Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Christopher Cote]

Like I said, that's my opinion. I would never begrudge you yours. 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[ted]

I'm glad you have found the solution that you like, but some of us do like the 
way cantilevers work and are glad they still exist. Saying cantilevers are 
obsolete and only exist for fashion is a mistake.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Christopher Cote]

Thanks. I had a Heron Road back in the day, too. It was a wonderful bike 
and I wish I still had it to complete the collection, but in reality, it is 
too racy for me. I'm much happier with wider tires and fenders.

I think the cantilever brakes I had last on the Heron Touring were the 
BR550s. I was on the fence between trying the V-brakes and the Tektro CR720 
brakes. I'm glad I went with the V brakes. IMO, cantilevers are really an 
outdated design (and this is coming from a confirmed retrogrouch). They 
only still exist for fashion's sake.

Chris


On Monday, November 7, 2016 at 6:26:20 PM UTC-5, Ryan Fleming wrote:
>
> glad you found a solution that worked out; that's a very nice bike and you 
> might've suffered from seller's remorse.
>
> I'm not in the market for one of the Herons myself at this stage of the 
> game, but I've always thought they were really nice understated  bikes and 
> I'm glad to see the brand is resurrected
>
> re: cantilevers; I had a horrid time with the Shimano BR550's which were 
> nice looking enough...cold-forged, yadda,yadda but did squeal and didn't 
> brake all that well. I thought the Shimano CX-70's were a vast 
> improvement...but you got the V-brakes to work, so your Heron sounds like 
> it's no longer on the chopping block
>
> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 4:45:33 PM UTC-6, Christopher Cote wrote:
>>
>> This thread motivated me to get out to the garage and install the 
>> V-brakes. I knew from having them on mountain bikes that they'd work fine, 
>> but I was hesitant because I've never liked the looks of a road bikes with 
>> V-brakes. Also, I didn't think I'd like the RL520 levers. I bought a set of 
>> the big fat Cane Creek aero levers when they first came out, and never 
>> liked them. I much prefer the old Shimano aero levers. I was pleasantly 
>> surprised that the brakes don't look too out of place, and I do like the 
>> feel of the RL520 levers. Of course, they work very well. They're light to 
>> the touch, powerful, smooth, and quiet. I can do stoppies and lock up the 
>> rear at will.
>>
>> I was able to get out for a short ride before it got dark. I didn't have 
>> time to tape the bars, as we're back in the dark ages, AKA standard time, 
>> and it gets dark at 4 o'clock in the afternoon here.
>>
>> 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, November 6, 2016 at 4:37:35 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>> Christopher: If the Heron can take 38 Compass tires, then, speaking only 
>>> for myself, I'd not hesitate for a minute to choose the Heron. IIRC (my Sam 
>>> Hill was an earlier model), the Sam can't fit tires much fatter.
>>>
>>> And V brakes are (at least judging from my experience in setting them up 
>>> and riding with them) much easier and better stopping than any canti I've 
>>> used.
>>>
>>> I have what may be a similar dilemma with my 1999 Joe Starck custom 
>>> fixed gear gofast. It's limited -- I asked Grant particularly for no dt 
>>> bottle cage braze ons, no tt cable housing stops or guides, no derailleur 
>>> hangar or housing stops (these things slow you down you know). Very many 
>>> times over the last 17-18 years I've told myself, "Alright, let's get real, 
>>> let's give this to Chauncey and have him braze on derailleur bits, rear 
>>> brake bits, bottle cage bits." Most recently, it's been rear brake bits, so 
>>> that I can use the lovely Sturmey Archer AM hub. But then, I take it out 
>>> for a climbing ride (it weighs under 18 lb), and I am once again convinced 
>>> that it would be foolish to alter it.
>>>
>>> Perhaps your dilemma is like this one. Me, I'd install V brakes and 
>>> Compass tires before I did anything else. The tires would do well on a Sam 
>>> Hill should you finally go that route.
>>>
>>> FWIW, I delight in taking the gofast, with Compass Elk Pass tires that 
>>> measure just under 28 mm on the skinny rims, on the less neglected of our 
>>> Rio Grand bosque acequia access trails. I admit to shivers of self 
>>> importance when, as I did just recently, pulled off the paved trail, 
>>> carried the bike across the motor vehicle barrier, set it down next to a 
>>> couple cyclocross riders, got on, and road off in the 76" fixed gear with 
>>> the single brake and 175 gram tires. I know, sorry.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 10:06 AM, Christopher Cote <
>>> christophe...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Thanks Patrick! I do have a set of V-brakes and Tektro RL520 levers 
 that I bought in a last-ditch effort to want to keep the bike. I haven't 
 gotten around to installing them yet, as I've been enjoying my mountain 
 bikes more this summer. I've also been eyeing the Compass 700x38mm tires, 
 whatever they're called. Currently the bike is shod with some 40mm WTB 
 Nanos that actually measure 37mm wide. I put them on for a "gravel" ride I 
 did earlier this summer and haven't bothered to take them off since they 
 ride surprisingly w

Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[drew]

My caliper (Paul racer) Sam fits 700x50 tires just fine, and I've run 42s with 
fenders just fine as well. Neither felt like I was pushing it.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Patrick Moore]

Thanks. And yours is from 2009, which would be about the same time, or
perhaps just a year or so later than mine was made. Point granted.

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:40 PM, Bob K.  wrote:

> Chris--That's a handsome bike!
>
> Patrick--Here are a couple of (admittedly very poor) clearance shots with
> the Shikoro 42s. The clearance is roughly a pinky's thickness on each side
> of the tire in front. Similar in back.
>
> Bob K. in Baltimore
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Christopher Cote]

Those are WTB Nano 700x40. They measure 37mm on my rims. That's the biggest 
that would fit in the chainstays.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Patrick Moore]

My Sam had cantilevers (IRDs, set up by Riv staff -- best brakes I've ever
used in terms of stopping power, light touch, and modulation or feel --
and, while it's been 6-7 years, I don't think mine could take such fat
tires. I ran Jack Brown Greens. Perhaps I mis-remember.

On Sun, Nov 6, 2016 at 5:22 PM, Bob K.  wrote:

> Patrick Moore said: "IIRC (my Sam Hill was an earlier model), the Sam
> can't fit tires much fatter."
>
> I run 42 mm Soma Shikoros on my '09 (canti) Sam, and could likely do so
> with fenders, though I haven't tried. I have also tried 47 mm Marathons
> without issue. Other folks even run 50 mm Big Bens, though I don't think
> they actually measure at 50 mm, and the clearance gets a bit sketchy.
> Anyway, my point being, if 10 mm is significant, which to me it is, then
> the Sam (at least the canti version) has significantly more clearance.
>
> Bob K. in Baltimore
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Bob K.]

Patrick Moore said: "IIRC (my Sam Hill was an earlier model), the Sam can't fit 
tires much fatter."

I run 42 mm Soma Shikoros on my '09 (canti) Sam, and could likely do so with 
fenders, though I haven't tried. I have also tried 47 mm Marathons without 
issue. Other folks even run 50 mm Big Bens, though I don't think they actually 
measure at 50 mm, and the clearance gets a bit sketchy. Anyway, my point being, 
if 10 mm is significant, which to me it is, then the Sam (at least the canti 
version) has significantly more clearance.

Bob K. in Baltimore

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Christopher Cote]

Hi all, this is my first post on this board, I've been lurking for a while. 
I recognize a lot of names from when I was active in the old iBOB mailing 
list years ago. Anyway, I signed up here because I'm considering a 
replacement for my Heron Touring. It's featued on Cyclofiend's "current 
classics" page here: 
http://www.cyclofiend.com/cc/2005/cc056-christophercote1105.html. I like 
the bike, it is comfortable and rides great, but I am in the "I don't like 
cantilever brakes" camp. I've had a few different brakes on it, each one 
lauded when it came out as the best canti that solves all the problems with 
cantis, but they all squeal, shudder, and don't brake as well as the 
calipers on my other bikes. I was considering the Hillborne. So, this 
review is a real eye-opener. I'm going to have to give this some 
consideration.

On Saturday, November 5, 2016 at 4:18:29 AM UTC-4, twowheeledtexan wrote:
>
> Hello all, 
> I'm the new owner of the previously mentioned Heron, and also an owner of 
> a 58cm 2TT Sam. I thought I'd drop a line and give my initial impressions 
> after only a couple commutes.
>
> My attraction to the Heron was mainly the canti brakes. I live in the PNW 
> and commute on my Sam, my 230lbs plus gear, rain, and hills is more than I 
> feel the brakes on the Sam can handle. First were the long reach Tektros, 
> currently using Paul centerpulls which are only marginally better. On 
> braking, the Heron wins easily with cantis.
>
> The frame is certainly livelier. Lighter tubing than the Sam as previously 
> mentioned and the Sam has a 2TT. Heron rides more like my Romulus, and the 
> Sam feels more planted and firmer. The geometry of the Heron I also like 
> better, though that's a personal preference. The front end feels like it's 
> a lower trail than the Sam, it has that wheel flop turn in that a low trail 
> bike exhibits. The Heron also tracks straighter while riding no hands. The 
> Sam had a tendency to wander a bit at high speed. It would move a little 
> left, then a little right, almost like being billowed by wind. It wasn't a 
> shimmy, but nevertheless it was a sensation that I didn't like. So far the 
> Heron tracks straight. 
>
> I'll update as I have more time on the Heron. I did really enjoy my Sam 
> and if it had cantis I'd still be riding it. FYI, my Sam will be up for 
> sale in the coming weeks after I move parts around and get settled into the 
> Heron. If you're interested drop me a line. 
>
> Aaron
>
> On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-7, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
>> I'm thinking about the Heron posted earlier to replace my Sam for c daily 
>> commuting and other on road bicycle related activities. My only other bike 
>> is a Brompton and that's all I have room for. I wasn't aware of Riv or GP 
>> when the Heron was current. Where does it fit in to the pantheon? Thoughts 
>> on the pros and cons of each model? 
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[twowheeledtexan]

Hello all, 
I'm the new owner of the previously mentioned Heron, and also an owner of a 
58cm 2TT Sam. I thought I'd drop a line and give my initial impressions 
after only a couple commutes.

My attraction to the Heron was mainly the canti brakes. I live in the PNW 
and commute on my Sam, my 230lbs plus gear, rain, and hills is more than I 
feel the brakes on the Sam can handle. First were the long reach Tektros, 
currently using Paul centerpulls which are only marginally better. On 
braking, the Heron wins easily with cantis.

The frame is certainly livelier. Lighter tubing than the Sam as previously 
mentioned and the Sam has a 2TT. Heron rides more like my Romulus, and the 
Sam feels more planted and firmer. The geometry of the Heron I also like 
better, though that's a personal preference. The front end feels like it's 
a lower trail than the Sam, it has that wheel flop turn in that a low trail 
bike exhibits. The Heron also tracks straighter while riding no hands. The 
Sam had a tendency to wander a bit at high speed. It would move a little 
left, then a little right, almost like being billowed by wind. It wasn't a 
shimmy, but nevertheless it was a sensation that I didn't like. So far the 
Heron tracks straight. 

I'll update as I have more time on the Heron. I did really enjoy my Sam and 
if it had cantis I'd still be riding it. FYI, my Sam will be up for sale in 
the coming weeks after I move parts around and get settled into the Heron. 
If you're interested drop me a line. 

Aaron

On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-7, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:

> I'm thinking about the Heron posted earlier to replace my Sam for c daily 
> commuting and other on road bicycle related activities. My only other bike 
> is a Brompton and that's all I have room for. I wasn't aware of Riv or GP 
> when the Heron was current. Where does it fit in to the pantheon? Thoughts 
> on the pros and cons of each model? 

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Belopsky]

Thanks Bob - I saw the Heron site and assumed they would be in the realm of 
Waterford-built-Riv pricing.

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Bob Lovejoy]

I will be no great source of information but a friend and I had a table at 
this last Denver Veloswap and I met Greg Parker, the guy now about to 
produce new Heron frames.  His official website is: 
 http://www.bicycleclassics.com
With the Heron site getting most of the information updates: 
 http://www.heronbicycles.com
His e-mail (from his card) is:  gpvb1 (at) comcast.net

I was only able to talk to Greg for a minute or two but I know he has put a 
lot of work into bringing the Heron name back.  He had two (new Heron!) 
frames there, one large (64cm?) and one smaller (maybe a 54-56cm).  They 
were the first delivered (I believe) from an initial batch of 25 being 
built by Waterford.  I won't state any specs, though some are on the site, 
but I can say they were beautiful frames as you would expect.  They would 
seem much more a road/randonneur/sport touring type of frame, versus full 
touring or the varied uses for the Sam, though anything is always possible. 
 I believe Greg said they would list for $2400 for frame/fork/maybe hs but 
that should be verified.  Greg is a good and knowledgeable guy and I am 
sure he would provide any information possible.

Anyway, just wanted to put it out there about what I had just found 
regarding the new Heron's.  Sorry the info is so incomplete but I had 
stepped away from our table to his and I had to get back more quickly than 
I wanted.

Bob Lovejoy
Denver, CO


On Monday, October 24, 2016 at 5:26:13 AM UTC-6, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Looks like Heron is going through some changing/new model(s) coming soon? 
> I can't find any salient info or pricing on the page..
>

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Belopsky]

Looks like Heron is going through some changing/new model(s) coming soon? I 
can't find any salient info or pricing on the page..

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Alex Wirth- Owner, Yellow Haus Bicycles]

Buy that Bombadill, keep your Sam and sleep with one under your pillow. 🙃

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

My Sam is a 56 cm 1st generation with 1 top tube, v-brakes and 35-37 mm tires. 
It was an ok fit with Noodles and an 8 cm stem. Albas with an 11 cm stem are 
much better.

Jay

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Lungimsam]

Not all Sams are that heavy of a guage.
My old 52 blue Sam was 8-5-8 tt and dt.

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Dave Johnston]

The Silver Heron for sale looks like a Gen 2 Todd Kuzma heron with the oval 
fork blades. The Heron will have lighter gauge tubing than a Sam Hill. The 
Sam hill downtube for instance is 1.1mm -0.8mm.

I find mine rides like a nice smooth road bike, not a tank like people 
describe the Surly LHT. I've never ridden a Sam. I currently have 31mm 
Avocet tires on it, but want to switch to the biggest tires I can fit, but 
something with more durability than a compass tire. Maybe a Pasela.

Jay, if the Heron 59cm is the right size for you I assume you own a 55cm 
Sam? The bikes are sized a bit different, because of the Sam's 6deg top 
tube slope.

-Dave

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Dave Johnston]

I agree with previous posters and am a Heron Touring owner. The Sam is more 
versatile (I am not a Sam owner). Tire max on the Kuzma era Heron touring 
is maybe 36mm actual, so some 38 labeled tires (soma c-line for instance) 
will fit and some might not. Fenders will fit any tire that fits in between 
the chain stays.

One advantage is the Herons came in 2cm size increments. I also prefer 
cantis to long reach sidepulls, but some hate cantis.

-Dave J

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RE: [RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[olofstroh]

Just to add some as a former owner of a Heron Touring: 
I sold it last year for financial reasons which was the right thing to do under 
my present circumstances (I still have four bikes) but miss it, a very nice and 
useful bike with character. It was bought at the same time Riv launched the 
Atlantis and my 61 cm had identical geometry to the first generation Atlantis. 
The main difference was clearance for tires, my Heron used 700Cx35 mm Paselas 
with fenders, it might or might not take 38 mm tires with fenders, but not 
bigger. I went on camping tours, heavily loaded with those and found it 
appropriate. I also used it as a long-distance commuter and found it very good 
for that, some days I used my custom Riv (a Rambouillet clone bought before the 
Rams), commuting time was the same. The more narrow chain stays permitted a 
more narrow Q which I saw as an advantage.

In short: a very, very versatile bike, good for loaded touring, good for 
commuting, good in town. No racer but not bad at all if you wanted a brisk pace 
on the road for the pleasure of it. I think it can do anything an AHH, Sam or 
Atlantis can do as long as you don´t need fat tires.

Olof Stroh
Uppsala Sweden

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

What's driving this is:

1. I live in Tel Aviv, which is a great place to live but very far from the 
mostly US based market for Riv and Rivish bicycles and related goods.
 
2. My sister in law is coming for a visit in a few months and she agreed to 
carry a bike for me in her checked luggage. The hundred or so bucks that would 
cost is a drop in the bucket compared to the shipping, customs and fees I would 
otherwise be hit with.

3. There have been several nice bikes offered for sales lately in my size (59 
cm).

So, a somewhat rare oppotunity to buy a new Riv or Rivish bike, which is why I 
have been thinking about it and following the FS posts.

But,


4. I live in a 1200 square foot apartment and don't have room for another bike.

QED

Thanks for listening.

Jay

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Jay in Tel Aviv]

Thanks guys. That's pretty clear.

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[drew]

i remember someone who had one saying that the heron touring is similar to 
an AHH with less tire clearance.  i find myself tempted by them every time 
i see one pop up, but i dont need a bike with less tire clearance. i agree 
with bill though. youve got a bike that can do almost anything. why trade 
for a more limiting model?

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[RBW] Re: Sam Hillborne vs Heron Touring ... GO

[Bill Lindsay]

I can't think of a single thing a Heron would do that a Sam would not do. 
 Replacing a Sam with a Heron seems like a lateral move at best.  What itch 
are you scratching?  Are you just bored with your Sam and want something 
new?  Is your Sam the wrong size?  Personally I would take a Samuel 
Hillborne over a Heron touring six days a week and twice on Sunday.  I 
would consider the Heron more "traditional" looking, and if you wanted to 
be unkind about "traditional" you'd call it "dated".  Now don't get me 
wrong, I love traditional looking bikes and own a couple of them.  Also I 
think the Heron touring is definitely a nice bike.  I would not mind having 
a Heron touring in my stable as an N+1 in addition to a Sam, enabling me to 
do two different kinds of builds on the two bikes, but I can't think of any 
reasons why I would want to replace my Sam with a Heron touring.  

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Friday, October 21, 2016 at 10:07:31 AM UTC-7, Jay in Tel Aviv wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about the Heron posted earlier to replace my Sam for c daily 
> commuting and other on road bicycle related activities. My only other bike 
> is a Brompton and that's all I have room for. I wasn't aware of Riv or GP 
> when the Heron was current. Where does it fit in to the pantheon? Thoughts 
> on the pros and cons of each model? 

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