Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Joel Davidson]

Andrew,

Carter era contractors did not kneecap alternative energy industry in the 
1970s, but that's not a wrenches subject.

Sure, everyone has stories about bad customers, GCs, subs, equipment, etc. Some 
of us are honest enough to admit that we have made a mistake or two. You don't 
have to work for or with people you don't like or buy equipment you don't like. 
But I don't know anyone in the building or energy industry who does not work 
with others.

Few contractors nowadays do all the trades in-house. Do you sub out structural 
engineering, surveying, roofing, arborist, concrete cutting, crane, etc.? Then 
what's wrong with you being a sub if you like the other guy's work and can 
control design and electrical installation or whatever you need to control? 
There are plenty of decent contractors in your service area who would like to 
have a good go-to PV company just as you like to have good go-to roofer. You 
know your design and electrical costs and what margin you need for that portion 
of your work. So what's the hassle?

Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: Solar Energy Solutions 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 8:41 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
installation methods


Joel,

Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we 
help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses. 
 We get  a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their 
systems.  It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures 
unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other 
hassles.  This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, 
sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the 
industry.

Respectfully, 



Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 

"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."


--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:


  From: Joel Davidson 
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation methods
  To: "RE-wrenches" 
  Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM


  Guys,
  You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about 
roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their 
screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do 
their design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and 
grunt work).
  Joel Davidson
- Original Message - 
From: Warren Lauzon 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
installation methods


We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the 
edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs 
personally, and they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. 
Not quite as bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run 
the wiring down to the inverter, and not in conduit.


From: Nick Soleil 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
installation methods

Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been 
trying to sell solar?  One company thought of something that I had never 
considered.  Listen to this neat story.
   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently 
removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny 
thing is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the 
customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without 
any attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a 
MultiContact connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system 
was not operating, and called us to the site.  


Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[toddcory]

I had a potential customer call me last week saying he had just bought a "bunch 
of panels and those micro chip things (enphase inverters) so he could get a end 
of the year tax break". He wanted me to come and install it for him. I told him 
my work includes a comprehensive energy audit to gather the low hanging fruit 
first. I also said I do not touch equipment I do not sell or install systems I 
do not design and that I was sorry but I could not help him. I wished him good 
luck in getting someone to touch that gear. Too bad the cheapestsolar.com folks 
don't warn their customers about these kinds of situations.

Just like the Carter gold rush days is correct.

Todd

On Friday, January 28, 2011 2:52pm, "Darryl Thayer"  
said:

  
Guys,  
You're missing a  business opportunity. Instead of 
complaining about  roofers' bad work and competition, show 
the  company owners photos of their screw-ups and your  
quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then  
offer to do their design and electrical  installation 
(let them do the sales, roofing, and  grunt work).  

Joel Davidson  
- Original  Message - 
From:  
[http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=war...@wind-sun.com] Warren   
 Lauzon 
To: 
[http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 RE-wrenches
Sent: Friday,  January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re:  [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =  
creative,new installation methods


  

We have seen a lot of the roofing companies  nibbling 
around the edges of solar installs  lately. I have only 
seen a couple of installs  personally, and they were 
far from what I  would call professional or reliable. 
Not quite  as bad as your example, but in one case they 
 had used Romex to run the wiring down to the   
   inverter, and not in conduit.
 
  

 
  
From: [http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=nicksoleilso...@yahoo.com] 
Nick  Soleil   
Sent: Thursday, January 27,2011 8:11 PM 
 
To: 
[http://us.mc318.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  
  
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofersinstalling solar 
= creative,newinstallation methods  
  
 
  
Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies  
  have recently been trying to sell solar?  
   One company thought of something that I had
never considered.  Listen to this neatstory.
   I was servicing a job today, where a 
   roofing company recently removed and
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degreesloped roof.  
The funny thing is that theroofer didn't want to 
penetrate his newroof, so he and the customer 
decided toleave the panels sitting on the 
compositionroof without any attachments to the  
  structure.  They didn't think it was  
  necessary!  
Shortly afterward, the array slid down  
  the roof, and a MultiContact connector came   
 unplugged.  The customer noticed that his
system was not operating, and called us tothe site. 
 

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma,

[RE-wrenches] SunPower and SMA

[Marco Mangelsdorf]

Have any of you SunPower dealers used their modules with the fairly new SMA
line of transformerless inverters (8, 9 and 10 kW @ 120/208 only)?

 

I'm trying to get a compatibility answer directly from SunPower tech
support, but am wondering if any of you have tried this combo.

 

Thanks,

marco

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Darryl Thayer]

I installed a system provides by another, it failed, because of defective 
equipment, I am being sued to replace the defective equipment
DT





From: boB Gudgel 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 11:25:34 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods

On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote: 
Joel,
> 
>Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  
>When we help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize 
>unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get  a dozen phone calls a 
>month from folks wanting us to install their systems.  It is a 
>rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures 
>unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a 
>plethora 
>of other hassles.  This whole thing reminds me of the  
>   
>Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were 
>installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
> 
>Respectfully, 
>
> 


I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start 
installing roofs, too !!

boB







>
>Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
>President
>Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
>Since 1987,
>Moving Portland and Beyond 
>to an Environmentally Sustainable   Future.
>503-238-4502
>www.solarenergyoregon.com 
> 
>"Better one's House too little one day
>than too big all the Year after."
>
>--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:
>
>
>>From: Joel Davidson 
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = 
>>creative, 
>>new installation methods
>>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>>
>>
>> 
>>Guys,
>>You're missing a   business opportunity. Instead of 
>>complaining about   roofers' bad work and competition, 
>>show 
>>the   company owners photos of their screw-ups and your   
>>
>>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then   offer to 
>>do 
>>their design and electrical   installation (let them do 
>>the 
>>sales, roofing, and   grunt work).
>>Joel Davidson
>>- Original   Message - 
>>>From: Warren Lauzon 
>>>To: RE-wrenches 
>>>Sent: Friday,   January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>>Subject: Re:   [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =  
>>> 
>>>creative,new installation methods
>>>
>>>
>>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies   
>>>nibbling 
>>>around the edges of solar installs   lately. I have 
>>>only 
>>>seen a couple of installs   personally, and they 
>>>were 
>>>far from what I   would call professional or 
>>>reliable. 
>>>Not quite   as bad as your example, but in one case 
>>>they   
>>>had used Romex to run the wiring down to the   
>>>inverter, 
>>>and not in conduit.
>>>  
>>>From: Nick   Soleil 
>>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing 
>>>solar 
>>>= creative,new installation methods
>>>  Hi wrenches:
>>>   Have you noticed that roofing companies have 
>>>recently been trying to sell solar?  One company 
>>>thought of something that I had never 
>>>considered.  
>>>Listen to this neat story.
>>>   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing 
>>>company recently removed and re-installed a PV 
>>>array 
>>>on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is 
>>>that 
>>>the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new  
>>>   
>>>roof, so he and the customer decided to leave 
>>>the 
>>>panels sitting on the composition roof without 
>>>any 
>>>attachments to the structure.  They didn't think 
>>>it 
>>>was necessary!  
>>>
>>>Shortly afterward, the array slid down the 
>>> roof, 
>>>and a MultiContact connector came unplugged.  
>>>The 
>>>customer noticed that his system was not 
>>>operating, 
>>>and called us to the site.  
>>>
>>>
>>> 
Nick Soleil
>>>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[David Brearley]

Good points. Also, adding a PV system is in concert with a new roof is
generally a best case scenario for the building owner. In terms of lead
generation, it can also go both ways. Solar companies help generate business
for the roofing contractors they recommend to customers or partner with on
projects. There¹s definitely a win-win way of looking at this.

(While roofing contractors are hardly the first solar installers to make
rookie mistakes, failing to attach a system to a sloped roof is particularly
egregious. The best ³worst PV install² story I heard involved
first-generation Uni-solar shingles installed on a north facing roof without
enough modules in series to actually reach the inverter start voltage. At
least it didn¹t blow away or fall off the roof!)

David Brearley, Senior Technical Editor
SolarPro magazine 


On 1/28/11 11:57 AM, "Keith Cronin"  wrote:

> Andrew
> 
> Perhaps another approach could be warranted? Joint venture relationships can
> serve each party well, as long as their structured in a way that benefits the
> companies involved.
> Roofers are a good source of leads for us and visa versa. Its worked for me
> and I know of others that also see value in this across the country.
> 
> The work we do, in the grid tied arena falls into two generally accepted
> categories:
> Mechanical work
> Electrical work
> Yes, some jurisdictions may say it is all electrical work and finding a
> demarcation point is open to discussion, but this is how its being performed
> across the globe now.
> 
> If we like it or not, its going to continue. Here in our market there are over
> 150 companies (that I can count) doing PV. When I started, there where about
> 6. General contractors and the like. They need electrical contractors to
> perform the electrical portion of the work. In many ways, many of these other
> types of contracting companies are far better at lead generation, marketing
> and sales than the top electrical contractors and here is why- historically,
> electrical contractors have subordinated themselves to general contractors and
> are "bidders". Even today, many of my electrical contractor competitors are
> ok, with just doing the installation work for the general contractors or sales
> and marketing companies, as they want to focus on doing the work only and
> don't have the temperament for running a sales force.
> 
> Lastly, I believe you can offer other ancillary services to your customers,
> increasing the value of the relationship that have higher margins than the
> commoditized residential pv markets today.
> 
> So, I think we all need to do like Darwin mentioned and adapt to the market
> conditions, so we can not just survive, but thrive in our gold rush. How about
> a residential PPA for your customers to differentiate?
> 
> Aloha
> 
> Keith
> 
> 
> From: Solar Energy Solutions 
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:41:29 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
> installation methods
> 
> Joel,
>  
> Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help the
> unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get
> a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems.
> It is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures
> unprofitable, they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other
> hassles.  This whole thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where,
> sure, a bunch of systems were installed, but look at the damage it did to the
> industry.
>  
> Respectfully, 
> 
> 
> Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
> President
> Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
> Since 1987,
> Moving Portland and Beyond
> to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
> 503-238-4502
> www.solarenergyoregon.com 
>  
> "Better one's House too little one day
> than too big all the Year after."
> 
> 
> --- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:
>> 
>> From: Joel Davidson 
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new
>> installation methods
>> To: "RE-wrenches" 
>> Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>> 
>> Guys,
>> You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers'
>> bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups
>> and your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their
>> design and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt
>> work).
>> Joel Davidson
>>> - Original Message -
>>> From: Warren Lauzon
>>> 
>>> To: RE-wrenches
>>> >> org>  
>>> Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
>>> installation methods
>>> 
>>> We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of
>>> solar installs lately

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Keith Cronin]

Andrew

Perhaps another approach could be warranted? Joint venture relationships can 
serve each party well, as long as their structured in a way that benefits the 
companies involved.
Roofers are a good source of leads for us and visa versa. Its worked for me and 
I know of others that also see value in this across the country.

The work we do, in the grid tied arena falls into two generally accepted 
categories:
Mechanical work
Electrical work
Yes, some jurisdictions may say it is all electrical work and finding a 
demarcation point is open to discussion, but this is how its being performed 
across the globe now.

If we like it or not, its going to continue. Here in our market there are over 
150 companies (that I can count) doing PV. When I started, there where about 6. 
General contractors and the like. They need electrical contractors to perform 
the electrical portion of the work. In many ways, many of these other types of 
contracting companies are far better at lead generation, marketing and sales 
than the top electrical contractors and here is why- historically, electrical 
contractors have subordinated themselves to general contractors and are 
"bidders". Even today, many of my electrical contractor competitors are ok, 
with 
just doing the installation work for the general contractors or sales and 
marketing companies, as they want to focus on doing the work only and don't 
have 
the temperament for running a sales force.

Lastly, I believe you can offer other ancillary services to your customers, 
increasing the value of the relationship that have higher margins than the 
commoditized residential pv markets today.

So, I think we all need to do like Darwin mentioned and adapt to the market 
conditions, so we can not just survive, but thrive in our gold rush. How about 
a 
residential PPA for your customers to differentiate?

Aloha

Keith




From: Solar Energy Solutions 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Fri, January 28, 2011 6:41:29 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation 
methods


Joel,
 
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help the 
unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get  
a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems.  It 
is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, 
they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles.  This whole 
thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems 
were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
 
Respectfully, 



Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 
 
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:


>From: Joel Davidson 
>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
>installation 
>methods
>To: "RE-wrenches" 
>Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM
>
>
> 
>Guys,
>You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' 
>bad 
>work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and 
>your 
>quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design and 
>electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
>Joel Davidson
>- Original Message - 
>>From: Warren Lauzon 
>>To: RE-wrenches 
>>Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
>>Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
>>installation 
>>methods
>>
>>
>>We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of 
>>solar 
>>installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they 
>>were 
>>far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your 
>>example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the 
>>inverter, and not in conduit.
>>  
>>From: Nick Soleil 
>>Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
>>To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>>Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
>>methods
>>  Hi wrenches:
>>   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
>>solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen 
>>to 
>>this neat story.
>>   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
>>re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that 
>>the 
>>roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided 
>>to 
>>leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any attachments to 
>>the 
>>structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
>>
>>Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
>>connector came unplugged.  The customer no

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Dave Click]

That's a nice built-in alarm feature that locking connectors just can't 
provide...


Nick Soleil wrote:

Hi wrenches:
Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to
sell solar? One company thought of something that I had never
considered. Listen to this neat story.
I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed
and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof. The funny thing
is that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the
customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof
without any attachments to the structure. They didn't think it was
necessary!
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
connector came unplugged. The customer noticed that his system was not
operating, and called us to the site.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[boB Gudgel]

On 1/28/2011 8:41 AM, Solar Energy Solutions wrote:

Joel,
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we 
help the unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv 
businesses.  We get  a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us 
to install their systems.  It is a rat hole and we have learned that 
not only are such ventures unprofitable, they are fraught with poor 
designs and a plethora of other hassles.  This whole thing reminds me 
of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems were 
installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.

Respectfully,





I just hope that the solar installers' industry doesn't have to start 
installing roofs, too !!


boB







*Andrew Koyaanisqatsi*
President
*Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.*
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.
*503-238-4502*
*www.solarenergyoregon.com  *
**
*"Better one's House too little one day*
*than too big all the Year after."*


--- On *Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson //* 
wrote:



From: Joel Davidson 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,
new installation methods
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM

Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining
about roofers' bad work and competition, show the company owners
photos of their screw-ups and your quality work. Tell him that he
is a risk. Then offer to do their design and electrical
installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson

- Original Message -
*From:* Warren Lauzon


*To:* RE-wrenches



*Sent:* Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =
creative,new installation methods

We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around
the edges of solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple
of installs personally, and they were far from what I would
call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as your
example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring
down to the inverter, and not in conduit.
*From:* Nick Soleil


*Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org



*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar =
creative,new installation methods
Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been
trying to sell solar?  One company thought of something that I
had never considered.  Listen to this neat story.
   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company
recently removed and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree
sloped roof.  The funny thing is that the roofer didn't want
to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer decided to
leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any
attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was
necessary!
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a
MultiContact connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed
that his system was not operating, and called us to the site.
Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Solar Energy Solutions]

Joel,
 
Our company cannot survive without selling an entire system.  When we help the 
unqualified and untrained we legitimize unsubstantiated pv businesses.  We get  
a dozen phone calls a month from folks wanting us to install their systems.  It 
is a rat hole and we have learned that not only are such ventures unprofitable, 
they are fraught with poor designs and a plethora of other hassles.  This whole 
thing reminds me of the Carter solar Gold Rush where, sure, a bunch of systems 
were installed, but look at the damage it did to the industry.
 
Respectfully, 



Andrew Koyaanisqatsi
President
Solar Energy Solutions, Inc.
Since 1987,
Moving Portland and Beyond 
to an Environmentally Sustainable Future.

503-238-4502
www.solarenergyoregon.com 
 
"Better one's House too little one day
than too big all the Year after."

--- On Fri, 1/28/11, Joel Davidson  wrote:


From: Joel Davidson 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new 
installation methods
To: "RE-wrenches" 
Date: Friday, January 28, 2011, 7:06 AM



#yiv337427572 DIV {
MARGIN:0px;}


Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' 
bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and 
your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design 
and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson

- Original Message - 
From: Warren Lauzon 
To: RE-wrenches 
Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
methods




We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar 
installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they 
were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as 
your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the 
inverter, and not in conduit.
 


 

From: Nick Soleil 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
methods
 

Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen 
to this neat story.
   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that 
the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer 
decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any 
attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
    Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not 
operating, and called us to the site.  

 Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 
 



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Joel Davidson]

Guys,
You're missing a business opportunity. Instead of complaining about roofers' 
bad work and competition, show the company owners photos of their screw-ups and 
your quality work. Tell him that he is a risk. Then offer to do their design 
and electrical installation (let them do the sales, roofing, and grunt work).
Joel Davidson
  - Original Message - 
  From: Warren Lauzon 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Friday, January 28, 2011 3:35 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new 
installation methods


  We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of 
solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and 
they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad 
as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to 
the inverter, and not in conduit.


  From: Nick Soleil 
  Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
  To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
methods

  Hi wrenches:
 Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen 
to this neat story.
 I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that 
the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer 
decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any 
attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
  Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not 
operating, and called us to the site.  


  Nick Soleil
  Project Manager
  Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
  PO Box 657
  Petaluma, CA 94953
  Cell: 707-321-2937
  Office: 707-789-9537
  Fax: 707-769-9037 





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  Online Solar Store
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable Sizing - revisited, Ambient Temp

[Dave Click]

John,
240.4(B) allows the ampacity of a wire to drop below the OCPD rating so 
you could argue that wouldn't be a safety issue. It's always irritated 
me that these NEC derating factors have two decimal places so that you 
feel your calculations are extremely exact... and then your 
carefully-derated-to-126.39A wire has no problem at all on a 150A 
breaker. But that's the way it is.


It takes a lot of heating to exceed the 90C rating of a wire, but yes 
theoretically that would damage the insulation and cause a fault. As for 
voltage drop of your wires, I don't think that's as big an issue as you 
think. Heating from 40C to 80C, a wire is going to see its resistance 
increase by about 15%, so your voltage drop may go from 1.5% to 1.73%. 
Your module voltage drop is going to be the more pressing concern.


If on your drawings you state something like "conduits to be minimum 3.5 
inches above the roof" (or for residential, put the run in the attic) 
then that puts you at a 17C adder which is pretty manageable for most 
areas of the US (worst case, you're in the 61-70C temp derate range). 
And again, in some cases where you have a very hot section of conduit, 
the 10'/10% rule may let you ignore that localized heating. Since you're 
the one stamping these drawings, you have to stay within your comfort 
zone- add another 10C if you're worried about it and add some extra 
expansion joints. Or you can specify that your contractors shade all 
rooftop conduit, but I imagine that would limit your repeat business.


Dave

John Wadley wrote:

Dave,
Thanks for responding in Mr. Brooks place. Since ASHREA 2% is not the
very worst case, it seems like it might be possible for the ampacity of
the wire chosen to dip below the rating of the OCPD protecting it, if
there is not much margin. I've been trying to rationalize whether this
would become a safety issue. I don't think it would since the OCPD
protects the wire from a current source increasing beyond the expected
design output. I don't think there is much chance of that for a PV
module (unless there was a short between two strings). I think the
increased heating would more likely increase wire resistance/voltage
drop and lower production. With enough voltage drop, the inverter might
shut off.
I guess my new concern is in the most severe case where there is solar
concentration on a short section of conduit. Here, the heating effect of
both the elevated ambient temp and reduced wire resistance might lead to
premature failure of the wire insulation. If the combined heating
effects exceed the 90C rating of the wire, does the insulation embrittle
or melt? In either case, I foresee a grounding fault, and if the GFCI
failed, it could spark a fire.
I know the best solution is to keep conduit shaded and avoid these worst
case solar concentrating conditions. Sometimes. when I design a system
for a new contractor, I don't always know exactly where they plan to run
conduit on a roof (nor can I control it) and I start "what-if'ing"
whether my design numbers will be conservative enough to prevent a
system failure or a fire.

Thanks and regards,
John Wadley, PE
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer (TM)
Wadley Engineering

 > Date: Tue, 25 Jan 2011 15:37:20 -0500
 > From: Dave Click 
 > To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 > Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable Sizing - revisited, Ambient Temp
 > Message-ID: <4d3f3480.9030...@fsec.ucf.edu>
 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed
 >
 > John,
 >
 > The 2% "ambient temperature" from ASHRAE is the appropriate starting
 > point to use for these calculations. For some additional background I'll
 > quote Bill:
 >
 > **
 > ASHRAE bases its ?warm?season temperature conditions? for each city on
 > annual percentiles of 0.4%, 1.0% and 2.0%. As an example, the June 2.0%
 > dry?bulb design temperature for Atlanta is 91.7?F. Therefore, based on a
 > 30?day month (i.e. 720 hours), the actual temperatures can be expected
 > to exceed 91.7?F a total of 14 hours a month. The corresponding 1.0%
 > design temperature (93.1?F) can be expected to be exceeded for 7 hours a
 > month; while the 0.4% design temperature (94.6?F) can be expected to be
 > exceeded for 3 hours a month (column 2).
 > **
 >
 > In Jim Dunlop's example it sounds like he's starting with the summer
 > ambient high (likely around 90F / 32C) and adding the 310.15(B)(2)(c)
 > 33C figure to reach the 61-70C range.
 >
 > IMHO, ASHRAE 2% high temperature should be the "standard practice" for
 > these conditions when calculating your base ambient temperature before
 > additional adders. There are going to be site-specific conditions like
 > your example where the conduits may heat up more than 310.15(B)(2)(c)
 > requires; in that case I think you'd be on the right track to make your
 > own field measurements to determine an appropriate temperature. In some
 > cases the 10%/10ft rule may mean you can ignore short hot spots in the
 > wire. If you had a situation where the condui

Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Mike Nelson]

I have seen one install in my local area, done by PetersonDean Roofing, they
beat my bid by $1.50/watt, and actually did a very nice install, although
they used cheaper chinese modules, and a string inverter (I was proposing
enphase). But I was surprised by the clean conduit work, and flashings on
the roof.

Mike Nelson
MD Electric & Solar
Gualala Ca.

On Fri, Jan 28, 2011 at 3:35 AM, Warren Lauzon  wrote:

>   We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of
> solar installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and
> they were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as
> bad as your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring
> down to the inverter, and not in conduit.
>
>
>  *From:* Nick Soleil 
> *Sent:* Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
> *To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new
> installation methods
>
>  Hi wrenches:
>Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to
> sell solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.
> Listen to this neat story.
>I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed
> and re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is
> that the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the
> customer decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without
> any attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!
> Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact
> connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not
> operating, and called us to the site.
>
> Nick Soleil
> Project Manager
> Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
> PO Box 657
> Petaluma, CA 94953
> Cell: 707-321-2937
> Office: 707-789-9537
> Fax: 707-769-9037
>
>
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> 
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[RE-wrenches] Solaredge

[Kirk Herander, VSE]

Hello,
Can anyone speak to real-life pros and/or cons of Solaredge module MPPT
products and performance? Thanks.

Kirk Herander
Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
NABCEP(tm) Certified Solar Installer
NYSERDA-eligible Installer
VT Solar Incentive Program Partner


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative, new installation methods

[Warren Lauzon]

We have seen a lot of the roofing companies nibbling around the edges of solar 
installs lately. I have only seen a couple of installs personally, and they 
were far from what I would call professional or reliable. Not quite as bad as 
your example, but in one case they had used Romex to run the wiring down to the 
inverter, and not in conduit.


From: Nick Soleil 
Sent: Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:11 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Roofers installing solar = creative,new installation 
methods

Hi wrenches:
   Have you noticed that roofing companies have recently been trying to sell 
solar?  One company thought of something that I had never considered.  Listen 
to this neat story.
   I was servicing a job today, where a roofing company recently removed and 
re-installed a PV array on a 12 degree sloped roof.  The funny thing is that 
the roofer didn't want to penetrate his new roof, so he and the customer 
decided to leave the panels sitting on the composition roof without any 
attachments to the structure.  They didn't think it was necessary!  
Shortly afterward, the array slid down the roof, and a MultiContact 
connector came unplugged.  The customer noticed that his system was not 
operating, and called us to the site.  


Nick Soleil
Project Manager
Advanced Alternative Energy Solutions, LLC
PO Box 657
Petaluma, CA 94953
Cell: 707-321-2937
Office: 707-789-9537
Fax: 707-769-9037 






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