Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options

[Mac Lewis]

We've installed quite a few GS Nanocarbon batteries and these are available
in 24V.  5000 cycles to 70% DOD (we usually shoot for around 50% DOD).
http://www.gsbattery.com/renewable/renewable-energy-slr-series/

No problems thus far.  Not cheap but very high quality.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 3:42 AM jay  wrote:

> You might also look at
>
> https://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/lit/12_1137.pdf
>
> Which is using nano carbon, for 3000 cycles to 50%.
>
> Other battery companies also have carbon/lead at up to 4000+ cycles for
> VRLA, and Rolls has 4500 cycles for flooded, both at 50% DOD.
>
> The UnigyII is tried and proven tech, but low cycle life compared to the
> newer carbon LA chemistries.
>
>
> jay
>
> Peltz Power
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jerry Shafer 
> wrote:
>
> Howie
> Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it
> may be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might
> want to consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to
> 48 volts later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution.
> Jerry
>
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson 
> wrote:
>
>> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in
>> a very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly
>> off-grid (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years
>> and has no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a
>> good 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to.  I know the
>> inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke...
>> Howie
>>
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show
>>> my customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am
>>> not talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off
>>> grid homes.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson <
>>> howie.michael...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
 Hi all,
 I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and
 really like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton
 of experience yet.  I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4
 battery options.  I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap
 out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA,
 Howie
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options

[Tump]

I believe that the Unigi II  series of cells also has a nano carbon line. 
Contact Doug Laningham (dlaning...@mkbattery.com) cced above
On Sep 27, 2019, at 8:14 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:
> 
> We've installed quite a few GS Nanocarbon batteries and these are available 
> in 24V.  5000 cycles to 70% DOD (we usually shoot for around 50% DOD).   
> http://www.gsbattery.com/renewable/renewable-energy-slr-series/ 
> 
> 
> No problems thus far.  Not cheap but very high quality.
> 
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 3:42 AM jay  > wrote:
> You might also look at
> 
> https://www.cdtechno.com/pdf/lit/12_1137.pdf 
> 
> 
> Which is using nano carbon, for 3000 cycles to 50%.
> 
> Other battery companies also have carbon/lead at up to 4000+ cycles for VRLA, 
> and Rolls has 4500 cycles for flooded, both at 50% DOD.
> 
> The UnigyII is tried and proven tech, but low cycle life compared to the 
> newer carbon LA chemistries.
> 
> 
> jay
> 
> Peltz Power
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
>> On Sep 26, 2019, at 2:55 PM, Jerry Shafer > > wrote:
>> 
>> Howie
>> Understand but the reality is that inverter is going to fail and then it may 
>> be to late to make an upgrade and it will be more costly. You might want to 
>> consider Deka Unigyll that can be bussed in 24 volts and changed to 48 volts 
>> later. No it's not LI but it's a good solution. 
>> Jerry
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 2:18 PM Howie Michaelson > > wrote:
>> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a 
>> very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid 
>> (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has 
>> no pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 
>> 24volt option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to.  I know the 
>> inverter could crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke...
>> Howie
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer > > wrote:
>> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my 
>> customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not 
>> talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid 
>> homes. 
>> 
>> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson > > wrote:
>> Hi all,
>> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really 
>> like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of 
>> experience yet.  I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 
>> battery options.  I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap 
>> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA,
>> Howie
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[RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Mark Frye]

Folks,

Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: 
recycling Li batteries?


I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in 
particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle 
product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something 
like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.


Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny 
new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on 
impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within 
the frame work of a sustainable future?


This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li 
batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking 
around this is?


Thanks,

Mark Frye


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Kirpal]

Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla has a
recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  Curious how
other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling.
Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all varieties,
what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your
"clean" energy materials.  I am troubled that after many of our installs we
have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system
installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It drives me crazy to have this blight on
our installation.  I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this
dichotomy of the installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with
in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters,
other balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)?  Collectively
we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable
packaging.
I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a
lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  All of us can
helpTogether we have a big voice.

Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye  wrote:

> Folks,
>
> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re:
> recycling Li batteries?
>
> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in
> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle
> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something
> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.
>
> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny
> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on
> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within
> the frame work of a sustainable future?
>
> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li
> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking
> around this is?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Mark Frye
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Jay]

Hi Kirpal,

Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla?
Links, etc

Thx
Jay

> On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal  wrote:
> 
> 
> Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla has a 
> recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  Curious how 
> other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling.  
> Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all varieties, what 
> are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your "clean" 
> energy materials.  I am troubled that after many of our installs we have a 
> pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system 
> installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It drives me crazy to have this blight on 
> our installation.  I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this 
> dichotomy of the installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with in 
> regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, other 
> balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)?  Collectively we should 
> have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable packaging.  
> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a 
> lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  All of us can 
> helpTogether we have a big voice.
> 
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
> 
> 
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye  wrote:
>> Folks,
>> 
>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re: 
>> recycling Li batteries?
>> 
>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in 
>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle 
>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something 
>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.
>> 
>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny 
>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on 
>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within
>> the frame work of a sustainable future?
>> 
>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li 
>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking 
>> around this is?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Mark Frye
>> 
>> 
>> ___
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>> 
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>> 
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Sindelar Solar]

Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in 
point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the 
individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam 
packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was 
working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay 
(substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging.


To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given 
their promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 
'by then there will be structures in place to address the need' avoidance.


I would appreciate having a Blue Planet manufacturer's representative on 
this list.


Allan

--

*Allan Sindelar*
al...@sindelarsolar.com 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
*505 780-2738 cell*

On 9/27/2019 8:48 AM, Kirpal wrote:
Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla 
has a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  
Curious how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling.
Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all 
varieties, what are you finding with regard to non sustainable 
packaging in all your "clean" energy materials.  I am troubled that 
after many of our installs we have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as 
big as the the balance of system installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It 
drives me crazy to have this blight on our installation.  I am often 
embarrassed when the customer points out this dichotomy of the 
installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with in regards to 
environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters, other 
balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)? Collectively we 
should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable 
packaging.
I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, 
but a lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  
All of us can helpTogether we have a big voice.


Sunny Regards,
Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com 
541-299-0402


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye > wrote:


Folks,

Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re:
recycling Li batteries?

I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in
particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle
product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something
like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.

Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our
shiny
new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on
impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded
within
the frame work of a sustainable future?

This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li
batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking
around this is?

Thanks,
Mark Frye

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Mac Lewis]

I fully agree.  Styrofoam seems totally unnecessary now, they do amazing
things with cardboard and the "structural" paper (that's my own word).   On
another note, can all lead acid, even these newer advanced lead acid,
batteries be recycled?

Thanks

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:44 AM Sindelar Solar 
wrote:

> Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in
> point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the
> individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam
> packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was
> working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay
> (substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging.
>
> To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given their
> promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 'by then
> there will be structures in place to address the need' avoidance.
>
> I would appreciate having a Blue Planet manufacturer's representative on
> this list.
>
> Allan
> --
>
> *Allan Sindelar*
> al...@sindelarsolar.com
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> *505 780-2738 cell*
>
>
> On 9/27/2019 8:48 AM, Kirpal wrote:
>
> Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla has
> a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  Curious
> how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling.
> Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all varieties,
> what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your
> "clean" energy materials.  I am troubled that after many of our installs we
> have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system
> installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It drives me crazy to have this blight on
> our installation.  I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this
> dichotomy of the installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with
> in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters,
> other balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)?  Collectively
> we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable
> packaging.
> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a
> lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  All of us can
> helpTogether we have a big voice.
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye  wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re:
>> recycling Li batteries?
>>
>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in
>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle
>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something
>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.
>>
>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny
>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on
>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within
>> the frame work of a sustainable future?
>>
>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li
>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking
>> around this is?
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Mark Frye
>
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-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 24 volt LiFePO4 Battery options

[Starlight Solar Power Systems]

Hi Dave, Howie, Et al,

With one brand of Li batteries we sell (EPS), if any part of the BMS system 
fails, you can turn the battery power on manually and continue to function 
until the repair is made. All the BMS components are external so it is very 
serviceable by tech or user. Having a spare part is not very expensive. We have 
customers operating these systems for 6 years now and I can attest to the 
success of it. (Other Li battery systems may have similar function)

Concerning moving to 48V, at any time the (EPS) Li battery can be reconfigured 
for 48V provided you have 4 (or 8, 12, etc) battery packs. Converting from 2S2P 
to 4S1P is simple. 

(sorry, ranting ahead) You can also add additional capacity at any time. 
Imagine in 10 years you need more energy storage. With LA, you need to start 
over with all new. Not so with the EPS system. Just buy more cells and BMS and 
reconfigure the CPU. The oldest, lower capacity cells are still usable. It not 
until the minimum V of one cell triggers a shutdown before you have recharged 
the bank that you need to replace cell(s).

Most don’t know that a Li battery can be fully recharged with about 40% less PV 
solar power. Why? Because they absorb current up to about 98% SoC. Absorb time 
is about 10 minutes if you want push them to full. No hours in absorb and 
float, required each day by LA, wasting much of the PV energy that was paid 
for. Another benefit is many LA battery systems experience deficit charges in 
the winter because there are not enough sun-hours. We all know that this 
quickly diminishes the life of a LA battery. 

 When using engine power to charge on those rainy days, the EPS battery system 
can be fully charged in under one hour from ANY SoC!   

Pontificating over for now. I hope this is helpful to you Howie. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems






On Sep 26, 2019, at 3:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  
wrote:

My 2 cents are each client is different and if they have been fine on that one 
set of batteries then do what is in their interest. An inverter is easily 
replaced. I might also suggest to stay with the FLA and avoid possible issues 
with LFP. No matter how good they are in many cases, they still have 
electronics in them that can fail and cause a new way to lose power offgrid.

In my case and quite a few of my offgrid clients I want a complete back-up of 
the battery if LFP is used. That is what is so nice about having multiple 
battery systems. One can fail and each has it's own BMS. A spare LFP system can 
also sit for a year and be fine as long as it gets some exercise. Good Luck 
Howie! All good on those two Schneider xwp and gateway/insight2 systems?

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060
On Thu, 26 Sep 2019 17:17:47 -0400, Howie Michaelson 
 wrote:

> I get what you are saying Jerry, but this client ( a retiring teacher in a 
> very rural, low wage school district, sadly) has lived very lightly off-grid 
> (1kW solar, 24v Rolls KS21s original batteries) for 18 years years and has no 
> pressing need to upgrade his VFX3524 inverter. I'd rather find a good 24volt 
> option to compare a straight KS21 replacement to.  I know the inverter could 
> crap out at any time, but if it ain't broke...
> Howie
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019 at 5:03 PM Jerry Shafer  > wrote:
> Dollars and sence, drop the 24 volt, BPI is a great battery. Once l show my 
> customers all the benefits of a 48 volt upgrade it wins every time. I am not 
> talking about busses, RV's and one night stands l am talking about off grid 
> homes. 
> 
> On Thu, Sep 26, 2019, 1:53 PM Howie Michaelson  > wrote:
> Hi all,
> I've been using BlueIon batteries recently both on- and off-grid, and really 
> like them so far, although I have limited time on them so not a ton of 
> experience yet.  I am wondering what folks are liking for 24 v LiFePO4 
> battery options.  I have 24 volt off-grid clients who are not ready to swap 
> out to 48v, but might be interested in Lithium batteries. TIA,
> Howie
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Steve Higgins]

When it comes to Recycling Lead it depends on the content of the Lead
Battery...

To my knowledge, Just to name a few... Rolls Batteries, Trojan, Deka, Crown
are generally all 98 to 99% recyclable...

In developed countries where there are smelters 99% + of all lead acid
batteries are indeed recycled...   In countries without a smelter, I'm sad
to say there are many dead batteries that never make it to the smelter.
 On that note all over the world there are landfills, or even garbage
collection trucks catching fire because people have disposed of
their lithium battery in the trash...  I've got a video of what happens
when you try to recycle lithium batteries in a lead recycling plant, here's
the link...

https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B8PfY_G1pzpqa2VTVXRZV1VuSlE/view?usp=sharing

One of the more common additives to lead base batteries Cadmium, or other
heavy metals.  this is toxic and contaminates the lead, which makes any
lead battery with Cadmium in it hazardous waste. Instead of getting back a
core charge you'll have to pay a disposal fee, or worse the recycling
center just won't take the battery.

Lead Carbon, Lead Antimonoy, and Lead Calcium are generally all fully
recyclable as long as they don't have any of the other heavy metals in
them.   Make sure you check the SDS information before you buy new
chemistries...

>From the research I've done over the past few years Lithium based
batteries, and there are 50+ various chemistries.   Recyclabiltiy ranges
from 4% to about 15% of the total battery, depending on the manufacturer.
LFP, is at this point the least toxic of them all, and unfortunately the
least power dense, isn't recyclable, but "supposedly" can be disposed of in
a landfill.   That is at least what  some cell manufactures tell us...  I
personally find that very hard to believe!

Generally with LFP batteries they will recycle the electronics, plastic, or
steel case, the actual lithium, I'm guessing is being stockpiled and stored
at this point, waiting for a recycling solution.  I really hope they aren't
being landfilled, or incinerated, but nobody that I've spoken with on the
subject really knows where the dead product is really going.

Frankly all this is one of the many reasons Rolls has taken so..so. long to
ship a Lithium based solution...


Here are a couple of cool articles on the subject of Lithium and Lithium
production...

https://www.wired.co.uk/article/lithium-batteries-environment-impact

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/business/batteries/congo-cobalt-mining-for-lithium-ion-battery/?noredirect=on





 
 
 
 
 
 
 

Steve Higgins ⋅ Technical Services Manager
t +1.902.597.4020  m +1.206.790.5840
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On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 8:51 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> I fully agree.  Styrofoam seems totally unnecessary now, they do amazing
> things with cardboard and the "structural" paper (that's my own word).   On
> another note, can all lead acid, even these newer advanced lead acid,
> batteries be recycled?
>
> Thanks
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 9:44 AM Sindelar Solar 
> wrote:
>
>> Agreed that this is important and overlooked. Blue Planet is a case in
>> point. While I'm well satisfied with their product and support, the
>> individual battery packs each come with an absurd amount of styrofoam
>> packaging from Murata, the manufacturer. I was told that Blue Planet was
>> working to find a less wasteful alternative, and that I could pay
>> (substantially) extra to reduce the volume of packaging.
>>
>> To date I haven't heard from them about end-of-life recycling; given
>> their promised long service life, I admit that I have succumbed to the 'by
>> then there will be structures in place to address

[RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Lorenzo Ortiz]

Wrenches,

Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown
for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my
area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products
yet.
I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about
it.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

-- 

Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid

lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com

*Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518*

-- 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Mac Lewis]

Hi Loren,

We try to stay off the roof for off-grid in Colorado but I'm about to do an
8 panel, 2 string system because of a building code where this cabin is
located.
I talked with Tigo about it and the parts list is:

8 x's Tigo TS4-A-F for each module
1 x's Tigo RSS

The RSS will signal the TS4s to shutdown if power is lost to the RSS.
Included in the RSS box is a 120 Vac to 12Vdc out power supply.  However,
since the RSS is 12 vdc (max of 1A) I'm getting a buck converter to power
this so the inverter can be turned off in the winter time when the cabin is
unoccupied.  The cost isn't too bad.

I'll be honest though, I think this is a terrible idea.  Any communication
box that can shut off charge to the batteries over winter at an unoccupied
site is asking for trouble.  A communication glitch and the batteries will
be dead.  This site is about 2 hours from the closest fire department so
there is nothing to be gained from adding this equipment other than passing
inspection.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz 
wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown
> for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my
> area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products
> yet.
> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot
> about it.
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
> Loren Ortiz
> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid
>
> lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com
>
> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518*
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback,
Jerry

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz  wrote:

> Wrenches,
>
> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown
> for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my
> area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective* products
> yet.
> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot
> about it.
>
> Any input is appreciated.
>
> Thanks
>
> --
>
> Loren Ortiz
> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid
>
> lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com
>
> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518*
>
>
>
>
>
> 
> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Ray]

Midnite Solar has their SOB system that attaches inline with the 
modules. It can do both String level and module level shutdown. We've 
used it off grid with success.  The biggest issue is it is not 
compatible with most charge controllers, except Magnum's PT 100 for some 
reason.  We used the PT 100, used one pole of a 3 pole DC disconnect for 
the "ON" signal, and all worked fine.  No nuisance tripping or other 
issues for over a year.   We did not bother with controlled breakers, 
etc at the charge controller, and certainly not the inverter.


As is clear in Figure 690.1(b) Note (2) /The PV system disconnect... 
separates the PV system from all other systems. /This means that we 
label the external DC disconnect as /PV Disconnect, /and the voltage 
requirements of 690.12 only apply up to that PV disconnect.  Articles 
445 Generators, 480 Batteries, 705 Interconnected Systems, 706 Storage 
Systems, and 710 Stand Alone Systems, all apply after the PV disconnect.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 9/27/19 11:23 AM, Lorenzo Ortiz wrote:

Wrenches,

Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid 
shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at 
least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, 
*cost-effective* products yet.
I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot 
about it.


Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

--
__
Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid

lo...@cal-solar.com  californiasolarco.com 


*Main:530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax:530-274-7518*

**




*Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Lorenzo Ortiz]

Thanks Mac. Yeah, Tigo was my first choice but then a search turned up this
product, the FireRaptor

.
Funny name and something I haven't heard a lot about but it does allow for
a 2:1 ratio so could help save on costs.
But I'm wary to be a guinea pig for unproven tech.

These new rules, while having good intentions, are seriously impacting off
grid designs where most sites, like you mentioned, are *way* far away from
the nearest fire department. So, kind of pointless in my opinion. But I
don't make the rules...

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 10:37 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Loren,
>
> We try to stay off the roof for off-grid in Colorado but I'm about to do
> an 8 panel, 2 string system because of a building code where this cabin is
> located.
> I talked with Tigo about it and the parts list is:
>
> 8 x's Tigo TS4-A-F for each module
> 1 x's Tigo RSS
>
> The RSS will signal the TS4s to shutdown if power is lost to the RSS.
> Included in the RSS box is a 120 Vac to 12Vdc out power supply.  However,
> since the RSS is 12 vdc (max of 1A) I'm getting a buck converter to power
> this so the inverter can be turned off in the winter time when the cabin is
> unoccupied.  The cost isn't too bad.
>
> I'll be honest though, I think this is a terrible idea.  Any communication
> box that can shut off charge to the batteries over winter at an unoccupied
> site is asking for trouble.  A communication glitch and the batteries will
> be dead.  This site is about 2 hours from the closest fire department so
> there is nothing to be gained from adding this equipment other than passing
> inspection.
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 11:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz 
> wrote:
>
>> Wrenches,
>>
>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown
>> for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my
>> area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven, *cost-effective*
>> products yet.
>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot
>> about it.
>>
>> Any input is appreciated.
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> --
>>
>> Loren Ortiz
>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid
>>
>> lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com
>>
>> *Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518*
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> 
>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
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>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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-- 

Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid

lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com

*Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518*

-- 
 
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Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Lones Tuss]

Hello all.
Here is some information regarding Module Level Shutdown and OutBack

http://www.outbackpower.com/products-mobile/safety-compliance/item/imo-fireraptor
Tech info: 
http://www.outbackpower.com/resources/documents/product-documentation/item/imo-fireraptor-technical-documentation


  *   UL listed with the FM100 and SkyBox
  *   Available through all Outback distributors
  *   Manual Panel Shutdown to 0V Operated from Ground Level
  *   Automatic Panel Shutdown to 0V at >85°C (185°F) Temperature
  *   Automatic Panel Shutdown to 0V on External Power Loss
  *   Hardwire or Mobile Communication Alarm Signalling
  *   Compliant with NEC 2014 & NEC 2017
  *   Suitable for New Installations or Retro-Fit


From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Lorenzo Ortiz
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 10:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or 
requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. **

Wrenches,

Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for 
off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and 
I haven't found any reliable, proven, cost-effective products yet.
I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

--
  
[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SNW41qVSpfo_yQlKW9a9netwEMmohllF&revid=0B6l5VcsZgAv3TlU5UTJwVXFHMXlpR05jOE9ndlhoK3BwejA0PQ]
Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid

lo...@cal-solar.com 
californiasolarco.com


Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 530-274-7518





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Glenn Burt]

The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with an 
inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec Alliance 
standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter manufacturer and 
Tigo.When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for 
control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible 
incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways.We have been told of 
such hiccups by our distributor, and they are pushing the IMO Fire raptor 
solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA branded Tigo devices so have no 
feedback on their use with the RSS controller, only with the SMA inverter 
control of the rooftop devices.I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and 
the all Togo option looks straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of 
times now, but have not yet done an install.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so 
please excuse typos and spelling errors.-- Original message--From: 
Jerry Shafe
 rDate: Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] 
Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systemsWrenchesYes l am looking at the Tigo, 
they work with SMA and outback, JerryOn Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo 
Ortiz  wrote:Wrenches,Are any of you looking ahead at 
solutions for module level rapid shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being 
implemented next year (at least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, 
proven, cost-effective products yet. I know Tigo has some sort of inline 
component but haven't heard a lot about it.Any input is appreciated.Thanks--   
Loren Ortiz Technical PV Design Specialist - 
Commercial/Residential/off-gridlo...@cal-solar.com  californiasolarco.comMain: 
530-274-3671 ext: 311   Fax: 530-274-7518      


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Chris Sparadeo]

For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run
of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work.
Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it
gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I
haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a
great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo 
wrote:

> For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run
> of the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work.
> Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it
> gets tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I
> haven’t found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a
> great opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution.
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt  wrote:
>
>> The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with
>> an inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec
>> Alliance standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter
>> manufacturer and Tigo.
>> When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for
>> control, the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible
>> incompatibility and finger pointing if things go sideways.
>>
>> We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are
>> pushing the IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA
>> branded Tigo devices so have no feedback on their use with the RSS
>> controller, only with the SMA inverter control of the rooftop devices.
>> I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks
>> straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have
>> not yet done an install.
>>
>> -Glenn
>> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>>
>> -- Original message--
>> *From: *Jerry Shafer
>> *Date: *Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM
>> *To: *RE-wrenches;
>> *Cc: *
>> *Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems
>>
>> Wrenches
>> Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback,
>> Jerry
>>
>> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Wrenches,
>>>
>>> Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid
>>> shutdown for off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at
>>> least in my area) and I haven't found any reliable, proven,
>>> *cost-effective* products yet.
>>> I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot
>>> about it.
>>>
>>> Any input is appreciated.
>>>
>>> Thanks
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Loren Ortiz
>>> Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid
>>>
>>> lo...@cal-solar.com californiasolarco.com
>>>
>>> *Main: 530-274-3671 <530-274-3671> ext: 311 * *Fax: 530-274-7518
>>> <530-274-7518>*
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> < /div>
>>>
>>
>>> 
>>> *Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945*
>>> ___
>>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
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>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
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>> Change listserver email address & settings:
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>> --
>
> *Chris Sparadeo*
>
> *NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional # 042919-015652*
>
> Catamount Solar, LLC
>
> 4 Randolph Ave., Randolph, VT 05060
>
> C_(802) 369-4458
>
> O_(802) 728-3600
>
> www.CatamountSolar.com 
>
>
>
> --
Chris Sparadeo


C_802-369-4458
H_802-728-3059
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

[Jason Fisher (STC)]

Just a reminder to everyone struggling with this issue that only 
building-attached circuits energized by PV sources require RSD. So ground 
mounts generally don’t, or at least would only require a disconnect at the 
building if sending dc circuits into buildings.

Energy Storage is covered under article 706 in 2017 and does not require any 
shutdown, just sensible disconnection requirements.

Jason Fisher


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Chris Sparadeo 
Sent: Friday, September 27, 2019 5:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run of 
the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. 
Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets 
tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven’t 
found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great 
opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:59 PM Chris Sparadeo 
mailto:c...@catamountsolar.com>> wrote:
For AC coupled battery based systems it’s a pretty easy solution. Any run of 
the mill module level RSD compliant grid tied inverter system can work. 
Obviously, there are major advantages to DC coupling and this is were it gets 
tricky. Outback has a nice string level RSD option with the ICS, but I haven’t 
found a comparable solution for other products. This seems like a great 
opportunity for a company like MidNite to create a solution.

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 6:21 PM Glenn Burt 
mailto:glenn.b...@glbcc.com>> wrote:
The difference in topologies is that when the Tigo devices are used with an 
inverter driving the control is that it is relying on the Sunspec Alliance 
standard to be implemented correctly between the inverter manufacturer and Tigo.
When using the Tigo devices at the modules and the Togo RSS box for control, 
the inverter is not involved and it removes a layer of possible incompatibility 
and finger pointing if things go sideways.

We have been told of such hiccups by our distributor, and they are pushing the 
IMO Fire raptor solution. Unfortunately they sell the SMA branded Tigo devices 
so have no feedback on their use with the RSS controller, only with the SMA 
inverter control of the rooftop devices.
I have attended a couple of Tigo trainings, and the all Togo option looks 
straightforward. We have quoted their use a couple of times now, but have not 
yet done an install.

-Glenn
Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.

-- Original message--
From: Jerry Shafer
Date: Fri, Sep 27, 2019 1:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches;
Cc:
Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Module-Level Shutdown for off grid systems

Wrenches
Yes l am looking at the Tigo, they work with SMA and outback,
Jerry

On Fri, Sep 27, 2019, 10:24 AM Lorenzo Ortiz 
mailto:lore...@cal-solar.com>> wrote:
Wrenches,

Are any of you looking ahead at solutions for module level rapid shutdown for 
off grid? Here in CA it's being implemented next year (at least in my area) and 
I haven't found any reliable, proven, cost-effective products yet.
I know Tigo has some sort of inline component but haven't heard a lot about it.

Any input is appreciated.

Thanks

--
  
[https://docs.google.com/uc?export=download&id=1SNW41qVSpfo_yQlKW9a9netwEMmohllF&revid=0B6l5VcsZgAv3TlU5UTJwVXFHMXlpR05jOE9ndlhoK3BwejA0PQ]
Loren Ortiz
Technical PV Design Specialist - Commercial/Residential/Off-Grid

lo...@cal-solar.com 
californiasolarco.com

Main: 530-274-3671 ext: 311 Fax: 
530-274-7518




< /div>

[https://californiasolarco.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/Email-Sig-Logo3.png]
Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Recycling of LI vs Pb

[Kirpal]

Hi JayThere are numerous articles.  Here are a fewI havn't
researched  much more than these articles...But it looks like
interesting...Not really sure if they are up to full speed yet

https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1122631_tesla-launches-battery-recycling-at-nevada-gigafactory
https://electrek.co/2019/04/16/tesla-battery-recycling-system/
https://cleantechnica.com/2018/06/07/yes-tesla-recycles-all-of-its-spent-batteries-wants-to-do-more-in-the-future/

This one I found the most interesting:
https://medium.com/tradr/teslas-approach-to-recycling-is-the-way-of-the-future-for-sustainable-production-5af99b62aa0e
Cheers

Kirpal Khalsa
Oregon LRT#25
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Oregon Solarworks LLC
www.oregonsolarworks.com
541-299-0402


On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 1:27 PM Jay  wrote:

> Hi Kirpal,
>
> Do you know of any information about this recycling at Tesla?
> Links, etc
>
> Thx
> Jay
>
> On Sep 27, 2019, at 7:49 AM, Kirpal  wrote:
>
> 
> Hi Mark.  Great question!  This is an important consideration.  Tesla has
> a recycling facility at their Nevada plant for their batteries.  Curious
> how other LFP manufacturers recommend end of life handling.
> Speaking of waste,  As you all are installing systems of all varieties,
> what are you finding with regard to non sustainable packaging in all your
> "clean" energy materials.  I am troubled that after many of our installs we
> have a pile of plastic and styrofoam as big as the the balance of system
> installation.  Sometimes bigger.  It drives me crazy to have this blight on
> our installation.  I am often embarrassed when the customer points out this
> dichotomy of the installation.  Which manufacturers are you happiest with
> in regards to environmentally friendly packaging materials for inverters,
> other balance of system, and batteries  (probably LFePho4)?  Collectively
> we should have the ability to pressure them to use more sustainable
> packaging.
> I have seen some improvements and some half way implemented changes, but a
> lot more can be done to improve this aspect of our industry.  All of us can
> helpTogether we have a big voice.
>
> Sunny Regards,
> Kirpal Khalsa
> Oregon LRT#25
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Oregon Solarworks LLC
> www.oregonsolarworks.com
> 541-299-0402
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 27, 2019 at 7:34 AM Mark Frye  wrote:
>
>> Folks,
>>
>> Has anyone done a good review of the current state of affairs re:
>> recycling Li batteries?
>>
>> I am a bit in the past with a starry-eyed view of Pb with HUP, in
>> particular, believing that Pb batteries have almost a closed cycle
>> product life, ie, we already have infrastructure to recycle something
>> like 95% of the material in Pb batteries.
>>
>> Taking a step back, has our industry become just as jaded by our shiny
>> new technology as every other sector of our economy, focusing on
>> impressive new short term outcomes that are not really embedded within
>> the frame work of a sustainable future?
>>
>> This is why I ask about the recyclablility / sustainability of Li
>> batteries? Some what agnostic here but wondering what the thinking
>> around this is?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Mark Frye
>>
>>
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