Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-16 Thread cyclotourist 
Follow up with my observatin' on the clamping area.  The VO is significantly
smaller clamping area @
28mmend
to end.  The Nitto
has 40mm , Thomson
42mm  and an older Campy
Chorus a whopping 47mm
distance.
Either the other manufacturers are seriously overbuilding their clamps, or
VO is in for a lot of bad press when rails start a' snappin'.



On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 10:09 PM, cyclotourist wrote:

> I got one of those for Xmas, and really like the two bolt design.  I am
> worried about the clamping area as it seems much narrower than a Nitto,
> Thomspon, or brand X clamp.  Seems like it could concentrate vibrations over
> a smaller area and lead to fatigue on the saddle rails.  Time will tell...
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 10:06 AM, NickBull wrote:
>
>> It's a little unclear just how much setback the Nitto lugged seatpost
>> has.  Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on
>> AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback,
>> so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of
>> setback.
>>
>> That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru
>> seatpost, 30.2mm.  I've been riding one of those for a little over a
>> month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost.  Much less expensive
>> than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course.
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>> On Jan 9, 6:19 pm, Mike S  wrote:
>> > Well, based on that near-certainty of bent rails based on what I want
>> > to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost & B17 combo is in
>> > order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend
>> > themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn
>> > from experience.
>> >
>> > Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who
>> > can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost?
>> >
>> > On Jan 9, 4:58 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
>> >
>> > > No Bomba in my stable!
>> >
>> > > It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back,
>> > > a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old
>> > > American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails.
>> > > As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a
>> > > different post and a less extreme position.
>> >
>> > > Jason,
>> >
>> > > If the mfg. says "don't do this" and you do anyway, don't you own some
>> > > responsibility for the results?
>> >
>> > > Bill
>> >
>> > > On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson 
>> > > wrote:
>> >
>> > > > On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
>> >
>> > > > > "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in
>> the
>> > > > > past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These
>> first
>> > > > > happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme
>> riding.
>> > > > ...
>> > > > > They aren't kidding.  Ask how I know...
>> >
>> > > > Hucking your Bombadil?
>> >
>> > > >  Philip
>> >
>> > > >  Philip Williamsonwww.biketinker.com
>>
>> --
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>> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com.
>> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
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>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Cheers,
> David
> Redlands, CA
>
> *...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
> probably benefit more from
> improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS
>
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

*...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS

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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-12 Thread JimD 


Goes on my interwebs wisdom list.

All I'll ever need to know about finding the right seat.
-JImD

On Jan 12, 2011, at 8:52 AM  Jan 12, 2011, Justin August wrote:


Butts are like opinions. Everyone has one and they're all different.


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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-11 Thread cyclotourist 
I got one of those for Xmas, and really like the two bolt design.  I am
worried about the clamping area as it seems much narrower than a Nitto,
Thomspon, or brand X clamp.  Seems like it could concentrate vibrations over
a smaller area and lead to fatigue on the saddle rails.  Time will tell...

On Tue, Jan 11, 2011 at 10:06 AM, NickBull  wrote:

> It's a little unclear just how much setback the Nitto lugged seatpost
> has.  Rivendell says it has 15mm more than the Crystal Fellow, and on
> AEBike's website, it says that the Crystal Fellow has 14mm of setback,
> so that would imply that the lugged seatpost has around 30mm of
> setback.
>
> That's the same amount of setback as the Velo Orange Grand Cru
> seatpost, 30.2mm.  I've been riding one of those for a little over a
> month and it is a really nice 2-bolt seatpost.  Much less expensive
> than the Nitto, though not as blingy of course.
>
> Nick
>
>
> On Jan 9, 6:19 pm, Mike S  wrote:
> > Well, based on that near-certainty of bent rails based on what I want
> > to do, it seems another $150 Nitto S-84 seatpost & B17 combo is in
> > order for me. It is strange that S.A would design rails that lend
> > themselves to failure-inducing experiments, but I'm glad I can learn
> > from experience.
> >
> > Life shure is tougher for us long-legged, long-armed dudes... but who
> > can whine about having a fancy lugged seatpost?
> >
> > On Jan 9, 4:58 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
> >
> > > No Bomba in my stable!
> >
> > > It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back,
> > > a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old
> > > American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails.
> > > As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a
> > > different post and a less extreme position.
> >
> > > Jason,
> >
> > > If the mfg. says "don't do this" and you do anyway, don't you own some
> > > responsibility for the results?
> >
> > > Bill
> >
> > > On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson 
> > > wrote:
> >
> > > > On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
> >
> > > > > "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in
> the
> > > > > past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
> > > > > happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme
> riding.
> > > > ...
> > > > > They aren't kidding.  Ask how I know...
> >
> > > > Hucking your Bombadil?
> >
> > > >  Philip
> >
> > > >  Philip Williamsonwww.biketinker.com
>
> --
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>
>


-- 
Cheers,
David
Redlands, CA

*...in terms of recreational cycling there are many riders who would
probably benefit more from
improving their taste than from improving their performance.* - RTMS

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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-10 Thread Rene Sterental 
Great review Rob.

A natural/steel Berthoud Touring saddle is now on its way to me and I'll
soon find out if I'll be keeping it and putting all my almost new B-17
saddles on sale or sending it back. Wallinford's 6 month return guarantee is
great to try such an expensive saddle.

Stay tuned... :-)

René

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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-09 Thread Jason Hartman 
It's a problem with the saddle's design.
If they don't want it pushed that far back, then they should
make it so it does not go that far back.

Say I came up with some new big water bottle that still fit
in a regular cage, but could hold a gallon of water.
Then I sold a bunch of them and some of them cracked
and leaked when filled to capacity.

Would it then be OK to keep selling the bottles as long as I
sent a disclaimer saying "It says one gallon, but it's really
only good for three quarts. Furthermore, if you need more than
three quarts, then maybe you should examine your whole water
carrying system"?

Jay Hartman


On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 4:58 PM, Bill M.  wrote:

> No Bomba in my stable!
>
> It didn't take anything extreme, just having the saddle too far back,
> a seatpost clamp that didn't support the rails properly (an old
> American Classic) and my 180 lb body were enough to bend the rails.
> As I said, I bent them back and I still ride the saddle, but with a
> different post and a less extreme position.
>
> Jason,
>
> If the mfg. says "don't do this" and you do anyway, don't you own some
> responsibility for the results?
>
> Bill
>
> On Jan 9, 9:33 am, Philip Williamson 
> wrote:
> > On Jan 8, 9:49 pm, "Bill M."  wrote:
> >
> > > "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
> > > past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
> > > happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
> > ...
> > > They aren't kidding.  Ask how I know...
> >
> > Hucking your Bombadil?
> >
> >  Philip
> >
> >  Philip Williamsonwww.biketinker.com
>
> --
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> "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
> To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
> To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
> .
> For more options, visit this group at
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>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-09 Thread Jason Hartman 
It's not the customer's fault if the saddle breaks or bends when
being pushed back as far as it will go. If S-A does not want anyone
doing it, they should make the adjustable part of the rails shorter.

Jay Hartman


On Sun, Jan 9, 2011 at 12:49 AM, Bill M.  wrote:

> Mike,
>
> The S-A can indeed be mounted pretty far back, but the mfg warns
> against it:
>
> "Bent Frame Wire - A small number of saddles have been replaced in the
> past two years due to frame wire bending during a ride. These first
> happened exclusively with mountain bike riders doing extreme riding.
> The majority of the frames that bent were using Thompson seat posts,
> and others like them with the rail clamp centered over the top of the
> seat post tube, and on seat posts with very short clamps. Many who
> managed to bend rails also had their saddle set back as far as it will
> go. The riders have been men and women of various weights on Standard
> & Clydesdale models. The population of damaged saddles is so very
> small we are at a loss to identify a cause. Engineers examine
> offending saddles as they are returned. We replace these saddles with
> the caveat that the rider use a seat post with longer section clamp
> and more setback in the clamp. Anyone riding a saddle set back as far
> as it will go on our rails is likely on a poorly fitting bike frame.
> If your frame fits you appropriately, if the handlebars are properly
> positioned (not too far away and too far down as is too common), and
> if you have a well engineered seat post, your saddle will be
> positioned in the middle of the rails. See the Seat Post section in
> our Saddle & Handlebar Adjustment Procedure pamphlet that comes with
> each saddle."
>
> They aren't kidding.  Ask how I know...
>
> Bill
>
> On Jan 8, 7:06 pm, Mike S  wrote:
> > Also, an issue in my saddle selection is fore-aft adjustment. I wanted
> > to try the Selle An-Atomica because it seems it can mounted much
> > further back than a B.17, which I need on the bike it is for that has
> > a too-short top tube. I would rather have the problem solved by a
> > saddle than another $150 lugged nitto wayback post. How do the rails
> > on the Berthoud compare with a B.17 and S.A?
> >
> > On Jan 8, 9:40 pm, Mike S  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > > I just bought a Selle An-Atomica LD Clydesdale saddle, mainly because
> > > it was on sale for $133 and I'm intrigued by the design and that it's
> > > MUSA. I'm wondering if I may have made a mistake by choosing this
> > > saddle over the Berthoud, which I considered but deemed not worthy of
> > > the higher cost.
> >
> > > I've been riding a B.17 for about 3000 miles so far and it seems to be
> > > in real good shape and I am very comfortable on a B.17, but I'm
> > > wondering if there is something better. My primary concerns are a ride
> > > that is of maximum comfort, and I also want outstanding durability.
> > > Can any Selle An-Atomica users vouch for it's longevity, and can
> > > anyone compare the two (Berthoud & S.A)?
> >
> > > Although the B.17 has served me well so far, I am a little worried
> > > about the longevity with a post-acquisition saddle, and I'm also
> > > generally always looking for gear improvements. Is the verdict that
> > > the Gilles Berthoud is the best bang for the buck, despite the higher
> > > cost?
> >
> > > Also, my riding is always with the handlebars a few centimeters higher
> > > than the saddle.
> >
> > > On Jan 8, 2:27 pm, Lee  wrote:
> >
> > > > Hey Rene. I just got mine in. Here's a brief visual comparison of the
> > > > saddle vis-a-vis a B-17 Champion Special:
> >
> > > >http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
> >
> > > > I've been slowly accumulating parts to upgrade my distance bike. The
> > > > Aspin will replace a Selle An-Atomica, which will go to my
> saddle-less
> > > > camping/utility bike. I had been switching my B-17S between my
> > > > commuter (the Quickbeam) and the utility bike.
> >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Lee
> >
> > > > On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, Rene Sterental  wrote:
> >
> > > > > Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
> > > > > like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
> > > > > forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
> >
> > > > > Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
> >
> > > > > René
> >
> > > > > Sent from my iPhone 4
> >
> > > > > On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
> >
> > > > > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper <
> tkslee...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > > > > >> Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't
> return it.   It
> > > > > >> looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a
> benefit if
> > > > > >> you buy thier saddle bags too.
> >
> > > > > >> I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have
> comfortable saddles
> > > > > >> now.
> >
> > > > > > wallbike.com
> >
> > > > > > 6month unconditional return guarantee.
> >
> > > > > > -sv
> >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > You received th

Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-09 Thread PATRICK MOORE 
Oh heck, since I refer to it so much, here is that section entire:

The Fore-Aft Saddle Position

Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a
bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right,
everything else is easy. This position is determined more by how you
intend to use your bike than by anything else. If you look at a
typical bike, the saddle is behind the crank center, or bottom
bracket. There's a frame tube (the seat tube) running from the cranks
to the saddle, and it's at an angle. That angle partly determines the
fore-aft position of the saddle relative to the cranks and pedals.
That fore-aft position determines how your body is balanced on the
bicycle. Your balance determines how comfortable you are, and how
efficiently you can pedal the bike.

Stand up straight in front of a mirror and turn to the side. Look at
yourself in the mirror. When standing straight your head, hands, seat
and feet are all fairly close to being in line with each other. Now
bend over at the waist. Notice that not only has your head moved to a
position ahead of your feet, but your rear end has moved behind your
feet. If this were not the case, you would fall forward. Your seat
moves back when you bend at the waist to keep you in balance.

Your torso needs to be leaning forward for two reasons; power output
and aerodynamics. With an upright torso, you can't use the gluteus
muscles to good effect. Also, you can't effectively pull up on the
handlebar from an upright position. An upright torso is also very poor
aerodynamically. When cycling on level ground, the majority of your
effort goes against wind resistance. The easier it is for your body to
move through the air, the less work you'll have to do. With your torso
closer to horizontal, you present less frontal surface to the air and
don't have to work as hard to maintain a given speed.

Obviously, the most aerodynamically efficient position may not be the
most pleasant position to be in for several hours on a cross country
tour. So there's a tradeoff. As you move to a more horizontal
position, the saddle needs to be positioned further to the rear to
maintain your body's balance, just as your rear end moves to the rear
as you bend over while standing. It so happens that racers are more
inclined to use a horizontal torso position than tourers, and racers
are more concerned with having the handlebars further forward to make
climbing and sprinting out of the saddle more effective.

If a bicycle had the saddle directly over the cranks, you wouldn't be
able to lean your body forward without supporting the weight of your
torso with your arms. Because the saddle on a typical bicycle is
behind the cranks, your seat is positioned behind your feet and your
body can be in balance. Try this test. You'll need a friend to hold
the bike up, or set it on a wind trainer. Sit on your bike with your
hands on the handlebars and the crank arms horizontal. If you have a
drop bar, hold the bar out on the brake hoods. Try taking your hands
off the bar without moving your torso. If it's a strain to hold your
torso in that same position, that's an indication of the work your
arms are doing to hold you up.

For starters, I like to put the saddle in the forward most position
that allows the rider to lift his hands off of the handlebar and
maintain the torso position without strain. You should not feel like
you're about to fall forward when you lift off the handlebar. If it
makes no difference to your back muscles whether you have your hands
on the bars or not, you know that you aren't using your arms to
support your upper body. If you are, your arms and shoulders will
surely get tired on a long ride. But this is a starting position.
Remember that bicycle fit is a series of compromises.

So what's being compromised? Power. There's a limit to how far you can
comfortably reach to the handlebar while seated. If the saddle is well
back for balance, the handlebars will need to be back as well. But to
get power to the pedals while out of the saddle, it helps to have the
handlebars well forward of the cranks. Particularly when climbing out
of the saddle, the best position tends to be had with a long forward
reach to the bars. You can tell this is so by climbing a hill out of
the saddle with your hands as far forward on the brake lever tops as
you can hold them, then climbing the same hill with your hands as far
to the rear as you can on the bars. Chances are you can climb faster
with your hands further forward. So you need to find the best
compromise between a comfortable seated position and reach to the
handlebar, and a forward handlebar position for those times when you
need to stand. Only an inch or two in handlebar placement fore-aft can
make a big difference while climbing. That same inch or two in saddle
position can mean the difference between a comfortable 50 mile ride
and a stiff neck and sore shoulders!

As you move the saddle forward from that balanced posi

Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-09 Thread PATRICK MOORE 
Mike: don't use your saddle position to adjust your bar position; do
it the other way 'round: get your saddle right and then get the stem
you need for the right bar position.

This will solve your saddle problem by, perhaps, transferring the
problem to the stem -- the last (Salsa) custom stems cost me about
$150, IIRC. Seriously, saddle position is the starting point of good
bike fit as the experts (not me, tho' I verified their wisdom in by my
own experience) including Grant always point out.

http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

"The Fore-Aft Saddle Position

Now we get to what I think is the most important part of fitting a
bicycle, the fore-aft position of the saddle. Once you get this right,
everything else is easy. ..."

On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 8:06 PM, Mike S  wrote:
> Also, an issue in my saddle selection is fore-aft adjustment. I wanted
> to try the Selle An-Atomica because it seems it can mounted much
> further back than a B.17, which I need on the bike it is for that has
> a too-short top tube. I would rather have the problem solved by a
> saddle than another $150 lugged nitto wayback post. How do the rails
> on the Berthoud compare with a B.17 and S.A?
>
> On Jan 8, 9:40 pm, Mike S  wrote:
>> I just bought a Selle An-Atomica LD Clydesdale saddle, mainly because
>> it was on sale for $133 and I'm intrigued by the design and that it's
>> MUSA. I'm wondering if I may have made a mistake by choosing this
>> saddle over the Berthoud, which I considered but deemed not worthy of
>> the higher cost.
>>
>> I've been riding a B.17 for about 3000 miles so far and it seems to be
>> in real good shape and I am very comfortable on a B.17, but I'm
>> wondering if there is something better. My primary concerns are a ride
>> that is of maximum comfort, and I also want outstanding durability.
>> Can any Selle An-Atomica users vouch for it's longevity, and can
>> anyone compare the two (Berthoud & S.A)?
>>
>> Although the B.17 has served me well so far, I am a little worried
>> about the longevity with a post-acquisition saddle, and I'm also
>> generally always looking for gear improvements. Is the verdict that
>> the Gilles Berthoud is the best bang for the buck, despite the higher
>> cost?
>>
>> Also, my riding is always with the handlebars a few centimeters higher
>> than the saddle.
>>
>> On Jan 8, 2:27 pm, Lee  wrote:
>>
>> > Hey Rene. I just got mine in. Here's a brief visual comparison of the
>> > saddle vis-a-vis a B-17 Champion Special:
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com/23eyb8o
>>
>> > I've been slowly accumulating parts to upgrade my distance bike. The
>> > Aspin will replace a Selle An-Atomica, which will go to my saddle-less
>> > camping/utility bike. I had been switching my B-17S between my
>> > commuter (the Quickbeam) and the utility bike.
>>
>> > Best,
>> > Lee
>>
>> > On Jan 7, 3:47 pm, Rene Sterental  wrote:
>>
>> > > Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
>> > > like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
>> > > forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>>
>> > > Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>>
>> > > René
>>
>> > > Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> > > On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>>
>> > > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper  
>> > > > wrote:
>>
>> > > >> Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return 
>> > > >> it.   It
>> > > >> looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a 
>> > > >> benefit if
>> > > >> you buy thier saddle bags too.
>>
>> > > >> I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable 
>> > > >> saddles
>> > > >> now.
>>
>> > > > wallbike.com
>>
>> > > > 6month unconditional return guarantee.
>>
>> > > > -sv
>>
>> > > > --
>> > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> > > > Groups "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
>> > > > To post to this group, send email to rbw-owners-bu...@googlegroups.com.
>> > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to 
>> > > > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
>> > > > For more options, visit this group 
>> > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/rbw-owners-bunch?hl=en.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-08 Thread omnigrid 
regarding b17 vs. berthoud touring...

are the rails longer on the berthoud...or just as short as on the b17?



On Sat, Jan 8, 2011 at 5:46 PM, JoelMatthews  wrote:

> > My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud
> because it is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
> >
> > JimP
>
> Jim:
>
> Berthoud is definitely a company very much in the French tradition -
> small, family run, not necessarily concerned about being the biggest
> or fastest to market.  at least in my opinion anyway, they make nice
> stuff.
>
> The Berthoud saddle does not look all that much like Ideale the
> classic French saddle I and some other posters mention.  It is a
> unique design whether that means it is uniquely French, I could not
> say.
>
>
> On Jan 7, 12:24 pm, jim phillips  wrote:
> > My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud
> because it is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
> >
> > JimP
> >
> >
> >
> > > Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:10:11 -0800
> > > Subject: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
> > > From: leec...@gmail.com
> > > To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> >
> > > Joel and Clayton:
> >
> > > I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
> > > than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
> > > to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
> > > Apsin?
> >
> > > Thanks,
> > > Lee
> > > San Francisco, CA
> >
> > > On Jan 7, 9:42 am, Clayton Scott  wrote:
> > > > I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt
> through
> > > > my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud
> touring
> > > > saddle.
> > > > I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is
> a
> > > > little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
> > > > room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
> > > > The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
> > > > Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot
> firmer. I did
> > > > ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the
> end I
> > > > did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
> > > > protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only
> started
> > > > setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and
> distracting
> > > > nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame
> of the
> > > > b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a
> 100
> > > > miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and
> I get
> > > > more used to eachother.
> > > > I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle
> for 60
> > > > days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
> >
> > > > Best,
> > > > Clayton Scott
> > > > SF, CA
> >
> > > > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, JoelMatthews 
> wrote:
> > > > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and
> didn't
> > > > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral
> wide
> > > > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > > > My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> > > > > saddles).  I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> > > > > comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
> >
> > > > > Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend
> to
> > > > > need frequent tightening.  Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and
> copy
> > > > > that model?
> >
> > > > > On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > > > > > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > > > > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or
> stored in
> > > > > > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work
> as
> > > > > > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
> >
> > > > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and
> didn't
> > > > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral
> wide
> > > > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > > > --
> > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-08 Thread Rene Sterental 
Yes it would... :-)

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Jan 7, 2011, at 4:10 PM, Montclair BobbyB  wrote:

> Rene:
>
> If the Berthoud works out, COULD this mean you may have a veritable
> arsenal of B17s available for sale???  (tee hee hee)
>
> Bobby "I've already bought a B17 from Rene" Birmingham
>
> On Jan 7, 6:47 pm, Rene Sterental  wrote:
>> Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
>> like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
>> forward. Always thought it should be flatter.
>>
>> Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.
>>
>> René
>>
>> Sent from my iPhone 4
>>
>> On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper  wrote:
>>
 Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return it.   
 It
 looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a benefit if
 you buy thier saddle bags too.
>>
 I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable saddles
 now.
>>
>>> wallbike.com
>>
>>> 6month unconditional return guarantee.
>>
>>> -sv
>>
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RE: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-08 Thread jim phillips 

My question is, put delicately, how many, if any. like the Berthoud because it 
is French, and, how many dislike it because it is French. Anyone?
 
JimP
 
> Date: Fri, 7 Jan 2011 10:10:11 -0800
> Subject: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring
> From: leec...@gmail.com
> To: rbw-owners-bunch@googlegroups.com
> 
> Joel and Clayton:
> 
> I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
> than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
> to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
> Apsin?
> 
> Thanks,
> Lee
> San Francisco, CA
> 
> On Jan 7, 9:42 am, Clayton Scott  wrote:
> > I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt through
> > my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring
> > saddle.
> > I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a
> > little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
> > room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
> > The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
> > Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I did
> > ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end I
> > did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
> > protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started
> > setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting
> > nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of the
> > b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100
> > miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I get
> > more used to eachother.
> > I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for 60
> > days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
> >
> > Best,
> > Clayton Scott
> > SF, CA
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, JoelMatthews  wrote:
> > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> > > saddles).  I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> > > comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
> >
> > > Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
> > > need frequent tightening.  Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
> > > that model?
> >
> > > On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> > > > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> > > > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
> >
> > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > --
> > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups
> > > "RBW Owners Bunch" group.
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> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to
> > > rbw-owners-bunch+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com
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> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Rene Sterental 
Thanks for all the responses. I'm ordering one tonight to try it. I
like the B17 except for its nose up position to prevent sliding
forward. Always thought it should be flatter.

Seems like the Berthoud Touring might make me completely happy.

René

Sent from my iPhone 4

On Jan 7, 2011, at 1:54 PM, Seth Vidal  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper  wrote:
>>
>> Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return it.   It
>> looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a benefit if
>> you buy thier saddle bags too.
>>
>> I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable saddles
>> now.
>>
>
> wallbike.com
>
> 6month unconditional return guarantee.
>
> -sv
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Seth Vidal 
On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 2:50 PM, Kelly Sleeper  wrote:
>
> Only reason I wouldn't try a 200 dollar saddle is if I can't return it.   It
> looks to me to be a very well made comfortable saddle that has a benefit if
> you buy thier saddle bags too.
>
> I would also out of desperation try it if I didn't have comfortable saddles
> now.
>

wallbike.com

6month unconditional return guarantee.

-sv

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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Clayton Scott 
Yes, just mount and tighten clamp.

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 10:10 AM, Lee  wrote:

> Joel and Clayton:
>
> I noticed that the rails appear a bit narrower on the Berthoud Aspin
> than on a B-17. Did you have to force the rails out a little to get it
> to fit your seatpost clamp? What seatposts have you tried with the
> Apsin?
>
> Thanks,
> Lee
> San Francisco, CA
>
> On Jan 7, 9:42 am, Clayton Scott  wrote:
> > I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt
> through
> > my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring
> > saddle.
> > I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a
> > little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
> > room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
> > The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
> > Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I
> did
> > ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end
> I
> > did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
> > protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started
> > setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting
> > nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of
> the
> > b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100
> > miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I
> get
> > more used to eachother.
> > I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for
> 60
> > days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.
> >
> > Best,
> > Clayton Scott
> > SF, CA
> >
> > On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, JoelMatthews 
> wrote:
> > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and
> didn't
> > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> > > saddles).  I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> > > comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
> >
> > > Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
> > > need frequent tightening.  Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
> > > that model?
> >
> > > On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > > > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored
> in
> > > > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> > > > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
> >
> > > > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and
> didn't
> > > > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > > > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
> >
> > > --
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> .
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Clayton Scott 
I have been using b.17s for while, but got frustrated when I burnt through
my last one in 7 months and went ahead and purchased a Berthoud touring
saddle.
I have only been using it for 2 months now but so far so good. It is a
little narrower than a b.17 but not in a bad way. Still has enough
room accommodate my sitbones. The shape seems perfect for me.
The craftsmanship is stunning compared to Brooks.
Compared to the now incredibly saggy brooks it does feel a lot firmer. I did
ride a 200k permanent within a few weeks of owning it and toward the end I
did have to ride out of the saddle occasionally to give my slightly
protesting sitbones some relief. It was not agonizing and only started
setting in during the last few miles but was noticeable and distracting
nevertheless. (Still significantly better than having the metal frame of the
b.17 dig into me though.). So far the Berthoud is perfect for up to a 100
miles and I expect it to get even more comfortable as the saddle and I get
more used to eachother.
I purchased mine from Rene Herse Bicycles who lets you try the saddle for 60
days and return it if you don't like it. I suggest you give it try.

Best,
Clayton Scott
SF, CA

On Fri, Jan 7, 2011 at 9:29 AM, JoelMatthews  wrote:

> > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
> My favorite Ideales are the 4 and 6 (the lightly sprung city
> saddles).  I think the aluminum frame Ideale used made for a more
> comfortable spring base than the heavier Brooks.
>
> Unfortunately, the leather is somewhat thin on them and they tend to
> need frequent tightening.  Wonder if Berthoud will ever try and copy
> that model?
>
> On Jan 7, 10:29 am, Steve Palincsar  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> > > Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> > > optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> > > well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.
> >
> > I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
> > work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
> > aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Steve Palincsar 
On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 08:12 -0800, JoelMatthews wrote:
> Unless you have an Ideale that has been well maintained - or stored in
> optimal conditions - it is not going to be as comfortable, work as
> well, or last as long as a modern Brooks or Berthoud.

I had an Ideale when it was new and it wasn't as comfortable and didn't
work as well as a B.17.  It was one of those with the integral wide
aluminum rails and the built-in micro-adjusting clamp.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Steve Palincsar 
On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 06:46 -0800, Montclair BobbyB wrote:
> Few things in life bring a smile to my face like a good discussion
> about the B17... 100+ year-old design, millions of miles... says an
> awful lot.

There's all sorts of evolution that's happened in the past 100 years,
but asses haven't changed at all.



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Re: [RBW] Re: Saddle comparison - Brooks B17 vs. Berthoud Touring

2011-01-07 Thread Steve Palincsar 
On Fri, 2011-01-07 at 06:24 -0800, Christian wrote:
> 
> I have direct experience.  While my B-17 was very comfortable it did
> not last.  I wore it out in about 4500 miles--it started sagging to
> one side and became asymmetrical.  So, it was really comfortable until
> it wasn't.  I have heard from many others--check out the discussions
> on the ibob list--that this is not uncommon.  Of course, you might buy
> one and have it last for 50,000 miles.

I have several B.17s, none new, with mileage in excess of 10,000 miles
and no asymmetric sagging.  Although some of these saddles were
purchased after the acquisition of Brooks, I believe they were all made
prior to that.  I'm not sure how common the problem is, but I've not
seen it in person, either on my saddles or other people's.


> I got a full refund as it was under warranty--it was only a year old--
> and purchased a Berthoud touring saddle from Mike Kone at Rene Herse
> in Boulder.  It's much harder initially than the B17; the leather is,
> by my imprecise calculations, at least twice as thick;


I recently got a Berthoud Touring and I agree, the leather seems to be
at least twice as thick as a B.l7.  I haven't ridden mine yet.



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