[RE-wrenches] Real world production data for bifacials?

[greg egan]

Wrenches, good health to you and your loved ones.  I have a client that 
thinks he wants bifacial modules since his site is in the Alaskan arctic 
and they have snow a significant amount of the year.  I've been 
installing standard modules on racks that can be set at 90 deg in the 
fall and set back to ~lat -15deg in the spring.  They are snow free in 
the spring when it's clear and cold and they definitely make more power 
than the ones I see siting with snow on them all year.  A 6.2 kW array 
will put out 5.8kW AC under perfect conditions (90 deg tilt, solar noon, 
clear sky, cold etc.)


Anyway, I browsed the archives and in general looks like they require 
special racking , clamps and raise the price significantly.  Have any of 
you installed some and seen increased power production in snow country 
and if so has it made up for the extra cost, extra labor etc.?  Have the 
modules been reliable? I'm looking for data on installed systems and 
maybe recommendations on where I can get price and availability on some 
so I can help my customer make an informed decision.


All the best,

Greg Egan

Remote Power Inc.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Kent Osterberg]

Jay,

Do you mean: use the Aux relay to activate the Remote Power Off? What is 
the low battery setting range for the Aux relay? I don't see it in the 
manual.


Kent Osterberg
Blue Mountain Solar


On 3/22/2020 4:04 PM, Jay wrote:

Ray,
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC 
output at what ever voltage you want?


Jay





On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:



That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to 
catch the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still 
enough reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge 
controllers in operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With 
Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it still requires manual 
reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having serious trouble 
with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 
48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle 
life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of 
Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC 
line that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In 
addition set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>> wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends
48V as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10%
State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1%
State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations
will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are
not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V.
Which ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid
Solar   wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back
in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has
the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would
be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to
be sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both
Outback and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209
813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing
has recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names
states, its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp
breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a
bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use
an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the
parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD
above 48, which basically makes it incompatible with most
Li+ batteries. Their tech support has been abysmal as
well.   We're looking forward to them as one of the
larger companies in the business, to put additional
resources into their engineering, and come out with at
least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20
kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Sorry about spell check

It should have read. 
Have you thought about...

> On Mar 22, 2020, at 4:04 PM, Jay  wrote:
> 
> 
> Ray, 
> Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
> what ever voltage you want?
> 
> Jay
> 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>> 
>> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
>> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left 
>> to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid 
>> the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but 
>> it still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been 
>> having serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set 
>> the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the 
>> cycle life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of 
>> Li+, even under load.  
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>>> Wrenches
>>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
>>> when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
>>> flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
>>> wrote:
 Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
 LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
 
 "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
 Charge)
 BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
 Charge)
 Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
 We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
 adjust as necessary.
 To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel 
 in the tank”."
 
 I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
 
 Allan
 
> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
>> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
>> talking about please?
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> 
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi Ray,
>>> 
>>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
>>> the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that 
>>> got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
>>> discontinued products.
>>> 
>>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>>> 
>>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
>>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are 
>>> in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>>> 
>>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
>>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
>>> 
>>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>>> text 209 813 0060
>>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
>>> 
>>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
>>> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
>>> 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
>>> lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
>>> an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors 
>>> to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
>>> guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
>>> (including Outback). 
>>> 
>>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
>>> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
>>> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as 
>>> one of the larger companies in the business, to put additional 
>>> resources into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware 
>>> update to correct this problem.  
>>> 
>>> Ray Walters
>>> Remote Solar
>>> 303 505-8760
>>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>>> Hello Wrenches,
>>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Ray, 
Have you heard bought about using the Aux relay to control the AC output at 
what ever voltage you want?

Jay




> On Mar 22, 2020, at 3:13 PM, Ray  wrote:
> 
> 
> That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch the 
> beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough reserve left 
> to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in operation, and avoid 
> the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't have the dark start, but it 
> still requires manual reset.   This isn't theoretical, we have been having 
> serious trouble with a system because of Schneider's inability to set the LVD 
> above 48 v.  Also setting the voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle 
> life of these batteries.  Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even 
> under load.  
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:
>> Wrenches
>> Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that 
>> when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the 
>> flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.
>> 
>> On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar  
>> wrote:
>>> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as LBCO, 
>>> but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
>>> 
>>> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge)
>>> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge)
>>> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
>>> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and 
>>> adjust as necessary.
>>> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel 
>>> in the tank”."
>>> 
>>> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 44V, 
>>> leaving 1% left to reboot.
>>> 
>>> Allan
>>> 
 On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
 Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
 
 Ray Walters
 Remote Solar
 303 505-8760
 On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
> many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
> talking about please?
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> 
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>>  wrote:
>> 
>> Hi Ray,
>> 
>> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and 
>> the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got 
>> older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued 
>> products.
>> 
>> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>> 
>> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
>> guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are 
>> in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>> 
>> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
>> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps. 
>> 
>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>> "we go where powerlines don't"
>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
>> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
>> text 209 813 0060
>> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:
>> 
>> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently 
>> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 
>> 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 
>> lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use 
>> an insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to 
>> the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup 
>> guide with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer 
>> (including Outback). 
>> 
>> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which 
>> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech 
>> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one 
>> of the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources 
>> into their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to 
>> correct this problem.  
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>> Hello Wrenches,
>> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 
>> kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback 
>> FM charge controllers.
>> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi 
>> batteries.
>> Does any one have any recommendations of which

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

That's the whole point: we need the LBCO to be higher than 48v to catch 
the beginning of that steep drop off, so that there is still enough 
reserve left to keep the monitoring and solar charge controllers in 
operation, and avoid the dreaded dark start.  With Simpliphi, we don't 
have the dark start, but it still requires manual reset.   This isn't 
theoretical, we have been having serious trouble with a system because 
of Schneider's inability to set the LVD above 48 v.  Also setting the 
voltage higher (lower DOD) extends the cycle life of these batteries.  
Otherwise, I love the stable 51 volts of Li+, even under load.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/22/20 4:15 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line 
that when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition 
set the flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.


On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar > wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V
as LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:

"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State
of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State
of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations
will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD
setting and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little
reserve “fuel in the tank”."

I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut
down at 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.

Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are
not too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which
ones are you talking about please?

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
 text 209 813 0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
  wrote:


Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V
LBCO and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back
in its day that got older units updated. Schneider still has
the firmware under discontinued products.

XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would
be my guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be
sure they are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.

I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback
and Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.

*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail
offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 813
0060*

On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
 wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names
states, its simple. Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker
built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit
smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an
insulated 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel
conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No monitoring, but they
do have an handy setup guide with recommended settings,
specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above
48, which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+
batteries.  Their tech support has been abysmal as well.  
We're looking forward to them as one of the larger
companies in the business, to put additional resources into
their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware
update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20
kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with
an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle
Born or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

___
List spo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Don't let the LBCU scare you as this battery has such a flat SOC line that
when it falls off there is not much left in the tank. In addition set the
flex net to low SOC at 15% and critical to 10%.

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 12:15 PM Sindelar Solar 
wrote:

> Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as
> LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:
>
> "Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of
> Charge)
> BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of
> Charge)
> Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
> We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting and
> adjust as necessary.
> To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve “fuel
> in the tank”."
>
> I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at
> 44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.
>
> Allan
> On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many
> batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking
> about please?
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>   wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the
> range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older
> units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.
>
> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>
> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
> that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
> Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>
> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
>  wrote:
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

The possibility of dark start and 30% higher cost are 2 reasons we have 
preferred Simpliphi lately. Simpliphi just requires resetting its 
breaker on top of the battery.  Also the Simpliphi allows more layouts, 
so it doesn't stick out into the room.  We have one customer that has a 
system with each, and so far they prefer the Simpliphi over the Blue 
Ion.  Both are high quality solutions, but being able to afford more kWh 
of storage solves many issues.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/22/20 3:14 PM, Sindelar Solar wrote:


Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:


"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of 
Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of 
Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will 
vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting 
and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
“fuel in the tank”."


I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.


Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not 
too many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones 
are you talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 
813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware 
under discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states,
its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into
the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16
but with carry handles. We use an insulated 2 pole combiner
block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide
with recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer
(including Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come
out with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born
or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Sindelar Solar]

Specifically with Blue Ion, the installation manual recommends 48V as 
LBCO, but also recommends setting it a bit higher:


"Recommended Low Voltage Disconnect Setting: 48 VDC (~2-10% State of Charge)
BMU will power down the Blue Ion 2.0 cabinet at 44 VDC (<1% State of Charge)
Based on system discharge patterns, SoC and voltage correlations will vary.
We recommend you err on the side of caution with a higher LVD setting 
and adjust as necessary.
To prevent a dark start event, we recommend leaving a little reserve 
“fuel in the tank”."


I have used 48VDC with success, and had one system indeed shut down at 
44V, leaving 1% left to reboot.


Allan

On 3/22/2020 12:44 PM, Ray wrote:


Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 
813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states,
its simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into
the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16
but with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner
block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable. 
No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including
Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out
with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born
or SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jerry Shafer]

Wrenches
Blue ion is a better solution, no extra parts cables or racking, all part
of the "system" and works very well
Jerry

On Sun, Mar 22, 2020, 11:44 AM Ray  wrote:

> Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too many
> batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you talking
> about please?
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
>   wrote:
>
> Hi Ray,
>
> Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO and the
> range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day that got older
> units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under discontinued products.
>
> XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.
>
> XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my guess
> that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they are in
> Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.
>
> I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and
> Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray 
>  wrote:
>
> We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has recently
> gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its simple.  Each 3.8
> kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the top, weigh about 75 lbs, and
> are a bit smaller than an L16 but with carry handles.  We use an insulated
> 2 pole combiner block to run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0
> cable.  No monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
> recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including Outback).
>
> Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48, which
> basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries.  Their tech
> support has been abysmal as well.   We're looking forward to them as one of
> the larger companies in the business, to put additional resources into
> their engineering, and come out with at least a firmware update to correct
> this problem.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:
>
> Hello Wrenches,
> I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour
> 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback Radian and Outback FM charge
> controllers.
> They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi
> batteries.
> Does any one have any recommendations of which battery functions best with
> the Outback system.
> Thanks,
> David Katz
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Ray]

Blue Ion, and Simpliphi that I know of.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/21/20 2:48 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:


I see what you mean Ray. Sorry I misread your mail. There are not too 
many batteries out there that need LBCO above 48V. Which ones are you 
talking about please?


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*

*"we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail offgridso...@sti.net  text 209 813 
0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:18:21 -0700, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
 wrote:



Hi Ray,

Which XW? There are 3 now. The old graybox XW defaults at 44V LBCO 
and the range is 40 to 48V. There also was firmware back in its day 
that got older units updated. Schneider still has the firmware under 
discontinued products.


XW+ is default 44V and adjustable 36 to 44 vdc.

XW pro is running downstairs and I will take a look. It would be my 
guess that it is the same as XW+. I think one needs to be sure they 
are in Advanced settings to tweak LBCO also.


I am not plugging Schneider and have done work for both Outback and 
Schneider as well as my clients. Hope this helps.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 11:46:21 -0400, Ray  wrote:

We've been having good luck with SImpliphi, the pricing has
recently gotten much more competitive.  As it's names states, its
simple.  Each 3.8 kWh unit has an 80 amp breaker built into the
top, weigh about 75 lbs, and are a bit smaller than an L16 but
with carry handles.  We use an insulated 2 pole combiner block to
run all the parallel conductors to the main 2/0 cable.  No
monitoring, but they do have an handy setup guide with
recommended settings, specific for each manufacturer (including
Outback).

Note to all:  Schneider XW can still not set its LVD above 48,
which basically makes it incompatible with most Li+ batteries. 
Their tech support has been abysmal as well. We're looking
forward to them as one of the larger companies in the business,
to put additional resources into their engineering, and come out
with at least a firmware update to correct this problem.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 3/20/20 3:59 PM, David Katz wrote:

Hello Wrenches,
I am working with some people that want to use a 20 kw-hour
to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
Radian and Outback FM charge controllers.
They are considering using Discover, Blue-Ion, Battle Born or
SimpliPhi batteries.
Does any one have any recommendations of which battery
functions best with the Outback system.
Thanks,
David Katz

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ground mount fire code clarifications

[Jeff Clearwater]

Yes Sonoma county requires 30' minimum from ground arrays for fire 
setbacks.  and by extension 30' from property lines (as an array owner 
can't control a neighbors brush removal) More is surely advised!  I 
imagine other CA counties have similar requirements.


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote on 3/20/20 5:32 PM:


In our area of California, when the green grass dies and turns brown, 
the area under any type of array needs to be free of grass. An array 
could ignite a wildfire if the array were emit sparks. This is a very 
rare condition but it can happen to even the best design and module type.


There would not be any brush anywhere near an array. 10 feet from any 
point of the array makes sense but if there were a wildfire I would 
want alot more. 100 feet is typical for the zone around a home. That 
is what our AHJ wants to see in an inspection. We are in a very 
dangerous area for wildfires in the southern Sierra.


Brush does not count as grass. An array should survive a grass fire. 
Brush would be much more dangerous and must be kept clear as it is a 
much larger heat source than grass. I hope this is helpful.


*Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" 
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail offgridso...@sti.net 
 text 209 813 0060*


On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 17:06:01 -0600, Dan Fink  wrote:

Hello esteemed Wrenches; I am trying to clear this up for a client 
and his AHJ, which is also puzzled at how to interpret IFC 2018, 
Section 1204.4, which states:


Setback requirements shall not apply to ground-mounted,
free-standing photovoltaic arrays. A clear, brush-free area of 10
feet (3048 mm) shall be required for ground-mounted photovoltaic
arrays.

I found one lone informational note in a white paper stating this was 
to prevent a burning PV array from igniting surrounding vegetation 
and the fire spreading.

So, has anyone dealt with an AHJ on this before? Our questions are:

  * What exactly is a "free-standing photovoltaic array" that is
exempt? A pole mount? Couldn't burning debris from that ignite
vegetation underneath?
  * What exactly does "A clear, brush-free area of 10 feet (3048 mm)"
mean? "10 feet" is a linear measurement, not an area, that would
be in square feet.
  * What is "brush"? Does grass count as brush?

I would interpret this on the safe side as meaning that all 
vegetation under the PV array and out to a 10 foot perimeter should 
be cleared, except for pole-mount arrays (that exception makes no 
sense to me).
I always recommend to clients that the area /under/ the ground mount 
array should be pea gravel bordered by railroad ties, but out to 10 
feet from the array edge seems excessive.

Any input greatly appreciated!
Dan Fink
Executive Director, Buckville Energy Consulting
NABCEP PV Associate
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers
d anbo...@gmail.com 


970-672-4342




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--
~~~
Jeff Clearwater
Village Power Design
linkedin 
www.villagepowerdesign.com 
cell - 413-559-9763
~~~
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium Ion Batteries

[Jay]

Yea weird times. Ha

I guess Zeke figured it out, oh well

I’ve got 4 meters, and they agree if and only if they get to full every few 
days. If it goes longer they get further off. And I’m talking multiple 
trimetrics all set exactly the same. 

Given the flat curve of LipO, I don’t know if I trust external monitoring. 
But you might have better data which I’d like to hear. Jay



> On Mar 21, 2020, at 11:44 AM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Hi Jay,
> 
> Been awhile. Pretty weird times. Really nice to be off the grid, I think you 
> would agree!
> 
> The answer to your question is you don't know if it is accurate. I would call 
> the tweaking of the numbers programmed into Flexnet or the Schneider bat mon 
> :"for indication only" You can observe it and just tweek/compare to the 
> battery internal Soc.
> 
>  The external monitor will have to have the shunt and all the other stuff 
> that makes it a PITA.
> 
> It does get basic Soc data and battery temp out to Optics and Insight2. 
> Simply Phi had a nice paper on how to tweek/set Schneider and Outback bat 
> mons. I have used that. The good news is that LFP is pretty stable (over 
> time) and would not have the error stacking up like LA does in Soc.
> 
> What happened to your friend with needing Insight2 advice? He probably 
> figured it out as it is not that hard
> 
> 
> 
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
> 
> On Sat, 21 Mar 2020 10:08:32 -0700, Jay  wrote:
> > Hi Dave,
> > 
> > How do you know that the OB FNDC  is correct vs the internal BMS?
> > 
> > Jay
> > 
> > Peltz Power. 
> > 
> > 
> >> On Mar 21, 2020, at 10:02 AM, penobscotso...@midmaine.com wrote:
> >> 
> >> Fortress EVaults have their own lcd screen with Soc, but Dave is right,
> >> it's not as accurate on RE Optics. We do get a battery reading without
> >> any
> >> add-ons, they are just usually off up to 10% from each other.
> >>> 
> >>> 
> >>> Hi David,
> >>> 
> >>> They all work but none of them can get Soc and a few other
> >>> things out to Optics unless you add an external Outback Battery monitor.
> >>> Outback has said they plan to have their own Lithium battery out in the
> >>> Fall.
> >>> 
> >>> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> >>> "we go where powerlines
> >>> don't"
> >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ [1]
> >>> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> >>> [2]
> >>> text 209 813 0060
> >>> 
> >>> On Fri, 20 Mar 2020 12:59:51 -0700, David Katz
> >>> wrote:   Hello Wrenches, I am working with some people that want to use
> >>> a
> >>> 20 kw-hour to 30 kw-hour 48 volt lithium-ion battery with an Outback
> >>> Radian
> >>> and Outback FM charge controllers. They are considering using Discover,
> >>> Blue-Ion, Battle Born or SimpliPhi batteries. Does any one have any
> >>> recommendations of which battery functions best with the Outback system.
> >>> Thanks, David Katz
> >>> 
> >>> Links:
> >>> --
> >>> [1]
> >>> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> >>> [2] mailto:offgridso...@sti.net
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