and over again.
>
> Eventually the messages go through if I continue to flush the queue,
> But if I leave it alone a lot of them time out the next day and I get the
> NDR from my box.
>
>   

That's strange. Qmail will attempt to redeliver the message every 5 
minutes until queuelifetime is met, so it should eventually make it out.
I am just warning you that Yahoo may treat your behavior like AOL 
would.  Yahoo also has a guilty-until-proven-innocent policy on email.
In there deferred messages there should be a link in there that explains 
why you were deferred. Hopefully!


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smime.p7s
Description: S/MIME cryptographic signature

Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Eric Shubert]

Nice tip, Chris. Care to add it to the wiki?

Chris Hillman wrote:

Any time I make changes to SPF, I test by sending email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It's really handy, and replies quickly with SPF, Sender ID, Domain Keys
test results. Also runs the message through SpamAssassin and lets you
know what rules fire.

-Chris

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:19 AM

To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:

Hi Jake,

Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...
  


Just doing some checks on your email's domain (solowtech.com, assuming 
that's the domain that cannot send to Yahoo).
Your DNS servers have different serial values, so you probably have 2 
different zone records, one on each server.

For your SPF records, you have this:

"v=spf1 a -all"


That says that the A record for your domain is the one that sends mail.

That's fine if example.com and mail.example.com resolve top the same IP,

but incorrect if they do not (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that - 
rusty on my SPF).


Your messages seem to be signed with domain keys, but I would also 
double check them against a server that tests domainkeys for you. Just 
do a search, there's several that will do this for you.  If each of your


DNS servers is serving different data, then you may have domainkeys on 
one zone record, but not on the other.  Yahoo may be checking the 
keyfile against the wrong DNS server (the one that may not have the

data).


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--
-Eric 'shubes'


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RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Chris Hillman]

Any time I make changes to SPF, I test by sending email to
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

It's really handy, and replies quickly with SPF, Sender ID, Domain Keys
test results. Also runs the message through SpamAssassin and lets you
know what rules fire.

-Chris

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2008 5:19 AM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:
> Hi Jake,
>
> Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
> I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
> They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
> I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...
>   

Just doing some checks on your email's domain (solowtech.com, assuming 
that's the domain that cannot send to Yahoo).
Your DNS servers have different serial values, so you probably have 2 
different zone records, one on each server.
For your SPF records, you have this:

"v=spf1 a -all"


That says that the A record for your domain is the one that sends mail.

That's fine if example.com and mail.example.com resolve top the same IP,

but incorrect if they do not (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that - 
rusty on my SPF).

Your messages seem to be signed with domain keys, but I would also 
double check them against a server that tests domainkeys for you. Just 
do a search, there's several that will do this for you.  If each of your

DNS servers is serving different data, then you may have domainkeys on 
one zone record, but not on the other.  Yahoo may be checking the 
keyfile against the wrong DNS server (the one that may not have the
data).


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Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Jake Vickers]

Paul Heard wrote:

Hi Jake,

Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...
  


Just doing some checks on your email's domain (solowtech.com, assuming 
that's the domain that cannot send to Yahoo).
Your DNS servers have different serial values, so you probably have 2 
different zone records, one on each server.

For your SPF records, you have this:

"v=spf1 a -all"


That says that the A record for your domain is the one that sends mail.  
That's fine if example.com and mail.example.com resolve top the same IP, 
but incorrect if they do not (someone correct me if I'm wrong on that - 
rusty on my SPF).


Your messages seem to be signed with domain keys, but I would also 
double check them against a server that tests domainkeys for you. Just 
do a search, there's several that will do this for you.  If each of your 
DNS servers is serving different data, then you may have domainkeys on 
one zone record, but not on the other.  Yahoo may be checking the 
keyfile against the wrong DNS server (the one that may not have the data).



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Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Jake Vickers]

Paul Heard wrote:

Hi Jake,

Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...

I have filled out the postmaster forms at yahoo at least a half dozen times,
Still no help on their end.

The link in the smtp message is to the typical;

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html

which resolves to

http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/postmaster-22.html

Yahoo is a clown show...

I am not sending any bulk mailings,
Purely 1-1 correspondence for my clients.

It's ridiculous.

  


I agree there. But they're free, and as we all know people love free.
Keep at it. You'll eventually get it.  I know with other online mailers 
it takes 24-48 hours for anything to happen. so if you've filled out 
their forms, wait 24-48 hours at the earliest before you expect anything 
to happen. Same with adding them to the address book - they usually only 
update their system for things like that every 24-48 hours. I know if 
you get backlisted and they remove their block on you, they only update 
their blocklist every 12 hours and it then takes 24 hours to propagate.



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RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Paul Heard]

Hi Jake,

Not sure why qmail is not succeeding in the 5 minute retries.
I have my contacts in my yahoo account I just checked.
They have been in there for weeks, still not whitelisted.
I will create a few more accounts to see if it helps...

I have filled out the postmaster forms at yahoo at least a half dozen times,
Still no help on their end.

The link in the smtp message is to the typical;

http://help.yahoo.com/help/us/mail/defer/defer-06.html

which resolves to

http://help.yahoo.com/l/us/yahoo/mail/postmaster/postmaster-22.html

Yahoo is a clown show...

I am not sending any bulk mailings,
Purely 1-1 correspondence for my clients.

It's ridiculous.

-- 
Sincerely,

Paul Heard

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:43 PM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:
> Thanks Jake, you rule.
>
> My SPF records checkout, I have been manually running doqueue just to
clear
> get the mail delivered.
>
> I have no problems with AOL.
>
> I will try the yahoo account method thanks!
>
> I am getting the typical 421 deferred message over and over again.
>
> Eventually the messages go through if I continue to flush the queue,
> But if I leave it alone a lot of them time out the next day and I get the
> NDR from my box.
>
>   

That's strange. Qmail will attempt to redeliver the message every 5 
minutes until queuelifetime is met, so it should eventually make it out.
I am just warning you that Yahoo may treat your behavior like AOL 
would.  Yahoo also has a guilty-until-proven-innocent policy on email.
In there deferred messages there should be a link in there that explains 
why you were deferred. Hopefully!


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Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Jake Vickers]

Paul Heard wrote:

Thanks Jake, you rule.

My SPF records checkout, I have been manually running doqueue just to clear
get the mail delivered.

I have no problems with AOL.

I will try the yahoo account method thanks!

I am getting the typical 421 deferred message over and over again.

Eventually the messages go through if I continue to flush the queue,
But if I leave it alone a lot of them time out the next day and I get the
NDR from my box.

  


That's strange. Qmail will attempt to redeliver the message every 5 
minutes until queuelifetime is met, so it should eventually make it out.
I am just warning you that Yahoo may treat your behavior like AOL 
would.  Yahoo also has a guilty-until-proven-innocent policy on email.
In there deferred messages there should be a link in there that explains 
why you were deferred. Hopefully!



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RE: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Paul Heard]

Thanks Jake, you rule.

My SPF records checkout, I have been manually running doqueue just to clear
get the mail delivered.

I have no problems with AOL.

I will try the yahoo account method thanks!

I am getting the typical 421 deferred message over and over again.

Eventually the messages go through if I continue to flush the queue,
But if I leave it alone a lot of them time out the next day and I get the
NDR from my box.

-- 
Sincerely,

Paul Heard

-Original Message-
From: Jake Vickers [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2008 7:24 PM
To: qmailtoaster-list@qmailtoaster.com
Subject: Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

Paul Heard wrote:
> I am having major issues with all outgoing emails to yahoo being deferred.
> Have filled out all the postmaster forms and installed domain keys to no
> avail.
> Yahoo really sucks...
>
> As a temporary fix, I have added a qmailctl doqueue cron task to run every
> minute
> To try to create more attempts and get the mails delivered.
>
> It seems to be working but I wonder what the pitfalls are here at higher
> loads...
>
> Am I playing with fire here?
>
>   

If they're anything like AOL, you're playing with fire and gasoline.
AOL will keep en eye on your redelivery attempts for deferred messages 
and score you higher and eventually block you if you attempt too many 
deliveries in a specific timeframe.
In my experience, when you employ domainkeys you need to have them in 
DNS for 10-15 days before Yahoo will start to pick them up.  DKIM takes 
2-7 days as well.  I also have 2 Yahoo accounts that I will send mail to 
for new servers and when they come in make sure they're not marked as 
spam and add addresses to the contact list - this gets them "whitelist" 
preference from what I've seen.
Also check your SPF records.  They should also be giving you a message 
when they defer you.

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Re: [qmailtoaster] yahoo deferrals fix

[Jake Vickers]

Paul Heard wrote:

I am having major issues with all outgoing emails to yahoo being deferred.
Have filled out all the postmaster forms and installed domain keys to no
avail.
Yahoo really sucks...

As a temporary fix, I have added a qmailctl doqueue cron task to run every
minute
To try to create more attempts and get the mails delivered.

It seems to be working but I wonder what the pitfalls are here at higher
loads...

Am I playing with fire here?

  


If they're anything like AOL, you're playing with fire and gasoline.
AOL will keep en eye on your redelivery attempts for deferred messages 
and score you higher and eventually block you if you attempt too many 
deliveries in a specific timeframe.
In my experience, when you employ domainkeys you need to have them in 
DNS for 10-15 days before Yahoo will start to pick them up.  DKIM takes 
2-7 days as well.  I also have 2 Yahoo accounts that I will send mail to 
for new servers and when they come in make sure they're not marked as 
spam and add addresses to the contact list - this gets them "whitelist" 
preference from what I've seen.
Also check your SPF records.  They should also be giving you a message 
when they defer you.


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