[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Austin B.]

Glad to hear I'm not the only one with the consistent bike 
reconfiguration affliction, er, hobby.


Trust me I do it, too. I sweat all those details to the extreme while I’m 
> doing the build. Then after I ride it a few times I remember that a pound 
> here or there doesn’t matter all that much if the ride is great.  I worked 
> hard to bring in the Leo build as close to 20 pounds as possible. 
>
>  I’m already in the midst of a reconfiguration project that will add a 
> tiny bit of weight to several bikes for good reasons. Here’s the tedious 
> list: 
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[jack loudon]

Bill said:  "If I wanted a more expensive Leo, I’d probably let Grant 
design that for me."

It's good of you to say that.  At one time I considered having Grant's 
geometry replicated by another builder in welded lightweight tubing, but 
wouldn't do this without getting Grant's consent and probably paying an 
appropriate royalty fee.

Jack

On Saturday, June 23, 2018 at 7:35:10 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I do have plans to order a frame or two from Steve Rex in Sacramento. I 
> also have plans to someday order a frame from Jeff Lyon. If I buy a Lyon it 
> will be a classic 650b Rando like ripped from the pages of BQ. He’s great 
> at those and I think it’s a good idea to hire a builder to build something 
> they know how to build, like to build and are good at building. If I order 
> a Steve Rex it would be either a classic road frame or it would be a 650b 
> adventure/gravel/bikepacker, both of which he’s good at. 
>
> If I wanted a more expensive Leo, I’d probably let Grant design that for 
> me. 
>
> I hope that answers your questions 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Jack confessed to being a little ashamed of weight weenie-ism. 

Trust me I do it, too. I sweat all those details to the extreme while I’m doing 
the build. Then after I ride it a few times I remember that a pound here or 
there doesn’t matter all that much if the ride is great.  I worked hard to 
bring in the Leo build as close to 20 pounds as possible. 

 I’m already in the midst of a reconfiguration project that will add a tiny bit 
of weight to several bikes for good reasons. Here’s the tedious list:

-Shimano XTR 10-speed cranks were the last ones from Shimano with smart 
chainring sizes and 172.5mm length. I bought two of them. 
-I just bought a cabin in Arnold Ca and tagged two bikes to live there: my 
mountain mixte and my Black Mountain Monstercross
-I put the 42/28 XTR crankset on the monstercross so both Arnold Bikes have the 
same cranks 
-the 42/26 172.5mm White Industries VBC that came off the monstercross went on 
my Niner RLT9 for a bit lower gearing for adventure brevets 
-the 44/28 172.5mm White Industries VBC crankset that came off the Niner RLT9 
went onto Leo to make it slightly more ‘sport-touring’
-the Rene Herse 44/30 crankset and White Ind Ti BB are now free for a future 
ultimate Rando build

That’s all complete, and cost zero dollars, just some meditation in the stand. 
Next comes:

-My knee does hit my barcon shifter on my Legolas, and my chain does slap on 
rutted trails. I’m goin to succumb and install a SRAM Force clutch derailer and 
10 speed brifter to improve that. I bought those parts while planning that 
build just in case
-the 10 speed barcon from the Legolas will go on Leo because it is a long reach 
to DT shifters on the upright Leo 
-the 10 speed DT shifters will be a available for an ultimate rando build

It’s pretty clear I’m playing a shell game to justify ordering a new 
Norther/Lyon frameset. It would be great to sell two bikes before I do that...

Bill mad-scientist Lindsay 
El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

I do have plans to order a frame or two from Steve Rex in Sacramento. I also 
have plans to someday order a frame from Jeff Lyon. If I buy a Lyon it will be 
a classic 650b Rando like ripped from the pages of BQ. He’s great at those and 
I think it’s a good idea to hire a builder to build something they know how to 
build, like to build and are good at building. If I order a Steve Rex it would 
be either a classic road frame or it would be a 650b 
adventure/gravel/bikepacker, both of which he’s good at. 

If I wanted a more expensive Leo, I’d probably let Grant design that for me. 

I hope that answers your questions 

Bill Lindsay 
El Cerrito Ca

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[jack loudon]

Bill, thanks for all the informative reporting on your 'Leo'.  I've admired 
this bike from afar and you are making it very difficult for me to resist.  
The Roadini would be a replacement for my Nordavinden, which has not been 
ideal for purely subjective reasons.  I was taken aback when you reported 
the Leo frameset weight of 7.75 lb (my 56 Nordy is 6.25#), but your ride 
report has offset this concern and made me a bit ashamed of my latent 
weight weenie-ism.  Awhile ago you mentioned the possibility of a lighter, 
custom frame built to the geometry of your BMC Road.  Does that still hold 
true, or would your custom road frame now be more along the Roadini lines?

Jack
Seattle

On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 10:38:12 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Followup ride reporting.  I did my 40 mile 3000ft commute to Union City 
> today on the Leo, and I did it "Full Send" as the kids like to say.  In 
> other words, I got after it.  The executive summary is that the Leo is 
> definitely a keeper.  I set PR times on numerous sections that I've ridden 
> many many times.  I definitely had a very good day on the bike, and I'm 
> still feeling that nice euphoria of putting a really good ride down.  At 
> worst, the Leo did not prevent me from having a great day.  The objective 
> fact is, the Leo today (with me on it) was faster than my Black Mountain 
> ever was (with me on it).  Qualitatively, the Leo today spun up faster than 
> the Black Mountain ever did.  I think that's mainly because I had a good 
> day, but I report it because so many people on this board claim to be able 
> to make nuanced comparisons between bikes as if their body and fitness was 
> a constant.  I assure you that my fitness, strength and attitude are not a 
> constant, and that makes it hard for me to make comparative judgments about 
> bikes.  Some people on this board make nuanced comparisons between bikes 
> they haven't ridden in decades.  That depth of recall amazes me, and I 
> don't have it.  I will say my Leo was a rocket today with me on it.  That 
> came into play on the descent of Redwood Road as well.  It's a 28-33mph 
> descent, and the pavement is mediocre.  The bumpiness tended to scrub speed 
> on the Black Mountain, but Leo appeared to roll over the roughness with 
> more stability, less speed-loss, and better comfort (with the identical 
> build kit that had been on the Black Mountain.  I highly recommend the Leo 
> for a non-racing road bike.
>
> It is still kind of shocking to walk the bike, because the bars are SO 
> high when I'm walking the bike.  I'm accustomed to them being lower.  The 
> fact that it's more upright doesn't seem to make it slower.  It does have a 
> 'vibe' or 'attitude' about it that made me feel a wee bit weird getting on 
> it in 'kit'.  Conversely, I felt a wee bit weird getting on the Black 
> Mountain Road *without* kit.  Both were fine in the costume or in 
> civvies, but the difference in vibe is notable.  
>
> BL in EC
>
> On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 12:24:16 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> Austin asked for more nuanced comparisons than I have the vernacular to 
>> describe. So my short answer is that I have not found any discernible 
>> differences in 'Sportiness'.  
>>
>> With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?  I don't 
>> know that the Leo has stouter tubing.  If it does, I do not discern it to 
>> be less flexible
>> Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are 
>> racing bikes, nor do I intend to race).  Not that I can say.  They both go 
>> faster the harder I pedal.  I don't run a power meter, so I don't know if 
>> one accelerates more quickly per unit power input
>> Which one has quicker steering?  Neither that I can discern.  They both 
>> go where my hips tell them to go
>> All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given 
>> they are set up differently) Both are fun
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Christopher Murray asked me my PBH.  

86cm.  

On Friday, June 22, 2018 at 8:50:51 AM UTC-7, Christopher Murray wrote:
>
> Thanks Bill! I just put my Roadini in the work stand to build up. What’s 
> your PBH? From your previous posts, I thought we were about the same size 
> and mine is a 54. 
>
> With only the bars, saddle, and wheels on the thing that strikes me is how 
> high the handlebars are. The bars look almost level with the saddle with 
> the stem slammed. 
>
> Thanks, 
> Chris

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Christopher Murray]

Thanks Bill! I just put my Roadini in the work stand to build up. What’s your 
PBH? From your previous posts, I thought we were about the same size and mine 
is a 54. 

With only the bars, saddle, and wheels on the thing that strikes me is how high 
the handlebars are. The bars look almost level with the saddle with the stem 
slammed. 

Thanks,
Chris

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Belopsky]

Read somewhere else online

low is fast
long is strong

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Dave Grossman]

I hear you Austin.  My issue exactly.  Anti long and low!

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Austin B.]

It’s the Leo’s stack height that did it for me. I’m on a 62cm frame with a 
stack height of 636mm + 50mm of spacers + a VO tall stack stem. I’m at the top 
of my uncut 350mm steerer tube and my bars are still not quite level with my 
saddle.

There aren’t too many XL frames out there that get the stack height up. I still 
think that XL frames with a 6 degree sloping TT look gangly, but I’m going 
function over form here. At least it seems like things are trending in steeper 
TT and higher stacks (and wider tires) as an industry—good stuff!

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[lambbo]

Leo is the best Thanks Bill

On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 7:56:03 PM UTC-4, Dave Grossman wrote:
>
> Ugh Billyou are contunuously making me want to finally get the Leo. 
>  Seems like everything I want in a road bike these days.

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Dave Grossman]

Ugh Billyou are contunuously making me want to finally get the Leo.  Seems 
like everything I want in a road bike these days.

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

I don't mind in the slightest if you refer to yours as "Leo".  I'll be 
interested to see what the 'fill colors' will be in your decals.  My fill 
colors on Grilver are red/green.  The apparent fill colors on the blue are 
transparent/navy.  I imagine orange might get transparent and navy as well, 
but maybe it'll be something different.  Enjoy it.  

Bill

On Thursday, June 21, 2018 at 3:16:31 PM UTC-7, Austin B. wrote:
>
> ^THIS^ is great stuff and is the answer to my "nuanced" questions I asked 
> a couple posts ago. I'm not fast my most standards, but sometimes like to 
> ride fast without being in a hurry (because as Jan H. says "Riding fast is 
> fun"). Occasionally, I just want to push it and want the bike to to respond 
> in kind.
>
> I pulled the trigger on a prebuy for a 61cm Orange Leo last week--feeling 
> good about it. The "kit" doesn't factor in as I've never had/worn one. But 
> then I generally don't like clothes with words on them. 
>
> And I like that you call it "Leo" Bill, and not "Roadini." If you don't 
> mind, I might adopt that nomenclature (as I just did above, see that?)
>
> -Austin
>
>
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Austin B.]

^THIS^ is great stuff and is the answer to my "nuanced" questions I asked a 
couple posts ago. I'm not fast my most standards, but sometimes like to 
ride fast without being in a hurry (because as Jan H. says "Riding fast is 
fun"). Occasionally, I just want to push it and want the bike to to respond 
in kind.

I pulled the trigger on a prebuy for a 61cm Orange Leo last week--feeling 
good about it. The "kit" doesn't factor in as I've never had/worn one. But 
then I generally don't like clothes with words on them. 

And I like that you call it "Leo" Bill, and not "Roadini." If you don't 
mind, I might adopt that nomenclature (as I just did above, see that?)

-Austin




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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Followup ride reporting.  I did my 40 mile 3000ft commute to Union City 
today on the Leo, and I did it "Full Send" as the kids like to say.  In 
other words, I got after it.  The executive summary is that the Leo is 
definitely a keeper.  I set PR times on numerous sections that I've ridden 
many many times.  I definitely had a very good day on the bike, and I'm 
still feeling that nice euphoria of putting a really good ride down.  At 
worst, the Leo did not prevent me from having a great day.  The objective 
fact is, the Leo today (with me on it) was faster than my Black Mountain 
ever was (with me on it).  Qualitatively, the Leo today spun up faster than 
the Black Mountain ever did.  I think that's mainly because I had a good 
day, but I report it because so many people on this board claim to be able 
to make nuanced comparisons between bikes as if their body and fitness was 
a constant.  I assure you that my fitness, strength and attitude are not a 
constant, and that makes it hard for me to make comparative judgments about 
bikes.  Some people on this board make nuanced comparisons between bikes 
they haven't ridden in decades.  That depth of recall amazes me, and I 
don't have it.  I will say my Leo was a rocket today with me on it.  That 
came into play on the descent of Redwood Road as well.  It's a 28-33mph 
descent, and the pavement is mediocre.  The bumpiness tended to scrub speed 
on the Black Mountain, but Leo appeared to roll over the roughness with 
more stability, less speed-loss, and better comfort (with the identical 
build kit that had been on the Black Mountain.  I highly recommend the Leo 
for a non-racing road bike.

It is still kind of shocking to walk the bike, because the bars are SO high 
when I'm walking the bike.  I'm accustomed to them being lower.  The fact 
that it's more upright doesn't seem to make it slower.  It does have a 
'vibe' or 'attitude' about it that made me feel a wee bit weird getting on 
it in 'kit'.  Conversely, I felt a wee bit weird getting on the Black 
Mountain Road *without* kit.  Both were fine in the costume or in civvies, 
but the difference in vibe is notable.  

BL in EC

On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 12:24:16 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Austin asked for more nuanced comparisons than I have the vernacular to 
> describe. So my short answer is that I have not found any discernible 
> differences in 'Sportiness'.  
>
> With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?  I don't 
> know that the Leo has stouter tubing.  If it does, I do not discern it to 
> be less flexible
> Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are 
> racing bikes, nor do I intend to race).  Not that I can say.  They both go 
> faster the harder I pedal.  I don't run a power meter, so I don't know if 
> one accelerates more quickly per unit power input
> Which one has quicker steering?  Neither that I can discern.  They both go 
> where my hips tell them to go
> All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given 
> they are set up differently) Both are fun
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Dave Grossman]

I didnt know about the sparkling orange until now.oh man.  Now I want one 
even more.

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Joe Bernard]

Hey Bill, is Inspiration Point that spot with the circular parking area at 
Tilden Park?

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Austin B.]

Thanks for the reply, Bill. I appreciate the time you took and, despite 
your claims to not having the vocabulary to reply, your comments were much 
more helpful than you might think. I now have a clear preference on which 
frame to choose.

Thanks again!
Austin

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Austin asked for more nuanced comparisons than I have the vernacular to 
describe. So my short answer is that I have not found any discernible 
differences in 'Sportiness'.  

With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?  I don't 
know that the Leo has stouter tubing.  If it does, I do not discern it to 
be less flexible
Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are 
racing bikes, nor do I intend to race).  Not that I can say.  They both go 
faster the harder I pedal.  I don't run a power meter, so I don't know if 
one accelerates more quickly per unit power input
Which one has quicker steering?  Neither that I can discern.  They both go 
where my hips tell them to go
All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given they 
are set up differently) Both are fun

I'm sorry that I don't have the sensibilities or the words to be of more 
help to you.  I do builds with a purpose.  If the build serves the purpose, 
I keep it.  If the build doesn't serve the purpose, I move along.  I think 
the Black Mountain and the Leo are both great foundations for a pretty 
broad array of builds.  I think you should buy one of each, and set them up 
in complementary ways.  I have one of each, and I'm happy about that.  The 
bikes in my stable enable a broad array of ride-types.  I don't sweat the 
nuances of "sportiness" that I don't care about.  I dwell on enjoying the 
rides.  This morning's ride was a 10 mile round trip into Berkeley to buy 
some cheese and scones at Cheese Board and a pound of coffee at Vine Street 
Peet's.  The nuance I enjoyed the most was the accordion player outside of 
Cheese Board on a day so beautiful that it almost brought a tear to my 
eye.  Especially in that neighborhood, near Chez Panisse, on a day where 
Anthony Bourdain chose to take his own life, I'm reminded to fret less on 
the things that I can allow myself to not fret about.  Cycling is my 
meditation, builds are a form of my self-expression.  "Planing", 
"Sportiness" and similar nuances just aren't that important to me.  

I will gladly put money in Mike Varley's register in the future, and I will 
gladly put money in Rivendell's register in the future.  Choose one and 
enjoy it!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 11:11:41 AM UTC-7, Austin B. wrote:
>
> Hi Bill,
>
> I read your above thread and your initial ride report. I saw that you 
> found the Roadini to be fast and stable. I am curious how it compares to 
> your BMC in more specific ways which I attribute to "Sportiness" if you 
> have found any to be discernible. 
>
> With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?
> Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are 
> racing bikes, nor do I intend to race)
> Which one has quicker steering?
> All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given 
> they are set up differently)
>
> I ask because I ride a large frame, I'm mid-40's and want a tall stack, 
> and I want a sporty, lively ride. I'm considering a Road+ vs a Roadini. 
> Currently, I ride a Soma ES but the stack isn't quite high enough. And I 
> have a strong desire for an orange bike--the orange Roadini is really 
> appealing.
>
>
> Thanks!
> Austin B.
> Sykesville, MD
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Austin B.]

Hi Bill,

I read your above thread and your initial ride report. I saw that you found 
the Roadini to be fast and stable. I am curious how it compares to your BMC 
in more specific ways which I attribute to "Sportiness" if you have found 
any to be discernible. 

With stouter tubing, is the Roadini less flexible than the BMC?
Does either the BMC or Roadini spin up/accelerate faster (neither are 
racing bikes, nor do I intend to race)
Which one has quicker steering?
All things being equal, is one more "fun" to ride (might be hard given they 
are set up differently)

I ask because I ride a large frame, I'm mid-40's and want a tall stack, and 
I want a sporty, lively ride. I'm considering a Road+ vs a Roadini. 
Currently, I ride a Soma ES but the stack isn't quite high enough. And I 
have a strong desire for an orange bike--the orange Roadini is really 
appealing.


Thanks!
Austin B.
Sykesville, MD

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Now that there is a forthcoming batch of Leos in orange, your decision should 
be even easier. 

BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[John G.]

Be my spirit guide, Bill! That's all I'm asking of ya! (I jest).

I always appreciate your observations about bikes, and was curious about 
overall impressions, especially on handling. I've ridden enough bikes and 
know enough about my own style of riding that I wouldn't expect myself to 
be significantly faster on either, and that what's comfy for me may be 
different than what's comfy for you. Your thoughts below are 
helpful--thanks for sharing them.

My Black Mtn is stowed away at my parents, mostly because my identically 
functional Mercian seemed to be quickly accumulating rust when left in 
their basement. 

On Wednesday, June 6, 2018 at 12:44:50 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> John G asked if I had any more thoughts. 
>
> I’m not sure what exactly you are after. Are you asking which frame is 
> ‘better’?  Are you asking which frame I like more?  Are you asking which 
> frame is faster?  Are you asking which one is more comfortable or more 
> versatile?   
>
> If you want to buy one or the other and want me to decide for you, it has 
> more to do with you.  Both are very nice. Both are great values. If you 
> always ride in ‘kit’ and always ride with the club folks in ‘kit’ and 
> regard yourself as an athlete and keep track of your PRs on Strava, then I 
> guess I would lean towards the Black Mountain. It’s serious but smart. If 
> you like having a less ‘serious ‘ attitude towards your rides and want more 
> of a Just Ride road bike, I’d lean towards the Leo. 
>
> BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

John G asked if I had any more thoughts. 

I’m not sure what exactly you are after. Are you asking which frame is 
‘better’?  Are you asking which frame I like more?  Are you asking which frame 
is faster?  Are you asking which one is more comfortable or more versatile?  

If you want to buy one or the other and want me to decide for you, it has more 
to do with you.  Both are very nice. Both are great values. If you always ride 
in ‘kit’ and always ride with the club folks in ‘kit’ and regard yourself as an 
athlete and keep track of your PRs on Strava, then I guess I would lean towards 
the Black Mountain. It’s serious but smart. If you like having a less ‘serious 
‘ attitude towards your rides and want more of a Just Ride road bike, I’d lean 
towards the Leo. 

BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[John G.]

Bill, any more thoughts on the Roadini vs Black Mtn Road? I went a size 
smaller than I should've on my Black Mtn, and I'm thinking of swapping its 
parts over to a 61cm Roadini. With a 90 pbh, I'm at the very lowest end of 
the range on a 61cm.

On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 9:23:30 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Stoker asked whether I considered a stem with less rise. Yes, I considered 
> purchasing a stem with less rise vs using the stem that I had. I elected to 
> use the stem that I had on hand already, going for a less ‘racy’ position 
> for the time being. I was going for a ‘sport touring’ setup in the classic 
> 1980s sense. I think I nailed it. 
>
> Bill Lindsay 
> El Cerrito Ca 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Stoker asked whether I considered a stem with less rise. Yes, I considered 
purchasing a stem with less rise vs using the stem that I had. I elected to use 
the stem that I had on hand already, going for a less ‘racy’ position for the 
time being. I was going for a ‘sport touring’ setup in the classic 1980s sense. 
I think I nailed it. 

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito Ca 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[stoker]

Nice build. You mention the bars are higher than most of your other builds - 
curious if you considered a stem with less rise? Or were you specifically 
interested in a higher position?

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

No offense taken. My given name is William. My grandfather was Will. I go by 
Bill or Bubba. Old high school friends call me Cat. Ex coworkers from the bike 
shop call me Blintz. The kids on the high school team are actively engineering 
a new nickname. My fake rapper name was “Vanilla Bean”. 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Abcyclehank]

Bill L.  My apologies for referencing you as Will.  Hope that does not ruin my 
credibility regarding appreciating your posts about the team.

I stand by my harlequin theory however.  

Ryan “horrible with names” Hankinson
Somewhere in Michigan. 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Regarding the tape pattern, I went with this one quite deliberately. The 
“Roadini” text on the downtube is filled with two tone red and green on one 
side. Red on top green on the bottom.  On the other side of the downtube the 
full is reversed: green on top red on the bottom. The wrap matches this effect 
on each side. 

The other wraps I considered were:  

All red on one side, all green on the other
All red on one side, except green strips at the brakelever. All green on the 
other side, except red strips at the breakelever 
Red and green harlequin. 
Red on top on both sides. Green on the bottom

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Abcyclehank]

No Bill you are clearly mistaken.  If William has done a diamond harlequin 
pattern the time would have been clearly faster.  He mentioned 4 potential wrap 
configurations; I think the route should be attempted to fine the fastest bar 
tape.

On a more serious note I commend and enjoy each story William posts about the 
mountain bike team.  As a coach for 29 consecutive years I take great joy in 
reading and hearing his genuinely proud joy in their progress and 
accomplishments.

Ryan Hankinson
West Michigan

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Eberle in Columbus, Ohio]

I think the Red-Green "tape effect" made that record possible. There's no other 
possible explanation.

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Eric Karnes]

That's your daily view. Why do I live in Philadelphia, again?

And congrats!

Eric


On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 1:18:02 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Pics or it didn't happen:
>
>
> 
>
> Perfect day in El Cerrito
>
>
> On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I took Leo out for a first ride this morning on my normal 22 mile loop 
>> with 1800ft climbing around Wildcat Canyon.  It rode like a road bike, it 
>> rode like a Rivendell.  The setup is quite a bit more upright than my Black 
>> Mountain had been, so if I felt like sitting up, that was easier.  In full 
>> tuck, the stem was closer to my face than I was used to, but I was still 
>> able to get wherever I needed to go.  I didn't notice anything 
>> objectionable about the long chainstays, and the handling was exceptionally 
>> stable, so possibly the long chainstays helped achieve that.  On this loop, 
>> I decided to go "full send", as the kids like to say, on a ~10min segment 
>> from the top of Inspiration Point to the top of Spruce.  It's a roughly 3.5 
>> mile segment winding through the Berkeley hills.  It's a fast, gradually 
>> descending segment, dropping about 200 ft total.  To make a good time you 
>> have to carry momentum and power out of every turn. There's one very short 
>> very steep ~15% climbing section that you can climb at ~20mph if you sprint 
>> hard.  It's a good benchmark road section.  Absolutely every roadie in the 
>> East Bay knows it, and there are roughly 10,000 Strava times to compare 
>> yourself against, running the spectrum from cruisers to pro-level racers.  
>> I did a personal best on the Leo Roadini, at 8:24, 19 seconds faster than I 
>> did the day before on my Legolas (with knobbies) and was in the top 6% 
>> all-time.  Considering how many of those top 6% were done on <18 pound 
>> crabon race bikes, I think Leo qualifies as 'plenty fast'.  The best part 
>> of that result was that I was 2 seconds faster than the best time of our 
>> best racer on the high school mountain bike team.  Matt just finished 5th 
>> in the State in Varsity boys, so any time I can put up a time better than 
>> him, I celebrate.  
>>
>> Bill call-me-Leo Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>>
>>> My Black Mountain Monster Cross and this Leo are set up quite 
>>> differently in order to play different roles in my stable. 
>>>
>>>  If you want one of each and want to set them up differently and want to 
>>> use them for different kinds of rides , you’ll like them both. 
>>>
>>> If you want one of each and want to set them up the same and want to use 
>>> them for the same kinds of rides and want them to provide significantly 
>>> different cycling experiences on the same routes, you’ll likely be 
>>> disappointed. 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Pics or it didn't happen:



Perfect day in El Cerrito


On Sunday, May 27, 2018 at 10:15:02 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I took Leo out for a first ride this morning on my normal 22 mile loop 
> with 1800ft climbing around Wildcat Canyon.  It rode like a road bike, it 
> rode like a Rivendell.  The setup is quite a bit more upright than my Black 
> Mountain had been, so if I felt like sitting up, that was easier.  In full 
> tuck, the stem was closer to my face than I was used to, but I was still 
> able to get wherever I needed to go.  I didn't notice anything 
> objectionable about the long chainstays, and the handling was exceptionally 
> stable, so possibly the long chainstays helped achieve that.  On this loop, 
> I decided to go "full send", as the kids like to say, on a ~10min segment 
> from the top of Inspiration Point to the top of Spruce.  It's a roughly 3.5 
> mile segment winding through the Berkeley hills.  It's a fast, gradually 
> descending segment, dropping about 200 ft total.  To make a good time you 
> have to carry momentum and power out of every turn. There's one very short 
> very steep ~15% climbing section that you can climb at ~20mph if you sprint 
> hard.  It's a good benchmark road section.  Absolutely every roadie in the 
> East Bay knows it, and there are roughly 10,000 Strava times to compare 
> yourself against, running the spectrum from cruisers to pro-level racers.  
> I did a personal best on the Leo Roadini, at 8:24, 19 seconds faster than I 
> did the day before on my Legolas (with knobbies) and was in the top 6% 
> all-time.  Considering how many of those top 6% were done on <18 pound 
> crabon race bikes, I think Leo qualifies as 'plenty fast'.  The best part 
> of that result was that I was 2 seconds faster than the best time of our 
> best racer on the high school mountain bike team.  Matt just finished 5th 
> in the State in Varsity boys, so any time I can put up a time better than 
> him, I celebrate.  
>
> Bill call-me-Leo Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> My Black Mountain Monster Cross and this Leo are set up quite differently 
>> in order to play different roles in my stable. 
>>
>>  If you want one of each and want to set them up differently and want to 
>> use them for different kinds of rides , you’ll like them both. 
>>
>> If you want one of each and want to set them up the same and want to use 
>> them for the same kinds of rides and want them to provide significantly 
>> different cycling experiences on the same routes, you’ll likely be 
>> disappointed. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

I took Leo out for a first ride this morning on my normal 22 mile loop with 
1800ft climbing around Wildcat Canyon.  It rode like a road bike, it rode 
like a Rivendell.  The setup is quite a bit more upright than my Black 
Mountain had been, so if I felt like sitting up, that was easier.  In full 
tuck, the stem was closer to my face than I was used to, but I was still 
able to get wherever I needed to go.  I didn't notice anything 
objectionable about the long chainstays, and the handling was exceptionally 
stable, so possibly the long chainstays helped achieve that.  On this loop, 
I decided to go "full send", as the kids like to say, on a ~10min segment 
from the top of Inspiration Point to the top of Spruce.  It's a roughly 3.5 
mile segment winding through the Berkeley hills.  It's a fast, gradually 
descending segment, dropping about 200 ft total.  To make a good time you 
have to carry momentum and power out of every turn. There's one very short 
very steep ~15% climbing section that you can climb at ~20mph if you sprint 
hard.  It's a good benchmark road section.  Absolutely every roadie in the 
East Bay knows it, and there are roughly 10,000 Strava times to compare 
yourself against, running the spectrum from cruisers to pro-level racers.  
I did a personal best on the Leo Roadini, at 8:24, 19 seconds faster than I 
did the day before on my Legolas (with knobbies) and was in the top 6% 
all-time.  Considering how many of those top 6% were done on <18 pound 
crabon race bikes, I think Leo qualifies as 'plenty fast'.  The best part 
of that result was that I was 2 seconds faster than the best time of our 
best racer on the high school mountain bike team.  Matt just finished 5th 
in the State in Varsity boys, so any time I can put up a time better than 
him, I celebrate.  

Bill call-me-Leo Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:27:02 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> My Black Mountain Monster Cross and this Leo are set up quite differently 
> in order to play different roles in my stable. 
>
>  If you want one of each and want to set them up differently and want to 
> use them for different kinds of rides , you’ll like them both. 
>
> If you want one of each and want to set them up the same and want to use 
> them for the same kinds of rides and want them to provide significantly 
> different cycling experiences on the same routes, you’ll likely be 
> disappointed. 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Thanks, that's what I figured. I think 57mm brake reach typically means 
32mm without fenders, and 28mm with. Having had a front fender buckle on me 
decades ago, I'm very much in favor of NOT pushing my fender clearances 
(especially on the front).

Eamon

On Friday, May 25, 2018 at 8:20:26 AM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> There’s 9-10mm of clearance at the tightest spots. That’s not enough room 
> for fenders in my book, but it is enough room for some people. If I was 
> intent on running fenders I’d look to go to a true 28-29mm tire. 
>
> Bill

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

My Black Mountain Monster Cross and this Leo are set up quite differently in 
order to play different roles in my stable.

 If you want one of each and want to set them up differently and want to use 
them for different kinds of rides , you’ll like them both. 

If you want one of each and want to set them up the same and want to use them 
for the same kinds of rides and want them to provide significantly different 
cycling experiences on the same routes, you’ll likely be disappointed. 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

There’s 9-10mm of clearance at the tightest spots. That’s not enough room for 
fenders in my book, but it is enough room for some people. If I was intent on 
running fenders I’d look to go to a true 28-29mm tire. 

Bill

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Dave Grossman]

Question for feedback later after some riding...how does it compare 
to your Monster Cross?  I should probably just swap wheelsets for my MC and 
not buy this bike.  Question is, how different do they ride?  

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Just curious, Bill... do the Eroicas and those brakes leave room for fenders?

Eamon
Seattle

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

The DT shifters have turned out WAY below the drops, so switching to barcons 
might be a move that happens down the road. 

The other vote for non-downtube shifters might come up if I want to use this as 
a light touring bike. I have a Relevate frame bag that fits well under the top 
tube but then it kind of interferes with the DT shifters when it’s stuffed. 

BL sin EC

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

The label on the Eroica says 700x30 but they measure 32.5 mm on HED Belgium 
23mm outside width rims. 

BL in EC

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bob Ehrenbeck]

Nice job -- very practical build and beautiful bike!

Bob E
 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Edwin W]

Regarding Tom's worry about downtube shifters: a cool photo would be you on 
the bike in your comfortable riding position, and then a picture of you 
shifting. 
You would need some photo assistants, perhaps some props, and a creative 
director, I am sure.

Cool bike, cool bars, tight.

Edwin

On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 10:51:16 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Not use drop bars?!?  That's crazy talk.  Upright just means the tops of 
> the bars are above the saddle.  
>
> The build is pretty much done, just waiting for shellac.  Here are three 
> lousy photos in bad light.  I tried to use flash but forgot about my 
> reflective rim decals and reflective brake cable housing.  Hopefully you 
> get the idea:
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
> The build list goes something like this
>
>
> Frameset: 57cm Leo Roadini, Grilver, FSA headset
>
>
> Wheelset:  HED Belgium Rims, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
> tires, SRAM 11-26 10sp cassette, control tech ti-skewers
>
>
> Drivetrain: Compass/Herse cranks 44/30, White Industries BB, Shimano SPD 
> pedals, CX70 Front der, Dura Ace 7900 Rear Der, Dura Ace 10sp index 
> downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain
>
>
> Components: Shimano BR550 brakes, Shimano 105 brakelevers, Nitto Soba 
> Noodle bars, Nitto Ritchey "XO-1" stem, Nitto 65 Seatpost, Avocet Saddle
>
>
> Accessories: Ti King Cage, Newbaums red and green cloth tape
>
>
> 21.8 pounds as pictured
>
>
> Bill Lindsay
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 7:53:22 AM UTC-7, RichS wrote:
>>
>> Congratulations Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics of the newest 
>> addition to your bike family. "Civilized and upright" sounds like you won't 
>> use drop bars.
>>
>> Best,
>> Richard
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:51:11 PM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>>>
>>> Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 
>>> 1983 Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd 
>>> choose too. It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job 
>>> my Trek came with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.
>>>
>>> Eamon
>>> Seattle
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[tc]

Very nice!  Are the Eroicas 30 wide?  I can't wait for my 61 Roadini to get 
here - all these Roadini builds are making me jealous.  I almost went with 
downtube shifters, too.  But after testing the reach down during a ride on 
my 62 Atlantis, I opted for bar ends for the Roadini.  Felt too much like 
gymnastics on that frame anyway...we'll see.  Congrats!

Tom

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Eric Karnes]

Kudos Bill. Always such great builds!

I'm looking to build some wheels with those White hubs...one of these days.

Eric



On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 11:51:16 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> Not use drop bars?!?  That's crazy talk.  Upright just means the tops of 
> the bars are above the saddle.  
>
> The build is pretty much done, just waiting for shellac.  Here are three 
> lousy photos in bad light.  I tried to use flash but forgot about my 
> reflective rim decals and reflective brake cable housing.  Hopefully you 
> get the idea:
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
>
> 
>
> The build list goes something like this
>
>
> Frameset: 57cm Leo Roadini, Grilver, FSA headset
>
>
> Wheelset:  HED Belgium Rims, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica 
> tires, SRAM 11-26 10sp cassette, control tech ti-skewers
>
>
> Drivetrain: Compass/Herse cranks 44/30, White Industries BB, Shimano SPD 
> pedals, CX70 Front der, Dura Ace 7900 Rear Der, Dura Ace 10sp index 
> downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain
>
>
> Components: Shimano BR550 brakes, Shimano 105 brakelevers, Nitto Soba 
> Noodle bars, Nitto Ritchey "XO-1" stem, Nitto 65 Seatpost, Avocet Saddle
>
>
> Accessories: Ti King Cage, Newbaums red and green cloth tape
>
>
> 21.8 pounds as pictured
>
>
> Bill Lindsay
>
> El Cerrito, CA
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 7:53:22 AM UTC-7, RichS wrote:
>>
>> Congratulations Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics of the newest 
>> addition to your bike family. "Civilized and upright" sounds like you won't 
>> use drop bars.
>>
>> Best,
>> Richard
>>
>> On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:51:11 PM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>>>
>>> Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 
>>> 1983 Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd 
>>> choose too. It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job 
>>> my Trek came with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.
>>>
>>> Eamon
>>> Seattle
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[lambbo]

incredible!

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 4:26:41 PM UTC-4, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I used to own two Black Mountain Road bikes.  Both 59cm, both orange.  One 
> lives at my mom's house and is set up as an all purpose road bike.  The 
> other, at my house, used to be set up as a racier, lighter stripped down 
> road bike.  I ran across an iBob lister who wanted a Black Mountain road 
> frame for a little less than retail, and we struck a deal.  I took those 
> dollars and my Hail Mary dollars and my Rivendollars to get a Leo Roadini 
> frameset, and I picked that up today.  The build will be exactly what I had 
> on my Black Mountain, except it'll have a quill stem and a 26.8mm 
> seatpost.  The result will be a still-sporty road bike, but one that's a 
> little more upright and civilized.  I think of it as having a vibe similar 
> to what we used to call a "sport touring" bike in the 1980s.  My still-new 
> Legolas will be my aggro-race-bike.  I expect to get right into the build 
> tonight, since I have everything.  Fun detail: the quill stem will be a 
> Nitto-Ritchey-Force from a 1993 XO-1.  I haven't planned out the fit in a 
> super detailed way, but I might end up with the stem totally slammed.  This 
> 57 has a tall headtube.  This frame will allow me to get the bars WAY up, 
> if and when I need to do that.  For now, I expect that they'll be up even 
> when they're down.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> P.S.  To their credit, multiple Riv employees asked "What are you buying 
> this for?  You've got a road bike!"  When I explained the "trade", then 
> they were like "Oh, OK, that makes sense then"
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Not use drop bars?!?  That's crazy talk.  Upright just means the tops of 
the bars are above the saddle.  

The build is pretty much done, just waiting for shellac.  Here are three 
lousy photos in bad light.  I tried to use flash but forgot about my 
reflective rim decals and reflective brake cable housing.  Hopefully you 
get the idea:







The build list goes something like this


Frameset: 57cm Leo Roadini, Grilver, FSA headset


Wheelset:  HED Belgium Rims, White Industries hubs, Challenge Eroica tires, 
SRAM 11-26 10sp cassette, control tech ti-skewers


Drivetrain: Compass/Herse cranks 44/30, White Industries BB, Shimano SPD 
pedals, CX70 Front der, Dura Ace 7900 Rear Der, Dura Ace 10sp index 
downtube shifters, SRAM 1091 chain


Components: Shimano BR550 brakes, Shimano 105 brakelevers, Nitto Soba 
Noodle bars, Nitto Ritchey "XO-1" stem, Nitto 65 Seatpost, Avocet Saddle


Accessories: Ti King Cage, Newbaums red and green cloth tape


21.8 pounds as pictured


Bill Lindsay

El Cerrito, CA





On Thursday, May 24, 2018 at 7:53:22 AM UTC-7, RichS wrote:
>
> Congratulations Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics of the newest 
> addition to your bike family. "Civilized and upright" sounds like you won't 
> use drop bars.
>
> Best,
> Richard
>
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:51:11 PM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>>
>> Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 
>> 1983 Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd 
>> choose too. It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job 
>> my Trek came with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.
>>
>> Eamon
>> Seattle
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[RichS]

Congratulations Bill. Looking forward to seeing pics of the newest addition 
to your bike family. "Civilized and upright" sounds like you won't use drop 
bars.

Best,
Richard

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 11:51:11 PM UTC-4, Eamon Nordquist wrote:
>
> Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 
> 1983 Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd 
> choose too. It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job 
> my Trek came with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.
>
> Eamon
> Seattle
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

['Eamon Nordquist' via RBW Owners Bunch]

Good deal, Bill. I think the Roadini is a great bike, and if I lost my 1983 
Trek 520, that's what I'd replace it with. Grilver is the color I'd choose too. 
It reminds me of the sweet silver gray metallic Imron paint job my Trek came 
with. I also think the headbadge is the bees knees.

Eamon
Seattle

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[John G.]

I expected no less than Grilver, Bill. Very interested in your comparison of 
the Black Mtn and Roadini. Those long chain stays and that tall headtube look 
real plush. And based on your brevet ride reports, I’m guessing a pound 
isn’t going to slow you down.

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Belopsky]

Looking forward to photos Bill!
My new-to-me Wraith Hustle (Columbus Life tubing + Carbon Whiskey fork) is 
4.56lbs ;)

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

I found my Legolas data from when I was posting about that build.  The 
Legolas frame + fork + headset was 6.30 pounds.  Apples to apples, the 57cm 
Leo Roadini is 1.45 pounds heavier than a 57cm Legolas.  That's almost the 
weight of one full water bottle.  That's pretty consistent with my 
expectations.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 5:12:40 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> We have a good digital scale in the lab at my office.  Frame+fork+headset 
> weighed in at a stoutish  7.75 pounds. I'll separate frame and fork and get 
> those rough weights separately before I start the build, and I'll compare 
> that to my data for my 57 Legolas.  My recent 58cm Black Mountain 
> Monstercross weighed 7.13 pounds for frame + fork + headset.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 1:26:41 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>>
>> I used to own two Black Mountain Road bikes.  Both 59cm, both orange.  
>> One lives at my mom's house and is set up as an all purpose road bike.  The 
>> other, at my house, used to be set up as a racier, lighter stripped down 
>> road bike.  I ran across an iBob lister who wanted a Black Mountain road 
>> frame for a little less than retail, and we struck a deal.  I took those 
>> dollars and my Hail Mary dollars and my Rivendollars to get a Leo Roadini 
>> frameset, and I picked that up today.  The build will be exactly what I had 
>> on my Black Mountain, except it'll have a quill stem and a 26.8mm 
>> seatpost.  The result will be a still-sporty road bike, but one that's a 
>> little more upright and civilized.  I think of it as having a vibe similar 
>> to what we used to call a "sport touring" bike in the 1980s.  My still-new 
>> Legolas will be my aggro-race-bike.  I expect to get right into the build 
>> tonight, since I have everything.  Fun detail: the quill stem will be a 
>> Nitto-Ritchey-Force from a 1993 XO-1.  I haven't planned out the fit in a 
>> super detailed way, but I might end up with the stem totally slammed.  This 
>> 57 has a tall headtube.  This frame will allow me to get the bars WAY up, 
>> if and when I need to do that.  For now, I expect that they'll be up even 
>> when they're down.  
>>
>> Bill Lindsay
>> El Cerrito, CA
>>
>> P.S.  To their credit, multiple Riv employees asked "What are you buying 
>> this for?  You've got a road bike!"  When I explained the "trade", then 
>> they were like "Oh, OK, that makes sense then"
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

We have a good digital scale in the lab at my office.  Frame+fork+headset 
weighed in at a stoutish  7.75 pounds. I'll separate frame and fork and get 
those rough weights separately before I start the build, and I'll compare 
that to my data for my 57 Legolas.  My recent 58cm Black Mountain 
Monstercross weighed 7.13 pounds for frame + fork + headset.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 1:26:41 PM UTC-7, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I used to own two Black Mountain Road bikes.  Both 59cm, both orange.  One 
> lives at my mom's house and is set up as an all purpose road bike.  The 
> other, at my house, used to be set up as a racier, lighter stripped down 
> road bike.  I ran across an iBob lister who wanted a Black Mountain road 
> frame for a little less than retail, and we struck a deal.  I took those 
> dollars and my Hail Mary dollars and my Rivendollars to get a Leo Roadini 
> frameset, and I picked that up today.  The build will be exactly what I had 
> on my Black Mountain, except it'll have a quill stem and a 26.8mm 
> seatpost.  The result will be a still-sporty road bike, but one that's a 
> little more upright and civilized.  I think of it as having a vibe similar 
> to what we used to call a "sport touring" bike in the 1980s.  My still-new 
> Legolas will be my aggro-race-bike.  I expect to get right into the build 
> tonight, since I have everything.  Fun detail: the quill stem will be a 
> Nitto-Ritchey-Force from a 1993 XO-1.  I haven't planned out the fit in a 
> super detailed way, but I might end up with the stem totally slammed.  This 
> 57 has a tall headtube.  This frame will allow me to get the bars WAY up, 
> if and when I need to do that.  For now, I expect that they'll be up even 
> when they're down.  
>
> Bill Lindsay
> El Cerrito, CA
>
> P.S.  To their credit, multiple Riv employees asked "What are you buying 
> this for?  You've got a road bike!"  When I explained the "trade", then 
> they were like "Oh, OK, that makes sense then"
>

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Bill Lindsay]

Obviously Grilver. Come on. The blue is nice but the Grilver is clearly the 
choice for anybody with taste.  ;-P

Seriously, though, I like the Grilver way more, maybe because I have a few 
blue bikes. The Leo headbadge has a growling feline, and the field behind 
the feline is half red and half green, which fits with the Italian 
impression of "Roadini" (and "Leo").  The Grilver has downtube decals that 
also feature the red/green accent colors.  The Blue one has downtube decals 
that do not have the red/green.  I wanted to tie the red/green into the 
whole build, so my bars will be wrapped half-green and half-red.  I've got 
about five different ways to implement a two-tone bar wrap, and I haven't 
decided which one I'm going to choose, but I have the roll of bright red 
and the roll of grassy green Newbaums right here.

BL in EC

On Wednesday, May 23, 2018 at 3:31:36 PM UTC-7, John G. wrote:
>
> Grilver or blue?

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[Jonathan D.]

Excited to hear a ride comparison and see the new build. 

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[John G.]

Grilver or blue?

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[RBW] Re: New Frame Day! Almost a trade of a Black Mountain Road for a LEO

[SeanMac]

Bill,

I have a Black Mountain Road bike that I love.  It is my go-to bike for 
going out for a 1 - 4 hour ride on the road for fun or to "train."  I 
really look forward to hearing your thoughts about how your new Leo 
compares to your BMC road. . . . Oh, and pictures (of course)!

Sean
East Aurora, NY


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