[RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Jay]

I ended up sticking with drop bars, but making some changes after a good 
conversation with my chiro and a few rides on the three bikes where I paid 
a lot of attention to where I had pain, and my posture on those rides.

On the Roadini and Salsa, I was using 42cm bars (at the hoods hoods) with 
12 degrees of flare.  First time I went up from 40cm.  In previous fittings 
I was told I can run a 38cm as I have narrow shoulders.  It's a trend these 
days to run wider, I tried it, but it really backfired given my 
pre-existing neck/shoulder issue.  When on the hoods my arms were not a 
straight line from my body, they were out a bit, and this was a minor 
(major at times) pain.  I replaced those bars, have ridden each bike once 
(1.5-2.5 hours) and it was instantly noticeable.  Pain gone.  Both of those 
bikes have the bars upright (tops level with saddle, hoods higher) and not 
stretched out.  Road bike has 40cm bars, but the reach is long and drop is 
2.5cm below saddle (making the drops unreachable for me).  That's being 
rectified next.

I may try swept back one day, but for now I do love drop bars and the 
varied hand positions, and it was much cheaper to replace two bars and 
re-use the table (success on both counts).

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 9:28:41 PM UTC-4 Jay wrote:

> I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it 
> wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos 
> of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more 
> comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) 
> position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this 
> be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't 
> get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be 
> better?
>
> I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't 
> thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly. 
>  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.
>
> *Quick background*
> - been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)
> - started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; 
> tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't 
> like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; 
> have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 
> 'gravel' bikes/riding
> - I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and 
> this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position 
> on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength 
> training; have had numerous bike fits
> - I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom 
> made and really does fit like a glove, for road)
> - I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in 
> particular when roads are not busy, or on trails, gravel roads, etc.
>
> On a good day (75% of the time), I can ride any of these bikes and during 
> the ride I feel pretty good (little to no pain), maybe a bit of pain after 
> (could be neck/shoulders, but anywhere else really), and after stretching I 
> feel great in a 1/2 to full day.  I ride 4-5x a week, workout 1-2 times 
> spring-fall and more in the winter.  
>
> But at least once a week, and maybe twice, I'll be riding, sometimes tired 
> as it's after work, and within an hour I'm running low on energy and 
> probably start to develop a bad posture on the bike, over-using my arms 
> which causes problems in my neck and shoulders, leading to upper body 
> aches/pains (while riding, and after).  Takes a lot of stretching and 
> awareness to reset.  *This is what I'm trying to resolve (move from 75% 
> to 99%)*
>
> My guess is that even with a bike like the Roadini or Salsa, with bars 
> about level with the saddle, and even with a professional fitting on each, 
> when I want to ride but I'm lacking energy, it goes poorly.  But is that 
> because these bikes are "kind of" aggressive (when compared to say a spine 
> angle closer to 70% and swept back bars)?  Or is it simply a combination of 
> age, history of some 'issues', low on energy and thus bad posture kicks in, 
> and would any bike be a joy to ride, or should I just go for a walk on 
> those days!?
>
> I would love to hear from those who ride both drop bars and also swept 
> back (or similar) in a way more relaxed geometry, or those who transitioned 
> to mainly this style, because it almost fully resolved your issues, if 
> they're anyway similar to mine.  *On a day when you're not feeling it, 
> but you have to commute or just love to ride, do you leave the drop bar 
> bike in the garage and hop on your more relaxed bike, and thus avoid most 
> of the issues you would have had on the other (slightly more aggressive) 
> bike?*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[David Ross]

I’m a similar rider in terms of age and issues. I just sold my last drop
bar bike and the bars were very neutral and slightly above the saddle. I
absolutely loved that bike but I just can’t ride drops at this point. All
of my bikes now have swept bars and it makes a huge difference. I’m riding
deep sweeps on all my bikes at this point with the bars anywhere from 1-3
inches above the saddle. The reason this works well for me is that I’m able
to move my hands up and down the bars depending on terrain and also move my
hands to stretch my back and prevent pain.

On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 9:58 AM Jason Noonievut 
wrote:

> Thanks for the responses!  Keep’em coming
>
> Tim had some good questions, I’ve tried to answer these below:
>
> “…off the bike?”
> - I have a desk job but I use a sit / stand desk.  Years ago when I got
> this, it was a revelation, and really helped a much worse than now, neck;
> however, I notice my legs get tired when I’m standing, and again, if I go
> for a ride after work, and I’ve been sitting/standing 50-50, my tired legs,
> I believe contribute to feeling sluggish on the bike, and perhaps a poor
> posture as I have limited power
> - I walk a lot, stretch, and practice good posture off the bike
>
>
> I thought I would add that I visit my chiropractor for an adjustment every
> three weeks. The days shortly after, I am more comfortable on the bike.
> For example, two days after my last adjustment I did a road ride with my
> friend, 85km with wind and even snow, I felt great. A few days ago I did a
> 60km ride with my friend on a perfect day with very little wind, and was
> really sore.  I have a chiro appointment tonight.  As I get close to the
> end of that three weeks, I can feel more pain and thus attribute what’s
> happening to the spine in the three weeks in between adjustments.  This is
> the closest I have to a good diagnosis!
>
> Jason
>
> On May 9, 2024, at 7:50 AM, Tim Bantham  wrote:
>
> 
>
> There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what you
> are asking. For reference I ride a drop bar AHH, a drop bar Sam and a
> Billie bar'd Platy. I'm an older rider and I too suffer some aches and
> pains while riding. Nothing debilitating but it is noticeable. Sometimes
> more than others. Like you I experience some aches in my C spine between
> the shoulder blades. This is from holding my head in a position to see the
> road in front of me. I am also seated at a computer most of the day while
> working which can be harmful to your posture if you aren't vigilant.
>
>  I am not so certain your pain is related to not maintaining a good
> posture on the bike while riding. I'm not a medical professional and I
> don't think you would come here for medical advice. At least I hope not
> LOL!
>
> I would want to know what you are doing off the bike. You didn't say what
> you did for work but if are spending your days sitting at a desk and then
> you hop on your bike to go ride. Your body is in a hunched position all day
> long and then you are in the same position while you pedal. If that were
> the case I could see how some aches and pains could crop up.
>
> Riding an upright style bike on days where you aren't feeling it may help
> but I'd be more inclined to shorten your ride or not ride at all. Also pay
> attention to your posture off the bike. Having awareness of your posture
> during your day to day life will be more beneficial then only making those
> adjustments while riding.
> On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 12:56:14 AM UTC-4 krhe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> @Jay,
>>
>> I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years
>> ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to
>> ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over.
>>
>> Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a
>> bicycle that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four
>> different bicycles.
>>
>> In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L"
>> bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I
>> concluded that the 59cm size was not working for me. It was too large. I
>> sold it. I found and bought a 52cm Clem as a "Demo" at RBW headquarters
>> last November.
>>
>> Since then, I have adapted very well in riding the 52cm Clem. It fits me
>> a lot better than the 59cm. I am very happy with it. I have the Nitto Bosco
>> 58cm handlebars. These bars I really love for an upright riding position. I
>> have zero weight bearing down on them. All my weight is on the seat and
>> back tire. When I come home from my rides, I feel my posture is a lot
>> straighter, than before.
>>
>> I ride mostly pavement on the nearby trails near where I live.
>> Occasionally, I will go off road, when the feeling for adventure strikes me.
>>
>> The only problem I have is a personal issue in discomfort with the loss
>> of subcutaneous fat on my bum riding my saddle at 69 years old. I am
>> 

[RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Bill Lindsay]

The symptoms the OP complains about are low energy and bad posture because 
of low energy.  

The three suggestions I'll toss into the hopper are: 1. there may be issues 
with your diet, 2. maybe 5x a week is too much.  Maybe limit it to 3x a 
week strictly and see what that does.  Finally 3. Maybe you go too hard. 
 Consider using an HRM and keep it strictly in a mellow zone and see if you 
learn something about that relationship with your energy level and comfort 
level.  

Me personally, if I'm "not feeling it" I blame it on diet 40% of the time, 
my own mental health 40% of the time, and a need for a spinal adjustment 
20% of the time.  Since those three causes are orthogonal, it can be all 
three at once, and those are really bad days.  On a day where my back is 
jacked, and I've been eating crappy, and I'm in a pit of depression, there 
is no handlebar that will snap me out of that triple-whammy.

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-7 Jay wrote:

> I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it 
> wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos 
> of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more 
> comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) 
> position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this 
> be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't 
> get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be 
> better?
>
> I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't 
> thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly. 
>  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.
>
> *Quick background*
> - been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)
> - started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; 
> tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't 
> like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; 
> have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 
> 'gravel' bikes/riding
> - I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and 
> this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position 
> on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength 
> training; have had numerous bike fits
> - I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom 
> made and really does fit like a glove, for road)
> - I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in 
> particular when roads are not busy, or on trails, gravel roads, etc.
>
> On a good day (75% of the time), I can ride any of these bikes and during 
> the ride I feel pretty good (little to no pain), maybe a bit of pain after 
> (could be neck/shoulders, but anywhere else really), and after stretching I 
> feel great in a 1/2 to full day.  I ride 4-5x a week, workout 1-2 times 
> spring-fall and more in the winter.  
>
> But at least once a week, and maybe twice, I'll be riding, sometimes tired 
> as it's after work, and within an hour I'm running low on energy and 
> probably start to develop a bad posture on the bike, over-using my arms 
> which causes problems in my neck and shoulders, leading to upper body 
> aches/pains (while riding, and after).  Takes a lot of stretching and 
> awareness to reset.  *This is what I'm trying to resolve (move from 75% 
> to 99%)*
>
> My guess is that even with a bike like the Roadini or Salsa, with bars 
> about level with the saddle, and even with a professional fitting on each, 
> when I want to ride but I'm lacking energy, it goes poorly.  But is that 
> because these bikes are "kind of" aggressive (when compared to say a spine 
> angle closer to 70% and swept back bars)?  Or is it simply a combination of 
> age, history of some 'issues', low on energy and thus bad posture kicks in, 
> and would any bike be a joy to ride, or should I just go for a walk on 
> those days!?
>
> I would love to hear from those who ride both drop bars and also swept 
> back (or similar) in a way more relaxed geometry, or those who transitioned 
> to mainly this style, because it almost fully resolved your issues, if 
> they're anyway similar to mine.  *On a day when you're not feeling it, 
> but you have to commute or just love to ride, do you leave the drop bar 
> bike in the garage and hop on your more relaxed bike, and thus avoid most 
> of the issues you would have had on the other (slightly more aggressive) 
> bike?*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Matthew Rebmann]

***Reposting with a correction***
A few things to keep in mind:

-Riding in an upright position will recruit different muscles in your legs 
and butt, you may feel it to be a bit harder to ride fast in this position. 
You will also catch more wind which can slow you down a bit. 
-You should keep in mind the steering axis. If your stem is too short, you 
can create overly "whippy" steering. Making sure your stem is long enough 
will resolve that issue. 
-You'll also likely want a wider saddle.

I have a "drop bar" Surly Midnight Special. It's a great bike but I'm not 
currently in love with the position even though my handlebars are mounted 
higher than my seat. I find that my "golfers elbow" is aggravated by the 
hand position and  I rarely use the drops. I'm also not a racer, I don't 
enjoy super aggressive position in which is why I have my bars mounted 
higher than my saddle. I acquired a Long Haul Trucker that is a small for 
me if I built it with drop bars (albatross bars,) but it's absolutely 
perfect as a swept back build. I'm in a fully upright position on it and I 
use it as my sometimes work-commuter, bop around town bike. I feel I have 
the best viewing angle for checking my surroundings on this bike. I 
recently completed a build of a Velo Orange Polyvalent with their Wave 
bars. I'd say it's right in the middle of a fully upright and neutral drop 
bar position (not dissimilar to my angle on the Midnight Special.) It's 
currently my absolute favorite ride. 

If you have a bike you don't mind spending money to convert, I highly 
recommend it. As Igor from Velo Orange says "change your bars, change your 
life." He highly advocates for switching things up. If you have the dough 
to spend on a new bike built this way, I think the Platypus or the Clem-L 
are calling your name somewhere in the distance...

Midnight Special photo is a little outdated. I no longer have racks on it, 
just a saddle bag support. Considering putting flat bars on it.


Long haul
Polyvalent

On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 2:00:33 PM UTC-4 Lucky wrote:

> Fellow older person here. I have avoided owning a “fast bike” for years 
> due to drops killin’ me, but I recently acquired this sporty XO-1 and the 
> Albatross bar is perfect for it! I might not actually be fast but I *feel* 
> fast now (compared to my racked and fat-tired Atlantis) so that’s really 
> what matters. Albatross is the GOAT. 
> [image: image0.jpeg]
>
> On May 9, 2024, at 09:50, Wesley  wrote:
>
> Hi Jay,
>
> I'll second what's been said here and by Rivendell: the Albatross is the 
> swept-back bar that is least radical / closest to a drop bar.
>
> I first put an Albatross bar on a bike of mine in 2007 and have kept them 
> on at least one bike ever since. Unlike the other swept-back bars that Riv 
> sells, they have a great hand position that is slightly forward of the stem 
> clamp (demonstrated here): 
>
> 
>
>
> It's comfy for long hours on the bike. Like you, I find flat bars 
> uncomfortable (they pain my wrists). With Albatross bars, my wrist position 
> feels neutral and natural, a lot like on the lever tops on drop bars. The 
> Albatross bar is on my everyday bike, with the drop bar road bike being 
> used only when I want a lighter bike.
> -Wes 
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 6:28:41 PM UTC-7 Jay wrote:
>
>> I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it 
>> wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos 
>> of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more 
>> comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) 
>> position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this 
>> be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't 
>> get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be 
>> better?
>>
>> I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't 
>> thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly. 
>>  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.
>>
>> *Quick background*
>> - been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)
>> - started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; 
>> tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't 
>> like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; 
>> have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 
>> 'gravel' bikes/riding
>> - I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and 
>> this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position 
>> on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength 
>> training; have had numerous bike fits
>> - I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom 
>> made and really does fit like a glove, for road)
>> - I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in 
>> particular when roads are not busy, or on 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Matthew Rebmann]

A few things to keep in mind:

-Riding in an upright position will recruit different muscles in your legs 
and butt, you may feel it to be a bit harder to ride fast in this position. 
You will also catch more wind which can slow you down a bit. 
-You should keep in mind the steering axis. If your stem is too short, you 
can create overly "whippy" steering. Making sure your stem is long enough 
will resolve that issue. 
-You'll also likely want a wider saddle.

I have a "drop bar" Surly Midnight Special. It's a great bike but I'm not 
currently in love with the position even though my handlebars are mounted 
higher than my seat. I find that my "golfers elbow" is aggravated by the 
hand position and  I rarely use the drops. I'm also not a racer, I don't 
enjoy super aggressive position in which is why I have my bars mounted 
higher than my saddle. I acquired a Long Haul Trucker that is a small for 
me if I built it with drop bars (albatross bars,) but it's absolutely 
perfect as a swept back build. I'm in a fully upright position on it and I 
use it as my sometimes work-commuter, bop around town bike. I feel I have 
the best viewing angle for checking my surroundings on this bike. I 
recently completed a build of a Velo Orange Polyvalent with their Wave 
bars. I'd say it's right in the middle of a fully upright and neutral drop 
bar position (not dissimilar to my angle on the Midnight Special.) It's 
currently my absolute favorite ride. 

If you have a bike you don't mind spending money to convert, I highly 
recommend it. As Igor from Velo Orange says "change your bars, change your 
life." He highly advocates for switching things up. If you have the dough 
to spend on a new bike built this way, I think the Platypus or the Clem-L 
are calling your name somewhere in the distance...

Midnight Special photo is a little outdated. I no longer have racks on it, 
just a saddle bag support. Considering putting flat bars on it.

Long haul
Polyvalent

On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 12:04:10 PM UTC-4 DavidP wrote:

> If you don't have a cruiser-y / townie type bike for more laid back or 
> utilitarian rides, and you have the space and ability to have another bike 
> then I'd definitely recommend an additional bike for this. Though if you 
> have a couple of aggressive drop bar bikes it's certainly possible to 
> convert one for this use.
>
> Albatross and Billie bars are versatile because they can be setup to offer 
> a range of back angle positions depending on where you place your hands. 
>  I've found that using a stem 30-40mm longer than my drop bar stem puts the 
> grips of the Albatross bar in a more upright position than the tops of the 
> drop bar, and moving my hands up to the bends feels like riding on the 
> hoods. You can get even lower by moving into the hooks of the Albatross bar 
> and bending your elbows. 
>
> Tosco bars (which I have on my Platypus) can do similar things but are 
> just a bit less roadish.
>
> On most sweptback bars my primary cruising position is usually between the 
> grips and the bends with the heel of the my hand resting on the grips, the 
> palm of my hand over the brake lever clamp (a low profile clamp is good 
> here), and a couple of fingers resting on/forward of the brake lever body.
>
> You asked if sweptback bars might be good for riding 1-2 hours. They 
> certainly are, but with the range of positions they offer they are also 
> good for rides even longer than that!
>
> -Dave
>
>
>
>
>
> On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 9:58:54 AM UTC-4 Jay wrote:
>
>> Thanks for the responses!  Keep’em coming
>>
>> Tim had some good questions, I’ve tried to answer these below:
>>
>> “…off the bike?”
>> - I have a desk job but I use a sit / stand desk.  Years ago when I got 
>> this, it was a revelation, and really helped a much worse than now, neck; 
>> however, I notice my legs get tired when I’m standing, and again, if I go 
>> for a ride after work, and I’ve been sitting/standing 50-50, my tired legs, 
>> I believe contribute to feeling sluggish on the bike, and perhaps a poor 
>> posture as I have limited power
>> - I walk a lot, stretch, and practice good posture off the bike
>>
>>
>> I thought I would add that I visit my chiropractor for an adjustment 
>> every three weeks. The days shortly after, I am more comfortable on the 
>> bike.  For example, two days after my last adjustment I did a road ride 
>> with my friend, 85km with wind and even snow, I felt great. A few days ago 
>> I did a 60km ride with my friend on a perfect day with very little wind, 
>> and was really sore.  I have a chiro appointment tonight.  As I get close 
>> to the end of that three weeks, I can feel more pain and thus attribute 
>> what’s happening to the spine in the three weeks in between adjustments. 
>>  This is the closest I have to a good diagnosis!
>>
>> Jason
>>
>> On May 9, 2024, at 7:50 AM, Tim Bantham  wrote:
>>
>> 
>>
>> There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what 
>> you 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[DavidP]

If you don't have a cruiser-y / townie type bike for more laid back or 
utilitarian rides, and you have the space and ability to have another bike 
then I'd definitely recommend an additional bike for this. Though if you 
have a couple of aggressive drop bar bikes it's certainly possible to 
convert one for this use.

Albatross and Billie bars are versatile because they can be setup to offer 
a range of back angle positions depending on where you place your hands. 
 I've found that using a stem 30-40mm longer than my drop bar stem puts the 
grips of the Albatross bar in a more upright position than the tops of the 
drop bar, and moving my hands up to the bends feels like riding on the 
hoods. You can get even lower by moving into the hooks of the Albatross bar 
and bending your elbows. 

Tosco bars (which I have on my Platypus) can do similar things but are just 
a bit less roadish.

On most sweptback bars my primary cruising position is usually between the 
grips and the bends with the heel of the my hand resting on the grips, the 
palm of my hand over the brake lever clamp (a low profile clamp is good 
here), and a couple of fingers resting on/forward of the brake lever body.

You asked if sweptback bars might be good for riding 1-2 hours. They 
certainly are, but with the range of positions they offer they are also 
good for rides even longer than that!

-Dave





On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 9:58:54 AM UTC-4 Jay wrote:

> Thanks for the responses!  Keep’em coming
>
> Tim had some good questions, I’ve tried to answer these below:
>
> “…off the bike?”
> - I have a desk job but I use a sit / stand desk.  Years ago when I got 
> this, it was a revelation, and really helped a much worse than now, neck; 
> however, I notice my legs get tired when I’m standing, and again, if I go 
> for a ride after work, and I’ve been sitting/standing 50-50, my tired legs, 
> I believe contribute to feeling sluggish on the bike, and perhaps a poor 
> posture as I have limited power
> - I walk a lot, stretch, and practice good posture off the bike
>
>
> I thought I would add that I visit my chiropractor for an adjustment every 
> three weeks. The days shortly after, I am more comfortable on the bike. 
>  For example, two days after my last adjustment I did a road ride with my 
> friend, 85km with wind and even snow, I felt great. A few days ago I did a 
> 60km ride with my friend on a perfect day with very little wind, and was 
> really sore.  I have a chiro appointment tonight.  As I get close to the 
> end of that three weeks, I can feel more pain and thus attribute what’s 
> happening to the spine in the three weeks in between adjustments.  This is 
> the closest I have to a good diagnosis!
>
> Jason
>
> On May 9, 2024, at 7:50 AM, Tim Bantham  wrote:
>
> 
>
> There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what you 
> are asking. For reference I ride a drop bar AHH, a drop bar Sam and a 
> Billie bar'd Platy. I'm an older rider and I too suffer some aches and 
> pains while riding. Nothing debilitating but it is noticeable. Sometimes 
> more than others. Like you I experience some aches in my C spine between 
> the shoulder blades. This is from holding my head in a position to see the 
> road in front of me. I am also seated at a computer most of the day while 
> working which can be harmful to your posture if you aren't vigilant. 
>
>  I am not so certain your pain is related to not maintaining a good 
> posture on the bike while riding. I'm not a medical professional and I 
> don't think you would come here for medical advice. At least I hope not 
> LOL! 
>
> I would want to know what you are doing off the bike. You didn't say what 
> you did for work but if are spending your days sitting at a desk and then 
> you hop on your bike to go ride. Your body is in a hunched position all day 
> long and then you are in the same position while you pedal. If that were 
> the case I could see how some aches and pains could crop up. 
>
> Riding an upright style bike on days where you aren't feeling it may help 
> but I'd be more inclined to shorten your ride or not ride at all. Also pay 
> attention to your posture off the bike. Having awareness of your posture 
> during your day to day life will be more beneficial then only making those 
> adjustments while riding. 
> On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 12:56:14 AM UTC-4 krhe...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> @Jay,
>>
>> I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years 
>> ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to 
>> ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over. 
>>
>> Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a 
>> bicycle that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four 
>> different bicycles. 
>>
>> In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L" 
>> bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I 
>> concluded that 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Jason Noonievut]

Thanks for the responses!  Keep’em comingTim had some good questions, I’ve tried to answer these below:“…off the bike?”- I have a desk job but I use a sit / stand desk.  Years ago when I got this, it was a revelation, and really helped a much worse than now, neck; however, I notice my legs get tired when I’m standing, and again, if I go for a ride after work, and I’ve been sitting/standing 50-50, my tired legs, I believe contribute to feeling sluggish on the bike, and perhaps a poor posture as I have limited power- I walk a lot, stretch, and practice good posture off the bikeI thought I would add that I visit my chiropractor for an adjustment every three weeks. The days shortly after, I am more comfortable on the bike.  For example, two days after my last adjustment I did a road ride with my friend, 85km with wind and even snow, I felt great. A few days ago I did a 60km ride with my friend on a perfect day with very little wind, and was really sore.  I have a chiro appointment tonight.  As I get close to the end of that three weeks, I can feel more pain and thus attribute what’s happening to the spine in the three weeks in between adjustments.  This is the closest I have to a good diagnosis!JasonOn May 9, 2024, at 7:50 AM, Tim Bantham  wrote:There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what you are asking. For reference I ride a drop bar AHH, a drop bar Sam and a Billie bar'd Platy. I'm an older rider and I too suffer some aches and pains while riding. Nothing debilitating but it is noticeable. Sometimes more than others. Like you I experience some aches in my C spine between the shoulder blades. This is from holding my head in a position to see the road in front of me. I am also seated at a computer most of the day while working which can be harmful to your posture if you aren't vigilant.  I am not so certain your pain is related to not maintaining a good posture on the bike while riding. I'm not a medical professional and I don't think you would come here for medical advice. At least I hope not LOL! I would want to know what you are doing off the bike. You didn't say what you did for work but if are spending your days sitting at a desk and then you hop on your bike to go ride. Your body is in a hunched position all day long and then you are in the same position while you pedal. If that were the case I could see how some aches and pains could crop up. Riding an upright style bike on days where you aren't feeling it may help but I'd be more inclined to shorten your ride or not ride at all. Also pay attention to your posture off the bike. Having awareness of your posture during your day to day life will be more beneficial then only making those adjustments while riding. On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 12:56:14 AM UTC-4 krhe...@gmail.com wrote:@Jay,I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over. Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a bicycle that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four different bicycles. In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L" bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I concluded that the 59cm size was not working for me. It was too large. I sold it. I found and bought a 52cm Clem as a "Demo" at RBW headquarters last November.  Since then, I have adapted very well in riding the 52cm Clem. It fits me a lot better than the 59cm. I am very happy with it. I have the Nitto Bosco 58cm handlebars. These bars I really love for an upright riding position. I have zero weight bearing down on them. All my weight is on the seat and back tire. When I come home from my rides, I feel my posture is a lot straighter, than before. I ride mostly pavement on the nearby trails near where I live. Occasionally, I will go off road, when the feeling for adventure strikes me.The only problem I have is a personal issue in discomfort with the 
loss of subcutaneous fat on my bum riding my saddle at 69 years old. I am nearing a resolution with optimism. Kim Hetzel. As one grows older, the handlebars get higher and the gears get lower.On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 8:15:45 PM UTC-7 Richard Rose wrote:What Doug said, almost exactly x2.Long time Roadie here but transitioned to MTB about 15 years ago - now 69. Never had serious issues with properly fit road bike. But after a lot of MTB riding it never felt right again. However, I started having pretty serious hand/wrist issues with straight MTB bars. Bought my Clem to have something comfortable to ride when not mountain biking. Instantly comfortable for all rides/surfaces and for up to six+ hours. So I got a Gus to have a swept back MTB. Both are superbly comfortable. Now I am back riding road/gravel when I do not want to drive to the trail. But when I do drive to the trail it’s more fun than 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Tim Bantham]

There is a lot to unpack here but I think I get the basic gist of what you 
are asking. For reference I ride a drop bar AHH, a drop bar Sam and a 
Billie bar'd Platy. I'm an older rider and I too suffer some aches and 
pains while riding. Nothing debilitating but it is noticeable. Sometimes 
more than others. Like you I experience some aches in my C spine between 
the shoulder blades. This is from holding my head in a position to see the 
road in front of me. I am also seated at a computer most of the day while 
working which can be harmful to your posture if you aren't vigilant. 

 I am not so certain your pain is related to not maintaining a good posture 
on the bike while riding. I'm not a medical professional and I don't think 
you would come here for medical advice. At least I hope not LOL! 

I would want to know what you are doing off the bike. You didn't say what 
you did for work but if are spending your days sitting at a desk and then 
you hop on your bike to go ride. Your body is in a hunched position all day 
long and then you are in the same position while you pedal. If that were 
the case I could see how some aches and pains could crop up. 

Riding an upright style bike on days where you aren't feeling it may help 
but I'd be more inclined to shorten your ride or not ride at all. Also pay 
attention to your posture off the bike. Having awareness of your posture 
during your day to day life will be more beneficial then only making those 
adjustments while riding. 
On Thursday, May 9, 2024 at 12:56:14 AM UTC-4 krhe...@gmail.com wrote:

> @Jay,
>
> I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years 
> ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to 
> ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over. 
>
> Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a bicycle 
> that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four different 
> bicycles. 
>
> In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L" 
> bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I 
> concluded that the 59cm size was not working for me. It was too large. I 
> sold it. I found and bought a 52cm Clem as a "Demo" at RBW headquarters 
> last November.  
>
> Since then, I have adapted very well in riding the 52cm Clem. It fits me a 
> lot better than the 59cm. I am very happy with it. I have the Nitto Bosco 
> 58cm handlebars. These bars I really love for an upright riding position. I 
> have zero weight bearing down on them. All my weight is on the seat and 
> back tire. When I come home from my rides, I feel my posture is a lot 
> straighter, than before. 
>
> I ride mostly pavement on the nearby trails near where I live. 
> Occasionally, I will go off road, when the feeling for adventure strikes me.
>
> The only problem I have is a personal issue in discomfort with the loss of 
> subcutaneous fat on my bum riding my saddle at 69 years old. I am nearing a 
> resolution with optimism. 
>
> Kim Hetzel. 
>
> As one grows older, the handlebars get higher and the gears get lower.
>
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 8:15:45 PM UTC-7 Richard Rose wrote:
>
>> What Doug said, almost exactly x2.
>> Long time Roadie here but transitioned to MTB about 15 years ago - now 
>> 69. Never had serious issues with properly fit road bike. But after a lot 
>> of MTB riding it never felt right again. However, I started having pretty 
>> serious hand/wrist issues with straight MTB bars. Bought my Clem to have 
>> something comfortable to ride when not mountain biking. Instantly 
>> comfortable for all rides/surfaces and for up to six+ hours. So I got a Gus 
>> to have a swept back MTB. Both are superbly comfortable. Now I am back 
>> riding road/gravel when I do not want to drive to the trail. But when I do 
>> drive to the trail it’s more fun than ever.
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On May 8, 2024, at 9:45 PM, Doug H.  wrote:
>>
>> When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had 
>> ridden mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder 
>> and neck pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright 
>> riding position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I 
>> could ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than 
>> with a "road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars 
>> were up nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or 
>> shoulder pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. 
>> Swept back bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for 
>> me but I don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my 
>> experience and preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture 
>> is being able to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was 
>> a revelation for me and has transformed my riding experience.
>>
>> Doug
>>
>> On Wednesday, 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Kim H.]

@Jay,

I have been a roadie for 53 years. I retired my road bike sixteen years 
ago. I was growing old. I became tired of riding in the drops. I wanted to 
ride upright. My posture in my neck and shoulders were hunched over. 

Over the many years, it became a struggle with me trying to find a bicycle 
that I could fall in love with again. I went through about four different 
bicycles. 

In the fall of 2022, I purchased my first Rivendell Clem Smith Jr. "L" 
bicycle. It was a 59cm. Over the course of a little over a year, I 
concluded that the 59cm size was not working for me. It was too large. I 
sold it. I found and bought a 52cm Clem as a "Demo" at RBW headquarters 
last November.  

Since then, I have adapted very well in riding the 52cm Clem. It fits me a 
lot better than the 59cm. I am very happy with it. I have the Nitto Bosco 
58cm handlebars. These bars I really love for an upright riding position. I 
have zero weight bearing down on them. All my weight is on the seat and 
back tire. When I come home from my rides, I feel my posture is a lot 
straighter, than before. 

I ride mostly pavement on the nearby trails near where I live. 
Occasionally, I will go off road, when the feeling for adventure strikes me.

The only problem I have is a personal issue in discomfort with the loss of 
subcutaneous fat on my bum riding my saddle at 69 years old. I am nearing a 
resolution with optimism. 

Kim Hetzel. 

As one grows older, the handlebars get higher and the gears get lower.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 8:15:45 PM UTC-7 Richard Rose wrote:

> What Doug said, almost exactly x2.
> Long time Roadie here but transitioned to MTB about 15 years ago - now 69. 
> Never had serious issues with properly fit road bike. But after a lot of 
> MTB riding it never felt right again. However, I started having pretty 
> serious hand/wrist issues with straight MTB bars. Bought my Clem to have 
> something comfortable to ride when not mountain biking. Instantly 
> comfortable for all rides/surfaces and for up to six+ hours. So I got a Gus 
> to have a swept back MTB. Both are superbly comfortable. Now I am back 
> riding road/gravel when I do not want to drive to the trail. But when I do 
> drive to the trail it’s more fun than ever.
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On May 8, 2024, at 9:45 PM, Doug H.  wrote:
>
> When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had 
> ridden mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder 
> and neck pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright 
> riding position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I 
> could ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than 
> with a "road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars 
> were up nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or 
> shoulder pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. 
> Swept back bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for 
> me but I don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my 
> experience and preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture 
> is being able to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was 
> a revelation for me and has transformed my riding experience.
>
> Doug
>
> On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 9:28:41 PM UTC-4 Jay wrote:
>
>> I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it 
>> wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos 
>> of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more 
>> comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) 
>> position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this 
>> be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't 
>> get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be 
>> better?
>>
>> I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't 
>> thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly. 
>>  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.
>>
>> *Quick background*
>> - been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)
>> - started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; 
>> tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't 
>> like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; 
>> have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 
>> 'gravel' bikes/riding
>> - I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and 
>> this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position 
>> on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength 
>> training; have had numerous bike fits
>> - I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom 
>> made and really does fit like a glove, for road)
>> - I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Richard Rose]

What Doug said, almost exactly x2.Long time Roadie here but transitioned to MTB about 15 years ago - now 69. Never had serious issues with properly fit road bike. But after a lot of MTB riding it never felt right again. However, I started having pretty serious hand/wrist issues with straight MTB bars. Bought my Clem to have something comfortable to ride when not mountain biking. Instantly comfortable for all rides/surfaces and for up to six+ hours. So I got a Gus to have a swept back MTB. Both are superbly comfortable. Now I am back riding road/gravel when I do not want to drive to the trail. But when I do drive to the trail it’s more fun than ever.Sent from my iPhoneOn May 8, 2024, at 9:45 PM, Doug H.  wrote:When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had ridden mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder and neck pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright riding position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I could ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than with a "road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars were up nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or shoulder pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. Swept back bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for me but I don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my experience and preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture is being able to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was a revelation for me and has transformed my riding experience.DougOn Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 9:28:41 PM UTC-4 Jay wrote:I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be better?I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly.  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.Quick background- been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)- started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 'gravel' bikes/riding- I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength training; have had numerous bike fits- I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom made and really does fit like a glove, for road)- I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in particular when roads are not busy, or on trails, gravel roads, etc.On a good day (75% of the time), I can ride any of these bikes and during the ride I feel pretty good (little to no pain), maybe a bit of pain after (could be neck/shoulders, but anywhere else really), and after stretching I feel great in a 1/2 to full day.  I ride 4-5x a week, workout 1-2 times spring-fall and more in the winter.  But at least once a week, and maybe twice, I'll be riding, sometimes tired as it's after work, and within an hour I'm running low on energy and probably start to develop a bad posture on the bike, over-using my arms which causes problems in my neck and shoulders, leading to upper body aches/pains (while riding, and after).  Takes a lot of stretching and awareness to reset.  This is what I'm trying to resolve (move from 75% to 99%)My guess is that even with a bike like the Roadini or Salsa, with bars about level with the saddle, and even with a professional fitting on each, when I want to ride but I'm lacking energy, it goes poorly.  But is that because these bikes are "kind of" aggressive (when compared to say a spine angle closer to 70% and swept back bars)?  Or is it simply a combination of age, history of some 'issues', low on energy and thus bad posture kicks in, and would any bike be a joy to ride, or should I just go for a walk on those days!?I would love to hear from those who ride both drop bars and also swept back (or similar) in a way more relaxed geometry, or those who transitioned to mainly this style, because it almost fully resolved your issues, if they're anyway similar to mine.  On a day when you're not feeling it, but you have to commute or just love to ride, do you leave the drop bar bike in the garage and hop on your 

[RBW] Re: Upright / Relaxed / Swept-Back - Style of Riding

[Doug H.]

When I bought my Clem Smith Jr it was a revelation in riding. I had ridden 
mostly drop bars for many years and like you I would have shoulder and neck 
pain after long rides. The Clem with Tosco bars and an upright riding 
position solved my aches and pains immediately. I also discovered I could 
ride for 3 hours without pain and my mileage wasn't much less than with a 
"road bike". I recently bought a Roadini with drop bars. The bars were up 
nice and high so I don't think I would have experienced neck or shoulder 
pain. But, I decided to swap the drop bars for Albatross bars. Swept back 
bars are my preferred and only bars now.  This is what works for me but I 
don't recommend it to people necessarily. I just share my experience and 
preferences if asked. Another thing about an upright posture is being able 
to take in the scenery better as I ride. Like I said, it was a revelation 
for me and has transformed my riding experience.
Doug

On Wednesday, May 8, 2024 at 9:28:41 PM UTC-4 Jay wrote:

> I was always aware of bikes with a very relaxed geometry / setup, and it 
> wasn't until I started seeing Rivendell bikes and watching youtube videos 
> of people riding them that I really thought about it - is it more 
> comfortable than drop bars, even if I have a more neutral (not aggressive) 
> position on the bike (i.e., bars close to level with saddle)?  Would this 
> be a good option for just cruising around, but for 1-2 hours?  If I didn't 
> get along well with flat bars on mountain bike, would swept back bars be 
> better?
>
> I'm going to ramble a bit here, my apologies in advance.  I haven't 
> thought long enough about this to formulate my question succinctly. 
>  Hopefully you get where I'm coming from.
>
> *Quick background*
> - been riding a little over 20 years (closing in on 50!)
> - started with mountain biking (hardtail, singletrack); moved to road; 
> tried mountain biking two more times (I love being in nature) but didn't 
> like the thrill/danger, and hated the idea of driving to the trail head; 
> have been mainly on the road for last 15 years, though with 10 years of 
> 'gravel' bikes/riding
> - I've had ongoing issues with my cervical spine (nothing serious) and 
> this leads to some problems when riding in any sort of aggressive position 
> on the bike; I see a chiro regularly; stretch a lot; workout / strength 
> training; have had numerous bike fits
> - I have a Roadini, Salsa Fargo and a road bike (25mm tires, but custom 
> made and really does fit like a glove, for road)
> - I don't care about performance at all, I just love riding bikes, in 
> particular when roads are not busy, or on trails, gravel roads, etc.
>
> On a good day (75% of the time), I can ride any of these bikes and during 
> the ride I feel pretty good (little to no pain), maybe a bit of pain after 
> (could be neck/shoulders, but anywhere else really), and after stretching I 
> feel great in a 1/2 to full day.  I ride 4-5x a week, workout 1-2 times 
> spring-fall and more in the winter.  
>
> But at least once a week, and maybe twice, I'll be riding, sometimes tired 
> as it's after work, and within an hour I'm running low on energy and 
> probably start to develop a bad posture on the bike, over-using my arms 
> which causes problems in my neck and shoulders, leading to upper body 
> aches/pains (while riding, and after).  Takes a lot of stretching and 
> awareness to reset.  *This is what I'm trying to resolve (move from 75% 
> to 99%)*
>
> My guess is that even with a bike like the Roadini or Salsa, with bars 
> about level with the saddle, and even with a professional fitting on each, 
> when I want to ride but I'm lacking energy, it goes poorly.  But is that 
> because these bikes are "kind of" aggressive (when compared to say a spine 
> angle closer to 70% and swept back bars)?  Or is it simply a combination of 
> age, history of some 'issues', low on energy and thus bad posture kicks in, 
> and would any bike be a joy to ride, or should I just go for a walk on 
> those days!?
>
> I would love to hear from those who ride both drop bars and also swept 
> back (or similar) in a way more relaxed geometry, or those who transitioned 
> to mainly this style, because it almost fully resolved your issues, if 
> they're anyway similar to mine.  *On a day when you're not feeling it, 
> but you have to commute or just love to ride, do you leave the drop bar 
> bike in the garage and hop on your more relaxed bike, and thus avoid most 
> of the issues you would have had on the other (slightly more aggressive) 
> bike?*
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Bill Lindsay]

In your original post you refer to your "current bike" with Billie bars. 
 Is that the Curtlo that you are selling over on the iBob list?   If so, 
for the benefit of the commenters, you said that Curtlo was designed to 
emulate a Rambouillet.  

I've got two comments:  First, I'm not crazy about your comment "I need my 
bars quite high cuz I'm old".  There are plenty of cyclists into their 80s 
who have the flexibility and general fitness to ride drop bars, and there 
are plenty of cyclists of every conceivable age that need their bars quite 
high in order to enjoy cycling.  If you in fact are old, and in fact need 
your bars high, the causal relationship between the two is not universal.  

Second, I think you'd experience a huge improvement with just a longer 
wheelbase.  Just going from a Rambouillet to a Leo Roadini would probably 
be a big improvement.  An A. Homer Hilsen may be even better.  The Hilsen 
is a road-oriented bike designed for uprights.  Try to arrange a test ride 
of a 54.5cm Hilsen.  It may be just your thing.  The go live on Thursday!

Bill Lindsay
El Cerrito, CA

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[J J]

Eddie, for what it's worth: when I bought an old Atlantis (that has the 
much more compact size and geometry than current Atlantis models) it had a 
Noodle drop bar on a medium length stem — a pretty standard Rivendell 
build. I couldn't ride it for more than a few miles without experiencing 
terrible pain in my wrists, neck, and shoulders due to an old injury. 
Importantly, it felt extremely twitchy to me, maybe because I couldn't ever 
get quite comfortable enough.  

I replaced the Noodle with an Albatross using the same stem, and it was a 
world of difference. The twitchiness was gone — maybe because I was no 
longer in pain and uncomfortable? The bike suddenly felt super stable. I 
even noticed that the toe clip overlap that annoyed me so much when riding 
the Noodle was also gone, a nonissue, with the Albatross.

The takeaway for me is that it's one thing to discuss how stem length and 
type of handlebar affect steering and handling hypothetically, in the 
abstract. But it is quite another to assess how stem length and type of 
handlebar affect steering and feel for a particular body actually riding a 
particular bike. There are so many idiosyncrasies and variables in each of 
us that what might be common sense and obvious for one body just doesn't 
work for another, no matter what the putative rules and accepted wisdom 
about it might be. Each of us has our own goals and purpose for riding, 
which also play into feel. 

Jim

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 10:09:02 AM UTC-4 Ted Durant wrote:

> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 4:59:17 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>  My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. 
> Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion 
> at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But 
> when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a 
> shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?
>
>
> My experience with a Quickbeam was similar - upright bars (Albatross) and 
> using the ends of the bars made for a very quick, "twitchy", light steering 
> feel. I attribute this to two factors. The first, and IMO more important 
> one, is that my position on the bike was far more upright, resulting in 
> much less weight on the front wheel. The second is that my hands were much 
> farther from the steering axis.
>
> So, if a shorter top-tube and longer stem results in a) your position 
> being the same, and b) moving your hands closer to the steering axis (which 
> it would if on your current setup your hands at the ends of the bar are 
> behind the steering axis) then I'd expect a slight reduction in 
> twitchiness. I'd expect it to be maybe imperceptible, though, because the 
> change in hand distance to steering axis will be tiny, as the bigger factor 
> in that regard is the handlebar width.
>
> Hand distance from the steering axis does two things. First, it gives more 
> leverage, so less effort is required to put an equal amount of force into 
> turning the fork or (what's really important) changing the angle of the 
> bike relative to the ground (or resisting other forces trying to change the 
> angle to the ground). Second, the flip side of that, for a given amount of 
> fork rotation (or body/bike/ground angle changes) your hands have to move a 
> greater distance. It's worth noting, only because some things I've seen 
> written seem confused on this issue, that if you change the stem length and 
> also change the bars, such that your hands wind up in the same place 
> relative to the steering axis, you will have zero change on steering feel. 
> You can put a 1000mm stem on there and super long backward reaching bars 
> and your leverage won't have changed. The amount of flex in that system 
> will likely have changed though, and that could impact "feel" in other ways.
>
> Ted Durant
> Milwaukee WI USA
>

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[RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Ted Durant]

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 4:59:17 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

 My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. 
Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion 
at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But 
when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a 
shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?


My experience with a Quickbeam was similar - upright bars (Albatross) and 
using the ends of the bars made for a very quick, "twitchy", light steering 
feel. I attribute this to two factors. The first, and IMO more important 
one, is that my position on the bike was far more upright, resulting in 
much less weight on the front wheel. The second is that my hands were much 
farther from the steering axis.

So, if a shorter top-tube and longer stem results in a) your position being 
the same, and b) moving your hands closer to the steering axis (which it 
would if on your current setup your hands at the ends of the bar are behind 
the steering axis) then I'd expect a slight reduction in twitchiness. I'd 
expect it to be maybe imperceptible, though, because the change in hand 
distance to steering axis will be tiny, as the bigger factor in that regard 
is the handlebar width.

Hand distance from the steering axis does two things. First, it gives more 
leverage, so less effort is required to put an equal amount of force into 
turning the fork or (what's really important) changing the angle of the 
bike relative to the ground (or resisting other forces trying to change the 
angle to the ground). Second, the flip side of that, for a given amount of 
fork rotation (or body/bike/ground angle changes) your hands have to move a 
greater distance. It's worth noting, only because some things I've seen 
written seem confused on this issue, that if you change the stem length and 
also change the bars, such that your hands wind up in the same place 
relative to the steering axis, you will have zero change on steering feel. 
You can put a 1000mm stem on there and super long backward reaching bars 
and your leverage won't have changed. The amount of flex in that system 
will likely have changed though, and that could impact "feel" in other ways.

Ted Durant
Milwaukee WI USA

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Steve]

Eddie, your initial post asking " how does shorter or longer stem effect 
steering?" has generated a a lot of interesting discussion about steering 
dynamics - but it seems that what you really want to get at is which size 
Roadini will work best for you with upright bars. 

You might start by taking a look at the geo for the 54 & 57 Roadinis and 
comparing  them both to the diagram of your current bike. (try the link to 
Bike Insights I've pasted below).   My suggestion is that the larger frame 
will better lend itself to a more upright riding position by virtue of its 
taller stack and shorter effective TT.   Both of the Roadinis have a longer 
wheelbase, slacker ST & HT angles, and more neutral trail than your current 
ride. I think you would discover that either of them  provide a more stable 
feeling front end than your current bike (which looks like it has maybe 
been pushed a bit beyond its design intent).  

Ultimately I agree with the suggestion that if you are looking for a bike 
that handles well with an upright position that you should consider a frame 
set intentionally designed for that style of riding.. 

https://bikeinsights.com/compare?geometries=5bb29e327581960016665a31,5bb29e327581960016665a32,

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:58:13 AM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> Doug, my guess is that headtube angle and trail on the Clem probably adds 
> to steadier steering. Riv does not seem to publish trail numbers but as I 
> understand it trail is key to steering characteristics.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:47:46 AM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I 
>> hope you find the right setup for your bike.
>> Doug
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:
>>
>>> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
>>> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
>>> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
>>> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
>>> steady.
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
 http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
 And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars 
 look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the 
 steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would 
 require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
 Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
 https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6


 On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop 
> bars. 
> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on 
>> a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to 
>> move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of 
>> with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up 
>> to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get 
>> from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". 
>> Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands 
>> forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to 
>> maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me 
>> all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of 
>> people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, 
>> and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand 
>> the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't 
>> relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that 
>> which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company 
>> as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become 
>> so 
>> passe', so to speak. In 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Richard Rose]

Precisely.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 9:43 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the world, I ride them and it's fun. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:51:36 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , and this is a whole case of them ! First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's always the same guitar. This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem. *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. Joe Bernard On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?



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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

Doug, my guess is that headtube angle and trail on the Clem probably adds 
to steadier steering. Riv does not seem to publish trail numbers but as I 
understand it trail is key to steering characteristics.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:47:46 AM UTC-7 Doug H. wrote:

> I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I 
> hope you find the right setup for your bike.
> Doug
>
> On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:
>
>> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
>> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
>> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
>> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
>> steady.
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
>>> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
>>> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars 
>>> look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the 
>>> steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would 
>>> require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
>>> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
>>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>>>
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
 head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. 
 I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
 to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.

 On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on 
> a Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to 
> move 
> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with 
> a 
> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". 
> Bikes 
> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to 
> maximize 
> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me 
> all 
> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of 
> people 
> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, 
> and 
> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand 
> the 
> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't 
> relate 
> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that 
> which 
> one enjoys. 
>
> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company 
> as 
> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become 
> so 
> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be 
> something 
> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  
> in 
> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to 
> be 
> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never 
> enough, 
> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear 
> missing 
> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality 
> of 
> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>
>
>
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>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Doug H.]

I do wonder if the long wheelbase makes my Clem more stable in general. I
hope you find the right setup for your bike.
Doug

On Mon, Sep 11, 2023 at 8:41 AM eddietheflay  wrote:

> Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two
> years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands
> are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright
> that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less
> steady.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones:
>> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
>> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars
>> look cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the
>> steering would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would
>> require a smaller frame with shorter top tube?
>> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup:
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>>
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my
>>> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars.
>>> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach
>>> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>>>
>>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>>>
 More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a
 Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move
 forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a
 shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to
 the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride
 them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from
 Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes
 simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward
 of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize
 the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all
 the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis
 will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people
 ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I
 simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and
 we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the
 Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate
 to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which
 one enjoys.

 I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the
 last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as
 it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so
 passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to
 experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon
 for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes
 way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something
 more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for
 "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the
 inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in
 some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be
 fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The
 compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always
 taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough,
 and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't
 absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing
 aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of
 What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on.



 --
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> 
> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

Hello Doug, I have been riding Billie bars on three bikes for nearly two 
years. I can do just fine but still notice I am less steady when my hands 
are on the grips while descending at speed. Could be that I am so upright 
that my center of gravity compared to drop bars is making things a less 
steady.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:38:47 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these ones: 
> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
> And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars look 
> cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the steering 
> would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would require a 
> smaller frame with shorter top tube?
> Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6
>
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my 
>> head is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. 
>> I guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach 
>> to the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>>
>> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>>
>>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>>> one enjoys. 
>>>
>>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I have never tried really high-mounted drop bars like these 
ones: http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2010/05/drop-bar-diaries.html
And for me that would be mostly about the aesthetics. Swept back bars look 
cooler and less weird that high-mounted drop bars. I wonder if the steering 
would "seem" significantly less twitchy and if for me it would require a 
smaller frame with shorter top tube?
Here are photos of my current twitchy setup: 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Nn7Pzb61yBhXaKCE6


On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:26:34 AM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Doug H.]

Eddie,
When I first rode a Clem with Bosco bars it was so different from drop bars 
below the saddle level that steering seemed odd. It took a few rides to 
settle in to the upright position and having the bars above the saddle and 
coming back toward me, if that makes sense. Like you though I was having 
neck pain. I see many folks my age and older still riding drop bars and 
good on them. But, we are all different and thank goodness there are 
options! I guess my advice would be to give upright bars 100 miles or so to 
see if the steering becomes more palatable for you. 
Doug

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 8:26:34 AM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
> is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
> guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
> the hoods on drop bars comfortable.
>
> On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:
>
>> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
>> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
>> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
>> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
>> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
>> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
>> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
>> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
>> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
>> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
>> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
>> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
>> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
>> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
>> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
>> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
>> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
>> one enjoys. 
>>
>> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the 
>> last 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as 
>> it became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
>> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
>> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
>> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
>> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
>> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
>> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
>> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
>> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
>> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
>> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
>> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
>> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
>> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
>> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
>> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>>
>>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I need my bars quite high cuz I'm old and my neck aches badly when my head 
is hanging over drop bars. I have considered tall stem and drop bars. I 
guess that would mean shorter top-tubed bike in order to make the reach to 
the hoods on drop bars comfortable.

On Monday, September 11, 2023 at 5:17:39 AM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
> Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
> forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
> shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
> the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
> them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
> Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
> simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
> of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
> the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
> the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
> will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
> ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
> simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
> we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
> Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
> to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
> one enjoys. 
>
> I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 
> 20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it 
> became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
> passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
> experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
> for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
> way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
> more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
> "newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
> inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
> some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
> fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
> compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
> taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
> and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
> absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
> aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
> What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Garth]

More specifically Eddie, I don't think using a bar like the Billie on a 
Roadini is a good idea to begin with if you find yourself wanting to move 
forward for a more stable steering experience. You be much better of with a 
shallow drop bar.  Personally, I don't think having high bars lives up to 
the purported benefits often espoused by Will or Grant and all that ride 
them. I found just the opposite myself. it's like wanting to get from 
Dallas to Atlanta via Seattle.  "your're going the wrong way !". Bikes 
simply handle wonderfully with your body weight forward and hands forward 
of the steering axis. I get that GP designs his "upright" bikes to maximize 
the "high, back and upright" position in terms of stability, but to me all 
the compensating in the world for being so far back of the steering axis 
will ever eliminate that "twitchy, tiller effect". That said lots of people 
ride them and love them and rightly so. I'm coming from a place where I 
simply don't relate to that in a positive way. It's a matter of taste, and 
we all have an affinity for what we have an affinity for. I can't stand the 
Star Anise flavor for example, that many people love. While I don't relate 
to the flavor itself, I certainly relate to the experiencing of that which 
one enjoys. 

I think of how Rivendell frame design has so radically changed in the last 
20 years. You could say the Clem design may have saved the company as it 
became so popular as the basic road bike design had seemed to become so 
passe', so to speak. In the seeming endless quest for something "new" to 
experience, I can see how road bike design went to ape crazy into carbon 
for lightness and disc brakes and now aerodynamics. It's making the bikes 
way more complex that they need to be, and making them out to be something 
more than they ever are.  a means to "the ride" ! That quest for 
"newness" is ironically the source of all the woes of the world, as the 
inherent message within it is that "now isn't good enough, it's lacking  in 
some way, so more is needed, some compensation is required in ordered to be 
fulfilled !". The problem with that is that is just a big fat lie. The 
compensation is never enough, no matter how much is given, more is always 
taken, more is demanded. More is never enough. Of course it's never enough, 
and that's the point. ISness can't be fulfilled or made because it isn't 
absent in any way. What a paradox . things that seem to appear missing 
aren't missing at all. they're revealing in the Light the actuality of 
What IS :)   How cool that is .. Ride on. 



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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Joe Bernard]

Garth opens up another can of worms with perception. Am I aware that 
there's a smidge of tiller effect on my custom and significantly more on 
Cheap Old Hybrid? Yes. Do I actually perceive this on rides? Nope. I like 
the bars and the bikes go and turn and stop and I haven't a care in the 
world, I ride them and it's fun. 

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 5:51:36 PM UTC-7 Garth wrote:

> Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , 
> and this is a whole case of them ! 
>
> First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, 
> largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as 
> identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar 
> frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design 
> otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could 
> stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, 
> albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of 
> gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar 
> end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong 
> application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. 
>
> The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond 
> of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for 
> comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still 
> be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and 
> best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, 
> I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design 
> philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. 
>
> The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's 
> isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's 
> always the same guitar. 
>
> This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in 
> the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering 
> and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause 
> and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! 
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
>> couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
>> shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
>> then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?
>>
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either 
>>> my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has 
>>> been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with 
>>> relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little 
>>> bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>>>
>>> Sent from my iPhone
>>>
>>> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>>
>>> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
>>> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
>>> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>>
 Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots 
 of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference 
 in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call 
 tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos 
 without needing the longest possible stem. 

 *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
 bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
 Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 

 Joe Bernard 
 On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be 
> twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in 
> front like you find on all drop bar bikes?
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be 
>> best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without 
>> hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
>> adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to 
>> both 
>> the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems 
>> quite 
>> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really 
>> twitchy. 
>> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Garth]

Well Eddie there are cans of worms and then there are #10 can of worms , 
and this is a whole case of them ! 

First off, the amount of sensitivity in steering inputs, that feeling, 
largely depends on the design of the frame.  I've had two bike set up as 
identical as they can be with Albatross bars and 130mm stems, with similar 
frame reach(relatively long) and stack and all, but very different design 
otherwise,. My custom Franklin road bike has no tiller effect, I could 
stand and do dances but it's decidedly European road racing feel remained, 
albeit the higher bar height was disconcerting at times. Too high of 
gravity, despite my hands being near the curves all the time as I used bar 
end brake levers. It helps for sure in handling, but it was just the wrong 
application for the frame. That bike excels long and low with drop bars. 

The Bombadil on the other hand has a notable tiller effect which I'm fond 
of at all. I'm in the process of changing it to much lower drop bars for 
comfort reasons. That may lesson the tiller effect some, but it will still 
be there. Going long and low in drops is to me the most comfortable and 
best way for handing a bike. While I've never ridden a Riv road only bike, 
I highly doubt any Riv road bike would handle the way I prefer, the design 
philosophy of Grant doesn't vary that much. 

The bottom line is no bar is going to change a frame into something it's 
isn't. It's like a guitar, you can tune it in, or tune it out, but it's 
always the same guitar. 

This just scratches the surface anyways, as the placement of the rider in 
the frame in relation to the BB also alters one's perceptions of steering 
and everything else. Everything effects everything, in the story of cause 
and effect. Without the story... it doesn't. Yippie ! 

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 7:53:34 PM UTC-4 eddietheflay wrote:

> So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
> couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
> shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
> then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:
>
>> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either 
>> my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has 
>> been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with 
>> relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little 
>> bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone
>>
>> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>>
>> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
>> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
>> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>>
>>> Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots 
>>> of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference 
>>> in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call 
>>> tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos 
>>> without needing the longest possible stem. 
>>>
>>> *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
>>> bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
>>> Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 
>>>
>>> Joe Bernard 
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
 when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front 
 like 
 you find on all drop bar bikes?

 On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. 
> I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
> myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
> adjustable 
> stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
> portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make 
> things 
> more steady?

 -- 
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com.
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>>  
>> 

Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

So Joe I understand the concept of tiller as in the olden days a did a 
couple of years on bents. My more specific question is if a bike has a 
shorter top tube which requires more stem length to "reach" proper reach, 
then does some of the tiller affect get reduced?

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 3:19:04 PM UTC-7 rmro...@gmail.com wrote:

> Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my 
> Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a 
> long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively 
> straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But 
> other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:
>
> Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I 
> have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on 
> that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 
>
>
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of 
>> upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in 
>> steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller 
>> effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without 
>> needing the longest possible stem. 
>>
>> *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road 
>> bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for 
>> Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 
>>
>> Joe Bernard 
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
>>> when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like 
>>> you find on all drop bar bikes?
>>>
>>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>>
 I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. 
 I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
 myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall 
 adjustable 
 stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
 portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
 comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
 Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things 
 more steady?
>>>
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Re: [RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Richard Rose]

Wow. All I can say is that the steering is not at all twitchy on either my Clem or Gus, both with Bosco’s. Clem has a 135 stem, Gus 100. It has been a long time since I rode drop bars but compared to my mtb’s with relatively straight bars with short stems, the Riv’s under steer a little bit. But other factors might be in play, geometry in particular.Sent from my iPhoneOn Sep 10, 2023, at 5:53 PM, Joe Bernard  wrote:Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without needing the longest possible stem. *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. Joe Bernard On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like you find on all drop bar bikes?On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things more steady?



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[RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Joe Bernard]

Of course it might be worse on your current bike than any Rivendell. I have 
an old/cheap Marin hybrid with Boscos and the nervous/tiller effect on that 
one is kinda ridiculous, Rivs don't act like that. 

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:19:39 PM UTC-7 Joe Bernard wrote:

> Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of 
> upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in 
> steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller 
> effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without 
> needing the longest possible stem. 
>
> *I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike 
> with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies 
> and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 
>
> Joe Bernard 
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
>> when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like 
>> you find on all drop bar bikes?
>>
>> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>>
>>> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I 
>>> have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
>>> myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable 
>>> stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
>>> portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
>>> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
>>> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things 
>>> more steady?
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[Joe Bernard]

Your second question is, I think, where things stand. I've ridden lots of 
upright bars with varying stem lengths and there isn't much difference in 
steering feel, they all have a bit of what the recumbent folks call tiller 
effect. I try to buy frames that give me good reach to Boscos without 
needing the longest possible stem. 

*I will say that the Roadini is weighted towards being a dropbar road bike 
with semi-quick steering geometry. It's not primarily designed for Billies 
and should have a smidge more tiller than, say, a Clem or Platy. 

Joe Bernard 
On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 2:01:24 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
> when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like 
> you find on all drop bar bikes?
>
> On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:
>
>> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I 
>> have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
>> myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable 
>> stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
>> portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
>> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
>> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things 
>> more steady?
>
>

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[RBW] Re: upright bars: how does shorter or longer stem affect steering?

[eddietheflay]

I guess another question would be can you expect steering to be twitchy 
when all your leverage it behind the steering axis instead of in front like 
you find on all drop bar bikes?

On Sunday, September 10, 2023 at 1:59:17 PM UTC-7 eddietheflay wrote:

> I am considering a Roadini and not sure if a 54 or a 57 would be best. I 
> have always ridden the biggest bike I can stand over without hurting 
> myself. My current bike has Billie bars installed on a very tall adjustable 
> stem. Effective top tube on this bike is 59.5cm. Reach to both the rear 
> portion at the grips and front portion at the curves seems quite 
> comfortable. But when steering from the grips things seem really twitchy. 
> Wondering if a shorter top-tubed bike with a longer stem would make things 
> more steady?

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[RBW] Re: Upright bars and romulus

[Ash]

Nice bike and nice bike photography Erl!


On Thursday, 30 August 2018 02:29:57 UTC-7, WETH wrote:
>
> Dear Dennis,
>
> I have and really enjoy the ride: https://flic.kr/p/22KjYfJ
> If you have further questions let me know.  
> More photos of the bike here: 
> https://www.flickr.com/gp/86975051@N08/7913Q8
>
> All the best,
> Erl
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright handlebar mod

[R Shannon]

Love those father/daughter stories. 
Exactly my feelings toward my 26 year old
daughter:-)))

Best to you both,
Richard

Sent from my iPhone

> On Mar 8, 2018, at 12:09 PM, Ron Mc  wrote:
> 
> thanks Richard, she's a rock star, summa cum laude, NHS, nationally ranked 
> wrestler, 20 scholarship offers - all the wrestling schools want her, plus 
> Trinity, School of Mines - she's set on A, though   She's my hero.  
>  
> 
> a sample of her offense from Region championships https://youtu.be/dncYrcA497w
> 
> Also on her team is the valedictorian going to Harvard, most of the girls and 
> boys are UIL Academic Team, one has the West Point appointment.  
> 
> The team banquet was last evening, and she was loaded with more awards.  Her 
> letter jacket has championship patches on the back - out of spots on the 
> sleeves and front.  .  
> 
> 
>> On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 10:14:05 AM UTC-6, RichS wrote:
>> Nice post Ron. The variety of content reminds me of one of Grant's Blahg 
>> posts. Congrats to your daughter too!
>> 
>> Best,
>> Richard
 
> 
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[RBW] Re: Upright handlebar mod

[Ron Mc]

thanks Richard, she's a rock star, summa cum laude, NHS, nationally ranked 
wrestler, 20 scholarship offers - all the wrestling schools want her, plus 
Trinity, School of Mines - she's set on A, though   She's my hero.  

 

a sample of her offense from Region 
championships https://youtu.be/dncYrcA497w

Also on her team is the valedictorian going to Harvard, most of the girls 
and boys are UIL Academic Team, one has the West Point appointment.  

The team banquet was last evening, and she was loaded with more awards.  
Her letter jacket has championship patches on the back - out of spots on 
the sleeves and front.  .  

On Thursday, March 8, 2018 at 10:14:05 AM UTC-6, RichS wrote:
>
> Nice post Ron. The variety of content reminds me of one of Grant's Blahg 
> posts. Congrats to your daughter too!
>
> Best,
> Richard
>
>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Upright handlebar mod

[RichS]

Nice post Ron. The variety of content reminds me of one of Grant's Blahg 
posts. Congrats to your daughter too!

Best,
Richard

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 9:56:08 PM UTC-5, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> Thanks Ian - I'll try not to be a stranger, but I'm currently loaded down 
> with work, which is actually better than having too much time to ride.  
>
> On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-6, Ian A wrote:
>>
>> Great post, Ron. Good to see you back and posting again. Fabulous photos. 
>> Looking forward to more ride reports. It's still cold where I live and 
>> we're still at least two months away from distance riding season. In a 
>> recent snowfall I crashed out on my commute, leading to hip and back x-rays 
>> (no harm done past bruising etc). So, yeah - keep those Texas ride reports 
>> coming!
>>
>> India is a major exporter of leather goods. Buffalo hide seems to be the 
>> source of most leather. 
>>
>> IanA/The frozen wasteland of Edmonton Canada.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Upright handlebar mod

[Ron Mc]

Thanks Ian - I'll try not to be a stranger, but I'm currently loaded down 
with work, which is actually better than having too much time to ride.  

On Wednesday, March 7, 2018 at 5:05:34 PM UTC-6, Ian A wrote:
>
> Great post, Ron. Good to see you back and posting again. Fabulous photos. 
> Looking forward to more ride reports. It's still cold where I live and 
> we're still at least two months away from distance riding season. In a 
> recent snowfall I crashed out on my commute, leading to hip and back x-rays 
> (no harm done past bruising etc). So, yeah - keep those Texas ride reports 
> coming!
>
> India is a major exporter of leather goods. Buffalo hide seems to be the 
> source of most leather. 
>
> IanA/The frozen wasteland of Edmonton Canada.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Upright Bars

[RichS]

Ha, Ha, indeed. I'm betting that's a security person on a bike right behind 
him. You can see an arm and a bit of the bike.

Regards,
Richard

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[RBW] Re: Upright Bars

[Wayne Naha]

I'll bet that the cordon of French secret service vehicles will keep him 
safe from any traffic, at least.

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[RBW] Re: Upright Bars

[RichS]

Looks like my riding position! Love the scarf! Tres chic and so French.

I second your suggestion on the helmet. Thanks for posting this Eric.

Regards,
Richard 

On Monday, June 12, 2017 at 12:06:42 AM UTC-4, Eric Norris wrote:
>
> Here’s how French President Macron deals with backswept upright bars: 
>
> https://twitter.com/CHAIRRDRF/status/873993154487357440/photo/1 
>
> Somebody needs to offer to put some twine-wrapped tape on the forward part 
> of his handlebars. 
>
> P.S. Nice to see him riding in regular clothes, but I would personally 
> suggest a helmet. Lots of traffic and hard surfaces in Paris. 
>
> Eric N 
> www.CampyOnly.com 
> CampyOnlyGuy.blogspot.com 
> Twitter: @CampyOnlyGuy

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[RBW] Re: Upright road riders tell me your fit setup please.

[Zed Martinez]

1. Flat, mostly. Windy. Occasional hill.
2. Clem, Bosco, 100mm stem
2 again. Commuting and other vehicular cycling up to 60 miles a day on 
occasion
3. The angle of my saddle basically forms a continuous line going into the 
bars, so, bars a bit above saddle and ends of bars about even with saddle 
nose. B17, the C17 was too narrow sitting as upright as the Boscos for my 
sit bones. But that's going to be a you thing, some might even want a wider 
seat still. The other metrics are independent of the bars, your saddle 
should be at a height and fore/aft where your hips don't rock and you don't 
have pain on the top or bottom of any knee. I can also usually judge 
fore/aft by whether or not I have to force myself to slide back and not sit 
on the nose when pedaling with some force (as this tends to slide me 
naturally into an optimum leg extension). Adjust tilt until no rubbing in 
the soft bits. All of my bikes are at slightly different adjustments 
because of different saddles, pedals, seat angles, etc. Once you get your 
butt and knees happy, the reach is dialed in with stem. I like a 100mm on 
the Clem's long tube, on a Sam I'd probably start with a 120 for myself and 
see how it goes.
4. Rode all winter in 20mph winds and 40mph gusts, as low as 7 degrees F 
actual and somewhere in the negatives with wind chill. Long undies, wool 
base layer, a Showers Pass Amsterdam jacket, and rain pants over my pants 
pretty well kept the wind out. In the really cold stuff, two layers of long 
johns for the thighs and crotch.

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 11:38:43 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Thinking of trying Boscos on my Sam. I like my drops setups. But thinking 
> an upright setup will be fun for on-road riding, too. I do commuting, 
> errands, centuries, recreational on-road riding.
>
> But it is hilly around here and was wondering what you hilly upright 
> riders do for your upright bike setups that works for you.
>
> I know this is a highly individual thing, but interested to see what works 
> for you.
>
> Please mention:
> 1. Terrain you ride in.
> 2. What model bike and upright handlebar.
> 2. What type of on-road riding you do (commutes, errands, centuries, 
> brevets, touring, recreational road riding).
> 3. Fit:
>  a) Your bar height to saddle height
>  b) seat fore and aft (KOPS?, saddle slammed all the way back on 
> the rails Riv-style, etc.?)
>  c) saddle height ( I guess most of you use the Riv method of 
> PBH-11cm?).
>  d) what kinda saddle and how do you tilt it?
>
> 4. Also, what do you do in winter so you don't get blasted with wintry 
> blasts when riding? My thighs and shoulders get cranky when I ride too long 
> in the cold, and upright just opens them up to more direct wintry wind 
> punishment.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Conway Bennett]

I jut wrapped up this same project on my QB.  No pun intended but now realize 
what I typed.  I added photos to the newbaum's flickr group cause I never 
sorted out the whole image thing here.  Basically I used a bunch of scrap tape. 
 You can see the BA with Amber shellac.  Levers are basic sram straight bars, 
VO cables and grips are origin8 corkies.  Really, really like the grips and 
they are easily installed with a lil water and removed with a chop stick and 
drop of Doc Bronners.

FW,

CBB

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Jim Bronson]

The link to the Newbaum's Flickr group is:
http://www.flickr.com/groups/1891921@N20/

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Conway Bennett
captainconwaybenn...@gmail.com wrote:
 I jut wrapped up this same project on my QB.  No pun intended but now realize 
 what I typed.  I added photos to the newbaum's flickr group cause I never 
 sorted out the whole image thing here.  Basically I used a bunch of scrap 
 tape.  You can see the BA with Amber shellac.  Levers are basic sram 
 straight bars, VO cables and grips are origin8 corkies.  Really, really like 
 the grips and they are easily installed with a lil water and removed with a 
 chop stick and drop of Doc Bronners.

 FW,

 CBB

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[RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Surlyprof]

I followed the Riv video for trimming with twine and it worked 
beautifully.  The way they make the end disappear is slick.  I bought two 
rolls of it and barely put a dent in one roll.  We now keep one roll in the 
kitchen and one in the garage.  It's great for other things like tying back 
the legs on a Thanksgiving turkey!

John

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:53:33 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

 I would like to get some cloth tape to use with some albatross-like 
 bars (Soma Oxford) that have Miesha's corkgrips on them, to achieve 
 this sort of look as seen on Rivendell's site: 

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/m4.htm 

 Note that, I'm not planning to shellac the grips themselves because of 
 some feedback I got from Miesha herself on the phone the other day. 
 She didn't like the shellac on the grips. 

 Anyway, what color tape should I start with before the shellac? 
 White, beige, or something else? 

 Also, since I'm on the subject of the build on my wifey's new to her 
 frame, 

 What adhesive did you use for the cork grips?  Rivendell mentions 
 Gorilla Grip and some sort of Permatex automotive RTV Form a Gasket 
 1A sealant as seen in the video: 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VaUlzsDDvkx-yt-ts=1422411861x-yt-cl=84924572
  
 I would probably make my decision based on just what was most cost 
 effective.  Seems like if that form of Permatex worked, that any kind 
 of Permatex RTV might work.  (I used to have lots of RTV around back 
 in the day when I had a Honda that required valve adjustment every 
 15K, the gasket would leak on reinstallation unless you put a drop of 
 RTV in the corners.  But I think that stuff is long since dried up). 
 What about painters' caulk?  I have like 8 tubes of that sitting 
 around.  Bought too much when I painted the outside of my house. 

 Where's the best place to buy the twine as depicted in Riv's videos? 
 I didn't see it on their site. 

 Any metal fender installation tips? 




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[RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Bill Lindsay]

My roll lives in the garage.  My wife and kids would kick me out of the 
house if I tried to bring that hemp twine indoors.  I call it hemp twine. 
 They all call it Stinky String.  My roll lives in the garage.  

On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 1:52:02 PM UTC-8, Surlyprof wrote:

 I followed the Riv video for trimming with twine and it worked 
 beautifully.  The way they make the end disappear is slick.  I bought two 
 rolls of it and barely put a dent in one roll.  We now keep one roll in the 
 kitchen and one in the garage.  It's great for other things like tying back 
 the legs on a Thanksgiving turkey!

 John

 On Wednesday, January 28, 2015 at 9:53:33 AM UTC-8, Jim Bronson wrote:

 I would like to get some cloth tape to use with some albatross-like 
 bars (Soma Oxford) that have Miesha's corkgrips on them, to achieve 
 this sort of look as seen on Rivendell's site: 

 http://www.rivbike.com/product-p/m4.htm 

 Note that, I'm not planning to shellac the grips themselves because of 
 some feedback I got from Miesha herself on the phone the other day. 
 She didn't like the shellac on the grips. 

 Anyway, what color tape should I start with before the shellac? 
 White, beige, or something else? 

 Also, since I'm on the subject of the build on my wifey's new to her 
 frame, 

 What adhesive did you use for the cork grips?  Rivendell mentions 
 Gorilla Grip and some sort of Permatex automotive RTV Form a Gasket 
 1A sealant as seen in the video: 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0VaUlzsDDvkx-yt-ts=1422411861x-yt-cl=84924572
  
 I would probably make my decision based on just what was most cost 
 effective.  Seems like if that form of Permatex worked, that any kind 
 of Permatex RTV might work.  (I used to have lots of RTV around back 
 in the day when I had a Honda that required valve adjustment every 
 15K, the gasket would leak on reinstallation unless you put a drop of 
 RTV in the corners.  But I think that stuff is long since dried up). 
 What about painters' caulk?  I have like 8 tubes of that sitting 
 around.  Bought too much when I painted the outside of my house. 

 Where's the best place to buy the twine as depicted in Riv's videos? 
 I didn't see it on their site. 

 Any metal fender installation tips? 




 -- 
 Keep the metal side up and the rubber side down! 



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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Jim Bronson]

I see your pics now Conway.  Interesting how you have those MTB
bar-end posts mounted frontwards.

On Wed, Jan 28, 2015 at 2:50 PM, Conway Bennett
captainconwaybenn...@gmail.com wrote:
 I jut wrapped up this same project on my QB.  No pun intended but now realize 
 what I typed.  I added photos to the newbaum's flickr group cause I never 
 sorted out the whole image thing here.  Basically I used a bunch of scrap 
 tape.  You can see the BA with Amber shellac.  Levers are basic sram 
 straight bars, VO cables and grips are origin8 corkies.  Really, really like 
 the grips and they are easily installed with a lil water and removed with a 
 chop stick and drop of Doc Bronners.

 FW,

 CBB

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[RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

[Ryan Christbaum]

Jim,

This is a photo https://www.flickr.com/photos/smudgemo/14976685554/ of my 
drop bars wrapped in Yellow tape and coated in a garnet shellac.  The tops 
got darker over time and I personally think they look very nice.  This is a 
photo 
https://www.flickr.com/photos/smudgemo/6900246567/in/set-72157627356608413 
of my wife's shellac'd cork grips, and I probably used a dark shellac like 
garnet on them, too.  Even a dark shellac doesn't color the surface as much 
as you might expect.  I also disagree with Meisha.  If you don't coat them 
with some sort of sealer, they'll look dirty quickly.  Nothing wrong with 
it if you like the look, but it's not my thing.  If you do shellac them, 
they may feel tacky when it's warm and you're sweating, but I never 
regretted cork/shellac.  Liquid nails is plenty strong enough to hold them 
in place, and you will find plenty of other uses for it as a glue.

I bought a bunch of different colors of shellac from shellac.net once upon 
a time - I think it might have been a sampler pack.  You mix only what you 
need (and experiment with mixing colors) and a whole can of store-bought 
won't go to waste since you really only use very little for a bike even if 
you do bar tape, the hemp ends, and hemp chain stay protection.  I like 
shellac a lot.  Keep the rest in a glass jar and reapply whenever you get 
the urge.  Now that I think of it, my wife's cork grips are beat up on the 
ends and could use a touch-up...

-Ryan

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[RBW] Re: Upright bar build question - shellacked cloth tape to match cork grips

['jinxed' via RBW Owners Bunch]

That looks like yellow tape with a single coat of amber shellac.

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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[Brian Campbell]

GH!! NO helmets, no spandex...how did the survive??

On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:02:30 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

 Not upright and a bit more commercial (but its Brooks, so that is 
 acceptable, right?) but fun video nonetheless.  Whoever was running the 
 camera did a great job.

 Note the two riders make good time Land's End to John O'Groats without 
 dedicated bike clothes or helmets.  I need to do this ride and soon.

 http://blog.brooksengland.com/wps/lands-end-to-john-ogroats-video/

 On Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:50:41 AM UTC-5, Cecily Walker wrote:

 This really makes me miss my Dutch bike. 

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  


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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[dougP]

Riding sensibly helps a lot on both issues.  The guys on the racing bikes 
in full race garb look really out of place.  Sort of like driving a Ferrari 
down to the local coffee house for a cappucino.

dougP

On Wednesday, August 20, 2014 6:12:52 PM UTC-7, Brian Campbell wrote:

 GH!! NO helmets, no spandex...how did the survive??

 On Tuesday, August 19, 2014 12:02:30 PM UTC-4, Matthew J wrote:

 Not upright and a bit more commercial (but its Brooks, so that is 
 acceptable, right?) but fun video nonetheless.  Whoever was running the 
 camera did a great job.

 Note the two riders make good time Land's End to John O'Groats without 
 dedicated bike clothes or helmets.  I need to do this ride and soon.

 http://blog.brooksengland.com/wps/lands-end-to-john-ogroats-video/

 On Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:50:41 AM UTC-5, Cecily Walker wrote:

 This really makes me miss my Dutch bike. 

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't 
 to look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place 
 behind it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look 
 through 
 into somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now 
 is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and 
 where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he 
 cried. Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place 
 where Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but 
 which of you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  


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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[Matthew J]

Not upright and a bit more commercial (but its Brooks, so that is 
acceptable, right?) but fun video nonetheless.  Whoever was running the 
camera did a great job.

Note the two riders make good time Land's End to John O'Groats without 
dedicated bike clothes or helmets.  I need to do this ride and soon.

http://blog.brooksengland.com/wps/lands-end-to-john-ogroats-video/

On Sunday, August 17, 2014 12:50:41 AM UTC-5, Cecily Walker wrote:

 This really makes me miss my Dutch bike. 

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Matthew J]

Yes.  Everyone is very natural.  

Chicago is seeing a large increase in cyclists the past few years.  But 
many new and old appear to treat cycling as an event.  They plan for it, 
dress for it, often drive somewhere to do it.  

No complaints.  I am glad to see cycling going mainstream.  It will be 
great if for more cycling can become the norm as in the video.

On Friday, August 15, 2014 8:17:35 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:

 What particularly struck me was the variety of riders -- all ages, all 
 sexes, all kinds of dress, obviously taking riding as much for granted as 
 we do our cars.

 I very briefly rode a real Dutch Gazelle and I was struck by how -- what's 
 the opposite of unwieldy -- wieldy? -- it was. It felt a lot lighter 
 than and a lot less ponderous than I expected.

 I was also struck by the bar -- in my stomach area. Granted that it was a 
 size or so too small, but I couldn't execute a tight turn because my 
 (slender) belly intercepted the bar. 


 On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Matthew J matth...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 Cool video.  Those racks better be strong.  A lot of adults hitching 
 rides!


 On Friday, August 15, 2014 7:06:33 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

 In all those riders, I only noticed 3 sets of drop bars and only 2 
 riders in lycra.  And now I understand why the Europeans have standards for 
 racks.  I'll wager Tubus et al specifically warn against using a rack for 
 carrying passengers but it looks pretty commonly done.  H.maybe all 
 the reinforcing bits on Nitto, Tubus, etc., are there for a reason.  

 dougP

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
  Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't 
 to look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place 
 behind it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look 
 through 
 into somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now 
 is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and 
 where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he 
 cried. Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place 
 where Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but 
 which of you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  
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 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in 

[RBW] Re: Upright!

[Garth]

While I find an upright position like most of those distinctly 
not-for-me-thank-you , I do love the spirited culture of the place .  Too 
bad it's in Europe, where it's too cold, too wet and too cloudy for my 
liking , darn it !   I like this one too, it really shows the mass bike 
culture of the Netherlands . 

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQc7qYl6CIMy first thought . . . . 
gee, where *did* I park my bike ?  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Patrick Moore]

And here's more:
http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140815-rise-of-the-short-haul-truckers

It would be great for cyclists generally if big boys (Sorry! Big girls!
Sorry! You're not fat!) identified with the cycling world, simply because
(I believe) the one biggest cause of cycling safety is mere general
awareness that cycling is a natural part of everyday traffic -- and this
comes, simply, with more cyclists on the road. (And, it would be great if
such big boys sued the shit out of motorists who egregiously (emphasize
that word) harm cyclists.)


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

 While I find an upright position like most of those distinctly
 not-for-me-thank-you , I do love the spirited culture of the place .  Too
 bad it's in Europe, where it's too cold, too wet and too cloudy for my
 liking , darn it !   I like this one too, it really shows the mass bike
 culture of the Netherlands .

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQc7qYl6CIMy first thought . . . .
 gee, where *did* I park my bike ?


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-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
  * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never
was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it.
Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
* Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
in your time and your body can they be?*
* Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *

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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Patrick Moore]

One more thought, based on my own experience: One great benefit of cycling
(or walking, or public transportation) in place of driving is that one is
far less likely to be impatient, worried, anxious, angry because other
drivers get in your way. I think this impatience and anger is caused by
the huge, gross, egregious discrepancy between the means given to us by a
large vehicles capable of 120 mph and 0-60 in sub 10 seconds, and the
normal constraints of traffic and traffic laws -- constraints which grow as
traffic grows. You are sitting in your 6000 lb Escalade with 400 hp and you
can only go 35 mph for a couple of blocks at a time. Of course you are
angry and impatient! (And what a fu**ing perversion that vehicle is!)

Patrick Moore, who recently rented a 2.5 liter 4 cyl Impala that cruised
easily at 90 on the flats and climbed Raton Pass at 80 while getting 30
mph.


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Patrick Moore bertin...@gmail.com wrote:

 And here's more:
 http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140815-rise-of-the-short-haul-truckers

 It would be great for cyclists generally if big boys (Sorry! Big girls!
 Sorry! You're not fat!) identified with the cycling world, simply because
 (I believe) the one biggest cause of cycling safety is mere general
 awareness that cycling is a natural part of everyday traffic -- and this
 comes, simply, with more cyclists on the road. (And, it would be great if
 such big boys sued the shit out of motorists who egregiously (emphasize
 that word) harm cyclists.)


 On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

 While I find an upright position like most of those distinctly
 not-for-me-thank-you , I do love the spirited culture of the place .  Too
 bad it's in Europe, where it's too cold, too wet and too cloudy for my
 liking , darn it !   I like this one too, it really shows the mass bike
 culture of the Netherlands .

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQc7qYl6CIMy first thought . . . .
 gee, where *did* I park my bike ?


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 --
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *




-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
  * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never
was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it.
Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
* Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
in your time and your body can they be?*
* Where in your time 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Garth]

Well Patrick  . ..  I would be being me if I did not be me .  . lol.

The cars, the people and the structure of America and every country and 
city are but the *means(effect)* of expression of one's state of being 
conscious, their choice of moods, they are not the *cause* of anything of 
themselves. The tail does not wag the doggy without the doggy being aware 
of having a tail to be chasing and to be wanting to catch it.   If he is 
sees his tail wagging , he does not need to respond to it by chasing, he 
can just watch it, enjoy it, ignore it or choose something else altogether 
more interesting :)  

  So I don't hold anyone or anything responsible for what I am experiencing 
but I, as all of it is only the effects of my most dominant state of 
consciousness/moods.  


 *The mood decides the fortunes of people, rather than the fortunes decide 
 the mood. Winston Churchill*




On Saturday, August 16, 2014 2:59:49 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

 One more thought, based on my own experience: One great benefit of cycling 
 (or walking, or public transportation) in place of driving is that one is 
 far less likely to be impatient, worried, anxious, angry because other 
 drivers get in your way. I think this impatience and anger is caused by 
 the huge, gross, egregious discrepancy between the means given to us by a 
 large vehicles capable of 120 mph and 0-60 in sub 10 seconds, and the 
 normal constraints of traffic and traffic laws -- constraints which grow as 
 traffic grows. You are sitting in your 6000 lb Escalade with 400 hp and you 
 can only go 35 mph for a couple of blocks at a time. Of course you are 
 angry and impatient! (And what a fu**ing perversion that vehicle is!)

 Patrick Moore, who recently rented a 2.5 liter 4 cyl Impala that cruised 
 easily at 90 on the flats and climbed Raton Pass at 80 while getting 30 
 mph. 


 On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:42 PM, Patrick Moore bert...@gmail.com 
 javascript: wrote:

 And here's more: 
 http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140815-rise-of-the-short-haul-truckers

 It would be great for cyclists generally if big boys (Sorry! Big girls! 
 Sorry! You're not fat!) identified with the cycling world, simply because 
 (I believe) the one biggest cause of cycling safety is mere general 
 awareness that cycling is a natural part of everyday traffic -- and this 
 comes, simply, with more cyclists on the road. (And, it would be great if 
 such big boys sued the shit out of motorists who egregiously (emphasize 
 that word) harm cyclists.)


 On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 While I find an upright position like most of those distinctly 
 not-for-me-thank-you , I do love the spirited culture of the place .  Too 
 bad it's in Europe, where it's too cold, too wet and too cloudy for my 
 liking , darn it !   I like this one too, it really shows the mass bike 
 culture of the Netherlands . 

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQc7qYl6CIMy first thought . . . 
 . gee, where *did* I park my bike ?  


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 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
 Groups RBW Owners Bunch group.
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 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  



 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 

Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Patrick Moore]

First, your means is not an effect, if you are using the word in any
ordinary sense.

Second, sure they are! I know it from seeing it in myself! A single
instance to the contrary serves to disprove a universal assertion.

What you say is not entirely without sense; yes, there are dispositions to
be actualized, or tendencies or potentialities. If I were a much more
mellow person than I am, I would, perhaps, not be irritated as much as I am
while driving by reason of the cause postulated. But I am, and so are
others; externals do act as causes. (In fact, a cause by definition is
external to its effect while, in another respect, being the same reality
in number. Parse that one!)

Over and out, 10 4. Amen.

Best, Patrick


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well Patrick  . ..  I would be being me if I did not be me .  . lol.

 The cars, the people and the structure of America and every country and
 city are but the *means(effect)* of expression of one's state of being
 conscious, their choice of moods, they are not the *cause* of anything
 of themselves.

-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
  * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never
was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it.
Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
* Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
in your time and your body can they be?*
* Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *

-- 
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Garth]

And I shall parse it indeed !! ;

Why Yes, what a wonderful point to make Patrick !   

Cause and effect *are* One (in consciousness)   !  :) So everything 
that is happening externally, IS what is going on within.   Yes, 
externals act as causes . . . and that is a most perfect term to use.  
They are *acting* *as* !   All the World IS a Stage  .  . . for all 
actors are playing out all acts imaginable.   It's all following a 
script(purpose), so to speak, without which there is no play, no acts. A 
Play must have a *purpose*(caused) to be being acted out(effected), or else 
there is no play, no acts to be happening at all.   So yes, the 
play(effect) and the script(cause) are of one consciousness , yet without a 
script, there is no play(effect) !   The actors do not write the 
play(effect), they can only follow the script(cause), even to the point of* 
appearing/playing* as they are writing a new script(now being the cause *and 
*being effected), but that WAS/IS part of the original script !

That a big 10.4 good buddy !!  





On Saturday, August 16, 2014 5:17:15 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:

 First, your means is not an effect, if you are using the word in any 
 ordinary sense.

 Second, sure they are! I know it from seeing it in myself! A single 
 instance to the contrary serves to disprove a universal assertion.

 What you say is not entirely without sense; yes, there are dispositions to 
 be actualized, or tendencies or potentialities. If I were a much more 
 mellow person than I am, I would, perhaps, not be irritated as much as I am 
 while driving by reason of the cause postulated. But I am, and so are 
 others; externals do act as causes. (In fact, a cause by definition is 
 external to its effect while, in another respect, being the same reality 
 in number. Parse that one!)

 Over and out, 10 4. Amen.

 Best, Patrick


 On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 3:11 PM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 Well Patrick  . ..  I would be being me if I did not be me .  . lol.

 The cars, the people and the structure of America and every country and 
 city are but the *means(effect)* of expression of one's state of being 
 conscious, their choice of moods, they are not the *cause* of anything 
 of themselves. 

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Patrick Moore]

No, *in re.* The effect as such (note the qualifier) is non-existent,
strictly speaking, except insofar as it is caused, that is, under the
influence (fluo/fluere) of the cause. The cause itself, of course, is
unmodified by the production of the effect. The Taoist term for this
universal reality is *wu wei* -- non acting action.


On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 3:56 PM, Garth garth...@gmail.com wrote:

 Cause and effect *are* One (in consciousness)   !  :)

-- 
*Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*

Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, Bios, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
  * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never
was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it.
Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
* Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
in your time and your body can they be?*
* Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *

-- 
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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[Cecily Walker]

This really makes me miss my Dutch bike. 

On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  

-- 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Cecily Walker]

I am fat. It's OK. It's just a word, like short, or blonde. :)


On Saturday, August 16, 2014 11:42:19 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 And here's more: 
 http://www.bbc.com/autos/story/20140815-rise-of-the-short-haul-truckers

 It would be great for cyclists generally if big boys (Sorry! Big girls! 
 Sorry! You're not fat!) identified with the cycling world, simply because 
 (I believe) the one biggest cause of cycling safety is mere general 
 awareness that cycling is a natural part of everyday traffic -- and this 
 comes, simply, with more cyclists on the road. (And, it would be great if 
 such big boys sued the shit out of motorists who egregiously (emphasize 
 that word) harm cyclists.)


 On Sat, Aug 16, 2014 at 12:28 PM, Garth gart...@gmail.com javascript: 
 wrote:

 While I find an upright position like most of those distinctly 
 not-for-me-thank-you , I do love the spirited culture of the place .  Too 
 bad it's in Europe, where it's too cold, too wet and too cloudy for my 
 liking , darn it !   I like this one too, it really shows the mass bike 
 culture of the Netherlands . 

  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ypQc7qYl6CIMy first thought . . . . 
 gee, where *did* I park my bike ?  


  -- 
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
 RBW Owners Bunch group.
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 email to rbw-owners-bun...@googlegroups.com javascript:.
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 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  

-- 
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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[dougP]

In all those riders, I only noticed 3 sets of drop bars and only 2 riders 
in lycra.  And now I understand why the Europeans have standards for 
racks.  I'll wager Tubus et al specifically warn against using a rack for 
carrying passengers but it looks pretty commonly done.  H.maybe all 
the reinforcing bits on Nitto, Tubus, etc., are there for a reason.  

dougP

On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  

-- 
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[RBW] Re: Upright!

[Matthew J]

Cool video.  Those racks better be strong.  A lot of adults hitching rides!

On Friday, August 15, 2014 7:06:33 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

 In all those riders, I only noticed 3 sets of drop bars and only 2 riders 
 in lycra.  And now I understand why the Europeans have standards for 
 racks.  I'll wager Tubus et al specifically warn against using a rack for 
 carrying passengers but it looks pretty commonly done.  H.maybe all 
 the reinforcing bits on Nitto, Tubus, etc., are there for a reason.  

 dougP

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new 
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get 
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 -- 
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to 
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from 
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to 
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind 
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into 
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your 
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is 
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was 
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there, 
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where 
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried. 
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where 
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of 
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *
  


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Re: [RBW] Re: Upright!

[Patrick Moore]

What particularly struck me was the variety of riders -- all ages, all
sexes, all kinds of dress, obviously taking riding as much for granted as
we do our cars.

I very briefly rode a real Dutch Gazelle and I was struck by how -- what's
the opposite of unwieldy -- wieldy? -- it was. It felt a lot lighter
than and a lot less ponderous than I expected.

I was also struck by the bar -- in my stomach area. Granted that it was a
size or so too small, but I couldn't execute a tight turn because my
(slender) belly intercepted the bar.


On Fri, Aug 15, 2014 at 6:54 PM, Matthew J matthewj...@gmail.com wrote:

 Cool video.  Those racks better be strong.  A lot of adults hitching rides!


 On Friday, August 15, 2014 7:06:33 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:

 In all those riders, I only noticed 3 sets of drop bars and only 2 riders
 in lycra.  And now I understand why the Europeans have standards for
 racks.  I'll wager Tubus et al specifically warn against using a rack for
 carrying passengers but it looks pretty commonly done.  H.maybe all
 the reinforcing bits on Nitto, Tubus, etc., are there for a reason.

 dougP

 On Friday, August 15, 2014 4:24:51 PM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote:

 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3smPA17D8M

 Sweet video, but the average uprightness quotient is a quamtum (new
 metric) measure above anything on the Rivendell site.

 I notice too how many of the riders lunge their torsos forward to get
 torque.

 Patrick butt back and torso inclined Moore

 --
 Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
 By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
 Other professional writing services.
 http://www.resumespecialties.com/
 Patrick Moore
 Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

 *
   * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to
 never was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from
 it. Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
 * Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
 look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
 it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
 somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
 daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
 all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
 any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
 because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
 in your time and your body can they be?*
  * Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
 Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
 Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
 you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *

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-- 
Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, and letters that get interviews.
By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
Other professional writing services.
http://www.resumespecialties.com/
Patrick Moore
Albuquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten

*
  * Where you come from is gone, where you thought you were going to never
was there, and where you are is no good unless you can get away from it.
Where is there a place for you to be? No place.*
* Nothing outside you can give you any place, he said. You needn't to
look at the sky because it's not going to open up and show no place behind
it. You needn't to search for any hole in the ground to look through into
somewhere else. You can't go neither forwards nor backwards into your
daddy's time nor your children's if you have them. In yourself right now is
all the place you've got. If there was any Fall, look there, if there was
any Redemption, look there, and if you expect any Judgment, look there,
because they all three will have to be in your time and your body and where
in your time and your body can they be?*
* Where in your time and your body has Jesus redeemed you? he cried.
Show me where because I don't see the place. If there was a place where
Jesus had redeemed you that would be the place for you to be, but which of
you can find it?” -- *Flannery O'Connor,* Wise Blood  *

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[RBW] Re: Upright Riding Saddles.

[EGNolan]

I had the same problem with an already WELL broken in b17. I went to a less 
broken in b17 narrow, which I didn't think would work because it was 
narrow, but it's what I had. It worked well after it was broken in, 
possibly because of the angles used while breaking it in. If you don't 
think the B17 is wide enough for comfort, go B68. 
 
Best,
Eric
Indpls

On Monday, April 7, 2014 7:37:47 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:

 Coupla photos of said bike. Rides like a dream. I tilted the nose up a 
 bit, but still would feel like a wider saddle would be comfier. Will 
 experiment. This wonderfully broken in B17 will be transferred over to my 
 Redwood as it's very comfortable with drops.
 David
 Chicago


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[RBW] Re: Upright Riding Saddles.

[WETH]

Another vote for the Brooks B68.  I have one and both of my sons ride 
them.  The B68 is hard to find.  I have purchased my last two from Public 
Bikes http://publicbikes.com/p/Brooks-B68-Seat  They still seem to have 
some black ones in stock at closeout prices.  

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:07:23 AM UTC-4, EGNolan wrote:

 I had the same problem with an already WELL broken in b17. I went to a 
 less broken in b17 narrow, which I didn't think would work because it was 
 narrow, but it's what I had. It worked well after it was broken in, 
 possibly because of the angles used while breaking it in. If you don't 
 think the B17 is wide enough for comfort, go B68. 
  
 Best,
 Eric
 Indpls

 On Monday, April 7, 2014 7:37:47 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:

 Coupla photos of said bike. Rides like a dream. I tilted the nose up a 
 bit, but still would feel like a wider saddle would be comfier. Will 
 experiment. This wonderfully broken in B17 will be transferred over to my 
 Redwood as it's very comfortable with drops.
 David
 Chicago



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[RBW] Re: Upright Riding Saddles.

[Ron Mc]

what Weth said - grab it while you can...

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:09:41 AM UTC-5, WETH wrote:

 Another vote for the Brooks B68.  I have one and both of my sons ride 
 them.  The B68 is hard to find.  I have purchased my last two from Public 
 Bikes http://publicbikes.com/p/Brooks-B68-Seat  They still seem to have 
 some black ones in stock at closeout prices.  

 On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:07:23 AM UTC-4, EGNolan wrote:

 I had the same problem with an already WELL broken in b17. I went to a 
 less broken in b17 narrow, which I didn't think would work because it was 
 narrow, but it's what I had. It worked well after it was broken in, 
 possibly because of the angles used while breaking it in. If you don't 
 think the B17 is wide enough for comfort, go B68. 
  
 Best,
 Eric
 Indpls

 On Monday, April 7, 2014 7:37:47 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:

 Coupla photos of said bike. Rides like a dream. I tilted the nose up a 
 bit, but still would feel like a wider saddle would be comfier. Will 
 experiment. This wonderfully broken in B17 will be transferred over to my 
 Redwood as it's very comfortable with drops.
 David
 Chicago



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[RBW] Re: Upright Riding Saddles.

[Joe Bernard]

One caveat about the B68 is that the width tends to push you forward on the 
saddle relative to a B17. Not a big deal, but if your B17-to-bar distance 
is just right, the 68 will feel as if you scooted forward a centimeter too 
close. It's not noticeable until you get to pedaling and realize the backs 
of your legs are pushing off the part where the saddle curves out to 
create that big platform at the back.

Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.

On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 10:26:51 AM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:

 what Weth said - grab it while you can...

 On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:09:41 AM UTC-5, WETH wrote:

 Another vote for the Brooks B68.  I have one and both of my sons ride 
 them.  The B68 is hard to find.  I have purchased my last two from Public 
 Bikes http://publicbikes.com/p/Brooks-B68-Seat  They still seem to have 
 some black ones in stock at closeout prices.  

 On Tuesday, April 8, 2014 11:07:23 AM UTC-4, EGNolan wrote:

 I had the same problem with an already WELL broken in b17. I went to a 
 less broken in b17 narrow, which I didn't think would work because it was 
 narrow, but it's what I had. It worked well after it was broken in, 
 possibly because of the angles used while breaking it in. If you don't 
 think the B17 is wide enough for comfort, go B68. 
  
 Best,
 Eric
 Indpls

 On Monday, April 7, 2014 7:37:47 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:

 Coupla photos of said bike. Rides like a dream. I tilted the nose up a 
 bit, but still would feel like a wider saddle would be comfier. Will 
 experiment. This wonderfully broken in B17 will be transferred over to my 
 Redwood as it's very comfortable with drops.
 David
 Chicago



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[RBW] Re: Upright Riding Saddles.

[Joe Bernard]

I use a B68 which has seen duty on several uprighty bikes I've owned. It's 
wide, flat and comfy as a couch even before break-in. Riv only sells the 
sprung B67 version, which may be overkill for your application. I've heard 
the springless 68 is out of production now, but I'm sure you can find one 
somewhere (Wallbike maybe).
 
Joe Bernard
Vallejo, CA.
 
On Saturday, April 5, 2014 6:48:20 PM UTC-7, David Banzer wrote:

 With a Redwood now in the house, I'm re-purposing my Schwinn Voyageur as 
 an upright-ish commuter. Plan is to swap in Albas or Bosco's at some point. 
 Wald 867 are working as nice placesavers for the time being.

 Problem is: My once perfectly comfy B17 is no longer so comfy when sitting 
 semi-upright. 

 So... what saddles are folks riding with Bosco bars?
 Prefer to stick to leather saddles.

 Thanks,
 David
 Chicago


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