[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Mark Schneider]

I confess I've wished for canti bosses on my Homer, mainly though I just 
want to run Paul Mini-Motos because they stop so much better than any 
sidepull/centerpulls I've used with about the same clearance. I think for 
brakes cantilever bosses cost a little more but offer superior clearance in 
most cases. So overall I agree with Tom.
Mark

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 10:24:13 AM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>
> Looking at the new Homer vs. new (canti/V) Sam, the question popped up in 
> my mind, why bother with side pull and center pull brakes any longer?  
> Aesthetics?  And if so, are the aesthetics of canti/V *that *offensive to 
> some?  Is there some technical reason?  I'm asking because I'm truly 
> interested what others think, and don't know why *I* would choose a bike 
> with side/center pulls over canti/V's, all else the same.
>
> If Riv, in an effort to reduce redundancy, and *if* it allowed them to 
> offer more different models (I don't know that it would, just guessing), 
> determined that all future bikes will be offered only with canti/V posts, 
> is there anyone that would be significantly miffed?  The new catalog almost 
> seems hard pressed to justify *significant* differences in Homer/Sam, 
> Atlantis/Joe.
>
> It seems that most on this forum at least, and Riv, are in the bigger tire 
> with fender camp.  I've never read a post about someone wishing for less 
> room for tires and fenders.  The majority tend not to be weight weenies, or 
> at least keep 1 featherweight in their stable for racing, but like their 
> other frames for other reasons.  I don't know if we on this forum are in 
> the majority of all Riv owners, but by looking at the 
> more-decked-out-than-my-Riv "New Bike Saturday" pictures on Riv's 
> instagram, I'm guessing weight is their last concern
>
> In general, I would prefer Riv offer either a Homer or a Sam, and either 
> an Atlantis or a Joe.  I'm making a big assumption that doing so would be 
> financially better, but for some reason it might not be.  Anyway, pick the 
> best of each and introduce Homer Hillborne and Joe Atlantis (kidding, but 
> you know what I mean) Each would offer 650b options in the mid sizes and 
> only canti/V brakes.
>
> And, after ridding itself of those 2 redundancies, inject 1 or 2 new bikes 
> into the mix that are not loaded tourers or country bikes.  I'm no business 
> major, but seems to me that redundant models of bikes isn't far off from 
> the GM failed strategy of offering basically the same car but calling one a 
> Buick X vs. a Pontiac Y vs. a Olds Z, and we know where that ended up.  
>
> I just want Riv to succeed in a big way.  I so love their bikes.  So, I 
> started thinking, in a curious way, if it were me, what would I do 
> differently?  Starting with only canti/V brakes and some 650b options in 
> all/most models might be a place to start.  Curious about others thoughts.  
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[tc]

Well, this has been interesting :)  Thanks to those who offered opinions 
and comments, which I think are netted out below:

   - aesthetics ... sidepulls look right on a road bike
   - now that the homer and atlantis are made in taiwan, and pretty much 
   clones of their formerly-cheaper taiwan twin, the reason to differentiate 
   the models has gone away
   - canti/v forks need to be stouter to offset the higher braking loads 
   (assumption is it'll cost more, or have diff handling? That much more?)
   - some people just want sidepulls and would go elsewhere if not offered 
   (reason not given; maybe aesthetics again.)
   - companies like trek also have lots of model overlap like Riv now has 
   (trek is now a billion dollar company with 2K employees ; Riv isn't.)
   - brazing on cantilevers costs more (does it cost more than a offering 
   an entirely new bike that is a 95% clone?)
   - the diff models offer slightly diff size options (so why not offer 1 
   model of each --  Homer or Sam, or, Atlantis or Joe -- with the full range 
   of sizes?)
   - some people are intimidated by canti brakes (reason not given.  Is it 
   setup/adjustment?   Hmm, so install V brakes...)
   - centerpulls and sidepulls are fine up to 42mm tires (actually w/out 
   fenders, 44mm works on a sidepull Sam fork), so why incur the extra cost 
   (again, worth a whole bike that's a 95% clone?)
   - someone thought i meant make all bikes 650b.  No; I actually said 
   offer 650b in the *mid sizes*, which tends to be Riv's preference anyway, 
   but not all bikes for some reason
   - certain brake pads may make weaker brakes (like sidepulls, 
   centerpulls) as strong as canti/v -- or strong enough, anyway

Obviously everyone has an opinion and none are right or wrong -- just 
different.  It's been interesting to read the comments!

Tom

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Ana Candela]

Could be that choice of brake pads may improve (or not) your braking power, at 
least in my experience. My side-pull brakes work great here in hilly rainy 
Seattle. That said, lately I’m having not-so-great results with salmon pads in 
dry weather. They were recommended for wet conditions over black pads, which 
were grinding my rims away. I will probably go back to black ones...

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I told Joe I would help him set them up, but he balked at paying for my 
flight out there. Oh well. Them's the brakes.

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 11:08:17 AM UTC-4, RichS wrote:
>
> Doesn’t brake function correlate to set up? Mark said his Dia-Compe CPs 
> work fine. Joe said his were abysmal. That’s a huge disparity. 
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Braxton Colagross]

Thank you for a hearty laugh. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[RichS]

Overlap among Grant’s designs has existed for a long time. Weren’t the Road 
Standard and Long Low models similar but for some small differences? Much like 
todays Joe App and the new Atlantis.

Re: brake comments

Doesn’t brake function correlate to set up? Mark said his Dia-Compe CPs work 
fine. Joe said his were abysmal. That’s a huge disparity.

I have no experience with the Dia-Compes. The Paul CPs are superb but doesn’t 
(shouldn’t) any properly set up rim brake system stop you satisfactorily? Not 
withstanding personal preferences or sensitivity to degree of “stopability”.

Best,
Richard

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Hope he has a pair of the excellent crochet gloves from Riv. Personally, I use 
my pump , .

On Thursday, May 31, 2018 at 12:00:56 AM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Sorry, I already sold them to some poor soul who is currently grabbing his 
> front wheel with his hand to stop in time. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Joe Bernard]

Sorry, I already sold them to some poor soul who is currently grabbing his 
front wheel with his hand to stop in time. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I guess I am the Dia Compe/Weinmann 750 brake whisperer. They stop my bikes 
most fabulously. I'd ask you to please send the offending calipers to me, 
but I already have extras waiting for a new build.

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 12:14:24 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Yes, the long reach Dia-Compes are abysmal. I replaced with Pauls Racers 
> and it's a drastic improvement. 

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Linda G]

In that case, I  wish the 51 Roadini (my size) came in 650B!


On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 8:43:35 AM UTC-7, lconley wrote:
>
> Pacenti makes a fairly light 28 spoke "Brevet" wheelset in 650B. That is 
> what I am using to build up a 48cm Roadini for a friend. 
>
> Laing
> Cocoa FL
>
> On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 11:26:45 AM UTC-4, Linda G wrote:
>
>> With a PBH of 80 I like the 650b wheel size. No or reduced toe overlap 
>> and the bike just looks more in proportion. But really light wheels (24/28 
>> spoke rims and "racing" hubs) are not available in that size to my 
>> knowledge. 
>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Joe Bernard]

Yes, the long reach Dia-Compes are abysmal. I replaced with Pauls Racers and 
it's a drastic improvement. 

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[lconley]

Pacenti makes a fairly light 28 spoke "Brevet" wheelset in 650B. That is 
what I am using to build up a 48cm Roadini for a friend. 

Laing
Cocoa FL

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 11:26:45 AM UTC-4, Linda G wrote:

> With a PBH of 80 I like the 650b wheel size. No or reduced toe overlap and 
> the bike just looks more in proportion. But really light wheels (24/28 
> spoke rims and "racing" hubs) are not available in that size to my 
> knowledge. 
>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Steve Palincsar]

Less lever effort required for a given amount of braking power? That 
turned out to be what everybody meant about disc brakes "having more 
power," perhaps it's true here too.   Or, possibly, some old centerpulls 
really don't have all that much braking power, and in the wet that shows 
up?  I've heard that the long reach Diacompe centerpulls are really 
pretty weak.  Just guessing.



On 05/30/2018 10:49 AM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch wrote:
Another data point: I just road a very wet, very muddy Farmer's 
Daughter gravel ride with center pulls, stopped just fine. My Le Tour 
mixte city bike has them as well, and gets ridden rain or shine. 
Traditionalist who ride mostly dry roads? That almost sounds like an 
insult;^) These brakes have been stopping bicycles just fine in all 
weather for generations.


Every once in a great while I wipe down my rims with 000 steel wool 
and alcohol. If I'm using vintage 1970s brake blocks, I like to rough 
them up just a bit with a file. When they wear out, I replace with the 
go-to Koolstops. I'm mystified, given similar brake pad compounds, how 
a V-brake gives any better wet weather stopping power than a center 
pull. But either way, there's a Riv for that!


On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 7:08:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:

I like the old centerpulls on my Fuji 650B conversion, strong
braking with good modulation... until they get wet, then they're
crap until the rims are cleared. Compare that to the V brakes on
my Black Mountain, which are strong all the time. And have better
tire clearance.

So put me in the canti/V camp, save the caliper brakes for
traditionalists who ride on mostly dry roads.

Eric



--
Steve Palincsar
Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Linda G]

With a PBH of 80 I like the 650b wheel size. No or reduced toe overlap and 
the bike just looks more in proportion. But really light wheels (24/28 
spoke rims and "racing" hubs) are not available in that size to my 
knowledge. So 700c is better for a go-fast. I like v-brakes a lot. They 
work in wet and dry conditions and are easy to install and adjust. I 
dislike the R559 sidepulls due to just OK braking in dry weather and 
horrible in wet conditions. But I bought a Roadini with mid-reach sidepulls 
and they seem appropriate for that bike. So even for me one wheel size or 
brake type isn't right all the time. Potential bike buyers live in a huge 
variety of climates and their heights and uses for bikes cover an equally 
wide range. I think that the choices Rivendell offers are appropriate. I 
want a Cheviot in dark green with v-brakes though and they don't make it . 
You can't please everyone.
On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 10:24:13 AM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>
> Looking at the new Homer vs. new (canti/V) Sam, the question popped up in 
> my mind, why bother with side pull and center pull brakes any longer?  
> Aesthetics?  And if so, are the aesthetics of canti/V *that *offensive to 
> some?  Is there some technical reason?  I'm asking because I'm truly 
> interested what others think, and don't know why *I* would choose a bike 
> with side/center pulls over canti/V's, all else the same.
>
> If Riv, in an effort to reduce redundancy, and *if* it allowed them to 
> offer more different models (I don't know that it would, just guessing), 
> determined that all future bikes will be offered only with canti/V posts, 
> is there anyone that would be significantly miffed?  The new catalog almost 
> seems hard pressed to justify *significant* differences in Homer/Sam, 
> Atlantis/Joe.
>
> It seems that most on this forum at least, and Riv, are in the bigger tire 
> with fender camp.  I've never read a post about someone wishing for less 
> room for tires and fenders.  The majority tend not to be weight weenies, or 
> at least keep 1 featherweight in their stable for racing, but like their 
> other frames for other reasons.  I don't know if we on this forum are in 
> the majority of all Riv owners, but by looking at the 
> more-decked-out-than-my-Riv "New Bike Saturday" pictures on Riv's 
> instagram, I'm guessing weight is their last concern
>
> In general, I would prefer Riv offer either a Homer or a Sam, and either 
> an Atlantis or a Joe.  I'm making a big assumption that doing so would be 
> financially better, but for some reason it might not be.  Anyway, pick the 
> best of each and introduce Homer Hillborne and Joe Atlantis (kidding, but 
> you know what I mean) Each would offer 650b options in the mid sizes and 
> only canti/V brakes.
>
> And, after ridding itself of those 2 redundancies, inject 1 or 2 new bikes 
> into the mix that are not loaded tourers or country bikes.  I'm no business 
> major, but seems to me that redundant models of bikes isn't far off from 
> the GM failed strategy of offering basically the same car but calling one a 
> Buick X vs. a Pontiac Y vs. a Olds Z, and we know where that ended up.  
>
> I just want Riv to succeed in a big way.  I so love their bikes.  So, I 
> started thinking, in a curious way, if it were me, what would I do 
> differently?  Starting with only canti/V brakes and some 650b options in 
> all/most models might be a place to start.  Curious about others thoughts.  
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Another data point: I just road a very wet, very muddy Farmer's Daughter 
gravel ride with center pulls, stopped just fine. My Le Tour mixte city 
bike has them as well, and gets ridden rain or shine. Traditionalist who 
ride mostly dry roads? That almost sounds like an insult;^) These brakes 
have been stopping bicycles just fine in all weather for generations. 

Every once in a great while I wipe down my rims with 000 steel wool and 
alcohol. If I'm using vintage 1970s brake blocks, I like to rough them up 
just a bit with a file. When they wear out, I replace with the go-to 
Koolstops. I'm mystified, given similar brake pad compounds, how a V-brake 
gives any better wet weather stopping power than a center pull. But either 
way, there's a Riv for that!

On Wednesday, May 30, 2018 at 7:08:43 AM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> I like the old centerpulls on my Fuji 650B conversion, strong braking with 
> good modulation... until they get wet, then they're crap until the rims are 
> cleared. Compare that to the V brakes on my Black Mountain, which are 
> strong all the time. And have better tire clearance.
>
> So put me in the canti/V camp, save the caliper brakes for traditionalists 
> who ride on mostly dry roads.
>
> Eric
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Eric Daume]

I like the old centerpulls on my Fuji 650B conversion, strong braking with
good modulation... until they get wet, then they're crap until the rims are
cleared. Compare that to the V brakes on my Black Mountain, which are
strong all the time. And have better tire clearance.

So put me in the canti/V camp, save the caliper brakes for traditionalists
who ride on mostly dry roads.

Eric

On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 11:09 PM, 'Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch <
rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com> wrote:

> Lots of folks are intimidated by cantilever brakes. That's just a fact. In
> any case, until you get beyond 42mm tires, centerpulls work fine--my Dia
> Compes allow the easy installation and removal of a 700x43 BG Rock and Road
> with no deflation. Not sure what the clearance is for the biggest Tektro
> sidepulls, but I know my vintage Dia Compe G sidepulls (57mm reach?) take a
> 35 with no issues. Not everybody needs/wants to run the massive tires that
> seem to be so popular at the moment. I personally thing 38-42 works very
> well for most paved and dirt road conditions. The Legolas as I understand
> it is one of the lightest, if not the lightest Rivendell frameset, and
> certainly looks bad-ass with cantis. But that is specifically a bicycle
> built for racing in muddy conditions.
>
> I think the other issue running through this thread--redundancy in
> models--may have to do with the maturation of the designer's view of
> bicycles, and what makes a good and useful one. If you believe the best
> bikes are bikes that can carry more than a power bar and a CO2 cartridge
> and that have tires with a width greater than a quarter and should have
> high or swept back bars for premium enjoyment, then, after time, your bike
> models may start to resemble one another more than they don't. Eventually,
> they breed until you have a mutt, which as we all know is the healthiest,
> happiest breed of dog there is. Personally, I still think most of the
> models are distinct enough to be worthy of continued existence, but perhaps
> with most everything moving to MIT, that will eventually change. I think GP
> has built up a varied and eclectic and distinctive and fun and useful
> ouevre ever since 1994.  And who knows what's down the road?
>
> On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 5:42:18 PM UTC-4, Drw wrote:
>>
>> The brake thing is something that I think people do care about. I
>> personally would like canti mounts on every frame, but I know people who
>> feel the exact opposite.
>>
>> I would love to see it go in the direction of race bike, real world road
>> bike, country bike, tour/off road, and plus mtn bike.
>
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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Benz, Sunnyvale, CA]

I don't have any special insight to Rivendell's thinking, but I will guess 
that cantilever bosses add cost. If you don't need to run extra large tires 
(42mm seems to be around the limit for Tektro's R559), then why incur the 
cost? The fork crown already has a cast-in brake hole, and all Rivendell 
bikes come with a nice multi-function seatstay bridge, so no extra work and 
material is necessary to support sidepull/centerpull brakes.

As for wheels sizes, larger wheels roll better, in the context of the kind 
of moderate mixed terrain routes that Rivendell bikes are designed for. 
However, wheel sizes have impact on geometry, in that larger wheels 
constraint optimal design. For example, with my PBH of 81cm, given a 
requirement of 700x33C tires, and proper front end geometry, I couldn't 
avoid toeclip overlap, even on my custom. There is an optimal wheel size 
for each range of frame sizes, and smaller bikes will require smaller 
wheels, and larger bikes can benefit from larger wheels (without 
significant compromises). Shooing everyone into the 650B size is no 
different than expecting 700C to work well for everyone.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Lots of folks are intimidated by cantilever brakes. That's just a fact. In 
any case, until you get beyond 42mm tires, centerpulls work fine--my Dia 
Compes allow the easy installation and removal of a 700x43 BG Rock and Road 
with no deflation. Not sure what the clearance is for the biggest Tektro 
sidepulls, but I know my vintage Dia Compe G sidepulls (57mm reach?) take a 
35 with no issues. Not everybody needs/wants to run the massive tires that 
seem to be so popular at the moment. I personally thing 38-42 works very 
well for most paved and dirt road conditions. The Legolas as I understand 
it is one of the lightest, if not the lightest Rivendell frameset, and 
certainly looks bad-ass with cantis. But that is specifically a bicycle 
built for racing in muddy conditions.

I think the other issue running through this thread--redundancy in 
models--may have to do with the maturation of the designer's view of 
bicycles, and what makes a good and useful one. If you believe the best 
bikes are bikes that can carry more than a power bar and a CO2 cartridge 
and that have tires with a width greater than a quarter and should have 
high or swept back bars for premium enjoyment, then, after time, your bike 
models may start to resemble one another more than they don't. Eventually, 
they breed until you have a mutt, which as we all know is the healthiest, 
happiest breed of dog there is. Personally, I still think most of the 
models are distinct enough to be worthy of continued existence, but perhaps 
with most everything moving to MIT, that will eventually change. I think GP 
has built up a varied and eclectic and distinctive and fun and useful 
ouevre ever since 1994.  And who knows what's down the road?

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 5:42:18 PM UTC-4, Drw wrote:
>
> The brake thing is something that I think people do care about. I 
> personally would like canti mounts on every frame, but I know people who 
> feel the exact opposite. 
>
> I would love to see it go in the direction of race bike, real world road 
> bike, country bike, tour/off road, and plus mtn bike. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

['Mark in Beacon' via RBW Owners Bunch]

[image: Image result for legolas bicycle]

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 4:51:28 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> For me on a "road bike" build sans a stack of racks and bags, the choice 
> would be aesthetics: I think a lightish steel road bike looks "right" with 
> sidepulls. 

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

I believe consolidating to canti/v-brakes posts on all models would 
actually add, rather than reduce, redundancy.  Riv has a small but rather 
varied line-up but one thing I think really sets them apart is the fact 
that even the Roadini/Roadeo are designed and made to handle more 
rubber/fenders/luggage than your average road bike but while still hitting 
the mark for those that may want a stripped down, lightweight, go fast.  I 
think the impression that Riv is hard pressed (in the new catalog) to 
differentiate significant differences in their line-up is even more telling 
of this versatility of their frames and the fact that although they may be 
optimized for certain types of riding/builds they are still very capable of 
handling more (or less) if/when the opportunity or need ever arises.  Such 
as with their more stout/rugged models, like the Clem, which is made to 
withstand rough terrain and heavy loads but which I've also greatly enjoyed 
riding unloaded on pavement without ever feeling over-equipped. 

Brian Cole
Lawrenceville NJ

On Tuesday, May 29, 2018 at 11:50:18 AM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:

> I don't think canti's look wrong on most any bike, but there's plenty of 
> reasons to use side of center pull brakes. Brazing on cantilever posts also 
> cost more. I think they strike pretty good balance on the brake styles.
>
> Eamon
> Seattle
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Jim Bronson]

Why stop with brakes?  Maybe Riv should just have one model, all things for
all people right?  Your choice whether you want to run 23 mm tires or 63 mm
tires!  One frame tubing spec, one wheel size, for all!  Any color you
want, as long as it is grilliver?

/sarcasm

I agree with the poster that said it would reduce sales.  Some people
prefer a bike with sidepulls, if Riv did not have them, they'd be likely to
go elsewhere.  A Roadeo or a Roadini is a very different animal than the
Atlantis and Appaloosa and thusly different part types accommodated.

Then there's the other point of model overlap.  If Riv wants to have
different models in a similar space what's it to the OP?  Is this some kind
of reaction to the cash flow problems over the wintertime?

I mean, the big manufacturers not only differentiate by model, but then
also by build groupsets, wheels and so forth.  So outfits like Trek, Giant
and Specialized have a byzantine array of models to offer.  In light of
this I don't think having some model overlap in Riv models is a problem, I
mean, the big OEMs have a huge amount of overlap when you consider the
difference between some of these models is as little as 100 grams when
talking about 105 vs Ultegra, etc.

Here's something I ripped from Trek's site about just the various kind of
uses they are thinking about addressing.  And Rivendell has too much
overlap?







On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Jeremy Till  wrote:

> We should also remember that it was Grant that convinced Tektro to start
> producing the R559 (aka "Silver") caliper with it's 55-76mm reach and
> clearance for ~38mm tires and fenders, and this brake was basically the
> raison d'etre for the first A. Homer Hilsens. So it makes sense that he
> would keep speccing it on that bike.
>
>
> On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 10:24:13 AM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>>
>> Looking at the new Homer vs. new (canti/V) Sam, the question popped up in
>> my mind, why bother with side pull and center pull brakes any longer?
>> Aesthetics?  And if so, are the aesthetics of canti/V *that *offensive
>> to some?  Is there some technical reason?  I'm asking because I'm truly
>> interested what others think, and don't know why *I* would choose a bike
>> with side/center pulls over canti/V's, all else the same.
>>
>> If Riv, in an effort to reduce redundancy, and *if* it allowed them to
>> offer more different models (I don't know that it would, just guessing),
>> determined that all future bikes will be offered only with canti/V posts,
>> is there anyone that would be significantly miffed?  The new catalog almost
>> seems hard pressed to justify *significant* differences in Homer/Sam,
>> Atlantis/Joe.
>>
>> It seems that most on this forum at least, and Riv, are in the bigger
>> tire with fender camp.  I've never read a post about someone wishing for
>> less room for tires and fenders.  The majority tend not to be weight
>> weenies, or at least keep 1 featherweight in their stable for racing, but
>> like their other frames for other reasons.  I don't know if we on this
>> forum are in the majority of all Riv owners, but by looking at the
>> more-decked-out-than-my-Riv "New Bike Saturday" pictures on Riv's
>> instagram, I'm guessing weight is their last concern
>>
>> In general, I would prefer Riv offer either a Homer or a Sam, and either
>> an Atlantis or a Joe.  I'm making a big assumption that doing so would be
>> financially better, but for some reason it might not be.  Anyway, pick the
>> best of each and introduce Homer Hillborne and Joe Atlantis (kidding, but
>> you know what I mean) Each would offer 650b options in the mid sizes and
>> only canti/V brakes.
>>
>> And, after ridding itself of those 2 redundancies, inject 1 or 2 new
>> bikes into the mix that are not loaded tourers or country bikes.  I'm no
>> business major, but seems to me that redundant models of bikes isn't far
>> off from the GM failed strategy of offering basically the same car but
>> calling one a Buick X vs. a Pontiac Y vs. a Olds Z, and we know where that
>> ended up.
>>
>> I just want Riv to succeed in a big way.  I so love their bikes.  So, I
>> started thinking, in a curious way, if it were me, what would I do
>> differently?  Starting with only canti/V brakes and some 650b options in
>> all/most models might be a place to start.  Curious about others thoughts.
>>
>> Tom
>>
>>
>>
>>
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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Jeremy Till]

We should also remember that it was Grant that convinced Tektro to start 
producing the R559 (aka "Silver") caliper with it's 55-76mm reach and 
clearance for ~38mm tires and fenders, and this brake was basically the 
raison d'etre for the first A. Homer Hilsens. So it makes sense that he 
would keep speccing it on that bike.   

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 10:24:13 AM UTC-7, tc wrote:
>
> Looking at the new Homer vs. new (canti/V) Sam, the question popped up in 
> my mind, why bother with side pull and center pull brakes any longer?  
> Aesthetics?  And if so, are the aesthetics of canti/V *that *offensive to 
> some?  Is there some technical reason?  I'm asking because I'm truly 
> interested what others think, and don't know why *I* would choose a bike 
> with side/center pulls over canti/V's, all else the same.
>
> If Riv, in an effort to reduce redundancy, and *if* it allowed them to 
> offer more different models (I don't know that it would, just guessing), 
> determined that all future bikes will be offered only with canti/V posts, 
> is there anyone that would be significantly miffed?  The new catalog almost 
> seems hard pressed to justify *significant* differences in Homer/Sam, 
> Atlantis/Joe.
>
> It seems that most on this forum at least, and Riv, are in the bigger tire 
> with fender camp.  I've never read a post about someone wishing for less 
> room for tires and fenders.  The majority tend not to be weight weenies, or 
> at least keep 1 featherweight in their stable for racing, but like their 
> other frames for other reasons.  I don't know if we on this forum are in 
> the majority of all Riv owners, but by looking at the 
> more-decked-out-than-my-Riv "New Bike Saturday" pictures on Riv's 
> instagram, I'm guessing weight is their last concern
>
> In general, I would prefer Riv offer either a Homer or a Sam, and either 
> an Atlantis or a Joe.  I'm making a big assumption that doing so would be 
> financially better, but for some reason it might not be.  Anyway, pick the 
> best of each and introduce Homer Hillborne and Joe Atlantis (kidding, but 
> you know what I mean) Each would offer 650b options in the mid sizes and 
> only canti/V brakes.
>
> And, after ridding itself of those 2 redundancies, inject 1 or 2 new bikes 
> into the mix that are not loaded tourers or country bikes.  I'm no business 
> major, but seems to me that redundant models of bikes isn't far off from 
> the GM failed strategy of offering basically the same car but calling one a 
> Buick X vs. a Pontiac Y vs. a Olds Z, and we know where that ended up.  
>
> I just want Riv to succeed in a big way.  I so love their bikes.  So, I 
> started thinking, in a curious way, if it were me, what would I do 
> differently?  Starting with only canti/V brakes and some 650b options in 
> all/most models might be a place to start.  Curious about others thoughts.  
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[phil k]

I believe cantis means Riv would have to make tubing choices to accommodate 
the stress  on the fork and seat stay. When I was looking at getting a MUSA 
AHH but a canti version, they told me that the fork and seat stay would 
have to be beefed up a little and if I was okay with that.

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 1:24:13 PM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>
> Looking at the new Homer vs. new (canti/V) Sam, the question popped up in 
> my mind, why bother with side pull and center pull brakes any longer?  
> Aesthetics?  And if so, are the aesthetics of canti/V *that *offensive to 
> some?  Is there some technical reason?  I'm asking because I'm truly 
> interested what others think, and don't know why *I* would choose a bike 
> with side/center pulls over canti/V's, all else the same.
>
> If Riv, in an effort to reduce redundancy, and *if* it allowed them to 
> offer more different models (I don't know that it would, just guessing), 
> determined that all future bikes will be offered only with canti/V posts, 
> is there anyone that would be significantly miffed?  The new catalog almost 
> seems hard pressed to justify *significant* differences in Homer/Sam, 
> Atlantis/Joe.
>
> It seems that most on this forum at least, and Riv, are in the bigger tire 
> with fender camp.  I've never read a post about someone wishing for less 
> room for tires and fenders.  The majority tend not to be weight weenies, or 
> at least keep 1 featherweight in their stable for racing, but like their 
> other frames for other reasons.  I don't know if we on this forum are in 
> the majority of all Riv owners, but by looking at the 
> more-decked-out-than-my-Riv "New Bike Saturday" pictures on Riv's 
> instagram, I'm guessing weight is their last concern
>
> In general, I would prefer Riv offer either a Homer or a Sam, and either 
> an Atlantis or a Joe.  I'm making a big assumption that doing so would be 
> financially better, but for some reason it might not be.  Anyway, pick the 
> best of each and introduce Homer Hillborne and Joe Atlantis (kidding, but 
> you know what I mean) Each would offer 650b options in the mid sizes and 
> only canti/V brakes.
>
> And, after ridding itself of those 2 redundancies, inject 1 or 2 new bikes 
> into the mix that are not loaded tourers or country bikes.  I'm no business 
> major, but seems to me that redundant models of bikes isn't far off from 
> the GM failed strategy of offering basically the same car but calling one a 
> Buick X vs. a Pontiac Y vs. a Olds Z, and we know where that ended up.  
>
> I just want Riv to succeed in a big way.  I so love their bikes.  So, I 
> started thinking, in a curious way, if it were me, what would I do 
> differently?  Starting with only canti/V brakes and some 650b options in 
> all/most models might be a place to start.  Curious about others thoughts.  
>
> Tom
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Drw]

I tend to agree with your point. What seems to have started as cheaper/more 
expensive versions of models for USA vs taiwan reasons, feels somewhat silly 
now. I don’t really understand keeping joe and Atlantis or Sam and homer, since 
they are now functionally equivalent frames made in the same factory in the 
same country. I don’t know anything about business but it seems like maybe not 
a good idea to put in very expensive purchase orders for 2 versions of the same 
thing for a company of this size. 

The brake thing is something that I think people do care about. I personally 
would like canti mounts on every frame, but I know people who feel the exact 
opposite.

I would love to see it go in the direction of race bike, real world road bike, 
country bike, tour/off road, and plus mtn bike. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Joe Bernard]

For me on a "road bike" build sans a stack of racks and bags, the choice would 
be aesthetics: I think a lightish steel road bike looks "right" with sidepulls. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[tc]

Hey Patrick, evidently yes, at least Riv says that's how you'd pick between 
them.  From the new Riv catalog, emphasis mine: 

"Sam is a hair stouter, so we give it more burly points than Homer, *but 
the Sam and Homer are 95 percent functional clones, and you can pick by 
color or brake type*."

Thus my point, esp. since neither Sam nor Homer are featherweight carbon 
wannbes, so I don't think anyone can say choosing 1 brake over the other 
would be done for weight of its brakes.  If not weight, then what?  Grant 
himself says pick by color or brake type.  You get wider tires & fenders 
with canti/V, and I believe the consensus is that sidepulls are technically 
weaker, whatever.  And nothing's preventing anyone from putting skinny 
tires on a canti/V brake bike.

Tom


On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 2:16:07 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This I don't get. Are buyers choosing between very similar or identical 
> frames or bikes because of the type of rim brake?
>

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[tc]

Hey Joe, yep I agree making "*all models essentially the same v-brake bike* 
would...reduce sales".  To clarify to you and others, that's not what I was 
suggesting.  I was wondering out loud if all Riv models (and they would be 
different models with different purposes) had only canti/V, all if all 
models offered both 650b and 700c wheels, would that upset anyone.  To the 
point of saying, oh well, no more Riv's for me.  

Do sidepulls on a road bike -- a Riv that you otherwise love -- reduce 
weight so much that, if not offered,  would cause anyone to say oh well, 
that's not for me.  It's an interesting question to me anyway.

Tom

On Monday, May 28, 2018 at 1:33:19 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> A lot of people own more than one Riv, and usually one of them is a "road 
> bike" with sidepulls and a lighter build. Making all the models essentially 
> the same v-brake bike would, I think, reduce sales. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Patrick Moore]

This I don't get. Are buyers choosing between very similar or identical
frames or bikes because of the type of rim brake?

On Mon, May 28, 2018 at 11:59 AM, tc  wrote:

> Hey Joe, yep I agree making "*all models essentially the same v-brake
> bike* would...reduce sales".
>

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[ted]

Not concerned about the weight, but I do prefer side / center pull brakes 
unless I want more clearance than they provide. It would make me sad if all 
future Roadeo Roadini and AHH frames were canti / v brake only. Sams have gone 
back and forth a few times. With the new MIT AHH bringing that models price 
point down a bunch, going back to canti Sams makes sense to me.

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[RBW] Re: Model redundancy: Why not offer only canti/V brakes on all models? Why not offer a 650b on every model?

[Garth]

>
>  I have no idea whatsoever on the running a business as such ... or what 
> inspires a person and in what ways .  Who am I to say ... "you should or 
> should not do this or that or the other" ?  Based on what assumptions and 
> presumptions but of myself ?  As far as I'm concerned I'd be speaking 
> "about the business" and not "AS the business" .   Like the difference 
> between "talking about" riding a bike, and actually riding a bike. 
>

  Yes, I realize this is all about "talking about such and such" and it 
ever be so... so carry on ... and smile .  It never hurts to smile ... ever 
 and no reason is the only reason worthy of a smile. 

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