Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

David Lord wrote:
[]
> I've ntp logs going back many years and for me chrony was better
> suited to handling temperature changes but was originally used
> because of intermittent dialup connection.

Yes, having a history of expected variations due to temperature chnages, 
or perhaps even using the termperature sensors available on the PCs, might 
enable ntp to even better than it does now.

> With ntpd and maxpoll set to a low value (8) I find ntp can
> compensate ok but there is a lot of jitter and offset wanders
> more than I'd like.
>
> With high values of maxpoll (13) I see great stability until
> seasonal or other temperature  changes when ntp seems to lose
> the plot.
>
> This is no more than happens regularly anyway due to asymmetric
> latency in the adsl connection.
>
> I'm expecting a pps source to make a massive difference.

Yes, from milliseconds to microseconds - if you're lucky!

> I'm using NetBSD and just had  one of servers (c3-600)
> disconnected from lan for a while and moved upstairs so I
> could get a less erratic signal from gps/dcf/msf. I need
> external aerials. I'm about 100 mile from Anthorn, 600 mile
> from Frankfurt so suspect some interfering source.
>
> I've previously run NetBSD-1.5 on a 486dlc33, 8MB ram, and will
> try to use one of my junk 486dx6, 20MB ram, as dedicated ntp box,
> if I can get NetBSD-5 to install, otherwise will use one of the
> servers.
>
>
> David

Here in Edinburgh I have several cheap radio-clocks, and they all seem to 
sync OK.  Removing the CRT TVs (4th harmonic of timebase near 60KHz) 
probably helped.  We are less than 120km from Anthorn.  Rather than 
power-up another PC, you will probably find the performance on a shared 
server adequate - depending on your expectations, of course.  You can run 
that serial lead for some distance.

My page describing the hardware is here.  I now have two RS232 outputs 
paralleled from the GPS 18 LVC.
  http://www.satsignal.eu/ntp/FreeBSD-GPS-PPS.htm

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David Lord]

David J Taylor wrote:
> David Lord wrote:
> []
>> cheers
>>
>> Both those were listed on garmin site as uk suppliers but the RS price
>> that came up was almost 170 quid and I couldn't locate the GPS-18x LVC
>> on the gpsw site.
>>
>> I'll check both again anyway in case my eyesight was playing up.
> 
> GPS Warehouse have them in stock.

Same as before I searched on different variations

  Results for: gps-18x lvc

Sorry no products were found for gps-18x lvc

garmin + 18x just hit the jackpot

Now ordered, thanks



> With the GPS 18 LVC, even with Windows in a non-temperature-controlled 
> environment, I'm seeing about +/- 200us (and more plus than minus, it 
> seems that each time the heating switches on it generates a positive 
> offset spike, but the thermal stabilisation takes much longer and 
> generates a more extended negative period).

I've ntp logs going back many years and for me chrony was better
suited to handling temperature changes but was originally used
because of intermittent dialup connection.

With ntpd and maxpoll set to a low value (8) I find ntp can
compensate ok but there is a lot of jitter and offset wanders
more than I'd like.

With high values of maxpoll (13) I see great stability until
seasonal or other temperature  changes when ntp seems to lose
the plot.

This is no more than happens regularly anyway due to asymmetric
latency in the adsl connection.

I'm expecting a pps source to make a massive difference.

> 
>  http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/feenix_ntp_2.html
> 
> With FreeBSD on a very old 133MHz Pentium PC, I would easily get within 
> 20us.

I'm using NetBSD and just had  one of servers (c3-600)
disconnected from lan for a while and moved upstairs so I
could get a less erratic signal from gps/dcf/msf. I need
external aerials. I'm about 100 mile from Anthorn, 600 mile
from Frankfurt so suspect some interfering source.

I've previously run NetBSD-1.5 on a 486dlc33, 8MB ram, and will
try to use one of my junk 486dx6, 20MB ram, as dedicated ntp box,
if I can get NetBSD-5 to install, otherwise will use one of the
servers.


David

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

David Lord wrote:
[]
> cheers
>
> Both those were listed on garmin site as uk suppliers but the RS price
> that came up was almost 170 quid and I couldn't locate the GPS-18x LVC
> on the gpsw site.
>
> I'll check both again anyway in case my eyesight was playing up.

GPS Warehouse have them in stock.

> I had an unreliable Conrad DCF-77 Rx working earlier in the week that
> seemed to be giving around +/- 2ms with just the parse driver. I
> wasn't expecting such good results due to periodic reception problems
> and earlier having had no success at all with a Globalsat br304.
>
>
> David

With the GPS 18 LVC, even with Windows in a non-temperature-controlled 
environment, I'm seeing about +/- 200us (and more plus than minus, it 
seems that each time the heating switches on it generates a positive 
offset spike, but the thermal stabilisation takes much longer and 
generates a more extended negative period).

  http://www.satsignal.eu/mrtg/feenix_ntp_2.html

With FreeBSD on a very old 133MHz Pentium PC, I would easily get within 
20us.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David Lord]

David J Taylor wrote:
> David Lord wrote:
> []
>> I've had $60  but not accept my cc and require $35 bank transfer
>> fee or $60+ +$75 delivery and others don't export so I gave up.
>>
>> DL
> 
> David,
> 
> I'm advised that RS Components stock this at GBP 69 + VAT + delivery.  A 
> search of their Web site reveals the GPS 18x range:
> 
>  
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=gps+18x&x=0&y=0
>  
> 
> 
> and this /appears/ to be the LVC version, but it is /not/ completely 
> obvious.
> 
>  
> http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=gps+18x+LVC&x=16&y=16
>  
> 
> 
> e.g. they say the Garmin part number is 010-00321-36, but that yields 
> nothing on a search of the Garmin site.  However, it seems to be correct 
> here:
> 
>  https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=27594&pvID=14555#versionTab
> 
> These folk in the UK have the unit, at GBP 56.98 + VAT + delivery.
> 
>  http://www.gpsw.co.uk/details/prod2402.html
> 
> I've bought a GPS 18 LVC from them before, and have just ordered one of 
> the newer x-rated units.  The UK total price is about $106  (GBP 71.02).

cheers

Both those were listed on garmin site as uk suppliers but the RS price 
that came up was almost 170 quid and I couldn't locate the GPS-18x LVC 
on the gpsw site.

I'll check both again anyway in case my eyesight was playing up.

I had an unreliable Conrad DCF-77 Rx working earlier in the week that
seemed to be giving around +/- 2ms with just the parse driver. I
wasn't expecting such good results due to periodic reception problems
and earlier having had no success at all with a Globalsat br304.


David

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

David Lord wrote:
[]
> I've had $60  but not accept my cc and require $35 bank transfer
> fee or $60+ +$75 delivery and others don't export so I gave up.
>
> DL

David,

I'm advised that RS Components stock this at GBP 69 + VAT + delivery.  A 
search of their Web site reveals the GPS 18x range:

  
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=gps+18x&x=0&y=0

and this /appears/ to be the LVC version, but it is /not/ completely 
obvious.

  
http://uk.rs-online.com/web/search/searchBrowseAction.html?method=searchProducts&searchTerm=gps+18x+LVC&x=16&y=16

e.g. they say the Garmin part number is 010-00321-36, but that yields 
nothing on a search of the Garmin site.  However, it seems to be correct 
here:

  https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?pID=27594&pvID=14555#versionTab

These folk in the UK have the unit, at GBP 56.98 + VAT + delivery.

  http://www.gpsw.co.uk/details/prod2402.html

I've bought a GPS 18 LVC from them before, and have just ordered one of 
the newer x-rated units.  The UK total price is about $106  (GBP 71.02).

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Todd Glassey CISM CIFI]

Richard B. Gilbert wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
>   
>> Unruh wrote:
>> 
>>> Nathaniel Homier  writes:
>>>
>>>   
 Hello.
 
 I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old
 portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line
 audio input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason
 is that I get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at
 very high prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I
 already have very nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time
 freq. from 2.5 to 15 very well.  My computer is the new pci express
 and I have no serial port.
 
>>> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
>>> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>>> That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.
>>>   
>> Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial card?
>>
>> David
>> 
>
> IF he has a serial port there is no problem.  Up until a few years ago 
> virtually every PC came with at least one serial port.  Serial devices 
> are not as fashionable as they used to be but it should be possible to 
> install a serial port if one is needed.
>
> An older PC works well as a time server; ntpd might use two or three 
> percent of the available processing capacoity.
>   
Uh - I cant think of a motherboard which doesn't have at least one USB 
controller integrated into the I/O controller whatever that is. Most Bus 
controllers have an embedded USB controller and at least two USB ports 
attached to them. They are part of virtually ALL of the low-speed 
bus-hubs (i.e. the Southbridge type devices).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southbridge_(computing)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Pin_Count

and the legacy systems through the ISA bus -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Industry_Standard_Architecture
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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Mr. James W. Laferriere]

Hello Steve ,

On Fri, 1 May 2009, Steve Kostecke wrote:
> On 2009-05-01, n...@blacklist.anitech-systems wrote:
>
>> Steve Kostecke wrote:
>>
>>> Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older GPS-18 model are
>>> still available. All three version of the newer GPS-18x model are
>>> available.
>>
>> Four.
>
> The GPS 18x 5Hz is a different product from the GPS 18x.

Might you be able to share with us how it differs ?
Oh and maybe if it may be still useable on an NTP server ?

Tia ,  JimL
-- 
+--+
| James   W.   Laferriere | SystemTechniques | Give me VMS |
| Network&System Engineer | 2133McCullam Ave |  Give me Linux  |
| bab...@baby-dragons.com | Fairbanks, AK. 99701 |   only  on  AXP |
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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[jimp]

Nathaniel Homier  wrote:
> On Fri, 01 May 2009 21:15:02 +, jimp wrote:
> 
>> David Woolley  wrote:
> 
>>> You may find that you need SSB capability on the HF receiver.
>> 
>> Not for any WWV station.
> 
> We can use the synchronous detector to even out the signal and select the 
> sideband which has the least noise.

"Can" is not the same as "need", it would take more than "SSB
capability on the HF receiver" to implement this and "SSB capability"
does not guarantee a synchronous detector.

In my experience, there are more problems with signal fade with WWV
stations then sideband noise.


-- 
Jim Pennino

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-05-01, n...@blacklist.anitech-systems wrote:

> Steve Kostecke wrote:
>
>> Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older GPS-18 model are
>> still available. All three version of the newer GPS-18x model are
>> available.
>
> Four.

The GPS 18x 5Hz is a different product from the GPS 18x.

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Nathaniel Homier]

On Fri, 01 May 2009 21:15:02 +, jimp wrote:

> David Woolley  wrote:

>> You may find that you need SSB capability on the HF receiver.
> 
> Not for any WWV station.

We can use the synchronous detector to even out the signal and select the 
sideband which has the least noise.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[jimp]

David Woolley  wrote:
> Nathaniel Homier wrote:
> 
>> 
>> Thank you for the ideas.  There were many and I think I will start with 
>> the audio drivers first.  But I will keep an eye on the serial/gps 
>> solution as well.
>> 
> 
> You may find that you need SSB capability on the HF receiver.

Not for any WWV station.



-- 
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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David Woolley]

Nathaniel Homier wrote:

> 
> Thank you for the ideas.  There were many and I think I will start with 
> the audio drivers first.  But I will keep an eye on the serial/gps 
> solution as well.
> 

You may find that you need SSB capability on the HF receiver.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David Lord]

David J Taylor wrote:
> Steve Kostecke wrote:
>> On 2009-05-01, David J Taylor  wrote:
>>
>>> That's the newer 18x version.
>>
>> The 18x is the replacement for the 18.
>>
>>> Garmin's web site seems a little confusing - if I try searching the
>>> Garmin site for "GPS 18x", all I get is the download for the unit
>>> firmware!
>>
>> There's no need to search.
>>
>> Just click "Products" on the page top menu and then click "OEM".
> 
> .. which shows "GPS 18" and not "GPS 18x", at least from the UK
> 
>> Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older GPS-18 model are
>> still available. All three version of the newer GPS-18x model are
>> available.
> 
> .. and lists: the PC, USB and LVC versions under "Features" but just the 
> USB and PC versions under "Versions".  From the OEM link, I'm being 
> pushed to the page:
> 
>  https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=223
> 
> So you can see why it's a little confusing, and I felt the need to search.
> 
> I do wish there was somewhere in Europe selling the GPS 18x LVC at a 
> reasonable price - it's rather more than the US $80 you quoted.

I've had $60  but not accept my cc and require $35 bank transfer
fee or $60+ +$75 delivery and others don't export so I gave up.

DL

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
> On 2009-05-01, David J Taylor  wrote:
>
>> That's the newer 18x version.
>
> The 18x is the replacement for the 18.
>
>> Garmin's web site seems a little confusing - if I try searching the
>> Garmin site for "GPS 18x", all I get is the download for the unit
>> firmware!
>
> There's no need to search.
>
> Just click "Products" on the page top menu and then click "OEM".

.. which shows "GPS 18" and not "GPS 18x", at least from the UK

> Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older GPS-18 model are
> still available. All three version of the newer GPS-18x model are
> available.

.. and lists: the PC, USB and LVC versions under "Features" but just the 
USB and PC versions under "Versions".  From the OEM link, I'm being pushed 
to the page:

  https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=223

So you can see why it's a little confusing, and I felt the need to search.

I do wish there was somewhere in Europe selling the GPS 18x LVC at a 
reasonable price - it's rather more than the US $80 you quoted.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
> Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older
>  GPS-18 model are still available.  All three version
>  of the newer GPS-18x model are available.

Four.

Part Number: 010-00321-37 (5Hz)

"The GPS 18x 5Hz is a high-sensitivity GPS sensor that
  replaces the GPS 18 5Hz."

-- 
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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-05-01, David J Taylor  wrote:

> That's the newer 18x version.

The 18x is the replacement for the 18.

> Garmin's web site seems a little confusing - if I try searching the Garmin 
> site for "GPS 18x", all I get is the download for the unit firmware!

There's no need to search.

Just click "Products" on the page top menu and then click "OEM".

Apparently only the USB and PC versions of the older GPS-18 model are
still available. All three version of the newer GPS-18x model are
available.

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
[]
> The drop-down peoduct selection box on
> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 lists the
> following versions:
>
> GPS 18x USB - $84.99 USD
> GPS 18x PC  - $84.99 USD
> GPS 18x LVC, 5m - $79.99

That's the newer 18x version.

Garmin's web site seems a little confusing - if I try searching the Garmin 
site for "GPS 18x", all I get is the download for the unit firmware!

I'm sure that the GPS 18x LVC, 5m will be an excellent unit, as it has a 
much better sensitivity than the older GPS 18.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-05-01, David J Taylor  wrote:

> Steve Kostecke wrote: []
>
>> I was replying to article
>> e-idnzgzia-_i2funz2dnuvz_g9i4...@bresnan.com where Nathaniel Homier
>> said:
>>
>> "... make matters worse the lvc version has been discontinued."
>>
>> The LVC _is_ still available.
>
> It's the "PC" version which is discontinued.

The drop-down peoduct selection box on
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 lists the
following versions:

GPS 18x USB - $84.99 USD
GPS 18x PC  - $84.99 USD
GPS 18x LVC, 5m - $79.99

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
[]
> I was replying to article e-idnzgzia-_i2funz2dnuvz_g9i4...@bresnan.com
> where Nathaniel Homier said:
> 
> "... make matters worse the lvc version has been discontinued."
> 
> The LVC _is_ still available.

It's the "PC" version which is discontinued.

Cheers,
David

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-05-01, David J Taylor  wrote:

> E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists wrote:
>
>> Steve Kostecke wrote:
>>
>>> The GPS-18 has been replaced by the GPS-18x. According to
>>> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 all 3 varients
>>> are still available.

[snip]

>>  "The GPS 18x 5Hz is a
>> high-sensitivity GPS sensor that replaces the GPS 18 5Hz."
>
> Only GPS 18x LVC and GPS 18x-5Hz have the pulse-per-second (PPS)
> output.

I was replying to article e-idnzgzia-_i2funz2dnuvz_g9i4...@bresnan.com
where Nathaniel Homier said:

"... make matters worse the lvc version has been discontinued."

The LVC _is_ still available.

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists wrote:
> Steve Kostecke wrote:
>> The GPS-18 has been replaced by the GPS-18x. According to
>> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 all
>>  3 varients are still available.
> 
> 4 variants?
> 
> GPS 18x
> Part Number: 010-00321-31 (USB)
> Part Number: 010-00321-34 (PC)
> Part Number: 010-00321-36 (LVC)
> 
> Part Number: 010-00321-37 (5Hz)
> 
> "The GPS 18x 5Hz is a high-sensitivity GPS sensor that
>  replaces the GPS 18 5Hz."

Only GPS 18x LVC and GPS 18x-5Hz have the pulse-per-second (PPS) output.

David

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Richard B. Gilbert]

E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> Unruh wrote:
>>> ... RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>> Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial card?
> 
> Perhaps he meant a USB serial port?
> 

USB is nearly useless for NTP!  USB has latencies sufficiently large 
and variable to render it unsuitable for use with NTP.  Most computers 
used to be sold with one or more serial ports.  The newest computers may 
not have serial ports as they come from the factory but there is no 
reason why one or more serial ports can't be added.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Garrett Wollman]

In article ,
Richard B. Gilbert  wrote:

>USB is nearly useless for NTP!  USB has latencies sufficiently large 
>and variable to render it unsuitable for use with NTP.

It doesn't have to be; USB supports isochronous transfers.
Unfortunately for NTP's needs, USB-to-serial adapters use "interrupt"
transfers exclusively, which, as Richard says, gives unbounded latency
and variance.  You could build a timing device that connected via USB
using isochronous transfers, but you'd need a fairly specialized
(kernel) driver to talk to it.  I wouldn't want to try to feed a 1-PPS
signal through it, either.  (IEEE 1394b might be better in that
regard, but requires a much smarter device, at which point you might
as well just get a timecode receiver that speaks NTP.)

>The newest computers may not have serial ports as they come from the
>factory but there is no reason why one or more serial ports can't be
>added.

Certainly there is: you might not have any suitable expansion
interface.

-GAWollman

-- 
Garrett A. Wollman   | The real tragedy of human existence is not that we are
woll...@csail.mit.edu| nasty by nature, but that a cruel structural asymmetry
Opinions not those   | grants to rare events of meanness such power to shape
of MIT or CSAIL. | our history. - S.J. Gould, Ten Thousand Acts of Kindness

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
> The GPS-18 has been replaced by the GPS-18x. According to
> https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 all
>  3 varients are still available.

4 variants?

GPS 18x
Part Number: 010-00321-31 (USB)
Part Number: 010-00321-34 (PC)
Part Number: 010-00321-36 (LVC)

Part Number: 010-00321-37 (5Hz)

"The GPS 18x 5Hz is a high-sensitivity GPS sensor that
  replaces the GPS 18 5Hz."

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-04-30, Nathaniel Homier  wrote:

> Whoops, the PC version does not provide a pps signal and to make matters 
> worse the lvc version has been discontinued.  Provantage looks like they 
> might still have stock.

The GPS-18 has been replaced by the GPS-18x. According to
https://buy.garmin.com/shop/shop.do?cID=158&pID=27594 all 3 varients are
still available.

You can buy a GPS-18x LVC from:

http://www.provantage.com/garmin-010-00321-36~7GRMO006.htm

$60.74 plus shipping

-- 
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NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Nathaniel Homier]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:24:12 +, Unruh wrote:

> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug. That
> way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.

Looks like the GPS 18LVC is now available with a serial port 
configuration.  I think there calling it GPS 18PC and it comes with a 
power supply already attached to it.  Good deal.

Nate

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Nathaniel Homier]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:59:48 -0500, Nathaniel Homier wrote:

> On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:24:12 +, Unruh wrote:
> 
>> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
>> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>> That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.
> 
> Looks like the GPS 18LVC is now available with a serial port
> configuration.  I think there calling it GPS 18PC and it comes with a
> power supply already attached to it.  Good deal.
> 
> Nate

Whoops, the PC version does not provide a pps signal and to make matters 
worse the lvc version has been discontinued.  Provantage looks like they 
might still have stock.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Nathaniel Homier]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2009 15:06:41 +, Steve Kostecke wrote:

> Yes, if your audio system works with the NTP Audio decoder drivers.
> 
> For WWV/H see:
> http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.4/drivers/driver36.html or
> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/drivers/driver36.html
> Sounds like WWV ... the Type-36 driver is the one you need.

Thank you for the ideas.  There were many and I think I will start with 
the audio drivers first.  But I will keep an eye on the serial/gps 
solution as well.

Nate

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists wrote:
> David J Taylor wrote:
>> Unruh wrote:
>>> ... RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>>
>> Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial
>> card?
>
> Perhaps he meant a USB serial port?

Yes, that's a possibility.  I've not tried one here to know just how much 
extra error is introduced in a typical system.

Cheers,
David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[E-Mail Sent to this address will be added to the BlackLists]

David J Taylor wrote:
> Unruh wrote:
>> ... RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>
> Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial card?

Perhaps he meant a USB serial port?

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Richard B. Gilbert]

Steve Kostecke wrote:
> On 2009-04-30, Nathaniel Homier  wrote:
> 
>> I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old
>> portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line
>> audio input. This would be motherboard audio.
> 
> Yes, if your audio system works with the NTP Audio decoder drivers.
> 
> For WWV/H see:
> http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.4/drivers/driver36.html
> or
> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/drivers/driver36.html
> 
> For CHU see:
> http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.4/drivers/driver7.html
> ior
> http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/drivers/driver7.html
> 
>> The primary reason is that I get the impression that ntp radio clocks
>> are for sale at very high prices. The most I have to spend is about
>> $200.
> 
> As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Garmin GPS-18x LVC is a very good
> and inexpensive solution. The receiver is ~$70 (you do need to add a
> connector).
> 

And a power supply!  AIRC a 5 Volt DC supply is required.  Power may be 
supplied by the computer or by a separate supply (wall wart).  Some wall 
warts may offer a regulated 5 VDC while others will deliver 5 VDC into a 
particular load and a greater or lesser voltage to a smaller or a 
greater load.

> For optimal performance you would need to install a serial port card in
> your PC to use it. A USB serial port adapter would work but the time
> signal stability will be degraded.
> 
>> I already have very nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time
>> freq. from 2.5 to 15 very well.
> 
> Sounds like WWV ... the Type-36 driver is the one you need.
> 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Richard B. Gilbert]

David J Taylor wrote:
> Unruh wrote:
>> Nathaniel Homier  writes:
>>
>>> Hello.
>>
>>> I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old
>>> portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line
>>> audio input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason
>>> is that I get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at
>>> very high prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I
>>> already have very nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time
>>> freq. from 2.5 to 15 very well.  My computer is the new pci express
>>> and I have no serial port.
>>
>> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
>> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
>> That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.
> 
> Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial card?
> 
> David

IF he has a serial port there is no problem.  Up until a few years ago 
virtually every PC came with at least one serial port.  Serial devices 
are not as fashionable as they used to be but it should be possible to 
install a serial port if one is needed.

An older PC works well as a time server; ntpd might use two or three 
percent of the available processing capacity.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-04-30, Nathaniel Homier  wrote:

> I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old
> portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line
> audio input. This would be motherboard audio.

Yes, if your audio system works with the NTP Audio decoder drivers.

For WWV/H see:
http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.4/drivers/driver36.html
or
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/drivers/driver36.html

For CHU see:
http://doc.ntp.org/4.2.4/drivers/driver7.html
ior
http://www.eecis.udel.edu/~ntp/ntp_spool/html/drivers/driver7.html

> The primary reason is that I get the impression that ntp radio clocks
> are for sale at very high prices. The most I have to spend is about
> $200.

As has been mentioned elsewhere, the Garmin GPS-18x LVC is a very good
and inexpensive solution. The receiver is ~$70 (you do need to add a
connector).

For optimal performance you would need to install a serial port card in
your PC to use it. A USB serial port adapter would work but the time
signal stability will be degraded.

> I already have very nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time
> freq. from 2.5 to 15 very well.

Sounds like WWV ... the Type-36 driver is the one you need.

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Steve Kostecke]

On 2009-04-30, Unruh  wrote:

> Nathaniel Homier  writes:
>
>>My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.
>
> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
> That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.

He doesn't have a serial port.

-- 
Steve Kostecke 
NTP Public Services Project - http://support.ntp.org/

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Sam Nelson]

In article , koste...@ntp.org 
says...
> 
> On 2009-04-30, Unruh  wrote:
> 
> > Nathaniel Homier  writes:
> >
> >>My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.
> >
> > If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
> > local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
> > That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.
> 
> He doesn't have a serial port.

Depending on the rates charged by the `local radio hobbyist', the same 
$200 might stretch to a serial-port card.
-- 
SAm.

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Kevin Oberman]

> From: Unruh 
> Date: Thu, 30 Apr 2009 14:24:12 GMT
> Sender: questions-bounces+oberman=es@lists.ntp.org
> 
> Nathaniel Homier  writes:
> 
> >Hello.
> 
> >I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old 
> >portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line audio 
> >input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason is that I 
> >get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at very high 
> >prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I already have very 
> >nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time freq. from 2.5 to 15 
> >very well.  My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.
> 
> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your local
> radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug. That way you
> wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.

He says that he lacks a serial port. That leaves USB which is a terrible
choice, so...

Does the card really lack any serial support? While more and more mobos
lack a serial connector, most still have a serial interface. (I have
never seen wone that does not.) It is usually presented on a header and
you can bring it out to a standard connector, usually one mounted to fit
in a card slot, but having no card, so it just replaces a blank panel.

There is also often a need to enable the second serial port, either in
BIOS or via a jumper or switch on the mobo. The mobo documents should
cover this and are a;most certainly available from the manufacturer's
web site.

If the card really lacks serial support, please post the make and model
so people can avoid it. (And not just because of NTP.)
-- 
R. Kevin Oberman, Network Engineer
Energy Sciences Network (ESnet)
Ernest O. Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory (Berkeley Lab)
E-mail: ober...@es.net  Phone: +1 510 486-8634
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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David J Taylor]

Unruh wrote:
> Nathaniel Homier  writes:
>
>> Hello.
>
>> I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old
>> portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line
>> audio input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason
>> is that I get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at
>> very high prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I
>> already have very nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time
>> freq. from 2.5 to 15 very well.  My computer is the new pci express
>> and I have no serial port.
>
> If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your
> local radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug.
> That way you wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.

Where are you proposing he plug the RS232 lead in?  Buy a PCI/serial card?

David 

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Unruh]

Nathaniel Homier  writes:

>Hello.

>I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old 
>portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line audio 
>input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason is that I 
>get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at very high 
>prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I already have very 
>nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time freq. from 2.5 to 15 
>very well.  My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.

If you have $200, why not get a GPS 18LVC for about $70 and pay your local
radio hobbyist to install an RS232 plug and a USB poser plug. That way you
wil get microsecond rather than millisecond accuracy.



>Nate

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Re: [ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[David Mills]

Nathaniel,

While I have an expensive computer-tunable receiver and outdoor dipole, 
the audio plugs into the line-in port of the comoputer. Just about any 
shortwave receiver should work as well, although it might not receive 
signals throughout the day and night. There is an extensive discussion 
on these issues on the Audio Drivers page of the NTP documentation.

Dave

Nathaniel Homier wrote:

>Hello.
>
>I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old 
>portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line audio 
>input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason is that I 
>get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at very high 
>prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I already have very 
>nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time freq. from 2.5 to 15 
>very well.  My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.
>
>Nate
>
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[ntp:questions] Can the line audio out of HF radio be used to sync ntp. Trying to get a cheap ($) radio method.

[Nathaniel Homier]

Hello.

I would like to know if one can use the line audio out of any old 
portable shortwave radio tuned to a time signal and fed via a line audio 
input.  This would be motherboard audio.  The primary reason is that I 
get the impression that ntp radio clocks are for sale at very high 
prices.  The most I have to spend is about $200.  I already have very 
nice Sony 7600G HF portable and that gets the time freq. from 2.5 to 15 
very well.  My computer is the new pci express and I have no serial port.

Nate

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