Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Mark Reimer]

I'm also a big fan of jack brown green. I normally ride Thunderburt 2.1 or 
2.25 in the lightest most supple variant (whatever it's called, Schwalbe 
naming protocol is in serious need of a rebrand) and Barlow Pass EL 38's on 
the pavement. They are all wonderful. But the Jack Brown rolls wonderfully 
as well (perhaps ever so slightly behind the Compass tire), but is 
significantly tougher and more resistant to flats. I would LOVE a Jack 
Brown green in a 42 or even 50 for loaded touring. 33.333 still seems so 
skinny to me when the bike is loaded to the max. Thinking the Schwalbe 
Super Moto might be the next tire I get...

On Thursday, March 24, 2016 at 1:15:56 PM UTC-5, NickBull wrote:
>
> Except at 40mph downhill as you hit a tight curve and discover your front 
> tire is going flat.
>
> That said, "flatproof" tires are not flatproof in my experience, so then I 
> figure I may as well go with supple.  But not without a slight increase in 
> risk.
>
> Nick
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 2:18:51 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> On 03/23/2016 10:56 AM, olof...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>> How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, 
>> but methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life. 
>>
>>
>> Having a flat tire isn't what you'd call an existential risk.  It's more 
>> of a minor irritation.
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[NickBull]

Except at 40mph downhill as you hit a tight curve and discover your front 
tire is going flat.

That said, "flatproof" tires are not flatproof in my experience, so then I 
figure I may as well go with supple.  But not without a slight increase in 
risk.

Nick

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 2:18:51 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
>
> On 03/23/2016 10:56 AM, olof...@gmail.com  wrote:
>
> How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, but 
> methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life. 
>
>
> Having a flat tire isn't what you'd call an existential risk.  It's more 
> of a minor irritation.
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Toshi Takeuchi]

The Grand Bois Hetre is renowned for its longevity and relatively low flat
rate.  I use the regular version and it's cheaper than the EL.  I never
heard of anyone regretting the use of these tires, although maybe someone
here will prove me wrong!

Toshi


On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 3:17 PM, ian m  wrote:

> Living in Pittsburgh, PA these both look like the roads I ride daily,
> along with some nowhere-near-level brick and thrashed cobbestone streets
> thrown in for good measure. I think the smoothest surfaces I ride often
> tend to be the trail shortcuts through the large city park I live next to.
>
> Interesting responses in here so far. The Thunder Burt stands out as a
> tire I would never have thought to look at. Unfortunately the 650b hasn't
> really made any inroads here yet so I have basically 0 options for looking
> at tires aside from the stray 27.5 MTB knobby that a couple shops might
> stock. Lots of fat tires though! So experimenting with a half dozen
> different models of tires I have to mailorder for $100+/pair is not a
> feasible option for me.
>
> The supple vs. strong dichotomy is exactly what I'm hoping to get beyond.
> It's the in-between I'm interested in. I'm a light, non-aggressive rider
> and rarely get flats. I haven't flatted a Schwalbe in who knows how long
> and have only pinch flatted the Jack Browns running too low PSI.  I don't
> plan on replacing those until they wear down to the tube. Also, what makes
> them "stout"?
>
> Longevity though is one of the deciding factors for me. It's kept me from
> getting a set of Bruce Gordon RnRs and also from Compass and the
> Pari-Motos. I'm not interested in an "event tire" no matter how nice it
> rides. I need something that will stand up to time in the saddle more than
> I need something that will protect me from poor road conditions.
>
>
>
> On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 10:08:49 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>>
>> On 03/22/2016 06:27 PM, ian m wrote:
>>
>> But would I notice the same change if I went from the light Jack Browns
>> on my SS to Compass tires?  I would like to upgrade from the bottom of the
>> line wire bead Schwalbe's currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a
>> wobble in the bead) to a lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the
>> supple-itude?
>>
>>
>> Ride on chipseal and badly alligatored pavement, something with a nasty
>> coarse surface that looks like this
>>
>>
>>
>> or this
>>
>>
>>
>> You'll feel the difference right away.
>>
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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Justin August]

I agree. I also have had the same if not fewer flats since swapping to wider, 
more supple tires at lower pressure. Adding in a couple ounces of Stan's to my 
tubes was more out of boredom and tinkering than real need. 

-Justin

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[James Chang]

Hi Lungimsam,

I recently switched Rumpkins to Hetre and it felt more like a bike change
than a tire swap.  The difference is staggering and nothing short of
amazing.

James Chang

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 10:58 PM, Lungimsam  wrote:

> 0 the worst - 10 the best:
>
> 700c Kenda -5
> 700c Specialized Armadillo-5
> 700c Gatorskin-7
>
> 650b Swifty-4
> 650b original Rumpkin-6
> 650b Marathon Green Guard-8.5
> 650b Hetre-10
> 650b Cypress-10
> 650b Loup Loup-10
>
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-- 
*** club sandwich, not seal ***

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Steve Palincsar]

Compass is as close to you as it is to me, no farther away than the mailbox.

On 03/23/2016 06:17 PM, ian m wrote:
Unfortunately the 650b hasn't really made any inroads here yet so I 
have basically 0 options for looking at tires 


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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[ian m]

Living in Pittsburgh, PA these both look like the roads I ride daily, along 
with some nowhere-near-level brick and thrashed cobbestone streets thrown 
in for good measure. I think the smoothest surfaces I ride often tend to be 
the trail shortcuts through the large city park I live next to.

Interesting responses in here so far. The Thunder Burt stands out as a tire 
I would never have thought to look at. Unfortunately the 650b hasn't really 
made any inroads here yet so I have basically 0 options for looking at 
tires aside from the stray 27.5 MTB knobby that a couple shops might stock. 
Lots of fat tires though! So experimenting with a half dozen different 
models of tires I have to mailorder for $100+/pair is not a feasible option 
for me.

The supple vs. strong dichotomy is exactly what I'm hoping to get beyond. 
It's the in-between I'm interested in. I'm a light, non-aggressive rider 
and rarely get flats. I haven't flatted a Schwalbe in who knows how long 
and have only pinch flatted the Jack Browns running too low PSI.  I don't 
plan on replacing those until they wear down to the tube. Also, what makes 
them "stout"?

Longevity though is one of the deciding factors for me. It's kept me from 
getting a set of Bruce Gordon RnRs and also from Compass and the 
Pari-Motos. I'm not interested in an "event tire" no matter how nice it 
rides. I need something that will stand up to time in the saddle more than 
I need something that will protect me from poor road conditions.


On Tuesday, March 22, 2016 at 10:08:49 PM UTC-4, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
>
> On 03/22/2016 06:27 PM, ian m wrote:
>
> But would I notice the same change if I went from the light Jack Browns on 
> my SS to Compass tires?  I would like to upgrade from the bottom of the 
> line wire bead Schwalbe's currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a 
> wobble in the bead) to a lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the 
> supple-itude?
>
>
> Ride on chipseal and badly alligatored pavement, something with a nasty 
> coarse surface that looks like this
>
>
>
> or this
>
>
>
> You'll feel the difference right away.
>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[cyclotourist]

Jack Brown Greens are great! I think they're pretty far up there on
the suppleness scale. Just a step below Grand Bois or Challenge and a
step above Marathon Supremes.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 1:40 PM, Kieran J  wrote:
> I completely agree with your assessment of the JBGs.
>
> A lot of people don't consider them to be in the same league as the Compass
> offerings, but I totally do. They get slagged a lot for being too stout or
> having too much rolling resistance, but I don't see it. There's something
> just "right" about the way they ride. It's the only tire I've ever had on my
> Rambouillet - no big desire to upgrade, in spite of the dearth of choices in
> 700x32-35.
>
> I have the standard Barlows on my commuter bike and they are as nice, but
> not measurably better than the JBGs, IMO.
>
> KJ
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 4:08:38 PM UTC-4, John Bokman wrote:
>>
>> Of all the tires I've ridden that come to mind (Schwalbe 26x2.0 Big Apple;
>> Pasella 700c Tour Guard and non-Tour guard in 32, 35, 37 mm; Soma New
>> Express 700x37; Jack Brown Green 700x33.333 and Compass Barlow Pass EL
>> 700x38) they all have their purpose. Some are more "fun" than others. Some
>> wear better, some have better grip on pavement, some are better
>> off-pavementTo the question at hand: Would I notice the difference
>> between a Jack Brown and a "Supple tire"? No, I would not. I think the Jack
>> Brown Green is the best riding tire I've tried in 700c. It rolls as well as
>> the Barlow and feels livelier. In fact I prefer the ride of my (albeit
>> narrower) 700x33.333 Jack Browns vs. the 700x38 Barlow Els. But this is not
>> to say there is no cost to this choice. The Jack Browns, in my experience,
>> do not last very long, and puncture more easily than the other tires I've
>> listed (can't compare to the Barlows on this score yet because I have not
>> enough miles on them to know). Interesting to me, they're not as "supple" as
>> the Barlows. Rest assured, the Jack Browns are supple enough to provide
>> exceptional ride quality, if that's what's making them ride so well. In my
>> mind, weight makes  big difference in the liveliness of the ride. Both the
>> Jack Brown Greens (350 grams) and Barlow Pass Els (lighter still) are light.
>> When I switch from Pasellas or Soma New Express to the Jacks or the Barlows,
>> I notice an immediate improvement in liveliness. Depends what matters most
>> to you. All are good tires for a particular purpose. I haven't yet found one
>> tire to do it all - though I'm still looking.


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-- 
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David

Member, Supreme Council of Cyberspace

"it isn't a contest. Just enjoy the ride." - Seth Vidal

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Kieran J]

Err, I meant wealth - not dearth.

KJ


On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 4:40:52 PM UTC-4, Kieran J wrote:
>
> I completely agree with your assessment of the JBGs. 
>
> A lot of people don't consider them to be in the same league as the 
> Compass offerings, but I totally do. They get slagged a lot for being too 
> stout or having too much rolling resistance, but I don't see it. There's 
> something just "right" about the way they ride. It's the only tire I've 
> ever had on my Rambouillet - no big desire to upgrade, in spite of the 
> dearth of choices in 700x32-35. 
>
> I have the standard Barlows on my commuter bike and they are as nice, but 
> not measurably better than the JBGs, IMO.
>
> KJ
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 4:08:38 PM UTC-4, John Bokman wrote:
>>
>> Of all the tires I've ridden that come to mind (Schwalbe 26x2.0 Big 
>> Apple; Pasella 700c Tour Guard and non-Tour guard in 32, 35, 37 mm; Soma 
>> New Express 700x37; Jack Brown Green 700x33.333 and Compass Barlow Pass EL 
>> 700x38) they all have their purpose. Some are more "fun" than others. Some 
>> wear better, some have better grip on pavement, some are better 
>> off-pavementTo the question at hand: Would I notice the difference 
>> between a Jack Brown and a "Supple tire"? No, I would not. I think the Jack 
>> Brown Green is the best riding tire I've tried in 700c. It rolls as well as 
>> the Barlow and feels livelier. In fact I prefer the ride of my (albeit 
>> narrower) 700x33.333 Jack Browns vs. the 700x38 Barlow Els. But this is not 
>> to say there is no cost to this choice. The Jack Browns, in my experience, 
>> do not last very long, and puncture more easily than the other tires I've 
>> listed (can't compare to the Barlows on this score yet because I have not 
>> enough miles on them to know). Interesting to me, they're not as "supple" 
>> as the Barlows. Rest assured, the Jack Browns are supple enough to provide 
>> exceptional ride quality, if that's what's making them ride so well. In my 
>> mind, weight makes  big difference in the liveliness of the ride. Both the 
>> Jack Brown Greens (350 grams) and Barlow Pass Els (lighter still) are 
>> light. When I switch from Pasellas or Soma New Express to the Jacks or the 
>> Barlows, I notice an immediate improvement in liveliness. Depends what 
>> matters most to you. All are good tires for a particular purpose. I haven't 
>> yet found one tire to do it all - though I'm still looking.
>>
>>>


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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Kieran J]

I completely agree with your assessment of the JBGs. 

A lot of people don't consider them to be in the same league as the Compass 
offerings, but I totally do. They get slagged a lot for being too stout or 
having too much rolling resistance, but I don't see it. There's something 
just "right" about the way they ride. It's the only tire I've ever had on 
my Rambouillet - no big desire to upgrade, in spite of the dearth of 
choices in 700x32-35. 

I have the standard Barlows on my commuter bike and they are as nice, but 
not measurably better than the JBGs, IMO.

KJ


On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 4:08:38 PM UTC-4, John Bokman wrote:
>
> Of all the tires I've ridden that come to mind (Schwalbe 26x2.0 Big Apple; 
> Pasella 700c Tour Guard and non-Tour guard in 32, 35, 37 mm; Soma New 
> Express 700x37; Jack Brown Green 700x33.333 and Compass Barlow Pass EL 
> 700x38) they all have their purpose. Some are more "fun" than others. Some 
> wear better, some have better grip on pavement, some are better 
> off-pavementTo the question at hand: Would I notice the difference 
> between a Jack Brown and a "Supple tire"? No, I would not. I think the Jack 
> Brown Green is the best riding tire I've tried in 700c. It rolls as well as 
> the Barlow and feels livelier. In fact I prefer the ride of my (albeit 
> narrower) 700x33.333 Jack Browns vs. the 700x38 Barlow Els. But this is not 
> to say there is no cost to this choice. The Jack Browns, in my experience, 
> do not last very long, and puncture more easily than the other tires I've 
> listed (can't compare to the Barlows on this score yet because I have not 
> enough miles on them to know). Interesting to me, they're not as "supple" 
> as the Barlows. Rest assured, the Jack Browns are supple enough to provide 
> exceptional ride quality, if that's what's making them ride so well. In my 
> mind, weight makes  big difference in the liveliness of the ride. Both the 
> Jack Brown Greens (350 grams) and Barlow Pass Els (lighter still) are 
> light. When I switch from Pasellas or Soma New Express to the Jacks or the 
> Barlows, I notice an immediate improvement in liveliness. Depends what 
> matters most to you. All are good tires for a particular purpose. I haven't 
> yet found one tire to do it all - though I'm still looking.
>
>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[John Bokman]

Of all the tires I've ridden that come to mind (Schwalbe 26x2.0 Big Apple; 
Pasella 700c Tour Guard and non-Tour guard in 32, 35, 37 mm; Soma New 
Express 700x37; Jack Brown Green 700x33.333 and Compass Barlow Pass EL 
700x38) they all have their purpose. Some are more "fun" than others. Some 
wear better, some have better grip on pavement, some are better 
off-pavementTo the question at hand: Would I notice the difference 
between a Jack Brown and a "Supple tire"? No, I would not. I think the Jack 
Brown Green is the best riding tire I've tried in 700c. It rolls as well as 
the Barlow and feels livelier. In fact I prefer the ride of my (albeit 
narrower) 700x33.333 Jack Browns vs. the 700x38 Barlow Els. But this is not 
to say there is no cost to this choice. The Jack Browns, in my experience, 
do not last very long, and puncture more easily than the other tires I've 
listed (can't compare to the Barlows on this score yet because I have not 
enough miles on them to know). Interesting to me, they're not as "supple" 
as the Barlows. Rest assured, the Jack Browns are supple enough to provide 
exceptional ride quality, if that's what's making them ride so well. In my 
mind, weight makes  big difference in the liveliness of the ride. Both the 
Jack Brown Greens (350 grams) and Barlow Pass Els (lighter still) are 
light. When I switch from Pasellas or Soma New Express to the Jacks or the 
Barlows, I notice an immediate improvement in liveliness. Depends what 
matters most to you. All are good tires for a particular purpose. I haven't 
yet found one tire to do it all - though I'm still looking.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 12:07:34 PM UTC-7, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Yes, good advice in a clearly delineated, either/or, binary, black and 
> white world. But the OP was asking about the confusing array of tires 
> available, and what exactly constitutes a supple tire. Trying all the 
> available tires out there is a bit daunting. While experimentation is 
> inevitable, the great thing about a list devoted to bike stuff is that you 
> can access lots of other experiences that would otherwise be unavailable.
>
> Other than tubulars vs. clinchers when I was racing, I never paid much 
> attention to tires. Just figured if you wanted good ones, buy the more 
> expensive ones. Which, to a certain extent, is still true. But I think 
> becoming more educated about the various qualities of bicycle tires is 
> kinda useful, and relatively interesting. It will be particularly 
> interesting to compare the stock Clem tires with a puffy, supple, 
> lightweight. I did hear that Panaracer Gravel Kings will soon be available 
> in a 48cm 650B that has a herringbone tread very similar to the Compass 
> tires. Anyone heard anything further about a release date on these? I 
> imagine Soma is cooking up an entry into the 650B 42+ field.
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:
>>
>> I think we've gotten to the point with this discussion that people should 
>> just choose a tire according to their preference.
>>
>> If a smooth, fast ride is a priority for you, ride supple tires.
>>
>> If longevity and flat resistance are a priority for you, don't ride 
>> supple tires.
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:
>>
>>> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this 
>>> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about 
>>> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple 
>>> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires 
>>> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about 
>>> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing 
>>> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and 
>>> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the 
>>> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from 
>>> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your 
>>> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and 
>>> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>>>
>>> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv 
>>> bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle 
>>> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the 
>>> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean 
>>> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making 
>>> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I 
>>> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a 
>>> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same 
>>> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I 
>>> 

Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Steve Palincsar]

You may be enjoying a special case.  Goatheads, horrible as they are, 
make a small clean puncture that is exactly what Orange Seal is best at 
sealing.  The holes that are made in the tire are unlikely to cut across 
large areas of fabric.  If you rode on surfaces that instead looked or 
acted as though they were made like this




Orange Seal probably wouldn't work at all.




On 03/23/2016 02:23 PM, Patrick Moore wrote:

Step 1: remove Marathons.

Step 2: Install paper thin and paper light Compass equivalents.

Step 3: Insert 2 to 4 oz, depending on tire volume, of Orange Seal 
into your tubes.


Step 3: Rejoice in the benefits and pleasures of both worlds.

Patrick Moore, who repeats /ad nauseam/ that he rides 
lighter-than-Compass Furious Freds in goathadland thanks to Orange Seal.


Actually, I rode unprotected Big Apples in through goathead patches, 
and they /rarely/ punctured, and rode pretty well for 900 gram (60 X 
622) tires.


On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 8:12 AM, John A. Bennett > wrote:


I've had the same pair(s) of Schwalbe Marathons on my Saluki and
Atlantis for over 5 years. Never had a flat. Never had a tire fail.

They feel fine over every surface, and I don't live in fear of
potholes, nails, pointy rocks, broken glass, or switchblades.

To me, /that's/ the smoothest ride of all.



On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 6:52:15 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:

From my experience:

Solid rubber tire = 0
Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1
Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2
Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3
Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4
Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5
Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6
Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7
Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8
Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9

And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though
I've never ridden them.

On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable
difference in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I
ride a "7" and an "8" back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I
ride a "7" and a "9" back to back, I'll say "wow!".

-Tim

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:

Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am
confused by how this topic is often discussed. With how BQ
and Compass/Grand Bois talk about their tires it seems as
though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple tires vs.
non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their
tires vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when
we talk about suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that
there has long been differing levels of casing quality
with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and why
doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?

It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple,
from maybe the steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault
Schwalbe to the hand sewn from the finest silk undies race
only FMBs. In that continuum you have your clincher and
your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI
and your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum
are they?

I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer.
My only Riv bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and
appreciate quality bicycle components and, as they say, am
too poor to buy cheap things. While the rising interest in
wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more
companies making all sorts of unverifiable claims about
their tires. I remember when I switched from Schwalbe
Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a previous
touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the
same change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS
to Compass tires? I would like to upgrade from the bottom
of the line wire bead Schwalbe's currently on my Clem
(mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the
supple-itude?

- Perpetually Confused by Marketing



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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Yes, good advice in a clearly delineated, either/or, binary, black and 
white world. But the OP was asking about the confusing array of tires 
available, and what exactly constitutes a supple tire. Trying all the 
available tires out there is a bit daunting. While experimentation is 
inevitable, the great thing about a list devoted to bike stuff is that you 
can access lots of other experiences that would otherwise be unavailable.

Other than tubulars vs. clinchers when I was racing, I never paid much 
attention to tires. Just figured if you wanted good ones, buy the more 
expensive ones. Which, to a certain extent, is still true. But I think 
becoming more educated about the various qualities of bicycle tires is 
kinda useful, and relatively interesting. It will be particularly 
interesting to compare the stock Clem tires with a puffy, supple, 
lightweight. I did hear that Panaracer Gravel Kings will soon be available 
in a 48cm 650B that has a herringbone tread very similar to the Compass 
tires. Anyone heard anything further about a release date on these? I 
imagine Soma is cooking up an entry into the 650B 42+ field.

On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 12:07:36 PM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> I think we've gotten to the point with this discussion that people should 
> just choose a tire according to their preference.
>
> If a smooth, fast ride is a priority for you, ride supple tires.
>
> If longevity and flat resistance are a priority for you, don't ride supple 
> tires.
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  
> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this 
>> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about 
>> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple 
>> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires 
>> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about 
>> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing 
>> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and 
>> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>>
>> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the 
>> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from 
>> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your 
>> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and 
>> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>>
>> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv 
>> bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle 
>> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the 
>> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean 
>> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making 
>> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I 
>> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a 
>> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same 
>> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I 
>> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's 
>> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a 
>> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>>
>> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

Actually, Tim, in my admittedly limited experience, even solid tires can be
beaten in the "horrible to ride" contest. I once bought an early '80s
Cyclopro mtb at Goodwill. It was shod with some early, heavily belted 1.9"
slick, fortified with 1 cm thick thornproof tubes, with the protection
augmented by the thickest Mr Tuffys. What an amazingly horrible ride!

By contract, several years ago I resurrected a cheap city bike that had
solid tires. These were perhaps 38s, not 50s, but they certainly rolled
better than the combination described above -- I was very surprised.

As I reported earlier, I swapped the Avocet city tires on the Dahon to
Kojaks. The Kojaks still feel sluggish on 20" wheels compared to 559 or 622
Kojaks, but they are *hugely* better than the Avocets they replaced, and
those Avocets were called "Race something" if IIRC.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 7:51 AM, Tim Gavin 
wrote:

> From my experience:
>
> Solid rubber tire = 0
> Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1
> Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2
> Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3
> Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4
> Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5
> Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6
> Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7
> Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8
> Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9
>
> And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never
> ridden them.
>
> On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference
> in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8"
> back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back,
> I'll say "wow!".
>
> -Tim
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:
>
>> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this
>> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about
>> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple
>> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires
>> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about
>> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing
>> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and
>> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>>
>> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the
>> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from
>> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your
>> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and
>> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>>
>> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv
>> bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle
>> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the
>> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
>> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making
>> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I
>> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a
>> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same
>> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I
>> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's
>> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
>> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>>
>> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
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>>
>
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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

Step 1: remove Marathons.

Step 2: Install paper thin and paper light Compass equivalents.

Step 3: Insert 2 to 4 oz, depending on tire volume, of Orange Seal into
your tubes.

Step 3: Rejoice in the benefits and pleasures of both worlds.

Patrick Moore, who repeats *ad nauseam* that he rides lighter-than-Compass
Furious Freds in goathadland thanks to Orange Seal.

Actually, I rode unprotected Big Apples in through goathead patches, and
they *rarely* punctured, and rode pretty well for 900 gram (60 X 622) tires.

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 8:12 AM, John A. Bennett  wrote:

> I've had the same pair(s) of Schwalbe Marathons on my Saluki and Atlantis
> for over 5 years. Never had a flat. Never had a tire fail.
>
> They feel fine over every surface, and I don't live in fear of potholes,
> nails, pointy rocks, broken glass, or switchblades.
>
> To me, *that's* the smoothest ride of all.
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 6:52:15 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
>>
>> From my experience:
>>
>> Solid rubber tire = 0
>> Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1
>> Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2
>> Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3
>> Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4
>> Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5
>> Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6
>> Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7
>> Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8
>> Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9
>>
>> And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never
>> ridden them.
>>
>> On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference
>> in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8"
>> back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back,
>> I'll say "wow!".
>>
>> -Tim
>>
>> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:
>>
>>> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this
>>> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about
>>> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple
>>> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires
>>> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about
>>> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing
>>> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and
>>> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>>>
>>> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the
>>> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from
>>> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your
>>> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and
>>> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>>>
>>> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv
>>> bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle
>>> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the
>>> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
>>> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making
>>> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I
>>> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a
>>> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same
>>> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I
>>> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's
>>> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
>>> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>>>
>>> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Steve Palincsar]

On 03/23/2016 10:56 AM, olofst...@gmail.com wrote:


How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, 
but methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life.




Having a flat tire isn't what you'd call an existential risk.  It's more 
of a minor irritation.




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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Jim Bronson]

I think we've gotten to the point with this discussion that people should
just choose a tire according to their preference.

If a smooth, fast ride is a priority for you, ride supple tires.

If longevity and flat resistance are a priority for you, don't ride supple
tires.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:

> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this
> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about
> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple
> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires
> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about
> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing
> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and
> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>
> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the
> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from
> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your
> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and
> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>
> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike
> is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle
> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the
> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making
> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I
> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a
> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same
> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I
> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's
> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>
> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>
>
>
> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Jon Dukeman in the foothills of Colorado]

As I age I think there are two ways to describe comfort...
The comfort you feel from a supple tire and the comfort you feel in the 
form of peace of mind that you are riding on tires that are very durable 
and will get you through nasty road conditions flat free, .
You have to pick your priorities and find a balance that makes you happy. 
Twenty five years ago if the tires were skinny and fast, that's all that 
mattered to me.
Jon

>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Lungimsam]

0 the worst - 10 the best:

700c Kenda -5
700c Specialized Armadillo-5
700c Gatorskin-7

650b Swifty-4
650b original Rumpkin-6
650b Marathon Green Guard-8.5
650b Hetre-10
650b Cypress-10
650b Loup Loup-10

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RE: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[olofstroh]

How much to drift on the side of safety is of course a personal thing, but 
methinks you´ve got to take some risks in life. I have ridden many pleasurable 
miles on the Heron Touring with Paselas on bad roads without mishap, but my 
custom Riv sports Pari-Motos. Just wonderful. Otoh they have alternated with 
Jack Brown Greens and I must admit that on a good road I can´t notice any 
difference, that comes on bad roads and trails which also means that it comes 
with a risk. I´ve had one sidewall fail under me and that was not smooth. Still 
worth it.

 

To everyone her/his pleasure, but it´s good to know what you are doing. The 
same with loads and loading.

 

Olof Stroh

Uppsala Sweden

 

 

From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com 
[mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of John A. Bennett
Sent: Wednesday, March 23, 2016 3:12 PM
To: RBW Owners Bunch
Subject: Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

 

I've had the same pair(s) of Schwalbe Marathons on my Saluki and Atlantis for 
over 5 years. Never had a flat. Never had a tire fail. 

They feel fine over every surface, and I don't live in fear of potholes, nails, 
pointy rocks, broken glass, or switchblades. 

To me, that's the smoothest ride of all.

 



On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 6:52:15 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:

>From my experience:

 

Solid rubber tire = 0

Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1

Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2

Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3

Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4

Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5

Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6

Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7

Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8

Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9

 

And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never ridden 
them.

 

On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference in 
ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8" back to 
back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back, I'll say 
"wow!".

 

-Tim

 

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m <darkg...@gmail.com  > 
wrote:

Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this topic 
is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about their tires 
it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple tires vs. non-supple 
tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires vs. the rest. But what is 
even being discussed when we talk about suppleness? Am I confused in thinking 
that there has long been differing levels of casing quality with TPI being a 
good indicator of suppleness (and why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on 
their tires)?

It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the steel 
belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from the finest 
silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your clincher and your 
tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and your puncture-proof 
belt. But where in the continuum are they?

I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike is a 
Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle components and, 
as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the rising interest in wide 
tires in the performance bicycling world will mean more options for us balloon 
bikers, that also means more companies making all sorts of unverifiable claims 
about their tires. I remember when I switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to 
Clement 120TPI USH tires on a previous touring bike. I was not let down. But 
would I notice the same change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to 
Compass tires?  I would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead 
Schwalbe's currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) 
to a lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?

- Perpetually Confused by Marketing




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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[John A. Bennett]

I've had the same pair(s) of Schwalbe Marathons on my Saluki and Atlantis 
for over 5 years. Never had a flat. Never had a tire fail. 

They feel fine over every surface, and I don't live in fear of potholes, 
nails, pointy rocks, broken glass, or switchblades. 

To me, *that's* the smoothest ride of all.



On Wednesday, March 23, 2016 at 6:52:15 AM UTC-7, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> From my experience:
>
> Solid rubber tire = 0
> Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1
> Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2
> Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3
> Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4
> Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5
> Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6
> Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7
> Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8
> Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9
>
> And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never 
> ridden them.
>
> On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference 
> in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8" 
> back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back, 
> I'll say "wow!".
>
> -Tim
>
> On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  
> wrote:
>
>> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this 
>> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about 
>> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple 
>> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires 
>> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about 
>> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing 
>> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and 
>> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>>
>> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the 
>> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from 
>> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your 
>> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and 
>> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>>
>> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv 
>> bike is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle 
>> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the 
>> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean 
>> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making 
>> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I 
>> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a 
>> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same 
>> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I 
>> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's 
>> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a 
>> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>>
>> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
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>> .
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Tim Gavin]

>From my experience:

Solid rubber tire = 0
Super cheapo heavy tire (aka stock tires on box-store bikes) = 1
Studded, heavy (Nokian W160) = 2
Studded, huge (Dillinger 5) = 3
Huge (Ground Control 4.6) = 4
Armored, heavy (Schwalbe Marathon) = 5
Armored (Pasela PT/TG) = 6
Stout (Jack Brown, Ruffy Tuffy) = 7
Light (Super Moto, ITS MK2) = 8
Supple (Thunder Burt, Compass, Grand Bois, Pari-Moto) = 9

And I reserve 10 for those hand-sewn 320 tpi tubulars, though I've never
ridden them.

On this scale, each increment in rating indicates a noticeable difference
in ride quality and rolling resistance.  I.e., if I ride a "7" and an "8"
back to back, I'll say "nice!".  If I ride a "7" and a "9" back to back,
I'll say "wow!".

-Tim

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 5:27 PM, ian m  wrote:

> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this
> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about
> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple
> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires
> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about
> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing
> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and
> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>
> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the
> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from
> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your
> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and
> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>
> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike
> is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle
> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the
> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making
> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I
> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a
> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same
> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I
> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's
> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>
> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>

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Re: [RBW] On tire supple-itude

[Patrick Moore]

A recent BQ claimed to show that TPI doesn't necessarily correlate with
suppleness; apparently there are other factors that make Compass tires
supple with relatively low TPI counts.

In my experience, one element that correlates (I don't say "causes")
suppleness is light weight: when a tire casing is light and thin, the tires
seem to roll better.

On the other hand, tires with thick, heavy sidewalls in particular, and --
less so, but still so -- thick treads, as with puncture belts, have felt
relatively sluggish. I say "relatively" because some of Schwalbe's belted
tires -- the Big Apple and the Kojak -- in fact roll pretty well despite
their reinforced tread.

OTOH, I used to ride 559 X 32 Paselas, non-Tourguard, which weighed 240
grams consistently on a mail scale, and these rode pretty well, as well as,
say, the Kojaks. I remember once adding Mr Tuffy's to my Paselas, riding 30
miles rt to work and back, and immediately removing them -- so noticeable
did they add drag to the tire. (Note that these Paselas, no longer
available apparently, had suppleness and low price on their side; against
them was fragility and great sensitivity to pressure.

The best tires I've used to date, and my current defaults, are the Compass
559 X 32 (actual 28-29) Elk Pass -- 175 grams each! -- and the 622 X 50
Schwalbe Furious Fred -- 360 honest mail scale grams each! Both these
tires, the FFs run tubeless for added effect, are very noticeably easier to
pedal in a given gear in given conditions at given cadences; I find myself
riding, on pavement, in road gears on the FFs, instead of gearing down as
with the (again, relatively nice) Big Apples.

As for fragility: well, yes, every benefit comes with a defect; I'd not
ride either tire in sharp gravel. But for smooth or light gravel and firm
dirt, even the Elk Pass does fine; and with Orange Seal in the tubes (EPs)
or, sans tubes, in the tire carcase (FFs) I blithely ride amongst the
goatheads with near impunity.

Really, after the frame (fit, feel), the quality of the tire makes the
bike; and really, for me, the EP and the FF have literally transformed
respectively my paved road and dirt road riding (again, modern sealants let
me use them with impunity).

Lastly: It has been some years since I used Jack Brown Greens, which, IIRC,
were as far as ride quality goes, on the level of non-tourguard Paselas.
The EPs and the FFs are much better.

On Tue, Mar 22, 2016 at 4:27 PM, ian m  wrote:

> Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this
> topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about
> their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple
> tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires
> vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about
> suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing
> levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and
> why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?
>
> It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the
> steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from
> the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your
> clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and
> your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?
>
> I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike
> is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle
> components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the
> rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean
> more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making
> all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I
> switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a
> previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same
> change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I
> would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's
> currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a
> lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?
>
> - Perpetually Confused by Marketing
>
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



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[RBW] On tire supple-itude

[ian m]

Hopefully not beating a dying horse here, but I am confused by how this 
topic is often discussed. With how BQ and Compass/Grand Bois talk about 
their tires it seems as though it's a binary opposition, right? Supple 
tires vs. non-supple tires, new tire technology vs. old tires, their tires 
vs. the rest. But what is even being discussed when we talk about 
suppleness? Am I confused in thinking that there has long been differing 
levels of casing quality with TPI being a good indicator of suppleness (and 
why doesn't Compass advertise the TPI on their tires)?

It seems to me that it's more of a continuum of supple, from maybe the 
steel belted kevlar enforced urban assault Schwalbe to the hand sewn from 
the finest silk undies race only FMBs. In that continuum you have your 
clincher and your tubular, your wire bead and folding bead, your 120TPI and 
your puncture-proof belt. But where in the continuum are they?

I'm not interested in performance and am a proud unracer. My only Riv bike 
is a Clem and I love it. But I know and appreciate quality bicycle 
components and, as they say, am too poor to buy cheap things. While the 
rising interest in wide tires in the performance bicycling world will mean 
more options for us balloon bikers, that also means more companies making 
all sorts of unverifiable claims about their tires. I remember when I 
switched from Schwalbe Delta Cruisers to Clement 120TPI USH tires on a 
previous touring bike. I was not let down. But would I notice the same 
change if I went from the light Jack Browns on my SS to Compass tires?  I 
would like to upgrade from the bottom of the line wire bead Schwalbe's 
currently on my Clem (mostly because they have a wobble in the bead) to a 
lighter "all road" 650b. How does one compare the supple-itude?

- Perpetually Confused by Marketing



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