Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[R Shannon]

John, 

It exists. The Atlantis. Albeit a bit more stout (and pricey) than you might 
prefer. If you’re in the right size range, 26” wheels? No problem!

Best,
Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Jan 13, 2018, at 1:18 AM, john Bokman  wrote:
> 
> I trust in Grant, but my favorite Rivendell bikes, at least on paper, are the 
> most svelte. I hope the Sam doesn’t get too beefed out. (Rather, I hope if he 
> designs a beefed-out Sam, it’s a 26” wheeled Sam! I’d be all over that one.)
>> On Jan 12, 2018, at 5:14 PM, Adam Kilgas  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
>>> 
>>> PS: I was surprised at a recent blug or blahg post that said they beefed up 
>>> Sam’s fork.  That was where I noticed a big difference.
>> 
>> 
>> I was surprised to read that as well; kinda curious how Sam's fork now 
>> compares to most Taiwan-made forks...is it still lighter..?  Or was it ever?
>> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[john Bokman]

I trust in Grant, but my favorite Rivendell bikes, at least on paper, are the 
most svelte. I hope the Sam doesn’t get too beefed out. (Rather, I hope if he 
designs a beefed-out Sam, it’s a 26” wheeled Sam! I’d be all over that one.)
> On Jan 12, 2018, at 5:14 PM, Adam Kilgas  wrote:
> 
> On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
>> 
>> PS: I was surprised at a recent blug or blahg post that said they beefed up 
>> Sam’s fork.  That was where I noticed a big difference.
> 
> 
> I was surprised to read that as well; kinda curious how Sam's fork now 
> compares to most Taiwan-made forks...is it still lighter..?  Or was it ever?
> 
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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Adam Kilgas]

On Friday, January 12, 2018 at 12:54:16 PM UTC-5, Surlyprof wrote:
> 
> PS: I was surprised at a recent blug or blahg post that said they beefed up 
> Sam’s fork.  That was where I noticed a big difference.


I was surprised to read that as well; kinda curious how Sam's fork now compares 
to most Taiwan-made forks...is it still lighter..?  Or was it ever?

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Surlyprof]

Having gone through the Sam/Joe debate when the Joe came out, I determined they 
are pretty different bikes.  I rode my canti-Sam up to Riv to compare it to the 
Joe directly.   I thought the Joe is heavier-duty than the Sam particularly at 
the fork.  The Joe handles much wider tires (which is what prompted my 
comparison).  Ultimately, I found the Sam was a bit lighter and lively feeling 
(to me) than the Joe.  They’re similar but I ride roads more than trails.  If 
that was reversed, I might have bought the Joe.

John

PS: I was surprised at a recent blug or blahg post that said they beefed up 
Sam’s fork.  That was where I noticed a big difference. 

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[masmojo]

It's very interesting, when I  first decided I would breakdown & finally buy a 
Rivendell; a Sam seemed like an obvious choice, but at the time they no longer 
had any Cantilever braked Sams in my size. Ended up getting a Clementine & then 
a used Atantis. Then the Joe Appaloosa came out & it was a bit of a head 
scratcher, because even though the geometry of the two is different it 
certainly seemed like it was going to cannibalize Sam sales. So Sams having 
Cantis now makes me wonder about the future of the Joe Appaloosa, because some 
time back Grant hinted that there was going to be a "slimming" of models.  This 
hints at that I think!?

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Christopher Murray]

Agreed. I’ve seen and ridden a 51 and it was perfect. There must be something 
with this batch. 

Cheers!
Chris

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[RichS]

Christopher,

Something must have gone awry with the latest run of 51 Sams. I have a Sage 
Green 51 and it’s been perfect from the moment I put it on the road.

The black and cream Sams are so sharp. Congrats to all the prospective owners. 
Hope you enjoy yours as much as I appreciate mine.

Best,
Richard

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[john Bokman]

Ah, then in that case, glad I waited for the 58!
Rides like a dream. Rolling gleefully.
> On Jan 10, 2018, at 8:20 AM, Dave Small  wrote:
> 
> My story is the same:  60cm (which I bought) is a bit too big, the 56cm 
> (which I test rode and didn't buy) was a bit too small, and the later 58cm 
> version is just right.  I don't think the current 58cm equals the first-run 
> 56cm, either from my experience with them or the PBH recommendations--it's in 
> between.  
> 
> On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 9:58:09 PM UTC-5, John Bokman wrote:
> Rod, I got the first run (2009) Sam in 60cm. I wish I had gotten a 56 in 
> retrospect. Finally I got a 58 (new run) and it’s perfect. I think it equates 
> to the first run 56cm.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Dave Small]

My story is the same:  60cm (which I bought) is a bit too big, the 56cm 
(which I test rode and didn't buy) was a bit too small, and the later 58cm 
version is just right.  I don't think the current 58cm equals the first-run 
56cm, either from my experience with them or the PBH recommendations--it's 
in between.  

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 9:58:09 PM UTC-5, John Bokman wrote:
>
> Rod, I got the first run (2009) Sam in 60cm. I wish I had gotten a 56 in 
> retrospect. Finally I got a 58 (new run) and it’s perfect. I think it 
> equates to the first run 56cm.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[john Bokman]

In my case, i was “in between” sizes in 2009. My choices were 56cm and 60cm for 
my 89cm pbh. I chose the 60cm based on the employee’s suggestion. I was on the 
small end of the 60cm range. That is to say, my 89cm pub was among the shortest 
that would fit the 60cm frame. But I’d always read Grant saying: “Go bigger, 
bigger is better.” So between the Riv employee and Grant in my ears, that’s 
what I did. But I did not really understand the Riv “expanded frame” idea. What 
it meant for me was that the effective top tube was too long (61cm) even with a 
short, 7cm stem. (My legs are long and my torso is on the short side.) Yes, I 
rode the bike, and rode it successfully, for 7 years. But it was never the bike 
I wanted it to be.
So I took off the parts, and got a 58cm frame.

I think i would have loved the 56cm frame. I’m glad they now offer the new 58. 
I’m smack in the middle of the 58cm range, considering pbh, and I find it 
perfect. 

Concerning changes with the frameset: the 2009 bike, at 60cm, felt lighter to 
the hand (picking it up off the ground) than my 2017 58cm frame. Both my 
mechanic and I noticed the difference. Brian told me he thought they had 
“beefed up” the seat tube a bit. Regardless of weight,, once I’m riding, it’s 
just fantastic. I would never accuse Sam of being especially quick or nimble, 
but it’s just such a smooth, solid, confidence-inspiring ride that it always 
brings me joy. 
> On Jan 9, 2018, at 7:51 PM, Christopher Murray  
> wrote
> 
> It does seem the Sam has changed more than other bikes. When the Sam was 
> conceived the idea was having few sizes that would fit more people. This was 
> new in the Rivendell line up. It seems like most of what has changed is top 
> tube and seat tube lengths. I’d guess this is just an evolution of the 
> expanded geometry idea— finding the best sizes and the corresponding top tube 
> lengths. I think the history of the Sam and its changes would make a great 
> Reader article. 
> 
> Reading everything that has been written about the Sam over the years I get 
> the sense that it has been a smashing success. It has grown to be Riv’s go to 
> bike. Grant’s most recent post says “always the bike we rule out before going 
> on to something else.”
> 
> An awesome bike. Congrats to the lucky recent purchasers. I’m jealous. 
> 
> Cheers!
> Chris
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Christopher Murray]

It does seem the Sam has changed more than other bikes. When the Sam was 
conceived the idea was having few sizes that would fit more people. This was 
new in the Rivendell line up. It seems like most of what has changed is top 
tube and seat tube lengths. I’d guess this is just an evolution of the expanded 
geometry idea— finding the best sizes and the corresponding top tube lengths. I 
think the history of the Sam and its changes would make a great Reader article. 

Reading everything that has been written about the Sam over the years I get the 
sense that it has been a smashing success. It has grown to be Riv’s go to bike. 
Grant’s most recent post says “always the bike we rule out before going on to 
something else.”

An awesome bike. Congrats to the lucky recent purchasers. I’m jealous. 

Cheers!
Chris

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Rod Holland]

Interesting the way this bike has evolved.

rod

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[john Bokman]

Rod, I got the first run (2009) Sam in 60cm. I wish I had gotten a 56 in 
retrospect. Finally I got a 58 (new run) and it’s perfect. I think it equates 
to the first run 56cm.
> Bob,
> 
> Score! Many thanks!
> 
> rod
> 
> On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 6:27:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Lovejoy wrote:
> Rod,
> 
> I am assuming this one is valid: 
>  
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry 
> 
> 
> I think the one you were seeing is for the earlier (earliest?) versions.
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 5:18:34 PM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:
> The only Sam Hillborne geometry chart I could find 
> 
>  didn't include a row for 58cm; I assume that they weren't made in that 
> production run. An updated geometry chart would be handy. In the meantime, I 
> assume it's reasonable to assume that the rear spacing is still 135mm, and 
> the TT will likely measure somewhere around 60cm. Other build-related 
> questions may suggest themselves shortly. Interpolating between 56cm and 60cm 
> geometry data to estimate 58cm geometry seems like a safe bet...
> 
> rod
> 
> 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Rod Holland]

Bob,

Score! Many thanks!

rod

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 6:27:20 PM UTC-5, Bob Lovejoy wrote:
>
> Rod,
>
> I am assuming this one is valid: 
>  
> https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry
>
> I think the one you were seeing is for the earlier (earliest?) versions.
>
> Bob
>
>
> On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 5:18:34 PM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:
>>
>> The only Sam Hillborne geometry chart I could find 
>> 
>>  
>> didn't include a row for 58cm; I assume that they weren't made in that 
>> production run. An updated geometry chart would be handy. In the meantime, 
>> I assume it's reasonable to assume that the rear spacing is still 135mm, 
>> and the TT will likely measure somewhere around 60cm. Other build-related 
>> questions may suggest themselves shortly. Interpolating between 56cm and 
>> 60cm geometry data to estimate 58cm geometry seems like a safe bet...
>>
>> rod
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Bob Lovejoy]

Rod,

I am assuming this one is valid: 
 
https://www.rivbike.com/pages/geometry

I think the one you were seeing is for the earlier (earliest?) versions.

Bob


On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 5:18:34 PM UTC-6, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> The only Sam Hillborne geometry chart I could find 
> 
>  
> didn't include a row for 58cm; I assume that they weren't made in that 
> production run. An updated geometry chart would be handy. In the meantime, 
> I assume it's reasonable to assume that the rear spacing is still 135mm, 
> and the TT will likely measure somewhere around 60cm. Other build-related 
> questions may suggest themselves shortly. Interpolating between 56cm and 
> 60cm geometry data to estimate 58cm geometry seems like a safe bet...
>
> rod
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Rod Holland]

The only Sam Hillborne geometry chart I could find 

 
didn't include a row for 58cm; I assume that they weren't made in that 
production run. An updated geometry chart would be handy. In the meantime, 
I assume it's reasonable to assume that the rear spacing is still 135mm, 
and the TT will likely measure somewhere around 60cm. Other build-related 
questions may suggest themselves shortly. Interpolating between 56cm and 
60cm geometry data to estimate 58cm geometry seems like a safe bet...

rod


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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Belopsky]

My guess, and it is only a guess, is that there was a muckup with the 
fabrication (I doubt it is anything else because the geometry did not 
change as they've had the 51cm frames before.)

On Tuesday, January 9, 2018 at 11:25:32 AM UTC-5, nash...@gmail.com wrote:
>
> Yeah, that seems like a strange comment in a post asking people to buy a 
> frame.  

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[nash5510]

Yeah, that seems like a strange comment in a post asking people to buy a frame. 
 

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Rusty Click]

Rod, You're  going to love the way the Sam rides.  I have a 60, non-canti 
Sam that I have had the pleasure to ride for the past 6+ years.


On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 4:02:42 PM UTC-5, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> Last night I read Grant's Blahg, and these words clicked for me: "Don't 
> buy what you don't need, but also don't wait too long if it's in your 
> cards, anyway." So I ordered a 58cm Canti-Sam frameset, which joins a 59cm 
> Ocean Air Rambler F/F/HS+brakes and an old Nobilette go-fast frame and fork 
> in the winter-build queue. I guess that puts me at n+3, and I'm not sure 
> which build will come first, now, but it did seem like the time to buy a 
> Rivendell, from Rivendell.
>
> rod
>

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Surlyprof]

>From one canti-Sam owner to all of the new ones, you’re going to love it.  My 
>only criticism is that it’s so comfy and versatile that It’s made it difficult 
>to justify an n+1 with the wife.  BTW...the cx50 brakes make wheel changes a 
>breeze.

Enjoy the ride!
John

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Bruce d]

I, too, decided it was the time to buy a new Sam.   I had planned to wait a 
year and sell a bike, or first, or look for a used one, but I decided it was 
time to support Rivendell directly.  

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[tc]

Congrats, Rod!  I love my 58 Sam.  It's just 'different', in such a good, 
reliable, 'everything just fits' way.  And, it's a beaut to look at, to 
boot.  Enjoy!

Tom

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[John Bokman]

Rod, good for you. I have two bikes, a 61cm  OAC Rambler, and a 58cm Sam. 
Both fantastic bikes; they always bring glee. Build them soon as you can!

On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 1:02:42 PM UTC-8, Rod Holland wrote:
>
> Last night I read Grant's Blahg, and these words clicked for me: "Don't 
> buy what you don't need, but also don't wait too long if it's in your 
> cards, anyway." So I ordered a 58cm Canti-Sam frameset, which joins a 59cm 
> Ocean Air Rambler F/F/HS+brakes and an old Nobilette go-fast frame and fork 
> in the winter-build queue. I guess that puts me at n+3, and I'm not sure 
> which build will come first, now, but it did seem like the time to buy a 
> Rivendell, from Rivendell.
>
> rod
>

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Christopher Murray]

"Don't get a 51.” That’s definitely an interesting line. I’d guess there is 
something different about the sizing, that they are experimenting with some 
aspect of the geometry, and/or there is some information that Rivendell wants 
anyone who buys one to know before they buy— tire clearance?, toe clip overlap? 
etc? different lugs? delivery time? H

I think I’d be a 55 but I test rode a 56 a few years back when Waterford made 
them. It was too big by the smallest amount. It perfectly didn’t fit me. 

Cheers!
Chris

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Belopsky]

What do you all make of the "Don't get a 51. News on that forthcoming but 
not here. Details later."

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[John G.]

Weird--Cumil the Peeper just sold me a Schmidt dyno light. He told me he 
gets good use of them in the tunnels of Slovakia.

Those BTO wheels all look good. They have a Cliffhanger dyno set! 



On Monday, January 8, 2018 at 4:10:48 PM UTC-5, Carla Waugh wrote:
>
> Congrats! I am also a Sam owner!

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[RBW] Re: Cumil the Peeper sold me a Canti-Sam frameset

[Bob Lovejoy]

Rod,

Congrats on the decision and the future new bike!  I, too, ordered a 58cm 
Canti-Sam (black/cream though I know the sage/cream will be beautiful as 
well) and am extremely excited for the coming build and rides.  It dawned 
on me that I have loved every Rivendell I have been lucky enough to own and 
ride (Romulus, Appaloosa, Cheviot... the Romulus now sadly departed).  I 
had always told myself if I found a cantilever Sam in my size I would do my 
best to bring it home but I always thought it would a used one.  When they 
announced the latest canti versions, I knew I was going to be in trouble 
but a trouble that made me smile.

It also dawned on me that I just did not care as much as I should about 
most of the new tech and changes in the modern bikes I was looking at. 
 Cool stuff said my head, yawn and so-what said the voice inside.  I just 
love riding, exploring, and being able to successfully work on and 
experiment with the bikes I ride.  I also love having Rivendell there as a 
resource and something of a place of refuge... a "storm home" to pull from 
an old Garrison Keillor story.  We vote with our dollars and our 
decisions... Here's to the continued success of Rivendell and all of the 
small bike companies doing their best to survive in this world.  Imagine a 
world without companies like Rivendell?!   No

Anyway, congratulations!  And congratulations for all of the reasons...

Bob Lovejoy
Galesburg, IL

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