[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Matt Beecher]

I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have no 
confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
Riv. 

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

>
>
> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Ryan Frahm]

Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be 
worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
to do anything on a steel frame. 

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:

> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have no 
> confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
> Riv. 
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
>> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Piaw Na]

When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder bolt 
and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them having to 
rebox it.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be 
> worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>
>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have no 
>> confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
>> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
>> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
>> Riv. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
>>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
>>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
>>> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Doug H.]

There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset but 
I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
Doug

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
> having to rebox it.
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be 
>> worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
>> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
>> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>>
>>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have 
>>> no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
>>> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
>>> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
>>> Riv. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>


 *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
 chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
 wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
 of getting frames sold and shipped. 



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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Joe Bernard]

Doug, 

Keep an eye out for the Mermaid 55cm Proto Rosco Platy at Riv, it's going 
to go up on the block one of these days. There was a time when I may have 
grabbed it myself but I'm good with my custom now..YOU buy it! 

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:02:05 PM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:

> There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset 
> but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
> lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
> Doug
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
>> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
>> having to rebox it.
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might 
>>> be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
>>> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
>>> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>>>
 I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have 
 no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
 whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
 get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
 Riv. 

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

>
>
> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
> process 
> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[lconley]

I bought the hanger alignment tool several years back - a great investment. 
Bikes get knocked around over the years. A lot of my bikes needed 
alignment. Especially important on bikes with indexed shifting.
The derailleur tap also helped with new frames - the hanger is always full 
of paint.
I used to feel bad about not using the LBS, but not any more. These guys 
(why no women?), some of whom are half the age of of my older bikes, are 
always trying to sell me on something that I don't want or need, like 
tubeless. If you have 25+ bikes, no way I want to add higher maintenance 
items to my bikes to solve a problem that I don't have - I have no idea 
what a pinch flat is. They don't carry even the simplest of items, I went 
to 4 shops and none of them had a seatpost binder bolt - evidently all new 
bike use clamps.

Laing

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:23:50 PM UTC-4 fra...@gmail.com wrote:

> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be 
> worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>
>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have no 
>> confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
>> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
>> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
>> Riv. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
>>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
>>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
>>> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Matt Beecher]

My problem is that the town was engulfed relatively recently by the Chicago 
suburbs.  It probably would not have supported a LBS in the past, so this 
one opened maybe 20 years ago(guessing).  They don't seem to appreciate 
well made steel bikes, catering to a lot of CF and aluminum.  I would not 
expect that they would have the taps needed.  

I suspect they also think I am weird, referring once to me as a 
"tinkerer".  I assume it is because of some of the relative oddities I come 
in with, from 1940's/1950's bikes, to Rivs with dynamo lighting.  They had 
never seen dynamo wiring before and were confused about them.  .

Matt

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 7:06:01 AM UTC-5 lconley wrote:

> I bought the hanger alignment tool several years back - a great 
> investment. Bikes get knocked around over the years. A lot of my bikes 
> needed alignment. Especially important on bikes with indexed shifting.
> The derailleur tap also helped with new frames - the hanger is always full 
> of paint.
> I used to feel bad about not using the LBS, but not any more. These guys 
> (why no women?), some of whom are half the age of of my older bikes, are 
> always trying to sell me on something that I don't want or need, like 
> tubeless. If you have 25+ bikes, no way I want to add higher maintenance 
> items to my bikes to solve a problem that I don't have - I have no idea 
> what a pinch flat is. They don't carry even the simplest of items, I went 
> to 4 shops and none of them had a seatpost binder bolt - evidently all new 
> bike use clamps.
>
> Laing
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:23:50 PM UTC-4 fra...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might be 
>> worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
>> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
>> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>>
>>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have 
>>> no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
>>> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
>>> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
>>> Riv. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>


 *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
 chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
 wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the process 
 of getting frames sold and shipped. 



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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[James]

What led to the change of heart Doug?  I have been considering a Rosco 
Platty for a while (would ride a 60cm tho)

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:

> There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset 
> but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
> lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
> Doug
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
>> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
>> having to rebox it.
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might 
>>> be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
>>> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill 
>>> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>>>
 I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have 
 no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
 whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
 get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new 
 Riv. 

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:

>
>
> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
> process 
> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Doug H.]

James,
No change of heart here just checking to see if recent buyers of the Rosco 
have had a change of heart. I did not jump on the sale immediately and poof 
they were gone.
Doug

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:33:21 AM UTC-4 James wrote:

> What led to the change of heart Doug?  I have been considering a Rosco 
> Platty for a while (would ride a 60cm tho)
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset 
>> but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
>> lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
>>> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
>>> having to rebox it.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might 
 be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS 
 that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the 
 skill 
 to do anything on a steel frame. 

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:

> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have 
> no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess 
> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will 
> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another 
> new 
> Riv. 
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
>> process 
>> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Brian Forsee]

I disagree with those that think its sad Riv is no longer doing this prep. 
Is it slightly less convenient if you are buying frame only? Sure. By 
previously providing this service I really think Riv was going above and 
beyond. Unpacking a frame, completing these items, and re-packing for 
shipping is time consuming. Straightening the hanger and possibly cleaning 
up some paint in some threads are items that will need to be completed on 
any painted steel frame with an integral hanger. Most competent bike shops 
will be able to complete these tasks for a reasonable fee, regardless of 
whether or not they swoon over your new frame the same way you do. Rivs and 
Riv style bike stuff is a niche market in the grand scheme of things. 

Brian F

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:21:58 AM UTC-5 Doug H. wrote:

> James,
> No change of heart here just checking to see if recent buyers of the Rosco 
> have had a change of heart. I did not jump on the sale immediately and poof 
> they were gone.
> Doug
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:33:21 AM UTC-4 James wrote:
>
>> What led to the change of heart Doug?  I have been considering a Rosco 
>> Platty for a while (would ride a 60cm tho)
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:
>>
>>> There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset 
>>> but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
>>> lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
>>> Doug
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
 bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
 having to rebox it.

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might 
> be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the 
> LBS 
> that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the 
> skill 
> to do anything on a steel frame. 
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>
>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would 
>> have no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second 
>> guess whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of 
>> pleading 
>> will get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying 
>> another 
>> new Riv. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads 
>>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv 
>>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
>>> process 
>>> of getting frames sold and shipped. 
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Joe Bernard]

To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not sad 
about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped frames 
on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be prepped. 
It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new Roadini 
frame out there people can buy. 

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 7:34:16 AM UTC-7 bmfo...@gmail.com 
wrote:

> I disagree with those that think its sad Riv is no longer doing this prep. 
> Is it slightly less convenient if you are buying frame only? Sure. By 
> previously providing this service I really think Riv was going above and 
> beyond. Unpacking a frame, completing these items, and re-packing for 
> shipping is time consuming. Straightening the hanger and possibly cleaning 
> up some paint in some threads are items that will need to be completed on 
> any painted steel frame with an integral hanger. Most competent bike shops 
> will be able to complete these tasks for a reasonable fee, regardless of 
> whether or not they swoon over your new frame the same way you do. Rivs and 
> Riv style bike stuff is a niche market in the grand scheme of things. 
>
> Brian F
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:21:58 AM UTC-5 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> James,
>> No change of heart here just checking to see if recent buyers of the 
>> Rosco have had a change of heart. I did not jump on the sale immediately 
>> and poof they were gone.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:33:21 AM UTC-4 James wrote:
>>
>>> What led to the change of heart Doug?  I have been considering a Rosco 
>>> Platty for a while (would ride a 60cm tho)
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 9:02:05 PM UTC-4 Doug H. wrote:
>>>
 There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset 
 but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the 
 lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
 Doug

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder 
> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them 
> having to rebox it.
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. 
>> Might be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for 
>> the LBS that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually 
>> have 
>> the skill to do anything on a steel frame. 
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:
>>
>>> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would 
>>> have no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me 
>>> second 
>>> guess whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of 
>>> pleading 
>>> will get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying 
>>> another 
>>> new Riv. 
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>


 *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs 
 threads chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda 
 wish 
 Riv wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
 process of getting frames sold and shipped. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Doug H.]

Joe,
I will keep watching the garage sale section of the website!
Doug

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 1:18 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> Doug,
>
> Keep an eye out for the Mermaid 55cm Proto Rosco Platy at Riv, it's going
> to go up on the block one of these days. There was a time when I may have
> grabbed it myself but I'm good with my custom now..YOU buy it!
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:02:05 PM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> There are lots of folks on this list who I'm sure could prep a frameset
>> but I wouldn't buy one unprepped. Speaking of changes of heart, I'm on the
>> lookout for a 55 Rosco Platy owner with buyer's regret. It happens.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 8:15:31 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>>
>>> When I picked up my Roadini they'd already installed a seatpost binder
>>> bolt and aligned the frame. But I picked it up in person to avoid them
>>> having to rebox it.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 3:23:50 PM UTC-7 fra...@gmail.com
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Extremely sad if you can’t trust your LBS with such an easy job. Might
 be worth just getting the tools and doing it yourself. Or look for the LBS
 that looks so rundown nobody would think to go, they usually have the skill
 to do anything on a steel frame.

 On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 2:24:33 PM UTC-7 Matt Beecher wrote:

> I also think it is sad that they are not doing this prep. I would have
> no confidence in my LBS doing that well, which would make me second guess
> whether to get another Riv.  I'm hoping that some amount of pleading will
> get them to reconsider this, if I am ever interested in buying another new
> Riv.
>
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 1:59:39 PM UTC-5 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> *The missing binder bolt signals to me that this frame needs threads
>> chased and the derailleur hanger checked/straightened, I kinda wish Riv
>> wasn't selling them to folks this way but I guess it speeds up the 
>> process
>> of getting frames sold and shipped.
>>
>> --
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> .
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[藍俊彪]

On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:

> To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not sad
> about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped frames
> on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be prepped.
> It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new Roadini
> frame out there people can buy.
>
> I'm surprised at the number of people here who can't trust their LBS to
prep a frame. Is it because the modern CF/AL frames don't need prepping? I
certainly don't have a frame alignment table or a derailleur hanger
straightener, much less the tool required to prep a headtube prior to
installing headset and fork. It's been years since I carried a headset
wrench while touring as well. But I recently had trouble with one of my
kids' bikes not indexing correctly no matter what I did. Took it to the LBS
and they diagnosed it as a bent hanger. They fixed it and then decided not
to charge me since their credit card machine was broken.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Joe Bernard]

I don't even know where my LBS is, I work on my own bikes. I assume Riv is 
still prepping their frames for an extra fee, I would pay it. 

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:22:57 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
>> To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not 
>> sad about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped 
>> frames on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be 
>> prepped. It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new 
>> Roadini frame out there people can buy. 
>>
>> I'm surprised at the number of people here who can't trust their LBS to 
> prep a frame. Is it because the modern CF/AL frames don't need prepping? I 
> certainly don't have a frame alignment table or a derailleur hanger 
> straightener, much less the tool required to prep a headtube prior to 
> installing headset and fork. It's been years since I carried a headset 
> wrench while touring as well. But I recently had trouble with one of my 
> kids' bikes not indexing correctly no matter what I did. Took it to the LBS 
> and they diagnosed it as a bent hanger. They fixed it and then decided not 
> to charge me since their credit card machine was broken. 
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[J J]

I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do work 
myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy 
work — or worse. 

The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on which we 
had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find polished 
version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video showing 
fender installation and could they please check it out and follow Mark’s 
method. 

Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who 
wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, 
anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork 
was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved 
back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of 
several employees, including the shop manager, the mechanic tried to bend 
the tab back using the Racer as leverage for his pliers. He did this 
despite my partner telling him “shouldn’t you take it off before you do 
that?” He totally ignored her, and in a second he put a gash into the the 
brake bridge. Now we’re not precious about nicks and scratches. But this 
was a deep gash on a brand new set of rare Racers, and it was horrible. It’s 
painful even recalling it. I regret that I didn’t intervene before he 
ruined it (though again, he ignored my partner, which could be another 
story for another thread about the contempt and condescension with which 
many LBS mechanics and sales people treat women). 

I think we have mythologized local bike shops. Sure, I’ve had some great 
experiences. But the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting, and 
recent experiences left me with extreme, long lasting  bitterness. Local 
shops have forgotten to reattach brake cables after a service, left the 
quick release skewers very loose, stripped threads, made adjustments worse, 
I could go on and on — basic stuff that should not happen and that have 
safety implications. It’s to the point that the only “local” shop I trust 
anymore is about 50 miles away, even though I have at least 5 shops within 
walking distance, a few blocks from where I live. I don’t want shops to use 
my bikes for training mechanics. It’s too unreliable. On top of that, the 
local shops’ labor rates are not less than Rivendell’s rates, and in my 
area, they are often *more*, adding insult to injury. For me it’s a 
no-brainer to pay Rivendell to do the work, pay extra for repacking, and so 
on. I don’t mean to rag on LBSs, though. I’m just sharing my actual 
experiences and thoughts. 

I suppose one good outcome of these crappy experiences is that it’s 
compelled me to invest in tools and put in time to learn skills. This forum 
has been a great educator, too. So thanks, forum!! I’m sorry this veered a 
lot from the original post topic. 

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 11:27:04 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:

> I don't even know where my LBS is, I work on my own bikes. I assume Riv is 
> still prepping their frames for an extra fee, I would pay it. 
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:22:57 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>>> To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not 
>>> sad about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped 
>>> frames on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be 
>>> prepped. It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new 
>>> Roadini frame out there people can buy. 
>>>
>>> I'm surprised at the number of people here who can't trust their LBS to 
>> prep a frame. Is it because the modern CF/AL frames don't need prepping? I 
>> certainly don't have a frame alignment table or a derailleur hanger 
>> straightener, much less the tool required to prep a headtube prior to 
>> installing headset and fork. It's been years since I carried a headset 
>> wrench while touring as well. But I recently had trouble with one of my 
>> kids' bikes not indexing correctly no matter what I did. Took it to the LBS 
>> and they diagnosed it as a bent hanger. They fixed it and then decided not 
>> to charge me since their credit card machine was broken. 
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Piaw Na]

Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled Cheviot 
a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had to adjust 
the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot less 
forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I can 
build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but my 
definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". But 
I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I can't or 
don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
brake pads too early than I am.

On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
> confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
> have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do work 
> myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy 
> work — or worse. 
>
> The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on which we 
> had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find polished 
> version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video showing 
> fender installation and could they please check it out and follow Mark’s 
> method. 
>
> Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who 
> wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, 
> anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork 
> was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved 
> back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of 
> several employees, including the shop manager, the mechanic tried to bend 
> the tab back using the Racer as leverage for his pliers. He did this 
> despite my partner telling him “shouldn’t you take it off before you do 
> that?” He totally ignored her, and in a second he put a gash into the the 
> brake bridge. Now we’re not precious about nicks and scratches. But this 
> was a deep gash on a brand new set of rare Racers, and it was horrible. It’s 
> painful even recalling it. I regret that I didn’t intervene before he 
> ruined it (though again, he ignored my partner, which could be another 
> story for another thread about the contempt and condescension with which 
> many LBS mechanics and sales people treat women). 
>
> I think we have mythologized local bike shops. Sure, I’ve had some great 
> experiences. But the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting, and 
> recent experiences left me with extreme, long lasting  bitterness. Local 
> shops have forgotten to reattach brake cables after a service, left the 
> quick release skewers very loose, stripped threads, made adjustments worse, 
> I could go on and on — basic stuff that should not happen and that have 
> safety implications. It’s to the point that the only “local” shop I trust 
> anymore is about 50 miles away, even though I have at least 5 shops within 
> walking distance, a few blocks from where I live. I don’t want shops to use 
> my bikes for training mechanics. It’s too unreliable. On top of that, the 
> local shops’ labor rates are not less than Rivendell’s rates, and in my 
> area, they are often *more*, adding insult to injury. For me it’s a 
> no-brainer to pay Rivendell to do the work, pay extra for repacking, and so 
> on. I don’t mean to rag on LBSs, though. I’m just sharing my actual 
> experiences and thoughts. 
>
> I suppose one good outcome of these crappy experiences is that it’s 
> compelled me to invest in tools and put in time to learn skills. This forum 
> has been a great educator, too. So thanks, forum!! I’m sorry this veered a 
> lot from the original post topic. 
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 11:27:04 AM UTC-4 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I don't even know where my LBS is, I work on my own bikes. I assume Riv 
>> is still prepping their frames for an extra fee, I would pay it. 
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 8:22:57 AM UTC-7 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Sep 14, 2022 at 8:15 AM Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
 To be clear cuz I'm the OP and this is going to reflect on me, I'm not 
 sad about anything. My concern is we're going to end up with unprepped 
 frames on the used market that unsuspecting buyers won't know need to be 
 prepped. It wasn't the main point of my post, which is that there's a new 
 Roadini frame out there people can buy. 

 I'm surprised at the number of people here who can't trust their LBS to 
>>> prep a frame. Is it because the modern CF/AL frames don't need prepping? I 
>>> certainly don't have a frame alignment table or a derailleur hanger 
>>> straightener, much less the tool required to prep a headtube prior to 
>>> installing headset and fork. It's been years since I carried a headset 
>>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Joe Bernard]

That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were in 
> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>
>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For me 
> the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the 
> attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend 
> the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and 
> arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and 
> despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have been 
> as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will 
> be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 
>
> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
>> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had 
>> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
>> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
>> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but 
>> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". 
>> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I can't 
>> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
>> since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
>> brake pads too early than I am.
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>
>>> I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
>>> confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
>>> have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do work 
>>> myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy 
>>> work — or worse. 
>>>
>>> The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on which 
>>> we had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find polished 
>>> version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video showing 
>>> fender installation and could they please check it out and follow Mark’s 
>>> method. 
>>>
>>> Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who 
>>> wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, 
>>> anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork 
>>> was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved 
>>> back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of 
>>> several employees, including the shop manager, the mechanic tried to bend 
>>> the tab back using the Racer as leverage for his pliers. He did this 
>>> despite my partner telling him “shouldn’t you take it off before you do 
>>> that?” He totally ignored her, and in a second he put a gash into the the 
>>> brake bridge. Now we’re not precious about nicks and scratches. But this 
>>> was a deep gash on a brand new set of rare Racers, and it was horrible. 
>>> It’s 
>>> painful even recalling it. I regret that I didn’t intervene before he 
>>> ruined it (though again, he ignored my partner, which could be another 
>>> story for another thread about the contempt and condescension with which 
>>> many LBS mechanics and sales people treat women). 
>>>
>>> I think we have mythologized local bike shops. Sure, I’ve had some great 
>>> experiences. But the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting, and 
>>> recent experiences left me with extreme, long lasting  bitterness. Local 
>>> shops have forgotten to reattach brake cables after a service, left the 
>>> quick release skewers very loose, stripped threads, made adjustments worse, 
>>> I could go on and on — basic stuff that should not happen and that have 
>>> safety implications. It’s to the point that the only “local” shop I trust 
>>> anymore is about 50 miles away, even though I have at least 5 shops within 
>>> walking distance, a few blocks from where I live. I don’t want shops to use 
>>> my bikes for training mechanics. It’s too unreliable. On top of that, the 
>>> local shops’ labor rates are not less than Rivendell’s rates, and in my 
>>> area, they are often *more*, adding insult to injury. For me it’s a 
>>> no-brainer to pay Rivendell to do the work, pay extra for repacking, and so 
>>> on. I don’t mean to rag on LBSs, though. I’m just sharing my actual 
>>> exp

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Piaw Na]

Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like that 
and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
> expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>
>> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
>> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
>> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
>> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were in 
>> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>>
>>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For 
>> me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the 
>> attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend 
>> the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and 
>> arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and 
>> despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have been 
>> as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will 
>> be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 
>>
>> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   
>>
>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
>>> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had 
>>> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
>>> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
>>> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but 
>>> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". 
>>> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I can't 
>>> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
>>> since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
>>> brake pads too early than I am.
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>>
 I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
 confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
 have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do work 
 myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy 
 work — or worse. 

 The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on which 
 we had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find polished 
 version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video showing 
 fender installation and could they please check it out and follow Mark’s 
 method. 

 Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who 
 wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, 
 anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork 
 was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved 
 back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of 
 several employees, including the shop manager, the mechanic tried to bend 
 the tab back using the Racer as leverage for his pliers. He did this 
 despite my partner telling him “shouldn’t you take it off before you do 
 that?” He totally ignored her, and in a second he put a gash into the the 
 brake bridge. Now we’re not precious about nicks and scratches. But this 
 was a deep gash on a brand new set of rare Racers, and it was horrible. 
 It’s 
 painful even recalling it. I regret that I didn’t intervene before he 
 ruined it (though again, he ignored my partner, which could be another 
 story for another thread about the contempt and condescension with which 
 many LBS mechanics and sales people treat women). 

 I think we have mythologized local bike shops. Sure, I’ve had some 
 great experiences. But the proof of the pudding is always in the tasting, 
 and recent experiences left me with extreme, long lasting  bitterness. 
 Local shops have forgotten to reattach brake cables after a service, left 
 the quick release skewers very loose, stripped threads, made adjustments 
 worse, I could go on and on — basic stuff that should not happen and that 
 have safety implications. It’s to the point that the only “local” shop I 
 trust anymore is about 50 miles away, even though I have at least 5 shops 
 within walking distance, a few blocks from where I live. I don’t want 
 shops 
 to use my bikes for training mechanics. It’s too unreliable. On top of 
 that, the local shops’ l

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[J J]

We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
was like, wtf?!? 

The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
Component resuming Racer production.

It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
those brakes.

Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was 
not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to 
bike nerds and to nerds in the making.

Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if I 
had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do any 
frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it meant 
waiting a while.

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:

> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like that 
> and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
>> expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
>>> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
>>> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
>>> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were in 
>>> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>>>
>>>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For 
>>> me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the 
>>> attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend 
>>> the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and 
>>> arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and 
>>> despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have been 
>>> as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will 
>>> be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 
>>>
>>> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
 Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had 
 to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
 less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
 can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but 
 my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". 
 But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
 can't 
 or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
 since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
 brake pads too early than I am.

 On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
> confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
> have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do 
> work 
> myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for sloppy 
> work — or worse. 
>
> The most recent example was a fender installation on a Wilbury on 
> which we had just installed a NOS set of Paul Racers (the hard to find 
> polished version). I told the shop that Rivendell has a detailed video 
> showing fender installation and could they please check it out and follow 
> Mark’s method. 
>
> Long story as short as I can make it: the eager, wide-eyed mechanic who 
> wanted to work on the bike because he “loves Rivendells”  did it his way, 
> anyway. The fender hanger tab that bolts onto the brake hole on the fork 
> was unevenly bent and rubbing against the headset as the handlebar moved 
> back and forth. We took it back to have them fix it, and in full view of 
> several employees, includin

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[ascpgh]

More saintly than I would have been if standing there. 

"Honest mistake" is the rationalization of a good samaritan not someone 
with access to tools holding themself out as a mechanic. What was described 
was a task in need of being done right by someone who didn't do so in the 
first place. Instead of acknowledging their corner-cutting, inadequate 
effort or skill by carefully doing it right the second time, they applied 
the same slapdash degree of "wrenching". I would have called them out and 
stopped things when pliers and a big screwdriver appeared. 

What do people like that intend to do with any time they save by doing work 
so poorly? 

Andy Cheatham
Pittsburgh
On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:21:29 PM UTC-4 J J wrote:

> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
> was like, wtf?!? 
>
> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
> Component resuming Racer production.
>
> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
> those brakes.
>
> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was 
> not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to 
> bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>
> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if 
> I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do 
> any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it 
> meant waiting a while.
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
>> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
>>> expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
 totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
 difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
 recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
 in 
 earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)

  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For 
 me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the 
 attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend 
 the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and 
 arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and 
 despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have 
 been 
 as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will 
 be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 

 [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   

 On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had 
> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but 
> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". 
> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
> can't 
> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
> since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
> brake pads too early than I am.
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>
>> I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
>> confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
>> have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do 
>> work 
>> myself. I’m stunned

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[J J]

Thanks for your note, Andy. I agree 100 percent. 

My partner *did* *intervene* before the damage occurred, asking the 
mechanic to put the bike on a stand and take the wheel off. He ignored her.

“Honest mistake”. Ugh. 

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 7:54:59 AM UTC-4 ascpgh wrote:

> More saintly than I would have been if standing there. 
>
> "Honest mistake" is the rationalization of a good samaritan not someone 
> with access to tools holding themself out as a mechanic. What was described 
> was a task in need of being done right by someone who didn't do so in the 
> first place. Instead of acknowledging their corner-cutting, inadequate 
> effort or skill by carefully doing it right the second time, they applied 
> the same slapdash degree of "wrenching". I would have called them out and 
> stopped things when pliers and a big screwdriver appeared. 
>
> What do people like that intend to do with any time they save by doing 
> work so poorly? 
>
> Andy Cheatham
> Pittsburgh
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 3:21:29 PM UTC-4 J J wrote:
>
>> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
>> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
>> was like, wtf?!? 
>>
>> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
>> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
>> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
>> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
>> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
>> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
>> Component resuming Racer production.
>>
>> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
>> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
>> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
>> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
>> those brakes.
>>
>> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was 
>> not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to 
>> bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>>
>> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if 
>> I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do 
>> any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it 
>> meant waiting a while.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
>>> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
 expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
> in 
> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>
>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. 
> For me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown 
> in 
> the attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to 
> bend the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge 
> and arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, 
> and despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't 
> have 
> been as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they 
> evidently 
> will be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened 
> regardless. 
>
> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
>> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and 
>> had 
>> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
>> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
>> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), 
>> but 
>> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and 
>> forget". 
>> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
>> can't 
>> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work 
>> myself 
>> since frequently they'

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Ryan]

Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.

A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a couple 
of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I picked 
them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to 
find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy 
skewer. 

No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me

On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:

> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
> was like, wtf?!? 
>
> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
> Component resuming Racer production.
>
> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
> those brakes.
>
> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was 
> not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to 
> bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>
> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if 
> I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do 
> any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it 
> meant waiting a while.
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
>> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
>>> expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>>
 Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
 totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
 difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
 recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
 in 
 earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)

  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. For 
 me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in the 
 attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to bend 
 the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge and 
 arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, and 
 despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have 
 been 
 as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently will 
 be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened regardless. 

 [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   

 On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had 
> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but 
> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget". 
> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
> can't 
> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself 
> since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts like 
> brake pads too early than I am.
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 9:39:10 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>
>> I would happily pay extra for Riv to prep a frame. I have absolute 
>> confidence in their work. There are lots of bike shops in my area that I 
>> have gone to when I didn’t have the time, tools, or inclination to do 
>> work 
>> myself. I’m stunned by how consistently they can be counted on for 
>> sloppy 
>> work — or worse. 
>>
>> The most recent exampl

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[藍俊彪]

Are the Paul's brakes particularly hard to install yourself? One reason why
I'm such an adamant adherent of the sidepull caliper is that it's
impossible to install wrong. I sold my Heron touring bike with Paul's Neo
Retros cantilever brakes in 2007 to a colleague of mine. She got another
friend to help build the bike up. He started the evening saying to her,
"Piaw has an irrational dislike of cantilever brakes." 4 hours later, he
was swearing at them and saying, "Ok, maybe not so irrational..."

On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 12:21 PM Ryan  wrote:

> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>
> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a
> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I
> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing.
> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it.
> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to
> find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy
> skewer.
>
> No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>
>> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over
>> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it
>> was like, wtf?!?
>>
>> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an
>> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere
>> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor
>> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other
>> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard
>> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul
>> Component resuming Racer production.
>>
>> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs,
>> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB
>> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the
>> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted
>> those brakes.
>>
>> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was
>> not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to
>> bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>>
>> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if
>> I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do
>> any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it
>> meant waiting a while.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like
>>> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very
 expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer.

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I
> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big
> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence,
> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
> in
> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>
>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances.
> For me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown in
> the attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to
> bend the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge
> and arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock,
> and despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't have
> been as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they evidently
> will be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened
> regardless.
>
> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled
>> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and had
>> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot
>> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I
>> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), but
>> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and forget".
>> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
>> can't
>> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work myself
>>

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[J J]

That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 

A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I 
picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting 
nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through 
the axle without clamping it down.

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>
> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a 
> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I 
> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to 
> find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy 
> skewer. 
>
> No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>
>> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
>> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
>> was like, wtf?!? 
>>
>> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
>> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
>> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
>> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
>> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
>> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
>> Component resuming Racer production.
>>
>> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
>> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
>> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
>> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
>> those brakes.
>>
>> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it was 
>> not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things matter to 
>> bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>>
>> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that if 
>> I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to do 
>> any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it 
>> meant waiting a while.
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
>>> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
 expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:

> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
> in 
> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>
>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. 
> For me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown 
> in 
> the attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted to 
> bend the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake bridge 
> and arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop looked on with shock, 
> and despite the fact that he was asked to do it properly. It wouldn't 
> have 
> been as big a deal if the Racers were readily available (as they 
> evidently 
> will be again in a few months), but this shouldn't have happened 
> regardless. 
>
> [image: IMG_6141.jpg]   
>
> On Wednesday, September 14, 2022 at 1:15:28 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
> wrote:
>
>> Anyone can make mistakes. When we got my wife's Rivendell-assembled 
>> Cheviot a few years back, I ended up having to re-tighten the FD, and 
>> had 
>> to adjust the shifters several times. It's not a big deal. I'd be a lot 
>> less forgiving of frame prep failures. I'm a good enough mechanic that I 
>> can build wheels myself (and used to teach wheel-building workshops), 
>> but 
>> my definite preference is for parts and bikes that are "fire and 
>> forget". 
>> But I'm also blessed to have good mechanics at LBSes for times when I 
>> can't 
>> or don't have time to fix something myself. I still try to do work 
>> myself 
>> since frequently they're much more aggressive about replacing parts

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Ryan]

Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure

BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that 
rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you 
without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice 
for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the 
Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation 
, and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top 
dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer 
probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if 
I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who 
does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had 
been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would 
have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone 
can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it 
that's important

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:54:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:

> That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 
>
> A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I 
> picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting 
> nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through 
> the axle without clamping it down.
>
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>
>> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>>
>> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a 
>> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I 
>> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
>> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
>> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to 
>> find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy 
>> skewer. 
>>
>> No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>>
>>> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended over 
>>> the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And then it 
>>> was like, wtf?!? 
>>>
>>> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
>>> honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
>>> apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for labor 
>>> and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
>>> finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've heard 
>>> nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about Paul 
>>> Component resuming Racer production.
>>>
>>> It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the interwebs, 
>>> cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting out WTB 
>>> posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I preempted the 
>>> auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for them. I wanted 
>>> those brakes.
>>>
>>> Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it 
>>> was not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things 
>>> matter to bike nerds and to nerds in the making.
>>>
>>> Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that 
>>> if I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to 
>>> do any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if it 
>>> meant waiting a while.
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
 that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my (very 
> expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>
>> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
>> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a big 
>> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
>> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that were 
>> in 
>> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)
>>
>>  Where you draw the line is debatable and depends on circumstances. 
>> For me the big gash, scratches, and dings on brand new brakes, as shown 
>> in 
>> the attached pic, unequivocably cross the line. The mechanic attempted 
>> to 
>> bend the fender hanger tab with pliers while pushing off the brake 
>> bridge 
>> and arm, using them as leverage, as the entire shop lo

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Corwin Zechar]

Here, here JJ! I agree completely. Having Mark do the build and set up my 
bikes is one of the main reasons I buy bikes from Rivendell. Mark raises 
wrenching on bikes to a very high form of art.

Regards,

Corwin

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7 Ryan wrote:

> Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure
>
> BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that 
> rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you 
> without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice 
> for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the 
> Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation 
> , and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top 
> dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer 
> probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if 
> I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who 
> does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had 
> been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would 
> have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone 
> can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it 
> that's important
>
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:54:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>
>> That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 
>>
>> A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I 
>> picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting 
>> nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through 
>> the axle without clamping it down.
>>
>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>>>
>>> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a 
>>> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I 
>>> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
>>> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
>>> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to 
>>> find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy 
>>> skewer. 
>>>
>>> No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me
>>>
>>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>>>
 We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended 
 over the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And 
 then it was like, wtf?!? 

 The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was an 
 honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a mere 
 apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse for 
 labor 
 and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any other 
 finish) NOS Racers. It's been three months since it happened and I've 
 heard 
 nothing but crickets. So I was super pleased with Eric's message about 
 Paul 
 Component resuming Racer production.

 It had taken me nine months to find the brakes — scouring the 
 interwebs, cold calling dozens of bike shops all over the country, putting 
 out WTB posts. Finally a set appeared in an eBay auction listing. I 
 preempted the auction by offering the seller a (very) pretty penny for 
 them. I wanted those brakes.

 Now... I have not lost perspective. This ordeal was upsetting, but it 
 was not an issue of grave existential importance. Still, these things 
 matter to bike nerds and to nerds in the making.

 Getting back to the original theme of this thread, I'll reiterate that 
 if I had the option, I would gladly and enthusiastically pay Rivendell to 
 do any frame prep, builds, etc. over any of my local bike shops, even if 
 it 
 meant waiting a while.

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:26:36 PM UTC-4 pi...@gmail.com 
 wrote:

> Indeed. That's really appalling. I'm so glad my LBS is competent like 
> that and would tell me if they can't actually do the work. T
>
> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 11:05:04 AM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> That's appalling, I would have LOST it if someone did this to my 
>> (very expensive) Paul brakes. They owe you a new Racer. 
>>
>> On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 10:59:25 AM UTC-7 J J wrote:
>>
>>> Sorry, just noticed your note on this week-old thread, Piaw. Yes, I 
>>> totally agree that anyone can make mistakes. I also think there is a 
>>> big 
>>> difference between a genuinely innocent mistake and negligence, 
>>> recklessness, or incompetence. (Ignoring specific instructions that 
>>> were in 
>>> earshot of the entire shop is an unfortunate instance of negligence.)

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[J J]

Piaw, the installation in question was the fenders, not the Racer brakes, 
which are not too arduous to install. The damaged brake was a casualty of 
the mechanic ostensibly fixing a poor fender installation. And yes, 
installing fenders had seemed challenging and overly time consuming for me 
— that’s why I paid someone to do it on the Wilbury. 

But since that ordeal, I forced myself to actually install a new set of 
fenders on my Hunq to accommodate fatter tires. I’m happy to say that I now 
feel totally comfortable doing it (though they are still fussy and a pain 
to install, however easy Mark makes it look in the video. I must have 
watched it 10 times!).

Ryan, I have to give credit where it is due, and the shop owner, who works 
in a different city, was apologetic when he learned about what happened. He 
reached out to me and genuinely wanted to make things right. He committed 
to replacing the brakes. The challenge is actually *finding* new Racers, 
and so far none have appeared. (If anyone reading this has polished Racers 
they want to part with, please let me know!)

I told the owner that the mechanic seemed so enthusiastic about working on 
a Rivendell. The owner said, “and therein lies the problem. Sure, everyone 
will be bright eyed and bushy tailed about working on such a bike, but that 
does not mean they are qualified to do everything and anything on them.” I 
appreciated his forthrightness, but it raised the question of why the shop 
would assign the work to someone who wasn’t necessarily qualified to do it 
right. 

Corwin, thanks so much for your note. Your characterization of Mark’s work 
as high art is absolutely apropos. He’s also incredibly accessible and 
generous with his time, help, and advice (as is everyone I have ever 
interacted with at Rivendell).

Best wishes all. 


On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-4 cz...@sonic.net wrote:

> Here, here JJ! I agree completely. Having Mark do the build and set up my 
> bikes is one of the main reasons I buy bikes from Rivendell. Mark raises 
> wrenching on bikes to a very high form of art.
>
> Regards,
>
> Corwin
>
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7 Ryan wrote:
>
>> Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure
>>
>> BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that 
>> rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you 
>> without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice 
>> for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the 
>> Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation 
>> , and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top 
>> dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer 
>> probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if 
>> I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who 
>> does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had 
>> been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would 
>> have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone 
>> can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it 
>> that's important
>>
>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:54:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>>
>>> That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 
>>>
>>> A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I 
>>> picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting 
>>> nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through 
>>> the axle without clamping it down.
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:
>>>
 Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.

 A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a 
 couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I 
 picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
 Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
 Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to 
 find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy 
 skewer. 

 No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do more work for me

 On Thursday, September 22, 2022 at 2:21:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:

> We lost it, Joe. In the immediate aftermath, a quiet hush descended 
> over the entire shop because everyone was shocked by what happened. And 
> then it was like, wtf?!? 
>
> The shop's first response was an unsatisfying and defensive, "it was 
> an honest mistake," and they would have been content to settle it with a 
> mere apology. After a lot of negotiation, the shop agreed to reimburse 
> for 
> labor and to replace the brakes — but good luck finding polished (or any 
> other finish) NOS Racers. It's been thr

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[Ryan]

I'm glad to hear the shop owner will make things right and I hope those 
polished Racers surface sometime soon. They are lovely looking brakes. But 
I wonder if the RH brakes would be an acceptable compromise? They do have 
the virtue of being available and if your current brakes are scratched, but 
still functionally fine, maybe you could sell them at a discounted price.

https://www.renehersecycles.com/product-category/components/brakes/ 

About Roadinis or any other current Riv frame offering...I know Will and co 
are selling them unprepped to move them and I didn't necessarily see 
prepping as an option , but it is available for a fee isn't it?

On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 11:57:11 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:

> Piaw, the installation in question was the fenders, not the Racer brakes, 
> which are not too arduous to install. The damaged brake was a casualty of 
> the mechanic ostensibly fixing a poor fender installation. And yes, 
> installing fenders had seemed challenging and overly time consuming for me 
> — that’s why I paid someone to do it on the Wilbury. 
>
> But since that ordeal, I forced myself to actually install a new set of 
> fenders on my Hunq to accommodate fatter tires. I’m happy to say that I now 
> feel totally comfortable doing it (though they are still fussy and a pain 
> to install, however easy Mark makes it look in the video. I must have 
> watched it 10 times!).
>
> Ryan, I have to give credit where it is due, and the shop owner, who works 
> in a different city, was apologetic when he learned about what happened. He 
> reached out to me and genuinely wanted to make things right. He committed 
> to replacing the brakes. The challenge is actually *finding* new Racers, 
> and so far none have appeared. (If anyone reading this has polished Racers 
> they want to part with, please let me know!)
>
> I told the owner that the mechanic seemed so enthusiastic about working on 
> a Rivendell. The owner said, “and therein lies the problem. Sure, everyone 
> will be bright eyed and bushy tailed about working on such a bike, but that 
> does not mean they are qualified to do everything and anything on them.” I 
> appreciated his forthrightness, but it raised the question of why the shop 
> would assign the work to someone who wasn’t necessarily qualified to do it 
> right. 
>
> Corwin, thanks so much for your note. Your characterization of Mark’s work 
> as high art is absolutely apropos. He’s also incredibly accessible and 
> generous with his time, help, and advice (as is everyone I have ever 
> interacted with at Rivendell).
>
> Best wishes all. 
>
>
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-4 cz...@sonic.net wrote:
>
>> Here, here JJ! I agree completely. Having Mark do the build and set up my 
>> bikes is one of the main reasons I buy bikes from Rivendell. Mark raises 
>> wrenching on bikes to a very high form of art.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Corwin
>>
>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7 Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure
>>>
>>> BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that 
>>> rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you 
>>> without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice 
>>> for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the 
>>> Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation 
>>> , and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top 
>>> dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer 
>>> probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if 
>>> I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who 
>>> does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had 
>>> been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would 
>>> have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone 
>>> can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it 
>>> that's important
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:54:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>>>
 That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful. 

 A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I 
 picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting 
 nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through 
 the axle without clamping it down.

 On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>
> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a 
> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I 
> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing. 
> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it. 
> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 

Re: [RBW] Re: Roadini 61 on Craigslist (not mine)

[藍俊彪]

Oh yeah. I've never enjoyed either having fenders on the bike or installing
them. One year while touring in Europe, I hit a bout of rain and went into
a bike shop that sold these amazing clip-ons. They were so easy to install
and remove and unlike traditional full fenders never make the
scritch-scritch sound when riding off pavement when rocks get thrown onto
them. Since then I've switched to using those. Later on, I found SKS
clip-ons that work almost as well. I see that Rivendell has found similar
fenders and will be selling them soon.

On Fri, Sep 23, 2022 at 9:57 PM J J  wrote:

> Piaw, the installation in question was the fenders, not the Racer brakes,
> which are not too arduous to install. The damaged brake was a casualty of
> the mechanic ostensibly fixing a poor fender installation. And yes,
> installing fenders had seemed challenging and overly time consuming for me
> — that’s why I paid someone to do it on the Wilbury.
>
> But since that ordeal, I forced myself to actually install a new set of
> fenders on my Hunq to accommodate fatter tires. I’m happy to say that I now
> feel totally comfortable doing it (though they are still fussy and a pain
> to install, however easy Mark makes it look in the video. I must have
> watched it 10 times!).
>
> Ryan, I have to give credit where it is due, and the shop owner, who works
> in a different city, was apologetic when he learned about what happened. He
> reached out to me and genuinely wanted to make things right. He committed
> to replacing the brakes. The challenge is actually *finding* new Racers,
> and so far none have appeared. (If anyone reading this has polished Racers
> they want to part with, please let me know!)
>
> I told the owner that the mechanic seemed so enthusiastic about working on
> a Rivendell. The owner said, “and therein lies the problem. Sure, everyone
> will be bright eyed and bushy tailed about working on such a bike, but that
> does not mean they are qualified to do everything and anything on them.” I
> appreciated his forthrightness, but it raised the question of why the shop
> would assign the work to someone who wasn’t necessarily qualified to do it
> right.
>
> Corwin, thanks so much for your note. Your characterization of Mark’s work
> as high art is absolutely apropos. He’s also incredibly accessible and
> generous with his time, help, and advice (as is everyone I have ever
> interacted with at Rivendell).
>
> Best wishes all.
>
>
> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 10:58:36 PM UTC-4 cz...@sonic.net wrote:
>
>> Here, here JJ! I agree completely. Having Mark do the build and set up my
>> bikes is one of the main reasons I buy bikes from Rivendell. Mark raises
>> wrenching on bikes to a very high form of art.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Corwin
>>
>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:15:28 PM UTC-7 Ryan wrote:
>>
>>> Believe me...I was not best pleased, you may be sure
>>>
>>> BTW, J J, I hope that you presented that bike shop with a bill for that
>>> rear brake you went to so much effort to find and they reimbursed you
>>> without demur. Those Paul Racers are not cheap. I see on my 2016 invoice
>>> for my mixte custom...assembled by Mark Abele (go with the best 😊) the
>>> Racers were 288.00. Mark's labor was 220.00 + 50.00 for fender installation
>>> , and in my opinion, worth every penny. I am more than happy to pay  top
>>> dollar for first-class work. On the other hand , the vanishing skewer
>>> probably speaks to not properly overseeing a junior mechanic's work , if
>>> I'm being charitable. I do know the shop's owner and he's a good guy who
>>> does a lot for cycling in the city, and I am reasonably sure that if I had
>>> been able to source a new rear skewer and showed him a receipt, he would
>>> have probably given me credit or cash, which would have been fine. Anyone
>>> can make a mistake; it's what the maker of the mistake does to remedy it
>>> that's important
>>>
>>> On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:54:29 PM UTC-5 J J wrote:
>>>
 That sucks about the 501 skewers, Ryan. Awful.

 A local shop once serviced a bike (and did a “safety check”) and when I
 picked it up I noticed that the quick release skewer springs and adjusting
 nut were missing from the front wheel. They just pushed the skewer through
 the axle without clamping it down.

 On Friday, September 23, 2022 at 3:21:32 PM UTC-4 Ryan wrote:

> Yikes! I would be PISSED! That's inexcusable.
>
> A few years ago I took in a set of wheels with Mavic 501 hubs with a
> couple of other pairs of wheels  for some truing to a local BS and when I
> picked them up, the rear wheel  Mavic QR skewer was inexplicably missing.
> Just...gone. Phoned said bike shop, and no... they couldn't find it.
> Offered a replacement skewer, and BTW , 501 skewers are not easy to
> find...although I have not checked recently, so I just used an old Campy
> skewer.
>
> No, I'm not cool with having that bike shop do mor