[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On May 5, 3:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. Not here. I've read that article several times in the past. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Shallow seat tube angles may somewhat reduce the effective top tube length--but they certainly don't neutralize the long top tubes found on the larger Rivendell bikes. For every one degree shallower(=smaller numerically) the seat tube angle is on a Rivendell frame compared to someone's current bike, the Rivendell frame will reduce the effective top tube length by approximately 1 cm. For instance, if someone has a road bike that has a 73 degree seat tube angle, a Rivendell frame with a 72 degree seat tube angle will reduce the effective top tube length by 1 cm. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Well, intuitively that doesn't seem like it would make a very big difference over the short distances involved when raising a stem. And my calculations verify that the longer arm effect is trivial. For example, if I buy an A. Homer Hilsen and I raise my bars 4 cm higher than on my current bike in order to get the bars even with the top of the saddle, how will my reach to the bars be affected? There are two effects: a) Raising the stem height will bring the bars closer to me by some horizontal distance. By how much? With a 72.5 degree head tube on the Hilsen, if I raise the stem 4 cm the bars will get 1.20 cm closer to me. However if I buy a set of Nitto Noodle handlebars, they have 1 cm more reach than every road bar listed at Colorado Cyclist (including the bars on my road bike). So raising the stem height in conjunction with using Nitto Noodle bars on the Hilsen means the bars will only get .20 cm closer to me. In addition, if I just raise the bars 4 cm on my current road bike which has a 73.5 cm head tube angle, the bars will get 1.14 cm closer to me. The Hilsen can only do .06 cm better. And with the Nitto Noodle bars on the Hilsen adding 1 cm of reach, the bars on the Hilsen will actually be .94 cm further away from me than if I had just raised the bars on my road bike. That is not the direction I want to go in. b) Rivendell reader #41 points out that as the bars get higher your arms get longer (effectively). But by how much? If you wear a size 44 coat (longish arms), and you raise the bars 4cm, my calculations show that your arms will effectively get longer by .06 cm. If you have shorter arms, say size 22 coat (impossibly stubby arms), you can double that--your arms will effectively get longer by .13 cm. A 67 cm A. Homer Hilsen has a 65 cm effective top tube. My current road bike has a 62 cm horizontal top tube. I would like to try a shorter reach and a more upright position to see if that will cure the lower back and shoulder/neck fatigue I suffer on long rides. How am I supposed to neutralize the 65 cm top tube on the A. Homer Hilsen? I don't understand how any of the things you mentioned accomplishes that. Ideally, I would like to ride a frame with only a fistful of seatpost showing and the bars even with the top of the saddle. I think when only a fistful of seatpost is showing that indicates an expanded frame or a frame designed with an upright position in mind. According to my opinion, when a high rise stem is needed to get the bars even with the top of the saddle, that is an indication that the frame is sized just like every other road bike sold today. Thanks for reading, happy -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
Whoops. It looks like the top of my post got bungled. Here is what it should look like: On May 5, 3:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, Not here. I've read that article several times in the past. Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Shallow seat tube angles may somewhat reduce the effective top tube length--but they certainly don't neutralize the long top tubes found on Rivendell bikes. For every one degree shallower(=smaller numerically) the seat tube angle is on a Rivendell frame compared to someone's current bike, the Rivendell frame will reduce the effective top tube length by approximately 1 cm. For instance, if someone has a road bike that has a 73 degree seat tube angle, a Rivendell frame with a 72 degree seat tube angle will reduce the effective top tube length by 1 cm. ... ... ... -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
For 15 years I have manfully resisted the don't worry about tt, st angle and bar height compensate message from Grant. I asked for a 56-57 cm c-c tt on my customs and set them up with 8 cm stems and bars 4-5 cm below saddle; very, very nice. Then I got, seriatim, a medium (17!!) Monocog 29er with a, what, 24 c-c tt and, a couple of years later, just a couple of months ago, a 56 cm Sam Hill, with (gad!) a 59 cm tt and (gad!) a 10 cm stem. I simply raised the bars. On the Monocog they are a good 2-3 cm above the saddle; on the SH they are about 1 cm above the saddle. Result? Very nice, and on those two bikes I can ride in the hooks almost indefinitely, while with the other Rivs and other bikes (8 cm stems, bars 5 cm below saddle) the hooks are wonderful for 5 miles and tolerable for 10 miles (at my usual 25 mph cruising speed). Conclusion? For bikes on which I want higher bars -- off road, Monocog; touring, SH -- long tt and high bars are just fine. For fixed gear, urban, short (30 miles or less) rides, which makes up most of my riding, and the headwinds we have in high desert, no tree Albuquerque (the horizon is always 80 miles away), I'd insist on a shorter tt. YM may, will, nay, ineluctibly must vary. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
The point of my post (point? point? we don't need no stinking point!) is that experimentum trumps theoria every time. On Sat, May 8, 2010 at 1:54 PM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: For 15 years I have manfully resisted the don't worry about tt, st angle and bar height compensate message from Grant. I asked for a 56-57 cm c-c tt on my customs and set them up with 8 cm stems and bars 4-5 cm below saddle; very, very nice. Then I got, seriatim, a medium (17!!) Monocog 29er with a, what, 24 c-c tt and, a couple of years later, just a couple of months ago, a 56 cm Sam Hill, with (gad!) a 59 cm tt and (gad!) a 10 cm stem. I simply raised the bars. On the Monocog they are a good 2-3 cm above the saddle; on the SH they are about 1 cm above the saddle. Result? Very nice, and on those two bikes I can ride in the hooks almost indefinitely, while with the other Rivs and other bikes (8 cm stems, bars 5 cm below saddle) the hooks are wonderful for 5 miles and tolerable for 10 miles (at my usual 25 mph cruising speed). Conclusion? For bikes on which I want higher bars -- off road, Monocog; touring, SH -- long tt and high bars are just fine. For fixed gear, urban, short (30 miles or less) rides, which makes up most of my riding, and the headwinds we have in high desert, no tree Albuquerque (the horizon is always 80 miles away), I'd insist on a shorter tt. YM may, will, nay, ineluctibly must vary. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
on 5/5/10 7:08 PM, JoelMatthews at joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a more comfortable upright riding. I guess one can put race slicks on a Chevy Malibu if that is ones preferred tire, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a Porsche? I'm not sure if that's as appropriate an example. For myself, I've raised my bars as I've switched to Rivendell bikes, but neither of them are above the saddle at this point. I think that puts me as a bit of an outlier. ;^) For a goodly number of folks who wanted to ride a road bike in years past, they were told that they'd get used to the bars being low. That running the bars below the saddle was the way it was. Maybe 20 years ago, running the saddle and bars at the same height was not common on a road bike. It is one of the reasons that mountain bikes caught on - suddenly people could use a comfortable position to ride. It took a darned long time for that to ease into the popular acceptance on road bikes. I will say flat out that the Rivendell bikes I have (QB and Hilsen) handle better than any other road (or cross) bike I've owned. There's no drawback to dropping the bars, if that is what you are used to or comfortable doing. The Rivendell designs allow a pretty amazing range of positions. Maybe that's the difference - it strikes me that GP designs a bike that allows for comfortable upright position - whether that's nearly upright, 45 degrees or flat backed. - J -- Jim Edgar cyclofi...@earthlink.net Cyclofiend Bicycle Photo Galleries - http://www.cyclofiend.com Current Classics - Cross Bikes Singlespeed - Working Bikes Gallery updates now appear here - http://cyclofiend.blogspot.com I thought the idea was to waste the rest of our lives together.. -- Cyril, Breaking Away -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
But again, it's just silly to think that Rivendells don't work well with drop bars and even lowish drop bars, just as it is silly to imply that lowish bars are only for racing. Perhaps before calling me silly, you may have had the sense to look at the original post and figure out my point. The OP says he cannot get bars low enough on a Riv. You say Riv can accommodate many bar positions, including lower positions. Given this fact we both appear to agree upon, I quite sensibly assumed the OP wants his bars somewhere down in the vicinity one sees on track bikes. A position which I think people can sensibly agree is meant for racing and for which Rivendell bikes are not designed. What did we jump back to February and I missed it? On May 5, 11:14 pm, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a more comfortable upright riding. I guess one can put race slicks on a Chevy Malibu if that is ones preferred tire, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a Porsche? But again, it's just silly to think that Rivendells don't work well with drop bars and even lowish drop bars, just as it is silly to imply that lowish bars are only for racing. Low bars work fine with Rivs, at least the four I've owned do. What do low bars (by Grant's massively high standards) have to do with racing? Nothing, as far as I can tell; some people like bars even with or lower than the saddle because it feels more comfortable; end of story. Of course, there is low and low. I wouldn't buy a Riv with sloping tt and extended ht in order to lower my bars six inches below saddle, but a modest 2 is perfectly fine and in no way racing. And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means of accommodating a weird build. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
My Atlantis' primary mission is touring, and it's equipped with drop bars, set about at seat height. I like drops for the variety of hand positions and ability to sit fairly upright when on the tops as well as getting low when bucking a headwind. The relationship of seat- pedals-h'bars was based on my previous bike but of course has been adjusted over time (age will do that to you). The 58 61 Atlantis overlap my PBH so I went 58, knowing I could make it bigger easier than smaller. Only minor adjustment of stem seat post height were needed to get it comfy. When I'm on the bike all day, every day on a tour, it's important to be able to change position, sit up, etc. to keep comfortable. Of course, stopping for coffee photos helps a lot too. Occassionally I think about a flat bar for ease of packing shipping the bike, but am reluctant to give up the positioning variety of drops. Judging by the variety of set-ups on cyclofiend's site, Rivs are pretty adaptable, with about any bar you can name being used by someone. dougP On May 6, 5:57 am, Frederick, Steve frede...@mail.lib.msu.edu wrote: Hi Grant--thanks for jumping in. I can confirm your statements--I have three Rivs, a Heron road, a Rambouillet and a Saluki and the seat tube angles and top tube lengths vary but they all fit the same (very well) with drops. Same bars (Noodles) and the stem extensions are within a cm of each other... Steve -Original Message- From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [mailto:rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com]on Behalf Of Grant Petersen Sent: Wednesday, May 05, 2010 5:54 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: [RBW] Riv frames work great with drop bars It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
I suppose one person's impractical race standards are another's comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too high. You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. But in coming to that discovery I've had to give up one of the long-top-tube neutralizing variables in the process. Hence my question: if someone prefers lower bars, should they size down with respect to what ordinarily be recommended? On May 5, 3:38 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
In my experience, don't fear the long top tubes on Rivendells. I was a bit apprehensive (at 5'9+) about going from a 54-55 standard road bike to a 57 Bleriot and 58 Saluki. They fit great and I didn't have the bars all that high. Big bikes are comfy. Ryan On May 5, 5:08 pm, Bill Connell bconn...@gmail.com wrote: I think you need to pay attention to both seat and top tube when shopping frames. There's no one right answer, it depends greatly on how the bike will be ridden and the intended bars. One of the main benefits of the typical Rivendell fit is the typically higher bars, but you don't want/need them higher than the saddle, the next size down is certainly a valid choice. On Wednesday, May 5, 2010, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose one person's impractical race standards are another's comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too high. You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. But in coming to that discovery I've had to give up one of the long-top-tube neutralizing variables in the process. Hence my question: if someone prefers lower bars, should they size down with respect to what ordinarily be recommended? On May 5, 3:38 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-Hidequoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubsFor more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Bill Connell St. Paul, MN -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a more comfortable upright riding. I guess one can put race slicks on a Chevy Malibu if that is ones preferred tire, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a Porsche? On May 5, 5:59 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose one person's impractical race standards are another's comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too high. You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. But in coming to that discovery I've had to give up one of the long-top-tube neutralizing variables in the process. Hence my question: if someone prefers lower bars, should they size down with respect to what ordinarily be recommended? On May 5, 3:38 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-Hidequoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to
[RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
Perhaps... the PBH measurement emphasis is too strong? I've learned over the years of hip and other injuries that top tube length and seat tube angle are the most important bike dimensions to consider 1st. PBH only tells you if you can straddle the top tube and how much seat post will show. Of course seatpost setback and stem length/height and even seat rail length need to be considered as well. The compact frame phenomenon has as it's only redeeming quality the shift to top tube length as the key indicator of bike fit. ~Mike~ On May 5, 7:08 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a more comfortable upright riding. I guess one can put race slicks on a Chevy Malibu if that is ones preferred tire, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a Porsche? On May 5, 5:59 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: I suppose one person's impractical race standards are another's comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too high. You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. But in coming to that discovery I've had to give up one of the long-top-tube neutralizing variables in the process. Hence my question: if someone prefers lower bars, should they size down with respect to what ordinarily be recommended? On May 5, 3:38 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
That is what I did, as well as using shortish stems -- 8 cm. The bikes fit and feel and handle perfectly. The new Sam Hill is a 56 with a 59 tt and came with a 10 cm stem; I simply kept the bars high -- about 1/2 inch above saddle versus 2 below for the others -- tho' considerably lower than they had been as originally set up. With the longer reach (and the wider bars; I use 42s on my other bikes) the SH feels quite nice. I think I'd prefer to swap out the 46 cm Noodles for a 44 cm 185 if I had the chance since the Noodles do feel a bit wide; anyone care to trade? But I can ride in the drops longer than on my other bikes -- 20 miles instead of 10 -- though the hooks feel a bit high and I feel less powerful; But I plan to use it for touring, so that is alright. On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 4:59 PM, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.comwrote: I suppose one person's impractical race standards are another's comfort zone. I tried the high-bars approach and didn't care for it. I felt like I was driving a bus and that my center of gravity was too high. You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. But in coming to that discovery I've had to give up one of the long-top-tube neutralizing variables in the process. Hence my question: if someone prefers lower bars, should they size down with respect to what ordinarily be recommended? On May 5, 3:38 pm, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: Roadeo excepted, isn't the general philosophy behind Riv design to stay away from impractical race standards? On May 5, 5:32 pm, Aaron Thomas aaron.a.tho...@gmail.com wrote: All of this is true, but it seems to depend upon high bars to help with the neutralizing. If someone prefers a low bars setup, one of the neutralizing elements in Riv's schema does not come into play. So what should someone do in such a scenario, assuming they aren't willing to adopt a higher bar position? Should they purchase a smaller frame than would ordinarily be recommended for their given PBH? Aaron On May 5, 2:53 pm, Grant Petersen gr...@rivbike.com wrote: It seems to me that because of the long top tubes most of Rivendells frames are not designed for drop bars. With the long top tubes you need bars that come back towards you to provide a comfortable reach. UnSo! Terribly, terrifically unso. The Top Tube Ruse in RR--40/ 41? talked all about that, but I realize people come and go and land late and may skip over or miss, but basically, it's like this. Forgive lack of detail in these explanations: Shallow seat tubes neutralize long top tubes. We have shallow seat tubes. Higher bars super-'eutralize long top tubes. We're the Cosmos champs in that cat. As bars get higher, your arms become more horizontal, and that makes them longer (effectively, not literally). Tall quill stems always help, but with our bikes--as much as I likem we gottem, they're less necessary than they are with a '73 Colnago, or '84 Centurion Ironman, etc. I cannot image more drop-bar friendly bikes than ours. I wouldn't design a bike that wouldn't work fine with a drop. With appropriate-sized stems for the size. Granted, my personal Sam is a 60 with a 7stem, and that's borderline funky, but that's on a 62.5 top tube, and I'm a mere 5-9.9. G -- Grant Rivendell Bicycle Workswww.rivbike.com 925 933 7304 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.-Hide quoted text - - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group athttp:// groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 8:08 PM, JoelMatthews joelmatth...@mac.com wrote: You can disparage that as following impractical race standards all you want, but the fact of the matter is that lower bar height works better for me. Not disparaging anything. However, if you read through GP's Readers he goes to great detail that he designed bikes for what he felt was a more comfortable upright riding. I guess one can put race slicks on a Chevy Malibu if that is ones preferred tire, but wouldn't it make more sense to buy a Porsche? But again, it's just silly to think that Rivendells don't work well with drop bars and even lowish drop bars, just as it is silly to imply that lowish bars are only for racing. Low bars work fine with Rivs, at least the four I've owned do. What do low bars (by Grant's massively high standards) have to do with racing? Nothing, as far as I can tell; some people like bars even with or lower than the saddle because it feels more comfortable; end of story. Of course, there is low and low. I wouldn't buy a Riv with sloping tt and extended ht in order to lower my bars six inches below saddle, but a modest 2 is perfectly fine and in no way racing. And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means of accommodating a weird build. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:14 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means of accommodating a weird build. Here's what I want to know. What is the size/proportion of legs/torso arms/height that is expected and/or designed for? I'd like to better know where I fit in the range of things. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:18 PM, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:14 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: And I have short arms for my height, so low bars aren't simply a means of accommodating a weird build. Here's what I want to know. What is the size/proportion of legs/torso arms/height that is expected and/or designed for? Do you mean, that is expected by Rivendell and designed for by Rivendell? IOW, what build does Grant have in mind when he designs his bikes? I'd guess the normal range. I'd like to better know where I fit in the range of things. Are you an outlier? I have an Asian build on an Anglo Saxon scale. When I stand up, my brother in law named Hansen is 3 taller than I at 6'1. When we sit down, my head is even with his. He'd fit fine on a Riv, as do I. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:25 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you mean, that is expected by Rivendell and designed for by Rivendell? IOW, what build does Grant have in mind when he designs his bikes? I'd guess the normal range. Yes - but I don't know what 'normal' is. This is why I asked. :) I'm not being dense - I really don't know. I always thought I was normal but well maybe not. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
Can you find shirts and pants that fit you in the men's section at large chain stores? Then you are normal, no? On Wed, May 5, 2010 at 10:29 PM, Seth Vidal skvi...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:25 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Do you mean, that is expected by Rivendell and designed for by Rivendell? IOW, what build does Grant have in mind when he designs his bikes? I'd guess the normal range. Yes - but I don't know what 'normal' is. This is why I asked. :) I'm not being dense - I really don't know. I always thought I was normal but well maybe not. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.comrbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Patrick Moore Albuquerque, NM For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW at resumespecialt...@gmail.com (505) 227-0523 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Re: Riv frames work great with drop bars
On Thu, May 6, 2010 at 12:32 AM, PATRICK MOORE bertin...@gmail.com wrote: Can you find shirts and pants that fit you in the men's section at large chain stores? Then you are normal, no? Shirts, if they are in the 'Tall' section. I find I can't keep them tucked in if they are not. and Pants if they are normalish. 30 or 32 inseam on the pants - my PBH is something like 87 or 88. I know I can standover a 34 top tube w/o being bothered by it. I also know that I have a 58cm atlantis and an 7cm stem. If the bars got any further away from me I would be uncomfortable. I considered a 61cm as an option but it still seems like it would be making the reach worse. -sv -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
