Re: [RE-wrenches] The Questions of product reliability
Dana and Wrenches I also have been around for quite awhile and Dana is spot on, we have been lied too to so many times, some from distributors, some manufactures. We still are in the wild west of renewables, Chinese module manufacturers with no clear contact information, inverter manufacturers that say they will alway be compatible with the new product lines up till they are not. We need to be the common sense for our customers, explain some design issues that they may want to avoid and give them solutions. Battery technology is what we will all have to understand and see through the mist for the facts not the hype. I will say that we are all out there to do good be good and help our customers make the best decision so when it sounds like an African Prince wants to make you a deal you all know what to do, we are in the same boat with solar separate the good from the bad and keep up the good fight. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 10:04 AM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having been in the solar biz since 1988 I can, but will not make a list of > products that have come & gone; products that have been Guinea pigged on > all of us, promises that have been made & not kept, equipment that has > caught fire & individuals that have made unrealistic promises to clients > that have really damaged the reputations of the balance of those of us who > are trying to build a reliable & reputable reputations in a still growing > now teen aged industry. > > > > That said I have held back on installing new product introductions & still > do on say micro inverters: they get really hot & really cold & the long > term reliability of a product that suffers that will suffer in the long > run. I do not know of many 5-8 year old micro inverter systems that have > not had at least some inverter components replaced. I remember the first > micro inverter training class that I attended & the presenter kept using > the term mean time to failure, & I questioned this term. The response was > that the components used in similar situations should allow for a similar > life span. I had this discussion today with a friend who has a unobstructed > south facing roof with no shading, with a micro inverter system that is > looking at expanding & wanted more micro inverters because he felt the > information on what every inverter/module pair was doing was important. I > asked him but what fails? The answer was: Not the Module but the inverter > that was the weak link. So why use a micro invert in his application? > > > > String inverters? Less so but I have seen failure rashes of at least 1 > Manu that have surfaced I have had to address multiple similar sized units > replacement, at least I was standing on the ground to repair. > > > > New products for offgrid & grid tie continue to come online regularly. > Today at least UL/ETL type testing awards some level of reliability & takes > some of the concern out for us as installers. > > > > At this point you are wondering where the heck is I am going with this > rant? > > > >- How many companies have really followed thru with their promises? >- How many companies products really last as promised? >- How many companies have available, accurate, & prompt/timely >customer tech service? >- How many companies get the replacement components out the door >promptly? > > > > I really try to support manufacturers, wholesalers, & companies that meet > these criteria. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel - E - d...@solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, June 3, 2022 9:41 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration > is not on any near-term path to completion > > > > When it comes to what manufacturers will have in the future, > guaranteeing or stating that a product will have a feature in the future is > mostly doomed to failure, enphase, LG Chem, Ford and so many > obsolete inverter manufacturers that have come and gone. You might as well > be selling snake oil, you are backing yourself into a corner that has no > good way out, just dont sell something that is not there yet. You can use > this in your favor by telling your customer at the kitchen table that > anyone that is selling you on a gen set integration better be able to back > it up with facts and if they can't, Well, now the customer will have more > belief in you as a result. > > SE has some grand plans but until they are in place and actually working > do yourself a favor and don't sell what is not available yet. You need to > remember that you are a contractor or acting in behalf of a contractor and > stating something that is not fact for being fact is a lie and that can get > the contractor in hot water. > > Jerry > > NABCEP PV Inspector > > > > On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 6:24 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < > re-wr
Re: [RE-wrenches] The Questions of product reliability
My experience with microinverters is much different. Yes, there were lots of Enphase M190 replacements. But of the 40 M215s on my roof, only one has failed in 9 years. Each successive generation has been more reliable. I consider the failure rate at this point totally acceptable, even for the systems I installed 12 plus years ago. And this is in one of the most challenging environments of Southwest Florida. The answer to your four questions in my opinion is: Enphase, Enphase, Enphase, and Enphase. I'll put a little asterisk with "mostly" by each one. The promises have been largely met, with relative minor failure issues and performance that exceeds expectations. The products last, at least long enough so far that it's no worse than nightmares with some other manufacturers' failure rates. Customer service is world class, especially in relative terms. When they had a timeliness issue they recognized it and solved it. While there have been minor delays at times, the ease and low cost of stocking compatible models for advance replacement allows me to provide world class warranty support. I have voiced my complaints about Enphase here numerous times, but on balance I don't see anyone else doing it better. I will admit, the roofs we work on are typically 6 in 12 or less, so micro swaps are an easy job, more often than not with 1 person even. I'm sure that plays a part in the decisions of my northern colleagues with steeper roof pitches to contend with. Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group On Fri, Jun 3, 2022, 1:04 PM Dana Orzel via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Having been in the solar biz since 1988 I can, but will not make a list of > products that have come & gone; products that have been Guinea pigged on > all of us, promises that have been made & not kept, equipment that has > caught fire & individuals that have made unrealistic promises to clients > that have really damaged the reputations of the balance of those of us who > are trying to build a reliable & reputable reputations in a still growing > now teen aged industry. > > > > That said I have held back on installing new product introductions & still > do on say micro inverters: they get really hot & really cold & the long > term reliability of a product that suffers that will suffer in the long > run. I do not know of many 5-8 year old micro inverter systems that have > not had at least some inverter components replaced. I remember the first > micro inverter training class that I attended & the presenter kept using > the term mean time to failure, & I questioned this term. The response was > that the components used in similar situations should allow for a similar > life span. I had this discussion today with a friend who has a unobstructed > south facing roof with no shading, with a micro inverter system that is > looking at expanding & wanted more micro inverters because he felt the > information on what every inverter/module pair was doing was important. I > asked him but what fails? The answer was: Not the Module but the inverter > that was the weak link. So why use a micro invert in his application? > > > > String inverters? Less so but I have seen failure rashes of at least 1 > Manu that have surfaced I have had to address multiple similar sized units > replacement, at least I was standing on the ground to repair. > > > > New products for offgrid & grid tie continue to come online regularly. > Today at least UL/ETL type testing awards some level of reliability & takes > some of the concern out for us as installers. > > > > At this point you are wondering where the heck is I am going with this > rant? > > > >- How many companies have really followed thru with their promises? >- How many companies products really last as promised? >- How many companies have available, accurate, & prompt/timely >customer tech service? >- How many companies get the replacement components out the door >promptly? > > > > I really try to support manufacturers, wholesalers, & companies that meet > these criteria. > > > > > > > > Dana Orzel - E - d...@solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 > > > > *From:* RE-wrenches *On > Behalf Of *Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches > *Sent:* Friday, June 3, 2022 9:41 AM > *To:* RE-wrenches > *Cc:* Jerry Shafer > *Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration > is not on any near-term path to completion > > > > When it comes to what manufacturers will have in the future, > guaranteeing or stating that a product will have a feature in the future is > mostly doomed to failure, enphase, LG Chem, Ford and so many > obsolete inverter manufacturers that have come and gone. You might as well > be selling snake oil, you are backing yourself into a corner that has no > good way out, just dont sell something that is not there yet. You can use > this in your favor by telling your customer at the kitchen table that > anyone that is selling you on a gen set in
[RE-wrenches] The Questions of product reliability
Having been in the solar biz since 1988 I can, but will not make a list of products that have come & gone; products that have been Guinea pigged on all of us, promises that have been made & not kept, equipment that has caught fire & individuals that have made unrealistic promises to clients that have really damaged the reputations of the balance of those of us who are trying to build a reliable & reputable reputations in a still growing now teen aged industry. That said I have held back on installing new product introductions & still do on say micro inverters: they get really hot & really cold & the long term reliability of a product that suffers that will suffer in the long run. I do not know of many 5-8 year old micro inverter systems that have not had at least some inverter components replaced. I remember the first micro inverter training class that I attended & the presenter kept using the term mean time to failure, & I questioned this term. The response was that the components used in similar situations should allow for a similar life span. I had this discussion today with a friend who has a unobstructed south facing roof with no shading, with a micro inverter system that is looking at expanding & wanted more micro inverters because he felt the information on what every inverter/module pair was doing was important. I asked him but what fails? The answer was: Not the Module but the inverter that was the weak link. So why use a micro invert in his application? String inverters? Less so but I have seen failure rashes of at least 1 Manu that have surfaced I have had to address multiple similar sized units replacement, at least I was standing on the ground to repair. New products for offgrid & grid tie continue to come online regularly. Today at least UL/ETL type testing awards some level of reliability & takes some of the concern out for us as installers. At this point you are wondering where the heck is I am going with this rant? * How many companies have really followed thru with their promises? * How many companies products really last as promised? * How many companies have available, accurate, & prompt/timely customer tech service? * How many companies get the replacement components out the door promptly? I really try to support manufacturers, wholesalers, & companies that meet these criteria. Dana Orzel - E - d...@solarwork.com - C - 208.721.7003 From: RE-wrenches On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches Sent: Friday, June 3, 2022 9:41 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: Jerry Shafer Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion When it comes to what manufacturers will have in the future, guaranteeing or stating that a product will have a feature in the future is mostly doomed to failure, enphase, LG Chem, Ford and so many obsolete inverter manufacturers that have come and gone. You might as well be selling snake oil, you are backing yourself into a corner that has no good way out, just dont sell something that is not there yet. You can use this in your favor by telling your customer at the kitchen table that anyone that is selling you on a gen set integration better be able to back it up with facts and if they can't, Well, now the customer will have more belief in you as a result. SE has some grand plans but until they are in place and actually working do yourself a favor and don't sell what is not available yet. You need to remember that you are a contractor or acting in behalf of a contractor and stating something that is not fact for being fact is a lie and that can get the contractor in hot water. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 6:24 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> > wrote: Wrenches, This more of a public service announcement. Many of us have installed Energy Hub inverters with Backup Interface Units (BIU). Based on SolarEdge marketing materiel, we have told customers that generator integration was on the way. Well, 4th quarter 2021 came and went and still no path forward. I had asked one of the SolarEdge Directors of Sales if SolarEdge could release a formal new release or updated tech note that installers could pass to customers who want to know, “when can I integrate the generator like you told me we could?” SolarEdge won’t make any such announcement and the best I could get form the Director was to perhaps “get it removed from all marketing material.” “Generator – we don’t have an update. This is significantly harder than it might seem. The last thing we can do is have generators or inverters failing. It is not hard to get the generator to turn on/off. It is everything else that a homeowner is going to expect the systems to do together. The ask has been sent up the chain of command to get it removed from all marketing materials.”
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion
I think you're overstating this a bit. The generator integration feature wasn't the make or break selling point. It was simply a response to customer question of whether this would be possible. Of course the answer was that SE said a solution was forthcoming.I hardly believe that is some illegality of an answer.Appreciate your insight.Scot AreyOwner, Solar CenTex Howard "Scot" AreyOwner, Solar CenTex254-300-1228 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion
When it comes to what manufacturers will have in the future, guaranteeing or stating that a product will have a feature in the future is mostly doomed to failure, enphase, LG Chem, Ford and so many obsolete inverter manufacturers that have come and gone. You might as well be selling snake oil, you are backing yourself into a corner that has no good way out, just dont sell something that is not there yet. You can use this in your favor by telling your customer at the kitchen table that anyone that is selling you on a gen set integration better be able to back it up with facts and if they can't, Well, now the customer will have more belief in you as a result. SE has some grand plans but until they are in place and actually working do yourself a favor and don't sell what is not available yet. You need to remember that you are a contractor or acting in behalf of a contractor and stating something that is not fact for being fact is a lie and that can get the contractor in hot water. Jerry NABCEP PV Inspector On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 6:24 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > This more of a public service announcement. Many of us have installed > Energy Hub inverters with Backup Interface Units (BIU). Based on SolarEdge > marketing materiel, we have told customers that generator integration was > on the way. > > > > Well, 4th quarter 2021 came and went and still no path forward. I had > asked one of the SolarEdge Directors of Sales if SolarEdge could release a > formal new release or updated tech note that installers could pass to > customers who want to know, “when can I integrate the generator like you > told me we could?” > > > > SolarEdge won’t make any such announcement and the best I could get form > the Director was to perhaps “get it removed from all marketing material.” > > “Generator – we don’t have an update. This is significantly harder than > it might seem. The last thing we can do is have generators or inverters > failing. It is not hard to get the generator to turn on/off. It is > everything else that a homeowner is going to expect the systems to do > together. The ask has been sent up the chain of command to get it removed > from all marketing materials.” > > > > But that still leaves installers holding the bag, as it was us at kitchen > tables saying, “yes – this capability is coming.” Without SolarEdge > providing a formal release, it has in essence shifted its ‘loss of > goodwill’ to us. > > I’m pretty fired up about it as it is one of many decisions where > SolarEdge shifts costs back to the installers, to their benefit (consider > the long queue for tech support and their response, “ok you have to be > onsite for us to do something before we RMA it.” Which would be fine if we > were not forced to wait hour-plus for tech support. > > > > Would enjoy hearing what you are telling customers. > > > > Scot Arey > > Solar CenTex > ___ > List sponsored by Redwood Alliance > > Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org > > List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org > > Change listserver email address & settings: > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the > other: > https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ > http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org > > List rules & etiquette: > http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm > > Check out or update participant bios: > http://www.members.re-wrenches.org > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion
No hijack at all. Good and necessary dialogue. Thanks. ScotHoward "Scot" AreyOwner, Solar CenTex254-300-1228 ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion
FWIW, the Enphase generator integration rollout has been less than ideal as well. Their list of approved generators is highly restrictive and has obsolete units listed with no clear process for getting current models approved. How are we supposed to sell these systems without clear and confident answers for prospective clients? "That generator might work" doesn't instill confidence. I can't sell that. I understand there might be some technical reasons that the AC coupling is difficult to implement, but when I hear that, I don't hear "difficult." I hear "potentially problematic." It seems to me like a better approach would be to skip the AC coupling of the IQ microinverters, batteries, and generator and isolate the generator from the PV system. Just provide 200A of pass-through from the generator to the loads and use the generator to charge the batteries (if configured to do so, to the extent that capacity is available after powering loads). This would be similar to a traditional multimode inverter setup. The only benefit I see to AC coupling the generator is reducing fuel burn, but that would likely be very minimal and ambiguous as far as a selling point. The downside of course is the need to add another 200A transfer switch to the Smart Controller. And the Tesla Powerwall method of generator integration isn't exactly elegant. Anyway, I didn't mean to hijack the thread, but the point is that the generator integration strategies for these new-school battery systems seem to be flawed. Jason Szumlanski On Fri, Jun 3, 2022 at 9:24 AM Scot Arey via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Wrenches, > > > > This more of a public service announcement. Many of us have installed > Energy Hub inverters with Backup Interface Units (BIU). Based on SolarEdge > marketing materiel, we have told customers that generator integration was > on the way. > > > > Well, 4th quarter 2021 came and went and still no path forward. I had > asked one of the SolarEdge Directors of Sales if SolarEdge could release a > formal new release or updated tech note that installers could pass to > customers who want to know, “when can I integrate the generator like you > told me we could?” > > > > SolarEdge won’t make any such announcement and the best I could get form > the Director was to perhaps “get it removed from all marketing material.” > > “Generator – we don’t have an update. This is significantly harder than > it might seem. The last thing we can do is have generators or inverters > failing. It is not hard to get the generator to turn on/off. It is > everything else that a homeowner is going to expect the systems to do > together. The ask has been sent up the chain of command to get it removed > from all marketing materials.” > > > > But that still leaves installers holding the bag, as it was us at kitchen > tables saying, “yes – this capability is coming.” Without SolarEdge > providing a formal release, it has in essence shifted its ‘loss of > goodwill’ to us. > > I’m pretty fired up about it as it is one of many decisions where > SolarEdge shifts costs back to the installers, to their benefit (consider > the long queue for tech support and their response, “ok you have to be > onsite for us to do something before we RMA it.” Which would be fine if we > were not forced to wait hour-plus for tech support. > > > > Would enjoy hearing what you are telling customers. > > > > Scot Arey > > Solar CenTex > ___ > > ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
[RE-wrenches] Solar Edge - appears generator integration is not on any near-term path to completion
Wrenches, This more of a public service announcement. Many of us have installed Energy Hub inverters with Backup Interface Units (BIU). Based on SolarEdge marketing materiel, we have told customers that generator integration was on the way. Well, 4th quarter 2021 came and went and still no path forward. I had asked one of the SolarEdge Directors of Sales if SolarEdge could release a formal new release or updated tech note that installers could pass to customers who want to know, "when can I integrate the generator like you told me we could?" SolarEdge won't make any such announcement and the best I could get form the Director was to perhaps "get it removed from all marketing material." "Generator - we don't have an update. This is significantly harder than it might seem. The last thing we can do is have generators or inverters failing. It is not hard to get the generator to turn on/off. It is everything else that a homeowner is going to expect the systems to do together. The ask has been sent up the chain of command to get it removed from all marketing materials." But that still leaves installers holding the bag, as it was us at kitchen tables saying, "yes - this capability is coming." Without SolarEdge providing a formal release, it has in essence shifted its 'loss of goodwill' to us. I'm pretty fired up about it as it is one of many decisions where SolarEdge shifts costs back to the installers, to their benefit (consider the long queue for tech support and their response, "ok you have to be onsite for us to do something before we RMA it." Which would be fine if we were not forced to wait hour-plus for tech support. Would enjoy hearing what you are telling customers. Scot Arey Solar CenTex ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the other: https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/ http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org List rules & etiquette: http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm Check out or update participant bios: http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
