Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Well, he discounted air drag from fatter tires; but I think I find that
fatter, and taller too, tires slow me down in a strong headwind compared to
28s or 32s.

And big fat 29er knobbies definitely have more wind drag in headwinds!

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 5:48 PM, John Stowe  wrote:

> Jan's testing method involves actually riding down a road, so air
> resistance should play into his results - at least at testing speeds (wind
> drag rises with the square of velocity) - which is another reason to trust
> his results more than those from a smooth, stationary roller.
>
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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[John Stowe]

Jan's testing method involves actually riding down a road, so air resistance 
should play into his results - at least at testing speeds (wind drag rises with 
the square of velocity) - which is another reason to trust his results more 
than those from a smooth, stationary roller.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

On Tue, May 2, 2017 at 10:32 AM, panog  wrote:

> Actually 3 questions, if we add the "where to stop adding more suppleness
> to an already supple tire?".
>

True.

>
> [...] To me and my cycling exposure, the need for the extralight casings
>  is just noise; I do use open tubular type clinchers with supple walls and
> there I draw the line for a number of reasons. When and if I need lower
> rolling resistance then I use latex tubes.
>

I've used many less-than top quality road tires because my principal road
bikes have had 26" wheels, and top quality tires haven't been readily
available for the 559 and 571 sizes. So when Jan put the Elk Pass on the
market, I was thrilled. Frankly, I've not ridden "standard casing" Compass
tires, so I can't really say if, or by how much, the ELs reduce rolling
resistance (the Elk Pass comes only in the EL casing). But the improvement
over the already very decent 1.35" Kojaks was so noticeable that I spent
almost $1K in stocking up. (I had swapped 622 35 mm Kojaks on my erstwhile
Ram for original issue Challenge Parigi Roubaix -- as delicate a tire, I
may add, as any I've used -- and, while the difference was quite
noticeable, it wasn't as noticeable as between the 559 X 1.35 Ks and the
Elk Passes.


> Another consideration on wheel performance, when taken to the nth degree
> via extralight casings etc, is the effect of aerodynamic drag on the
> fendered, high spoke, box rimed, bulbous profile wheel which makes one
> bring into prospective where to draw the line on dialing the rubber rolling
> resistance.
>
> Very true. I think Jan discounts tire air drag as negligible, but I
certainly feel something when I'm pushing 29", 2"+ wide tires against one
of our Spring headwinds! Even more so if the tire has fat, tall knobs (that
is to say, the resistance of the knobs to rolling on pavement is very
noticeably less than when a headwind is added).

I also think fenders, or at least Velo Orange flaps, catch wind; at least,
my 2003 Riv with Elk Passes and a 70" gear doesn't seem as easy to pedal as
my identical, as to position and tires '99 gofast, sans fenders and with a
76" gear. Jan did say that, from his wind tunnel tests, the fenders on the
bike or bikes he tested didn't add to drag.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

Actually 3 questions, if we add the "where to stop adding more suppleness 
to an already supple tire?".

I absolutely agree with your statement regarding the esoteric nature of the 
perceived handling differences between wheel sizes simply due to the fact 
that the absolute judge of what feels best (beyond the kool-aid dispersed 
by the experts) is one's self and one can only judge what they are aware of 
or most often perceive as being best. 

I dont remember if it was a published BQ article or a JH blog entry that 
once said that JH found loosing "nimbleness" on 700c wheels when tire size 
exceeded 32 mm and that was the predominant reason behind moving to 650Bx38 
or x42 to regain it. What this means? To me, nothing more than that JH 
prefers 650Bx38 over 700cx35 or wider for his riding. Same with Jan's 
preference of the super supple (extralight) over the standard supple 
casings.
Should the casual rider be influenced by JH's preferences? IMO, I tend to 
be between Maybe and Not, because they may never realize the benefits they 
believe exist.
Should the higher performance rider be influenced by JH's preferences? IMO, 
if one's riding style, ability, cadence, posture etc are similar to Jan's 
and they are riding on similar tarmac and for as long as Jan does then one 
would expect some gains to be harvested by mimicking what Jan does.

After having drunk my fair share of kool-aid over the years I have come to 
the realization that with bicycles in particular, one needs to separate 
between what's merely true and what's important. To me and my cycling 
exposure, the need for the extralight casings  is just noise; I do use open 
tubular type clinchers with supple walls and there I draw the line for a 
number of reasons. When and if I need lower rolling resistance then I use 
latex tubes. 

Another consideration on wheel performance, when taken to the nth degree 
via extralight casings etc, is the effect of aerodynamic drag on the 
fendered, high spoke, box rimed, bulbous profile wheel which makes one 
bring into prospective where to draw the line on dialing the rubber rolling 
resistance.


On Tuesday, May 2, 2017 at 5:52:57 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> ...*snipped*.
>
> We've got 2 questions going on here, optimum wheel size and casing 
> suppleness. I rather think that the question of how wheel size affects 
> handling is more "esoteric" than that of casing suppleness, which I guess 
> is available to anyone who rides above a jogging speed. 
>
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 7:47 PM, panog  
> wrote:
>
>> The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling 
>> resistance, reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same 
>> watt input.
>> The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I 
>> dont think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly 
>> dependent on the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to 
>> harness the marginal increase in performance.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Yes, the benefit of casing suppleness is principally lower rolling
resistance, though I find that more supple tires are also more comfortable
at a given tire pressure (and, OTOH, that they often require a higher
pressure to avoid sidewall flop than do tires with stiffer sidewalls).

We've got 2 questions going on here, optimum wheel size and casing
suppleness. I rather think that the question of how wheel size affects
handling is more "esoteric" than that of casing suppleness, which I guess
is available to anyone who rides above a jogging speed.

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 7:47 PM, panog  wrote:

> The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling
> resistance, reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same
> watt input.
> The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I
> dont think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly
> dependent on the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to
> harness the marginal increase in performance.
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[ted]

And how much he or she cares about that difference 

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[panog]

The principal benefit of the greater suppleness is reduced rolling resistance, 
reduced hysteric losses and thus greater speed for the same watt input. 
The real question though is at which point we have diminishing returns. I dont 
think that this is a one-answer-fits-all as I believe its greatly dependent on 
the ability and expertise of the rider and his equipment to harness the 
marginal increase in performance. 


On Monday, May 1, 2017 at 5:04:29 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
> Yeah, but his tests were to my judgment not conclusive. How do you "prove" 
> that this handling is better than that? And for whom? Once again, my own 
> experience, which is extensive, if not as extensive as Jan's, contradicts 
> this opinion.
> 
> 
> The principal benefits of the extralights is not weight, or principally 
> weight, as far as I know, it's the greater suppleness of the casings.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:51 PM, panog  wrote:
> 
> Yes he did and he included a series of his tests in BQ to back up the claim. 
> I dont think JH is alone on the assessment of the 32s being optimum size for 
> 700c wheels. Another who comes to mind is Mike Kone of Boulder Bicycle. 
> I am of the understanding that sizes beyond that are focused more in comfort 
> at the expense of handling or speed. Furthermore, one aspect that appears to 
> be often overlooked is the effect of a significantly taller tire installed on 
> a road bicycle originally designed for a BB spaced to accommodate up to 32mm 
> tires, regardless if such tire fits the fork or chainstays.
> Granted, unless one pushes the bike up to higher performance ranges (and has 
> a bike that is specifically designed to comply to such actions), these 
> theories maybe largely insignificant although true. However, if that's the 
> case, why one would care about sacrificing the incremental benefits of the 
> extralights over the standard casings?   

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Yeah, but his tests were to my judgment not conclusive. How do you "prove"
that this handling is better than that? And for whom? Once again, my own
experience, which is extensive, if not as extensive as Jan's, contradicts
this opinion.

The principal benefits of the extralights is not weight, or principally
weight, as far as I know, it's the greater suppleness of the casings.



On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 12:51 PM, panog  wrote:

> Yes he did and he included a series of his tests in BQ to back up the
> claim. I dont think JH is alone on the assessment of the 32s being optimum
> size for 700c wheels. Another who comes to mind is Mike Kone of Boulder
> Bicycle.
> I am of the understanding that sizes beyond that are focused more in
> comfort at the expense of handling or speed. Furthermore, one aspect that
> appears to be often overlooked is the effect of a significantly taller tire
> installed on a road bicycle originally designed for a BB spaced to
> accommodate up to 32mm tires, regardless if such tire fits the fork or
> chainstays.
> Granted, unless one pushes the bike up to higher performance ranges (and
> has a bike that is specifically designed to comply to such actions), these
> theories maybe largely insignificant although true. However, if that's the
> case, why one would care about sacrificing the incremental benefits of the
> extralights over the standard casings?
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Which Compass tires for a Sam Hillborne riden on pavement

[Patrick Moore]

Jan theorizes that there is an optimum diameter -- and absolute number --
for optimum handing, and that this correlates more or less to 622 X 32, 584
X 40 or 42, and 559 X 50.

I don't buy it, since the best handling bikes (thanks again, Grant!) I've
ridden were designed for 559 wheels with tires ranging from 1" to 35 mm.
So, if you don't buy this theory, choose your tire for speed or cushioning
or the best combination of both. me, I find that 28 mm is a sweet spot for
road, and 50 mm is a sweet spot for our sandy soil; this regardless of bead
seat diameter.

Note that I ride Elk Passes, 27 to 29 mm depending on rim, on firm dirt
with glee and comfort; and my 51 mm [622] F Freds roll very nicely on
pavement, thank you (the [559] Rat Trap Pass rolls even better, I'm told).

So, me, if I were riding mostly on pavement, even roughish pavement, and I
had all the choices in the world, I'd choose something narrower than 32,
though a Compass EL 32 wouldn't scare me off by any means. For mostly dirt,
unless it is smoother than what we get around here, I'd certainly prefer
38s to 32a.

On Mon, May 1, 2017 at 6:55 AM, Jay in Tel Aviv  wrote:

> I remember Jan saying something about 32s being the optimal size for 700c
> on pavement. I can fit true 38s under my fenders, but perhaps that would be
> better suited to dirt or gravel. Or has the thinking moved on since then?
>
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