Re: [RBW] RBW Listers Take Over The West Point Inn, June 24 & 25 - Join us there!!!

[René Sterental]

Are there defined plans for the Saturday ride? Like when to be where, how
long and hilly it is, etc.?

I'm trying to make plans to show up for that ride, but need to start
working on family logistics. And, of course, which bike to bring!

René

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, cyclotourist  wrote:

> June 24th & 25th... make it happen!
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Hugh Smitham  > wrote:
>
>> I like the way you're thinking Mark.
>> On May 12, 2016 6:48 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
>> >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> That's very funny, same thing happens to me every time I see this post.
>>> Beacon is just a few miles north of the academy,  on the other side of the
>>> Hudson River. I think we have enough of a Hudson Valley contingent, plus
>>> NYC Bobs are only a train ride away. Wait, getting my lists confused.
>>> Anyway, enough RBW/BoBs whatevers to do, if not a full on sleepover, at
>>> least a sympatico East Coast Rivish Ride that weekend. If we get real
>>> ambitious, we could end up here:
>>>
>>> http://www.thewestpointmotel.com/
>>>
>>> Not quite the renowned rep of the West Point Inn, but hey, we New
>>> Yorkers can roll with it.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:32:52 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com
>>>  wrote:

 I bet you could put on a pretty good ride along the Hudson!!! Even get
 some cross-continental pollination!

 On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:29 PM, LLM  wrote:

> This sounds like fun.  I'm new here (with a dark mustard Clem L-Style
> on order).  I also live in NY, not too far from the West Point Military
> Academy.  For a few minutes, I was envisioning a venue near the Hudson
> River and figuring out how I might attend.  How disappointing!
> Linda M.
>
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 --
 Cheers,
 David

 Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

 "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal



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>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
>
> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>
> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
>
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Jan's Appaloosa

[René Sterental]

Wow! That tape is fantastic!

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, Chris Birkenmaier  wrote:

> Your wife is a lucky girl!
>
> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 2:00:18 AM UTC-4, stonehog wrote:
>>
>> Pics of the build for my wife's new Appaloosa.  Tape in honor of the late
>> Prince.
>>
>> https://flic.kr/s/aHskzHMauB
>>
>> Brian Hanson
>> Seattle, WA
>> Bike Blog 
>> @stonehog
>> stonehogboɥǝuoʇs
>>
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Re: [RBW] RBW Listers Take Over The West Point Inn, June 24 & 25 - Join us there!!!

[Hugh Smitham]

Working on a route. Off on an Overnight. Details soon.

~Hugh

~Hugh

“Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
moving.” ― Albert Einstein

http://velocipeedemusings.com/



On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:55 AM, René Sterental  wrote:

> Are there defined plans for the Saturday ride? Like when to be where, how
> long and hilly it is, etc.?
>
> I'm trying to make plans to show up for that ride, but need to start
> working on family logistics. And, of course, which bike to bring!
>
> René
>
> On Thursday, May 12, 2016, cyclotourist  wrote:
>
>> June 24th & 25th... make it happen!
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Hugh Smitham 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I like the way you're thinking Mark.
>>> On May 12, 2016 6:48 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
>>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>>
 That's very funny, same thing happens to me every time I see this post.
 Beacon is just a few miles north of the academy,  on the other side of the
 Hudson River. I think we have enough of a Hudson Valley contingent, plus
 NYC Bobs are only a train ride away. Wait, getting my lists confused.
 Anyway, enough RBW/BoBs whatevers to do, if not a full on sleepover, at
 least a sympatico East Coast Rivish Ride that weekend. If we get real
 ambitious, we could end up here:

 http://www.thewestpointmotel.com/

 Not quite the renowned rep of the West Point Inn, but hey, we New
 Yorkers can roll with it.

 On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:32:52 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com
 wrote:
>
> I bet you could put on a pretty good ride along the Hudson!!! Even get
> some cross-continental pollination!
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:29 PM, LLM  wrote:
>
>> This sounds like fun.  I'm new here (with a dark mustard Clem L-Style
>> on order).  I also live in NY, not too far from the West Point Military
>> Academy.  For a few minutes, I was envisioning a venue near the Hudson
>> River and figuring out how I might attend.  How disappointing!
>> Linda M.
>>
>> --
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>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
>
> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>
> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
>
>
>
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> David
>>
>> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>>
>> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
>>
>>
>>
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[RBW] good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Will]

Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 

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[RBW] Clementine build question

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

I have a puzzling problem. I'm building a single speed Clementine for myself, 
and for chain line reasons I need to use a 131mm BB (with an ISO taper to 
accommodate a Paul crank I have available).  Harris Cyclery had a Phil BB that 
fit the bill.

Here's the puzzle:  I took out the Shimano 110mm BB that had been installed by 
Riv and tried to install the Phil, but the cups won't screw into the BB shell, 
on either side.  I checked to make sure the cups were British thread; that's 
what I ordered, but to be sure I got a second set of British Phil BB cups from 
the parts bin, and they won't go in either.

Just to check further, I reinstalled the original Shimano BB; no problem at 
all. Went right in.

I'm not reversing the cups -- each is going in (or I'm trying to put them in) 
the appropriate side, and I'm screwing them in in the correct direction.

What am I missing?






The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden Arps and is not 
performing legal service on behalf of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP 
& Affiliates. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or probonolaw.com 
domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on behalf of Skadden, 
Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP & Affiliates.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Bicycling Magazine redeems itself...a little.

[Bernie Burton]

I was a little known member of the Bicycling Magazine editorial health
board from 1987 to 2001. Ed Pavelka, Fred Matheny, Dr. Ed Burke and the
entirety of the editorial health board were summarily dismissed at the same
time.

Dr Bernie Burton

On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> The editor I have in mind was quite a bit after DeLong and Bertoe; this
> man was part of the team through the '90s, and among other entries I recall
> his account of a record breaking - personal or absolute - ride through the
> up and down terrain of Pennsylvania. He later had a blog, but I forget his
> name -- aggressive roadie type, but interesting to read while, at the same
> time, sneering smugly at his racer puritanism. A big man with curly hair,
> IIRC -- which, given my weakness for remembering names, may not count for
> much.
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 8:44 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>
>> "... Of course, one reason I dumped Bicycling is that most of its writing
>> was pretty dull, after they dumped their editors -- Bill Strickland, the
>> aging, raging roadie whose name I forget, and others in the annum
>> horribilem 2 decades or so ago ..."
>>
>> I used to subscribe for a number or years back in the mid-70's, too, and
>> the tech editor I remember was Fred DeLong.  Not sure if that's who you're
>> thinking of.  I will say this about mags like Bicycling - special interest
>> periodicals tend to regurgitate the same old stuff in a cyclical fashion
>> because how much can you talk about something in a niche, narrow scope
>> without exhausting the material, doesn't matter if it's golf, fishing,
>> archery, etc.  So, they tend to pick up new, unfamiliar readers on the
>> front end and gradually drop the more experienced ones off the back.  It's
>> a tough business and the new, fresh break throughs are few and far
>> between.  Which is probably why they went along with the latest and
>> greatest when all the aluminum, titanium, and CF stuff came along.  But the
>> great thing about the old, old Bicycling was people like Fred and his
>> always innovative ways of viewing something, including clever maintenance
>> and repairs.
>>
>>
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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

This anti-disc, pro rim-brake argument feels like flogging a dead horse. 
I've ridden more than enough disc brake bikes to know the appeal and 
see/feel firsthand how they surpass rim brakes in so many ways. I'm in no 
way anti-rim brake, in fact I'm usually the odd-man out on rides as the 
only rim-brake guy, still race canti-brake CX bikes, etc etc etc. 

Just because rim brakes technically have more mechanical advantage, by way 
of being further from the hub, doesn't mean anything positive or negative 
on its own. Just because disc rotors are close to the hub and require more 
stopping force and frame construction considerations also doesn't mean 
anything positive or negative on it's own. So disc brakes frames need 
stouter construction and re-enforcementand? I find it particularly 
amusing coming from Rivendell, who's frames are not exactly known for being 
built to be light. Yes, discs put large forces on a frame, but who cares? 
That can be mitigated by design. The fact is, while rim brakes work quite 
well in most regular circumstances (dry, warm) discs have better and 
stronger stopping power in lousy conditions than rim brakes will have. 

I remember coming down Rainier on my Atlantis while it was drizzling, 
loaded with front panniers and saddle bags. Normally I can lift my rear 
wheel off the ground with the Paul touring canti's, bike unloaded. I was 
coming down at about 60km/h, not a crazy speed on a bike by any means, and 
it took me probably 100 meters to come to a stop. I was shocked, and 
getting ready to jump off my bike into the ditch as I realized I would be 
sailing through the intersection at the bottom of the hill. Wet rims = 
compromised braking. Wet rotors = basically no difference. 


In winter, when I bring my bike outside into sub-zero temperatures, the 
warm rims melt the snow as I ride. After applying the brakes, that melted 
water is spread nice and evenly across the brake track, which freezes 
shortly after. Many times I've had ZERO braking ability within two blocks 
of leaving because of this issue. Discs don't run through the snow and are 
way less susceptible to this problem.

So basically, rim brakes work wonderfully, in some/most circumstances (If I 
lived in Texas I'd probably never need discs). But disc brakes work just as 
well in those circumstances, and better in the areas rim brakes fall short, 
though require some frame construction considerations to be safe. I think 
most people would agree with that. 

So, I fail to understand why any bike manufacturer would refuse to consider 
building a bike with discs. If the drawback of discs are hubs popping out 
of forks (lawyer lips, front-facing drop outs, and through axles solved 
this already), and frame stress (build the frame accordingly, like pretty 
much most frame builders out there are doing now), that seems like a pretty 
paltry price to pay compared to the stated drawbacks of rim brakes: 
possibly popping tubes and crashing form overheated rims (I know a guy who 
had this happen on FLAT ground in Texas heat!), or having little to no 
braking from wet/frozen surfaces, or compromised brakes as a result of bent 
rims seems like an easy call? Disc = your frame needs heavy 
re-enforcement. Rim = it almost always works, but when it doesn't you're in 
for a RUDE surprise. Kinda reminds me of the argument Riv uses against 
Carbon frames - they usually work, but when they fail, they fail 
catastrophically 

One of the things i love about the Rivendell brand is championing bicycle 
design that just works, stuff that makes sense and is no-nonsense. To me, 
that is exactly what disc brakes are. I think that is why this debate irks 
me (can you tell LOL), because I agree with pretty much all 
Grant/Rivendell's opinions except this one. I love my Atlantis, most of the 
time have no complaints about it's braking abilities, love the look of 
canti's more than any other braking system, and will continue to have rim 
brake bikes in the future I'm sure. But man... A disc option of this bike? 
Or a disc Hunq? I'd be over the moon for that. 

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:19:47 AM UTC-5, Will wrote:
>
> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>

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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Kieran J]

Great post, I always enjoy Grant's writings.

Physics aside, I don't completely buy his staunch position on disks. I 
would certainly consider disks on future bikes (a serious dirt bike, my 
next winter slushmobile). I imagine disk brakes (or some of them at least) 
are adequately user-serviceable once you learn how.

That said, I do feel like dual pivot/canti brakes have always done the job 
well in most cases and I know how to adjust them them they need it. I won't 
be turning my back on them anytime soon.

KJ


On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 10:19:47 AM UTC-4, Will wrote:
>
> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Wiring a Spanninga dyno tail light question...

[Anton Tutter]

The Spanninga wire connector system is not the best, but it's designed to 
be "easy" (for what it's worth).  Yes you only pass bare wire through the 
connector on the back. the little plastic piece is removable, and is used 
to pinch the bare wire ends against terminals inside the taillight. Make 
sure you drill at least a 1/4" hole in the fender for the wire to pass 
through, and de-burr it well. Run the hot wire from the Edelux taillight 
output (which is located on the bottom of the mount) to the taillight and 
insert into either of the two taillight inputs. There is no need to splice 
into the "core" wire that you mention (usually referred to has "hot" or 
"positive".  Then take a short wire that you connect to the rear fender 
stay nearby, or to the taillight's mounting bolt, and insert that into the 
other taillight input. It doesn't matter which one you use, there is no 
polarity. That's your "Ground".

I like to run the taillight wire inside the rolled edge of the fender. I 
use a dremel with a cutting wheel to cut entry and exit holes in the rolled 
edge, then de-burr them. Like this:




Good luck.

Anton
velolumino.com




On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 6:34:51 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Decided to install it on my rear Honjo fender. Running wires from edeluxe 
> II hanging headlight.
>
> I have Schmidt SON wiring. I know how to wire it up on the headlight end. 
> My questions are about wiring to the tail light.
>
> *Wiring on the Spanninga light side:*
> 1. After I separate the ground threads from the power core of the Scmidt 
> wire, can I just insert the bare wires into the back of the Spanninga to 
> the contacts, or do I need spades of some kind?
> It looks like only bare wires can fit through the housing wire holes on 
> the back of the Spanninga housing.
>
> 2. Schmidt power core wire goes to Spanninga positive, and the ground to 
> negative? Or no need to connect the ground end on the Spanninga as it will 
> be connected to the headlight mount bolt anyway on the other end?
>
> As you can see, I know nothing about the flow of electrons.
>
> *Also:*
> *How did you physically run the wires into the fender? Looks like they 
> will get smushed against the fender when I tighten the Spanninga housing to 
> it.*
>

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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

['Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am a satisfied rim braker. I've never seriously considered riding discs 
but I can see the attraction in avoiding compromised braking in the wet and 
annoying mud on rim grinding noises when off road.

One big factor that Grant has missed is the wear effect of rim brakes. 
Sooner or later the rim will need replacing. That means a wheel rebuild 
which may well lead to getting a new hub at the same time. That's a whole 
new wheel just because your brakes are worn - quite a waste if you have 
decent, handbuilt wheels that otherwise would have lasted a long time. On a 
disc system, you just replace the disc.

The related thing is that wear on the rim is hard to detect. You either 
play it safe or you take it to the limit - which you only reach when your 
rim is so compromised it blows. Discs are far more transparent. As Mark 
says above, on this basis Grant's preference for rim brakes goes against 
the usual argument for steel over carbon.

On the issue of servicing, I've never worked on disc brakes but surely if 
you avoid hydraulics and stick with cable operated then servicing/repair is 
easy.

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

Servicing discs could not be easier. Hydraulic's are a bit more finicky,
but they're no more difficult to dial in than my Paul canti's are. Changing
the pads takes 60 seconds. Actually the more I think about it, the more I
think discs are much easier to setup and service than rim brakes. You just
have to do it once to catch on.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:56 AM, 'Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> I am a satisfied rim braker. I've never seriously considered riding discs
> but I can see the attraction in avoiding compromised braking in the wet and
> annoying mud on rim grinding noises when off road.
>
> One big factor that Grant has missed is the wear effect of rim brakes.
> Sooner or later the rim will need replacing. That means a wheel rebuild
> which may well lead to getting a new hub at the same time. That's a whole
> new wheel just because your brakes are worn - quite a waste if you have
> decent, handbuilt wheels that otherwise would have lasted a long time. On a
> disc system, you just replace the disc.
>
> The related thing is that wear on the rim is hard to detect. You either
> play it safe or you take it to the limit - which you only reach when your
> rim is so compromised it blows. Discs are far more transparent. As Mark
> says above, on this basis Grant's preference for rim brakes goes against
> the usual argument for steel over carbon.
>
> On the issue of servicing, I've never worked on disc brakes but surely if
> you avoid hydraulics and stick with cable operated then servicing/repair is
> easy.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Bicycling Magazine redeems itself...a little.

[Patrick Moore]

That's the group I remember; I think the magazine was more interesting back
then.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 8:42 AM, Bernie Burton 
wrote:

> I was a little known member of the Bicycling Magazine editorial health
> board from 1987 to 2001. Ed Pavelka, Fred Matheny, Dr. Ed Burke and the
> entirety of the editorial health board were summarily dismissed at the same
> time.
>
> Dr Bernie Burton
>
> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 10:59 PM, Patrick Moore 
> wrote:
>
>> The editor I have in mind was quite a bit after DeLong and Bertoe; this
>> man was part of the team through the '90s, and among other entries I recall
>> his account of a record breaking - personal or absolute - ride through the
>> up and down terrain of Pennsylvania. He later had a blog, but I forget his
>> name -- aggressive roadie type, but interesting to read while, at the same
>> time, sneering smugly at his racer puritanism. A big man with curly hair,
>> IIRC -- which, given my weakness for remembering names, may not count for
>> much.
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 8:44 PM, George Schick  wrote:
>>
>>> "... Of course, one reason I dumped Bicycling is that most of its
>>> writing was pretty dull, after they dumped their editors -- Bill
>>> Strickland, the aging, raging roadie whose name I forget, and others in the
>>> annum horribilem 2 decades or so ago ..."
>>>
>>> I used to subscribe for a number or years back in the mid-70's, too, and
>>> the tech editor I remember was Fred DeLong.  Not sure if that's who you're
>>> thinking of.  I will say this about mags like Bicycling - special interest
>>> periodicals tend to regurgitate the same old stuff in a cyclical fashion
>>> because how much can you talk about something in a niche, narrow scope
>>> without exhausting the material, doesn't matter if it's golf, fishing,
>>> archery, etc.  So, they tend to pick up new, unfamiliar readers on the
>>> front end and gradually drop the more experienced ones off the back.  It's
>>> a tough business and the new, fresh break throughs are few and far
>>> between.  Which is probably why they went along with the latest and
>>> greatest when all the aluminum, titanium, and CF stuff came along.  But the
>>> great thing about the old, old Bicycling was people like Fred and his
>>> always innovative ways of viewing something, including clever maintenance
>>> and repairs.
>>>
>>>
>>> --
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Patrick Moore]

I read Grant's post yesterday and thought it pretty moderate. He defends
rim brakes, and explains the disadvantages of disk brakes, but he nowhere
says that rim brakes are always better or that disk brakes are never useful.

As far as Grant's assertions go, I agree with him -- most riders, for most
riding, don't need disk brakes, which add unnecessary complication. Perhaps
he could have spelled out in more detail some of the benefits of disks, but
again, his point seems very clearly to be to defend rim brakes -- and he
does so well.

Me, I much prefer disk brakes on dirt, because (1) I can use wide rims that
are very light because they have no braking track (the 30 mm wide Velocity
Blunt SS's are claimed to be the weight of Open Pros -- 430 grams), and (2)
I can buy expensive rims without worrying about wearing them out in a few
years.

One defect of disks that Grant didn't mention is the finickiness, at least
for Avid BB7s with linear pull road levers, of getting the pads close
enough for firm braking while avoiding rub from the inevitable planear
irregularity in the disks. It can be done, and I've done it, but it
*is* finicky.
And at least my BB7s squeak when dusty.

In fact, I plan to replace the mtb BB7s and linear drop bar levers with the
(I hear much improved) road version of the BB7, with old-school Dura Ace
levers.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:02 AM, Mark Reimer  wrote:

> This anti-disc, pro rim-brake argument feels like flogging a dead horse.
> I've ridden more than enough disc brake bikes to know the appeal and
> see/feel firsthand how they surpass rim brakes in so many ways. I'm in no
> way anti-rim brake, in fact I'm usually the odd-man out on rides as the
> only rim-brake guy, still race canti-brake CX bikes, etc etc etc.
>
> Just because rim brakes technically have more mechanical advantage, by way
> of being further from the hub, doesn't mean anything positive or negative
> on its own. Just because disc rotors are close to the hub and require more
> stopping force and frame construction considerations also doesn't mean
> anything positive or negative on it's own. So disc brakes frames need
> stouter construction and re-enforcementand? I find it particularly
> amusing coming from Rivendell, who's frames are not exactly known for being
> built to be light. Yes, discs put large forces on a frame, but who cares?
> That can be mitigated by design. The fact is, while rim brakes work quite
> well in most regular circumstances (dry, warm) discs have better and
> stronger stopping power in lousy conditions than rim brakes will have.
>
> I remember coming down Rainier on my Atlantis while it was drizzling,
> loaded with front panniers and saddle bags. Normally I can lift my rear
> wheel off the ground with the Paul touring canti's, bike unloaded. I was
> coming down at about 60km/h, not a crazy speed on a bike by any means, and
> it took me probably 100 meters to come to a stop. I was shocked, and
> getting ready to jump off my bike into the ditch as I realized I would be
> sailing through the intersection at the bottom of the hill. Wet rims =
> compromised braking. Wet rotors = basically no difference.
>
>
> In winter, when I bring my bike outside into sub-zero temperatures, the
> warm rims melt the snow as I ride. After applying the brakes, that melted
> water is spread nice and evenly across the brake track, which freezes
> shortly after. Many times I've had ZERO braking ability within two blocks
> of leaving because of this issue. Discs don't run through the snow and are
> way less susceptible to this problem.
>
> So basically, rim brakes work wonderfully, in some/most circumstances (If
> I lived in Texas I'd probably never need discs). But disc brakes work just
> as well in those circumstances, and better in the areas rim brakes fall
> short, though require some frame construction considerations to be safe. I
> think most people would agree with that.
>
> So, I fail to understand why any bike manufacturer would refuse to
> consider building a bike with discs. If the drawback of discs are hubs
> popping out of forks (lawyer lips, front-facing drop outs, and through
> axles solved this already), and frame stress (build the frame accordingly,
> like pretty much most frame builders out there are doing now), that seems
> like a pretty paltry price to pay compared to the stated drawbacks of rim
> brakes: possibly popping tubes and crashing form overheated rims (I know a
> guy who had this happen on FLAT ground in Texas heat!), or having little to
> no braking from wet/frozen surfaces, or compromised brakes as a result of
> bent rims seems like an easy call? Disc = your frame needs heavy
> re-enforcement. Rim = it almost always works, but when it doesn't you're in
> for a RUDE surprise. Kinda reminds me of the argument Riv uses against
> Carbon frames - they usually work, but when they fail, they fail
> catastrophically
>
> One of the things i love about the Rivendell brand is championing bic

Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Patrick Moore]

"Couldn't be easier" is, in my experience over 4 bikes with various cable
disk systems, not quite accurate. It's certainly not rocket science, and *once
you find the right method* it is straightforward, but it took me a long
while to find that method.

Sidepulls are easiest. V brakes, at least decent ones, are easy to setup,
as are, slightly less so, wide profile cantis. Low profile cantis are a
pain in the ass, IME. Centerpulls are much like wide profile cantis.
Gauging all this from my own experience

BB7s are about as easy as brakes requiring cable yokes, IME, and easier
than low profiles, at least with drop bar levers.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Mark Reimer  wrote:

> Servicing discs could not be easier. Hydraulic's are a bit more finicky,
> but they're no more difficult to dial in than my Paul canti's are. Changing
> the pads takes 60 seconds. Actually the more I think about it, the more I
> think discs are much easier to setup and service than rim brakes. You just
> have to do it once to catch on.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:56 AM, 'Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> I am a satisfied rim braker. I've never seriously considered riding discs
>> but I can see the attraction in avoiding compromised braking in the wet and
>> annoying mud on rim grinding noises when off road.
>>
>> One big factor that Grant has missed is the wear effect of rim brakes.
>> Sooner or later the rim will need replacing. That means a wheel rebuild
>> which may well lead to getting a new hub at the same time. That's a whole
>> new wheel just because your brakes are worn - quite a waste if you have
>> decent, handbuilt wheels that otherwise would have lasted a long time. On a
>> disc system, you just replace the disc.
>>
>> The related thing is that wear on the rim is hard to detect. You either
>> play it safe or you take it to the limit - which you only reach when your
>> rim is so compromised it blows. Discs are far more transparent. As Mark
>> says above, on this basis Grant's preference for rim brakes goes against
>> the usual argument for steel over carbon.
>>
>> On the issue of servicing, I've never worked on disc brakes but surely if
>> you avoid hydraulics and stick with cable operated then servicing/repair is
>> easy.
>>
>> --
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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Garth]

Mechanics aside . disc brakes are just plain aesthetically 
unappealing :)   I can't use any brake lever I want to either, and you have 
to dish the front wheel stupid stuff like this ... goes on and on.
On this I'm happily a  s n o b !

  I wouldn't expect Riv to add disc brakes any more than I'd expect low 
trail frames. I don't expect Ferrari to make station wagons either ;)  

There's plenty of willing bike manufactures out there for the 
i-this/that/andtheother crowd who has to have the latest thing.  As for wet 
braking performance and wear, they could also just make better rims.  Hark 
! ... there's a novel idea, improve upon what you're already offering.  
 
   What's the big push for discs anyways ?  Follow the money ... always 
follow the money . 

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

I suppose ease of brake setup will vary from person to person. I find
setting up canti's a pain in the butt mostly because of the pad angle
business. Finding the right toe-in for strong braking, no squealing or
shuddering, is a bit of a dark magic for me. I usually do the old 'business
card between the pad and rim' trick, which works most of the time, but is
clumsy and awkward.

Regardless though, ease of setup should be a minor consideration when
choosing the style of brake to run IMO. I'm happy to deal with some
irritating setup now and then if it means my braking will be reliable,
powerful, smooth, etc. Afterall, how often do you need to adjust your
brakes anyway? I say that as a prairie-living cyclist with no hills, so my
brakes may go much longer between adjustment than others...



On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> "Couldn't be easier" is, in my experience over 4 bikes with various cable
> disk systems, not quite accurate. It's certainly not rocket science, and *once
> you find the right method* it is straightforward, but it took me a long
> while to find that method.
>
> Sidepulls are easiest. V brakes, at least decent ones, are easy to setup,
> as are, slightly less so, wide profile cantis. Low profile cantis are a
> pain in the ass, IME. Centerpulls are much like wide profile cantis.
> Gauging all this from my own experience
>
> BB7s are about as easy as brakes requiring cable yokes, IME, and easier
> than low profiles, at least with drop bar levers.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Mark Reimer 
> wrote:
>
>> Servicing discs could not be easier. Hydraulic's are a bit more finicky,
>> but they're no more difficult to dial in than my Paul canti's are. Changing
>> the pads takes 60 seconds. Actually the more I think about it, the more I
>> think discs are much easier to setup and service than rim brakes. You just
>> have to do it once to catch on.
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:56 AM, 'Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I am a satisfied rim braker. I've never seriously considered riding
>>> discs but I can see the attraction in avoiding compromised braking in the
>>> wet and annoying mud on rim grinding noises when off road.
>>>
>>> One big factor that Grant has missed is the wear effect of rim brakes.
>>> Sooner or later the rim will need replacing. That means a wheel rebuild
>>> which may well lead to getting a new hub at the same time. That's a whole
>>> new wheel just because your brakes are worn - quite a waste if you have
>>> decent, handbuilt wheels that otherwise would have lasted a long time. On a
>>> disc system, you just replace the disc.
>>>
>>> The related thing is that wear on the rim is hard to detect. You either
>>> play it safe or you take it to the limit - which you only reach when your
>>> rim is so compromised it blows. Discs are far more transparent. As Mark
>>> says above, on this basis Grant's preference for rim brakes goes against
>>> the usual argument for steel over carbon.
>>>
>>> On the issue of servicing, I've never worked on disc brakes but surely
>>> if you avoid hydraulics and stick with cable operated then servicing/repair
>>> is easy.
>>>
>>> --
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>>> Google Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>>
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>
>
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> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It i

Re: [RBW] Re: Wiring a Spanninga dyno tail light question...

[Patrick Moore]

Anton: please describe in excruciating detail your method of getting
uncooperative wire through such narrow holes and tubes, and out again. I've
done it 3 times (through rack tubes) and each time it was, so to say,
annoying, and each time breakage of the wire was imminent.

In one stubborn case I used a single strand from a brake cable as the lead
wire; the second time, a piece of thin craft wire. Both caused anger and
anxiety in equal measure.

Doubtless you have a more reasonable and effective method? Please share.
Thanks.

Patrick Moore, who is wholly serious in wanting to learn a better method.



On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 9:38 AM, Anton Tutter  wrote:

> The Spanninga wire connector system is not the best, but it's designed to
> be "easy" (for what it's worth).  Yes you only pass bare wire through the
> connector on the back. the little plastic piece is removable, and is used
> to pinch the bare wire ends against terminals inside the taillight. Make
> sure you drill at least a 1/4" hole in the fender for the wire to pass
> through, and de-burr it well. Run the hot wire from the Edelux taillight
> output (which is located on the bottom of the mount) to the taillight and
> insert into either of the two taillight inputs. There is no need to splice
> into the "core" wire that you mention (usually referred to has "hot" or
> "positive".  Then take a short wire that you connect to the rear fender
> stay nearby, or to the taillight's mounting bolt, and insert that into the
> other taillight input. It doesn't matter which one you use, there is no
> polarity. That's your "Ground".
>
> I like to run the taillight wire inside the rolled edge of the fender. I
> use a dremel with a cutting wheel to cut entry and exit holes in the rolled
> edge, then de-burr them. Like this:
>
> 
>
>
> Good luck.
>
> Anton
> velolumino.com
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 6:34:51 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>>
>> Decided to install it on my rear Honjo fender. Running wires from edeluxe
>> II hanging headlight.
>>
>> I have Schmidt SON wiring. I know how to wire it up on the headlight end.
>> My questions are about wiring to the tail light.
>>
>> *Wiring on the Spanninga light side:*
>> 1. After I separate the ground threads from the power core of the Scmidt
>> wire, can I just insert the bare wires into the back of the Spanninga to
>> the contacts, or do I need spades of some kind?
>> It looks like only bare wires can fit through the housing wire holes on
>> the back of the Spanninga housing.
>>
>> 2. Schmidt power core wire goes to Spanninga positive, and the ground to
>> negative? Or no need to connect the ground end on the Spanninga as it will
>> be connected to the headlight mount bolt anyway on the other end?
>>
>> As you can see, I know nothing about the flow of electrons.
>>
>> *Also:*
>> *How did you physically run the wires into the fender? Looks like they
>> will get smushed against the fender when I tighten the Spanninga housing to
>> it.*
>>
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**
**
*The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a
circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and
individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu

*Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the
world revolves.) *Carthusian motto

*It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart

*Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

The big push for discs is because they work better, period. Some people are
happy to have brakes that work 'well enough'. Like I said before, if I
always rode in fair weather, I too wouldn't care about having discs. But if
you ride in snow, rain, wet mud, swampy terrain, etc, it becomes very
obvious, very quickly, how rim brakes fall short.

I agree re: aesthetics. Canti's and centre-pulls look SO good to me. And CX
racing bikes with wide-hanging canti's...so euro-pro!

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Garth  wrote:

>
> Mechanics aside . disc brakes are just plain aesthetically
> unappealing :)   I can't use any brake lever I want to either, and you have
> to dish the front wheel stupid stuff like this ... goes on and on.
> On this I'm happily a  s n o b !
>
>   I wouldn't expect Riv to add disc brakes any more than I'd expect low
> trail frames. I don't expect Ferrari to make station wagons either ;)
>
> There's plenty of willing bike manufactures out there for the
> i-this/that/andtheother crowd who has to have the latest thing.  As for wet
> braking performance and wear, they could also just make better rims.  Hark
> ! ... there's a novel idea, improve upon what you're already offering.
>
>What's the big push for discs anyways ?  Follow the money ... always
> follow the money .
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Steve Palincsar]

On 05/13/2016 12:26 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
I suppose ease of brake setup will vary from person to person. I find 
setting up canti's a pain in the butt mostly because of the pad angle 
business. Finding the right toe-in for strong braking, no squealing or 
shuddering, is a bit of a dark magic for me. I usually do the old 
'business card between the pad and rim' trick, which works most of the 
time, but is clumsy and awkward.


Regardless though, ease of setup should be a minor consideration when 
choosing the style of brake to run IMO. I'm happy to deal with some 
irritating setup now and then if it means my braking will be reliable, 
powerful, smooth, etc. Afterall, how often do you need to adjust your 
brakes anyway? I say that as a prairie-living cyclist with no hills, 
so my brakes may go much longer between adjustment than others...


In which case, rim wear is hardly going to be an issue for you, 
obviating one of the claimed advantages of discs.  I live in the 
Piedmont, and the one rim I managed to wear out due to braking, it took 
me 25 years to do so.


Apropos of "ease of setup," I've seen some disc brake setups that were 
maddening to ride next to on account of constant squeal, even when the 
brakes weren't being applied -- and when they were, the resulting squeal 
was about as piercing and penetrating as an icepick to the ear canal.  
And the claimed ease of braking -- I've ridden one disc brake equipped 
bike (an electric) for maybe a quarter mile.  I found the brakes as 
grabby and binary ON-OFF as V brakes, and about as unpleasant to use.


And then by all means, let's talk about the "Whirling Ginsu Knives of 
Destruction," and the affect on the supposed Inevitability of Disc 
Brakes of recent UCI changes terminating the experiment and banning disc 
brakes from road racing.


I think the claim of "beating a dead horse" is greatly overblown.

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Patrick Moore]

I think I recently posted a link to the remarks of an ex pro who slammed
the marketing and said that the peloton is really no better off with them.

Having ridden cable disks on road many a mile, as well as all the kinds of
rim brakes, I can say confidently that, in my own experience, they don't
add any benefit in dry conditions -- and I've ridden in the wet enough to
know that, at least I, prefer the disadvantages of rim brakes in occasional
wet ("occasional" -- if I rode pavement regularly in the rain, I'd want
disk or drum or coaster) than the complication, weight, and fork-altering
qualities of disks. Again, these are my opinions, but it takes only a
single negative instance to refute a universal affirmation.

The best performing brakes I've ever, ever used were IRD wide profiles with
salmon pads set up with Tektro drop levers by Rivendell -- more power, more
modulation, and best feel of any other. (The worst: a. Mafac cantis, with
salmons, both the regular and longer armed tandem version, pulled seriatim
by Mafac levers and then by Shimano aero levers: nothing I or one shop
could do would make those things work well. Even worse: original issue
*Road* BB7s, even with 180 mm front disk, but these have been greatly
improved, I hear.)

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:30 AM, Mark Reimer  wrote:

> The big push for discs is because they work better, period. Some people
> are happy to have brakes that work 'well enough'. Like I said before, if I
> always rode in fair weather, I too wouldn't care about having discs. But if
> you ride in snow, rain, wet mud, swampy terrain, etc, it becomes very
> obvious, very quickly, how rim brakes fall short.
>
> I agree re: aesthetics. Canti's and centre-pulls look SO good to me. And
> CX racing bikes with wide-hanging canti's...so euro-pro!
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:25 AM, Garth  wrote:
>
>>
>> Mechanics aside . disc brakes are just plain aesthetically
>> unappealing :)   I can't use any brake lever I want to either, and you have
>> to dish the front wheel stupid stuff like this ... goes on and on.
>> On this I'm happily a  s n o b !
>>
>>   I wouldn't expect Riv to add disc brakes any more than I'd expect low
>> trail frames. I don't expect Ferrari to make station wagons either ;)
>>
>> There's plenty of willing bike manufactures out there for the
>> i-this/that/andtheother crowd who has to have the latest thing.  As for wet
>> braking performance and wear, they could also just make better rims.  Hark
>> ! ... there's a novel idea, improve upon what you're already offering.
>>
>>What's the big push for discs anyways ?  Follow the money ... always
>> follow the money .
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

Rim wear is an issue actually. I have worn out rims in under 5 years
easily. Remember the wet, muddy, swampy riding conditions I mentioned? And
add racing CX with sand to the equation? You don't need hills to wear out
rims.

In my personal experience, persistent brake squeal is not restricted to
disc brakes. Just look at the number of people who can't get rid of squeal
on their centre pull brakes. Even the new Compass centre-pulls seem to be
prone to that issue. Watch one CX race and listen to the symphony of rim
brake squeal at the first corner. More often than not, it's user setup
error, or possibly poor pad material.

I've also had disc setups that were madding to ride due to squeal, just
horrible. I was doing a winter ultra a few years back where my rear rotor
squealed the ENTIRE 12 hours. Nobody wanted to ride near me.  In the end,
my pads hadn't been burned in properly, as per the instructions supplied by
Shimano. New pads, proper setup, zero squeal.

My point is, pretty much any brake style can run poorly when not setup
properly, and pretty much all brakes can be made to run silent when
properly set. Just because someone you knew had brakes that wouldn't stop
squealing doesn't mean the whole platform is flawed. The same goes for
forming an opinion of discs based on one ride. I've ridden canti, v-brake
and side pulls that braked horribly. Same with discs. It wasn't the brakes
that sucked, it was the setup.


On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:35 AM, Steve Palincsar  wrote:

>
>
> On 05/13/2016 12:26 PM, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
>> I suppose ease of brake setup will vary from person to person. I find
>> setting up canti's a pain in the butt mostly because of the pad angle
>> business. Finding the right toe-in for strong braking, no squealing or
>> shuddering, is a bit of a dark magic for me. I usually do the old 'business
>> card between the pad and rim' trick, which works most of the time, but is
>> clumsy and awkward.
>>
>> Regardless though, ease of setup should be a minor consideration when
>> choosing the style of brake to run IMO. I'm happy to deal with some
>> irritating setup now and then if it means my braking will be reliable,
>> powerful, smooth, etc. Afterall, how often do you need to adjust your
>> brakes anyway? I say that as a prairie-living cyclist with no hills, so my
>> brakes may go much longer between adjustment than others...
>>
>
> In which case, rim wear is hardly going to be an issue for you, obviating
> one of the claimed advantages of discs.  I live in the Piedmont, and the
> one rim I managed to wear out due to braking, it took me 25 years to do so.
>
> Apropos of "ease of setup," I've seen some disc brake setups that were
> maddening to ride next to on account of constant squeal, even when the
> brakes weren't being applied -- and when they were, the resulting squeal
> was about as piercing and penetrating as an icepick to the ear canal.  And
> the claimed ease of braking -- I've ridden one disc brake equipped bike (an
> electric) for maybe a quarter mile.  I found the brakes as grabby and
> binary ON-OFF as V brakes, and about as unpleasant to use.
>
> And then by all means, let's talk about the "Whirling Ginsu Knives of
> Destruction," and the affect on the supposed Inevitability of Disc Brakes
> of recent UCI changes terminating the experiment and banning disc brakes
> from road racing.
>
> I think the claim of "beating a dead horse" is greatly overblown.
>
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Patrick Moore]

Score:

Rim brakes: 1

Disk brakes: 1

Patrick "likem both" Moore, who was just telling someone he really wants a
bike with drum brakes too, in ABQ, NM.

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Re: [RBW] Carry a Multi-tool or loose tools, and why?

[René Sterental]

+1 for the Topeak Ratchet Tool. So perfect!

I'm evaluating everything else, so far additionally I carry two tubes,
patch kit, 4-6 CO2 cartridges with valve, tire levers and a Swiss Army
knife. Sometimes a small pump but have yet to use it. Seldom puncture in
the Bay Area. Running Compass tires in my Rivendells and on my future
custom and Big Apples on my Bike Friday when I travel. Will be trying the
latex tubes when they arrive next week.

So interesting to see what you prepare for based on the riding you do. Lots
of learning opportunities to increase or decrease the tool sets...

René

On Thursday, May 12, 2016, sameness  wrote:

> Crank Brothers multi-tool, spare tube, coupla tire levers, Presta to
> Schrader adapter, about three bucks in a coin purse, and a clip-on rear
> blinkie. I never find myself too far from civilization.
>
> Jeff Hagedorn
> Los Angeles, CA USA
>
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Re: [RBW] RBW Listers Take Over The West Point Inn, June 24 & 25 - Join us there!!!

[René Sterental]

Wonderful! Enjoy it!

On Friday, May 13, 2016, Hugh Smitham  wrote:

> Working on a route. Off on an Overnight. Details soon.
>
> ~Hugh
>
> ~Hugh
>
> “Life is like riding a bicycle. To keep your balance, you must keep
> moving.” ― Albert Einstein
>
> http://velocipeedemusings.com/
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 3:55 AM, René Sterental  > wrote:
>
>> Are there defined plans for the Saturday ride? Like when to be where, how
>> long and hilly it is, etc.?
>>
>> I'm trying to make plans to show up for that ride, but need to start
>> working on family logistics. And, of course, which bike to bring!
>>
>> René
>>
>> On Thursday, May 12, 2016, cyclotourist > > wrote:
>>
>>> June 24th & 25th... make it happen!
>>>
>>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 7:43 PM, Hugh Smitham 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I like the way you're thinking Mark.
 On May 12, 2016 6:48 PM, "'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch" <
 rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> That's very funny, same thing happens to me every time I see this
> post. Beacon is just a few miles north of the academy,  on the other side
> of the Hudson River. I think we have enough of a Hudson Valley contingent,
> plus NYC Bobs are only a train ride away. Wait, getting my lists confused.
> Anyway, enough RBW/BoBs whatevers to do, if not a full on sleepover, at
> least a sympatico East Coast Rivish Ride that weekend. If we get real
> ambitious, we could end up here:
>
> http://www.thewestpointmotel.com/
>
> Not quite the renowned rep of the West Point Inn, but hey, we New
> Yorkers can roll with it.
>
> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 8:32:52 PM UTC-4, cyclot...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>>
>> I bet you could put on a pretty good ride along the Hudson!!! Even
>> get some cross-continental pollination!
>>
>> On Thu, May 12, 2016 at 5:29 PM, LLM  wrote:
>>
>>> This sounds like fun.  I'm new here (with a dark mustard Clem
>>> L-Style on order).  I also live in NY, not too far from the West Point
>>> Military Academy.  For a few minutes, I was envisioning a venue near the
>>> Hudson River and figuring out how I might attend.  How disappointing!
>>> Linda M.
>>>
>>> --
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>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Cheers,
>> David
>>
>> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>>
>> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
>>
>>
>>
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>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Cheers,
>>> David
>>>
>>> Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace
>>>
>>> "it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [RBW] WTB: Brown or Honey B17

[René Sterental]

I think I do. I'm traveling now but will check my photos. Preparing a lot
of stuff for sale...

René

On Tuesday, May 10, 2016, Eric Norris  wrote:

> Used is OK. Larger rivets preferred, but not required. Anybody got one?
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com 
> www.campyonly.com
> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
>
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Re: [RBW] WTB: Brown or Honey B17

[René Sterental]

I have a special with Tiranium rails, I believe.

René

On Friday, May 13, 2016, René Sterental  wrote:

> I think I do. I'm traveling now but will check my photos. Preparing a lot
> of stuff for sale...
>
> René
>
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2016, Eric Norris  > wrote:
>
>> Used is OK. Larger rivets preferred, but not required. Anybody got one?
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyonly...@me.com
>> www.campyonly.com
>> campyonlyguy.blogspot.com
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

I want to be clear that I DON'T think everyone needs or should ride discs.
I'm simply saying that in certain circumstances they work better than rim
brakes, and as a result have a valuable place in cycling. What works for
you may not work for others, that kinda thing. I love rim brakes. I also
love disc brakes.

What irks me is that Grant seems to write discs off entirely, suggesting
rim brakes are adequate enough for all circumstances. Maybe they're
adequate for his riding, or for most Rivendell riders' riding, I can't
really say. Perhaps he will elaborate more. But if that was the case, then
fine! Just say that the kind of riding Rivendell customers tend to do
doesn't warrant pursuing the advantages/disadvantages disc brakes provide.

All the other traditional approaches Riv takes I can agree with: 1" steer
tube and quill stems - is there a significant benefit to tapered head tubes
and threadless? Not really...

Press fit BB over threaded square taper? Not really...

Carbon fibre? Certainly not...

But braking? Who doesn't want brakes that work well in all circumstances,
rather than just in most.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:47 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Score:
>
> Rim brakes: 1
>
> Disk brakes: 1
>
> Patrick "likem both" Moore, who was just telling someone he really wants a
> bike with drum brakes too, in ABQ, NM.
>
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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Philip Kim]

I tend to agree Mark. Although I don't know a lot of people who ride in 
such conditions as you do. Paul touring cantis have been usually great, 
even in the rain. But with a good load on the bike, in the rain going 
downhill, rim brakes I can it  quickly getting dicey. One of the many 
reasons I decided to put myself on the NFE list.

I think generally-speaking, bike manufacturers seem to slap disc brakes on 
everything to market it more versatile, but can't bother to add proper rack 
brazeons. And a lot of mid-level completes don't have quality disc brakes, 
and wheels are not true.

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 11:02:38 AM UTC-4, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> This anti-disc, pro rim-brake argument feels like flogging a dead horse. 
> I've ridden more than enough disc brake bikes to know the appeal and 
> see/feel firsthand how they surpass rim brakes in so many ways. I'm in no 
> way anti-rim brake, in fact I'm usually the odd-man out on rides as the 
> only rim-brake guy, still race canti-brake CX bikes, etc etc etc. 
>
> Just because rim brakes technically have more mechanical advantage, by way 
> of being further from the hub, doesn't mean anything positive or negative 
> on its own. Just because disc rotors are close to the hub and require more 
> stopping force and frame construction considerations also doesn't mean 
> anything positive or negative on it's own. So disc brakes frames need 
> stouter construction and re-enforcementand? I find it particularly 
> amusing coming from Rivendell, who's frames are not exactly known for being 
> built to be light. Yes, discs put large forces on a frame, but who cares? 
> That can be mitigated by design. The fact is, while rim brakes work quite 
> well in most regular circumstances (dry, warm) discs have better and 
> stronger stopping power in lousy conditions than rim brakes will have. 
>
> I remember coming down Rainier on my Atlantis while it was drizzling, 
> loaded with front panniers and saddle bags. Normally I can lift my rear 
> wheel off the ground with the Paul touring canti's, bike unloaded. I was 
> coming down at about 60km/h, not a crazy speed on a bike by any means, and 
> it took me probably 100 meters to come to a stop. I was shocked, and 
> getting ready to jump off my bike into the ditch as I realized I would be 
> sailing through the intersection at the bottom of the hill. Wet rims = 
> compromised braking. Wet rotors = basically no difference. 
>
>
> In winter, when I bring my bike outside into sub-zero temperatures, the 
> warm rims melt the snow as I ride. After applying the brakes, that melted 
> water is spread nice and evenly across the brake track, which freezes 
> shortly after. Many times I've had ZERO braking ability within two blocks 
> of leaving because of this issue. Discs don't run through the snow and are 
> way less susceptible to this problem.
>
> So basically, rim brakes work wonderfully, in some/most circumstances (If 
> I lived in Texas I'd probably never need discs). But disc brakes work just 
> as well in those circumstances, and better in the areas rim brakes fall 
> short, though require some frame construction considerations to be safe. I 
> think most people would agree with that. 
>
> So, I fail to understand why any bike manufacturer would refuse to 
> consider building a bike with discs. If the drawback of discs are hubs 
> popping out of forks (lawyer lips, front-facing drop outs, and through 
> axles solved this already), and frame stress (build the frame accordingly, 
> like pretty much most frame builders out there are doing now), that seems 
> like a pretty paltry price to pay compared to the stated drawbacks of rim 
> brakes: possibly popping tubes and crashing form overheated rims (I know a 
> guy who had this happen on FLAT ground in Texas heat!), or having little to 
> no braking from wet/frozen surfaces, or compromised brakes as a result of 
> bent rims seems like an easy call? Disc = your frame needs heavy 
> re-enforcement. Rim = it almost always works, but when it doesn't you're in 
> for a RUDE surprise. Kinda reminds me of the argument Riv uses against 
> Carbon frames - they usually work, but when they fail, they fail 
> catastrophically 
>
> One of the things i love about the Rivendell brand is championing bicycle 
> design that just works, stuff that makes sense and is no-nonsense. To me, 
> that is exactly what disc brakes are. I think that is why this debate irks 
> me (can you tell LOL), because I agree with pretty much all 
> Grant/Rivendell's opinions except this one. I love my Atlantis, most of the 
> time have no complaints about it's braking abilities, love the look of 
> canti's more than any other braking system, and will continue to have rim 
> brake bikes in the future I'm sure. But man... A disc option of this bike? 
> Or a disc Hunq? I'd be over the moon for that. 
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:19:47 AM UTC-5, Will wrote:
>>
>> Might be nice to push back to GP and encour

Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Scott Henry]

Brakes are important.   Whatever type you have on your bike, make sure they
work well.Pick the type that will work for you and the riding that you
do.
For me, my next frame will be a disc road.

Grant is an excellent writer who designs very pretty bicycles.He writes
wonderfully and can extol the virtues of whatever products that his site is
offering.
It's called sales and marketing.




On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:02 PM, drew  wrote:

> im no scientist, and ive never used disc brakes, but the argument that the
> stopping force near the hub is too extreme doesnt really work in my head,
> as long as modulation is in play. i would understand it, if he is talking
> about locking up the wheel on a regular basis, but assuming that's not the
> case and you are just trying to slow down normally, is there any real risk
> to the frame?
>
> anyway, i like rim brakes. i like the way they look. i know how to put
> them together and take them apart. ill probably never need or want a disc
> brake bike.  i don't ride in the rain or mud very much here in CA, but when
> i do, stopping can get scary. i can see someone wanting a better option for
> that type of riding...which isnt really fringe riding for a lot of the
> world.
>
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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[drew]

im no scientist, and ive never used disc brakes, but the argument that the 
stopping force near the hub is too extreme doesnt really work in my head, 
as long as modulation is in play. i would understand it, if he is talking 
about locking up the wheel on a regular basis, but assuming that's not the 
case and you are just trying to slow down normally, is there any real risk 
to the frame?

anyway, i like rim brakes. i like the way they look. i know how to put them 
together and take them apart. ill probably never need or want a disc brake 
bike.  i don't ride in the rain or mud very much here in CA, but when i do, 
stopping can get scary. i can see someone wanting a better option for that 
type of riding...which isnt really fringe riding for a lot of the world. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Patrick Moore]

I think Grant was referring to the danger of this force bending a fork that
is not sufficiently stout - ie, designed for disk braking, and, second, the
danger of this force pushing the axle out of the dropouts. I've heard that
drum brakes too can crumple an insufficiently stout fork, and seen photos
of fork legs so crumpled.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:02 AM, drew  wrote:

> im no scientist, and ive never used disc brakes, but the argument that the
> stopping force near the hub is too extreme doesnt really work in my head,
>

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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Sky Coulter]

Mark, 
You make a good case for the virtues of disc brakes, just as Grant did for 
rim brakes.  I've found both points of view and arguments/examples 
illuminating.  I think this kind of cordial disagreement represents the 
best of online discussion -- it offers up more information for those of us 
who silently spectate without becoming hostile or unreasonable.  It's 
exactly what I like about this forum.

Thanks,

Sky in New West

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 8:02:38 AM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> This anti-disc, pro rim-brake argument feels like flogging a dead horse. 
> I've ridden more than enough disc brake bikes to know the appeal and 
> see/feel firsthand how they surpass rim brakes in so many ways. I'm in no 
> way anti-rim brake, in fact I'm usually the odd-man out on rides as the 
> only rim-brake guy, still race canti-brake CX bikes, etc etc etc. 
>
> Just because rim brakes technically have more mechanical advantage, by way 
> of being further from the hub, doesn't mean anything positive or negative 
> on its own. Just because disc rotors are close to the hub and require more 
> stopping force and frame construction considerations also doesn't mean 
> anything positive or negative on it's own. So disc brakes frames need 
> stouter construction and re-enforcementand? I find it particularly 
> amusing coming from Rivendell, who's frames are not exactly known for being 
> built to be light. Yes, discs put large forces on a frame, but who cares? 
> That can be mitigated by design. The fact is, while rim brakes work quite 
> well in most regular circumstances (dry, warm) discs have better and 
> stronger stopping power in lousy conditions than rim brakes will have. 
>
> I remember coming down Rainier on my Atlantis while it was drizzling, 
> loaded with front panniers and saddle bags. Normally I can lift my rear 
> wheel off the ground with the Paul touring canti's, bike unloaded. I was 
> coming down at about 60km/h, not a crazy speed on a bike by any means, and 
> it took me probably 100 meters to come to a stop. I was shocked, and 
> getting ready to jump off my bike into the ditch as I realized I would be 
> sailing through the intersection at the bottom of the hill. Wet rims = 
> compromised braking. Wet rotors = basically no difference. 
>
>
> In winter, when I bring my bike outside into sub-zero temperatures, the 
> warm rims melt the snow as I ride. After applying the brakes, that melted 
> water is spread nice and evenly across the brake track, which freezes 
> shortly after. Many times I've had ZERO braking ability within two blocks 
> of leaving because of this issue. Discs don't run through the snow and are 
> way less susceptible to this problem.
>
> So basically, rim brakes work wonderfully, in some/most circumstances (If 
> I lived in Texas I'd probably never need discs). But disc brakes work just 
> as well in those circumstances, and better in the areas rim brakes fall 
> short, though require some frame construction considerations to be safe. I 
> think most people would agree with that. 
>
> So, I fail to understand why any bike manufacturer would refuse to 
> consider building a bike with discs. If the drawback of discs are hubs 
> popping out of forks (lawyer lips, front-facing drop outs, and through 
> axles solved this already), and frame stress (build the frame accordingly, 
> like pretty much most frame builders out there are doing now), that seems 
> like a pretty paltry price to pay compared to the stated drawbacks of rim 
> brakes: possibly popping tubes and crashing form overheated rims (I know a 
> guy who had this happen on FLAT ground in Texas heat!), or having little to 
> no braking from wet/frozen surfaces, or compromised brakes as a result of 
> bent rims seems like an easy call? Disc = your frame needs heavy 
> re-enforcement. Rim = it almost always works, but when it doesn't you're in 
> for a RUDE surprise. Kinda reminds me of the argument Riv uses against 
> Carbon frames - they usually work, but when they fail, they fail 
> catastrophically 
>
> One of the things i love about the Rivendell brand is championing bicycle 
> design that just works, stuff that makes sense and is no-nonsense. To me, 
> that is exactly what disc brakes are. I think that is why this debate irks 
> me (can you tell LOL), because I agree with pretty much all 
> Grant/Rivendell's opinions except this one. I love my Atlantis, most of the 
> time have no complaints about it's braking abilities, love the look of 
> canti's more than any other braking system, and will continue to have rim 
> brake bikes in the future I'm sure. But man... A disc option of this bike? 
> Or a disc Hunq? I'd be over the moon for that. 
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:19:47 AM UTC-5, Will wrote:
>>
>> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[John Phillips]

It almost sounds to me like Grant is arguing with himself inside his own 
noggin over adding disc brakes to his line up. Or was this started by 
customers?  

As I was reading, I thought to myself, "Ok, my Hunqapillar is a touring 
bike rated to carrying a load up to 360lbs, we (Riv & I) live in the East 
bay hills & near the Sierras, Grant advocates fenders for riding in all 
weather, so...why not build a touring bike with disc brakes?"

Are customers or would-be customers pestering Grant over his choice of 
brakes?

John (Happy w/ my Cant's) Phillips

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 7:19:47 AM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>
> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Peter White]

I bent the left blade of a Reynolds 531 fork on my touring bike around 1980
or so using a Phil Wood disc brake. Fork blades for disc brakes must be a
lot stiffer than they need to be for rim brakes.

By the way, I then fitted the disc brake to my Raleigh Pro track bike and
it worked just dandily for quite a few years.

Peter White

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 1:18 PM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> I think Grant was referring to the danger of this force bending a fork
> that is not sufficiently stout - ie, designed for disk braking, and,
> second, the danger of this force pushing the axle out of the dropouts. I've
> heard that drum brakes too can crumple an insufficiently stout fork, and
> seen photos of fork legs so crumpled.
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:02 AM, drew  wrote:
>
>> im no scientist, and ive never used disc brakes, but the argument that
>> the stopping force near the hub is too extreme doesnt really work in my
>> head,
>>
> --
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-- 
Peter White

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[dougP]

And the wheel goes around & around 

Doug p

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[RBW] Re: Riv's love child - new build

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Very nice build; it looks great!

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[RBW] Clementine build question

[Joe Bernard]

Maybe chase the shell? I've had different BBs fit looser and tighter in the 
same shell, so maybe you just need to clean those threads up a bit. It might 
also be a good idea to try the Phil in another frame to confirm you have the 
correct cups. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mark Reimer]

Sky - thanks, that was my hope. Lively debate is good. I don't care at all
if no one decides to try disc brakes as a result of this thread. But I do
hope readers will have a better understanding of when and where discs are
an advantage.

I've never had a problem braking in the mountains on my side-pull rim brake
road bike. Even in the rain. If you read what all the road pros are saying
now - none of them want stronger brakes, they want better tire traction!
Nobody seems to want discs in the peloton other than the bike
manufacturers. Even guys like ryder hesjedal, who comes from the world of
mountain biking and disc brakes, doesn't want them anywhere near him. All
this is to indicate that there is a time and place for one style over the
other.

Rivendell/Grant often talk about how there is a lot of overlap designed
into their bikes - you can take an Atlantis on a cross country paved tour,
but can also throw some fat knobbies on and go ride trails. I love riding
mine on mountain bike trails!  Next to how beautiful it looks, versatility
is one of my favourite things about my Atlantis.

The braking issue is where that versatility kinda falls apart for me. I'm
sure rim brakes work superbly in Walnut Creek, but there are Rivendell
owners riding all over the world. Someone earlier said that a lot of people
aren't riding their bikes in the conditions I am. I wonder... I suspect
that Rivendell riders who live in warm, dry, sunny conditions year round
might be the minority. Anyone in the pacific northwest, Canada, New
England, anywhere it snows or rains a lot, will face the same rim-brake
challenges I outlined.

Rivendell definitely does not owe it to anyone to make a bike that has disc
brakes. If Grant doesn't want to, that's just fine. They make bikes that
are very well suited to where they're from, and work for the rest of us
most of the time too. But with a brand known for designing bikes that 'just
work', I find it odd that Grant is so adamantly against a brake technology
that does just that in a broader range of conditions.


Anyway, I think my point is made and then some. I'll keep riding my
Atlantis more and more. But based on my experience riding in Washington and
Oregon last year, I have decided to leave it at home this summer when I
ride the divide trail, in favour of a bike with discs and even fatter
tires.


Enjoy the ride :)




On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 12:19 PM, Sky Coulter 
wrote:

> Mark,
> You make a good case for the virtues of disc brakes, just as Grant did for
> rim brakes.  I've found both points of view and arguments/examples
> illuminating.  I think this kind of cordial disagreement represents the
> best of online discussion -- it offers up more information for those of us
> who silently spectate without becoming hostile or unreasonable.  It's
> exactly what I like about this forum.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Sky in New West
>
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 8:02:38 AM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>>
>> This anti-disc, pro rim-brake argument feels like flogging a dead horse.
>> I've ridden more than enough disc brake bikes to know the appeal and
>> see/feel firsthand how they surpass rim brakes in so many ways. I'm in no
>> way anti-rim brake, in fact I'm usually the odd-man out on rides as the
>> only rim-brake guy, still race canti-brake CX bikes, etc etc etc.
>>
>> Just because rim brakes technically have more mechanical advantage, by
>> way of being further from the hub, doesn't mean anything positive or
>> negative on its own. Just because disc rotors are close to the hub and
>> require more stopping force and frame construction considerations also
>> doesn't mean anything positive or negative on it's own. So disc brakes
>> frames need stouter construction and re-enforcementand? I find it
>> particularly amusing coming from Rivendell, who's frames are not exactly
>> known for being built to be light. Yes, discs put large forces on a frame,
>> but who cares? That can be mitigated by design. The fact is, while rim
>> brakes work quite well in most regular circumstances (dry, warm) discs have
>> better and stronger stopping power in lousy conditions than rim brakes will
>> have.
>>
>> I remember coming down Rainier on my Atlantis while it was drizzling,
>> loaded with front panniers and saddle bags. Normally I can lift my rear
>> wheel off the ground with the Paul touring canti's, bike unloaded. I was
>> coming down at about 60km/h, not a crazy speed on a bike by any means, and
>> it took me probably 100 meters to come to a stop. I was shocked, and
>> getting ready to jump off my bike into the ditch as I realized I would be
>> sailing through the intersection at the bottom of the hill. Wet rims =
>> compromised braking. Wet rotors = basically no difference.
>>
>>
>> In winter, when I bring my bike outside into sub-zero temperatures, the
>> warm rims melt the snow as I ride. After applying the brakes, that melted
>> water is spread nice and evenly across the brake track, which freezes
>> shortly after. 

[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Philip Kim]

Maybe Grant is frustrated with the lack of questioning and reflection when 
it comes to the type of brakes needed for riding. You can't just slap disc 
tabs on Riv bikes and call it a day, you have to design a bike entirely 
around discs, new drop outs for curved fork blades, thicker fork blades, 
reinforcement at the stays, etc. He already doesn't like lawyer tabs.

I think Grant designs what type of bike he wants first and designing around 
that. I remember about him refusing to put canti posts for awhile on AHH 
because the seatstays he chose were not designed to withhold the brake 
forces of cantis. 

Of course this is all speculation, but Grant does advocate for 
accessibility of riding and getting more people to ride bikes - not just 
bike enthusiasts. And he may view rim brakes capable for a vast majority of 
riding a vast majority of people do, but the disc brake enthusiasts along 
with bike industry marketing are luring people/customers to think disc 
brakes are a necessity.

I've read a few comments on some websites/forums like: "beautiful, but wish 
it were disc brake...", which may seem dismissive or not showing 
acknowledgment that Grant designed the bike for a specific purpose. I bet 
he probably gets a number of people call or walk in who are looking into 
biking more "seriously" and are looking for disc brake bikes as a 
pre-requisite.

This is all speculation because I am not Grant, nor do i reside in his 
mind. But trying to picture what it would be like to own a business selling 
great bikes and advocating more people on bikes, only to be dismissed over 
disc brakes. Even Rivendell's "stout" frames are pretty lively over 
something like a Surley Straggler.

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 1:24:32 PM UTC-4, John Phillips wrote:
>
> It almost sounds to me like Grant is arguing with himself inside his own 
> noggin over adding disc brakes to his line up. Or was this started by 
> customers?  
>
> As I was reading, I thought to myself, "Ok, my Hunqapillar is a touring 
> bike rated to carrying a load up to 360lbs, we (Riv & I) live in the East 
> bay hills & near the Sierras, Grant advocates fenders for riding in all 
> weather, so...why not build a touring bike with disc brakes?"
>
> Are customers or would-be customers pestering Grant over his choice of 
> brakes?
>
> John (Happy w/ my Cant's) Phillips
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 7:19:47 AM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>>
>> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>>
>

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RE: [RBW] Clementine build question

[Allingham II, Thomas J. (Retired Partner)]

Trying the cups in a different frame is a good idea -- I'm off to my shop to do 
that now, and will report.

-Original Message-
From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Joe Bernard
Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 1:53 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: [RBW] Clementine build question

Maybe chase the shell? I've had different BBs fit looser and tighter in the 
same shell, so maybe you just need to clean those threads up a bit. It might 
also be a good idea to try the Phil in another frame to confirm you have the 
correct cups.

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The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden Arps and is not 
performing legal service on behalf of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP 
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[RBW] FS: Tubes, ST Rubber hood Grips, 2 FW's.

[Joel Stern]

brand new 13-18 Sachs Freewheel

Used but very good Suntour 13-26 FW

Suntour Hood Rubber grips (for drop mounted bars), NEW

4X Forte 26 1.1-1.4 tubes (in boxes)

Kendra 26 1/1.25 in box

Blackburn 700/20-28 in box

loose with elastic still around it Blackburn, thin no box, all I can see, 
believe it is a 700 up to 28

Shipping would have to be in a flat rate B box or Medium, so about $13.50

Make me an offer that is fair to both of us, I would like to sell all at 
one time...

thanks

Joel

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[RBW] Parts for Sale - Shimano, Tektro, Baggins, etc.

[Kieran J]

Hi Group,

I have a few items here for sale. Prices include shipping. Let me know if 
you need pics of anything.

   - Deore LX FD-M571 front derailleur. 28.6 clamp, top pull. Brand new, 
   never used. $20
   - Shimano Deore DX crank arms. 175mm length. 110/74 BCD triple. 
   Tarnished but no damage. Should polish up nicely. $40
   - Ritchey Force Lite (Nitto) 1 1/8” threadless stem. 130mm length, 
   25.4mm clamp. Mint. $30
   - Vittoria Zaffiro Pro II 700x32 tires (pair). Blackwall. Excellent 
   shape, low miles. $40
   - On-One Mary bars. 645mm width, 25.4mm clamp. Silver. Great condition. 
   $40
   - Shimano Deore XT RD-M772 rear derailleur. Excellent. $45
   - Tektro FL-540 caliper/canti brake levers. Polished silver. Mint. $25
   - Rivendell Baggins banana bag. Olive green (I think). Very nice 
   overall. $45

Kieran
Toronto, Canada

>

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[RBW] Re: Bicycling Magazine redeems itself...a little.

['pb' via RBW Owners Bunch]

On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 2:15:33 PM UTC-7, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:
>
> I'm 57 and been biking since I was a little girl. Interpret that as you 
> will



Huh?  Wouldn't it be more enlightening if you were to try to report on what 
has motivated the changes in your tastes?  

At 59 I find that I value comfort and stability more than I did as a 
20-year-old racer, just because I want to relax.  I find that my neck isn't 
as flexible, and I need to run my bars higher.  My tastes were very 
different at 25.

~pb 

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[RBW] Re: Bicycling Magazine redeems itself...a little.

[Chris Birkenmaier]

You asked how long I had been biking so I basically told you most of my 
life - since perhaps 5 years old.  Not easy for a women to say her age in 
an open forum but I did. :)   I'm very flexible if that is what you are 
getting at so it's not like I can't ride a road bike if I wanted/preferred 
to with drop bars.  I guess you can say its an evolution but I'm not sure 
I'd contribute it to physical issues.  More riding for exercise and 
enjoyment - which is actually what I was doing in my 20's.

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 3:25:49 PM UTC-4, pb wrote:
>
>
> On Thursday, May 12, 2016 at 2:15:33 PM UTC-7, Chris Birkenmaier wrote:
>>
>> I'm 57 and been biking since I was a little girl. Interpret that as you 
>> will
>
>
>
> Huh?  Wouldn't it be more enlightening if you were to try to report 
> on what has motivated the changes in your tastes?  
>
> At 59 I find that I value comfort and stability more than I did as a 
> 20-year-old racer, just because I want to relax.  I find that my neck isn't 
> as flexible, and I need to run my bars higher.  My tastes were very 
> different at 25.
>
> ~pb 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Bill Lindsay]

I disagree that Grant's BLUG post is against disc brakes at all, much less 
adamantly against them.  My summary of Grant's BLUG post is:

- Rim brakes are adequate for most applications, and get a bad rap from the 
majority of the bicycle world in 2016
- Disc brakes are better, but most riding applications don't require them
- Rim brakes have three things wrong with them, and we're stuck with them
- Disc brakes have two things wrong with them, but both of those problems 
have been solved
- The bike of the future won't be mechanically understood by riders as well 
as the bikes of the past were, and that's kind of a bummer

Note that the forthcoming Rivendell tandem will have at least one disc 
brake. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Daniel D.]

I like your summary better than I like grant's post :p

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 1:09:29 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I disagree that Grant's BLUG post is against disc brakes at all, much less 
> adamantly against them.  My summary of Grant's BLUG post is:
>
> - Rim brakes are adequate for most applications, and get a bad rap from 
> the majority of the bicycle world in 2016
> - Disc brakes are better, but most riding applications don't require them
> - Rim brakes have three things wrong with them, and we're stuck with them
> - Disc brakes have two things wrong with them, but both of those problems 
> have been solved
> - The bike of the future won't be mechanically understood by riders as 
> well as the bikes of the past were, and that's kind of a bummer
>
> Note that the forthcoming Rivendell tandem will have at least one disc 
> brake. 
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] FS: Acorn saddlebag medium

[Joe Bernard]

Nice shape, all straps including to strap a jacket on top, tan, one small 
raspberry-looking splotch on the light-clip strap, $75 shipped.

Email or text 415-786-4623 for pics
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Of course to some extent Grant's writing is designed to help his business. 
But I would not really categorize a 1,000-word essay about rim vs disc on 
his Blug as sales and marketing. 

For me, there were two key points in his post. First, he writes about the 
changes necessary in the frame when spec'ing disc brakes:

Disc brakes in action also focus stress onto seat stays and fork blades, 
> which can then buckle. Frame manufacturers address this with more mass, 
> which brings up kind of a namby-pamby philosophical question: *Which is 
> better— a mechanical system that localizes stress on a small area, then 
> bullies it into submission with bulk and beef, or one that minimizes stress 
> and spreads it out? *
>

While the question might appear at first to be weak or pointless, if you 
follow the logic you can end up in a potentially disturbing place. Here is 
where you start down the road of added complexity, and need to ask what 
does the ledger read after all is said and done.

One of the reasons I love bicycles so much is because of the simple 
elegance inherent in a machine that interfaces so well with the human body. 
This aesthetics/function balance is the reason several posters mention the 
beauty of wide profile cantis on euro CX bicycles. When you subsequently 
take one element (brake calipers) and redesign it, only to find that you 
must now rethink the major element (frame/fork), you begin to upset that 
balance and corrupt that simplicity. As Petersen then writes:

Ultimately, you can expect the bicycle of the immediate future to become 
> more of a high tech black box, with cables being replaced by hydraulics, 
> and the visible levers and pulleys and other simple machines that combine 
> into bicycle magic being hidden or replaced by electronics. The bicycle of 
> the future will, absolutely, be shrouded in mystery and sold on reputation 
> and faith, like a Samsung flat-screen TV.
>

My view is that the world's economies will be pretty much wrecked before 
this Samsung-ization of bicycles can be completed, though certainly the 
process is under way. Despite my pessimism in the realm of global 
economics, I am interested in this line of thought, and the next post in my 
ongoing Clementine review is about this larger philosophical issue; 
specifically, the bicycle as the epitome of what Ivan Illich called tools 
for conviviality. The bicycle will always be a more convivial tool than a 
car or a bomb, but within the category there are also levels of 
conviviality. My take is that the rim/disc debate is a bulwark in the 
continued erosion of the bicycle's core conviviality. Which as I said I 
hope to at least partially explain in the next installment of My Clementine.

P.S.: I consider my Clementine to be more than just another very pretty 
bicycle designed by an excellent writer. Way more. And it doesn't even have 
lugs!
 
On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 1:08:12 PM UTC-4, Skenry wrote:
>
>
> Grant is an excellent writer who designs very pretty bicycles.He 
> writes wonderfully and can extol the virtues of whatever products that his 
> site is offering.   
> It's called sales and marketing.   
>
>  

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[RBW] Re: Wiring a Spanninga dyno tail light question...

[Lungimsam]

Thanks Anton,

The 1/4 inch hole for the wires is in *addition t*o the two mounting holes 
that need to be drilled for the Pixeo light?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Carry a Multi-tool or loose tools, and why?

[Daniel D.]

I'd rather walk the 9 miles when the 100 year storm of bike failures occurs 
than constantly lug around the tools to deal with it.  Items I carry every 
ride. Medium sized Multi-tool, 1 tubes, patch kit, tire levers, pump, 
master link, presta/schraeder adapter, and two spare spokes that came 
installed on the bike.  Of course, the more epic(:p) the ride the more 
items added to the list.  In the past only needed allen/torx wrenches and 
flat repair items (knock on wood).


On Wednesday, May 11, 2016 at 1:51:20 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> walking 9 miles with a bike is also how to spoil a good ride (I actually 
> didn't list everything I carry, I was mostly addressing the small tools 
> question and didn't get into chains and flats)
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Mike in WA]

Mark, I fully agree with your points on the benefits of disc brakes and 
also that not all riding conditions are as idealized for rim braking as 
Northern CA. I switched to a Jones because I found Jeff's goals in building 
a bike more appealing to me than Grant's goals, and I feel the Jones Plus 
is a prime example of a bike that has disc brakes because they make sense 
for the application and discs make everything easier, in my experience. I 
have Avid BB7's and a complete set with Levers from Germany cost about $100 
and they've never had any issue. Adjustment is super simple, just have to 
adjust the calipers with a torque wrench as the pads wear and there's 
hardly ever a need to mess with them. I DO NOT miss having to buy a new 
$100 rim every few years as sidewalls wear down either. The pads last about 
a year and take less than a minute to change. 

 Overall I have found discs to be much easier to use and adjust in practice 
than v-brakes ever were. The Jones Truss fork design makes for a fork that 
can well withstand high braking forces and is also low-trail because of the 
large rake on the fork. This sold me on the bike because it showed that 
frame design for disc bikes could be elegant too. I also have zero brake 
judder which was always a problem on my V-braked Sam. 

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 9:27:03 AM UTC-7, Mark Reimer wrote:
>
> I suppose ease of brake setup will vary from person to person. I find 
> setting up canti's a pain in the butt mostly because of the pad angle 
> business. Finding the right toe-in for strong braking, no squealing or 
> shuddering, is a bit of a dark magic for me. I usually do the old 'business 
> card between the pad and rim' trick, which works most of the time, but is 
> clumsy and awkward.
>
> Regardless though, ease of setup should be a minor consideration when 
> choosing the style of brake to run IMO. I'm happy to deal with some 
> irritating setup now and then if it means my braking will be reliable, 
> powerful, smooth, etc. Afterall, how often do you need to adjust your 
> brakes anyway? I say that as a prairie-living cyclist with no hills, so my 
> brakes may go much longer between adjustment than others...
>
>
>
> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 11:19 AM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> "Couldn't be easier" is, in my experience over 4 bikes with various cable 
>> disk systems, not quite accurate. It's certainly not rocket science, and 
>> *once 
>> you find the right method* it is straightforward, but it took me a long 
>> while to find that method.
>>
>> Sidepulls are easiest. V brakes, at least decent ones, are easy to setup, 
>> as are, slightly less so, wide profile cantis. Low profile cantis are a 
>> pain in the ass, IME. Centerpulls are much like wide profile cantis. 
>> Gauging all this from my own experience
>>
>> BB7s are about as easy as brakes requiring cable yokes, IME, and easier 
>> than low profiles, at least with drop bar levers.
>>
>> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:02 AM, Mark Reimer > > wrote:
>>
>>> Servicing discs could not be easier. Hydraulic's are a bit more finicky, 
>>> but they're no more difficult to dial in than my Paul canti's are. Changing 
>>> the pads takes 60 seconds. Actually the more I think about it, the more I 
>>> think discs are much easier to setup and service than rim brakes. You just 
>>> have to do it once to catch on. 
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 10:56 AM, 'Stephen Kemp' via RBW Owners Bunch <
>>> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>>>
 I am a satisfied rim braker. I've never seriously considered riding 
 discs but I can see the attraction in avoiding compromised braking in the 
 wet and annoying mud on rim grinding noises when off road.

 One big factor that Grant has missed is the wear effect of rim brakes. 
 Sooner or later the rim will need replacing. That means a wheel rebuild 
 which may well lead to getting a new hub at the same time. That's a whole 
 new wheel just because your brakes are worn - quite a waste if you have 
 decent, handbuilt wheels that otherwise would have lasted a long time. On 
 a 
 disc system, you just replace the disc.

 The related thing is that wear on the rim is hard to detect. You either 
 play it safe or you take it to the limit - which you only reach when your 
 rim is so compromised it blows. Discs are far more transparent. As Mark 
 says above, on this basis Grant's preference for rim brakes goes against 
 the usual argument for steel over carbon.

 On the issue of servicing, I've never worked on disc brakes but surely 
 if you avoid hydraulics and stick with cable operated then 
 servicing/repair 
 is easy.

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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I am puzzled as to how you concluded Grant thinks disc brakes are "better." 
That is a vague term in the best of scenarios; given the various points and 
counterpoints brought up in the post, it seems more your preconceived 
conclusion than Petersen's opinion in the piece. "Disc brakes are fine, but 
if the bike could speak for itself, it might request a rim brake" Is about 
as close to any definitive statement on one vs. the other as he is willing 
to give here. In any case, I think your summary misses the forest for the 
trees.

I also don't think he views the fact that wheels can get wobbly and that 
can rub against a rim brake as something inherently "wrong" with the design 
of the rim brake itself. You could just as easily lay that on the wheel. 
It's just a fact that wheels can go out of true and rub on brake pads. You 
can use it as a warning to take a look at your wheel tension. He merely 
offers this and the fact that heat might pop a tube or wet and muck can 
affect braking as potential advantages to discs, not as things "wrong" with 
rim brakes. (BTW, I live in a hilly area, never heard of or saw a tube pop 
from overheated rim. But our hills are not as long as the ones out West.) 
Just as frames had to be beefed up for discs, you could potentially design 
a tube that can withstand the temps, or a wheel that does not go out of 
true. But since these are not really problems per se so much as things that 
sometimes (rarely in the case of popped tubes) happen. Just as if you 
accidentally get grease or lube spray on your discs. 



On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 4:09:29 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I disagree that Grant's BLUG post is against disc brakes at all, much less 
> adamantly against them.  My summary of Grant's BLUG post is:
>
> - Rim brakes are adequate for most applications, and get a bad rap from 
> the majority of the bicycle world in 2016
> - Disc brakes are better, but most riding applications don't require them
> - Rim brakes have three things wrong with them, and we're stuck with them
> - Disc brakes have two things wrong with them, but both of those problems 
> have been solved
> - The bike of the future won't be mechanically understood by riders as 
> well as the bikes of the past were, and that's kind of a bummer
>
> Note that the forthcoming Rivendell tandem will have at least one disc 
> brake. 
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>

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[RBW] FS (possibly) 2012 Red Roadeo 59cm complete bike

[Forrest Meyer]

Rivendell Roadeo 59cm, new in spring 2012. Thinking of selling, Complete 
bike minus saddle and pedals (and saddlebag and water bottle cages). Just 
trying to assess interest out there ... If it's there I can provide more 
info and pics -- and float a price. This bike now has Shimano Claris 
brifters (not pictured here) paired to 8-speed cassette. But I also will 
throw in Cane Creek brake levers (pictured here) and Rivendell Silver 
bar-end shifters as part of the deal if new owner would rather go 
"classic." (Barcons shown in pic are Shimano, but the ones I would provide 
are Riv Silvers.)


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[RBW] ISO: One used silver shifter, no pod

[Tommy Jarvis]

Hey all. My girlfriend's relaxed surly took a tumble in the basement the other 
night. The cats are fine and the bike didn't land in the litter box, but the 
right bar end shifter snapped in half. I'm trying to get her a replacement by 
her birthday in a couple weeks, so if any of you have extra of what I'm looking 
for, please get in touch. A suntour cyclone shifter would also work, right? 
Thanks,
Todd 

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[RBW] WTB: Wide/Low crankset

[ian m]

Prefer the Sugino version but would entertain the Clem take-off option !

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[RBW] 650b x 47c to fit 2016/2017 Hunqapillar & Atlantis?

[Robert Rutter]

http://www.wtb.com/pages/road-plus

I was reading about WTB's new "road plus" tires, and noticed that they 
listed 2016/2017 model Rivendell's as bikes that will accept the new tire 
size. I think currently the 650b size is only for smaller frame sizes on 
the Hunqapillar & Atlantis - Are more 650b Rivendells on the horizon?

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[RBW] Re: Gifford Pinchot NF

[Gum N Nuts]

The bicycle quarterly people are hosting their annual thing out of Carson 
this year, June 25 & 26. Same starting area as the hinterlands loop. Might 
be a good opportunity to meet up and talk routing, and ride out with some 
folks. I'm also going to be riding the gifford pinchot June 23-27, leaving 
out of Portland and this discussion brings up some good spots. 

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[RBW] Re: Interesting flower I saw on ride today.

[RobbeR49]

Definitely a tulip tree. One of the largest trees you'll find east of the 
Mississippi. Fairly easy to spot with the unique leaves, silvery bark, and 
how they tend to grow so perfectly straight. Sometimes the flowers go 
unnoticed, though.




On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 10:57:28 AM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I also noticed treefuls of purple trumpet looking flowers that I never 
> notice in this area before. Gorgeous outside today in Maryland on the Grist 
> Mill Trail.
>

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Re: [RBW] Seeking Help in the San Francisco Area

[Joe Gates]

Evan- Thank you for the offer to help. The seller and I have been able to work 
it out so I am all set.

The part of the story I did not have time to type this morning when I thought 
the bike was getting away from me is that part of the reason for buying a bike 
so far from home is that  I will be coming to San Francisco in September to 
ride from there to LA with some colleagues. The seller has agreed to store the 
bike for me until I pick it up then. Once I get a chance to ride my new-to-me 
Rivendell I will provide a report!

Joe

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[RBW] Re: (no longer FS:) Clem Smith 52cm Offroader

[Jeremy Tavan]

Thanks to iamkeith for the excellent in-depth write-up of the comparison 
between the Clem and the Jones. Having done some more riding on this fat tire 
Clem now, I definitely agree with his assessment. The long chsinstays 
definitely make it less quick and less conducive to popping up the front wheel, 
but boy is it a comfortable ride. The fork really does soak up bumps and road 
hash. I'm still not sure what type of bike this is going to end up, but it's 
sure nice on paved and gravel. Might be nice with some big supple Compass tires 
and touring racks...

As for handlebars, I'm definitely digging this 200mm bullmoose, though I 
understand they don't sell it any more. The regular 150mm would put the bars 
too close to me, I'm sure. The Jones  bar is really cool, and you can pick a 
stem to fit, which is lovely. 

/Jeremy (who probably should have started the discussion outside of a for-sale 
thread - sorry!)

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith 52cm Offroader

[Miles]

If I remember right Belopsky, are you in Michigan? I have recently plunged on a 
Jones Diamond with unicorn fork. Oddly simple but has something I have not 
found in a bike...until now. I'm near Midland if you ever want a test ride. 

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[RBW] Re: Long/scenic day rides to do from the New York City area

[Brad]

I've done variations on the Van Cortlandt ride and the Poughkeepsie ride. 
They're both fun, but riding between Poughkeepsie and Beacon on the west 
side of the river is really nice. Lots of quiet back road and rail trails. 
And there are a ton of variations you can do- I like riding through New 
Paltz and up into Mohonk & Minnewaska too.

Brad
Queens



On Thursday, May 5, 2016 at 3:02:04 PM UTC-4, Bob B wrote:
>
> I wanted to share a handful of the day rides I've done or am hoping to do 
> in the New York area, and perhaps get area-RBWOBers to share their routes 
> as well.
>
> These are destination rides that go along to scenic trails or bridges. The 
> goal is long stretches of scenic riding, as much as possible not in the 
> shoulder of a 45mph road. These are also relatively easy-going rides.
>
> Here's what I've come up with:
>
>
> *Battery Park (or wherever you live) to Brewster, NY *
>
> *Google Map Link:* *Click Here 
> *
>   
>
> *Length:* 64.2 miles
>
> *Route Info:* West Side Greenway > Van Cortlandt Park, Old Putnam Trail > 
> S County Trailway > N County Trailway all the way to Brewster, NY. Stop for 
> dinner and take the Metro North train from Brewster back to the city
>
> *Surface:* Mostly paved, a little dirt 
>
> *Camping Variant:* Possible to turn west from N. County Trailway towards 
> *Nimham 
> State Forest Multiple Use Area 
> *, which has MTB 
> trails and allows camping
>
>  
>
>  
> *Van Cortlandt Park (or where you live) to Kitchawan, NY and back*
>
> *Google Maps Link:* *Click Here 
> *
>   
>
> *Length:* 59.6 miles
>
> *Surface:* Paved and dirt/gravel
>
> *Route Info:* More or less Based on a Bike Snob ride report: Van 
> Cortlandt Park > Old Putnam Trail > S County Trailway > N County Trailway > 
> At Kitchawan hop over westward to Old Croton Trailway State Park > return 
> South along Old Croton Aqueduct Trail back to Van Cortlandt Park
>
>  
>
> *Trenton, NJ to New Brunswick*
>
> *Google Maps Link:* *Click Here 
> *
>   
>
> *Length:* 38.9 miles
>
> *Surface:* Paved and dirt/gravel
>
> *Route Info:* NJ Transit to Trenton > Raritan Canal State Park Trail all 
> thew way to New Brunswick > NJ Transit from New Brunswick back to the city
>
>
>
> *Poughkeepsie, NY over-the-Hudson-and-back to Beacon, NY*
>
> *Google Maps Link:* *Click Here 
> *
>  
>
> *Length:* 67.2 miles
>
> *Surface:* Paved and dirt/gravel
>
> *Route Info:* Metro North to Poughkeepsie > Walkway over the Hudson > 
> Some back roads > Wallkill Valley Trail > Some back roads > Newburgh-Beacon 
> Bridge to Beacon, NY. Stop for dinner and take Metro North train from 
> Beacon back to the city
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Wide/Low crankset

[Patrick Moore]

I have a X2D with 38 in middle position, 24 in granny, guard on outside.
172.5, used but nice looking. RIngs very little worn. $40 shipped CONUS.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:07 PM, ian m  wrote:

> Prefer the Sugino version but would entertain the Clem take-off option !
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Bill Lindsay]

I'm puzzled that you are puzzled, Mark in Beacon.  

I used the term 'better' to mean 'more powerful, but overkill for most 
situations', which is what I think Grant said and what he meant.  I'm sorry 
if that was not clear.  I used the phrase "three things wrong with rim 
brakes" to mean exactly what you said "three things potentially superior 
about disc brakes".  We agree, so don't be puzzled.  I agree with you that 
those three aspects of superiority of disc brakes rarely come up as actual 
problems with rim brakes, which is why ten of my eleven bikes have rim 
brakes.  I agree with Grant that rim brakes are completely adequate for 
most applications, and I agree with you that rim brakes are a part of the 
bicycle's core conviviality.  



On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 2:58:50 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> I am puzzled as to how you concluded Grant thinks disc brakes are 
> "better." That is a vague term in the best of scenarios; given the various 
> points and counterpoints brought up in the post, it seems more your 
> preconceived conclusion than Petersen's opinion in the piece. "Disc brakes 
> are fine, but if the bike could speak for itself, it might request a rim 
> brake" Is about as close to any definitive statement on one vs. the other 
> as he is willing to give here. In any case, I think your summary misses the 
> forest for the trees.
>
> I also don't think he views the fact that wheels can get wobbly and that 
> can rub against a rim brake as something inherently "wrong" with the design 
> of the rim brake itself. You could just as easily lay that on the wheel. 
> It's just a fact that wheels can go out of true and rub on brake pads. You 
> can use it as a warning to take a look at your wheel tension. He merely 
> offers this and the fact that heat might pop a tube or wet and muck can 
> affect braking as potential advantages to discs, not as things "wrong" with 
> rim brakes. (BTW, I live in a hilly area, never heard of or saw a tube pop 
> from overheated rim. But our hills are not as long as the ones out West.) 
> Just as frames had to be beefed up for discs, you could potentially design 
> a tube that can withstand the temps, or a wheel that does not go out of 
> true. But since these are not really problems per se so much as things that 
> sometimes (rarely in the case of popped tubes) happen. Just as if you 
> accidentally get grease or lube spray on your discs. 
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 4:09:29 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I disagree that Grant's BLUG post is against disc brakes at all, much 
>> less adamantly against them.  My summary of Grant's BLUG post is:
>>
>> - Rim brakes are adequate for most applications, and get a bad rap from 
>> the majority of the bicycle world in 2016
>> - Disc brakes are better, but most riding applications don't require them
>> - Rim brakes have three things wrong with them, and we're stuck with them
>> - Disc brakes have two things wrong with them, but both of those problems 
>> have been solved
>> - The bike of the future won't be mechanically understood by riders as 
>> well as the bikes of the past were, and that's kind of a bummer
>>
>> Note that the forthcoming Rivendell tandem will have at least one disc 
>> brake. 
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b x 47c to fit 2016/2017 Hunqapillar & Atlantis?

[Dave Johnston]

Clem 52cm and Joe Appaloosa 51cm will take that tire.

-Dave J

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 6:08:36 PM UTC-4, Robert Rutter wrote:
>
> http://www.wtb.com/pages/road-plus
>
> I was reading about WTB's new "road plus" tires, and noticed that they 
> listed 2016/2017 model Rivendell's as bikes that will accept the new tire 
> size. I think currently the 650b size is only for smaller frame sizes on 
> the Hunqapillar & Atlantis - Are more 650b Rivendells on the horizon?
>

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[RBW] Re: 650b x 47c to fit 2016/2017 Hunqapillar & Atlantis?

[Bill Lindsay]

We've never physically seen a 650B Hunqapillar or Atlantis yet, but Grant 
has indicated that both are going to be coming.  I have not seen what 
size(s) of each model will be 650B.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 3:08:36 PM UTC-7, Robert Rutter wrote:
>
> http://www.wtb.com/pages/road-plus
>
> I was reading about WTB's new "road plus" tires, and noticed that they 
> listed 2016/2017 model Rivendell's as bikes that will accept the new tire 
> size. I think currently the 650b size is only for smaller frame sizes on 
> the Hunqapillar & Atlantis - Are more 650b Rivendells on the horizon?
>

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[RBW] Re: WTT: Albastache for 58cm Bosco

[masmojo]

Funny, & your timing may be perfect,  I just removed the Boscos off my 
Clementine & was wanting some Albastaches for another build. They are the wide 
one's,  PM me!

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[RBW] Blue bars

[masmojo]

I have been riding the Clementine with the wide Boscos since I built her up and 
asuch ad liked them I could only get them to about 90% of how I thought they 
should feel on that bike.
Conversely,  I've had these old cruiser bats for 15 or so years and they never 
really workef on anything I put them on. The ladt few months I've been eying 
them hanging on the wall and thinking . .hm!? 
So anywayz, I finally put them on the other night and gave them a proper 
testing today and after 30 miles I can honestly say it's a match made in 
heaven! Yeah!
http://smg.photobucket.com/user/masmojo/media/20160513_080716_zpsjvxvvvwo.jpg.html
 I hope my photo works!?

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[RBW] Blue bars

[Joe Bernard]

That looks sweet with the orange frame. Upgrade!

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[RBW] Re: Interesting flower I saw on ride today.

[John Phillips]

This morning, I stepped outside my office here in San Francisco to make a 
call from the park across the street, saw these flowers, and said to 
myself, "Hey, I know what tree that is!"

You learn all sorts of things here! :)

John

On Monday, May 9, 2016 at 7:57:28 AM UTC-7, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I also noticed treefuls of purple trumpet looking flowers that I never 
> notice in this area before. Gorgeous outside today in Maryland on the Grist 
> Mill Trail.
>

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[RBW] Re: RBW Listers Take Over The West Point Inn, June 24 & 25 - Join us there!!!

[Brencho]

Hey folks, I'd love to join in if there's still space!  Been meaning to 
check it out for a while now. Well done!

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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Acorn saddlebag medium

[Toshi Takeuchi]

At one point Acorn had an M (which this definitely is not) an M/L and an
L.  This does not look to me to be the L, but an M/L.

Toshi


On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:

> I'm getting responses that this is not a medium, so maybe it's large?
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 1:44:18 PM UTC-7, Joe Bernard wrote:
> > Nice shape, all straps including to strap a jacket on top, tan, one
> small raspberry-looking splotch on the light-clip strap, $75 shipped.
> >
> > Email or text 415-786-4623 for pics
> > Joe Bernard
> > Vallejo, CA.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith 52cm Offroader

[Eric Daume]

I have a Jones Plus
,
but reading this really makes want to throw a leg over the regular Jones as
well. And a Clem (though I'm kind of waiting for a big RB Project bike...)

Eric

On Mon, May 9, 2016 at 8:55 PM, iamkeith  wrote:

>
> On Saturday, May 7, 2016 at 11:19:26 PM UTC-6, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Is this the consensus among Clem owners who have ridden the Jones? I'd be
>> interested to hear more about how they compare.
>>
>>
>> Back to Clem: I particularly am interested in how it does on dirt; not
>> necessarily tight, technical singletrack, which I don't like anyway, but on
>> dirt roads and doubletrack -- compared to the Jones, and compared to your
>> standard mountain bike.
>>
>
> Interesting question for me, as this is how I've been spending the first
> few weeks of the riding season this year - swapping back and forth between
> a Clem and a Jones.
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> I agree with Jeremy that the riding position is very similar - though I
> usually say that the Jones feels like a Rivendell, rather than the other
> way around.  Chicken & egg thing, I guess.
>
> The one thing I really gained from the Jones, that I believe you'll
> struggle with at first, Patrick, is a completely different view of saddle
> position.   Whereas a Rivendell merely "suggests" a large setback, rearward
> bias, the Jones "requires" it.  *Without* a huge setback, it is
> impossible to climb.  *With* a huge setback, all of the handling improves
> greatly.   I used to set up all my bikes with the same saddle position,
> relative to the crank (more or less KOPS), but no longer.  Once I got used
> to the setback on the Jones, everything else felt a little off.  So I've
> gradually been shoving all of my saddles rearward now.  (now I'll need to
> get new stems, darn it.)  I tried to set the Clem up so that the position
> matched the Jones as close as possible.   With the huge reach-back of the
> Bosco bar, it is almost necessary.
>
> I suspect most people are making a comparison between the Plus Jones and
> the Clem, because of the long chainstays, so the rest of this may not be
> relevant.  But even the Plus and Clem are different animals, with 19 & 21"
> chainstays respectively, and completely different front end geometries.
>
> My short-wheelbase, 17" chainstay Jones is a single track carving
> machine.  Very different from the Clem.   It goes wherever you point it,
> and you can lean over and take corners as fast as you want without worrying
> about losing traction.  I can't lift the front end of the Clem to save my
> life, whereas the Jones manuals and wheelies at will.  Both bikes are
> extremely stable, and are my two easiest bikes to ride no-hands.  I'm
> getting comfortable with the flexiness of the Bosco bar (plus I tightened
> it a lot more in the clamp), so I'm starting to take it on single track
> more, and I will say that it is very fun.   The long wheelbase doesn't make
> me worry about "high-centering," though I do worry about pedal strikes a
> bit more.   I might do a multi-day, loaded forest service road tour later
> this summer, and I'm almost positive the Clem is the bike I'd take.  Up
> until I started riding it, I thought I'd take the Jones.  To me, I'd say
> they are very nice complements to each other, but with entirely different
> personalities - despite the similar fit and comfort.  I'm guessing the Plus
> would fall something in between and/or more redundant?
>
> One amazing thing I'll say is this:  Despite the Jones having an
> intentionally compliant frame, a 3" / 13psi tire in the rear, and a 4.8" /
> 5psi tire in front, the long-wheelbase Clem is MUCH smoother on rough
> surfaces - even with its "skinny" 2.4 Super Motos.  It is unbelievable how
> the bike just smooths everything out.   For that reason alone, I've been
> opting to grab it more often than not.  I think the Hunquapillar fork must
> have a lot to do with this, in addition to the chainstay length.  I can
> actually see it flexing and absorbing vibration.  The Jones fork, on the
> other hand, is intended to not move or flex or twist an iota.
>
>
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[RBW] Re: Gifford Pinchot NF

[Curtis McKenzie]

Gum and Nuts,

We are thinking of the same thing. Leave out of Portland and spend 6 to 7
days exploring the GP. Would be good to hear about your travels

Curtis

On Wednesday, May 11, 2016, Gum N Nuts  wrote:

> The bicycle quarterly people are hosting their annual thing out of Carson
> this year, June 25 & 26. Same starting area as the hinterlands loop. Might
> be a good opportunity to meet up and talk routing, and ride out with some
> folks. I'm also going to be riding the gifford pinchot June 23-27, leaving
> out of Portland and this discussion brings up some good spots.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: RBW Listers Take Over The West Point Inn, June 24 & 25 - Join us there!!!

[cyclotourist]

Yes, definitely! Glad this topic came back around, I've been meaning to
talk it up a bit now that the date is closer.

Space for the whole weekend as well as the above-mentioned Saturday ramble.

Anyone who wants to commit with their hard-earned cash, just pm me at the
cyclotourist gmail address.

On Fri, May 13, 2016 at 4:38 PM, Brencho  wrote:

> Hey folks, I'd love to join in if there's still space!  Been meaning to
> check it out for a while now. Well done!
>
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Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] Re: Gifford Pinchot NF

[Jim Bronson]

Man I'm loving your photo stream.  The older I get, the more I miss the NW.


-Oregon native that's been in Texas for a while.

On Tue, May 10, 2016 at 10:08 PM, Leaf Slayer  wrote:

> I've done a fair amount of riding and bike camping in the GPNF and use the
> FS map. It's fine. I'm not sure how much you've ridden there but try to
> incorporate Babyshoe Pass and Lake Takhlakh. Some pictures from a little 3
> day trip a friend and I did a few years back. I've cruised through there on
> two other longer trips. It's also pretty easy to incorporate a trip into Mt
> Rainier NP. Enjoy!
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/41335973@N00/sets/72157624841177705
>
> --mike
>
> On Tuesday, May 10, 2016 at 9:45:28 AM UTC-7, Curtis wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> Looking into riding for several days in the Gifford Pinchot NF.  Any
>> advice?  What maps do you use?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Curtis
>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Well then Bill, let's just agree to agree! Quite convivial.

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 6:23:00 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I'm puzzled that you are puzzled, Mark in Beacon.  
>
> I used the term 'better' to mean 'more powerful, but overkill for most 
> situations', which is what I think Grant said and what he meant.  I'm sorry 
> if that was not clear.  I used the phrase "three things wrong with rim 
> brakes" to mean exactly what you said "three things potentially superior 
> about disc brakes".  We agree, so don't be puzzled.  I agree with you that 
> those three aspects of superiority of disc brakes rarely come up as actual 
> problems with rim brakes, which is why ten of my eleven bikes have rim 
> brakes.  I agree with Grant that rim brakes are completely adequate for 
> most applications, and I agree with you that rim brakes are a part of the 
> bicycle's core conviviality.  
>
>
>
> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 2:58:50 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>>
>> I am puzzled as to how you concluded Grant thinks disc brakes are 
>> "better." That is a vague term in the best of scenarios; given the various 
>> points and counterpoints brought up in the post, it seems more your 
>> preconceived conclusion than Petersen's opinion in the piece. "Disc brakes 
>> are fine, but if the bike could speak for itself, it might request a rim 
>> brake" Is about as close to any definitive statement on one vs. the other 
>> as he is willing to give here. In any case, I think your summary misses the 
>> forest for the trees.
>>
>> I also don't think he views the fact that wheels can get wobbly and that 
>> can rub against a rim brake as something inherently "wrong" with the design 
>> of the rim brake itself. You could just as easily lay that on the wheel. 
>> It's just a fact that wheels can go out of true and rub on brake pads. You 
>> can use it as a warning to take a look at your wheel tension. He merely 
>> offers this and the fact that heat might pop a tube or wet and muck can 
>> affect braking as potential advantages to discs, not as things "wrong" with 
>> rim brakes. (BTW, I live in a hilly area, never heard of or saw a tube pop 
>> from overheated rim. But our hills are not as long as the ones out West.) 
>> Just as frames had to be beefed up for discs, you could potentially design 
>> a tube that can withstand the temps, or a wheel that does not go out of 
>> true. But since these are not really problems per se so much as things that 
>> sometimes (rarely in the case of popped tubes) happen. Just as if you 
>> accidentally get grease or lube spray on your discs. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 4:09:29 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> I disagree that Grant's BLUG post is against disc brakes at all, much 
>>> less adamantly against them.  My summary of Grant's BLUG post is:
>>>
>>> - Rim brakes are adequate for most applications, and get a bad rap from 
>>> the majority of the bicycle world in 2016
>>> - Disc brakes are better, but most riding applications don't require them
>>> - Rim brakes have three things wrong with them, and we're stuck with them
>>> - Disc brakes have two things wrong with them, but both of those 
>>> problems have been solved
>>> - The bike of the future won't be mechanically understood by riders as 
>>> well as the bikes of the past were, and that's kind of a bummer
>>>
>>> Note that the forthcoming Rivendell tandem will have at least one disc 
>>> brake. 
>>>
>>> Bill Lindsay
>>> El Cerrito, CA
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: good blug post on rim and disk brakes

[Kurt Manley]

Just ride.then just brake

On Friday, May 13, 2016 at 7:19:47 AM UTC-7, Will wrote:
>
> Might be nice to push back to GP and encourage more of these posts. 
>

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