Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 3:23:12 PM UTC-7, Michael_S wrote:
that's an easy fix... dump that crabby fiber fork and get a real steel
one. Fat tire problem solved
What?! You want me to ADD weight to my bike? :) I suppose its possible, but
are there really alot of people who dump their carbon forks for steel
ones? ;) ! Good Luck!
~mike
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:52:14 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:42:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his
27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the
rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the
front. If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from
his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper. But clearly this frame
was built as a road racer and not a touring frame. I let him get in front
at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us @ 24 mph
for 13 miles.
I've been riding 700x25 tires for the last 7 or 8 years. When I first
started, most of my friends were on 20s and 23s. I usually run my 25s @
85-90psi; my friends' tires varied from 100-130psi! They all use to laugh
at me as you could actually see a size difference - my tires were
noticeably fatter. Now, things have changed, most have given up 20s and
many have gone to 25s. My advantage is pretty much gone. Maybe its time
to try 28swhich basically isn't going to happen as my carbon fork won't
allow anything fatter than 25s...Good Luck!
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:10:28 PM UTC-5,
LyleBogart{AT}gmail.comwrote:
H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . .
On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john1...@gmail.com wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred
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Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 11:48:03 AM UTC-7, Patrick Moore wrote: who still thinks that skinny supple tires are better than fat stiff ones. I think that is easily overlooked. Given a choice between a 25 mm Vittoria Open CX Corsa and a 35 mm Schwalbe Marathon, I know I'd pick the skinny tire, because it's both faster and more comfortable. Casing construction trumps width by a great margin. When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep the casing the same. A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide tires in the future. Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/e2UVTnsTrNsJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 08:59 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep the casing the same. A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide tires in the future. If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls? Toshi On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:11 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
I agree, Steve. Fast, supple, puncture resistant. . . that'd be delightful. On 19 October 2012 12:11, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 08:59 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep the casing the same. A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide tires in the future. If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:17 -0700, Toshi Takeuchi wrote: Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls? I'm not even sure what weak sidewalls means. I'm using several different tires that are all assuredly fast and supple, including Grand Bois Cypres, Grand Bois Hetre and Challenge Parigi Roubaix. I've used many other brands and types of tires over the years, and the only time I've ever had an issue with a sidewall it was when a centerpull caliper arm froze, the other arm did all the moving, and the brake pad moved up to contact the sidewall and wore it through. How strong does a sidewall need to be? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
As somebody who sells bike stuff to the general public, I can testify that the notion that every bike or part or accessory choice comes with a set of compromises is generally not easy to accept for many cyclists (especially those who just have one bike). I'd personally take the 35 mm Marathons over the 25 mm race tire any day, because traction, flotation, and durability over widely varied terrain is more important to me than speed/efficiency on pavement. Others have different priorities. But I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find that some middle ground is suitable. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/Vhk8lBzGJYUJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:33 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find that some middle ground is suitable. Many are willing to accept 2,000 miles per tire for a high performance event tire. Most racing 23mm tires will give less than 2,000 miles service life. And there's a wide range of acceptable puncture resistance. Some, indeed many, find the level of puncture resistance provided by the Grand Bois Cypres to be entirely acceptable, while others demand far more and find the Cypres to be unacceptably puncture prone. Some of this may depend on local riding conditions: if your rides are entirely on glass and trash-strewn roads, or if you live in goathead country, a tire that gives a flat per thousand miles on clean roads may give you a flat every five miles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Friday, October 19, 2012 9:11:23 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. In fact, wide tires can meet all three demands... a) Fast: We now know that a wider tire is faster (up to a point) or at least no slower than a narrower one, if you keep the casing and tread the same. b) Puncture Resistance: Wider tires are more puncture-resistant, because they run at lower pressures. c) Cheap: The important variable is price per mile, and a wider tire always will be cheaper, because it lasts so much longer, since the wear is spread over more rubber. I don't want to sound like I am advertising here, but the 650B x 42 mm Grand Bois Hetre meets all your criteria. It is one of the fastest tires on the market. It gets far less punctures than almost any tire you can buy (most of us average one puncture per 8000 miles). And it lasts at least 4000 miles, compared to less than 2000 for most 25 mm tires. There are few win-win-win situations in physics, but this is one of them. (The disadvantages of wide tireshttp://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/the-downsides-of-wide-tires/are too small to make a difference in most riding.) Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/ryPskALs9WkJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
I agree, Steve, if we're talking about tire connoisseurs (i.e. many people reading this group), that some are willing to use a no-compromise tire. Among 95% of my usual clientèle, however, a tire that is somewhat delicate for the sake of efficiency is a deal-breaker. No matter how nicely a tire rolls, most less-than-obsessive cyclists will pronounce it junk if it gets a flat under any circumstances. Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are bomb-proof (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof tire. On Friday, October 19, 2012 11:42:34 AM UTC-5, Steve Palincsar wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:33 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find that some middle ground is suitable. Many are willing to accept 2,000 miles per tire for a high performance event tire. Most racing 23mm tires will give less than 2,000 miles service life. And there's a wide range of acceptable puncture resistance. Some, indeed many, find the level of puncture resistance provided by the Grand Bois Cypres to be entirely acceptable, while others demand far more and find the Cypres to be unacceptably puncture prone. Some of this may depend on local riding conditions: if your rides are entirely on glass and trash-strewn roads, or if you live in goathead country, a tire that gives a flat per thousand miles on clean roads may give you a flat every five miles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/sf6R90ODnAwJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
I haven't tried the Hetres, but one of these days I'll put together a 650B bike and try them. I've heard lots of good stuff, but didn't realize how durable they're proving to be. On Friday, October 19, 2012 12:19:15 PM UTC-5, Jan Heine wrote: On Friday, October 19, 2012 9:11:23 AM UTC-7, Steve Palincsar wrote: If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. In fact, wide tires can meet all three demands... a) Fast: We now know that a wider tire is faster (up to a point) or at least no slower than a narrower one, if you keep the casing and tread the same. b) Puncture Resistance: Wider tires are more puncture-resistant, because they run at lower pressures. c) Cheap: The important variable is price per mile, and a wider tire always will be cheaper, because it lasts so much longer, since the wear is spread over more rubber. I don't want to sound like I am advertising here, but the 650B x 42 mm Grand Bois Hetre meets all your criteria. It is one of the fastest tires on the market. It gets far less punctures than almost any tire you can buy (most of us average one puncture per 8000 miles). And it lasts at least 4000 miles, compared to less than 2000 for most 25 mm tires. There are few win-win-win situations in physics, but this is one of them. (The disadvantages of wide tireshttp://janheine.wordpress.com/2012/01/30/the-downsides-of-wide-tires/are too small to make a difference in most riding.) Jan Heine Editor Bicycle Quarterly http://www.bikequarterly.com Follow our blog at http://janheine.wordpress.com/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/IBOjLe8HlbwJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
I don't know how strong they need to be, but my impression is that Grant prefers tires with stronger sidewalls--presumably because they are safer? I am a fan of high performance tires for event rides. The Pari-moto tires are fantastic. I also have Grand Bois Cypres for my 700c bike. For everyday riding, I don't need high performance. More resistance and weight is fine, but more comfort is always welcomed. If I can get more sidewall cut resistance/flat resistance and high performance, then that would be great. What tires are a good compromise? Not necessarily the highest performance, but a good balance of these other traits? How much of a difference do the kevlar/aramid/other strips make in terms of flat resistance? Grant asks (something like), Why can't I run a tire with stiffer sidewalls at lower pressure and still get good performance? --In terms of performance, anytime you flex the thicker casing, there will be an energy loss (you need to take the kinetic energy of bike motion and convert it to mechanical energy to flex the casing) and therefore (it stands to reason) it should result in a speed/performance loss. However, in terms of ride comfort, I think Grant has a good point. At lower pressures, the casing will flex and absorb the shock from the road, and the ride should be just as comfortable. I would find it hard pressed to believe that a 25 mm tire will be as comfortable as a 35 or 38mm tire at lower pressures (and stiffer sidewalls). (In terms of performance there is no doubt...) Toshi On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 9:29 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:17 -0700, Toshi Takeuchi wrote: Does supple tire automatically mean weak sidewalls? How strong does a sidewall need to be? -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 10:24 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: I agree, Steve, if we're talking about tire connoisseurs (i.e. many people reading this group), that some are willing to use a no-compromise tire. Among 95% of my usual clientèle, however, a tire that is somewhat delicate for the sake of efficiency is a deal-breaker. No matter how nicely a tire rolls, most less-than-obsessive cyclists will pronounce it junk if it gets a flat under any circumstances. Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are bomb-proof (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof tire. I routinely see people with high end ($6,000 and up) carbon racing bikes sporting Armadillo tires because they fear and hate flats. I've never used a 23mm Armadillo, but I did once try 38mm Armadillos on my commuter... and took them off and threw them away after 2 weeks because they rode so bad. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 10:27 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: I haven't tried the Hetres, but one of these days I'll put together a 650B bike and try them. I've heard lots of good stuff, but didn't realize how durable they're proving to be. For me, flat resistant, comfortable, long lasting and fast, too. If you haven't tried Hetres, you should do. They definitely are something special. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Oct 19, 2012, at 12:24 PM, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: Even some of the most racer-ish cyclists will proudly boast that their lightweight tires/rims/whatever are bomb-proof (I cringe to type that), until they get a flat, which sends them in search of yet another lightweight, fast, flat-proof tire. This has been part of the high-performance marketing strategy for years. Sell an expensive unsuitable product (imagine 230 lbs me on a 15 lb wunderbike with all the latest unobtanium bling) and, when it fails, lure them to buy a more expensive and no more suitable replacement product. Lather, rinse, repeat. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
There are some that come close, at least. I don't know about the Compass tires -- perhaps they fit your bill -- but the Kojak is light (at least with Kevlar bead), supple, fast, and my new, warranteed 559X1.35 wire beads claim Level 4 flat protection whatever that means. Just got back from a very nice mixed terrain ride with listmember and Santa Fean Tim Whelan, both on Fargos, me with my Big Apple wheelset. The BA wheelset is a dog compared to my Riv wheelsets but I was once again pleasantly surprised at how well it rolled on the Santa Fe rollers. Sketchy in loose stuff but quite nice on pavement. Thanks to them I managed to keep up with Tim on his knobbies. On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 10:19 AM, Lyle Bogart lylebog...@gmail.com wrote: I agree, Steve. Fast, supple, puncture resistant. . . that'd be delightful. On 19 October 2012 12:11, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 08:59 -0700, Jan Heine wrote: When you look at our tire first tests, the three fastest tires measured 24, 25 and 38 mm wide. The slowest tires were 33 mm wide. The correlation between width and speed/comfort applies only if you keep the casing the same. A good thing that will come out of this are more supple, fast wide tires in the future. If only there were a way to make a tire that was (a) fast and supple but also provided (b) decent resistance to punctures from small pieces of glass and sharp stone and long tread life. I guess while I'm at it I should also add, (c)and cheap. Unfortunately, I think that while (b) and (c) can go together, (a) and (b) tend to be mutually exclusive. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Vote early, vote often, vote Rhinoceros! http://tinyurl.com/d7muj2t - Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW http://resumespecialties.com/index.html - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
3500 fixed gear rear for a 650CX23 Conti Grand Prix; only 1,500 fixed rear for a 559X22 Turbo (much more in front, of course) but for me worth it for the ride. I probably under inflate, but I realized 20 years ago that the Turbos were particularly cushy for narrow tires if properly inflated. (I did go to the Kojaks on the 559 Riv but only because I carry loads on that bike.) On Fri, Oct 19, 2012 at 10:42 AM, Steve Palincsar palin...@his.com wrote: On Fri, 2012-10-19 at 09:33 -0700, Jim Thill - Hiawatha Cyclery wrote: I don't know anybody who wants a puncture-prone tire, or expensive tires that are worn to the threads after 2000 miles. Most of us find that some middle ground is suitable. Many are willing to accept 2,000 miles per tire for a high performance event tire. Most racing 23mm tires will give less than 2,000 miles service life. And there's a wide range of acceptable puncture resistance. Some, indeed many, find the level of puncture resistance provided by the Grand Bois Cypres to be entirely acceptable, while others demand far more and find the Cypres to be unacceptably puncture prone. Some of this may depend on local riding conditions: if your rides are entirely on glass and trash-strewn roads, or if you live in goathead country, a tire that gives a flat per thousand miles on clean roads may give you a flat every five miles. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- Vote early, vote often, vote Rhinoceros! http://tinyurl.com/d7muj2t - Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW http://resumespecialties.com/index.html - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
This news is pretty amazing if you remember what the bike and tire situation was like 10 to 15 years ago. Kudos to both of them! Patrick my 650c Michelin Pro Race 3 23s were on sale, and now I know why (but they are acceptably cushy at 85/90--90/95 or so) Moore, who will switcth to, say, 26s to 28s if the come out in that range, and who still thinks that skinny supple tires are better than fat stiff ones. On Thu, Oct 18, 2012 at 9:49 AM, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- Vote early, vote often, vote Rhinoceros! http://tinyurl.com/d7muj2t - Patrick Moore, Albuquerque, NM, USA For professional resumes, contact Patrick Moore, ACRW http://resumespecialties.com/index.html - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . . On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/A3IF1cmrg0YJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
RE: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion! Let's start wide with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . . On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.commailto:john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/A3IF1cmrg0YJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
You think? See, I was thinking of the floor (size-wise) as something like Grand Bois Cypres at 32, then getting properly wide at something like the Schwalbe Marathons at 47. . . not quite fat, but certainly wide. . . maybe, though. . . seems a matter of indeterminacy: certainly 23 and 25 aren't wide. But 28? 29? They seem a bit of a cusp-species to me :) On 18 October 2012 15:21, Marc Schwartz mschw...@nmsu.edu wrote: Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion! Let's start wide with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . . On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.commailto: john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/A3IF1cmrg0YJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his
27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the
rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the
front. If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from
his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper. But clearly this frame
was built as a road racer and not a touring frame. I let him get in front
at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us @ 24 mph
for 13 miles.
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:10:28 PM UTC-5, LyleBogart{AT}gmail.com
wrote:
H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . .
On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john1...@gmail.com javascript:wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred
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Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Thu, 2012-10-18 at 13:42 -0700, Ron Mc wrote: It does sound strange to call 25 wider... It's all a matter of context. 25 /is/ wider when it come to racing tires and racing frames. There are plenty of racing frames that don't have room for a 25mm tire. And the extra width can have a huge impact on pressure: a 200 lb rider would have to run a 23mm tire at 120 psi, but can use 90-95 with a 25. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:42:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his
27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the
rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the
front. If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from
his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper. But clearly this frame
was built as a road racer and not a touring frame. I let him get in front
at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us @ 24 mph
for 13 miles.
I've been riding 700x25 tires for the last 7 or 8 years. When I first
started, most of my friends were on 20s and 23s. I usually run my 25s @
85-90psi; my friends' tires varied from 100-130psi! They all use to laugh
at me as you could actually see a size difference - my tires were
noticeably fatter. Now, things have changed, most have given up 20s and
many have gone to 25s. My advantage is pretty much gone. Maybe its time
to try 28swhich basically isn't going to happen as my carbon fork won't
allow anything fatter than 25s...Good Luck!
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:10:28 PM UTC-5, LyleBogart{AT}gmail.comwrote:
H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . .
On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john1...@gmail.com wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred
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156 bradford rd
wiscasset, me 04578
207.882.6494
206.794.6937
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RE: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
True, maybe, but I wanted to include Rams (w/fenders), some Riv Roads, RB1s, Raleigh Intls, and other cool old road bikes in our Wide Tire Lovers' Society rather than to be some mean ol' He-Man Skinny Tire Haters' Club** by cutting with too sharp of a knife. 'Tis more the attitude with which thou ridest, methinks! **(apologies to Spanky, Buckwheat, Froggie, and the rest) Love, Peace, and Understanding, Marc From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:46 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? You think? See, I was thinking of the floor (size-wise) as something like Grand Bois Cypres at 32, then getting properly wide at something like the Schwalbe Marathons at 47. . . not quite fat, but certainly wide. . . maybe, though. . . seems a matter of indeterminacy: certainly 23 and 25 aren't wide. But 28? 29? They seem a bit of a cusp-species to me :) On 18 October 2012 15:21, Marc Schwartz mschw...@nmsu.edumailto:mschw...@nmsu.edu wrote: Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion! Let's start wide with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lylebog...@gmail.commailto:lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . . On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.commailto:john11.2...@gmail.commailto:john11.2...@gmail.commailto:john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/A3IF1cmrg0YJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%252bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494tel:207.882.6494 206.794.6937tel:206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494tel:207.882.6494 206.794.6937tel:206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
Fair enough, methinks! On 18 October 2012 16:53, Marc Schwartz mschw...@nmsu.edu wrote: True, maybe, but I wanted to include Rams (w/fenders), some Riv Roads, RB1s, Raleigh Intls, and other cool old road bikes in our Wide Tire Lovers' Society rather than to be some mean ol' He-Man Skinny Tire Haters' Club** by cutting with too sharp of a knife. 'Tis more the attitude with which thou ridest, methinks! **(apologies to Spanky, Buckwheat, Froggie, and the rest) Love, Peace, and Understanding, Marc From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:46 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? You think? See, I was thinking of the floor (size-wise) as something like Grand Bois Cypres at 32, then getting properly wide at something like the Schwalbe Marathons at 47. . . not quite fat, but certainly wide. . . maybe, though. . . seems a matter of indeterminacy: certainly 23 and 25 aren't wide. But 28? 29? They seem a bit of a cusp-species to me :) On 18 October 2012 15:21, Marc Schwartz mschw...@nmsu.edumailto: mschw...@nmsu.edu wrote: Inclusion, Lyle, inclusion! Let's start wide with Rolly-Pollys, Cerfs, and Paris-Roubaixs From: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com [rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com] on behalf of Lyle Bogart [ lylebog...@gmail.commailto:lylebog...@gmail.com] Sent: Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:10 PM To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now? H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . . On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john11.2...@gmail.commailto: john11.2...@gmail.commailto:john11.2...@gmail.commailto: john11.2...@gmail.com wrote: Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?! http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/A3IF1cmrg0YJ. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.commailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com . To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%252bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494tel:207.882.6494 206.794.6937tel:206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com mailto:rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.commailto: rbw-owners-bunch%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494tel:207.882.6494 206.794.6937tel:206.794.6937 -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en. -- lyle f bogart dpt 156 bradford rd wiscasset, me 04578 207.882.6494 206.794.6937 -- You
Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
that's an easy fix... dump that crabby fiber fork and get a real steel one.
Fat tire problem solved
~mike
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:52:14 PM UTC-7, Brewster Fong wrote:
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 1:42:54 PM UTC-7, Ron Mc wrote:
It does sound strange to call 25 wider, but my buddy just rebuilt his
27-y-o Mercian into upright, and while he can fit a 28 commuter tire on the
rear with no worries, he's having problems with 25 a commuter tire on the
front. If he gets anywhere near the recommended pressure, the bulge from
his weight pushes the tire into the brake caliper. But clearly this frame
was built as a road racer and not a touring frame. I let him get in front
at the end of a ride last weekend, though, and he was pacing us @ 24 mph
for 13 miles.
I've been riding 700x25 tires for the last 7 or 8 years. When I first
started, most of my friends were on 20s and 23s. I usually run my 25s @
85-90psi; my friends' tires varied from 100-130psi! They all use to laugh
at me as you could actually see a size difference - my tires were
noticeably fatter. Now, things have changed, most have given up 20s and
many have gone to 25s. My advantage is pretty much gone. Maybe its time
to try 28swhich basically isn't going to happen as my carbon fork won't
allow anything fatter than 25s...Good Luck!
On Thursday, October 18, 2012 2:10:28 PM UTC-5,
LyleBogart{AT}gmail.comwrote:
H. . . I thought wider began at 32mm. . .
On 18 October 2012 11:49, lungimsam john1...@gmail.com wrote:
Even race frames are being changed to accomodate wider tires now?!?!?!
http://www.roadbikerider.com/ask-coach-fred
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lyle f bogart dpt
156 bradford rd
wiscasset, me 04578
207.882.6494
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Re: [RBW] Jan and Grant starting a wide tire revolution among racers now?
And here all this time, I've been s smug about my Ruffy Tuffys (28s) and how I don't fall for all that idiotic racer boy stuff. How am I gonna keep my self-righteous attitude if real racers are using 28s? How dare they! Reid -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups RBW Owners Bunch group. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/-/j7aG9gMJuk0J. To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
