[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

Ha ha ha!!
Living on two wheels by dennis coello

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

If I’m going to live on my bike, I’m going to to stay on the seat instead of 
the top tube, and sometime around mid to late October I will point the bike 
south and not stop until there’s no chance of ice anywhere but in my beach 
drink :-)

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

I read a book about living on your bike and the guy said one can ride on 
the top tube and put one foot down on the ice for balance while riding on 
icy streets.

But I won't ride on wet roads below 35F for fear of an icy crash.
I crashed in dry warm weather going about 5mph on a sidewalk and broke me 
arm fall 2016. So I definitely won't ride in icy conditions.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Adam Kilgas]

I've found that to be true in my case as well; I commuted for several years 
year-round on 25's and 28's here in Indiana, and on most types of snow, the 
narrower tire would cut through it and find some traction.  

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting. 30+ years ago when I lived and worked in downtown WDC, the
bike messengers who braved the snow as often as not did so on racing bikes
with skinny, 23 mm at most, tires.

On Thu, Jan 4, 2018 at 9:27 AM, Philip Kim  wrote:

> also to note, had a friend in chicago who rode 622x28 tires on his snow
> beater bike. claimed they cut through the snow rather than riding on top of
> it. never did that myself.
>
>
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 11:26:32 AM UTC-5, Philip Kim wrote:
>>
>> studded knobs aren't for me. the pumpkin ridge bite into powdered snow on
>> the road really well, and then shed that snow off the tire very well. so
>> the tire actually will rotate in the snow, instead of spinning and digging
>> deeper into the snow with no movement.
>>
>> i didn't really expect much, but its pretty amazing really. Like Deacon,
>> I too, ride slow and steady and have to vary my pedaling a bit. I've been
>> looking for some snow tires too, just surprised that a "smaller" tire works
>> so well. Studded tires have its uses, but i'd rather ride these pumpkin
>> ridges and ride slower/more careful than ride with such heavy tires, with
>> studs that wear out so quickly considering how expensive they are.
>>
>> I am of the belief I should be riding more alert and careful in any
>> inclement weather anyways.
>>
>> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> On/in/through slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter, my Steilacoms are
>>> superior to my racing ralphs, which tend to be more swimmy. I’m not sure
>>> how much is due to narrower tire (38mm v. 2.1”) and how much is knobby
>>> pattern and/or plushness of tires. The Compass tread patters sheds matter
>>> with each tire rotation better than any other knobby I’ve used, so it has a
>>> fresher, cleaner pattern to dig in far more often. (Peanut butter slop and
>>> mud being the exception to this. They are glue.)  But slush, slop, and
>>> frozen peanut butter are perhaps the most challenging to ride through of
>>> cold weather conditions. It’s as much about technique as any other factor.
>>> Good tires without technique will be very frustrating until you learn. Play
>>> with what works, but I find slow and steady speed and pedaling works very
>>> well (and far more so fixed).
>>>
>>> With abandon,
>>> Patrick
>>
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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Philip Kim]

also to note, had a friend in chicago who rode 622x28 tires on his snow 
beater bike. claimed they cut through the snow rather than riding on top of 
it. never did that myself.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 11:26:32 AM UTC-5, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> studded knobs aren't for me. the pumpkin ridge bite into powdered snow on 
> the road really well, and then shed that snow off the tire very well. so 
> the tire actually will rotate in the snow, instead of spinning and digging 
> deeper into the snow with no movement.
>
> i didn't really expect much, but its pretty amazing really. Like Deacon, I 
> too, ride slow and steady and have to vary my pedaling a bit. I've been 
> looking for some snow tires too, just surprised that a "smaller" tire works 
> so well. Studded tires have its uses, but i'd rather ride these pumpkin 
> ridges and ride slower/more careful than ride with such heavy tires, with 
> studs that wear out so quickly considering how expensive they are. 
>
> I am of the belief I should be riding more alert and careful in any 
> inclement weather anyways.
>
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> On/in/through slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter, my Steilacoms are 
>> superior to my racing ralphs, which tend to be more swimmy. I’m not sure 
>> how much is due to narrower tire (38mm v. 2.1”) and how much is knobby 
>> pattern and/or plushness of tires. The Compass tread patters sheds matter 
>> with each tire rotation better than any other knobby I’ve used, so it has a 
>> fresher, cleaner pattern to dig in far more often. (Peanut butter slop and 
>> mud being the exception to this. They are glue.)  But slush, slop, and 
>> frozen peanut butter are perhaps the most challenging to ride through of 
>> cold weather conditions. It’s as much about technique as any other factor. 
>> Good tires without technique will be very frustrating until you learn. Play 
>> with what works, but I find slow and steady speed and pedaling works very 
>> well (and far more so fixed). 
>>
>> With abandon, 
>> Patrick
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Philip Kim]

studded knobs aren't for me. the pumpkin ridge bite into powdered snow on 
the road really well, and then shed that snow off the tire very well. so 
the tire actually will rotate in the snow, instead of spinning and digging 
deeper into the snow with no movement.

i didn't really expect much, but its pretty amazing really. Like Deacon, I 
too, ride slow and steady and have to vary my pedaling a bit. I've been 
looking for some snow tires too, just surprised that a "smaller" tire works 
so well. Studded tires have its uses, but i'd rather ride these pumpkin 
ridges and ride slower/more careful than ride with such heavy tires, with 
studs that wear out so quickly considering how expensive they are. 

I am of the belief I should be riding more alert and careful in any 
inclement weather anyways.

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 10:20:56 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> On/in/through slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter, my Steilacoms are 
> superior to my racing ralphs, which tend to be more swimmy. I’m not sure 
> how much is due to narrower tire (38mm v. 2.1”) and how much is knobby 
> pattern and/or plushness of tires. The Compass tread patters sheds matter 
> with each tire rotation better than any other knobby I’ve used, so it has a 
> fresher, cleaner pattern to dig in far more often. (Peanut butter slop and 
> mud being the exception to this. They are glue.)  But slush, slop, and 
> frozen peanut butter are perhaps the most challenging to ride through of 
> cold weather conditions. It’s as much about technique as any other factor. 
> Good tires without technique will be very frustrating until you learn. Play 
> with what works, but I find slow and steady speed and pedaling works very 
> well (and far more so fixed). 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Deacon Patrick]

On/in/through slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter, my Steilacoms are superior 
to my racing ralphs, which tend to be more swimmy. I’m not sure how much is due 
to narrower tire (38mm v. 2.1”) and how much is knobby pattern and/or plushness 
of tires. The Compass tread patters sheds matter with each tire rotation better 
than any other knobby I’ve used, so it has a fresher, cleaner pattern to dig in 
far more often. (Peanut butter slop and mud being the exception to this. They 
are glue.)  But slush, slop, and frozen peanut butter are perhaps the most 
challenging to ride through of cold weather conditions. It’s as much about 
technique as any other factor. Good tires without technique will be very 
frustrating until you learn. Play with what works, but I find slow and steady 
speed and pedaling works very well (and far more so fixed).

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Belopsky]

How do they ride on slush? Even my studded knobs are terrible
On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 8:37:18 AM UTC-5, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> yep. snowed last night and they ride so well on fresh snow on the streets. 
> i've always wanted a knobby like this for 650bx42. i'm glad i picked these 
> up.
>
> On Wednesday, January 3, 2018 at 9:37:51 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>>
>> Patrick,
>>
>> I am currently riding a bike with the knobby Pumpkin Ridge 650B x 42s 
>> here in Japan (check both the @compasscycle and @bikequarterly Instagram 
>> for some photos). I love the tires for the rides we are doing here in the 
>> winter. Of course, we have to weigh the issues of mold costs and the need 
>> to keep all these different products in stock, but your dream tire and mine 
>> aren't very far apart...
>>
>> Jan Heine
>> Founder
>> Compass Cycles
>> www.compasscycle.com
>>
>>
>> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 11:26:15 AM UTC+9, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>>
>>> Jan, Since you’re “on the line,” I noticed you have been testing 
>>> bikepacking rigs including with wider tires. Do you have any plans for 
>>> supple, 2.1” or wider 700c tires, including nobbies? Your Steilacoms are 
>>> brilliant in snow and gravel/sand and do amazingly well on pavement. I’d 
>>> love a bikepacking tike for my 700c Hunqapillar. Grin. I understand that 
>>> for much of the riding you do, the tires sizes you have for various wheel 
>>> sizes make perfect sense, but there is certainly a market for wider tires 
>>> in 700c and different types of riding. 
>>>
>>> With abandon, 
>>> Patrick
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Philip Kim]

yep. snowed last night and they ride so well on fresh snow on the streets. 
i've always wanted a knobby like this for 650bx42. i'm glad i picked these 
up.

On Wednesday, January 3, 2018 at 9:37:51 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> Patrick,
>
> I am currently riding a bike with the knobby Pumpkin Ridge 650B x 42s here 
> in Japan (check both the @compasscycle and @bikequarterly Instagram for 
> some photos). I love the tires for the rides we are doing here in the 
> winter. Of course, we have to weigh the issues of mold costs and the need 
> to keep all these different products in stock, but your dream tire and mine 
> aren't very far apart...
>
> Jan Heine
> Founder
> Compass Cycles
> www.compasscycle.com
>
>
> On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 11:26:15 AM UTC+9, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Jan, Since you’re “on the line,” I noticed you have been testing 
>> bikepacking rigs including with wider tires. Do you have any plans for 
>> supple, 2.1” or wider 700c tires, including nobbies? Your Steilacoms are 
>> brilliant in snow and gravel/sand and do amazingly well on pavement. I’d 
>> love a bikepacking tike for my 700c Hunqapillar. Grin. I understand that 
>> for much of the riding you do, the tires sizes you have for various wheel 
>> sizes make perfect sense, but there is certainly a market for wider tires 
>> in 700c and different types of riding. 
>>
>> With abandon, 
>> Patrick
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Deacon Patrick]

Oh, boy! Thanks, Jan!

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

Patrick,

I am currently riding a bike with the knobby Pumpkin Ridge 650B x 42s here 
in Japan (check both the @compasscycle and @bikequarterly Instagram for 
some photos). I love the tires for the rides we are doing here in the 
winter. Of course, we have to weigh the issues of mold costs and the need 
to keep all these different products in stock, but your dream tire and mine 
aren't very far apart...

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com


On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 11:26:15 AM UTC+9, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Jan, Since you’re “on the line,” I noticed you have been testing 
> bikepacking rigs including with wider tires. Do you have any plans for 
> supple, 2.1” or wider 700c tires, including nobbies? Your Steilacoms are 
> brilliant in snow and gravel/sand and do amazingly well on pavement. I’d 
> love a bikepacking tike for my 700c Hunqapillar. Grin. I understand that 
> for much of the riding you do, the tires sizes you have for various wheel 
> sizes make perfect sense, but there is certainly a market for wider tires 
> in 700c and different types of riding. 
>
> With abandon, 
> Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Deacon Patrick]

Jan, Since you’re “on the line,” I noticed you have been testing bikepacking 
rigs including with wider tires. Do you have any plans for supple, 2.1” or 
wider 700c tires, including nobbies? Your Steilacoms are brilliant in snow and 
gravel/sand and do amazingly well on pavement. I’d love a bikepacking tike for 
my 700c Hunqapillar. Grin. I understand that for much of the riding you do, the 
tires sizes you have for various wheel sizes make perfect sense, but there is 
certainly a market for wider tires in 700c and different types of riding.

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

Good question, John. It took some time to dig out all that data from the 
many tire tests we did. We never tried to show that our Compass tires were 
fastest – in fact, when we first tested tires, we didn't even sell tires. I 
pulled together the data...

Here are our roll-down tests:

Compass Extralight: 25.3 seconds
Compass Standard: 26.7 seconds
Michelin Pro2 Race: 26.8 seconds
Grand Bois Hetre: 27.1 seconds
Panaracer Pasela (non-Tourguard): 27.3 seconds
Schwalbe Marathon: 28.3 seconds
Rolly-Poly: 28.5 seconds
Maxy-Fasty: 29.8 seconds
Nifty-Swifty: 30.6 seconds

Small differences between tires don't mean much with real-road testing: 
there is always some noise, and our calibration for different temperatures 
on different test days may introduce a slight error. We also didn't test 
the Compass tires in our roll-down tests – they weren't available yet back 
then – but we tested other tires that performed identical in later track 
tests, which allows us to infer their performance. 

What this means is that it's impossible to say whether a Michelin Pro2 Race 
or a Compass Standard is faster... but you can say that you'll be 
significantly faster on a Compass Standard than on a Marathon.

To check out methodology, we also tested tires on a track (paved, not 
wooden) with a power meter. We didn't test all tire models, but we did test 
the following tires on the same day, at 27.78 km/h (17.3 mph). This means 
that the conditions were exactly the same, which reduces the 'noise' 
considerably:

- Compass standard: 157.8 W
- Schwalbe Marathon: 167.6 W
- Rivendell Rolly-Poly: 168.5 W

These results confirmed what we found in our roll-down tests, and since 
they were done at a constant speed, it's easy to see what this means in a 
real-world setting: To keep up on the rider with the first tire, a rider on 
the third tire must put out 7% more power. That is a huge difference – if 
you have two riders of identical fitness, the rider on the slower tires 
would be unable to keep up. And the 'standard' Compass tire isn't even the 
fastest tire we've tested - you can gain an extra 5% over that... If you go 
much faster than 17.3 mph, the difference will be smaller - wind resistance 
becomes more important – but if you go slower, the difference will be 
larger. That is why for most of us, tires make the biggest difference in 
the performance of our bikes.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 8:49:13 AM UTC+9, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Jan
>
> I do remember the your original tests showing these to be slower.  Also, 
> the original tests had the Pasela with a low resistance, about the same as 
> the Grand Bois in it's size.
>
> Can you compare the resistance of a Compass tire to these, to allow one to 
> validate your claims??  I do not your claims, based on the casing 
> differences, but a little validation goes a long way.   Perhaps include the 
> resistance of a slower tire so one can see the Compass improvement, e.g.
> X = Compass
> Y = GB or Pasels
> Z = slower tire with a resistance of Y + (Y-X)
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[John Hawrylak]

Jan

I do remember the your original tests showing these to be slower.  Also, 
the original tests had the Pasela with a low resistance, about the same as 
the Grand Bois in it's size.

Can you compare the resistance of a Compass tire to these, to allow one to 
validate your claims??  I do not your claims, based on the casing 
differences, but a little validation goes a long way.   Perhaps include the 
resistance of a slower tire so one can see the Compass improvement, e.g.
X = Compass
Y = GB or Pasels
Z = slower tire with a resistance of Y + (Y-X)

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Steve Palincsar]

On 01/03/2018 06:04 PM, Jan Heine wrote:
t has been exciting to work with a tire maker who not only has the 
resources to develop great tires, but also has been willing to work 
closely with us to turn the results of our tests into actual tires we 
can ride. The rest of the tire industry is only slowly waking up to 
the fact that riders in the real world want and need wide tires that 
don't have sturdy 'touring' casings, but that offer the performance 
and comfort you can only get with a high-performance casing.


and are willing to pay for them, too

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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

P.S.: Tires like the Marathons and others mentioned previously serve a real 
need in the tire world, too. It's not that one tire is better than the 
other - it all depends on what you need in a tire. If you are riding half a 
mile to the train station, as many Germans do, a flat tire will have you 
miss the train. A Marathon will be a little slower and ride more harshly 
over the bumps, but you'll never notice that on your 5-minute ride. A 
Compass tire makes no sense in that scenario. Or if you plan a long ride on 
the shoulder of busy highways that are full of steel wires from exploded 
truck tires, you may want to trade speed and comfort for puncture 
protection.

That said, as we go with wider tires, the risk of flats is much-reduced. A 
42 mm tire at 40 psi simply rolls over a piece of glass that would puncture 
a 23 mm tire at 100 psi. And if you ride on the scenic backroads that see 
little travel, then you'll encounter far less debris, too.

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

We did test Marathons, Rolly-Polies, Maxy-Fasties and Nifty-Swifties. All 
these were among the slower tires we tested. That shouldn't come as a 
surprise – these tires weren't designed as performance tires, so we only 
tested them to see how much you'd gain by going to high-performance tires. 
The answer is 'a lot' - especially if you ride at lower speeds than pro 
racers, who are more limited by aerodynamics than the rest of us.

Hetres were designed based on the results of our first tire tests, so they 
performed quite well. We then developed our Compass tires together with the 
engineers at Panaracer (who make Compass tires to our exclusive 
specifications). We used everything we'd learned from the Hetres and other 
Grand Bois tires (also made by Panaracer), to take comfort, speed and grip 
to the next level. We bench-marked these against tires like the Vittoria 
Open CX Corsa. Our testing indicates that the goal was achieved.

It has been exciting to work with a tire maker who not only has the 
resources to develop great tires, but also has been willing to work closely 
with us to turn the results of our tests into actual tires we can ride. The 
rest of the tire industry is only slowly waking up to the fact that riders 
in the real world want and need wide tires that don't have sturdy 'touring' 
casings, but that offer the performance and comfort you can only get with a 
high-performance casing.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com

On Thursday, January 4, 2018 at 3:57:09 AM UTC+9, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> Did they test the Compass tires against Marathons. Rumplins, and Hetres 
> yet?

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Belopsky]

Hetres were the tires before Compass

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

Did they test the Compass tires against Marathons. Rumplins, and Hetres yet?

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Deacon Patrick]

Peter, I think you’ll find today’s blog a timely answer to your question...
https://janheine.wordpress.com/2018/01/03/12-myths-in-cycling-1-wider-tires-are-slower/

Further, you can get back issues by topic, including tires, here: 
https://www.compasscycle.com/shop/print/4-pack-bq-back-issues/ 

With abandon,
Patrick

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Peter Turskovitch]

I've often read on Jan Heine's blog that the BQ team has "proven" that big 
tires are just as fast. Where can I read these tests? I'm a subscriber to 
BQ but I've only read the last two editions. 



On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 5:38:54 PM UTC+1, Jan Heine wrote:
>
> It's true that René Herse's and Alex Singer's bikes went to narrower 700C 
> tires for their randonneur bikes. They didn't stop at 30-32 mm. By the 
> 1970s, their bikes were equipped with 25 or even 23 mm tires. This wasn't 
> necessarily because they thought these tires were faster – they were 
> following the general trend toward narrower tires.
>
> The wide 650B tires you see on French cyclotouring bikes from the 1930s 
> and 1940s bikes trace their origins to the insight of Velocio, the editor 
> of the magazine Le Cycliste. In the 1920s, he realized that supple, wide 
> tires roll as fast as narrow ones on smooth surfaces, and faster on rough 
> ones. His stories of riding far and fast on these big 'balloon' tires 
> captured the imagination of his readers. In the 1930s and 1940s, Velocio's 
> influence continued in the Concours de Machines (Technical Trials), where 
> the rules required wide tires. The Concours captured cyclists' 
> imaginations, and having a 'Concours Bike' was the dream of many. On the 
> rough post-war roads, wide tires also made sense.
>
> The last Concours was held in 1949. Cars and mopeds were becoming popular, 
> and in the downturn of the bike industry, It was hard to find the money and 
> initiative to organize another Concours. Without anybody promoting wide 
> tires, cyclotouring bikes started following racing bike practice, and many 
> switched to 700C wheels and narrow tires. 650B made a minor comeback after 
> Serge Félix rode a 650B Herse to third place in the 1955 Poly de Chanteloup 
> hillclimb race. One of our René Herse posters 
>  shows 
> him during that ride. He demonstrated once again that wider 650B tires 
> aren't slower even on smooth roads. But a single result wasn't enough to 
> turn the tide, and the '650B revival' was short-lived.
>
> And as demand dwindled, supple, wide tires became unavailable. Rene Herse 
> stuck with wider tires and 650B longer than most, but without any 650B 
> tires beyond heavy utility models, it didn't make sense to build 
> high-performance 650B bikes. In the 1960s, Wolber introduced their "Super 
> Randonneur" 650B tires so that the old bikes still out there could continue 
> rolling, and that led to many touring and camping bikes being built for 
> 650B again. But those tires were just 32 mm wide, reflecting the general 
> trend to narrower tires. By then, 700C bikes already used 25 mm tires. The 
> French Confrerie des 650 consists of riders who came of age during that 
> time, and that is why they champion the 650B x 32 mm tire size so ardently, 
> and are quite disappointed that the world has gone to 650B, but in much 
> wider widths than used by the bikes of their youth.
>
> Velocio's insights that wider tires can be as fast as narrow ones weren't 
> rediscovered until Bicycle Quarterly, and, shortly afterward, others like 
> the Cervelo pro team, started testing tire resistance with the rider on the 
> bike. Now, more than a decade later, it's well-established that wider tires 
> roll as fast as narrow ones, provided they use the same casing and 
> construction.
>
> However, performance isn't everything, and the feel of the bike can be 
> just as important, especially to a non-competitive rider. Narrow tires do 
> feel different, and Mike Kone has often said that he likes a 'connected' 
> feel to the road. A wider tires insulates you from the road surface, which 
> can be good for speed and comfort, but may not be what you want if you 
> enjoy a 'sports car' feel. I suspect that it's this feel that Mike really 
> is talking about when he writes that wide tires aren't as "fast and perky."
>
> At Compass Cycles, we respect all approaches, which is why we offer our 
> tires in a variety of widths and diameters. We can tell you which tire is 
> faster (or not), but we won't tell you which bike feel you should prefer. 
> There are many wonderful bikes out there. While my tires may be wider than 
> most, I equally enjoy my Firefly with its 'wide' 54 mm tires and my J. P. 
> Weigle with its 'narrow' 38s, and my other bikes with their 'in-between' 
> 42s.
>
> Jan Heine
> Founder
> Compass Cycles
> www.compasscycle.com 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[RichS]

Garth and Steve. Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Getting my day off to a 
nice start as I "smile and cherish all of now".

Best,
Richard 

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 4:34:59 PM UTC-5, Garth wrote:
>
> Thank you for that Steve  !   
>
> I am always amazed how "the time" is always "the present" ... it's "now". 
> It's always "now", the present, no matter what appears, no matter the 
> position of the sun, no matter the click-clock of the clock .  We are 
> inherently "present" no matter what or who or how or when or why. Even to 
> think of a "then", referring to "an-other now" called "the past, the 
> passed", it is thought NOW. the only now. But hey, "the past" seems but a 
> story of "yet another now" , and/or "how now came to be."  Yet, now doesn't 
> come or go, now is always present tense !  HaH !  So "the present tense" is 
> infinite, like an infinite variety of the same one "presence", perceived 
> infinitively. 
>
> So yeah  every moment is unique, held in a "Infinite Intelligence" for 
> lack of any other term at this moment, and I doubt that matters "now" ! Hah 
> !   Yeah ... this now, the now one  ahahahahaahahah !   Oh heck  I 
> can only laugh with it all .. and smile  and cherish all of now . 
>
> I know how this may sound  or not .but just as I don't choose the 
> way the sun rises and falls I never know what's gonna arise in 
> "thought", let alone anywhere else !   Just being honest . :-)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 3:10:05 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>>
>> *The Hōshi **family** has run the inn bearing their name in Japan’s 
>> Ishikawa Prefecture for 1,300 years. Forty six generations have accepted 
>> the profession of their ancestors, but that same weight of tradition keeps 
>> the **family** sharply focused on the present moment.*
>>
>> * Zengoro Hōshi refers to the concept Ichi-go ichi-e (一期一会) meaning "one 
>> time, one meeting", as his constant reminder to cherish each meeting with a 
>> customer, or friend, because no moment ever repeats. The term originated in 
>> the 16th Century with tea master Sen no Rikyū, and it's with a tea ceremony 
>> that all guests are first welcomed to the hotel (even before they are shown 
>> to their rooms).*
>>
>> * The Hōshi Ryokan was founded in 716 with the discovery of a hot 
>> springs. The garden is relatively new, though it was designed by a 16th 
>> century garden master  **https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QfgKPGCAw 
>> *
>> *-- https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=215191 
>> *
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Garth]

Thank you for that Steve  !   

I am always amazed how "the time" is always "the present" ... it's "now". 
It's always "now", the present, no matter what appears, no matter the 
position of the sun, no matter the click-clock of the clock .  We are 
inherently "present" no matter what or who or how or when or why. Even to 
think of a "then", referring to "an-other now" called "the past, the 
passed", it is thought NOW. the only now. But hey, "the past" seems but a 
story of "yet another now" , and/or "how now came to be."  Yet, now doesn't 
come or go, now is always present tense !  HaH !  So "the present tense" is 
infinite, like an infinite variety of the same one "presence", perceived 
infinitively. 

So yeah  every moment is unique, held in a "Infinite Intelligence" for 
lack of any other term at this moment, and I doubt that matters "now" ! Hah 
!   Yeah ... this now, the now one  ahahahahaahahah !   Oh heck  I 
can only laugh with it all .. and smile  and cherish all of now . 

I know how this may sound  or not .but just as I don't choose the 
way the sun rises and falls I never know what's gonna arise in 
"thought", let alone anywhere else !   Just being honest . :-)





On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 3:10:05 PM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote:
>
> *The Hōshi **family** has run the inn bearing their name in Japan’s 
> Ishikawa Prefecture for 1,300 years. Forty six generations have accepted 
> the profession of their ancestors, but that same weight of tradition keeps 
> the **family** sharply focused on the present moment.*
>
> * Zengoro Hōshi refers to the concept Ichi-go ichi-e (一期一会) meaning "one 
> time, one meeting", as his constant reminder to cherish each meeting with a 
> customer, or friend, because no moment ever repeats. The term originated in 
> the 16th Century with tea master Sen no Rikyū, and it's with a tea ceremony 
> that all guests are first welcomed to the hotel (even before they are shown 
> to their rooms).*
>
> * The Hōshi Ryokan was founded in 716 with the discovery of a hot springs. 
> The garden is relatively new, though it was designed by a 16th century 
> garden master  **https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QfgKPGCAw 
> *
> *-- https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=215191 
> *
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Steve Palincsar]

   /The Hōshi //family//has run the inn bearing their name in Japan’s
   Ishikawa Prefecture for 1,300 years. Forty six generations have
   accepted the profession of their ancestors, but that same weight of
   tradition keeps the //family//sharply focused on the present moment.//
   / /
   //Zengoro Hōshi refers to the concept Ichi-go ichi-e (一期一会) meaning
   "one time, one meeting", as his constant reminder to cherish each
   meeting with a customer, or friend, because no moment ever repeats.
   The term originated in the 16th Century with tea master Sen no
   Rikyū, and it's with a tea ceremony that all guests are first
   welcomed to the hotel (even before they are shown to their rooms).//
   / /
   //The Hōshi Ryokan was founded in 716 with the discovery of a hot
   springs. The garden is relatively new, though it was designed by a
   16th century garden master
   //https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j9QfgKPGCAw/

   /-- https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=215191/



On 12/21/2017 02:51 PM, Garth wrote:
 Because perception is infinite :)  Every one is unique. We may claim 
that we can repeat something exactly the same, but there is no fooling 
what can't be fooled. Life !


On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 2:09:17 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

Well, very interesting how some bikes feel faster than others
without there being a readily identifiable cause for this.

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Alexandria, Virginia
USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Garth]

 Because perception is infinite :)  Every one is unique. We may claim that 
we can repeat something exactly the same, but there is no fooling what 
can't be fooled. Life !

On Thursday, December 21, 2017 at 2:09:17 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Well, very interesting how some bikes feel faster than others without 
> there being a readily identifiable cause for this. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

Well, very interesting how some bikes feel faster than others without there
being a readily identifiable cause for this.

On Wed, Dec 20, 2017 at 9:16 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> @ Patrick:
>
> overall weight? - not sure. I think same. I'd have to measure. I think I
> did once and they were the same, have to double check. I think it was Sam:
> 29 Ram: 27, Bleriot: 27
> Wheel weight? - sameish (Rode GB 650b on Bleriot and Ram, Synergies 650b
> on Ram and Sam).
> Tires? - sameish (Rode 650b 42's on all).
> Loads? - same
> Position and fit? - same (53 Bleriot, 54Ram, 52Sam). All 41 Noodles and
> 6cm stems. Bar heights/reach same. All Flyer saddles, set up in KOPS. Reach
> same.SH same.
>
> The Ram buildset was swapped over  from my Sam.
> I noted (if true from what the bike sheets say from RR and RBW) that the
> rear triangle and ST, IIRC,  is a smidgeon thinner walled on the Ram than
> the Sam.
>
> I asked Grant why the Ram would feel easier to get on down the road. He
> said he didn't know. Speculated maybe the shorter stays, and one other
> thing, but I forgot what it was.
>
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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

@ Patrick:

overall weight? - not sure. I think same. I'd have to measure. I think I 
did once and they were the same, have to double check. I think it was Sam: 
29 Ram: 27, Bleriot: 27
Wheel weight? - sameish (Rode GB 650b on Bleriot and Ram, Synergies 650b on 
Ram and Sam).
Tires? - sameish (Rode 650b 42's on all).
Loads? - same
Position and fit? - same (53 Bleriot, 54Ram, 52Sam). All 41 Noodles and 6cm 
stems. Bar heights/reach same. All Flyer saddles, set up in KOPS. Reach 
same.SH same.

The Ram buildset was swapped over  from my Sam.
I noted (if true from what the bike sheets say from RR and RBW) that the 
rear triangle and ST, IIRC,  is a smidgeon thinner walled on the Ram than 
the Sam.

I asked Grant why the Ram would feel easier to get on down the road. He 
said he didn't know. Speculated maybe the shorter stays, and one other 
thing, but I forgot what it was.

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[EasyRider]

The only bike I'm sure has "planed" for me was a 1977 Raleigh Grand Prix, 
and that was about 10 years before I heard the term. I had built it up as a 
fixed gear and I was surprised how light it was, being hi-tensile steel. 
Alas, it was a tad long for me in the top tube, and the bottom bracket was 
very fussy, so I traded it a month later. I think the tubing diameter was 
the relevant metric. It used standard tubes and I was probably only 150lbs 
back then.

On Tuesday, December 19, 2017 at 3:57:50 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> What does the flexing actually feel like?
>
> I have ridden a Bleriot, Sam, and Rambouillet.
>
> When I am fit, they all feel fast.
> When I am not, sometimes the Sam and Bleriot felt like I could not get out 
> of my own way on hills.
> With the Rambouillet, I feel like the pedals are easier to turn. Like they 
> are cooperating. Even on hills, they are responsive to the stroke, even 
> when going plodding slow uphill. Just easier to turn the pedals. All almost 
> identical builds and fit setups.
>
> Also, I have ridden with people who rode 531 and asked them if they felt 
> planing and they said no.
>
> I think butting length also effects the planing.
> Also tire pressures/widths.
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

Lum: I can't say I've experienced planing either, but I'm curious what you
attribute the Ram's feeling of easier pedaling to? It's not setup; overall
weight? Wheel weight? Tires? Loads? Position and fit?

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 1:57 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> ...
> I have ridden a Bleriot, Sam, and Rambouillet. When I am fit, they all
> feel fast. When I am not, sometimes the Sam and Bleriot felt like I could
> not get out of my own way on hills.
> With the Rambouillet, I feel like the pedals are easier to turn. Like they
> are cooperating. Even on hills, they are responsive to the stroke, even
> when going plodding slow uphill. Just easier to turn the pedals. All almost
> identical builds and fit setups.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

Interesting again. I can't say that my 28 mm actual Elk Passes feel slower
than 22 mm actual Conti GPs (559 and 571 versions), or 571 Michelin Pro
Race 3s and 4s, or in fact the very nice 559 X1" and 22 mm actual
Specialized Turbo, when that was available; in fact, while feeling cushier
(and of course being a heckofalot better for dirt), they actually feel
faster, in the sense of making it seem easier to turn over a given gear at
a given rpm in given conditions. I think that the feeling of smoothness
also makes them feel faster (about 60 psi versus 80/90 f/r -- I'm 175 or
so). (IME, it's not vibration at all that makes skinny tires feel faster,
if in fact they do feel faster; just the opposite.)

If you were to post a conventional drive side profile view photo of the
Boulder, I would not complain.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 2:46 PM, M G  wrote:

> Eno eccentric for the boulder (i tried for a little while to use the magic
> combination, and it was too much of a hassle. The hub was a 'regular' Eno,
> and one can just replace the axle which is a great feature
>
> tires -
> i have found that i like 28 to 30 on the boulder (and on my most excellent
> Tom Ritchey) / that 32 - 33 = sluggish (and measurably slower).
> I'm 180 lbs.
> Likewise i like 'em a little smaller than the internet says re 650b as
> well; 38s vs 42s feel much faster.
> Ron
>
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:03:46 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> *My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it
>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
>> and speed and 'planing'*
>>
>> I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me
>> fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather
>> tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous
>> owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this),
>> but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just
>> felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand
>> Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I
>> was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.
>>
>> Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk
>> Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up
>> fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!
>>
>> Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other
>> such workaround?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys
>>> i ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if
>>> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i
>>> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done
>>> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) //
>>> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles
>>> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].
>>>
>>> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it
>>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
>>> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get
>>> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum
>>> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding
>>> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are
>>> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly
>>> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires,
>>> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect
>>> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.
>>> But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>>>
>>> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it
>>> now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the
>>> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable
>>> rocket.
>>>
>>> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:

 I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly
 paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending.
 I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years.
 When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding
 that bike more than most.
 It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
 My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and
 carries nothing but a small under seat bag.

 While the road bike feels “faster”.
 The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is
 never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom bre

Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

On Tue, Dec 19, 2017 at 1:57 PM, lum gim fong  wrote:

> What does the flexing actually feel like?
>
> I have ridden a Bleriot, Sam, and Rambouillet.
>
> When I am fit, they all feel fast.
> When I am not, sometimes the Sam and Bleriot felt like I could not get out
> of my own way on hills.
> With the Rambouillet, I feel like the pedals are easier to turn. Like they
> are cooperating. Even on hills, they are responsive to the stroke, even
> when going plodding slow uphill. Just easier to turn the pedals. All almost
> identical builds and fit setups.
>
> Also, I have ridden with people who rode 531 and asked them if they felt
> planing and they said no.
>
> I think butting length also effects the planing.
> Also tire pressures/widths.
>
>
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>



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**
**
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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[lum gim fong]

What does the flexing actually feel like?

I have ridden a Bleriot, Sam, and Rambouillet.

When I am fit, they all feel fast.
When I am not, sometimes the Sam and Bleriot felt like I could not get out 
of my own way on hills.
With the Rambouillet, I feel like the pedals are easier to turn. Like they 
are cooperating. Even on hills, they are responsive to the stroke, even 
when going plodding slow uphill. Just easier to turn the pedals. All almost 
identical builds and fit setups.

Also, I have ridden with people who rode 531 and asked them if they felt 
planing and they said no.

I think butting length also effects the planing.
Also tire pressures/widths.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Ty Smith]

I'm 210 lbs and just about every bike I get on seems to "plane" for me, and 
I think its because my weight makes nearly every bike flex for me in the 
right way. 

Ty

On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 3:13:06 PM UTC-8, M G wrote:
>
> Eno eccentric for the boulder (i tried for a little while to use the magic 
> combination, and it was too much of a hassle. The hub was a 'regular' Eno, 
> and one can just replace the axle which is a great feature
>
> tires - 
> i have found that i like 28 to 30 on the boulder (and on my most excellent 
> Tom Ritchey) / that 32 - 33 = sluggish (and measurably slower). 
> I'm 180 lbs.  
> Likewise i like 'em a little smaller than the internet says re 650b as 
> well; 38s vs 42s feel much faster.
> Ron
>
>
> On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:03:46 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> *My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it 
>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
>> and speed and 'planing'*
>>
>> I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me 
>> fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather 
>> tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous 
>> owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this), 
>> but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just 
>> felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand 
>> Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I 
>> was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.
>>
>> Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk 
>> Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up 
>> fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!
>>
>> Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other 
>> such workaround?
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G  wrote:
>>
>>> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys 
>>> i ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if 
>>> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i 
>>> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done 
>>> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // 
>>> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles 
>>> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   
>>>
>>> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it 
>>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
>>> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get 
>>> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum 
>>> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding 
>>> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are 
>>> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly 
>>> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, 
>>> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 
>>> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.  
>>> But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>>>
>>> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it 
>>> now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the 
>>> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable 
>>> rocket. 
>>>
>>> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:

 I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly 
 paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending. 
 I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years. 
 When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding 
 that bike more than most. 
 It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc... 
 My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and 
 carries nothing but a small under seat bag. 

 While the road bike feels “faster”. 
 The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is 
 never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break. 
 Neither is ever faster than the other. 

 Ray 
 Vallejo CA
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send 
>>> an email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
>>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com.
>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[M G]

Eno eccentric for the boulder (i tried for a little while to use the magic 
combination, and it was too much of a hassle. The hub was a 'regular' Eno, 
and one can just replace the axle which is a great feature

tires - 
i have found that i like 28 to 30 on the boulder (and on my most excellent 
Tom Ritchey) / that 32 - 33 = sluggish (and measurably slower). 
I'm 180 lbs.  
Likewise i like 'em a little smaller than the internet says re 650b as 
well; 38s vs 42s feel much faster.
Ron


On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 1:03:46 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> *My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it 
> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
> and speed and 'planing'*
>
> I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me 
> fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather 
> tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous 
> owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this), 
> but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just 
> felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand 
> Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I 
> was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.
>
> Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk 
> Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up 
> fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!
>
> Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other 
> such workaround?
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G > 
> wrote:
>
>> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i 
>> ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if 
>> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i 
>> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done 
>> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // 
>> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles 
>> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   
>>
>> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it 
>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
>> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get 
>> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum 
>> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding 
>> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are 
>> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly 
>> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, 
>> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 
>> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.  
>> But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>>
>> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it 
>> now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the 
>> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable 
>> rocket. 
>>
>> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly 
>>> paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending. 
>>> I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years. 
>>> When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding 
>>> that bike more than most. 
>>> It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc... 
>>> My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and 
>>> carries nothing but a small under seat bag. 
>>>
>>> While the road bike feels “faster”. 
>>> The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is 
>>> never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break. 
>>> Neither is ever faster than the other. 
>>>
>>> Ray 
>>> Vallejo CA
>>
>> -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com .
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com 
>> .
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

BTW, the Herse had my optimum sizing: 60 and 56.5 c-c, with level top tube
and fistful and a half of seapost exposed to the air. If I have another
custom made, it will have a 60 c-c st and undersquare tt.

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 11:03 AM, Patrick Moore  wrote:

> *My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it
> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
> and speed and 'planing'*
>
> I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me
> fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather
> tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous
> owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this),
> but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just
> felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand
> Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I
> was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.
>
> Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk
> Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up
> fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!
>
> Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other
> such workaround?
>
> On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G  wrote:
>
>> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i
>> ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if
>> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i
>> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done
>> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) //
>> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles
>> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].
>>
>> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it
>> or ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
>> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get
>> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum
>> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding
>> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are
>> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly
>> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires,
>> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect
>> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.
>> But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>>
>> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it
>> now in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the
>> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable
>> rocket.
>>
>> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:
>>>
>>> I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly
>>> paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending.
>>> I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years.
>>> When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding
>>> that bike more than most.
>>> It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
>>> My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and
>>> carries nothing but a small under seat bag.
>>>
>>> While the road bike feels “faster”.
>>> The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is
>>> never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break.
>>> Neither is ever faster than the other.
>>>
>>> Ray
>>> Vallejo CA
>>
>> --
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an
>> email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch.
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
>
> --
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
> **
> **
> *Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*
>



-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
Patrick Moore
Al

Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

*My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or
ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
and speed and 'planing'*

I have suspected this for quite a while, based on what bikes feel to me
fastest and "easiest to maintain speed on". Some of these have been rather
tanklike; that 1958 Herse I've talked about was rejected by its 2 previous
owners for having too stout tubing (I think I remember them saying this),
but, heavy as it was, and even in fact with rather mediocre tires, it just
felt faster than lighter, thinner tubed bikes (1973 Motobecane Grand
Record, eg) that I've ridden extensively. "Felt faster" in the sense that I
was encouraged when riding it to ride 1 rear cog tooth smaller.

Compass ~28 mm tires for light gravel and firmer dirt -- wonderful! (Elk
Pass.) And of course, a good (= optimum fit and "feel") road bike set up
fixed with the best tires you can find: priceless!

Curious: Does the Boulder have horizontals, or do you use an ENO or other
such workaround?

On Mon, Dec 18, 2017 at 9:39 AM, M G  wrote:

> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i
> ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if
> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i
> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done
> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) //
> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles
> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].
>
> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or
> ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort
> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get
> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum
> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding
> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are
> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly
> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires,
> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect
> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey.
> But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>
> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it now
> in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the
> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable
> rocket.
>
> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:
>>
>> I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly
>> paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending.
>> I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years.
>> When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that
>> bike more than most.
>> It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
>> My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and
>> carries nothing but a small under seat bag.
>>
>> While the road bike feels “faster”.
>> The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is
>> never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break.
>> Neither is ever faster than the other.
>>
>> Ray
>> Vallejo CA
>
> --
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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[M G]

Oh, and re speed, the Boulder FEELS faster, it IS faster climbing wise, 
again EXCEPT when i can get the Kog to flex
And as part of my 'let me compare thee to a BQ bicycle' i have the Kog and 
the boulder set up EXACTLY the same, and they are almost EXACTLY the same 
geometry.
Compared them to each other multiple times, multiple courses.
[tires as close to comparable as i could get, both 42s and 38s on the 650b, 
and 30s and 32s on the 700c / light weights both of them]
The Kog feels better on dirt, for sure, feels better descending.  In the 
end either 1 would make a fine "if i only had 1 bike"
Ron in Western Ma


On Monday, December 18, 2017 at 11:45:33 AM UTC-5, M G wrote:
>
> I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i 
> ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if 
> there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i 
> will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done 
> for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // 
> that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles 
> essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   
>
> My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or 
> ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
> and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get 
> onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum 
> shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding 
> uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are 
> great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly 
> dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, 
> compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 
> 30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey. 
>  But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.
>
> Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it now 
> in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the 
> challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable 
> rocket. 
>
> On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:
>>
>> I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly 
>> paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending. 
>> I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years. 
>> When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that 
>> bike more than most. 
>> It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc... 
>> My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and 
>> carries nothing but a small under seat bag. 
>>
>> While the road bike feels “faster”. 
>> The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is 
>> never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break. 
>> Neither is ever faster than the other. 
>>
>> Ray 
>> Vallejo CA
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[M G]

I have a Boulder 700c rando w light tubing, and a Kog P/R; and the guys i 
ride with have Rawland 650b bikes // i've spent YEARS trying to decide if 
there is a difference, switching off bikes on the same route(s) etc.  And i 
will say that I greatly appreciate Jan's POV, and see all that he has done 
for equipment (and of COURSE all the great work Grant P & Riv has done) // 
that in the end it's incredibly subjective [remember when all BQ articles 
essentially ended with, 'but still my 1962 Alex Singer did it better'].   

My personal experience is that HOW the bike fits you, do you feel IN it or 
ON it, what is your fitness level, etc, is the biggest factor in comfort 
and speed and 'planing' [when I've spent a winter doing squats, I can get 
onto the P/R and it will 'plane' uphill for me; if i'm not in optimum 
shape, that's the only time i get the 'non-planing deadleg' ie riding 
uphill, or sprinting.  The Boulder is a GREAT bike; the Rawland 650bs are 
great; my Kog is an excellent all rounder; I ride the boulder on gnarly 
dirt all the time and it hasn't snapped in 1/2 yet (it's on 32 mm tires, 
compass tires, but i really prefer 27mm Challenge tires which are in effect 
30mm).  And the bike i like the most [in theory], is my 1980 Tom Ritchey. 
 But in practice, the one i'm ON is the one i like the most.

Heresy, but i have the Boulder set up as a fixed gear because i use it now 
in a flat city [Boston] instead of in my hilly hometown, and with the 
challenge tires 30mm tires, it's quantifiably a rocket.  A comfortable 
rocket. 

On Saturday, December 16, 2017 at 2:17:41 PM UTC-5, Ray Varella wrote:
>
> I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly 
> paved surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending. 
> I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years. 
> When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that 
> bike more than most. 
> It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc... 
> My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and 
> carries nothing but a small under seat bag. 
>
> While the road bike feels “faster”. 
> The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is 
> never more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break. 
> Neither is ever faster than the other. 
>
> Ray 
> Vallejo CA

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Ray Varella]

I have a couple different 50 mile rides I do, they are both on mostly paved 
surfaces, both have at least 8-10 miles of climbing and descending. 
I’ve done both these rides for close to 25 years. 
When I got my first 650B bike (in the early 2000s), I started riding that bike 
more than most. 
It fits 38-42mm tires, has fenders,lighting, bag, racks etc...
My zippy road bike has been shod with700 28-35C tires, it is lean and carries 
nothing but a small under seat bag. 

While the road bike feels “faster”. 
The time it takes to complete either of these loops on either bike is never 
more than the time it takes to make a quick bathroom break. 
Neither is ever faster than the other. 

Ray
Vallejo CA

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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

It's true that René Herse's and Alex Singer's bikes went to narrower 700C 
tires for their randonneur bikes. They didn't stop at 30-32 mm. By the 
1970s, their bikes were equipped with 25 or even 23 mm tires. This wasn't 
necessarily because they thought these tires were faster – they were 
following the general trend toward narrower tires.

The wide 650B tires you see on French cyclotouring bikes from the 1930s and 
1940s bikes trace their origins to the insight of Velocio, the editor of 
the magazine Le Cycliste. In the 1920s, he realized that supple, wide tires 
roll as fast as narrow ones on smooth surfaces, and faster on rough ones. 
His stories of riding far and fast on these big 'balloon' tires captured 
the imagination of his readers. In the 1930s and 1940s, Velocio's influence 
continued in the Concours de Machines (Technical Trials), where the rules 
required wide tires. The Concours captured cyclists' imaginations, and 
having a 'Concours Bike' was the dream of many. On the rough post-war 
roads, wide tires also made sense.

The last Concours was held in 1949. Cars and mopeds were becoming popular, 
and in the downturn of the bike industry, It was hard to find the money and 
initiative to organize another Concours. Without anybody promoting wide 
tires, cyclotouring bikes started following racing bike practice, and many 
switched to 700C wheels and narrow tires. 650B made a minor comeback after 
Serge Félix rode a 650B Herse to third place in the 1955 Poly de Chanteloup 
hillclimb race. One of our René Herse posters 
 shows 
him during that ride. He demonstrated once again that wider 650B tires 
aren't slower even on smooth roads. But a single result wasn't enough to 
turn the tide, and the '650B revival' was short-lived.

And as demand dwindled, supple, wide tires became unavailable. Rene Herse 
stuck with wider tires and 650B longer than most, but without any 650B 
tires beyond heavy utility models, it didn't make sense to build 
high-performance 650B bikes. In the 1960s, Wolber introduced their "Super 
Randonneur" 650B tires so that the old bikes still out there could continue 
rolling, and that led to many touring and camping bikes being built for 
650B again. But those tires were just 32 mm wide, reflecting the general 
trend to narrower tires. By then, 700C bikes already used 25 mm tires. The 
French Confrerie des 650 consists of riders who came of age during that 
time, and that is why they champion the 650B x 32 mm tire size so ardently, 
and are quite disappointed that the world has gone to 650B, but in much 
wider widths than used by the bikes of their youth.

Velocio's insights that wider tires can be as fast as narrow ones weren't 
rediscovered until Bicycle Quarterly, and, shortly afterward, others like 
the Cervelo pro team, started testing tire resistance with the rider on the 
bike. Now, more than a decade later, it's well-established that wider tires 
roll as fast as narrow ones, provided they use the same casing and 
construction.

However, performance isn't everything, and the feel of the bike can be just 
as important, especially to a non-competitive rider. Narrow tires do feel 
different, and Mike Kone has often said that he likes a 'connected' feel to 
the road. A wider tires insulates you from the road surface, which can be 
good for speed and comfort, but may not be what you want if you enjoy a 
'sports car' feel. I suspect that it's this feel that Mike really is 
talking about when he writes that wide tires aren't as "fast and perky."

At Compass Cycles, we respect all approaches, which is why we offer our 
tires in a variety of widths and diameters. We can tell you which tire is 
faster (or not), but we won't tell you which bike feel you should prefer. 
There are many wonderful bikes out there. While my tires may be wider than 
most, I equally enjoy my Firefly with its 'wide' 54 mm tires and my J. P. 
Weigle with its 'narrow' 38s, and my other bikes with their 'in-between' 
42s.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Jan Heine]

Mike Kone's observations about René Herse's and Alex Singer's bikes are 
only partially correct. Yes, they did go to narrower 700C tires for their 
randonneur bikes, but they didn't stop at 30-32 mm. By the 1970s, their 
bikes were equipped with 25 or even 23 mm tires. They were following the 
general trend toward narrower tires.

The wide 650B tires you see on French cyclotouring bikes from the 1930s and 
1940s bikes trace their origins to the insight of Velocio, the editor of 
the magazine Le Cycliste. In the 1920s, he realized that supple, wide tires 
roll as fast as narrow ones on smooth surfaces, and faster on rough ones. 
His stories of riding far and fast on these big 'balloon' tires captured 
the imagination of his readers. In the 1930s and 1940s, Velocio's influence 
continued in the Concours de Machines (Technical Trials), where the rules 
required wide tires. The Concours captured cyclists' imaginations, and 
having a 'Concours Bike' was the dream of many. On the rough post-war 
roads, wide tires also made sense.

The last Concours was held in 1949. Cars and mopeds were becoming popular, 
and in the downturn of the bike industry, It was hard to find the money and 
initiative to organize another Concours. Without anybody promoting wide 
tires, cyclotouring bikes started following racing bike practice, and many 
switched to 700C wheels and narrow tires. 650B made a minor comeback after 
Serge Félix rode a 650B Herse to third place in the 1955 Poly de Chanteloup 
hillclimb race. One of our René Herse posters 
 shows 
him during that ride. He demonstrated once again that wider 650B tires 
aren't slower even on smooth roads. But a single result wasn't enough to 
turn the tide, and the '650B revival' was short-lived.

And as demand dwindled, supple, wide tires became unavailable. Rene Herse 
stuck with wider tires and 650B longer than most, but without any 650B 
tires beyond heavy utility models, it didn't make sense to build 
high-performance 650B bikes. In the 1960s, Wolber introduced their "Super 
Randonneur" 650B tires so that the old bikes still out there could continue 
rolling, and that led to many touring and camping bikes being built for 
650B again. But those tires were just 32 mm wide, reflecting the general 
trend to narrower tires. By then, 700C bikes already used 25 mm tires. The 
French Confrerie des 650 consists of riders who came of age during that 
time, and that is why they champion the 650B x 32 mm tire size so ardently, 
and are quite disappointed that the world has gone to 650B, but in much 
wider widths than used by the bikes of their youth.

Velocio's insights that wider tires can be as fast as narrow ones weren't 
rediscovered until Bicycle Quarterly, and, shortly afterward, others like 
the Cervelo pro team, started testing tire resistance with the rider on the 
bike. Now, more than a decade later, it's well-established that wider tires 
roll as fast as narrow ones, provided they use the same casing and 
construction.

However, performance isn't everything, and the feel of the bike can be just 
as important, especially to a non-competitive rider. Narrow tires do feel 
different, and Mike Kone has often said that he likes a 'connected' feel to 
the road. A wider tires insulates you from the road surface, which can be 
good for speed and comfort, but may not be what you want if you enjoy a 
'sports car' feel. I suspect that it's this feel that Mike really is 
talking about when he writes that wide tires aren't as "fast and perky."

At Compass Cycles, we respect all approaches, which is why we offer our 
tires in a variety of widths and diameters. We can tell you which tire is 
faster (or not), but we won't tell you which bike feel you should prefer. 
There are many wonderful bikes out there. While my tires may be wider than 
most, I equally enjoy my Firefly with its 'wide' 54 mm tires and my J. P. 
Weigle with its 'narrow' 38s, and my other bikes with their 'in-between' 
42s.

Jan Heine
Founder
Compass Cycles
www.compasscycle.com 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

['Tim' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I read Mike's thoughts on the link. Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems as if he 
has thrown down the gauntlet for Jan. IIRC, Jan claims that you don't give up 
speed with 650Bx42. He also seems to be throwing some shade (as the kids say 
these days) at the Kasei fork blades. Perhaps that is because there is a 
somewhat limited (hopefully still growing) market for rando bikes and it's all 
about marketing to stay in business. But it seems to me that it is a direct 
challenge to what Jan has been saying. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Belopsky]

Hey John, I appreciate the answer, though it sounds like you were meaning 
to answer Lum's as mine was more a statement/answer ;)

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[John Hawrylak]

Igor, I believe Mike Kone's answer is "yes".

I posted the link to Boulder Bicycles in response to the thread about 
"optimum" tire widths for various rim diameters.

Boulder designed and sells a 650B low trial and a 700C low trial (both 
planning), mainly for general riding and brevets,  Kone put his 
'philosophy" on the page, apparently to answer questions he seems to be 
getting in inquires.

I thought it was concise & relevant, since Boulder appears to champion the 
low trail, light tubing before others and with no less gusto.  I thought 
others may have not seen it.

John Hawrylak
Woodstown NJ

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 11:41:20 PM UTC-5, Belopsky wrote:

> What exactly are you asking? 700c is faster.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Belopsky]

What exactly are you asking? 700c is faster.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Patrick Moore]

Per the other thread:
http://boulderbicycle.bike/Boulder-Bicycle-Rando-Overview-and-Pricing.html

On Fri, Dec 15, 2017 at 8:42 PM, Brian Campbell 
wrote:

> Is there a link for some context?
>
>
> On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 7:05:55 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>>
>> per Boulder Bikes.
>>
>> Anyone know the story about this?
>>
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[RBW] Re: Rene Herse "went to go-fast 700c rando machines many years ago for a good reason"?

[Brian Campbell]

Is there a link for some context?

On Friday, December 15, 2017 at 7:05:55 PM UTC-5, lum gim fong wrote:
>
> per Boulder Bikes.
>
> Anyone know the story about this?
>

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