[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[BSWP]

I also enjoyed the new years day blahg... rambling, informative, 
entertaining. I think I need some new fidget gadgets on my desk...

I have two bikes right now, QuickBeam (shift by loosening two 15mm nuts and 
sliding the axle or flopping the wheel) and LongLow (friction-mode Shimano 
105 barends to a fine six-speed freewheel and front triple). For me, 
friction shifting keeps me in tune with the bike, which I like. The rubbing 
front der or rumbling rear cogs tell me I need to nudge the lever just a 
wee bit more, and I appreciate the communication. But that's me, the 
connection with the components is part of the ride, and part of why I ride.

Now, on the new frame, still waiting to be built, I have a Rohloff rear 
hub, so it's going to be a purely indexed shifter, the big collar to turn. 
Thinking to mount it on the stem... there will be learning involved, and I 
look forward to that, too.

- Andrew, Berkeley

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Re: [RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Patrick Moore]

On Sat, Jan 4, 2020 at 7:36 PM James Valiensi  wrote:

> Oh Boy-
> I hate friction shifting with modern cogs, ie the ones designed for index
> shifting. I tried to use friction with these cogs and got nothing but ghost
> shifts when I stood up or pedaled hard.
> Friction is best with an old Suntour six speed freewheels.
>

I assert, claim, insist, asseverate, proclaim, and announce that friction
works *better* with Hyperglide cogs than with any square-profile,
pre-indexed cogset I ever used; only, Uniglide might friction better than
HG. SunTour BarCons, 10 speeds, mismatched cogs. Just wonderful. But then
again, I had no problem with Huret Alvit rds or Delrin Simplex, either.


> I like vinyl and film. But I jammed my Nikon FE yesterday trying to load
> film in it. It's been a few years since I used film and I forgot how to
> load the damn thing.
>

I proclaim that the camera on your obsolete iPhone is all any reasonable
person needs for all life's photography.

My Joe A. is an awesome bike. It has the nicest ride. But the chain stays
> are so long. When I wash it, I feel like I'm working in a shipyard. I've
> been tempted to shorten the stays (cut the back of the bike frame off and
> put it together better. A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you
> need to buy two chains to get enough length for it.
>

Hah! Tell that to Grant Petersen.


> Hydraulic disk brakes work great and cantilevers will always suck.
>

Bullship. I've used brakes from stirrup to cable cantis, even tried hydros,
and even had a bike with a weird hybrid Bowden cable/rod system. I've used
many very good brakes, "good" meaning power vs effort and modulation. The
best brakes I've ever used in 60 years of cycling were the IRD cantis set
up by Riv staff on my erstwhile Sam Hill. Braking Paradise.


>
> I've also though how cool my Joe A would be with disk brakes.
>

I will let you get away with this speculation.

I run many bikes with a 1 x 11 drive train I don't miss the front
> derailleur. In fact I re-installed one on my Riv custom and it took three
> different ones and an hour of adjusting to get it to work (small chainrings
> and loads of BB drop on that frame)
>

And no complaints about his declaration, tho' I will indeed add that
setting up fds takes some experience, but it's not genius material. (My
Dura Ace 7410 fd works perfectly well on my 42/28 subcompact Ritchey Logic,
pulled again by a BarCon.


> I've been a Rivendell fan & customer since day one. But sometimes I think
> they are too rigid in their bike philosophy.
>

I will obstruct no man in his opinions about Rivendell's penchants.

But I declare and insist with full confidence in the righteousness of my
position that every reasonable man and woman will grant that a fixed
drivetrain is all one needs, and that said fixed drivetrains *RULE*

Patrick "fixed as much in his convictions as in his drivetrains (heh heh
heh)" Moore

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:44:00 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> As usual, fun, miscellaneous, non-organized content. Much on slant
> parallels and indexing and the power of Shimano and the smallness of
> SunTour. But, perhaps this is worth a breath: sure, everyone nowadays wants
> 13 in back and trouble-free electric, indexed shifting. BUT! I would not be
> surprised if there is a market "out there" for honorable consumers who
> *like* to develop the skills required to do things for themselves. After
> all, there was the fixie craze during the 10 speed indexing period, and --
> I am no expert on current culture, but is there not a trend toward
> self-reliance, authenticity (not sure how to define this, but at least,
> don't buy what you can't do), simplicity, and durability? The sorts of
> people who use knives instead of processors, and knead bread dough instead
> of using bread makers? (Both for me, tho' I'm no gourmet chef.)
>
> The same from another angle: every time you gain with a machine that makes
> it easier for you to do something, and for neophytes to get into the
> action, you also *pari passu* lose skill and expertise, which itself is
> very often a large part of the pleasure and self-affirmation of practicing
> some craft, be it only shifting a derailleur system.
>
> Now, if you perfect -- as Rivendell's Silvers do --"do-it-yourself manual
> shifting, might there not be a small but sustainable market for
> well-meaning, earnest, honest people who'd like to aquire these minimal
> self-sufficient skills with tools perfected for the purpose?
>
> It seems to me that Rivendell ought to actively market to this audience;
> not the theme, "We're diehard holdouts for old-fashioned skills," but "You
> want the pleasure and self respect of learning how to do things for
> yourself; we can equip you with tools perfected for this" -- whether
> shifters, axes, bags, clothing, what have you. IOW, not "we're holdouts"
> but "you don't want to be subordinate to the machine; we are on your side
> with the right stuff."
>
> Those 

[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Joe Bernard]

Recumbents and tandems have lots of chain, too. I understand the irritation 
about longbikes needing long chains and wide racks (car racks), but neither of 
these are a design flaw from the perspective of what works to make a bike pedal 
well. 

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Kalmia Vt]

James writes: " A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you need to 
buy two chains to get enough length for it." That was a bit of a surprise 
to me when I built my Appaloosa. Rather than go to my local shop and buy 
two chains when I replaced the chain last year, I called Rivendell and told 
them how many links I wanted. They stock bulk chain and cut to length on 
request. I think it is a KMC product. Shifts fine on my 3x9 set-up. And if 
you leave it a little dirty, nobody can tell it's not Ultegra.   -   K


On Saturday, January 4, 2020 at 9:36:44 PM UTC-5, James Valiensi wrote:
>
> Oh Boy-
> I hate friction shifting with modern cogs, ie the ones designed for index 
> shifting. I tried to use friction with these cogs and got nothing but ghost 
> shifts when I stood up or pedaled hard. 
> Friction is best with an old Suntour six speed freewheels.
>
> I like vinyl and film. But I jammed my Nikon FE yesterday trying to load 
> film in it. It's been a few years since I used film and I forgot how to 
> load the damn thing. 
>
> My Joe A. is an awesome bike. It has the nicest ride. But the chain stays 
> are so long. When I wash it, I feel like I'm working in a shipyard. I've 
> been tempted to shorten the stays (cut the back of the bike frame off and 
> put it together better. A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you 
> need to buy two chains to get enough length for it. 
>
> Hydraulic disk brakes work great and cantilevers will always suck. 
>
> I've also though how cool my Joe A would be with disk brakes. 
>
> I run many bikes with a 1 x 11 drive train I don't miss the front 
> derailleur. In fact I re-installed one on my Riv custom and it took three 
> different ones and an hour of adjusting to get it to work (small chainrings 
> and loads of BB drop on that frame) 
>
> I've been a Rivendell fan & customer since day one. But sometimes I think 
> they are too rigid in their bike philosophy. 
>
> On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:44:00 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> As usual, fun, miscellaneous, non-organized content. Much on slant 
>> parallels and indexing and the power of Shimano and the smallness of 
>> SunTour. But, perhaps this is worth a breath: sure, everyone nowadays wants 
>> 13 in back and trouble-free electric, indexed shifting. BUT! I would not be 
>> surprised if there is a market "out there" for honorable consumers who 
>> *like* to develop the skills required to do things for themselves. After 
>> all, there was the fixie craze during the 10 speed indexing period, and -- 
>> I am no expert on current culture, but is there not a trend toward 
>> self-reliance, authenticity (not sure how to define this, but at least, 
>> don't buy what you can't do), simplicity, and durability? The sorts of 
>> people who use knives instead of processors, and knead bread dough instead 
>> of using bread makers? (Both for me, tho' I'm no gourmet chef.)
>>
>> The same from another angle: every time you gain with a machine that 
>> makes it easier for you to do something, and for neophytes to get into the 
>> action, you also *pari passu* lose skill and expertise, which itself is 
>> very often a large part of the pleasure and self-affirmation of practicing 
>> some craft, be it only shifting a derailleur system.
>>
>> Now, if you perfect -- as Rivendell's Silvers do --"do-it-yourself manual 
>> shifting, might there not be a small but sustainable market for 
>> well-meaning, earnest, honest people who'd like to aquire these minimal 
>> self-sufficient skills with tools perfected for the purpose?
>>
>> It seems to me that Rivendell ought to actively market to this audience; 
>> not the theme, "We're diehard holdouts for old-fashioned skills," but "You 
>> want the pleasure and self respect of learning how to do things for 
>> yourself; we can equip you with tools perfected for this" -- whether 
>> shifters, axes, bags, clothing, what have you. IOW, not "we're holdouts" 
>> but "you don't want to be subordinate to the machine; we are on your side 
>> with the right stuff."
>>
>> Those new Silver shifters might well be a design that entices me away 
>> from beloved SunTour barcons.I didn't like the older, long-levered Silver 
>> bar end shifters, but the new ones may make me change my mind.
>>
>> Casting back to the last blahg, with Archie Bunker: I never watched All 
>> in the Family until just a week or so ago when I looked it up. I have to 
>> say that, from the very few episodes I fast forwarded through, it was well 
>> done, and I usually hate TV. That is, it portrayed a bigot well as a bigot 
>> in a humorous way.
>>
>> What I have watched what may be BBC's antecedent to the show which, as an 
>> Anglophile, I like quite a bit. As usual, as with anything literary or 
>> dramatic, the Brits just do it better.
>>
>> Grant, this one's for you:
>>
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0-leRNxhmg
>>
>>
>> *Today when you're picking out baby and toddler toys, the groovy thing to 
>> look for 

[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[James Valiensi]

Oh Boy-
I hate friction shifting with modern cogs, ie the ones designed for index 
shifting. I tried to use friction with these cogs and got nothing but ghost 
shifts when I stood up or pedaled hard. 
Friction is best with an old Suntour six speed freewheels.

I like vinyl and film. But I jammed my Nikon FE yesterday trying to load 
film in it. It's been a few years since I used film and I forgot how to 
load the damn thing. 

My Joe A. is an awesome bike. It has the nicest ride. But the chain stays 
are so long. When I wash it, I feel like I'm working in a shipyard. I've 
been tempted to shorten the stays (cut the back of the bike frame off and 
put it together better. A bike shouldn't have chain stays so long that you 
need to buy two chains to get enough length for it. 

Hydraulic disk brakes work great and cantilevers will always suck. 

I've also though how cool my Joe A would be with disk brakes. 

I run many bikes with a 1 x 11 drive train I don't miss the front 
derailleur. In fact I re-installed one on my Riv custom and it took three 
different ones and an hour of adjusting to get it to work (small chainrings 
and loads of BB drop on that frame) 

I've been a Rivendell fan & customer since day one. But sometimes I think 
they are too rigid in their bike philosophy. 

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 11:44:00 AM UTC-8, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> As usual, fun, miscellaneous, non-organized content. Much on slant 
> parallels and indexing and the power of Shimano and the smallness of 
> SunTour. But, perhaps this is worth a breath: sure, everyone nowadays wants 
> 13 in back and trouble-free electric, indexed shifting. BUT! I would not be 
> surprised if there is a market "out there" for honorable consumers who 
> *like* to develop the skills required to do things for themselves. After 
> all, there was the fixie craze during the 10 speed indexing period, and -- 
> I am no expert on current culture, but is there not a trend toward 
> self-reliance, authenticity (not sure how to define this, but at least, 
> don't buy what you can't do), simplicity, and durability? The sorts of 
> people who use knives instead of processors, and knead bread dough instead 
> of using bread makers? (Both for me, tho' I'm no gourmet chef.)
>
> The same from another angle: every time you gain with a machine that makes 
> it easier for you to do something, and for neophytes to get into the 
> action, you also *pari passu* lose skill and expertise, which itself is 
> very often a large part of the pleasure and self-affirmation of practicing 
> some craft, be it only shifting a derailleur system.
>
> Now, if you perfect -- as Rivendell's Silvers do --"do-it-yourself manual 
> shifting, might there not be a small but sustainable market for 
> well-meaning, earnest, honest people who'd like to aquire these minimal 
> self-sufficient skills with tools perfected for the purpose?
>
> It seems to me that Rivendell ought to actively market to this audience; 
> not the theme, "We're diehard holdouts for old-fashioned skills," but "You 
> want the pleasure and self respect of learning how to do things for 
> yourself; we can equip you with tools perfected for this" -- whether 
> shifters, axes, bags, clothing, what have you. IOW, not "we're holdouts" 
> but "you don't want to be subordinate to the machine; we are on your side 
> with the right stuff."
>
> Those new Silver shifters might well be a design that entices me away from 
> beloved SunTour barcons.I didn't like the older, long-levered Silver bar 
> end shifters, but the new ones may make me change my mind.
>
> Casting back to the last blahg, with Archie Bunker: I never watched All in 
> the Family until just a week or so ago when I looked it up. I have to say 
> that, from the very few episodes I fast forwarded through, it was well 
> done, and I usually hate TV. That is, it portrayed a bigot well as a bigot 
> in a humorous way.
>
> What I have watched what may be BBC's antecedent to the show which, as an 
> Anglophile, I like quite a bit. As usual, as with anything literary or 
> dramatic, the Brits just do it better.
>
> Grant, this one's for you:
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t0-leRNxhmg
>
>
> *Today when you're picking out baby and toddler toys, the groovy thing to 
> look for is a toy that requires the human to do 90+ percent of the work. A 
> book versus an audio book or video game, Tinker Toys versus online building 
> things or whatever. Adult toys used to be that way, but bicycles, more than 
> most, have eliminated the need to make mechanisms perform. All riders have 
> to do it push to the click, or share the task with a motor. It's no skin 
> off anybody's nose, who even cares?, except that I think everybody should 
> have at least one bike that is more manual than automatic. It's not a 
> matter of trying to make simple things harder; it's more like not seeking 
> out the easiest, most brainless way to perform a function that formerly 
> required a little 

[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[masmojo]

Well, Bill I am not sure if indispensable is the word I would choose, but they 
(index shifters) certainly are butt saver sometimes. 

The answer though, at least for the time being is Microshift. Surly's have come 
with'em for years. Unfortunately, that's pretty much it. To me the issue is not 
indexing as much as it is these overly complex, non user serviceable shifting 
contraptions of the last 25 years. This all makes me think that maybe 
electronic shifting ain't really that bad!???
My recently built Crust Scapegoat has a 10 speed SRAM "trigger" shifter. I'd 
like to say I hate it, but truth is it's not that bad. I just don't have too 
much faith that it'll hold up very well.

Very simply shifting is shifting, I've done it 10s of thousands of times and I 
really don't derive a high amount of satisfaction from doing it right. Exactly 
the opposite really; I expect to do it right & I  am just mildly annoyed if it 
goes awry for some reason.
Increasingly, my fear is that the parts to build a Rivendell are going to go 
from being commonplace to sort of proprietary. As they move further from the 
main stream. The choices start to become fewer and more expensive. Finding a 
650B disc rim or wheel set is falling off a log easy; rim brake on the other 
hand,  although not too difficult is hard to do inexpensively and it's only 
likely to get worse.

Increasing the front center of a Clem cockpit, may seem fairly innocent, until 
you think about putting handlebars on it. Your gonna need bars with more sweep 
back & really nobody else makes those, only Rivendell. This isn't so much a 
complaint as an observation. 

Manual shifters in cars sadly are not making a comeback, they've just held on & 
I hope they continue to. But, I'm afraid, especially with the advent of 
electric cars their days are numbered. More & more CVTs are replacing 
automatics as the default transmission and that's pretty much the way it's 
going to go. It's a short script at this point.

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Re: [RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting generalization of the connection between tool technology and
human flourishing. In this connection, I recall reading a very interesting
book some 10 or so years ago about a MIT master's student who spent a year
or so with a very technology-conservative (no black bumper cars, no
gasoline engines on horse-drawn reapers) Amish or Mennonite community, with
the goal of finding out how much leisure and consequent contentment they
had compared to use ordinary cubicle folk. He found that, because they did
things slowly by hand in family and communal groups, then by a generous
definition of leisure time -- time spent drinking lemonade and chatting
while shelling peas would be leisure for example -- they actually had far
more leisur time than we'uns.

Back to regular programming. Me, I do like the effort, challenge,
difficulty, skill, and autonomy required by, for example, shifting
friction, making bread by hand (actually, it's easier and quicker -- far
less cleanup -- for me than with a processor or bread machine and you get
better results), food prep (good knife instead of machine), etc. because it
makes these activities into fun, or at least, "more-fun") pastimes instead
of just another damned chore. Likewise driving -- the most fun car I ever
owned, even in traffic -- hell, especially in traffic! -- had a
4-on-the-dash with 29 hp engine and, thank God, a torquey power band.

On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 8:09 PM Mark Roland  wrote:

> Interesting. While it would still be necessary to market friction shifting
> and long chainstays and rim brakes in contrast to what is on most other
> bicycles, you would really focus on the skills and the connection between
> the rider and the bicycle and the environment. I've long been interested in
> technology and energy, and how these forces affect economic and social
> structures. In the past, over on IBob,  I've referred to Ivan Illich's *Tools
> For Conviviality*. to make a few different points about bicycles. In
> relation to the most recent Blagh post, the first chapter, Two Watersheds,
> is relevant.
>
> The institution of health care/medicine is used as an example (and has
> only gained in its prescience and accuracy, unfortunately!), but the
> example of the development of the slant parallelogram in the early 70s
> (watershed 1, solving a real issue and greatly improving the performance of
> the bicycle drive train) and the onslaught of indexing systems in the
> early-mid 80s (watershed 2, where the "improvements" are minimal, and the
> benefit mainly goes to the purveyor of the more complex, more
> interdependent system, not the user) By the mid nineties, with the advent
> of suspension systems, disc brakes, carbon fiber, increasing specialization
> of equipment, clothing, etc., watershed 2 for bicycle design was definitely
> reached. Anyone interested in reading this chapter, or the whole book, can
> find it here:
> https://arl.human.cornell.edu/linked%20docs/Illich_Tools_for_Conviviality.pdf
>
> A quote from *Tools For Conviviality* that seems apropos to Grant's
> current blog:
>
> "Tools are intrinsic to social relationships. An individual relates
> himself in action to his society through the use of tools that he actively
> masters, or by which he is passively acted upon. To the degree that he masters
> his tools, he can invest the world with his meaning; to the degree that he
> is mastered by his tools, the shape of the tool determines his own
> self-image.Convivial tools are those which give each person who uses them the
> greatest opportunity to enrich the environment with the fruits of his or her
> vision. Industrial tools deny this possibility to those who use them and they
> allow their designers to determine the meaning and expectations of
> others. Most tools today cannot be used in a convivial fashion."
>
> While I'm hogging bandwidth with lengthy quotes and little original
> thought, here is another take on the matter, from another big thinker:
>
> "Our souls as well as our bodies are composed of individual elements which
> were all already present in the ranks of our ancestors. The “newness” in
> the individual psyche is an endlessly varied recombination of age-old
> components. Body and soul therefore have an intensely historical character
> and find no proper place in what is new , in things that have just come
> into being. That is to say, our ancestral components are only partly at
> home in such things. We are very far from having finished completely with
> the Middle Ages, classical antiquity, and primitivity, as our modern
> psyches pretend.
>
>
> Nevertheless, we have plunged down a cataract of progress, which sweeps us
> on into the future with ever wilder violence the farther it takes us from
> our roots. Once the past has been breached, it is usually annihilated, and
> there is no stopping the forward motion. But it is precisely the loss of
> connection with the past, our uprootedness, which has given rise to the
> “discontents” of 

Re: [RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Patrick Moore]

+ 1 for this sort of shifting. I actually enjoy the wider variety of torque
and cadence required by old fashioned drivetrains (with the exception that
I do prefer very close ratios in the very middle, middle defined by
use/terrain/type of riding; eg, pavement, 65-70-75 gi (thus must look for
Sturmey Archer AC hub; source = Sheldon:)

AC 3 Close 106.66
100
93.3 A rare model, made for club bicycles, time trials
.

Tho' I may have to content myself with the AM at 1.115/1.0/0.8654 --
roughly 2-teeth differences in the middle pavement range.

Of course, I don't do a lot of technical singletrack or even short, steep
hilly terrain; would doubtless have second thoughts about indexing (or ss +
walking??) for such uses.



On Thu, Jan 2, 2020 at 5:02 PM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> ...
>


> I love Silver Power Ratchet shifters but they do indeed belong in the
> simple/fixie category of bikes you don't shift much..a thing Grant has
> promoted since way back in the Bstone days. When I use them I tend to stay
> in a particular gear longer and just grind it or coast down because hunting
> for gears with friction can be more bother than it's worth. This works
> great for me - especially on my eClem which hardly needs to be shifted -
> but as masmojo says wouldn't be great on hilly dirt rides. If I bought a
> Gus/Susie it would get a 1x indexed drivetrain, my custom will have one
> Silver shifting two rings up front.
>

-- 

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Brewster Fong]

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 9:33:42 PM UTC-8, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> I don't think he's right about the return of dt shifters. I would also 
> contest his contention that manual shift is making a comeback in sports 
> cars; there's a stalwart few who never abandoned them, but I'm not seeing a 
> mad rush back in that area. Dual-clutch semi-autos with paddle shifters are 
> not the car equivalent of downtubers. 


Agree, this is way off topic, but what car mfr is bringing back manual 
shifters?!  Yes, Miatas, certain Hondas, Toyotas. VWs, Ford, GM and of 
course BMW and Porsche still offer it.

But with the advent of Battery Electric Vehicles (BEV), the leader is Tesla 
and they only have one speed. Same for the Chevy Bolt and Nissan Leaf.  
Even the new $150K Porsche Taycan will only have a 2 speed transmission. 
None of these BEVs have manual transmissions. 

Similarly, with bicycles, things are going to e-shifting with Shimano di2, 
Sram etap and Campy EPS. They all work very well. I don't see a return to 
dt shiftersGood Luck! 

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Joe Bernard]

I don't think he's right about the return of dt shifters. I would also contest 
his contention that manual shift is making a comeback in sports cars; there's a 
stalwart few who never abandoned them, but I'm not seeing a mad rush back in 
that area. Dual-clutch semi-autos with paddle shifters are not the car 
equivalent of downtubers. 

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Mark Roland]

Interesting. While it would still be necessary to market friction shifting 
and long chainstays and rim brakes in contrast to what is on most other 
bicycles, you would really focus on the skills and the connection between 
the rider and the bicycle and the environment. I've long been interested in 
technology and energy, and how these forces affect economic and social 
structures. In the past, over on IBob,  I've referred to Ivan Illich's *Tools 
For Conviviality*. to make a few different points about bicycles. In 
relation to the most recent Blagh post, the first chapter, Two Watersheds, 
is relevant.

The institution of health care/medicine is used as an example (and has only 
gained in its prescience and accuracy, unfortunately!), but the example of 
the development of the slant parallelogram in the early 70s (watershed 1, 
solving a real issue and greatly improving the performance of the bicycle 
drive train) and the onslaught of indexing systems in the early-mid 80s 
(watershed 2, where the "improvements" are minimal, and the benefit mainly 
goes to the purveyor of the more complex, more interdependent system, not 
the user) By the mid nineties, with the advent of suspension systems, disc 
brakes, carbon fiber, increasing specialization of equipment, clothing, 
etc., watershed 2 for bicycle design was definitely reached. Anyone 
interested in reading this chapter, or the whole book, can find it here: 
https://arl.human.cornell.edu/linked%20docs/Illich_Tools_for_Conviviality.pdf

A quote from *Tools For Conviviality* that seems apropos to Grant's current 
blog:

"Tools are intrinsic to social relationships. An individual relates himself 
in action to his society through the use of tools that he actively masters, or 
by which he is passively acted upon. To the degree that he masters his tools, 
he can invest the world with his meaning; to the degree that he is mastered by 
his tools, the shape of the tool determines his own self-image.Convivial 
tools are those which give each person who uses them the greatest opportunity 
to enrich the environment with the fruits of his or her vision. Industrial 
tools deny this possibility to those who use them and they allow their 
designers 
to determine the meaning and expectations of others. Most tools today 
cannot be used in a convivial fashion."

While I'm hogging bandwidth with lengthy quotes and little original 
thought, here is another take on the matter, from another big thinker:

"Our souls as well as our bodies are composed of individual elements which 
were all already present in the ranks of our ancestors. The “newness” in 
the individual psyche is an endlessly varied recombination of age-old 
components. Body and soul therefore have an intensely historical character 
and find no proper place in what is new , in things that have just come 
into being. That is to say, our ancestral components are only partly at 
home in such things. We are very far from having finished completely with 
the Middle Ages, classical antiquity, and primitivity, as our modern 
psyches pretend.


Nevertheless, we have plunged down a cataract of progress, which sweeps us 
on into the future with ever wilder violence the farther it takes us from 
our roots. Once the past has been breached, it is usually annihilated, and 
there is no stopping the forward motion. But it is precisely the loss of 
connection with the past, our uprootedness, which has given rise to the 
“discontents” of civilisation and to such a flurry and haste that we live 
more in the future and its chimerical promises of a golden age than in the 
present, with which our whole evolutionary background has not yet caught up.






* We rush impetuously into novelty, driven by a mounting sense of 
insufficiency, dissatisfaction, and restlessness. We no longer live on what 
we have, but on promises, no longer in the light of the present day, but in 
the darkness of the future, which, we expect, will at last bring the proper 
sunrise. We refuse to recognise that everything better is purchased at the 
price of something worse; that, for example, the hope of greater freedom is 
cancelled out by increased enslavement to the state, not to speak of the 
terrible perils to which the most brilliant discoveries of science expose 
us. The less we understand of what our fathers and forefathers sought, the 
less we understand ourselves, and thus we help with all our might to rob 
the individual of his roots and his guiding instincts, so that he becomes a 
particle in the mass, ruled only by what Nietzsche called the spirit of 
gravity. Reforms by advances, that is, by new methods or gadgets, are of 
course impressive at first, but in the long run they are dubious and in any 
case dearly paid for. They by no means increase the contentment or 
happiness of people on the whole. Mostly, they are deceptive sweetenings of 
existence, like speedier communications, which unpleasantly accelerate the 
tempo of life and leave us with less 

[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Ron Mc]

As Grant well pointed out, SunTour lives on in every derailleur made 
today.  




In 1988, even Campy bit the bullet and copied SunTour






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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Joe Bernard]

Now - since Benz mentioned it - transporting long Rivs in/on cars is a whole 
'nother matter. My quite long Chevy Impala with big trunk and fold-down rear 
seats swallows a 45cm Clem L with the front wheel off easily. My recent 52 Clem 
H, not so much. That bike was big! 

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:55:08 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:
>
> Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out 
> of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but 
> there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all 
> sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never 
> ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly 
> three!)…
>

I've only scant experience with the LWB bikes, having built a couple or 
three for a friend (so have to do shakedown rides), and riding the MIT 
Atlantis one time at RBWHQ. I didn't really find anything objectable with 
them at all, and the only remarkable challenge I saw was fitting a LWB into 
a car. They rode similar to other Rivendell bikes (of which I have four) – 
stable and predictable. So what didn't you like about your LWB bikes? Given 
that handling is more than the sum of its parts, how did you come to 
attribute any difference solely to the LWB?

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Joe Bernard]

It is my understanding that Riv frames are the one product they sell as many of 
as they can make. The Roadini was an exception and it had shorter stays than 
the other stuff, I don't think Grant's longbikes are a marketing issue. 

I love Silver Power Ratchet shifters but they do indeed belong in the 
simple/fixie category of bikes you don't shift much..a thing Grant has promoted 
since way back in the Bstone days. When I use them I tend to stay in a 
particular gear longer and just grind it or coast down because hunting for 
gears with friction can be more bother than it's worth. This works great for me 
- especially on my eClem which hardly needs to be shifted - but as masmojo says 
wouldn't be great on hilly dirt rides. If I bought a Gus/Susie it would get a 
1x indexed drivetrain, my custom will have one Silver shifting two rings up 
front. 

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Bill Lindsay]

masmojo said index shifting is indispensable for mountain biking, but said 
he doesn't like trigger shifters. 

What do you use on your mountain bike(s) if you don't use trigger 
shifters?  Grip shift?  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 1:55:08 PM UTC-8, masmojo wrote:
>
> Well, I love Grant and he's right a lot of the time about a lot of things, 
> but it's my personal belief is index shifting ain't one of them.
> I really don't think index shifting was intended for "lazy" people. I 
> never really appreciated index shifting until I started riding mountain 
> bikes; and honestly in that context especially, it's indispensable. When 
> you drop down into a gully or a roller and you need  a lower gear to get 
> out then what you used to get in, you've got to RAPIDLY  move through the 
> gears to get to the one you need! There's no time to feel it through. 
> Additionally,  if you can have index shifting, then why wouldn't you? I 
> have plenty of bikes with friction shifting and in a general sense it's 
> fine, but it's a tool to shift gears; very simple that. Index or not why is 
> it even a talking point? Last night I changed the Dia Compe friction 
> shifter off my Atlantis & installed a new MicroShift bar con. So now I have 
> index; yeah!
> This wasn't so much to get index as it was to get a bar con, because the 
> old shifter was down tube mounted which I find to be a pain most of the 
> time.
> OK, that said where does one draw the line. Problem is shifting quickly 
> went from 7 speed thumb shifters to the push-push trigger monstrosities. 
> Those I absolutely don't dig very much! Why, because they don't really 
> bring anything to the game, they don't improve anything, in fact they 
> create problems, because they are fragile, wear quickly & break! But, maybe 
> that's the idea? Planned obsolescence.
>
> Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out 
> of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but 
> there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all 
> sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never 
> ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly 
> three!) Unfortunately, I have no way to make a head to head comparison, 
>  but I feel pretty safe postulating that I'd love my Medium Clementine more 
> if the chainstays were 3/4 shorter. Which I should add; would still be 
> considered long.
> I am sorry if I come off contrarian; I am not in favor of change for 
> changes sake and there's loads of "technical Improvements" in the bike 
> industry that make me ask why? But in the last 10 years I've probably 
> bought 10 bikes; the Only ones that didn't have threadless 
> stearers/headsets, Disc Brakes, etc. Have been Rivendells; I didn't buy the 
> Rivendells because they didn't have those things, but in spite of them not 
> having those things. As a former bike mechanic and person who wrenches my 
> own bikes, I recognize an improvement over pointless gadgetry. I've 
> recently bought not one, but two bikes with thru-axles and I can honestly 
> say I dig'em a lot! Prior to that a good vertical drop out was my favorite, 
> but these thru-axles are undoubtedly an improvement. 
> Anywayz, I realize I'm tilting at windmills here, but there's a certain 
> amount of catharsis.
>

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[RBW] Re: 1/1/20 Blahg

[Matt Dreher]

Agreed on both counts but especially LWB. There's a lot of things he's 
right about and it doesn't take a stretch to get on his side regarding, 
like steel, rim brakes, threaded steerers, leather saddles, and so on. 
Asking the average cyclist with Rivendell money to take a chance on a bike 
with way-long stays is a lot, though, and it drives away people who would 
otherwise be on board with the aesthetic and philosophy of Rivendell. How 
many people out there have Surlies with $1000+ of Paul and Phil and White 
onboard? More than you think, at least in Japan if Blue Lug's flickr is 
anything to go by. Why not give your average Crosscheck owner a nicer frame 
to aspire to as well without asking them to give up the quick handling?

On Thursday, January 2, 2020 at 3:55:08 PM UTC-6, masmojo wrote:
>
> Well, I love Grant and he's right a lot of the time about a lot of things, 
> but it's my personal belief is index shifting ain't one of them.
> I really don't think index shifting was intended for "lazy" people. I 
> never really appreciated index shifting until I started riding mountain 
> bikes; and honestly in that context especially, it's indispensable. When 
> you drop down into a gully or a roller and you need  a lower gear to get 
> out then what you used to get in, you've got to RAPIDLY  move through the 
> gears to get to the one you need! There's no time to feel it through. 
> Additionally,  if you can have index shifting, then why wouldn't you? I 
> have plenty of bikes with friction shifting and in a general sense it's 
> fine, but it's a tool to shift gears; very simple that. Index or not why is 
> it even a talking point? Last night I changed the Dia Compe friction 
> shifter off my Atlantis & installed a new MicroShift bar con. So now I have 
> index; yeah!
> This wasn't so much to get index as it was to get a bar con, because the 
> old shifter was down tube mounted which I find to be a pain most of the 
> time.
> OK, that said where does one draw the line. Problem is shifting quickly 
> went from 7 speed thumb shifters to the push-push trigger monstrosities. 
> Those I absolutely don't dig very much! Why, because they don't really 
> bring anything to the game, they don't improve anything, in fact they 
> create problems, because they are fragile, wear quickly & break! But, maybe 
> that's the idea? Planned obsolescence.
>
> Second, I think this whole long wheelbase thing is getting completely out 
> of hand. I agree that a super short wheelbase is sort of overkill, but 
> there's no reason a Clem should have the wheelbase it does. In fact all 
> sorts of reasons it shouldn't. I can say that, not as someone whose never 
> ridden a long wheelbase Rivendell, but as someone who owns two! (Formerly 
> three!) Unfortunately, I have no way to make a head to head comparison, 
>  but I feel pretty safe postulating that I'd love my Medium Clementine more 
> if the chainstays were 3/4 shorter. Which I should add; would still be 
> considered long.
> I am sorry if I come off contrarian; I am not in favor of change for 
> changes sake and there's loads of "technical Improvements" in the bike 
> industry that make me ask why? But in the last 10 years I've probably 
> bought 10 bikes; the Only ones that didn't have threadless 
> stearers/headsets, Disc Brakes, etc. Have been Rivendells; I didn't buy the 
> Rivendells because they didn't have those things, but in spite of them not 
> having those things. As a former bike mechanic and person who wrenches my 
> own bikes, I recognize an improvement over pointless gadgetry. I've 
> recently bought not one, but two bikes with thru-axles and I can honestly 
> say I dig'em a lot! Prior to that a good vertical drop out was my favorite, 
> but these thru-axles are undoubtedly an improvement. 
> Anywayz, I realize I'm tilting at windmills here, but there's a certain 
> amount of catharsis.
>

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