[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?

"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"

Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
in the inverter.

I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
rule it out as a source of the fault.



Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Maverick Brown via RE-wrenches]

I usually get the 08 GFDI error when I haven’t bonded neutral to ground 
downstream. (Typically because I booted up the inverter after DC connection but 
before any AC wires are landed.) That goes away once it is fully commissioned. 

I get the F23 - Tz_GFCI_OC_Fault If is related to the PV array, leakage or 
bonding. 

I do always run a properly sized ground wire from the array to the inverter 
ground. 

Thank you,

Maverick

Maverick Brown
Off-Grid Solar Commander since 2006
Maverick Solar Enterprises, Inc.
 • Solar Commander Remote Power
 • SunFlow Systems Cathodic Protection 
maver...@mavericksolar.com
512-460-9825



> On Jun 5, 2024, at 8:03 AM, Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> 
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
> 
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
> 
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
> grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
> connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
> It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the 
> inverter. 
> 
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from 
> the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am 
> getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side 
> with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to 
> ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule 
> it out as a source of the fault.
> 
> 
> 
> Jason Szumlanski 
> Florida Solar Design Group 
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jason,

You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar.  You
could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV

Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark itself)
between ground and neutral?  If not, this can cause this fault.

On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
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>
>

-- 



Mac Lewis

*"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches]

This is a partial backup scenario and the main service panel has a solid
neutral to ground bond. I have not been able to find anywhere else where
there is a bond, but there is always the chance that there is a neutral
wire in a switch box or outlet box somewhere in the house that is touching
an equipment ground or metallic enclosure.



On Wed, Jun 5, 2024, 9:53 AM Mac Lewis  wrote:

> Hi Jason,
>
> You should be able to land your PV EGC in the inverter ground bar.  You
> could do a quick resistance check to verify the +, - PV
>
> Is there a bond somewhere (upstream service panel or in the Sol-Ark
> itself) between ground and neutral?  If not, this can cause this fault.
>
> On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 7:03 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches <
> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:
>
>> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>>
>> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG
>> wire"
>>
>> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
>> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
>> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
>> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
>> in the inverter.
>>
>> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
>> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
>> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
>> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
>> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
>> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>>
>>
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>>
>> Pay optional member dues here: http://re-wrenches.org
>>
>> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
>>
>> Change listserver email address & settings:
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
>> There are two list archives for searching. When one doesn't work, try the
>> other:
>> https://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/
>> http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
>>
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>> http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
>>
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>> http://www.members.re-wrenches.org
>>
>>
>
> --
>
>
>
> Mac Lewis
>
> *"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates*
>
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[RE-wrenches] IRS Audit

[Hilton Dier, III via RE-wrenches]

I had to look into this once and it really isn't any more complex than the
statement. It's not about UL listing or whatever.

Does it generate electricity from solar?
Is it installed on or connected to an occupied residential home?

The restriction is that it has to be just the system itself. If you have to
replace the roofing material before installing, that roofing material is
not considered "qualified." Conduit in a trench to a ground mount is
qualified. Landscaping work to clean up after the trench is not.


Hilton Dier

Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
Renewable Energy Design
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[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

[Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches]

Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support?
Howie Michaelson
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

[Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches]

They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and partially 
depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users FB group after 
talking to tech support.
Best regards,
Lloyd

Get Outlook for iOS

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support?
Howie Michaelson
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

[david quattro via RE-wrenches]

Today they tried launching their monitoring migration from Inteless/PVPro
to Mysolark/solarkcloud.com
I had several sites throwing multiple bogus error codes and concerned
homeowners calling my staff all morning.
SolArk tech support probably drowning in that
Error codes::
F49  Backup_Battery_Fault
F51  Battery_TempHigh
F53  AC_B_InductCurr_DcHigh_Fault
F54  AC_C_InductCurr_DcHigh_Fault
F57  AC backfeed fault

On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 10:41 AM Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support?
> Howie Michaelson
> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

[Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches]

Hi Howie,

Text from FB user Scott Shadle Sol-Ark owners  Information network:

Migration update (edit at 10 am central...my plant is now populating the new 
solark app. So...hang in there)

Just had a very nice call with Sol Ark tech support.  He suggested that perhaps 
my Facebook update would help reduce the huge number of calls they are getting. 
  I took notes.  I don't work for Sol Ark.  I have no idea if any of the 
following is factual other than it is what the tech support person relayed to 
me.

1.  The migration has been challenging.  They are using a 3rd party entity to 
do the work.  The did a first test of 100 sites. A second test of 4,000 sites.  
At that point they did not have any material problems and attempted a full roll 
out of the remaining sites.  They had a lot (no definition of "a lot") of sites 
that had problems.  So, it is accurate that many of you are seeing the 
migration but a significant number of others (like me) are not getting 
information on either the old pv pro or the new mysolark.

2.  Why?  He said they believe it has to do with the wifi dongle.  I didn't try 
to get more specific.  Just said that the wifi dongle is not pointing at either 
site, so...like my situation...you are not able to see any information inside 
any of the apps...old or new.  Nor can you access your 15k to do any remote 
changes.  If you want to make changes you will have to go to the device.

3.  Fix and timing?  Unknown.  He asked that I be patient and give it a week, 
but hoped it would be resolved sooner.

4.  Is there any steps I the customer can take to make this better.  No.  It is 
all on their side.

5. Data migration.  He suggested that the data migration is still an open 
topic.  I expressed to him that in my emails with the PV Pro tech support they 
only allow for you to download one day at a time.oruse their reporting 
screens to get summarized information in graphical format (not the actual 
data).  He said the whole data migration topic is still being worked on by Sol 
Ark and they are reaching out to their installers and of course end user 
customers to try and layer in more and more functionality on the data reporting 
/ data harvesting side of things.  The suggestion...without any specifics...was 
that the new site will have much more functionality soonand...they can 
continue to improve it over time.  They did not have that ability with PV Pro.

6. Mobile app.  For those not aware, there is a new app (I'm on android and it 
was easy to download and put in my plant) mysolark.

He asked that we be patient.  Said tech support is getting swamped with calls 
and that they (tech support) can't really do anything to help until the 3rd 
party company fixes the migration issue(s).

Nice guy.  Reasonable responses.

Hopefully this will help some of you who are puzzled by fellow Facebook users 
on this board that are having no issues.

I'm going to give it a week.

Best regards

From: Lloyd Hoffstatter 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 2:07:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and partially 
depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users FB group after 
talking to tech support.
Best regards,
Lloyd

Get Outlook for iOS

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support?
Howie Michaelson
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

[Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches]

Optics was down again last weekend and I read this comment below from 
the Outback forum.


Day 11….without communication with our Sol Ark 15k inverter….Thanks 
Sol-Ark Solar


* Quote [4]

Post [5]  Mon Jun 03, 2024 4:07 pm

Who would have known? A conspiracy theorist that is right??? So it is no 
longer a conspiracy?  😉😎


Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
   [2]https://offgridsolar1.com/ [3]  [2]
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

On 2024-06-05 11:13 am, Lloyd Hoffstatter via RE-wrenches wrote:


Hi Howie,

Text from FB user Scott Shadle Sol-Ark owners  Information network:

Migration update (edit at 10 am central...my plant is now populating 
the new solark app. So...hang in there)


Just had a very nice call with Sol Ark tech support.  He suggested that 
perhaps my Facebook update would help reduce the huge number of calls 
they are getting.   I took notes.  I don't work for Sol Ark.  I have no 
idea if any of the following is factual other than it is what the tech 
support person relayed to me.


1.  The migration has been challenging.  They are using a 3rd party 
entity to do the work.  The did a first test of 100 sites. A second 
test of 4,000 sites.  At that point they did not have any material 
problems and attempted a full roll out of the remaining sites.  They 
had a lot (no definition of "a lot") of sites that had problems.  So, 
it is accurate that many of you are seeing the migration but a 
significant number of others (like me) are not getting information on 
either the old pv pro or the new mysolark.


2.  Why?  He said they believe it has to do with the wifi dongle.  I 
didn't try to get more specific.  Just said that the wifi dongle is not 
pointing at either site, so...like my situation...you are not able to 
see any information inside any of the apps...old or new.  Nor can you 
access your 15k to do any remote changes.  If you want to make changes 
you will have to go to the device.


3.  Fix and timing?  Unknown.  He asked that I be patient and give it a 
week, but hoped it would be resolved sooner.


4.  Is there any steps I the customer can take to make this better.  
No.  It is all on their side.


5. Data migration.  He suggested that the data migration is still an 
open topic.  I expressed to him that in my emails with the PV Pro tech 
support they only allow for you to download one day at a 
time.oruse their reporting screens to get summarized 
information in graphical format (not the actual data).  He said the 
whole data migration topic is still being worked on by Sol Ark and they 
are reaching out to their installers and of course end user customers 
to try and layer in more and more functionality on the data reporting / 
data harvesting side of things.  The suggestion...without any 
specifics...was that the new site will have much more functionality 
soonand...they can continue to improve it over time.  They did not 
have that ability with PV Pro.


6. Mobile app.  For those not aware, there is a new app (I'm on android 
and it was easy to download and put in my plant) mysolark.


He asked that we be patient.  Said tech support is getting swamped with 
calls and that they (tech support) can't really do anything to help 
until the 3rd party company fixes the migration issue(s).


Nice guy.  Reasonable responses.

Hopefully this will help some of you who are puzzled by fellow Facebook 
users on this board that are having no issues.

I'm going to give it a week.

Best regards
-

From: Lloyd Hoffstatter 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 2:07:43 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

They are swamped with calls while they work to transition, and 
partially depends on a third party per user comments on Sol-ark users 
FB group after talking to tech support.

Best regards,
Lloyd

Get Outlook for iOS [1]
-

From: RE-wrenches  on behalf 
of Howie Michaelson via RE-wrenches 

Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 1:41:07 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Howie Michaelson 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark Support

Is anyone else having trouble getting through to Sol-Ark support?

Howie Michaelson
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Links:
--
[1] https://aka.ms/o0ukef
[2] http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
[3] https://offgridsolar1.com/
[4] 
h

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[William Miller via RE-wrenches]

Friends:



On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
grounded PV conductor be?



History:



In the beginning, negative leads were always black.



When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).



When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative
was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.



Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly,
but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.



Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.



I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
either polarity.



This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing
the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is
functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the
GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.



Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?



Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!



Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the
negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback
CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.



Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
It can’t be that complicated!”



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





*From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
*Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
*Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding



Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?



"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"



Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
in the inverter.



I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
rule it out as a source of the fault.







Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches]

Arent you really working with an EGC though?This would make it bare or green 
insulated.-GlennSent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling 
errors.-- Original message--From: William Miller via RE-wrenchesDate: 
Wed, Jun 5, 2024 4:08 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: William Miller;Subject:Re: 
[RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame groundingFriends: On a related 
subject, I was researching the question: What color should my grounded PV 
conductor be?   History: In the beginning, negative leads were always black.   
When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the 
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3). When 
transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was 
floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable. Then the NEC recognized that 
some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but through some components, 
either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination.  A new term was created,
  functionally grounded.  This grounding was most often done to implement 
ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV 
equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, most often 
indirectly, or functionally. Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  
Therefore we are back to needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.  
 I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.  They 
have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I called 
Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.  They did 
not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment 
established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity. This 
distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the GFDI 
fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is functionally 
grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defea
 t the GFDI and
 may cause nuisance tripping. Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a 
functional ground bond? Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, 
who sells plenty of Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  
They said none of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they 
should be using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc 
can’t tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  
Frustrating! Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically 
says the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing 
Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire. 
Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?  It 
can’t be that complicated!” William Miller Miller Solar17395 Oak Road, 
Atascadero, CA 93422805-438-5600www.millersolar.comCA Lic. 773985  From: 
RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.or
 g] On Behalf Of Jason
 Szumlanski via RE-wrenchesSent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AMTo: 
RE-wrenchesCc: Jason SzumlanskiSubject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel 
frame grounding Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual? 
"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire" 
Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the 
inverter.  I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding 
conductor from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a 
home. I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the 
DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to 
ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it 
ou
 t as
 a source of the fault.   Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Bryan Norkunas via RE-wrenches]

White PV wire was something we used to sell often, but that demand has dropped 
off in the last 5 years or so and always wondered why.
Thanks for sharing William

Sunny Regards,
[Description: Description: PV-Cables_Logo_Transparent_Bkgnd_140x140]

Bryan Norkunas
PV-Cables Inc.
989 Milton Ave Ste 1D
Ferndale CA 95536
(707) 923-3000 office
www.pv-cables.com


 [cid:image002.jpg@01DA17CF.578FC540]  Please print only if necessary.

NOTE: This email message and any attachments are for the sole use of the 
intended recipient(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged 
information. Any unauthorized review, use, disclosure or distribution is 
prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by 
replying to this email, and destroy all copies of the original message.


From: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
William Miller via RE-wrenches 
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 12:53:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: William Miller 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding


Friends:



On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my 
grounded PV conductor be?



History:



In the beginning, negative leads were always black.



When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the 
requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).



When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the negative was 
floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.



Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not solidly, but 
through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a combination.  A 
new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This grounding was most often 
done to implement ground fault detection and interruption, or GFDI.  I always 
assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it had to feature a grounded polarity, 
most often indirectly, or functionally.



Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to needing 
grey/white, most often for the negative lead.



I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.  They 
have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I called 
Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.  They did 
not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if their equipment 
established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to either polarity.



This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is causing the 
GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV circuit is 
functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will defeat the 
GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.



Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?



Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of 
Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none of 
their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be using 
white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t tell me 
it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!



Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says the 
negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing Outback CCs 
you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.



Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?  It 
can’t be that complicated!”



William Miller



Miller Solar

17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422

805-438-5600

www.millersolar.com

CA Lic. 773985





From: RE-wrenches 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Cc: Jason Szumlanski
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding



Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?



"GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"



Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to the 
grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place to 
connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a difference? 
It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal in the inverter.



I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor from 
the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home. I am 
getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the DC side 
with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage to ground. 
But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to rule it out as a 
source of the fault.







Jason Szumlanski

Florida Solar Design Group
___
List spo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Brian Mehalic via RE-wrenches]

2020 NEC® identification requirements in 690.31(B)(2) state that "Only
solidly grounded PV system dc circuit conductors shall be marked in
accordance with 200.6." (200.6 is Means of Identifying Grounded Conductors")

If the circuit is nonsolidly grounded, then positive conductors can be
identified with +, POSITIVE, or POS if color coding is not being used; if
it is, they can be any color other than green white or gray. Nonsolidly
grounded negative conductors can be identified with -, NEGATIVE, or NEG if
color coding is not being used; if it is they can be any color other than
green, white, gray, or red.

Brian Mehalic
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional™ R031508-59
National Electrical Code® CMP-4 Member
(520) 204-6639

Solar Energy International
http://www.solarenergy.org



On Wed, Jun 5, 2024 at 2:08 PM William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
> grounded PV conductor be?
>
>
>
> History:
>
>
>
> In the beginning, negative leads were always black.
>
>
>
> When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
> requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).
>
>
>
> When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the
> negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.
>
>
>
> Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not
> solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
> combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
> grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
> interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
> had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.
>
>
>
> Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
> needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.
>
>
>
> I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
> They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
> called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
> They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
> their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
> either polarity.
>
>
>
> This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is
> causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV
> circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will
> defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?
>
>
>
> Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
> Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
> of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
> using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
> tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says
> the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing
> Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.
>
>
>
> Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
> It can’t be that complicated!”
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding
>
>
>
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
>
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
>
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
>
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter at a home.
> I am getting an F08 GFDI fault. The manual doesn't say anything about the
> DC side with respect to this error. It suggests it is an AC current leakage
> to ground. But Sol-Ark tech support suggested that I disconnect the PV to
> rule it out as a source of the fault.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Jason Szumlanski
>
> Florida Solar Design Group
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
>
> Pay optional member dues here: h

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[Eric Smiley via RE-wrenches]

SolArk arrays are ungrounded. However, because they are transformerless,
when the inverter is operating, there is a reference to ground on the DC
side via the AC side neutral bond to ground. So, a ground fault on the AC
side will also cause a GF error.

Many transformerless interactive inverters are using Isolation Resistance
testing to detect ground fault, rather than measuring current. Sol-Ark
doesn't have any literature to say what method of GF detection they use,
but it is unlikely there is a reference to ground via the GF detection
method.

In any case, they aren't solidly grounded, and none of the DC conductors
should be white or grey, they can both be hot with respect to ground.

Eric Smiley (he/him) - Design Manager

 250.703.6004
 e...@vecoop.ca
 888.386.0116
 3-4997 Polkey Rd, Duncan BC, V9L 6W3
 viridiansolar.ca




Viridian Solar honours the ancestral grounds on which we live and provide
services, recognising that these lands are unceded Indigenous territory. We
are steadfast in our commitment to reconciliation and acknowledge the rich
history and traditions that characterise this land that we all consider
home.



On Wed, 5 Jun 2024 at 13:07, William Miller via RE-wrenches <
re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote:

> Friends:
>
>
>
> On a related subject, I was researching the question: What color should my
> grounded PV conductor be?
>
>
>
> History:
>
>
>
> In the beginning, negative leads were always black.
>
>
>
> When it became apparent that negative PV leads were indeed grounded, the
> requirement to have them white or grey became enforced per 200.6(A)(3).
>
>
>
> When transformerless inverters were implemented it was assumed the
> negative was floating, so white/grey was no longer acceptable.
>
>
>
> Then the NEC recognized that some leads were kind of grounded, not
> solidly, but through some components, either OCPD, resistors, sensor or a
> combination.  A new term was created,  functionally grounded.  This
> grounding was most often done to implement ground fault detection and
> interruption, or GFDI.  I always assumed that if PV equipment had GFDI it
> had to feature a grounded polarity, most often indirectly, or functionally.
>
>
>
> Grounded conductors need to be white or grey.  Therefore we are back to
> needing grey/white, most often for the negative lead.
>
>
>
> I wanted to verify if the Sol-Arc PV inputs established a grounded lead.
> They have GFDI so I assumed it likely they did.  In order to verify, I
> called Sol-Arc.  Their tech support had no idea what I was talking about.
> They did not know the term functionally grounded and could not verify if
> their equipment established a ground connection, solid or otherwise, to
> either polarity.
>
>
>
> This distinction applies here because it may help determine what is
> causing the GFDI fault.  I can’t tell you for sure if one side of the PV
> circuit is functionally grounded, but if it is, grounding it elsewhere will
> defeat the GFDI and may cause nuisance tripping.
>
>
>
> Does anyone know if Sol-Arc PV inputs have a functional ground bond?
>
>
>
> Side note:  I called my local Greentech distributor, who sells plenty of
> Sol-Arc inverters and asked if they carried white PV wire.  They said none
> of their customers are asking for white PV wire.  I suspect they should be
> using white for negative leads.  I can’t confirm that because Sol-Arc can’t
> tell me it the PV circuits are functionally grounded or not.  Frustrating!
>
>
>
> Fortunately the manual for Outback charge controllers specifically says
> the negative lead is functionally grounded.  So if you are installing
> Outback CCs you must use white or grey.  PV-Cables sells white PV wire.
>
>
>
> Confusing?  Yeah, a bit.  But as my local roofing companies say:  “Solar?
> It can’t be that complicated!”
>
>
>
> William Miller
>
>
>
> Miller Solar
>
> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>
> 805-438-5600
>
> www.millersolar.com
>
> CA Lic. 773985
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] *On
> Behalf Of *Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 5, 2024 6:02 AM
> *To:* RE-wrenches
> *Cc:* Jason Szumlanski
> *Subject:* [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding
>
>
>
> Can anybody clarify the following instruction from the manual?
>
>
>
> "GND the panel MOUNTS/FRAMES to any GND outside the circuit via 12AWG wire"
>
>
>
> Does this mean do not connect the array equipment grounding conductor to
> the grounding terminal in the inverter? Where would be the suggested place
> to connect the equipment grounding conductor, and why does it make a
> difference? It would still be electrically bonded to the grounding terminal
> in the inverter.
>
>
>
> I'm asking because I do, in fact, have an equipment grounding conductor
> from the array connected to the ground terminal in the inverter 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Sol-Ark 15k solar panel frame grounding

[david quattro via RE-wrenches]

in their installation manuals, SolArk indicates black and red colors for PV
conductors.
___
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