Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

[Joe Bernard]

More rubber at the center track to reduce flatting, thereby a little 
heavier. 

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 6:06:28 PM UTC-7 campyo...@me.com wrote:

> I was going to ask what the difference is. 
>
> –Eric N
>
>
> > On May 20, 2023, at 6:02 PM, mikel...@juno.com wrote:
> > 
> > those are ruffy tuffy not roly poly..i seem to recall a difference
> > 
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> .
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: 60cm Rosco Platypus - $2000 obo

[Erik]

SOLD.  

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 8:33:16 PM UTC-7 Erik wrote:

> I am putting my nearly new Rosco Platypus up for sale.  It's a lovely bike 
> that I put together back in December.  It has turned out that I rarely ride 
> it as it overlaps too much with my other bikes and deserves a home where it 
> will be put to better use!  I have it set up as a 2 speed right now without 
> shifters.  I can sell it that way or put a cassette, rear derailleur, and 
> front derailleur on it, if preferred.  I don't have any spare shifters, but 
> am happy to pick up some friction shifters and install them.  The current 
> build is as follows: 
>  
> 60cm frame - Purple
> 700c Velocity Dyad Wheelset w/Deore hubs and quick releases
> Soma Shikoro tires (48)
> Silver wide-low crankset 38/24
> KMC chain
> Paul Melvin tensioner or Acera derailleur 
> Shimano V-brakes, silver
> Shimano V-brake levers, silver
> Bosco Bullmoose bar
> Standard Riv seatpost
> Brooks saddle. Currently has Brooks Flyer, but could also swap out for a 
> C-17. 
> Gold water bottle cage and fork bolts.  
> VP Vise pedals
>
> If someone is interested in the bike and wants a front derailleur 
> installed, I am happy to do so.  I have a few around the shop that would 
> work.  I'd love a local (Bay Area, Sacramento, Chico, or points in between) 
> sale, but can also box and ship.  
>
> Send me a message if you are interested or have any questions!
>
> Erik 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Eric Marth]

Oops third pic is another Clem!

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:45:12 PM UTC-4 Eric Marth wrote:

> Blue Lug has a few photos, of course. Always a great source for Riv 
> builds. 
>
> Clem, Homer, Appaloosa below. 
>
> [image: bm1.png]
>
> [image: bm2.png]
>
> [image: 50511203443_521c45c97f_h.jpg]
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[iamkeith]

One more thing to illustrate with that picture, that I also just 
remembered:  my "primary" hand position (when just riding along) wants to 
be in front of those grips, almost on the curved part of the bar.  I 
haven't taped it or anything, but I operate the brake levers with my 
pinkies and hook my thumb in front of the shifters.  This bike even has a 
long-by-rivendell-standards top tube, so you can see why a much longer stem 
would be better.

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 6:29:27 PM UTC-6 iamkeith wrote:

> About to take Susie out for an evening ride, I just remembered that the 
> slope of the bars is better than when it's on the Clem   because the 
> slightly slacker headube angle.  When I had the adjustable kind, I still 
> liked them a bit more sloped than this though
> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-6 Paul Richardson wrote:
>
>> howdy folks
>>
>> i've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very 
>> many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you 
>> like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on 
>> the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness 
>> obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love 
>> to hear your experience before i take the plunge!
>>
>> thanks in advance
>> paul
>> takoma park, md.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I was going to ask what the difference is. 

–Eric N


> On May 20, 2023, at 6:02 PM, mikel66...@juno.com wrote:
> 
> those are ruffy tuffy not roly poly..i seem to recall a difference
> 
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Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

[mikel66...@juno.com]

those are ruffy tuffy not roly poly..i seem to recall a difference

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

[Steven Sweedler]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panaracer-Rivendell-Ruffy-Tuffy-Road-Tires-700x28c-Tan-Wall-New-no-packaging/304946354174?hash=item47003817fe:g:k5YAAOSwAkRkaRdk=enc:AQAI4POPQt2hupOFQTiPGtIVEtYMkSp8WKr9Kcw5vX5O/zxld3qxZPr9MjlcGDxEX74OoOcSeHif6AIJ/6i2wS71/e/hi1CMZHJA+XgWJaBx7FbZZwPF/TAtn8PDR/Ic8L15h5diFRM7sZe1gvDHWwC51lGxveqRN4ZkZo9PLnly/kQ3pWikMNA2Nxvnb1gHk5wFzDYlkWWILt/9nA1Dw2wjUJBdkend00o6S1vIWlGjNMppI85uCDUxcgRDzmekWdxgZ4pS+m6o9xXfPejO1BG3pewzY25G2po3T2XCp8L56MJl%7Ctkp:Bk9SR4Cb37qHYg=c51cb47a-a027-4067-b0e5-668bbdc57d41=mobile


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Panaracer-Rivendell-Ruffy-Tuffy-Road-Tires-700x28c-Tan-Wall/304946254173?hash=item470036915d:g:ElwAAOSwq5RkaPkq=enc:AQAIwE2zZ+2OmcT6/1Hv4Hssi/2LxWZeqvdTyRSGxhQ/vxTF2ewHc+NCg/UFIjmNaIVeEtFn2oKxXMkIOdbuNom+9YJFq0s1kDqIAUvex8y0ymLBxM+Orsaz2rKoEjsIg7CmdrtS1kAPapNZiXFmkY/Xlc1Qs50PAt+bG4Z693laxLWLdv8cudrgHdJV8GNXaJZssTpoSD3/lCfpGcxURLIjjvqbdNCfzdSQfWhZLP5Nzl3hY1pCQVu/XJDrW6vPSgGpQw==%7Ctkp:Bk9SR4Cb37qHYg=9347c951-1531-4fbf-b2c0-7e92c5e78574=mobile

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:33 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Can you send a link? Not seeing them when I search for “Rivendell tires"
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy
>
> On May 20, 2023, at 5:30 PM, Steven Sweedler  wrote:
>
> Eric, two listings on ebay under Rivendell
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:27 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:
>
>> Anybody have some new or new-ish Roly Poly tires in 700x28 that you don’t
>> need?
>>
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyonly...@me.com
>> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
>> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy
>>
>>
>> --
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>> 
>> .
>>
> --
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshire
>
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> .
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-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Can you send a link? Not seeing them when I search for “Rivendell tires"

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

> On May 20, 2023, at 5:30 PM, Steven Sweedler  wrote:
> 
> Eric, two listings on ebay under Rivendell
> 
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:27 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch 
>  > wrote:
>> Anybody have some new or new-ish Roly Poly tires in 700x28 that you don’t 
>> need?
>> 
>> --Eric Norris
>> campyonly...@me.com 
>> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
>> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 
>> 
>> 
>> -- 
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>> .
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/9F704FA2-753A-4BC9-8FD6-D90397D5BAA6%40me.com
>>  
>> .
> -- 
> Steven Sweedler
> Plymouth, New Hampshire
> 
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>  
> .

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Re: [RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

[Steven Sweedler]

Eric, two listings on ebay under Rivendell

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:27 PM 'Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Anybody have some new or new-ish Roly Poly tires in 700x28 that you don’t
> need?
>
> --Eric Norris
> campyonly...@me.com
> Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
> YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy
>
> --
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> 
> .
>
-- 
Steven Sweedler
Plymouth, New Hampshire

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[RBW] WTB: Roly Poly Tires

['Eric Norris' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Anybody have some new or new-ish Roly Poly tires in 700x28 that you don’t need?

--Eric Norris
campyonly...@me.com
Insta: @CampyOnlyGuy
YouTube: YouTube.com/CampyOnlyGuy 

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Re: [RBW] Nitto R-14 Rear Struts Attachment Points

[ian m]

Q's for anyone that may know: Is the R-14 model discontinued or is 
everywhere just out of stock at the moment? Is there any other small 
saddleback support rack that can mount a rear wired light?

On Monday, April 17, 2023 at 12:04:21 PM UTC-4 brok...@gmail.com wrote:

> Here’s how I’m running my R14:
> [image: 
> F11x5vN0QSPauM4Q6QWenDWpCBSRMNFFivkAn-wehoMFoF1xcpDlt8TEsFsg7o-5P6I1nJBggf0DAhVbCj9tJd9oUsssDl0qiW5unBVPWz2NR80HU310OnXnKHEICwAz3PYpCSEwxQ=w600-h315-p-k.jpeg]
>
> R14 rack 
> app.goo.gl 
> 
> I’m using this rack primarily as a saddlebag support, so I didn’t feel the 
> need to take the stays all the way down to the dropouts. Plus, I think this 
> looks way better. Of course, I had to do sone creative bending of those 
> front stays.
>
> On Apr 17, 2023, at 11:53 AM, Mike  wrote:
>
> To all the lighter duty rear rack users out there, 
>
>
> The Nitto R14 rack has rear struts that allow for connection to 2 and even 
> 3 possible locations on some Riv frames, and I am curious which ones others 
> use or prefer and why?  This question applies to those running the RBW51 or 
> M1 as a rear rack, too. I see installations that use the upper dropout 
> eyelets, others the lower hourglass brazeons on seat stays,  and some the 
> mid stay hourglass brazeons.  Does anyone’s preference vary on different 
> frame models, or even different frame sizes? 
>
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>  
> 
> .
>
>

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Re: [RBW] boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Richard Rose]

Also, unlike others I am not bothered by the flex of either the 550 wide steel Bosco on the Clem or the 580 wide aluminum one on the Gus. But I only weigh 170 lbs. and have virtually no weight on my hands. The Boscomoose I had was noticeably stiffer which I did not necessarily like.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 20, 2023, at 12:41 PM, Paul Richardson  wrote:howdy folksi've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love to hear your experience before i take the plunge!thanks in advancepaultakoma park, md.



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Re: [RBW] boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Richard Rose]

Hi Paul. I have Bosco bars on both my Clem L & Gus. Love the look of the Boscomoose so searched for & bought one. It was a no go for me. Length was fine but not being able to adjust the tilt did not work for me - they were just too “flat”.On my Clem I have a 135 FacePlater stem & get zero slippage unless I start doing some drops.On the Gus (threadless) I have the Nitto V5 stem & it is very solid - unless I do drops. On the Gus I have tried a few drops & there is just too much leverage - the bar slips. So I just don’t do drops. I might be persuaded to try one of the Boscomoose for threadless bars on the Gus, but those are even more hard to find than the quill version.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 20, 2023, at 12:41 PM, Paul Richardson  wrote:howdy folksi've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love to hear your experience before i take the plunge!thanks in advancepaultakoma park, md.



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[RBW] Re: 26.8 seatposts with generous setback

[Johnny Alien]

Wow! If someone needs that much setback I would think they have the wrong 
sized frame.

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 4:29:30 PM UTC-4 Craig Montgomery wrote:

>
> https://www.ebay.com/itm/256074774748?hash=item3b9f3ef8dc:g:RhEAAOSws0hkX-AT=enc%3AAQAI4DfCiOEnjCvHhEU4bvqRDReTJ0m362omPlZff140MwozY6egewAqxLbY%2FCM6cb3VeqAQUy1E3FHBSP66Cwkpj3b70sLwAY1HVQ3i6pKXBI27s7mFCpliMiV1OQUJraR1uxiGX6UxJlKwM3peUVy7UNEYMQVYZdITGOb6NM5jP2aBScDUF57hz0dfJwKshD70UPj2azpERnKdgTN%2BBLL%2FRdn9mYJSfK%2B8UiFINCeK4R5LchB6MLQUqE2pNuQdmCFoKuT%2BztFW3jVjct%2BHBt9Xv0uS9OQ10PPShHnPCl3UihQU%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6LVwq2HYg
>
> Another option
> Craig in Tucson
>
> On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:42:33 PM UTC-7 Paul in Dallas wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> I was recently talking with a friend here in the area also looking for a 
>> 26.8 set post with more set back for his Roadini.
>>
>> He decided to have Rivbike order the IRC one for him some have had issues 
>> with because he heard a Rivendell employee recently had tried one and had 
>> no issues because IRC had resolved the issue with a thicker serrated washer.
>>
>> He said he would report back after trying it.
>>
>> Personally I would consult with an experienced frame builder about 
>> reaming out a seat tube especially with an expensive frame and have an 
>> expert builder donut if I went that route.
>>
>> I might've tempted to try it on a $50 Craiglist bike but not a nice bike 
>> I loved.
>>
>> Safe riding to all.
>>
>> Paul in Dallas 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Gearing (was Getting Over My Head)

[Patrick Moore]

Just remembered: Even after selling the big box o' cogs I re-acquired
another big box of them, not quite 20 lb, still sitting under my workbench.
These are from 8 but mostly 9-10 and some 11 discard cassettes; no more 7s
or Uniglides. If anyone needs a particular loose HG cog, I'll be happy to
look and, if it's not a strategic one I want to hoard I'll be happy to
share. Note: I can search only by # teeth, not era (# cogs in cassette) or
series (position of cog in cassette). The present box also includes about
2.5 lbs each of fixd cogs, ss Shimano/clone cogs, and SA cogs

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 3:35 PM Patrick Moore  wrote:

> Following Ted's good example by taking this to his new thread:
>
> Back in the 7 and perhaps 8 speed days cassettes were bolted together and
> it was easy to disassemble them. Then they started using rivets which were
> easy to drill out. The only real problem in disassembling cassettes for
> individual cogs is cassettes built on spiders, tho' I suppose you can find
> a spidered cog subset of your choice and add it to loose smaller cogs; I
> stopped at the rivets. But I used to have a (really) 20 lb box of 7, 8, 9,
> and 10 sp HG cogs and some Uniglides from which I built 7, 8, 9, and even
> 10 sp cassettes that worked fine; then I ordered Shimano-type Miche cogs in
> more or less the right series; these shifted better; in fact,  with 11 sp
> chain on 10 of them, perfectly, and I sold that box of cogs and stocked up
> on Miches.
>
> I bought my Miches from Cycle Clinic in England during COVID when you
> couldn't find them in the US; perhaps now again available domestically;
> quick looks says Modern Bike has 53 different ones. Perhaps QBP is now
> carrying them again?
>
> Parick Moore, who also filed modern 3-prong SA 3/32 cogs to fit ancient
> 2-spline 1/8" SA drivers.
>
>
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 11:49 AM George Schick  wrote:
>
>> Now that we've pretty thoroughly hijacked this blog thread:  Patrick, if
>> you've been building your own cassettes for 20 years, where have you been
>> able to purchase individual cogs (and spacers) in order to assemble your
>> own desired combination?  Everything I've noticed when removing cassettes
>> from their splined "body" for cleaning or substituting a different combo's
>> was that several of the central cogs are riveted together (which is what I
>> think Piaw was getting at when he said "...after cassettes were introduced
>> you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more...")?
>>
>> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:58:59 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>>> I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got
>>> sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even
>>> indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm
>>> using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've
>>> never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar
>>> longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp
>>> cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10
>>> sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.
>>>
>>
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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Re: [RBW] Gearing (was Getting Over My Head)

[Patrick Moore]

Following Ted's good example by taking this to his new thread:

Back in the 7 and perhaps 8 speed days cassettes were bolted together and
it was easy to disassemble them. Then they started using rivets which were
easy to drill out. The only real problem in disassembling cassettes for
individual cogs is cassettes built on spiders, tho' I suppose you can find
a spidered cog subset of your choice and add it to loose smaller cogs; I
stopped at the rivets. But I used to have a (really) 20 lb box of 7, 8, 9,
and 10 sp HG cogs and some Uniglides from which I built 7, 8, 9, and even
10 sp cassettes that worked fine; then I ordered Shimano-type Miche cogs in
more or less the right series; these shifted better; in fact,  with 11 sp
chain on 10 of them, perfectly, and I sold that box of cogs and stocked up
on Miches.

I bought my Miches from Cycle Clinic in England during COVID when you
couldn't find them in the US; perhaps now again available domestically;
quick looks says Modern Bike has 53 different ones. Perhaps QBP is now
carrying them again?

Parick Moore, who also filed modern 3-prong SA 3/32 cogs to fit ancient
2-spline 1/8" SA drivers.



On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 11:49 AM George Schick  wrote:

> Now that we've pretty thoroughly hijacked this blog thread:  Patrick, if
> you've been building your own cassettes for 20 years, where have you been
> able to purchase individual cogs (and spacers) in order to assemble your
> own desired combination?  Everything I've noticed when removing cassettes
> from their splined "body" for cleaning or substituting a different combo's
> was that several of the central cogs are riveted together (which is what I
> think Piaw was getting at when he said "...after cassettes were introduced
> you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more...")?
>
> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:58:59 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got
>> sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even
>> indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm
>> using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've
>> never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar
>> longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp
>> cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10
>> sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: 26.8 seatposts with generous setback

[Craig Montgomery]

https://www.ebay.com/itm/256074774748?hash=item3b9f3ef8dc:g:RhEAAOSws0hkX-AT=enc%3AAQAI4DfCiOEnjCvHhEU4bvqRDReTJ0m362omPlZff140MwozY6egewAqxLbY%2FCM6cb3VeqAQUy1E3FHBSP66Cwkpj3b70sLwAY1HVQ3i6pKXBI27s7mFCpliMiV1OQUJraR1uxiGX6UxJlKwM3peUVy7UNEYMQVYZdITGOb6NM5jP2aBScDUF57hz0dfJwKshD70UPj2azpERnKdgTN%2BBLL%2FRdn9mYJSfK%2B8UiFINCeK4R5LchB6MLQUqE2pNuQdmCFoKuT%2BztFW3jVjct%2BHBt9Xv0uS9OQ10PPShHnPCl3UihQU%7Ctkp%3ABk9SR6LVwq2HYg

Another option
Craig in Tucson

On Thursday, May 18, 2023 at 1:42:33 PM UTC-7 Paul in Dallas wrote:

>
>
> I was recently talking with a friend here in the area also looking for a 
> 26.8 set post with more set back for his Roadini.
>
> He decided to have Rivbike order the IRC one for him some have had issues 
> with because he heard a Rivendell employee recently had tried one and had 
> no issues because IRC had resolved the issue with a thicker serrated washer.
>
> He said he would report back after trying it.
>
> Personally I would consult with an experienced frame builder about reaming 
> out a seat tube especially with an expensive frame and have an expert 
> builder donut if I went that route.
>
> I might've tempted to try it on a $50 Craiglist bike but not a nice bike I 
> loved.
>
> Safe riding to all.
>
> Paul in Dallas 
>

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Re: [RBW] boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Jay Lonner]

I had them on my Hunq when I first got it, and liked them well enough. Also experimented with non-moose Boscos and like others have mentioned found them way too flexy. When I went back to the mooses I found myself sitting more upright than I wanted, which maybe would be less of an issue for current stretched-out Riv designs. I have since settled on Jones bars and find them to be a great match for the Hunq. I would also consider Tumbleweed Persuader bars. I like wide handlebars and I do not lie (h/t Sir Mix-a-Lot). Whatbars.com is a helpful resource.Jay LonnerBellingham, WASent from my Atari 400On May 20, 2023, at 9:41 AM, Paul Richardson  wrote:howdy folksi've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love to hear your experience before i take the plunge!thanks in advancepaultakoma park, md.



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[RBW] Re: Gearing (was Getting Over My Head)

[George Schick]

Thanks a bunch, Ted.  It's very helpful.  What you say here is pretty much 
the way I've set things up on my bikes and I've enjoyed riding them with 
gearing like this.

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 12:55:27 PM UTC-5 Ted Durant wrote:

> Hi All -
>
> Leah's "Getting Over My Head" thread seems to have evolved into a gearing 
> thread. I retired from a career in data mining and statistical modeling, so 
> you can just imagine how much time I've wasted on "optimizing" bicycle 
> gearing. 
>
> Here's the TL;DR version: it's impossible to optimize gearing, so stop 
> sweating it.
>
> The slightly longer version is that we are locked into integer tooth 
> counts; when the optimal cog is 14.5 teeth, that ain't an option! So, we 
> are forced into compromising or, better yet, satisficing. 
>
> There are essentially three key points we are trying to fix with gears: 
> the lowest low, the highest high, and the steps in between. Given those, we 
> then try create a system that reliably and easily shifts among the gears. 
> For me, a 2x system using components available today provides the best 
> combination of low-low, high-high, steps in between, simplicity, 
> consistency, and reliability. But that depends highly on the chain, the 
> chainrings, and the front derailer playing nicely together. It also works 
> for me because I use it as 2 gearing ranges, one for flats and downhills, 
> the other for long, steeper uphills.
>
> The lowest low and the highest high are pretty straightforward, and plenty 
> of ink has been spilled on how to choose those, so there's no point in 
> elaborating on that. It's the "steps in between" part that drives us wild. 
> In theory, we think, we'd like to have perfectly even steps between the 
> high and low. In practice, though, 1) that's simply not possible with a 
> cog-and-chain drivetrain, and 2) it might not even be that desirable. A lot 
> of riders, myself included, find that we prefer smaller steps between gears 
> in the range in which we normally ride, and larger steps out in the 
> extremes. 
>
> What I definitely don't like is having a big difference between 3 adjacent 
> cogs in the middle of my cruising range. For example, a 1-tooth difference 
> one way and a 2-tooth difference the other. Unfortunately, this is a common 
> occurrence in large cog count cassettes with tiny small cogs - they go from 
> a 1-tooth difference to a 2-tooth difference near the middle of the 
> cluster. That's twice the amount of reduction/increase in effort. So, when 
> I'm looking at cassettes, I'm looking for ones where that 1-to-2 transition 
> occurs as close to the small cog as I can get it. A major factor here is 
> the movement to smaller smallest cogs, which has gone from 14 to 10 in my 
> time. Starting from 11 (or, God forbid, 10!) you use a lot of cogs to get 
> to the point where 2-tooth steps start to make sense.
>
> On the other hand, those small smallest cogs mean we can use small outer 
> chainrings, and that's something of a boon if your front derailer can 
> handle it, because it means we can also use smaller inner rings on a 2x to 
> get sufficiently low gearing. The difference between chainrings is worth 
> examining a bit. Typical road double front derailers have a 16-tooth max 
> difference specification, which derives from the standard "compact double" 
> 50-34. That's a 39% difference, which is a pretty big jump, roughly 3.3x 
> the average jump on the cassettes often paired with those chainrings. So, 
> shifting up front is the equivalent of around 3 1/3 cogs in back. On my 
> Waterford I use a 42-tooth large ring, and a 26-tooth small ring is 16t 
> smaller, but that's a whopping 48% difference, which is 5x the average jump 
> on my cassette. Piaw mentioned going with smaller tooth differences up 
> front, and there's a good example of why. When I built my Breadwinner I 
> went with 44x32 up front, a 32% difference that is 3.1x the average 
> difference on the cassette. I find that to be a much less disruptive change 
> than on my Waterford. The front chainring difference as a multiple of the 
> average in back turned out to be a significant factor for me. Sure, it 
> means I have more overlap in gears, but that's less important to me than 
> the change in cadence caused by shifting.
>
> One last consideration as I'm designing a drivetrain is that I want my 
> preferred cruising gear near the center of the rear cogs, maybe a little 
> closer to the small end, so that I can be on the large ring for most of my 
> riding around home. That's around a 5.0 gain ratio for me now, which is the 
> 42x17 on my Waterford. And, as noted, I want a consistent difference above 
> and below that gear, which means, for me, a 2-tooth change on each side of 
> it. 
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee, WI USA
>

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[RBW] Gearing (was Getting Over My Head)

[Ted Durant]

Hi All -

Leah's "Getting Over My Head" thread seems to have evolved into a gearing 
thread. I retired from a career in data mining and statistical modeling, so 
you can just imagine how much time I've wasted on "optimizing" bicycle 
gearing. 

Here's the TL;DR version: it's impossible to optimize gearing, so stop 
sweating it.

The slightly longer version is that we are locked into integer tooth 
counts; when the optimal cog is 14.5 teeth, that ain't an option! So, we 
are forced into compromising or, better yet, satisficing. 

There are essentially three key points we are trying to fix with gears: the 
lowest low, the highest high, and the steps in between. Given those, we 
then try create a system that reliably and easily shifts among the gears. 
For me, a 2x system using components available today provides the best 
combination of low-low, high-high, steps in between, simplicity, 
consistency, and reliability. But that depends highly on the chain, the 
chainrings, and the front derailer playing nicely together. It also works 
for me because I use it as 2 gearing ranges, one for flats and downhills, 
the other for long, steeper uphills.

The lowest low and the highest high are pretty straightforward, and plenty 
of ink has been spilled on how to choose those, so there's no point in 
elaborating on that. It's the "steps in between" part that drives us wild. 
In theory, we think, we'd like to have perfectly even steps between the 
high and low. In practice, though, 1) that's simply not possible with a 
cog-and-chain drivetrain, and 2) it might not even be that desirable. A lot 
of riders, myself included, find that we prefer smaller steps between gears 
in the range in which we normally ride, and larger steps out in the 
extremes. 

What I definitely don't like is having a big difference between 3 adjacent 
cogs in the middle of my cruising range. For example, a 1-tooth difference 
one way and a 2-tooth difference the other. Unfortunately, this is a common 
occurrence in large cog count cassettes with tiny small cogs - they go from 
a 1-tooth difference to a 2-tooth difference near the middle of the 
cluster. That's twice the amount of reduction/increase in effort. So, when 
I'm looking at cassettes, I'm looking for ones where that 1-to-2 transition 
occurs as close to the small cog as I can get it. A major factor here is 
the movement to smaller smallest cogs, which has gone from 14 to 10 in my 
time. Starting from 11 (or, God forbid, 10!) you use a lot of cogs to get 
to the point where 2-tooth steps start to make sense.

On the other hand, those small smallest cogs mean we can use small outer 
chainrings, and that's something of a boon if your front derailer can 
handle it, because it means we can also use smaller inner rings on a 2x to 
get sufficiently low gearing. The difference between chainrings is worth 
examining a bit. Typical road double front derailers have a 16-tooth max 
difference specification, which derives from the standard "compact double" 
50-34. That's a 39% difference, which is a pretty big jump, roughly 3.3x 
the average jump on the cassettes often paired with those chainrings. So, 
shifting up front is the equivalent of around 3 1/3 cogs in back. On my 
Waterford I use a 42-tooth large ring, and a 26-tooth small ring is 16t 
smaller, but that's a whopping 48% difference, which is 5x the average jump 
on my cassette. Piaw mentioned going with smaller tooth differences up 
front, and there's a good example of why. When I built my Breadwinner I 
went with 44x32 up front, a 32% difference that is 3.1x the average 
difference on the cassette. I find that to be a much less disruptive change 
than on my Waterford. The front chainring difference as a multiple of the 
average in back turned out to be a significant factor for me. Sure, it 
means I have more overlap in gears, but that's less important to me than 
the change in cadence caused by shifting.

One last consideration as I'm designing a drivetrain is that I want my 
preferred cruising gear near the center of the rear cogs, maybe a little 
closer to the small end, so that I can be on the large ring for most of my 
riding around home. That's around a 5.0 gain ratio for me now, which is the 
42x17 on my Waterford. And, as noted, I want a consistent difference above 
and below that gear, which means, for me, a 2-tooth change on each side of 
it. 

Ted Durant
Milwaukee, WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Please Join us: Riv Ride, Yankee Springs in Hastings, Michigan

[Leah Peterson]

Reminder: one week from today is our Riv Ride! Ready the Rivendells, pack them up and bring to them for a ride through Yankee Springs Recreation Area!Date: May 27Time: 1030Place: Park at Waldorff’s in Hastings, MichiganWhat: 35-40 mile route on gravel roads in Yankee SpringsJoin us afterwards for food and drinks at Waldorff’s Brewpub. Can’t wait to see you all!Leah and MarcOn May 9, 2023, at 10:03 AM, Marc Irwin  wrote:That is always something to consider there.  We will only be riding 6 miles on paved secondary roads, the rest will be gravel.  The main traffic concerns in the area are around Gun Lake and Chief Noonday road which we will be avoiding.   I did a solo trip last year on that weekend and had no problems at all.MarcOn Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 9:15:52 AM UTC-4 George Schick wrote:Y'all may want to keep in mind that's Memorial Day weekend.  Not sure how crowded the roads around Hastings and the Yankee Springs Recreation Area get during the year's first big holiday, but things might get a little dicey.On Tuesday, May 9, 2023 at 8:06:54 AM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! wrote:Hi Friends,The storms forecast for the weekend are going to force us to reschedule the ride. We needed to give ample time for those who are joining us from out of the area to prepare.Instead of Saturday 13th, the ride will now be Saturday, May 27th, 10:30 am. We are excited to see you then.Leah and MarcOn May 5, 2023, at 12:04 PM, Leah Peterson  wrote:Reminder: Next Saturday is our first Unofficial Riv Ride of the season! If you plan to come, I’d love to know who we’re expecting ahead of time. You can say so in the comments. I can’t wait to see you and your beautiful bikes.———Hi Riv Friends,Spring is here and it is time to announce our first Michigan Riv Ride of the season. Bring your favorite Rivendell to downtown Hastings, Michigan (parking lot behind Waldorff’s) on May 13th at 10:30 am for a ride with other Riv owners. We have a 35-40 mile route planned through beautiful Yankee Springs, and will end where we began, in downtown Hastings. Join us at the lovely Waldorff Brewpub where we will convene after, for food and drinks. https://www.walldorffbrewpub.com/storyThe road is gravel, so consider that when choosing what tires you’re running. If we get rained out, the ride will be rescheduled for May 27th, same time. This ride is not affiliated with Rivendell Bicycle Works; it is a meeting of like-minded riders who will probably ride Rivs. Ride at your own risk.We are so excited to see you there! Leah Peterson and Marc IrwinSent from my iPhoneOn Apr 22, 2023, at 10:15 AM, Richard Rose  wrote:I was thinking Yankee Springs? I am thinking of driving over on Friday to ride the trail & camp @ Yankee? Short drive to Hastings Saturday morning.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 22, 2023, at 9:58 AM, Marc Irwin  wrote:There is a nice single track course near the Deep Lake rustic campground.  It's one of my favorite destinations for a weekend out of the house.MarcOn Friday, April 21, 2023 at 3:28:12 PM UTC-4 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:Not only does this ride sound like a blast, but it also affords the opportunity to ride some nearby singletrack. Might have to make a weekend out of this one.Sent from my iPhoneOn Apr 21, 2023, at 2:40 PM, Bicycle Belle Ding Ding!  wrote:Hi Riv Friends,Spring is here and it is time to announce our first Michigan Riv Ride. Bring your favorite Rivendell to downtown Hastings, Michigan (parking lot to be determined) on May 13th at 10:30 am for a ride with other Riv owners. We have a 35-40 mile route planned through beautiful Yankee Springs, and will end where we began, in downtown Hastings. Join us at the lovely Waldorff Brewpub where we will convene after for food and drinks. https://www.walldorffbrewpub.com/storyThe road is gravel, so consider that when choosing what tires you’re running. If we get rained out, the ride will be rescheduled for May 27th, same time. This ride is not affiliated with Rivendell Bicycle Works; it is a meeting of like-minded riders who will probably ride Rivs. Ride at your own risk.We are so excited to see you there! Leah Peterson and Marc Irwin



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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

[George Schick]

Now that we've pretty thoroughly hijacked this blog thread:  Patrick, if 
you've been building your own cassettes for 20 years, where have you been 
able to purchase individual cogs (and spacers) in order to assemble your 
own desired combination?  Everything I've noticed when removing cassettes 
from their splined "body" for cleaning or substituting a different combo's 
was that several of the central cogs are riveted together (which is what I 
think Piaw was getting at when he said "...after cassettes were introduced 
you couldn't pick individual sprockets any more...")?

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 11:58:59 AM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got 
> sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even 
> indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm 
> using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've 
> never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar 
> longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp 
> cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10 
> sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.
>
> It's really wonderful how well Barcons (and 8 sp era rd) work with 10 sp 
> cogs and an 11 sp chain; every time I ride the bike in question I'm 
> delighted. Much better, IMO, than friction 7 and 9 speed even with fully 
> stock cassettes and chains.
>
> Do you have a link to or PDF of your halfstep article? Or -- since there 
> are RR archives -- a publication # or date? I'm tempted to set up a half 
> step drivetrain on a bike with disk brakes just because ... (already have 
> another bike with non-aero levers and disk brakes).
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:29 AM Piaw Na  wrote:
>
>> I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and 
>> granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the 
>> sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual 
>> sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over 
>> to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced. 
>> Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be 
>> quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain 
>> (about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually 
>> shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between 
>> sprockets when you shift and have to trim. 
>>
>> -- 
>>
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> -- 
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> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
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Re: [RBW] Roadini 1000 mile review

[John Bokman]

Piaw, thanks for taking the time to measure!

Although I have been a customer of Rivendell since their inception and  was 
a Bridgestone rider previously, I would like to support them as much as 
possible. However, I find it frustrating that they don't list frame tubing 
specs. I understand there are many reasons why they would not do so. But, 
as someone who would be buying a frame from out of state, sight unseen, 
it's a tough sell. As you rightly suggest, the only way to know how it 
feels is to ride one.

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 7:22:41 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> I got out my calipers --- the top tube, head tube, and seat tubes are 29mm 
> (most likely 28.6), and the downtube is 31.5mm (most likely 31.8). It 
> doesn't feel stiff to me, but since I broke 2 ti frames, my guess is each 
> time I broke one my custom builder proceeded to build me bikes with 
> thicker/heavier tubing, so it's quite possible that my ti touring bike is 
> so stiff that OS tubing feels right. The seatpost is 26.8mm, so that means 
> the tube is 1.2mm thick at the ends and thinner in the middle. Since the 
> tubes used by Rivendell aren't disclosed, you'd have to ride it to see how 
> stiff you think it is. I don't have a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 to compare, but 
> when I rode that one I wasn't nearly as strong or as abusive to bicycles as 
> I am now. I was considerably lighter (113 pounds), and wasn't taking my 
> road bikes off pavement, jumping ditches, etc. (That RB-1 died when a Volvo 
> hit me)
>
> Looking at this page: 
> https://www.veloduo.co.uk/blogs/news/steel-frame-tubing-fact-and-mythology, 
> the typical steel frame seat tube has an outside diameter of 28.6 (which is 
> pretty much what I measured). I know Grant is conservative about tubing 
> (which is why I'm so confident about riding the Roadini off pavement), so a 
> wall thickness of 1.2mm (being 0.4mm thicker than the 531 standard) 
> wouldn't surprise me.
> On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 4:01:04 AM UTC-7 Eric Daume wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> I’m 6’3”, 180 pounds, and briefly had a 61cm Roadini. It has some weird 
>> tapering to the tubes, but I think it was basically double OS on that size. 
>> Maybe 28.6 tapering to 31.8 or something. It felt stiff and not 
>> particularly responsive to me. It’s not like an old vintage road bike with 
>> a 25.4mm top tube. 
>>
>> My ‘84 Trek rides better, but doesn’t have the tire clearance or long 
>> wheelbase of the Roadini. 
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>> On Friday, May 19, 2023, John Bokman  wrote:
>>
>>> Piaw, thanks for the comments and pictures! Looks like you're having 
>>> loads of fun.
>>>
>>> I would likely be running  downtube shifters and a 2x with a long cage 
>>> derailieur to get my low gears. You must be running, what,  an 11x50? I'm 
>>> sorry for the redundant question if it's listed on the website,  but are 
>>> these oversized tubes? They look to be 28.6cm at least? Yet you still feel 
>>> it is a compliant frame? (No judgement, just trying to decipher.)
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:35:17 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Here are some pictures of my Roadini: 
 https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/XO7eDWt_RaCyVFynaZsftA.vhwY43mas9VqIf5gM0Swqo

 The bike as pictured weighs 24 pounds. It was 21 pounds with no toolbag 
 and lighter wheels and 30mm tires. It's possible to get lighter steel (or 
 titanium) bikes, but then the costs go up dramatically as you're likely to 
 have to go custom with correspondingly high wait times.

 On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 5:26 PM John Bokman  wrote:

> Thanks for the review! As a daily drop-bar Sam rider, I'm well 
> accustomed to the Rivendell ride. It's been a great bike for my uses: 
> commuting, heavy loading. But, as a light (155# @ 6 foot tall), spinner,  
> I 
> wish for a bike that is lighter, less stiff, and more flexible to ride 
> when 
> I want to charge hills and generally explore at speed on day rides. I am 
> interested in this frame for these reasons. But I hesitate because I'm 
> not 
> sure of the tubing specs. I don't want it to be too much bike for me! Sam 
> is less than ideal on the rides I imagine doing on the Roadini.
>
> I'd love to see some photos of your machine if you have any available.
>
> John
> Portland, OR
>
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 10:04:16 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Max tire width according to Rivendell is 42mm. I don't like to push 
>> it that close, so I think in practice I won't run anything more than 
>> 38mm 
>> actual width. I have no TCO on the Roadini. The TCO exists on my custom 
>> touring bike, which has a geometry copied from the 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 
>> with a longer chainstay and lower BB.
>>
>> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:55 AM Ian A  wrote:
>>
>>> Piaw,
>>>
>>> Thank you for your review. You mention fitting nominally 40mm wide 
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Roadini 1000 mile review

[John Bokman]

Eric, thanks for your thoughts. I was guessing the frame tubes were about 
as thick as my Sam. I know there is a lot more to how a bike feels than 
purely frame tube size, but I'd be reluctant to go to the same tubing for 
this type of bike and my desired riding.

On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 4:01:04 AM UTC-7 Eric Daume wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I’m 6’3”, 180 pounds, and briefly had a 61cm Roadini. It has some weird 
> tapering to the tubes, but I think it was basically double OS on that size. 
> Maybe 28.6 tapering to 31.8 or something. It felt stiff and not 
> particularly responsive to me. It’s not like an old vintage road bike with 
> a 25.4mm top tube. 
>
> My ‘84 Trek rides better, but doesn’t have the tire clearance or long 
> wheelbase of the Roadini. 
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Friday, May 19, 2023, John Bokman  wrote:
>
>> Piaw, thanks for the comments and pictures! Looks like you're having 
>> loads of fun.
>>
>> I would likely be running  downtube shifters and a 2x with a long cage 
>> derailieur to get my low gears. You must be running, what,  an 11x50? I'm 
>> sorry for the redundant question if it's listed on the website,  but are 
>> these oversized tubes? They look to be 28.6cm at least? Yet you still feel 
>> it is a compliant frame? (No judgement, just trying to decipher.)
>>
>> On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:35:17 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Here are some pictures of my Roadini: 
>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/XO7eDWt_RaCyVFynaZsftA.vhwY43mas9VqIf5gM0Swqo
>>>
>>> The bike as pictured weighs 24 pounds. It was 21 pounds with no toolbag 
>>> and lighter wheels and 30mm tires. It's possible to get lighter steel (or 
>>> titanium) bikes, but then the costs go up dramatically as you're likely to 
>>> have to go custom with correspondingly high wait times.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 5:26 PM John Bokman  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the review! As a daily drop-bar Sam rider, I'm well 
 accustomed to the Rivendell ride. It's been a great bike for my uses: 
 commuting, heavy loading. But, as a light (155# @ 6 foot tall), spinner,  
 I 
 wish for a bike that is lighter, less stiff, and more flexible to ride 
 when 
 I want to charge hills and generally explore at speed on day rides. I am 
 interested in this frame for these reasons. But I hesitate because I'm not 
 sure of the tubing specs. I don't want it to be too much bike for me! Sam 
 is less than ideal on the rides I imagine doing on the Roadini.

 I'd love to see some photos of your machine if you have any available.

 John
 Portland, OR

 On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 10:04:16 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Max tire width according to Rivendell is 42mm. I don't like to push it 
> that close, so I think in practice I won't run anything more than 38mm 
> actual width. I have no TCO on the Roadini. The TCO exists on my custom 
> touring bike, which has a geometry copied from the 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 
> with a longer chainstay and lower BB.
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:55 AM Ian A  wrote:
>
>> Piaw,
>>
>> Thank you for your review. You mention fitting nominally 40mm wide 
>> tires and I would be curious to know what the maximum tire widths with 
>> and 
>> without fenders are? 
>>
>> Your review in the final paragraph draws reference to toe-clip 
>> overlap (TCO) and I was wondering if you could expand on that. Do you 
>> experience TCO on the Roadini?  I wasn't quite sure if you were 
>> referencing 
>> the Roadini or an idea for a custom in this snippet of the review "  It 
>> gets rid of the toe clip overlap (which doesn't bother me but now that I 
>> know how to solve it without making a bike handle badly".
>>
>> IanA Alberta Canada
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:54:06 AM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> I've now ridden my Roadini for 1000 miles, and I wrote my review: 
>>> https://blog.piaw.net/2023/05/rivendell-roadini-1000-mile-review.html
>>>
>>> I think I'm agreeing with the folks who say that gravel bikes are 
>>> simply 1990s style mountain bikes with 700c wheels and 1x drivetrains.
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Brian Turner]

There was a Tosco-moose version for a short time, and I’m not sure if it was only that one production run… but they do exist.I would snag one of those in a heartbeat if they ever made them again, because I love the Tosco bar. Would love to try a bit stiffer version too.On May 20, 2023, at 1:03 PM, iamkeith  wrote:I had them on my clem, and now on my susie.  I got rid of the clem to get the susie, but am gettingthe clem back and will move the boscomoose back too.  I have a love/hate relationship with them, but went through a half dozen other bars on the clem, always going back to the boscomoose.On the plus side, they are the only version that's stiff enough.  The aluminum ones were so flexy, I wasn't even comfortable using the bike while standing out of the saddle.  Comfort-wise  they are "almost" ideal.I regularly wish they had a longer stem reach and, especially, that the ends pointed down toward the back more.  It's a bit wheelbarrow-like, and hard to keep from sliding forward.  I also wish they had less rise, were quite a bit wider, and had more flare as well. (Or "less" flare?  I wish that they were a bit less  bent back, or turned out more.)All of these things - except the ideal moose construction - are solved by the steel Tosco.  I so hope they'll do a moose version, but its not made by Nito unfortunately.  I'll kerp both bars for variety but, if I only had one, it'd be the Tosco.  I actually bought a second one so I never have to worry about losing it.  The only problem is that it's 31.8 and it is VERY hard to find stems that are long enough.  150mm +/- .Ill find and post pics.On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-6 Paul Richardson wrote:howdy folksi've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love to hear your experience before i take the plunge!thanks in advancepaultakoma park, md.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

[Piaw Na]

According to 
Rivendell Reader Index - The smell of cold 
http://notfine.com/rivreader/RR-index.pdf it was rivendell reader #11
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 9:58:59 AM UTC-7 Patrick Moore wrote:

> I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got 
> sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even 
> indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm 
> using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've 
> never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar 
> longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp 
> cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10 
> sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.
>
> It's really wonderful how well Barcons (and 8 sp era rd) work with 10 sp 
> cogs and an 11 sp chain; every time I ride the bike in question I'm 
> delighted. Much better, IMO, than friction 7 and 9 speed even with fully 
> stock cassettes and chains.
>
> Do you have a link to or PDF of your halfstep article? Or -- since there 
> are RR archives -- a publication # or date? I'm tempted to set up a half 
> step drivetrain on a bike with disk brakes just because ... (already have 
> another bike with non-aero levers and disk brakes).
>
> On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:29 AM Piaw Na  wrote:
>
>> I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and 
>> granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the 
>> sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual 
>> sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over 
>> to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced. 
>> Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be 
>> quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain 
>> (about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually 
>> shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between 
>> sprockets when you shift and have to trim. 
>>
>> -- 
>>
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/rbw-owners-bunch/16991079-f9b3-4fbb-a510-7563d65396e6n%40googlegroups.com
>>  
>> 
>> .
>>
>
>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Wanting to try an AHH 47.5 or 51 in Boston

[Stephanie A.]

Your responses are all so helpful! Roberta, especially, it's good to know 
that the Platy wheelbase likely won't work for Amtrak and city bus bike 
racks--I'm car free.

I finally got some paint sticks to take a more accurate PBH measurement. 
I'm 5' 5" and have an 80.6cm PBH. I'd like to be able to run either drop 
bars or swept back bars. It looks like the 51 oughta work with different 
stems. Barwise, I've got an albatross and an RM3 dirt drop. 

My current bike is a 42. That's what was available at the time and I needed 
a bike. I've made it work. I installed a 350mm seat post because I was over 
the max height of the OEM post. The flat bars felt uncomfortably close no 
matter where I put them with the bike's 85mm reach stem. I swapped to 
albatross bars and changed the 80mm reach stem for a 135mm (124 w/ the 
upward angle) with the hopes of being able to use both a semi-upright and 
my preferred stretched out position. That's been working surprisingly well. 

Current bike came with 700x38 and the geometry is (* indicates a rough 
measurement from me because established geometry numbers were not 
available):
Stack: 53*
Reach: 42*
TT Length: 55.3
HT Angle: 73*
ST Angle: 73
BB Drop: 6
Front center: 61.2
Chainstay length: 45
Wheelbase: 105.5

Idk why I added all of that. But now I've typed it all out and it's 
staying. Here's to hoping I can get an AHH in the relatively near future! 
Until then, I have a bike that's getting the job done.

On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 4:57:12 AM UTC-4 Roberta wrote:

> Hi, Stephanie. 
>
> I have both and love both, set up similarly, but like the Homer ride a bit 
> more. 2019 Homer (last gen, 54.5cm) and 2021 Platy (first gen, 55cm). 
> Wheelbase is 43” for Homer and 47” for Platy, which is too long for city 
> bus bike rack (I’ll post pics later) and Amtrak roll on service. If you’re 
>  planning to use either on bus rack, I suggest getting someone to measure 
> wheelbase for fit. 
>
> My pbh is 83cm and I can straddle the Homer if I’m wearing sneakers, which 
> is my standard riding shoe. But I do worry when I jump off quickly. I’ve 
> been lucky enough to have ridden many Riv models and think, for me, bigger 
> is better, when I “can” fit either size. 
>
> Things to consider for sizing when you straddle sizes: handlebar type, 
> reach, tire size (bigger tires raise bike), thickness of riding shoe soles, 
> head tube height. 
>
> Trying them out is best, especially that 51cm to rule out “too big.”  
>
> Roberta 
> Philadelphia 
> On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 10:11:06 AM UTC-4 Stephanie A. wrote:
>
>> Hi everyone! As I continue (spending probably way too much money and 
>> time) altering my pandemic bike (which looks splendid but is probably a 
>> size too small and, gasp, aluminum), I've been scoping out which Riv I 
>> might buy in the future. I'm between an AHH and a Platy, heavily leaning 
>> toward the AHH to have a zippier feeling bike and a diamond frame. As much 
>> as I love seeing people touring and bike packing, I'm not sure that I'll 
>> ever do more than commute, lug sometimes heavy CSA shares or work stuff, 
>> and ride on pavement or packed dirt. The AHH seems to give me the 
>> flexibility to go at least a little beyond that if I want to.
>>
>> What I'm most unsure of is sizing. My PBH is right on the line at around 
>> 80cm. I want to avoid buying an expensive non-returnable new or used bike 
>> and feeling like I should have gotten a different size--or different model.
>>
>> To that end, does anyone in the Boston area have an AHH in 47.5 or 51 
>> that they'd be willing to let me stand over in the Common?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>> Stephanie, who is really hoping that the more common size of 51 will fit 
>> so that her chances of eventually getting a gold AHH are moderately higher 
>> than if only the 47.5 fits
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[iamkeith]

I had them on my clem, and now on my susie.  I got rid of the clem to get 
the susie, but am gettingthe clem back and will move the boscomoose back 
too.  I have a love/hate relationship with them, but went through a half 
dozen other bars on the clem, always going back to the boscomoose.

On the plus side, they are the only version that's stiff enough.  The 
aluminum ones were so flexy, I wasn't even comfortable using the bike while 
standing out of the saddle.  Comfort-wise  they are "almost" ideal.

I regularly wish they had a longer stem reach and, especially, that the 
ends pointed down toward the back more.  It's a bit wheelbarrow-like, and 
hard to keep from sliding forward.  I also wish they had less rise, were 
quite a bit wider, and had more flare as well. (Or "less" flare?  I wish 
that they were a bit less  bent back, or turned out more.)

All of these things - except the ideal moose construction - are solved by 
the steel Tosco.  I so hope they'll do a moose version, but its not made by 
Nito unfortunately.  I'll kerp both bars for variety but, if I only had 
one, it'd be the Tosco.  I actually bought a second one so I never have to 
worry about losing it.  The only problem is that it's 31.8 and it is VERY 
hard to find stems that are long enough.  150mm +/- .

Ill find and post pics.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 10:41:14 AM UTC-6 Paul Richardson wrote:

> howdy folks
>
> i've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very 
> many pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you 
> like them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on 
> the bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness 
> obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love 
> to hear your experience before i take the plunge!
>
> thanks in advance
> paul
> takoma park, md.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

[Patrick Moore]

I've been home-building cassettes for 20 years at least after I got
sufficiently frustrated with stock combinations; in friction (and even
indexed) they have shifted fine. I agree about 11 sp chains; at least, I'm
using an 11 on my (custom, built with Miche cogs) 10 sp cassette and I've
never had better shifting. Have read many places that 10 sp chains ar
longer lasting than 9, 11 than 10. Perhaps will try making an 11 sp
cassette with my 10 sp Miche cogs by substituting 11 sp spacers for the 10
sp ones and will try a 12 sp chain.

It's really wonderful how well Barcons (and 8 sp era rd) work with 10 sp
cogs and an 11 sp chain; every time I ride the bike in question I'm
delighted. Much better, IMO, than friction 7 and 9 speed even with fully
stock cassettes and chains.

Do you have a link to or PDF of your halfstep article? Or -- since there
are RR archives -- a publication # or date? I'm tempted to set up a half
step drivetrain on a bike with disk brakes just because ... (already have
another bike with non-aero levers and disk brakes).

On Sat, May 20, 2023 at 8:29 AM Piaw Na  wrote:

> I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and
> granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the
> sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual
> sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over
> to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced.
> Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be
> quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain
> (about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually
> shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between
> sprockets when you shift and have to trim.
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> 
> .
>


-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] boscomoose - pictures, experiences, comparisons?

[Paul Richardson]

howdy folks

i've been doing the best digging i can and cannot seem to wrangle very many 
pictures of rivs with boscomoose bars.  have you tried them?  did you like 
them?  i ride big bikes, so i'm not too concerned about knee strike on the 
bar-ends, which i gather can be a drawback for some.  their fixedness 
obviously makes for a riskier purchase than separate stem+bars, so i'd love 
to hear your experience before i take the plunge!

thanks in advance
paul
takoma park, md.

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[RBW] Re: ISO tiny older Riv (47ish) non-step thru

[Sean Steinle]

Found a beautiful 50cm Toyo AHH that I think is going to work, thanks all!

On Tuesday, May 16, 2023 at 8:09:29 PM UTC-5 Sean Steinle wrote:

> Looking for a tiny older Riv for my 5'2" wife, with decent tire clearance. 
> Thinking Saluki, Homer, Atlantis, maybe others, Bleriot, San Marcos, etc? 
>
> Thanks,
> Sean
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Getting in over my head

[Piaw Na]

I used a hybrid 2X crossover/half stepped 7 sp (half-stepped the middle 5, 
13 outer with 48/92" for downhills, 32 inner with 45/35" for climbing) for 
a while that worked very well (Kelly Take-Offs were the perfect shifter), 
but there was a big jump to the 35" low gear. Riv content: 1995 Riv custom 
downgraded to daily commuting duty.


I wrote an early article for the Rivendell Reader about half-step and 
granny. I works great with 7 speed freewheels where you can pick the 
sprockets. But after cassettes were introduced you couldn't pick individual 
sprockets any more so it became impractical. At that point I switched over 
to crossover + granny, especially when 11-34 cassettes were introduced. 
Despite Grant's assertions, the new 11s cassettes and chains seem to be 
quite reliable --- the 11s chain definitely lasts longer than the 9s chain 
(about 30% longer), and the 11s cassettes on a friction shifter actually 
shift better --- there's less chance that you'll get stuck in between 
sprockets when you shift and have to trim. 

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Re: [RBW] Roadini 1000 mile review

[Piaw Na]

I got out my calipers --- the top tube, head tube, and seat tubes are 29mm 
(most likely 28.6), and the downtube is 31.5mm (most likely 31.8). It 
doesn't feel stiff to me, but since I broke 2 ti frames, my guess is each 
time I broke one my custom builder proceeded to build me bikes with 
thicker/heavier tubing, so it's quite possible that my ti touring bike is 
so stiff that OS tubing feels right. The seatpost is 26.8mm, so that means 
the tube is 1.2mm thick at the ends and thinner in the middle. Since the 
tubes used by Rivendell aren't disclosed, you'd have to ride it to see how 
stiff you think it is. I don't have a 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 to compare, but 
when I rode that one I wasn't nearly as strong or as abusive to bicycles as 
I am now. I was considerably lighter (113 pounds), and wasn't taking my 
road bikes off pavement, jumping ditches, etc. (That RB-1 died when a Volvo 
hit me)

Looking at this 
page: 
https://www.veloduo.co.uk/blogs/news/steel-frame-tubing-fact-and-mythology, 
the typical steel frame seat tube has an outside diameter of 28.6 (which is 
pretty much what I measured). I know Grant is conservative about tubing 
(which is why I'm so confident about riding the Roadini off pavement), so a 
wall thickness of 1.2mm (being 0.4mm thicker than the 531 standard) 
wouldn't surprise me.
On Saturday, May 20, 2023 at 4:01:04 AM UTC-7 Eric Daume wrote:

> Hi John,
>
> I’m 6’3”, 180 pounds, and briefly had a 61cm Roadini. It has some weird 
> tapering to the tubes, but I think it was basically double OS on that size. 
> Maybe 28.6 tapering to 31.8 or something. It felt stiff and not 
> particularly responsive to me. It’s not like an old vintage road bike with 
> a 25.4mm top tube. 
>
> My ‘84 Trek rides better, but doesn’t have the tire clearance or long 
> wheelbase of the Roadini. 
>
> Eric
>
>
> On Friday, May 19, 2023, John Bokman  wrote:
>
>> Piaw, thanks for the comments and pictures! Looks like you're having 
>> loads of fun.
>>
>> I would likely be running  downtube shifters and a 2x with a long cage 
>> derailieur to get my low gears. You must be running, what,  an 11x50? I'm 
>> sorry for the redundant question if it's listed on the website,  but are 
>> these oversized tubes? They look to be 28.6cm at least? Yet you still feel 
>> it is a compliant frame? (No judgement, just trying to decipher.)
>>
>> On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:35:17 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> Here are some pictures of my Roadini: 
>>> https://www.amazon.com/photos/shared/XO7eDWt_RaCyVFynaZsftA.vhwY43mas9VqIf5gM0Swqo
>>>
>>> The bike as pictured weighs 24 pounds. It was 21 pounds with no toolbag 
>>> and lighter wheels and 30mm tires. It's possible to get lighter steel (or 
>>> titanium) bikes, but then the costs go up dramatically as you're likely to 
>>> have to go custom with correspondingly high wait times.
>>>
>>> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 5:26 PM John Bokman  wrote:
>>>
 Thanks for the review! As a daily drop-bar Sam rider, I'm well 
 accustomed to the Rivendell ride. It's been a great bike for my uses: 
 commuting, heavy loading. But, as a light (155# @ 6 foot tall), spinner,  
 I 
 wish for a bike that is lighter, less stiff, and more flexible to ride 
 when 
 I want to charge hills and generally explore at speed on day rides. I am 
 interested in this frame for these reasons. But I hesitate because I'm not 
 sure of the tubing specs. I don't want it to be too much bike for me! Sam 
 is less than ideal on the rides I imagine doing on the Roadini.

 I'd love to see some photos of your machine if you have any available.

 John
 Portland, OR

 On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 10:04:16 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Max tire width according to Rivendell is 42mm. I don't like to push it 
> that close, so I think in practice I won't run anything more than 38mm 
> actual width. I have no TCO on the Roadini. The TCO exists on my custom 
> touring bike, which has a geometry copied from the 1993 Bridgestone RB-1 
> with a longer chainstay and lower BB.
>
> On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:55 AM Ian A  wrote:
>
>> Piaw,
>>
>> Thank you for your review. You mention fitting nominally 40mm wide 
>> tires and I would be curious to know what the maximum tire widths with 
>> and 
>> without fenders are? 
>>
>> Your review in the final paragraph draws reference to toe-clip 
>> overlap (TCO) and I was wondering if you could expand on that. Do you 
>> experience TCO on the Roadini?  I wasn't quite sure if you were 
>> referencing 
>> the Roadini or an idea for a custom in this snippet of the review "  It 
>> gets rid of the toe clip overlap (which doesn't bother me but now that I 
>> know how to solve it without making a bike handle badly".
>>
>> IanA Alberta Canada
>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:54:06 AM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Roadini 1000 mile review

[Eric Daume]

Hi John,

I’m 6’3”, 180 pounds, and briefly had a 61cm Roadini. It has some weird
tapering to the tubes, but I think it was basically double OS on that size.
Maybe 28.6 tapering to 31.8 or something. It felt stiff and not
particularly responsive to me. It’s not like an old vintage road bike with
a 25.4mm top tube.

My ‘84 Trek rides better, but doesn’t have the tire clearance or long
wheelbase of the Roadini.

Eric

On Friday, May 19, 2023, John Bokman  wrote:

> Piaw, thanks for the comments and pictures! Looks like you're having loads
> of fun.
>
> I would likely be running  downtube shifters and a 2x with a long cage
> derailieur to get my low gears. You must be running, what,  an 11x50? I'm
> sorry for the redundant question if it's listed on the website,  but are
> these oversized tubes? They look to be 28.6cm at least? Yet you still feel
> it is a compliant frame? (No judgement, just trying to decipher.)
>
> On Friday, May 19, 2023 at 5:35:17 PM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Here are some pictures of my Roadini: https://www.amazon.
>> com/photos/shared/XO7eDWt_RaCyVFynaZsftA.vhwY43mas9VqIf5gM0Swqo
>>
>> The bike as pictured weighs 24 pounds. It was 21 pounds with no toolbag
>> and lighter wheels and 30mm tires. It's possible to get lighter steel (or
>> titanium) bikes, but then the costs go up dramatically as you're likely to
>> have to go custom with correspondingly high wait times.
>>
>> On Fri, May 19, 2023 at 5:26 PM John Bokman  wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks for the review! As a daily drop-bar Sam rider, I'm well
>>> accustomed to the Rivendell ride. It's been a great bike for my uses:
>>> commuting, heavy loading. But, as a light (155# @ 6 foot tall), spinner,  I
>>> wish for a bike that is lighter, less stiff, and more flexible to ride when
>>> I want to charge hills and generally explore at speed on day rides. I am
>>> interested in this frame for these reasons. But I hesitate because I'm not
>>> sure of the tubing specs. I don't want it to be too much bike for me! Sam
>>> is less than ideal on the rides I imagine doing on the Roadini.
>>>
>>> I'd love to see some photos of your machine if you have any available.
>>>
>>> John
>>> Portland, OR
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 10:04:16 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>
 Max tire width according to Rivendell is 42mm. I don't like to push it
 that close, so I think in practice I won't run anything more than 38mm
 actual width. I have no TCO on the Roadini. The TCO exists on my custom
 touring bike, which has a geometry copied from the 1993 Bridgestone RB-1
 with a longer chainstay and lower BB.

 On Wed, May 17, 2023 at 9:55 AM Ian A  wrote:

> Piaw,
>
> Thank you for your review. You mention fitting nominally 40mm wide
> tires and I would be curious to know what the maximum tire widths with and
> without fenders are?
>
> Your review in the final paragraph draws reference to toe-clip overlap
> (TCO) and I was wondering if you could expand on that. Do you experience
> TCO on the Roadini?  I wasn't quite sure if you were referencing the
> Roadini or an idea for a custom in this snippet of the review "  It
> gets rid of the toe clip overlap (which doesn't bother me but now that I
> know how to solve it without making a bike handle badly".
>
> IanA Alberta Canada
> On Wednesday, May 17, 2023 at 9:54:06 AM UTC-6 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> I've now ridden my Roadini for 1000 miles, and I wrote my review:
>> https://blog.piaw.net/2023/05/rivendell-roadini-1000-mile-review.html
>>
>> I think I'm agreeing with the folks who say that gravel bikes are
>> simply 1990s style mountain bikes with 700c wheels and 1x drivetrains.
>>
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