Re: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark

[Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches]

William, I have had the same frustration with attempting to train customers to 
monitor voltage, and to treat SOC with suspicion. Some people are capable of 
getting it, some just aren’t. Off-grid life is tougher for those folks, and for 
their solar contractors. “I don’t understand why I lost power—the Trimetric 
says 75%!”  “Have you looked at at the voltage?”  “The what?”

Part of the problem is that we as consumers have been trained to believe the 
SOC numbers on our smart phones. I know I believe mine. We just got an electric 
car and same deal. Went on our first road trip, and of course had no choice but 
to manage charging based on the nice percent numbers on the screen. But in both 
cases, those devices seem to track battery state reasonably well. Too bad solar 
battery manus can’t do whatever Apple and Volkswagen et al can do.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701 
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 


"Serving the Solar System"





> On Feb 9, 2024, at 8:05 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> How does the lack of accuracy in SOC detection affect the usefulness of 
> closed loop systems?
> 
>  
> Drake Chamberlin
> 
> Athens Electric LLC
> 
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> 
> 
> On 2024-02-05 11:36, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote:
> 
>> Jason:
>>  
>> I am careful about getting my clients too dependent on SOC readings.  SOC is 
>> a calculated value based on changing variables and is notoriously inaccurate.
>>  
>> Below is a screenshot of the Optics reporting for a client.  The graph line 
>> that begins as the lower of the two is the SOC, the other is voltage.  The 
>> SOC is out of calibration until about noon when it jumps from about 20% to 
>> about 80%.  This does not mean the SOC changed by that amount, it means that 
>> it was just very wrong.  Who knows when it is correct?
>>  
>> In spite of repeated entreaties this client still reads the SOC and becomes 
>> concerned when it gets low-- even if the voltage level indicates the 
>> batteries are well charged.  I have to deal with his misplaced anxiety.
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> This problem appears to occur across all battery/inverter technology.  For 
>> example, SMA touts their "coulomb counting" as more accurate than others but 
>> I have witnessed otherwise.  You'd think that BMS units built by lithium 
>> manufacturers for their own products would be consistently accurate but even 
>> those BMS units need to recalibrate frequently, this according to the 
>> battery manufacturer's engineers.
>>  
>> It would be nice to offer clients a simple, accurate method of ascertaining 
>> battery charge levels.  SOC is not that method.  I train my clients to watch 
>> voltage levels and to understand these values are elastic.  If you can see 
>> trends in the battery voltage, so much the better. This is why I like the 
>> Outback Optics interface.  This is also why a good AGS system examines 
>> battery voltage over time.
>>  
>> I no longer install Outback FNDC units.  Without them there is no SOC 
>> reading.  I don't install Sunny Island systems—they are SOC centered and 
>> suffer for it.
>>  
>> William
>>  
>> Miller Solar
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422
>> 805-438-5600
>> www.millersolar.com <http://www.millersolar.com/>
>> CA Lic. 773985
>>  
>>  
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
>> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Jason 
>> Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
>> Sent: Sunday, February 4, 2024 7:30 AM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Cc: Jason Szumlanski
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] State of Charge Meter for Sol-Ark
>>  
>> Are there any off the shelf solutions to view battery SOC via a wired meter 
>> mounted remotely on a property? I have a client with a simple voltage based 
>> meter for lead acid batteries that they are accustomed to using as a quick 
>> and approximate gauge of SOC. They want something similar for their new 
>> Sol-Ark with EG4 LL batteries. 
>>  
>> They will have smartphone app visibility, but they want something they can 
>> see inside the house without picking up a phone or going out to the 
>> inverter. Ideally the SOC will come from the inverter or the battery itself, 
>> not an external source (to avoid discrepancies).
>>  
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group 
>> 
>> ___
>> List sponsored by Redwo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Hydraulic KO tool

[Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches]

A cheap one from Harbor Freight has worked well for us for occasional use.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701 
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 


"Serving the Solar System"





> On Dec 11, 2023, at 11:07 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
>  wrote:
> 
> Best thing is to buy a hydraulic set from Amazon or another online source. 
> I'm talking China-made, not the highest quality but cheap is what you're 
> looking for, especially if it's only being used once a year. I have a similar 
> set I've had for 6-7 years now and it's been fine.
> 
> On Mon, Dec 11, 2023 at 1:48 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> I’m wondering if anyone has recommendations for an inexpensive hydraulic KO 
> tool. 
> 
> I have a project where I need to punch some 4” holes in gutter. 
> I can’t get a jig saw or anything in there and a 4” hole saw bit is crazy 
> expensive. 
> 
> There are many inexpensive hydraulic tools out there that should work for a 
> holes. Just thought I’d check to see if anyone has any suggestions. 
> 
> Thx
> 
> Jay
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> 
> -- 
> Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh@vermont.solar <mailto:kirkh@vermont.solar>
> Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
> Celebrating our 33st Anniversary 1991-2024!!
> dba Vermont Solar Engineering
> 802.559.1225
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[RE-wrenches] Manufactured homes

[Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches]

Hi California guys,

We have a couple of leads that are manufactured homes, that have to be 
permitted through the CA Housing and Community Development office. The HCD 
wants roof engineering, and we are having trouble finding anyone local who will 
do this. Has anyone worked with an engineering firm anywhere in CA that is 
willing to deal with manufactured housing? (The builder of the houses has been 
no help other than providing non-stamped drawings.)

Thanks,
Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701 
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 


"Serving the Solar System"





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[RE-wrenches] Brand X equipment?

[Bruce Erickson via RE-wrenches]

Hello All,

I have a long time off-grid customer who is ready to upgrade his FX/L-16 
system, and I was suggesting Sol-Ark with Ampliphi closed loop. After getting 
my rough estimate, and being the due-diligence guy that he is, he asked around 
a bit. Someone who has “some” off-grid experience recommended equipment called 
EG4. It looks to have most of the features of a Sol-Ark plus offers server-rack 
Lithium batteries, all for about half the price. Looks like a cheap knock-off 
to me, and I said so, but promised to ask around. Anyone had any experience or 
know anything about these?

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701 
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 


"Serving the Solar System"

https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/ 
<https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-lifepower4-lithium-battery-48v-100ah/>


https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/ 
<https://signaturesolar.com/eg4-6-5k-off-grid-inverter-6500ex-48/>___
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[RE-wrenches] Plumbing/Mechanical Code for obstructions above plumbing vents

[Bruce Leininger via RE-wrenches]

Hello.  I'm wondering if there is a code reference for the allowable
clearance above a plumbing vent.  I've run into several jurisdictions that
ask for the clearance to be at least 2x the diameter of the vent pipe.  I'm
wondering if there are any code references to back this up or any code that
specifically prohibits obstructions (like solar panels) above plumbing
vents.

Thanks all!

Bruce
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Micro-hydro with L-ion

[Bruce Bosworth]

Unsubscribe 

Bruce Bosworth
San Diego Solar Install 619-600-8087.Your Friends in solar energy
 www.sandiegosolarinstall.com
(C-46 Solar Contractor) 


> On Sep 12, 2020, at 9:44 AM, frenergy  wrote:
> 
> Dearest off-gridders,
>  OK, many of you micro-hydro fanatics on the west coast are stuck 
> inside with all the smoke, time to put on your tin foil thinking caps
> 
> I brought this up some time back but got little (zero maybe) 
> feedback.  I'm hoping there are some other micro-hydro folks out there that 
> have figured out how to marry a Harris pelton, to a L-ion battery for 
> charging.  Outputs vary with rainfall/snow-melt from 3 amps to 28 amps (24V). 
>  Over the years with LA batteries, I've simply used a Trace C40 PWM CC 
> between the battery and mondo load resistors (two configurations due to 
> varying hydro output).  Of course sometimes the output and resistor load did 
> not match and I'd be sending 2,3, maybe 4 amps to the 1270 Ahr Battery which 
> at times was already floating.  This system is also fed with about 2800 watts 
> of PV, ala FM80 CC.
> 
> 
> This must not have hurt the battery too much as they are 17 years 
> old and still pretty happy.  However, L-ion is not going to be happy with 
> this configuration and would require some way to provide a perfect match of 
> hydro output to dump load when it reaches its full charge to insure its not 
> over-charged (AKA destroyed). Will a Classic deal with this?  Other ideas?  
> Experience is golden.
> 
> Bill
> 
> 
> Feather River Solar Electric
> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net
> 
> 
> -- 
> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas

[Bruce Erickson]

We’ve moved the whole thing using a pallet jack. Low center of gravity, nothing 
is hanging, no disassembly. But it assumes that the cases were placed on blocks 
originally so you can get the jack under them. Also helps if it's on a slab or 
a very sturdy wooden floor. We get them outside and hire a local firewood guy 
with a hoist on his truck to load them and take them away or transfer them to 
the recycler's truck. 


Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
 


"Serving the Solar System"





> On Jul 23, 2020, at 4:12 PM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
> 
> I have also seen automotive engine hoists reversed and with ballast, used to 
> grunt very heavy batteries.
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Jason 
> Szumlanski
> Sent: Thursday, July 23, 2020 6:22 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Two Dilemmas
>  
> Chain hoist and muscle for the move. It's not easy. It can be hard to get 
> them out of the steel case. Slow and careful... I haven't done this a lot, 
> but the few times it was a dicey proposition.
>  
> Jason Szumlanski
>  
>  
>  
> On Thu, Jul 23, 2020 at 5:47 PM Rick Brown 
>  <mailto:r...@solshineenergyalternatives.com>> wrote:
>> Wrenches,
>>  
>> Dilemma #1:
>>  
>> I’ve had to replace 4 sets of Solar One batteries (see pic). Each set weighs 
>> in excess of 1000lbs. How have you all transported these? The originals were 
>> placed into service prior to the room’s walls and roof going up. 
>>  
>> 
>>  
>> Dilemma #2:
>>  
>> The above system is comprised of a Trace SW5548 along with two Outback 
>> FM60s. After reprogramming the CCs and inverter with new charging 
>> parameters, I can’t get the Trace to export excess production once the 
>> batteries are charged. I do have the inverter set to “Sell” mode What am I 
>> missing? I have had little experience with the Trace line. 
>>  
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> rick brown
>> SolShine Energy Alternatives, LLC
>> Electrical & Solar Contracting Services
>> www.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com 
>> <https://mailtrack.io/trace/link/cd6490343ec8bea89108ca98f415d0f333006459?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.SolShineEnergyAlternatives.com=1613865=0f9b54a9d480>
>> Check, Virginia 24072
>> 540.808.9502 
>> 
>> VA Class A Contractor Lic# 2705147660
>> VA Master Electrician Lic# 2710062762
>> VA Alternative Energy Systems Installer  
>> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional 110112-21
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger

[bruce]

Check out Quickcharge out of Oklahoma. I have one of their 100 amp chargers working in tandem with some VFXs. Good folks.Bruce Fiero-RMI"Energizing the Rogue Valley"4115 S Pacific HwyMedford, OR 97501  P: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system.  


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Stand alone battery charger
From: Jason Szumlanski 
Date: Tue, April 21, 2020 9:32 am
To: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Cc: RE-wrenches 

I'm not sure I follow. I would disconnect the generator AC2 input from the existing quad XW system and move it to the external chargers. Or, I could just turn the charging off by software config in the XWs.If I were to buy four inverter/chargers to serve as "external" chargers for the battery (any brand, really) I would just connect the generator input to AC2 and the battery to the batt terminals of the four inverters. The AC1 input/output would have no connections. The inverter function would be turned off and the charger function turned on. Again, this would be an expensive solution. I'm sure there are some companies making high output DC chargers. I assume a 48V model will be able to go up to 60V charging output, which would be plenty for my 51V nominal system. On Tue, Apr 21, 2020 at 11:44 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  wrote:4 xw's need the external relay contactors not the internals, Right? You will destroy the internals relays. If there was warranty still left, and there is not on 6048, you would need to scrap them for parts. Xw logs welded relay warnings and faults for warranty on all xw's.  Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060  On Tue, 21 Apr 2020 08:27:53 -0400, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:I actually need 400Adc at 51V nominal of total charge rate. I was hoping to use 100Adc chargers for redundancy, or some combination of 2-8 chargers to reach the needed current, assuming they can be synced up. I don't think the charging algorithm needs to be complicated. We are basically bulk charging the LiPOs to 80% with the battery BMS controlling the generator. The concept is to get to 80% sometime in the night and solar kicks in during the day to reach 100% using 2-stage charging from the XW charge controllers.   The problem I have is the quad XW6048s in the system run at a pretty good load typically... often over 50%. This is off-grid with generator backup. The transfer switches in the XW6048 are causing surges and brownouts when the switched loads are high, especially smart dimmers and televisions. I need seamless power for this client. My thought is to abandon the internal chargers in the XW6048s and just run loads off inverter power full-time. I would charge the batteries with external battery chargers. The tricky part is how to adjust the charge rate based on load, and also based on solar input. I need to limit the net charging current. Of course, I still need 400Adc of charging current, which I'm learning might be hard to find. I don't really want to buy four more XWs - that's a pretty expensive solution.    Jason Szumlanski Florida Solar Design Group  On Fri, Apr 17, 2020 at 4:26 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  wrote:  I use the CSW 4048. It has a 50 amp charger. A good spare for clients. Get 2 of them. Repurpose an old Radian or XW well over 100A. XW+ is 140adc. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar  "we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060  On Fri, 17 Apr 2020 14:21:14 -0400, Jason Szumlanski  wrote:  I'm looking for a standalone 51V nominal battery charger suitable for a LiPO battery with 2-stage charging and adjustable setpoints for max current and battery voltage. It would require dual chargers with 100A capacity (I want dual chargers for redundancy so I have at least 50% capacity if one goes bad). Ideally they would sync up so they change stages simultaneously, but I'm not sure if that's really important.    Who makes something like that?   Jason Szumlanski    ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Bruce Leininger]

According to this article
<https://patch.com/california/suisuncity/garage-fire-caused-too-many-batteries-chargers-fire-dept>,
they were electric bike batteries.  So far, I haven't discovered any
reports from this country about fires associated with residential or
commercial energy storage systems, only utility scale
<https://www.tdworld.com/distributed-energy-resources/energy-storage/article/20973126/battery-energy-storage-are-all-the-bugs-out>.
Please feel free to share any additional information you might come across.

Thanks.

Bruce

On Thu, Apr 9, 2020 at 7:32 PM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> And another battery fire in Fairfield. I tried to find the type but they
> sound like type NMC lithium used in cars. Let me know if you find the type
> please.
>
>
> https://sanfrancisco.cbslocal.com/2019/06/08/fairfield-garage-fire-sends-5-first-responders-hospital/
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Thu, 9 Apr 2020 16:14:38 -0700, jay  wrote:
> > HI Bruce,
> >
> > There is a lithium fire in the last 2 years in Arizona (APS I think) on
> a
> > utility scale battery.
> >
> > jay
> > peltz power
> >
> >
> >
> >> On Apr 9, 2020, at 4:07 PM, Bruce Leininger 
> >> wrote:
> >>
> >> Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
> >> residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested
> >> in lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid
> >> fires as well.
> >>
> >> Thanks!
> >>
> >> Bruce
> >> ___
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[RE-wrenches] Known residential/commercial fires from LI batteries

[Bruce Leininger]

Hi.  I was wondering if there are any known instances of fires from
residential or commercial storage systems.  I'm specifically interested in
lithium ion batteries, but would welcome knowledge about lead acid fires as
well.

Thanks!

Bruce
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown for Ground Mounted Multimode (Battery) Inverters

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi, I am the wife of Bruce and I have to tell you that my beloved husband
had a fatal accident. Sylvia

On Fri, 14 Feb 2020 at 13:27, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar <
offgridso...@sti.net> wrote:

> Unfortunately Ray I have had 2 cases where the Local building inspector
> thought that it was a wildfire risk to not have RS, and yes on a ground
> mount. Too long to go into here but in the rurals where my clients are, it
> can be easier to comply.
>
> After about 4 phone calls it was easier to just do what he wanted and then
> make the change after inspection. Hope others do not have this issue.
>
>
>
> *Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar*
>
> *"we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ <http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/>
> e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
> text 209 813 0060*
>
> On Thu, 13 Feb 2020 15:07:52 -0700, Ray  wrote:
>
> Here's a page I put in my plan sets to make its clear for the AHJ.  I have
> not had this challenged, and we have never implemented Rapid Shutdown on a
> ground mounted array.
>
>
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 2/13/20 2:57 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>
> This points out the problem of inconsistent interpretation due in part to
> conflicting or unclear language. I always like to ask how many basements
> have protection around the NM conductors running through and along the
> rafters. I know several people on CMPs are on this listserv.  I am hoping
> that they can add some clear language, and not leave it to a footnote for
> implementing this aspect of the NEC.
> On 2/13/2020 4:42 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> It all comes down to where you install the PV disconnect.  We put it on
> the wall before the conductors enter the building or at the array,
> therefore 690 doesn't apply.  Proper signage is required indicating
> multiple power sources and listing the locations of their disconnects.
>
> Also, this isn't just my opinion, many others on the list have said this,
> including folks involved in the code writing process, and the code says
> this.  The fact that your inspector didn't catch the note on the figure is
> to be expected, as it is not out in flashing neon lights.  It is however a
> clear statement of where 690 stops: at the PV disconnect.
>
> Unfortunately, this is not further clarified in 2020 from what I can tell,
> so we will all continue to suffer inspectors incorrectly expecting 690.12
> on ground mounted systems.  I would politely ask your inspector to review
> that ruling with his higher ups.  We can't start setting precedents that
> are unreasonable and incorrect.  The array wiring is already required to be
> protected by either height, protective panels or fencing.
>
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 2/13/20 1:56 PM, Christopher Warfel wrote:
>
> Ray, I spent a bit of time today with a person who inspects for several
> state renewable energy programs and to summarize, this person said the
> opposite of what you said, and finish saying "seems pretty clear cut".  We
> did review three sections of 690, and one from 705.  I pointed out that
> these are not controlled conductors as I interpret them but they should
> have been defined.   I did not see any earlier posts regarding this, so I
> apologize for the redundancy.
> On 2/13/2020 3:16 PM, Ray wrote:
>
> This has been discussed to death in previous Wrench strings.  Just to cut
> to the chase:
>
> please review NEC 2017, Figure 690.1(b) Note:(2). *The PV system
> disconnect in these diagrams separates the PV system from all other
> systems.*
>
> The inverter, charge controller, batteries etc are no longer part of
> article 690, and are not subject to its requirements.  Look at articles
> 705, 706, and 480 for guidance for those *other systems*.
>
> *Ray Walters*
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
>
> On 2/13/20 12:55 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:
>
> Hi Chris,
>
> A few times and my back-up with a schneider system is their rapid
> shutdown. In the end the inspector comes around and realizes there is
> little gain for an offgrid ground mounted array for fireman. You do have to
> educate them and if they are insistent on being a bonehead, install the RS
> for the inspection and then use the box for the next one or sell it.
>
>  After almost 30 years offgrid the last thing I want is something that can
> fault out the solar or worse when I am away. Networks can be the enemy at
> times. Less is more offgrid in my opinion.
>
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Thu, 13 Feb 202

Re: [RE-wrenches] weird request

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Todd,

From my recollection changing the case might help but the logic 
will still hold it to 2kVA unless you change the control board as well.  The 
only reason I can think of for short fan life would be high temperatures 
requiring long and frequent fan run times.  Maybe someone has a display case 
unit you could get the vented top from?

Bruce Geddes

PowerOn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of toddc...@finestplanet.com
Sent: Thursday, 6 February 2020 6:35 a.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] weird request

 

i have a weird request... 

 

i have customer with a sealed GFX-2024 who has long complained about the 
internal fan's short (1.5 year) service life. i am thinking about changing this 
to a vented unit but would need to buy a different top half of the fx case... 
one with a hole for the fan's air intake and the exhaust air slots on the top 
and bottom between the case's fins.

 

outback does not sell just the top half of the FX/FXR case. do any wrenches 
have old junk inverters they would consider parting out the top half of the 
case?

if so, please contact me off list.

 

thanks,

 

todd




Sent from Finest Planet WebMail.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options

[bruce]

I've installed 1/2 dozen All Earth. Like them a lot. The only models available are 20) 72 cell or 24) 60 cell. We're fitting up to 7.9 kW on them now. They come only with their own mast and choice of poured base with anchor bolts or 5' post base with rebar in the bottom and bolt flange on top for the top mast. If I remember, 450 sf of silicon and 120 mph wind rating. They have a anemometer that tells it to table top at 30 mph wind. Have had no issues.Bruce Fiero-RMIP: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system.  


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options
From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Date: Wed, October 16, 2019 12:49 pm
To: 
Cc: RE-wrenches 

Hi Glen, I am looking for a design that can use 6" pipe. I can supply the pipe but the design needs to have the correct solar square footage for  6" pipe loading. Thanks for your help with this. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 14:59:19 -0400, "Glenn Burt"  wrote:   Hi Dave,   As far as I know, you don't supply the pipe, it is included with the unit, so no choice there.   -Glenn   From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid SolarSent: Wednesday, October 16, 2019 2:00 PMTo: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options   Hi Glen, I too have had issues getting info from All Earth. Do you know if they have any models on 6" pipe" Thx. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Wed, 16 Oct 2019 12:49:16 -0400, Glenn Burt  wrote:I live in VT, where they are manufactured, and have seen dozens of them installed across the state, as well as having inspected a number of them in New York State.    -Glenn   Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.       -- Original message--   From: ch...@oasismontana.com   Date: Wed, Oct 16, 2019 12:18 PM   To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org;   Cc:Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options     Dear people:  Well, I've found these folks:  https://www.allearthrenewables.com/the-allearth-solar-tracker  ...but after several inquiries and contacting a couple of their alleged dealers, I still cannot get any pricing or availability information, or even if this is a real product.  C'est la vie!   Best,   Chris Daum Oasis Montana Inc. 406-777-4309 or 4321 406-777-4309 fax www.oasismontana.com          From: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar > Sent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 3:55 PMTo: ch...@oasismontana.comSubject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options     Hi Chris, If you find something please let us know. You are right, the old  (no longer made) AZ 125 from Wattsun was the best. 2KW tracked on a 6 inch pole. Mix that in with a ground array and you have a really nice system. The AZ 225 is too heavy on the 8 inch pipe without a backhoe, especially on a hill. Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 15:47:24 -0600,  wrote:   Yes, I know what Wattsun has to offer, but some customers are looking for something MUCH smaller.  Thanks Dave!   --Chris @ the sunny Oasis MT   From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid SolarSent: Thursday, June 13, 2019 1:11 PMTo: RE-wrenches Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Residential tracker options   Have you looked at the Wattsun HZLA? No ladders and with the right module about 5KW tracked. Perfect for long hours of cooling or pumping. http://www.wattsun.com/products/accutrak-hzla-tracker Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar "we go where powerlines don't" http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net text 209 813 0060 On Thu, 13 Jun 2019 12:46:58 -0400, Dave Tedeyan  wrote:   Chris,    We have used AER for trackers. We've had good success with them.   

Re: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question

[Bruce Geddes]

The rubber button pad is available as a replacement part.  The carbon contacts 
degrade over time and cleaning does not always restore functionality.  Same 
with the buttons on the MX and FM controllers.

Bruce Geddes

PowerOn



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Sindelar Solar
Sent: Friday, 6 September 2019 3:01 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Old Outback Mate question



Wrenches,

I have a customer with a 2005-era Outback VFX3648-based off grid residential 
system. Her original Mate had lost response on several of the six buttons. I 
told her that the Mate is no longer made, and a Mate3 is larger (won't fit her 
space), expensive and overkill for her needs. I offered to attempt to repair 
hers, as it seemed to me that it would be a simple task. I removed the cover 
and the silicon button molding, and used a Q-tip with a bit of electronic 
cleaner and lubricant from Radio Shack to clean the contacts. When I put it 
back together none of the buttons made active contact.

- Any idea what I might have done wrong to cause further failure? I'm wondering 
if the cleaner included an oil that hindered conductivity, rather than enabled 
it, and whether trying again with denatured alcohol (or something more potent 
still?) might resolve the problem.

- Any suggestions about how to correct the (fairly common) problem of the 
buttons not making contact after years of service?

- Anyone repairing older Mates that you might pass on?

- Any way to buy a new or refurbished Mate?

Thank you for any help here.,

Allan

--



Allan Sindelar
 <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com> al...@sindelarsolar.com
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
505 780-2738 cell





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Re: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage

[bruce]

Customer designed/installed system to power domestic well pump. Seemed to work well for over a year. Unknown hp, but probably 3/4 or 1. Maybe starting current pulls voltage down below fault level? But now inverter will reset, but go immediately back to fault with no load. Fortunately he has a grid backup/transfer switch!Bruce Fiero 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage
From: Mac Lewis <maclew...@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, August 22, 2019 6:28 pm
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

What kind of load is on this system?  Any oddball loads that may strange power factor?On Thu, Aug 22, 2019 at 7:15 PM <br...@willpowerelect.com> wrote:Group,I'm not very familiar with Schneider equipment, but would like to understand fault code 00F1 on a CSW 4024.Low voltage output. Any remedy? Have reset several times but fault continues. Inverter only two years old.Tech support wouldn't take my call 'cause I'm not on their 'certified' list.Thanks!Bruce FieroP: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  -- Mac Lewis"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates ___
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[RE-wrenches] SW fault code low output voltage

[bruce]

Group,I'm not very familiar with Schneider equipment, but would like to understand fault code 00F1 on a CSW 4024.Low voltage output. Any remedy? Have reset several times but fault continues. Inverter only two years old.Tech support wouldn't take my call 'cause I'm not on their 'certified' list.Thanks!Bruce FieroP: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs  
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[RE-wrenches] spaghetti mat

[Bruce Erickson]

Does anyone have any experience to share about using spaghetti mat for 
protecting comp or other roofs? Safety? Maximum pitch, etc?
Or any other good roof protection techniques, now that we’re getting into hot 
weather season again.
Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail

[Bruce Erickson]

We use either SunPower InvisiMount or IronRidge with the CAMO hidden end clamp. 
Both need flush cuts to the module. In either case, we lay the last module in 
place and carefully scribe the cut line flush with the module, lift the module 
and cut with a Milwaukee bandsaw. If you cut before you place the last module, 
you can have full access for the cut even with a circular saw.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







> On Jun 13, 2019, at 6:46 AM, Dana  wrote:
> 
> We have had happy times with our [3] Milwaukee portable band saws both corded 
> & battery powered. Happily, cuts; Rail, Unistrut, EMT, PVC, MC, etc.  Call me 
> lazy but there is nothing like a portable band saw on site. 
>  
>  
>  
> Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 
> C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com 
> <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>
> Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
> NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.com 
> <http://www.solarwork.com/>
> "Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
> P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
>  
>  
> From: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>> On Behalf Of Jerry Shafer
> Sent: Wednesday, June 12, 2019 10:40 PM
> To: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Cutting rail
>  
> Porta band saw works great, Milwaukee has a nice one
> Jerry
>  
> On Wed, Jun 12, 2019, 6:32 PM frenergy  <mailto:frene...@psln.com>> wrote:
>> Any suggestions for cutting rail with a Sawzall?  Many times at the end 
>> of a run of PVs there could be 5-6" of rail (in this case DPW P8).  I 
>> like to use a circular saw but sometimes I don't have enough clearance 
>> once the rail and panels are installed.  The sawzall works but I'm 
>> looking for a blade that doesn't load up with aluminum too fast and cuts 
>> without too much vibration.  Other ideas?
>> 
>> Thanks,
>> 
>> Bill
>> 
>> Feather River Solar Electric
>> Bill Battagin, Owner
>> 4291 Nelson St.
>> Taylorsville, CA 95983
>> 530.284.7849
>> CA Lic 874049
>> www.frenergy.net <http://www.frenergy.net/>
>> 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch

[bruce]

Remember, on the FXRs, they plug into ports 1 and 7 (it's in the FXR manual) I always put the FNDC last if used.Remember, the 2nd Mate port is not used (I've seen that used and cause havoc as well).Always remember to reformat the SD card that you use for updates, and copy and paste each item to the card individually. Remember to eject card safely. Seem to be to many loose bytes floating around!My new rule of thumb: If your firmware is working, don't update. (if it ain't broke, don't fix it!) However, in your case, the Radian fw update may solve the problem. You may also consider plugging the Radian directly into the Mate for running the update.Bruce Fiero-RMI


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch
From: "Bruce Geddes" <bruce4po...@gmail.com>
Date: Wed, June 05, 2019 2:19 pm
To: "'RE-wrenches'" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

In my case it was definitely NOT a case of the wrong ports being used. From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Kienan MaxfieldSent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 5:25 a.m.To: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and it worked great after that.  Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors. Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, FX, Radian, FXR, etc.  Thanks,Kienan 801-631-5584On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:Bill: I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been running for some time.   I would hope equipment in this price range and this application does not need frequent rebooting.  WilliamOn Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy <frene...@psln.com> wrote:Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) shutdown and reboot.BillFeather River Solar Electric    Bill Battagin, Owner4291 Nelson St.Taylorsville, CA 95983530.284.7849CA Lic 874049www.frenergy.netOn 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote:Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system.  After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased.  Definitely some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices.Best of luck from down under.Bruce GeddesPowerOn  From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Mac LewisSent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m.To: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch William, We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on multi-stack fxr systems.  I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done with success:1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc.2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables.3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections. So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours.  Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this.   On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller <will...@millersolar.com> wrote:Friends:  As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian systems. The firmware has not been changed. I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit. Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings. Does anyone know w

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch

[Bruce Geddes]

In my case it was definitely NOT a case of the wrong ports being used.



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Kienan Maxfield
Sent: Thursday, 6 June 2019 5:25 a.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch



I have seen this problem and other similar problems many times. I saw one just 
last month that someone else was having trouble with. And with every single 
case that I’ve seen, the installer had accidentally neglected to ensure that 
the inverters are plugged into the correct ports. One of the Outback 
instruction manuals does say that the master inverter must be plugged into port 
one of the hub. In my own experience, if it’s not plugged into port one, all 
kinds of weird and strange problems arise. I would be only slightly surprised 
if Outback tech-support did not have you check that. I think that some of their 
techs don’t know the little details like that. On the Radian last month, I went 
over and switched the cables so that the Radian was plugged into port one, and 
it worked great after that.



Just to keep things organized, I always ensure to put the master inverter in 
Port 1, the second inverter (first slave) in Port 2, etc., then put all the 
charge controllers after that. I don’t understand it, I just know that this is 
a good way to prevent strange and frustrating errors.



Sometimes the ever occurs immediately, sometimes the error waits and happens 
after running a while. I have found this same issue with all Outback products, 
FX, Radian, FXR, etc.



Thanks,

Kienan

801-631-5584


On Jun 5, 2019, at 10:47 AM, William Miller  wrote:

Bill:



I am not sure how your point applies. This occurs on systems that have been 
running for some time.   I would hope equipment in this price range and this 
application does not need frequent rebooting.



William


On Jun 4, 2019, at 9:32 PM, frenergy  wrote:

Besides all the good info from Mac, there may be something to gain from 
following OB's sequence procedure for a proper complete system (all devices) 
shutdown and reboot.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net

On 6/4/2019 4:04 PM, Bruce Geddes wrote:

Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system.  
After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told 
me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already 
swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased.  Definitely 
some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices.

Best of luck from down under.

Bruce Geddes

PowerOn



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Mac Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch



William,



We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on 
multi-stack fxr systems.  I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To 
me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done 
with success:

1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc.

2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables.

3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections.



So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours.



Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this.







On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller  wrote:

Friends:

As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been 
occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian 
systems. The firmware has not been changed.

I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to 
receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit.

Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings.

Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it?

Thanks in advance.

William

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch

[Bruce Geddes]

Don’t know about Radian but I had this issue with a dual stack VFXR system.  
After five visits to site (3 hours drive one way) Tech support eventually told 
me there had been a bad batch of comms boards on FXR’s but I had already 
swapped inverters out for VFX’s at last visit and issue ceased.  Definitely 
some sort of comms glitch causing the Mate3 to loose info on devices.

Best of luck from down under.

Bruce Geddes

PowerOn



From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Mac Lewis
Sent: Tuesday, 4 June 2019 3:00 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback inverter firmware mismatch



William,



We have experienced this same issue on various Outback systems, mainly on 
multi-stack fxr systems.  I can't say I know or understand why this happens. To 
me, it makes sense that it's a communication error of some kind. What I've done 
with success:

1. Update all firmware, Mate, devices etc.

2. If a certain device (s) seems to have an issue, replace cables.

3. Apply terminal grease to all devices connections and Hub connections.



So far, this approach has worked, but will eat a lot of man hours.



Good luck, and please let us know if you find anything deeper out about this.







On Mon, Jun 3, 2019, 8:49 PM William Miller  wrote:

Friends:

As part of my ongoing love/hate relationship with Outback, I have been 
occasionally receiving “Inverter firmware mismatch” warnings on some Radian 
systems. The firmware has not been changed.

I was told it was bad data cables. I replaced all cables on one system only to 
receive more of the same warnings. Then, suddenly the error warnings quit.

Now today another system is experiencing the same warnings.

Does anyone know what this means and how to fix it?

Thanks in advance.

William

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFX 3648 tech support and parts

[Bruce Erickson]

I just bought a replacement VFX FET board from Photon Electric, at the 
recommendation of the Outback tech (cheaper than OB he said).
http://photonelectricllc.com <http://photonelectricllc.com/> 574-642-3731. 
They’re in Indiana.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







> On Apr 13, 2019, at 10:45 AM, Greg  wrote:
> 
> Friends,  
> I have a customer who's ready to upgrade to a larger system.  He has 6 - 
> VFX3648 inverters that are 10 years old.  They're only used in the summer 
> months but still going strong.  He needs to increase his system size to about 
> 28kW.  
> My understanding is that Outback no longer supports the old VFX inverters.  
> I'm wondering if anyone knows if we can still get parts?
>   
> I did see an email from Tump that mentioned someone who repairs boards but I 
> was wondering if I could get boards, maybe I could just install them in 
> any outback inverter and make it into a VFX 3648 (if it had the vent /fan 
> mount in it).
> 
> Next I'm wondering if the MATE ever died if I could either get a replacement 
> MATE or if a MATE 3 would be compatible?  Same question for the HUB10?
> 
> The VFXs are certainly proven technology.  Hate to replace them if I don't 
> have to.
> Thanks again,
>  
> Greg Egan
> Remote Power Inc.
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Legacy modules wanted

[bruce]

Hi All,Customer has had 4 modules stolen from legacy 5 kW system. I'm looking for new, used, or compatible to drop in to the holes. Mits MFE170EB4 24  volt, 31.5" x 62" x 46mm.Thanks!Bruce Fiero-RMI4115 S Pacific HwyMedford, OR 97501P: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs  
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Re: [RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen

[bruce]

Found some carbon on the BBus breaker and terms. Cleaned and tightened. Seemed to make the transfers seamless in manual start/stop, and got both inverters to read much closer to the same voltage without calibrating. We'll keep fingers crossed it works as well in auto stop after battery charge. Just goes to show all terminations should be checked every year. This system is about 12 years old and I just took it on a few months ago. Thanks for the input!Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen
From: "Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar" <offgridso...@sti.net>
Date: Sat, February 02, 2019 1:36 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Single inverter or master slave? Is there an AGS?

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

Dave bruce@willpowerelect.comDave
> Fellow Head Scratchers and
> Gurus,I have replaced VFX Control and AC boards
> on an older FP2 system in order to have current firmwares compatible with
> new Mate3s and FM100s. I am having frequent transfer delays/ outages of 30
> - 60 seconds from ags Aux off gen stop until inverter transfers and
> produces. I have double checked all settings and compared to several other
> similar systems settings. Any ideas?
> Thanks!
> style="font-family: verdana, geneva;" mce_style="font-family: verdana,
> geneva;">Bruce
> Fiero
> mce_style="font-family: verdana, geneva;">
> style="color: #355a8c;" mce_style="color:
> #355a8c;">
> style="font-family: times new roman, times; color: #425f9e;"
> mce_style="font-family: times new roman, times; color:
> #425f9e;">CCB
> 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor
> C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV)
> Installer 031409-38
> style="font-family: verdana, geneva;" mce_style="font-family: verdana,
> geneva;">
> style="font-family: times new roman, times;"
> mce_style="font-family: times new roman, times;">DUNS
> 191470363
> style="font-family: times new roman, times; color: #425f9e;"
> mce_style="font-family: times new roman, times; color:
> #425f9e;">Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV)
> Installation  Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs
> 
> mce_style="font-family: verdana, geneva;">
> mce_style="font-family: times new roman, times; color:
> #425f9e;">
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[RE-wrenches] VFX slow transfer from gen

[bruce]

Fellow Head Scratchers and Gurus,I have replaced VFX Control and AC boards on an older FP2 system in order to have current firmwares compatible with new Mate3s and FM100s. I am having frequent transfer delays/ outages of 30 - 60 seconds from ags Aux off gen stop until inverter transfers and produces. I have double checked all settings and compared to several other similar systems settings. Any ideas?  Thanks!Bruce FieroCCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   
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[RE-wrenches] VFX blinking error codes

[bruce]

Hi,Usually very successful with just replacing control and ac boards in older vfx to bring them up to compatibility with Mate 3 or 3s. When testing with 3 nine volt batteries, this one gives error code of ac and error blinking 3 times and batt low on 4th blink. Relay indicator also flashing, and vent fan does not come on. Ribbon cables are both new and well seated. Does anyone know what this code means? Thanks!Bruce Fiero-RMI"Energizing the Rogue Valley"___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi Marco,

I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and Pika options 
for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for myself, and found OB to 
be so much more expensive. The customer really wanted a system that would be to 
be able to charge the batteries off a generator in an outage, understandably. 
But the extra thousands in cost for OB ended up being prohibitive. Add-on rapid 
shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a nice modern high voltage DC system, 
with optimizers and built-in RSD, but when there’s an extended outage, he’ll 
have to hope the sun comes out right after the storm to recharge the batteries, 
or he’ll end up in the dark again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a 
high voltage inverter that allows generator charging, or a third-party battery 
charger, that I’m not aware of. Otherwise high voltage systems are very limited 
for backup, at least in winter storm scenarios.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







> On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf  wrote:
> 
> Aloha all,
>  
> At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is s 80s and 
> 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie applications with battery storage.
>  
> The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC is drawing 
> to close.  Enough already.  Thank you for your service.
>  
> The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC (Tesla, LG Chem, 
> BYD and others), the better.
>  
> marco
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
> <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>] On Behalf Of Peter Giroux
> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery 
> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>  
> Ken
>  
>   We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some 
> differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly, customer is 
> willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and you put the correct relays 
> in to shut off the string inverters if battery voltage gets to high, great.
>  
>   If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not check the 
> batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the power goes down then 
> not so cool. We have customers that power shave with it, have had backup 
> power for days until the power came back on as they monitored the loads and 
> were judicious about use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to 
> learn how to use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had 
> two do this, one learned the other not ).
>  
>   The Radians have been great work horses for this application, sadly as Ray 
> mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a primary solution. 
>  
> peter giroux
> ASAE
> Atlanta
>> - Original Message - 
>> From: Ken Schaal <mailto:k...@commonwealthsolar.com>
>> To: RE-wrenches <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> ; Ken Schaal 
>> <mailto:cwsol...@gmail.com>
>> Sent: Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
>> Subject: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding battery 
>> backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
>>  
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q 
>> <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer

[Bruce Geddes]

I would doubt that dimmers will work as they look for leading or trailing edges 
to power switch.  With Mod square waves there is just the sudden rise to full 
voltage so nothing to obtain a switching point.  It is for this reason some 
cordless device chargers struggle to charge.
Cheers,
Bruce Geddes
PowerOn


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of jay
Sent: Thursday, 6 September 2018 9:21 a.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] mod waveform LED dimmer

HI All,

I’m asking the group for a very obscure piece of information.

I have someone with an very old Trace 2012 mod wave form inverter and wants to 
use their new LED bulbs with a dimmer

Does anyone know of any LED/dimmer combos that will work?

thanks in advance

jay

peltz power


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Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs

[bruce]

NEC 690.47 (A) requires the array to be grounded, not necessarily the roof. If you have bonded the rails and modules and your grounding conductor goes back to the service you should be good. 690.47 (B) allows installation of an auxiliary grounding electrode (ground rod or building steel). Not a bad idea in lightning prone areas. ;) Local AHJ may have different opinions.Bruce Fiero-RMI"Energizing the Rogue Valley"4115 S Pacific HwyMedford, OR 97501P: 541.535.3965F: 541.512.0061E: br...@willpowerelect.comW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38DUNS 191470363 Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs   **This email may contain information that is privileged, confidential, or otherwise exempt from disclosure under applicable law. If you are not the addressee, or if it appears that you have received this email in error, please advise me immediately by reply email, keep the contents confidential, and immediately delete the message and any attachments from your system.  


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofs
From: "glenn.b...@glbcc.com" 
Date: Sun, June 17, 2018 6:17 pm
To: AE Solar 
Cc: RE-wrenches 

   Depends on the seam profile. Same device may be used in many cases. We have Also drilled and used the standard direct burial lugs on the underside of the pans, at the wave when they hang over enough to get working space. Then a horizontal run of copper wire to connect.Don't be lulled into thinking that S-5 clamps are listed for grounding roof pans - they are not. They are only listed for module bonding to ground.Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typos.-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 8:46 PMTo: glenn.b...@glbcc.com;Cc: RE-wrenches;Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofsthanks glenn. and what about commercial? anyone have code references regarding grounding when doing solar on metal roofs? i thought a few years back there was a conversation on this but i can't seem to find it.Adam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com(518) 567-1468 On Sun, Jun 17, 2018 at 1:46 PM, glenn.b...@glbcc.com  wrote:  We use the Ilsco SGB-4 ground lug on every pan under the array for residential systems.-GlennSent from my Verizon LG Smartphone-- Original message--From: AE SolarDate: Sun, Jun 17, 2018 12:29 PMTo: RE-wrenches;Cc: Subject:[RE-wrenches] grounding on metal roofswrenchers,what methods are you all using for grounding on metal roofs? thanksadamAdam KatzmanAutonomous EnergiesPO Box 1245Kingston, NY 12402www.autonomousenergies.com(518) 567-1468 ___
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[RE-wrenches] top of pole with no galvy

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi All,
I have a super particular customer who needs a small top-of-pole rack, but will 
not accept anything but aluminum or stainless (or bronze or titanium or . . ). 
No galvanized steel! Anyone have a lead on a rack manufacturer that has all 
aluminum pole tops, like Unirac used to make?
Thanks.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock

[bruce]

Aaron, Have you considered drilling into the rock and gluing anchor bolts or 'pinning the rock with rebar and building rebar cage and concrete on that? There are ways but engineering supervision is required. Good Luck!Bruce FieroW: Willpower Electric, LLC CCB 191852Oregon Electrical Contractor C681NABCEP Certified Solar (PV) Installer 031409-38Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally Solar (PV) Installation & Energy Efficient Commercial Lighting Programs    


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Mounting on rock
From: David Katz <dk...@backwoodssolar.com>
Date: Sat, April 14, 2018 8:26 am
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Aaron,I have seen large pole mounts in Portugal in an above ground ring of concrete 3 feet high and 6 feet in diameter. I would get an engineers opinion on the size but that would be easier than digging a hole in rock. David KatzOn Thu, Apr 12, 2018 at 6:27 AM Aaron Mandelkorn <reoso...@gmail.com> wrote:Hi all,I have a customer that requires a mounting option I have yet to encounter.  His site sits on top of of a massive hill of granite.  It is relatively flat.  Are there any mounting options that could work here?  We are only talking about (12) to (16) modules for an off grid array.  Is there anything that can bolt to rock?  I typically use dpw or Mt solar pole mounts but can't imagine how these options could work.  Any thoughts? Aaron MandelkornPresident / FounderRenewable Energy Outfitterswww.reosolar.comOff Grid Depotwww.offgridnow.com970-596-3744     ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search

[bruce]

Jay, we're trying out the Generac 15kw Ecogen inverter generator on our next project. It has two wire start built in  and saves some fuel, off grid warranty. Remember to plan for battery charging, either 120v or a solar charger at the generator as run does not charge the battery.Bruce FieroW: Willpower Electric, LLC  


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] generator search
From: Jerry Shafer 
Date: Tue, April 10, 2018 12:55 pm
To: RE-wrenches 

Jay we have used the Cummins machines and have been very happy,you will need a battery charger to maintain the SOC as the cpu has a 350 to 500 ma draw. JerryOn Mon, Apr 9, 2018, 10:15 AM David Katz  wrote:Check to see if it has a 120 vac requirement to float the battery. The 20 kw one I have has a big electrical drain David On Mon, Apr 9, 2018 at 11:50 AM jay  wrote:HI All,  I’ve got a new project wanting a 22-25kw single phase 120/240vac water cooled propane sound attenuated generator for an off grid situation.  I’m not going to be With AGS activation.  I”ve been looking at the Kohler 24 RCL ( meets all the above criteria) but I’m checking to see if I can get it to work with 2 wire AGS.  Onan also has one as well.  Are there any other make/models that people would recommend or would caution me against?  Thanks  jay  peltz power ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org  -- David Katz Sent from Gmail Mobile ___ List sponsored by Redwood Alliance  List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Change listserver email address & settings: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org  List-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html  List rules & etiquette: www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm  Check out or update participant bios: www.members.re-wrenches.org   ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Small genset 2 wire start?

[bruce]

   I used to use the 6kw ecogen but it has been disco'd and I can't
   justify the 15 kw. Checking out the HD Kohler 8kw and Onan QG3600.

   Thanks!

   Bruce



    Original Message 
   Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Small genset 2 wire start?
   From: Darryl Thayer <[1]darylsol...@gmail.com>
   Date: Thu, October 12, 2017 10:15 am
   To: RE-wrenches <[2]re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
   Maybe the Home Depot 8 kW Kohler would meet the ticket. It has 2 wire
   start, propane version, can be configured for 120 volt OR 120-240 volt
   output, has an optional "carb heater" run synthetic oil for cold
   weather
   starting. It is not rated Prime power, but for an off grid customer,
   with
   solar and batteries Prime power is not a consideration. It has a 12
   volt
   battery, that can be charged from a 24 to 12 converter or a 48 to 12 if
   one
   can be found. I set the 12 volt float voltage at 13.6 and the batteries
   seem to last for years. charging the battery supplies control and
   monitoring function.
   On Thu, Oct 12, 2017 at 12:01 PM, <[3]br...@willpowerelect.com> wrote:
   > Does anyone know of an electric / 2 wire start propane generator 7kw
   or
   > less? I have a LOL (little old lady) customer off grid for years on a
   > Trace 2512 and 6) T105s. We would like to give her auto start
   function
   > and use her propane supply. I haven't found anything but aftermarket
   > mods and would like to use factory equipment.
   >
   > Thanks
   >
   > Bruce Fiero
   >
   > E: [1][4]br...@willpowerelect.com
   >
   > W: [2]Willpower Electric, LLC
   >
   > Oregon Electrical Contractor C-681
   >
   > CCB 191852
   >
   > Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally
   >
   > Oregon Tax Credit Certified Technician Solar Electric
   >
   > NABCEP Certified PV Installer
   >
   > References
   >
   > Visible links
   > 1. [5]mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   > 2. [6]http://www.willpower-electric.com/
   >
   > Hidden links:
   > 4. [7]mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
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References

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   2. mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
   3. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   4. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   5. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   6. http://www.willpower-electric.com/
   7. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   8. mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
   9. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
  10. mailto://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re
  11. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
  12. http://www.members.re-wrenches.org/
  13. mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
  14. http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.org
  15. 
http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.html
  16. http://www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htm
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[RE-wrenches] Small genset 2 wire start?

[bruce]

   Does anyone know of an electric / 2 wire start propane generator 7kw or
   less?  I have a LOL (little old lady) customer off grid for years on a
   Trace 2512 and 6) T105s. We would like to give her auto start function
   and use her propane supply. I haven't found anything but aftermarket
   mods and would like to use factory equipment.

   Thanks

   Bruce Fiero

   E: [1]br...@willpowerelect.com

   W: [2]Willpower Electric, LLC

   Oregon Electrical Contractor C-681

   CCB 191852

   Energy Trust of Oregon Trade Ally

   Oregon Tax Credit Certified Technician Solar Electric

   NABCEP Certified PV Installer

References

   Visible links
   1. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
   2. http://www.willpower-electric.com/

   Hidden links:
   4. mailto:br...@willpowerelect.com
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[RE-wrenches] AFCI problems with SMA RSB

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi All,

I’m wondering if anyone else is having trouble with the SMA Rapid Shutdown Box. 
We have an installation where an SMA 7700TL-US-22 (rebranded as SunPower) is 
fed by an array with a Rapid Shutdown Box. Many, but not all, mornings, the 
inverter would fail the AFCI self-test on wakeup. When reset, it would operate 
fine all day. There was never an actual indication of an arc fault, just the 
self-test failure. SunPower, in consultation with SMA, decided to replace the 
inverter. Everything worked normally for a couple of weeks, then the problem 
resumed. Again, no arc-fault indication, just the self-test failure and then 
full operation the rest of the day after resetting. 

We began to suspect the Rapid Shutdown Box, so we bypassed it completely, and 
there were absolutely no problems for several weeks. SMA was then willing to 
replace the RSB, after which everything worked fine for about a week, then this 
morning the same issue. Again, self-test failure, then when reset, it has to go 
through another self-test, which it always passes and then runs all day.
Has anyone had problems with the RSB, or, with AFCI in general?

Based on this experience, this is the second and last RSB we’ve used, and have 
somewhat reluctantly gone to all micro inverters to meet rapid shutdown.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi All,

Although using a different version of the VFXR (3024E) I
have also had issues with a factory supplied FP2 system which is now
resolved.  Random shutdowns of the slave inverter which would indicate
"firmware versions different" and eventually lock up and revert to Boot Load
mode.  Required a firmware upload direct from the Mate to the inverter,
would not work via Hub!  I was told it was a firmware issue but later, from
a  different tech support, that it was a comms board issue which has now
been resolved with a  complete redesign of the board in question.  Total of
5x 6hour round trips to sort out!

 

My problem was fixed by retrofitting some VFX3024E's, fortunately an
off-grid system so no need for the grid capability.

 

Cheers,

Bruce Geddes

PowerOn

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Ray
Sent: Thursday, 4 May 2017 7:55 a.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback VFXR3648 failures

 

I had all kinds of trouble with the one and only VFXR system I did last
summer.  Every morning when the system would try to sell back, one inverter
would drop, which meant half the critical loads all got dropped too.
Considering the idea behind all the money for GTB is to keep those loads up
no matter what, we as an industry looked very bad.  A firmware update a
couple months later finally fixed the problem, but in the mean time I had
Outback Tech support trying to blame my wiring for the problems.

I had so many call backs due to this, along with Midnite "Rapid Shutdown"
issues, that I'm very hesitant to even take on anymore backup power systems.
I actually talk most people out of it right now.  If you already have 99+%
power availability, its going to be hard to improve that.  More likely, as
in our case, we are decreasing the up time not improving it, and the
customer is paying tens of thousands for that down grade. 

I'm just too honest to promote GTB right now, especially with Tesla's
disinformation campaign that makes people think they can backup their entire
house for any outage for $5k. I was doing backup systems before we were even
allowed to grid tie in the 90s, so I consider our current state of the art
to be in total disarray: 

shameful over promotion coupled with dangerous under performance.  

R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760

On 5/3/17 12:51 PM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Battery Wrenches, 

 

We designed a mobile power system with 6 Outback VFXR3648 inverters stacked
for 240 split phase. The battery system is a 20kWh lithium ion. So far, 2
FET boards have failed and the customer called today with another failure.
Outback said they had an early problem with these. I want to know if anyone
else is having issues with these and is the problem really fixed before I
quote another one.

 


Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103

 

 

 

 






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[RE-wrenches] off-grid in Africa

[Bruce Erickson]

We have a friend who works in Sierra Leone, West Africa, and has a grant for an 
off-grid project. Can anyone hook her up with a person or organization that 
knows the ropes about how to best provide workable system design and equipment 
sourcing in that environment? Please reply off-list.
Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi William, I have had a similar experience here in New Zealand on a FP2 fitted 
with VFXR3024E inverters.  Factory wired with a Mate3.  Ran ok for around 2 
months then random errors with “FX Firmware incompatible” then “FX Firmware OK” 
until eventually the slave inverter shut down with a message on the mate of 
FXRBL which means Boot Load, going back to very basic bootup mode.  It could 
only be corrected by doing a firmware upgrade which would not work via the Mate 
and Hub, had to plug Mate directly into inverter.  Reloaded system config from 
SD card file and all ok.

 

Now, after around 2 weeks, Mate display went blank except for border graphics.  
Supplier, suspecting a possibly faulty mate has sent a replacement and, when 
trying to load system configuration the file which I resaved on leaving last 
time has been scrambled.

 

Still waiting for a resolution but I suspect it is something to do with the 
VFXR’s or possibly the Mate.  Software bug or something.  Solution might be to 
replace VFXR’s with VFX’s but we will have to see what Outback come back with.  
Meantime I have a very irate customer with ½ of the system operating (Master 
inverter only).  System is nearly 3 hours travel one way so popping over to 
reset it when it is likely to randomly shut down again is not an option!  Still 
waiting to hear from Outback if they will cover this with warranty.

 

Bruce Geddes

Freedom Energy Ltd

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of William Miller
Sent: Friday, 11 November 2016 5:26 p.m.
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Programming Ghost

 

Ray:

 

I have no reason to believe anyone has been meddling. No one knows the 
password. It does look like some serious glitch. 

 

William


On Nov 10, 2016, at 6:25 PM, Ray Walters <r...@solarray.com> wrote:

It almost sounds like someone got in there and tried to reprogram stuff 
themselves.  Have you installed the proper anti-Gremlin devices?



R.Ray Walters
CTO, Solarray, Inc
Nabcep Certified PV Installer, 
Licensed Master Electrician
Solar Design Engineer
303 505-8760

On 11/10/2016 12:34 PM, William Miller wrote:

Colleagues: 

 

I maintain an off-grid, 8 stack FX Outback system with 3 charge controllers.  
The system has been on line for about 6 years.  It got upgraded about 7 months 
ago with 2 Mate3s.

 

About a week ago the system shutdown, leaving the customer without power.  A 
maintenance worker started a generator and power was restored.  I did not hear 
about the situation for several days.

 

A maintenance supervisor was dispatched yesterday to work with me over the 
telephone to see if we could restart the system.  The system would only run if 
the inverter output breakers were all off.  

 

I examined the system via Optics.  I was very surprised to see that the system 
programming was absolutely scrambled.  This was so much so that even the 
stacking settings were wrong.  For example, inverter 2 was set as a Master, 
which we all know will crash any system.  Other settings were also found with 
very random values.

 

This system was running prior to last Friday, so the stacking at least must 
have been right prior to the outage.  I am completely mystified as to how this 
could have happened.  

 

I am in conversation with Outback who is taking this seriously.  I have not 
heard back from them yet but I am curious if anyone else has experienced this 
or anything similar.  I'd like to broaden my knowledge on this situation to 
enhance my understanding and to share any findings with the group.

 

Thank you in advance for any input.

 

William Miller






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[RE-wrenches] Legacy SW175

[bruce]

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[RE-wrenches] S-5! mini vs 2 screw

[bruce]

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[RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App

[Bruce Leininger]

With the passage of AB2188 we were hoping that we could use a standard 
autofill permit application for all of the jurisdictions that we work 
in.  In reality our experience has been that each jurisdiction has 
adopted their own flavor of the streamlined permit app, so we need to 
continue using a different app for each one.


Have others found that they can use a single permit app for multiple 
jurisdictions?


Thanks.

Bruce

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[RE-wrenches] California AB2188 and Streamlined Permit App

[Bruce Leininger]

With the passage of AB2188 we were hoping that we could use a standard 
autofill permit application for all of the jurisdictions that we work 
in.  In reality our experience has been that each jurisdiction has 
adopted their own flavor of the streamlined permit app, so we need to 
continue using a different app for each one.


Have others found that they can use a single permit app for multiple 
jurisdictions?


Thanks.

Bruce
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Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger

[Bruce Geddes]

What about the Morningstar Relay Driver?  You could use one port as battery
voltage sense, another to control the gene start relay, third to sense
generator voltage and 4th to control AC relay via a timer to allow generator
warmup time.

 

Bruce Geddes

Technical Director

Freedom Energy Ltd

Description: freedomEnergy smallwww.freedomenergy.co.nz

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Chris Daum
Sent: Friday, 16 October 2015 12:51 p.m.
To: 'RE-wrenches'; i...@windsine.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger

 

Yes, but how do you integrate a sensor with an Iota?  And I don't think they
make a 30A (or higher would be fine, he's got a bigass generator) 48V
charger   I got ears, but I've never heard of such a thing.  It just
seems like a damn shame to buy a big inverter when I just need a decent
charger with an AGS module!  But I'm not technically inclined enough to rig
some voltage-sensitive relay, or the like.

 

--Chris @ the Oasis MT

 

 

  _  

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of b...@midnitesolar.com
Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:29 PM
To: i...@windsine.org; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger


We are not really advocating doing this.  It can cause nightmares in service
and support.

If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done)
but mere mortals should not
be attempting to do this.

I would get a real AC to DC charger.  If  IOTA isn't good enough, maybe
Magnum's is
ready or did I hear that the big  "X" has had one or two of these for quite
some time now ?

Power factor corrected even ?

boB


On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote:

The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to
around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop
generator based on battery voltage or SOC %.

Roy Rakobitsch
NABCEP Certified Small Wind InstallerR
NABCEP Certified Solar PV InstallerR
Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue
Wind/PV Design Engineer
Windsine LLC
631-514-4166
www.windsine.org

On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" <ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote:

Dear people:

 

I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but
trying to save the cost of a big inverter.  I have a customer who needs to
charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need
it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger)
will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the
batteries.  I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its
AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger.  Is this
doable?  Any ideas?

 

THANKS.

 

Chris Daum
Oasis Montana Inc.
406-777-4309
406-777-0830 fax
www.oasismontana.com 
  

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger

[Bruce Erickson]

Wouldn't the Atkinson GSCM generator start module do what you need? It can send 
start and stop signals based on voltage. I'm not sure if those are still being 
made.http://atkinsonelectronics.com/manufacturing/product_pdfs/GSCM.pdf

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since 1994







On Oct 15, 2015, at 4:51 PM, Chris Daum wrote:

> Yes, but how do you integrate a sensor with an Iota?  And I don't think they 
> make a 30A (or higher would be fine, he's got a bigass generator) 48V 
> charger   I got ears, but I've never heard of such a thing.  It just 
> seems like a damn shame to buy a big inverter when I just need a decent 
> charger with an AGS module!  But I'm not technically inclined enough to rig 
> some voltage-sensitive relay, or the like.
>  
> --Chris @ the Oasis MT
> 
> 
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of b...@midnitesolar.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 15, 2015 5:29 PM
> To: i...@windsine.org; RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] AGS sensitive battery charger
> 
> 
> We are not really advocating doing this.  It can cause nightmares in service 
> and support.
> 
> If one really knows what they are doing, it can be done (and has been done) 
> but mere mortals should not
> be attempting to do this.
> 
> I would get a real AC to DC charger.  If  IOTA isn't good enough, maybe 
> Magnum's is
> ready or did I hear that the big  "X" has had one or two of these for quite 
> some time now ?
> 
> Power factor corrected even ?
> 
> boB
> 
> 
> On 10/15/2015 4:20 PM, Roy Rakobitsch wrote:
>> The midnite classic 250 can do this fine. Rectify the generator 110vac to 
>> around 165vdc and feed into classic. Use Aux functions to start and stop 
>> generator based on battery voltage or SOC %.
>> 
>> Roy Rakobitsch
>> NABCEP Certified Small Wind Installer®
>> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer®
>> Certified Advanced Tower Climbing, Safety & Rescue
>> Wind/PV Design Engineer
>> Windsine LLC
>> 631-514-4166
>> www.windsine.org
>> 
>> On Oct 15, 2015 6:15 PM, "Chris Daum" <ch...@oasismontana.com> wrote:
>> Dear people:
>>  
>> I'm looking for an easy solution for battery charging off a generator, but 
>> trying to save the cost of a big inverter.  I have a customer who needs to 
>> charge a 48V battery bank with a 30A charger off of a generator--but I need 
>> it to sense when the battery voltage is low, so that the "device" (charger) 
>> will automatically turn on the (2-wire start) generator and charge the 
>> batteries.  I am trying to avoid the cost of, say, a Magnum 4448PAE with its 
>> AGS module, and just get a voltage sensitive battery charger.  Is this 
>> doable?  Any ideas?
>>  
>> THANKS.
>>  
>> Chris Daum
>> Oasis Montana Inc.
>> 406-777-4309
>> 406-777-0830 fax
>> www.oasismontana.com 
>>  
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Other list servers you may qualify for

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Michael,

I would like to join the wind list.

 

4. Home-Wind-Tech
This list is strictly for discussing technical and installation-business
subjects for the home wind industry. Private archives.

If you would like to participate in this wind list, just respond to me off
list with the following info:
Name:  Bruce Geddes
Email Address you wish to use for the wind list:  bruc...@ruralinzone.net
Company:  Freedom Energy Ltd
Your profession relative to small-wind:  specifier/supplier/installer
Your technical level in the industry: 20 years in RE including wind

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount?

[bruce]

Would this work for you?http://willpowerelectric.blogspot.com/p/h2e-is-harsh-to-extreme-solution.htmlBruce Fiero-RMIWillpower Electric LLC4115 S Pacific HwyMedford, OR 97501-9103  Phone: 541-535-3965Fax: 541-512-0061Email: br...@willpowerelect.comWeb: www.willpower-electric.comOregon Electrical Contractor C681CCB 191852DUNS 191470363NABCEP Certified PVTrade Ally of Energy Trust of OregonOregon Solar Tax Credit Certified Technician"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that."  T. Edison, 1931


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount?
From: "frenergy" frene...@psln.com
Date: Fri, January 16, 2015 9:17 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

   Lars,Yes, the only way you can even consider an install like this is a pole mount, with a steep tilt in the winter to shed most of the snow. It would help to know if the place will be used in the winter or summer and how big of an array in KW or Sq Ft. Customer would have to understand that you cannot guarantee it...there are some combinations of wind-snow-temp-moisture that make snow cling to anything. If this is permitted, start dropping off cookies to an engineer.  Bill Where the Sierra meets the Cascades  - Original Message -  From: Lars Ortegren  To: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  Sent: Thursday, January 15, 2015 11:30 AM Subject: [RE-wrenches] Extreme snow load ground mount?  Wrenches, I have a fun one for you. We have a couple of potential clients who live in the high Sierra with a 420 LB design snow load. After hunting around, not even a three rail system comes close with any module I can find, so now I'm looking for a pole top that will dump the snow, and still handle 120 mph winds. Any ideas? I would just say sorry, no solar for you,but like many of you I love a challenge. --Lars Örtegren/President  PO Box 480/149 E.Main StGrass Valley, CA 95945Phone : (530)274-3671 Fax: (530)274-7518California C-10ElectricalContractor #779624   ATTENTIONThis E-mail may contain CONFIDENTIAL INFORMATION intended only for the use of the Individual(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient of this E-mail, or the employee or agent responsible for delivering it to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination or copying this E-mail is strictly prohibited. If you have received this E-mail in error, please immediately notify us by telephone at(530)274-3671or E-mailla...@cal-solar.comor cont...@cal-solar.com. ___List sponsored by Redwood AllianceList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange listserver email address  settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://www.mail-archive.com/re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org/maillist.htmlList rules  etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out or update participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Load testing Lithium battery bank

[Bruce Erickson]

If a communication failure with a single cell (not even an actual fault) can 
cause total battery shutdown, does that lead to a lot of nuisance tripping?

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014





On Mar 18, 2015, at 8:57 AM, Larry wrote:

 Hi Jarmo,
 
 I agree and recognize your urgency in making us aware of the proper use and 
 charging of Li-ion batteries as well as the dangers of mistreating them. As 
 an early adopter myself, I am very cautious in my approach even to the point 
 of refusing to sell to some customers. Lithium battery technology is in a 
 state of rapid evolution. 
 
 Not wanting to harp on the GBS brand that I sell, but one of your points goes 
 to prove the safety of their integrated approach. You said, ...all it takes 
 is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on one cell. The GBS EMS system 
 has cell level sensors for temperature (and other data) and each sensor board 
 requires constant communication with the CPU. If the EMS fails to communicate 
 any information with any cell, the CPU immediately shuts down both safety 
 solenoids, disconnecting the battery. With the non integrated systems, 
 failures that don't report information to the management system could lead to 
 disaster.
 
 Please keep offering us the knowledge you are gaining as I am a firm believer 
 that Lithium technology is a large part of the inevitable replacement the 
 aged lead battery.
 Larry Crutcher
 Starlight Solar Power Systems
  
 On 3/17/15 6:11 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:
 Hi: 
 
 I may sound like I'm a detractor against using Lion, but that's not it. 
 
 What I want to bring to light is that, being as the technology is new, not 
 all the issues are known and there are things to learn for all early 
 adopters in the foreseeable future. 
 
 From what I can gather the framework for the issues lies in that Lion 
 technology is based on intercalation, that is, a reversible insertion and 
 removal of Li molecules into compounds with microscopically layered 
 structures.  This predicates that there must be no chemical reaction in the 
 battery, but rather only the shelving of the highly reactive Li ions.  If 
 there are any chemical reactions taking place, then in the least the battery 
 performance is compromised and in the most there is a thermal event or worse 
 
 There are some very robust Lion battery packs, a favorite of mine being from 
 a local company from Vancouver, (well Richmond, which is a suburb of 
 Vancouver).  It's a small company, but they have designed, developed, built 
 and successfully approved their 6 kWh Lion pack for use in large car ferries 
 in Scandinavia.  The ferries have stacks of these packs in the 100's, in the 
 MWh size.  It can be done. 
 
 What I'm advocating is that its best to work with companies that have the 
 time, interest and resources to work through the wrinkles, and if not, then 
 carefully put in reliable and precise BMS circuitry which includes things 
 like fail safe circuits for single point failures of critical sensing 
 circuits, the foremost of which is cell temperature.  When you're pushing 
 large currents, all it takes is one poor connection or broken temp sensor on 
 one cell.. 
 
 Here's a link to the Lion battery pack manufacturer, Corvus, 
 
 http://corvus-energy.com/ 
 
 I know they do a good job, but they're not cheap, for now... 
 
 JARMO 
 
 
 Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Xantrex Brand  |   CANADA  |   
 Sales Application Engineer 
 Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Tech Support: 800-670-0707  |   Mobile: 
 +604-505-0291 
 Email: jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: www.Xantrex.com  | 
   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 
 Mail Attachment.gif
 Mail Attachment.gifMail Attachment.gif   
 Mail Attachment.gif   Mail Attachment.gif
 
 
 
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] California wrenches PGE

[Bruce Erickson]

We've just started having problems with PGE and NEM applications for somewhat 
larger residential systems (12 kW). The NEM process is bass-ackwards in that 
you install and pay for the system, THEN apply for the interconnection. Never 
been a problem before, but with a recent 12 KW application, PGE said the 
transformer was too small. We had to get the customer to sign a letter that he 
would only operate 41 of the 44 modules installed (not that we can disconnect 3 
modules in a string system). That would allow the interconnection to go forward 
until the utility could upgrade the transformer at their expense, in a few 
months, and only because it was shared with another customer's service. If it 
had been a dedicated transformer to the customer, he would have been 
responsible for the cost of an upgrade. (Eventually the utility said never 
mind, operate the whole system.)

We had another 12 kW system coming up, and to be sure we didn't get into a 
deal-killing problem, I tried to find out in advance if the transformer was 
adequate. We did step one of the application (the Agreement and Customer 
Authorization form, which specifies CEC-AC rating and annual usage, but not 
specific equipment). Waited several weeks with no word, then with the job 
schedule approaching, tried several times to speak to someone. Finally got 
someone who said  it will probably work, but it needs to be reviewed by 
engineering, so we need to submit step 2 of the forms, which normally they 
won't accept unless it's accompanied by the finalled building permit. Catch 22. 
He said they would try to work around that.

I also asked how a transformer supplying a 200 amp service could not accept 49 
amps maximum backfeed, and was told just because it's feeding a 200 amp panel 
doesn't mean it's rated for 200 amps. The transformer is only sized to the 
projected load which could be smaller. I asked how backfeeding is considered 
load, and was told about possible problems with flicker factor. So, still 
waiting to see if I have to give my customer the choice of paying for a $10,000 
plus transformer upgrade or downsizing the system. Downsizing to what size? 
Seems like we would still need guidance on the transformer capacity.

This has NEVER been an issue before.


Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014





On Jan 16, 2015, at 9:38 PM, jay peltz wrote:

 I am just asking about any advice for the paperwork process above 30kW with 
 pge as I've never done one this large for a residence. 
 
 Customer has a standard 400 amp 240v single phase connection. 
 
 Thanks 
 
 Jay
 
 Peltz power 
 
 
 
 On Jan 16, 2015, at 5:25 PM, Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Well when you get that large the 3 phase makes a difference
 
 On Jan 16, 2015 5:23 PM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote:
 Friends:
 
  
 
 I would hesitate before offering three phase to a residential installation.  
 Well pumps, booster bumps and other appliance, if configured for 230 volts 
 do not operate well with 208 volts.  They may work but you reduce your 
 margin for voltage drop.
 
  
 
 William
 
  
 
  
 
 image003.jpg
 Lic 773985
 millersolar.com
 805-438-5600
 
  
 
 
 
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[RE-wrenches] Sunmodo Racking

[Bruce Leininger]

Does anyone have experience with Sunmodo racking?  I'd like to hear your 
experience both with the product and how long it took to receive it 
after ordering.


Thanks!

Bruce
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[RE-wrenches] Sunmodo racking

[Bruce Leininger]

Does anyone have experience with Sunmodo racking?  I'd like to hear your 
experience both with the product and how long it took to receive it 
after ordering.


Thanks!

Bruce
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents

[Bruce Leininger]

This is very helpful.  The combustion vents are of the inverted cone 
variety that you've described.  I'm still wondering if the building or 
mechanical codes would prohibit panels located 4 ft above plumbing, 
bathroom or non-combustion exhaust vents.


Regarding Benn's earlier question about minimum allowable height for 
plumbing vents, I believe that it's 6 as described in section 906.1 
here:  http://tinyurl.com/ll3fqt7


Bruce

On 9/24/2014 6:38 AM, Bill Loesch wrote:


Bruce, August, et al,

This is but one more example of confusing terminology. A plumbing vent 
is not an exhaust vent!


A plumbing vent (what August calls a cold vent) is provided to allow 
the sanitary drain traps (and perhaps more) to operate properly. 
Without the properly functioning traps you would have sewer gas smell 
and sewer gas from the plumbing fixtures. This was commonplace when 
indoor plumbing was introduced to early adopters.


An exhaust vent is another animal entirely. An exhaust vent carries 
the combustion products to a suitable exterior location for dilution 
with ambient air. With the advent of power vented combustion 
appliances, a direct vent (one that takes in combustion air from the 
outside and naturally exhausts combustion products to the outside) is 
IMHO the only responsible way to install any power vented appliance in 
a freezing climate. (Power vented appliances come in both condensing 
and non-condensing flavors-they can penetrate the side wall or the 
roof). Originally, two separate pipes (with two independent properly 
separated penetrations) was used. That technique is still often used 
today. More recently concentric vents have been introduced both for 
condensing and non-condensing applications. A concentric vent can 
simplify some installations by putting the exhaust pipe inside a 
larger air intake pipe allowing for one, albeit larger, penetration. 
As you might imagine if the exhaust flow is 
hindered/diverted/redirected by an inappropriately located solar 
module combustion gasses will be re-ingested into the intake air. Not 
good for equipment performance. My understanding is the power vented 
_appliance manufacturer_ dictates what kind of separation/clearances 
are needed with their product. My guess is you find they want at least 
a foot of separation between the top of the  inverted cone and the 
module. Probably not what you had in mind for an aesthetically 
pleasing installation.


I hope this helps,
Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094
On 23-Sep-14 6:54 PM, August Goers wrote:

Bruce and All,

Sorry, I hit send before I had a chance to complete my thoughts. What I
meant to say was that I've found AHJs often allow us to cover cold
plumbing vents but I've never tried or had any luck with covering hot
vents including condensing boiler PVC vents. Once again, if in doubt you
could see what the plan checker or inspector thinks.

Best,

August

-Original Message-
From: August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 4:15 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents

Bruce,

I'll send you the CA plumbing code vent section offlist (attachment too
large for this list). The way I read the code is that you technically
can't cover any type of plumbing or hot vent. However, and I've run into
little resistance from AHJs in the Bay Area by covering these. You might
want to check in with your plan checker.

Best,

August

Luminalt

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Bruce Leininger
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 3:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Modules over vents

Hi all.  We're designing a system on a roof that is literally infested
with plumbing, exhaust and combustion vents.  The combustion vents are PVC
and none of the vents are more than 1.5' above the roof.

A racking company says that we can cover them with modules, since the
modules will be at least 4' above the roof.  They have not yet provided
any building code references to say that this is ok.  Do any of you know
if the building code allows this?

Thanks.

Bruce
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[RE-wrenches] Modules over vents

[Bruce Leininger]

Hi all.  We're designing a system on a roof that is literally infested 
with plumbing, exhaust and combustion vents.  The combustion vents are 
PVC and none of the vents are more than 1.5' above the roof.


A racking company says that we can cover them with modules, since the 
modules will be at least 4' above the roof.  They have not yet provided 
any building code references to say that this is ok.  Do any of you know 
if the building code allows this?


Thanks.

Bruce
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar

[Bruce Erickson]

But how much of their production is Canadian? And is there a price premium, and 
if so, how much?

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014





On Jul 13, 2014, at 10:43 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

 Yes, in order to take advantage of Ontario’s FiT program….amongst other 
 reasons as well.
  
 http://www.canadiansolar.com/about_us.aspx?id=6
  
 http://www.greenenergyfutures.ca/episode/15/house-rising-sun-solar-manufacturing-canada
  
  
 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
 Behalf Of Kirk Herander
 Sent: Sunday, July 13, 2014 7:34 AM
 To: 'RE-wrenches'
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Canadian Solar
  
 Has Canadian Solar started manufacturing in Canada yet?
  
 Kirk Herander
 VT Solar, LLC
 Proven PV provider since 1991
 www.vermontsolarnow.com
 dba Vermont Solar Engineering
 NABCEPTM Inaugural Certificant
 VT RE Incentive Program Partner
 802.863.1202
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[RE-wrenches] GT with batteries in Calif.

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi Wrenches,

Here is the only info I've seen regarding NEM with batteries in California. 
It's a May 15 news post from CALSEIA, which Brad allowed me to post here.

One problem clearly is defining the categories, because what is a storage 
system larger than 10 kW? Seems like there's an h factor missing.

Even for category 1, internal metering devices could be a Mate3 for instance, 
but how can a Mate report directly to the utility?

This whole thing is a mess, IMO. I'm still curious, are any other California 
Wrenches dealing with utility NEM departments for systems with storage in the 
last few months, and what has been your experience?

  
 Official CALSEIA Membership Announcement Email not displaying correctly?
 View it in your browser.
 
 News Alert
  
 Dear CALSEIA Members,
 
 
 Earlier today, the California Public Utilities Commission voted to finalize 
 the decision on the interconnection of solar systems paired with energy 
 storage systems under net metering.
 
 First, and most importantly, the decision restores the ability of solar 
 systems paired with storage to qualify under the standard net metering 
 tariff. For the past year, utilities had refused to connect systems with 
 batteries under NEM.
 
 However, the decision includes new requirements. It effectively creates 
 three categories of systems.
 
 1. Storage systems smaller than 10 kW maximum output power can be paired 
 with any size solar system and do not have to install a second meter. The 
 associated solar systems will have to report system production to the 
 utility using internal metering devices to make sure NEM credits are only 
 going to solar output and not battery output.
 
 2. Storage systems larger than 10 kW with maximum power output less than 
 150% of solar system capacity will have to install a second meter at a cost 
 of up to $600 to make sure NEM credits are only going to solar output and 
 not battery output.
 
 3. Storage systems larger than 10 kW with maximum power output more than 
 150% of solar system capacity will be on the NEM-MT tariff rather than the 
 standard NEM tariff. In addition to the $600 meter, they will have to pay an 
 application fee of $800 and could potentially be subject to standby charges 
 and distribution system studies and upgrades. They will still get net 
 metering credits for electricity they put on the grid from the solar system.
 
 These limits are an improvement over the limits that were in the proposed 
 decision. The Commission did not include all of CALSEIA's recommendations, 
 but it included some significant movement in the right direction.
 The threshold between the categories above was changed from 100% to 150% of 
 the paired generator’s output power.
 A kWh storage limit of the storage system was eliminated (how many hours 
 worth of electricity can be stored).
 A de-rate formula that would have potentially reduced the value of NEM 
 credits was abandoned.
 Utilities must refund application fees that were illegally collected over 
 the past year.
 I would be happy to answer any questions you have with regard to how the 
 conditions in the decision would apply to specific system configurations.
 
 Thank you for your help in achieving this decision.
 
 
 Brad Heavner
 Policy Director, CALSEIA
 www.calseia.org
 Copyright © 2014 CALSEIA, All rights reserved. 

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014





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[RE-wrenches] GT with batteries in Calif.

[Bruce Erickson]

Recently the CPUC ruled that the utilities must continue to allow 
interconnection of net metered systems with batteries, but some stipulations 
were added. One is that systems with storage over 10 KW (which is not a 
storage metric) require an additional meter, ostensibly so that the utility can 
see that customers aren't buying off-peak and selling on-peak. I've been trying 
to find out for weeks what the specifics are on this meter requirement, what 
type of meter, where it would go in the system, etc. I haven't been able to get 
answers from PGE, Outback, or CALSEIA. Has anyone else run into this situation 
or gotten any answers? Is anyone doing battery systems?

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com

Celebrating 20 Years in Solar! 1994-2014





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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[bruce]

Steve,Good reminders and very practical. I realize that the core of my frustration was in attempting to get a full charge on a recently watered battery that had a huge capacity for charge current, with an undersized generator that was carrying running load plus the occasional chopsaws from other trades on the job. An impossible environment for making sensitive adjustments. More fine tuning to come...Bruce Fiero-RMIWillpower Electric LLC


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
From: Steve Higgins st...@surrette.com
Date: Tue, February 11, 2014 7:59 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

 Hey guys,

The FX's have always been rough to generator waveforms, back some 9-10 years ago there was a case in Alaska that identified that they (FX's) don't play well with capacitive coupled regulators.  We brought in several generators and the guys in engineering worked on a fix but never found one other than a $500.00 dollar tank circuit filter that most of the time didn't work.

At that point anything with a capacitive coupled regulator would have to be backed way off, and would cause a really nasty flicker of the Lights/loads when the inverter was charging the battery bank.

Electronically regulated regulators work better, but the way the inverter measures ac input amperage can also be way off.  I've seen the metering display 7 amps when indeed the actual current pull was closer to 10-11 amps.   This is most often the cause of the mystery breaker tripping.

One of the things I always did that worked pretty well was.

Turn the charge rates down to zero.
Start the Genset, wait till connection.
Edge the charge rates up 1 amp at a time to see how much the genset can handle.

I've usually found that at about 60-70% of the rated current is where the sweet spot is.

Another issue that I've seen come up affect multiple stacks of inverters regardless of their manufacture.  Most inverter/chargers in this market are Voltage Controlled chargers.  This means that current follows voltage, if voltage is low then current is high... once voltage get to say Absorb voltage the combination of the inverter seeing the absorb voltage and the battery no longer is accepting max current the amount of current flowing drastically drops.   This tends to drive customers/installers crazy on how to maximize the amount of current flowing into the battery.  Remember, once you get past the Bulk Charging stage you cannot force current into a battery, it's only going to accept what it can.

A secondary issue to this is when you have multiple chargers connected to the same battery bank. Very often if you have a quad stack of Outback's you will see on or two inverters charging while the rest of the inverters are sleeping, this is normal as nobody's products to my knowledge share charging information that will equally divide charging current between the sources.

Just something else to chew on Altitude will also affect how well the generator operates, as the higher you go the thinner the air the less efficiently the fuel burns.


Steve Higgins
Technical Services Manager
P: 800.681.9914
M: 206.790.5840
F: 902.597.8447
Surrette Battery Company

http://www.rollsbattery.com

Steve Higgins
Technical Services Manager
M: +1.206.790.5840
F: +1.902.597.8447
Surrette Battery Company
Exclusive manufacturer of


From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] on behalf of Doug Wells [dwe...@thesolarspecialists.com]
Sent: Tuesday, February 11, 2014 11:03 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

Kevin,

I am curious about what you are seeing on the Outbacks as well.
Have dozens of these out in the field.  They have been pretty reliable for me.
The biggest issue that I have had with them is when the inverters are transferring from generator charging back to inversion.
If you leave this at the factory default, 1 s, you will see light flicker, and sensitive electronics will go into error.
This transfer rate can be adjusted down and has cured most of the power quality issues with the battery charging.
A different issue than harmonics under load, but it might help.

Doug Wells
The Solar Specialists
Morrisville, VT 05661
(p) 802-223-7014
(c) 802-498-5856
www.thesolarspecialists.com



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[bruce]

Good Heads Up Dan! Thank you. Good excuse for me to get dialed in on a scope meter. I will make an analysis of the lines and submit my findings to Outback before installing the caps and potentially creating warranty issues...Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
From: Exeltech exelt...@yahoo.com
Date: Mon, February 10, 2014 9:37 pm
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Bruce,

The capacitors may or may not help, and could make things worse.  If you've already encountered and solved this exact issue on other identical systems .. carry on.

If not ... 

Switching power supplies have a double-whammy of being non-linear AND reactive.  The reactive component is almost always a capacitive "front end" in the power supply.  If the predominent issue happens to be harmonics .. then power-factor correction capacitors MAY help by filtering out some of the higher frequency aspects.  If the predominent issue is the reactive front end of the power supply .. caps could make the situation worse.

As a side-note, PF correction caps connected across the output of an inverter can cause the inverter's voltage control loop to go unstable, and blow the inverter.  Not a guaranteed failure .. but an enhanced possibility.


Dan


On Mon, 2/10/14, br...@willpowerelect.com br...@willpowerelect.com wrote:

 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
 To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Date: Monday, February 10, 2014, 10:43 PM
 
Matt,

I don't have a lot of experience with undersized generators for the application, but I will share some thoughts about my recent experience.
Having 3 VFX 3648 on a 12 kw Kohler, the math said I shouldn't have difficulty getting 7 kw total charge current which would put 135 amps into the battery.

My experience said the imbalanced load of 2 VFX on one leg and 1 on the other may cause problems. To address that issue I installed an autoformer.

The best compromise/solution so far is one VFX on each leg dialed back to 15 amps maximum charge current. This gives 3.6kw total charge current or about 70 amps ~52 volts. The third VFX (master) is programmed at 0 charge but maximum ac. It's only job is to invert or pass through. The two slaves don't have to worry about adjusting for loads, just charging.

Why can't we get more power? Switching power supplies in the chargers that create harmonics not readable by your standard amp meter, and that inherently, chargers seem to use only a portion of the sine wave presented to them. Harmonics of several orders induce current into the line and the windings of a generator. Some breakers are also susceptible.

In my case, a 70 amp breaker is tripping after a period of time with less than 8kw of charger. I have not yet scoped the line but I suspect the other 50-60% of load is harmonics.

Possible solution: I have found some power correction capacitors (600 Kvar @ 480, should give me 300 Kvar @ 240) that I'm going to put in a box and hang on the wall next to the VFX's. The VFX's will get scared and stop doing that! No, seriously, I'll wire the capacitor bank to the ac input busses of the FW 500 and they'll soak up a lot of the ripples that are trying to get back to the generator.
It may take a week or so to get back up there, but I'll let you know how it works.


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers

[bruce]

Matt,I don't have a lot of experience with undersized generators for the application, but I will share some thoughts about my recent experience.Having 3 VFX 3648 on a 12 kw Kohler, the math said I shouldn't have difficulty getting 7 kw total charge current which would put 135 amps into the battery.My experience said the imbalanced load of 2 VFX on one leg and 1 on the other may cause problems. To address that issue I installed an autoformer.The best compromise/solution so far is one VFX on each leg dialed back to 15 amps maximum charge current. This gives 3.6kw total charge current or about 70 amps ~52 volts. The third VFX (master) is programmed at 0 charge but maximum ac. It's only job is to invert or pass through. The two slaves don't have to worry about adjusting for loads, just charging.Why can't we get more power? Switching power supplies in the chargers that create harmonics not readable by your standard amp meter, and that inherently, chargers seem to use only a portion of the sine wave presented to them. Harmonics of several orders induce current into the line and the windings of a generator. Some breakers are also susceptible.In my case, a 70 amp breaker is tripping after a period of time with less than 8kw of charger. I have not yet scoped the line but I suspect the other 50-60% of load is harmonics.Possible solution: I have found some power correction capacitors (600 Kvar @ 480, should give me 300 Kvar @ 240) that I'm going to put in a box and hang on the wall next to the VFX's. The VFX's will get scared and stop doing that! No, seriously, I'll wire the capacitor bank to the ac input busses of the FW 500 and they'll soak up a lot of the ripples that are trying to get back to the generator.It may take a week or so to get back up there, but I'll let you know how it works.Bruce Fiero-RMIWillpower Electric LLC


 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback Chargers
From: m...@solar-energy-solutions.com
Date: Mon, February 10, 2014 4:09 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Wrenches,

Based on Kevin's comments about Outback Chargers in the HUP thread I am
hopeful that some of you well-versed in the off grid world can assist. 
Particularly I am curious if others can confirm deficiencies with Outback
chargers and suggest strategies for overcoming these deficiencies.

I currently have an off grid site with significant charging difficulty. 
The site has been online around eight years with a quad VFX3648 stack. 
Around six months ago the client began experiencing more generator issues
(he had certainly had occasional problems before but engine overruns
became almost a weekly occurrence which, considering the client is only
there on the weekends except during hunting season, is not good).  The
client decided to buy a new generator based on a comment from Outback.
They suggested his old 15 kW Briggs with mechanical governor should have
the governor replaced with an electronic governor.  This couldn't be done
so he bought a new GE 20 kW with electronic governor.  The GE does not
work with the Outback chargers at all (sounds like immediate overrun) but
will run the home just fine (and pass-thru Outback with chargers off).

I am about at the point of asking the client to buy Iotas.  However, we
have a Honda 6500 that has worked as a backup generator for this system
and that has worked for other Outback systems we have installed.  The
Honda no longer works well with this Outback system (routinely disconnects
after a few minutes charging and won't charge more than a few amps per
port).  Something has obviously changed for the Honda to no longer work
well and I am beginning to think that maybe I am missing something else. 
We have checked grounding and switched around inverters to run off dual
stacks without any noticeable difference.  The client has tried three
separate generators at this point and none work very well.  After eight
years the batteries aren't in great shape but they hold a charge and
should be capable of more years of service (Surrette YS).  Outback tech
support seems willing to listen and empathize but incapable of helping me
identify the issue.

Any advice is welcome.

Thanks,

Matt



Matthew Partymiller
Solar Energy Solutions LLC
(859) 312-7456
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com

 "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious
 about harmonics possibly being the culprit "

 Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for
 off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are
 the chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the
 charger circuit. Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would
 not run at all or reliably with gen running in charge mode.

 It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having to tear out several
 new outback systems  replace with another brand to keep customers happy.

 What we have done successfully for sites where the 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up! but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather.With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload.Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
From: "RE Ellison" reelli...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 am
To: "'RE-wrenches'" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Thanks Jay,We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.Glad you have a manual! It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!Later,Bob EllisonFrom: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltzSent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPHi guys,The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,jaypeltz powerOn Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.I have found that “on paper” and reality do not always mix well.Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem to “like” the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage charging we have with inverters, you’re not getting anywhere near enough to max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to run to keep up?Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator usage…..I can’t speak on the HUP’s. I have never used them, but might they be somewhat hard to charge?Just some thoughts, but it’s 3 am and I hope it makes sense in the morning when I reread it….Later,BobFrom:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Ofbr...@willpowerelect.comSent:Sunday, February 09, 2014 1:29 AMTo:RE-wrenchesSubject:Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPHi Larry,I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG. Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10 charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving me about 5.Bruce Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPFrom: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"la...@starlightsolar.comDate: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 amTo: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgHi Bruce,Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time getting to 100%.You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery.Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output.LarryOn Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM,br...@willpowerelect.comwrote:Hi All,3 VFX 36482 FM 806.5 kw solar12 kw generatorPSX 240 on generator output and VFX stackingMa

Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

True that on the DC genset, Kevin, but more or less removes the bypass option. Strongly considered breaker replacement as many are susceptible to harmonics, but a real PIA on this generator and haven't gotten around to it yet. Also going to run the gen shed ventilators off the line side of the gen when I replace the breaker to avoid overheating when breaker trips!Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
From: "Kevin Pegg" kp...@energyalternatives.ca
Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 9:39 am
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

 "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit "  Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are the chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the charger circuit.Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would not run at all or reliablywith gen running in charge mode.   It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having totear outseveral new outback systems replace with another brand to keep customers happy.   What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only. Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client buys hardware and says "make it all work". ADC genset would be way more efficient.   Another thought have youtried anotherbreaker on the gen? Weak breakers do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.   Kevin  -Original Message-From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of br...@willpowerelect.comSent: February 9, 2014 9:28 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up! but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather. With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload. Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...  Bruce    Original Message Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPFrom: "RE Ellison" reelli...@gmail.comDate: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 amTo: "'RE-wrenches'" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org   Thanks Jay, We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.  Glad you have a manual!  It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!  Later, Bob Ellison  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltzSent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP  Hi guys,The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272,jay  peltz power   On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote:Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.  I have found that “on paper” and reality do not always mix well.  Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem to “like” the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage charging we have with inverters, you’re not getting anywhere near enough to max them with that generator. Powering down all the chargers 30% or so (or 1 inverter totally) would help stop the breaker trips but slow the charging off the generator. Then you just need to pray for lots of sun.  Is the solar alone enough to power the loads in the normal day to day usage in a best case situation, or is this a case of the generator has to run to keep up?Up here we have seen 1 sunny day in 3 weeks, we know about generator usage…..I can’t speak on the HUP’s. I have never used them, but might they be somewhat hard to charge?Just some thoughts, but it’s

Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

Yes Chris. I've got about 42 on one leg and 35-37 on the other. The transformer keeps the legs balanced to within about 5 amps.Bruce


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
From: Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 11:13 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

So the breaker is not the generator output breaker?I would put a clamp amp meter on the breaker leads set on Max to record the maximum current when it trips. On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:23 PM, br...@willpowerelect.com wrote: True that on the DC genset, Kevin, but more or less removes the bypass option. Strongly considered breaker replacement as many are susceptible to harmonics, but a real PIA on this generator and haven't gotten around to it yet. Also going to run the gen shed ventilators off the line side of the gen when I replace the breaker to avoid overheating when breaker trips! Bruce Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP From: "Kevin Pegg" kp...@energyalternatives.ca Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 9:39 am To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit "  Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are the chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the charger circuit.Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would not run at all or reliablywith gen running in charge mode.   It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having totear outseveral new outback systems replace with another brand to keep customers happy.   What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only. Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client buys hardware and says "make it all work". ADC genset would be way more efficient.   Another thought have youtried anotherbreaker on the gen? Weak breakers do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.   Kevin  -Original Message-From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of br...@willpowerelect.com Sent: February 9, 2014 9:28 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up! but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather. With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload. Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...   Bruce    Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPFrom: "RE Ellison" reelli...@gmail.comDate: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 amTo: "'RE-wrenches'" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org   Thanks Jay, We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.  Glad you have a manual!  It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!  Later, Bob Ellison   From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP  Hi guys,The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272, jay   peltz power   On Feb 9, 2014, at 1:38 AM, RE Ellison wrote: Sounds like there is a need for a bigger generator, my gut tells me there is almost enough (but not quite), with 12kw to almost max the chargers and nothing left to feed the other loads.   I have found that “on paper” and reality do not always mix well.   Getting max theoretical charging capacity from solar and the generator at the same time is sometimes a tough nut to crack, although batteries seem to “like” the varying charge better than a steady max charge. That battery can probably absorb 420 amps as the charging max using the usual 3 stage charging we have with inverters, you’re not getting anywhere near enough to max them with th

Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

We dialed the inverters back to 3.6 kw charge and got a full bulk and EQ with no breaker trip today. Finally got the SG back up to 1.275 - 1.285 after 4 hours @ 61.5. It had me real nervous for a week, being able to get bulk voltage but still only 1.220 - 1.223 SG. Now looking at putting in a capacitor bank to correct some of the power factor issues of the inverter/chargers so I can get more useable kw out of the genset.Thanks for your suggestions!Bruce Fiero-RMIWillpower Electric LLC


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
From: br...@willpowerelect.com
Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 12:04 pm
To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Yes Chris. I've got about 42 on one leg and 35-37 on the other. The transformer keeps the legs balanced to within about 5 amps.Bruce    Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP From: Chris Mason cometenergysyst...@gmail.com Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 11:13 am To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  So the breaker is not the generator output breaker?I would put a clamp amp meter on the breaker leads set on Max to record the maximum current when it trips. On Sun, Feb 9, 2014 at 2:23 PM, br...@willpowerelect.com wrote: True that on the DC genset, Kevin, but more or less removes the bypass option. Strongly considered breaker replacement as many are susceptible to harmonics, but a real PIA on this generator and haven't gotten around to it yet. Also going to run the gen shed ventilators off the line side of the gen when I replace the breaker to avoid overheating when breaker trips! Bruce Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP From: "Kevin Pegg" kp...@energyalternatives.ca Date: Sun, February 09, 2014 9:39 am To: "RE-wrenches" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org  "Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit "  Yes, it's pretty nasty. This is why we stopped using Outback products for off-grid sites with significant use of generator charging. Not only are the chargers really wimpy, we found all manner of harmonics caused by the charger circuit.Loads ran fine on inverter; fine on generator but would not run at all or reliablywith gen running in charge mode.   It took some time to figure this out. Ended up having totear outseveral new outback systems replace with another brand to keep customers happy.   What we have done successfully for sites where the customer doesn't want to replace the Outback is install a bank of external battery chargers, ie the Iota DLS series and use those for gen charging purposes only. Sub-optimal in a lot of respects but that's what happens when a client buys hardware and says "make it all work". ADC genset would be way more efficient.   Another thought have youtried anotherbreaker on the gen? Weak breakers do happen, have seen that on brand new gensets.   Kevin  -Original Message-From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org]On Behalf Of br...@willpowerelect.com Sent: February 9, 2014 9:28 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP Roger the 136-272 charge amps, and the theoretical max of 295 with this system. Hoping for reality of 160 - 200. Fortunately it's a 'good' customer with very efficient running loads, just a bit of a power tool habit and the hydronic heating recirc pump loads. Unfortunately, there have been 3 trades on site recently using power while I'm trying to get the battery filled up! but generally about 3x solar/useage during fair weather. With 3 inverters, this week I'm trying #3 with full charging, 1 and 2 at about 60%. #1 should carry most of the load demands, #3 most of the charge demand. I also found a spot in the Mate 3 to set maximum charging kw and I set that to 7kw. Maybe that will help gen overload. Has anybody scoped ac line to VFX's under full charge load? I'm curious about harmonics possibly being the culprit between a 12.3 kw load bank not tripping the breaker, and a 5-6 kw charging load tripping the breaker...   Bruce    Original Message  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUPFrom: "RE Ellison" reelli...@gmail.comDate: Sun, February 09, 2014 8:07 amTo: "'RE-wrenches'" re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org   Thanks Jay, We used to be able to figure the max charge rate at 25% of the packs capacity. That might not work with the HUP packs.  Glad you have a manual!  It is always a good idea to follow the directions in the manuals!  Later, Bob Ellison   From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of jay peltz Sent: Sunday, February 09, 2014 9:38 AMTo: RE-wrenchesSubject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP  Hi guys,The HUP manual specifies minimum charge rate of 136 amps, max at 272, jay   peltz

Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

Hi Larry,I have an FNDC in the system. Manufacturer wanted 2 hour EQ before adding water to the new battery. We got that and had SG between 1.260 and 1.275 on all 24 cells. Cells were very thirsty (shipped with electrolyte almost to the plates) and took 8.5 gallons between all cells. We aren't having much trouble getting voltage back up but SG is below 1.23 (within .01 on cells tested). Strategy at this point is to give a daily bulk and absorb and EQ every 3 or 4 days for extended times and monitor SG. Discontinue hard charging when SG plateaus. I generally shoot for c/10 charge current, and nervous about barely c/20 and a 12kw genset only giving me about 5.Bruce 


 Original Message 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP
From: "Larry Crutcher, Starlight Solar Power Systems"
la...@starlightsolar.com
Date: Sat, February 08, 2014 11:50 am
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hi Bruce,Please explain "feeding it properly". Charging any lead acid battery slowly actually preserves battery life. As long as you are achieving the recommended charge voltage (temperature compensated) for long enough time, and reaching 100% SoC regularly, you are caring for the battery.At 82kWh battery capacity and 6.5kW PV, the customer may have a hard time getting to 100%.You did not mention, but I HOPE you have a battery capacity meter in the system. It's mandatory if they want to care for the battery.Since the customer has a small generator, they need to realize the limitations and reduce their loads during generator time so you can use the full output.Larry On Feb 7, 2014, at 11:46 PM, br...@willpowerelect.com wrote:Hi All,3 VFX 36482 FM 806.5 kw solar12 kw generatorPSX 240 on generator output and VFX stackingMate 3HUP 1690 ahSystem design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw) Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip.I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is off.I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not soAny suggestions?Thanks!Bruce Fiero-RMIsigimg0.jpeg"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that." T. Edison, 1931___List sponsored by Home Power magazineList Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.orgChange email address  settings:http://lists.re-wrenches.org/options.cgi/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList-Archive: http://lists.re-wrenches.org/pipermail/re-wrenches-re-wrenches.orgList rules  etiquette:www.re-wrenches.org/etiquette.htmCheck out participant bios:www.members.re-wrenches.org___
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[RE-wrenches] Charging a HUP

[bruce]

Hi All,3 VFX 36482 FM 806.5 kw solar12 kw generatorPSX 240 on generator output and VFX stackingMate 3HUP 1690 ahSystem design considering 45 amp charge current from each VFX totaling 135 amps. (135 x ~55v = 7.42kw) Potential charge current from 2 arrays and FM 80's, 90 - 100 amps. On a good day, reasonable to expect 200+ amps?Have not been able to exceed 90 amps for more than 30 minutes, with the generator putting out about 9 kw before it's 70 amp 2pole breaker trips. L1 42 amps, L2 37 amps. 5 amps neutral. Load banked to 12.3 kw (51 amps @ 240v) resistive without breaker trip.I have had to dial back the maximum charge current in the Mate 3 to 12 amps each on two of the inverters (L1 and L2) and 8 on inverter 3 to keep the generator from tripping out when customer turns on the microwave or coffee pot. In effect, 42 amps charge @ 240 v = 7.6 kw. At the battery, I'm only seeing 80 amps of charge current. Running loads are typically less than 1 kw but there has been a of construction going on with chop saws and compressors creating annoying spikes that are easily handled by the inverters when the generator is off.I don't want to kill this new battery by not feeding it properly! I would have put in a larger generator, but the owner bought the 12 kw before deciding on the new battery. I thought the 12 would be merely adequate, but not soAny suggestions?Thanks!Bruce Fiero-RMI"I'd put my money on the sun and solar energy. What a source of power! I hope we don't have to wait until oil and coal run out before we tackle that."  T. Edison, 1931___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi All,

As a followup to Phil's good news from October 18, has anyone had issues with 
utilities on approving GTBB? 
We're in PGE, and they seem to be stonewalling an NEM application we submitted 
2 months ago. It's a normal Radian GTBB setup. They asked for additional 
information twice, which we gave them (they said the Radian wasn't on their 
approved equipt list, which it was, and asked for clarification on module model 
number). Weeks have gone by with no further communication.

Has anyone had PGE approval for GTBB recently?
Any other developments with this issue?

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com




On Oct 18, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Phil Undercuffler wrote:

 Great news, everyone -- the assigned commissioner ruling (ACR) for battery 
 based NEM eligibility has been released last night, and it looks very 
 positive.  The ACR would give storage devices meeting the Guidebook 
 requirements the same benefits available to renewable generating facilities 
 under NEM tariffs for two years, and systems would be exempt from standby 
 charges, interconnection application and review fees or upgrade charges, 
 similar to any other grid-tie PV system.  This sends a very clear message to 
 the utilities that they need to stop obstructing RE and grid tie with battery 
 backup using energy storage.
 
 Ruling filed by CMMR/PEEVEY/CPUC on 10/17/2013 Conf# 68783 
 http://docs.cpuc.ca.gov/PublishedDocs/Efile/G000/M078/K591/78591800.PDF
 
 Per the ACR, these exemptions would apply to any storage device connected 
 behind the same billing meter as the NEM generating system because this 
 configuration meets the conditions of the “directly connected energy storage” 
 category as described in the Guidebook.  In order to preserve NEM integrity 
 (fancy words for making sure folks aren't gaming the system) the ruling does 
 call out a requirement for net generation output metering (NGOM), but is open 
 to  discussion for an exception for those customers who are not on 
 time-of-use rates.  If you are on TOU rates there is a dual AC meter solution 
 which can capture the full output of the PV separate from any input to 
 protected loads and backup charging.  Washington State utilities use this 
 approach for our FIT with battery based systems.  
 
 If you or your customers have been impacted by the investor-owned utility's 
 stall tactics, I would recommend that you contact the utility and advise them 
 that you are aware of this ruling, and that in light of it you want your 
 application reviewed and approved immediately.
 
 This has been a great week for breaking through stupid logjams.  Power to the 
 people!
 
 
 
 Philip Undercuffler
 Director, Product Management and Strategy 
 OutBack Power Technologies
 17825 59th Ave NE, Suite B, Arlington, WA 98223
 360.618.4306 office  |  425.319.2821 mobile 
 www.outbackpower.com
 
 
 On Thu, Oct 10, 2013 at 1:35 PM, eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com wrote:
 
 Hi All, 
 Following this post with much interest, as this affects everyone that wants 
 to reduce reliance on a utility grid 
  that is already overburdened, If TOU metering was done away with, it would 
 eliminate buy low and sell high, 
 which is a wash when you consider battery replacement cost (due to 
 excessive cycling). 
 GTBB is an excellent way for individuals to do their part in conserving 
 energy. The fact that utility companies 
 are putting up such a battle is indicative of one thing.money (is there 
 any other motive?).  Everyone concerned 
 should contact their lawmakers in Congress to pass a federal law so these 
 utility companies will stop obstructing 
 clean energy. 
 Rgds,
 _
  
 
 Eric Bentsen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   UNITED STATES  
 |   Technical Support Representative 
 Phone: +(650) 351-8237 ext. 001#  |   
 Email: eric.bent...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: 
 www.schneider-electric.com/solar  |   Address: 250 South Vasco Rd., 
 Livermore, CA 94551 
 
 
 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 
 
 
 
 From: Dan Fink danbo...@gmail.com
 To:   RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Date: 10/10/2013 11:22 AM
 Subject:  Re: [RE-wrenches] GTBB resistance
 Sent by:  re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 
 
 
 
 Ray; 
 
 We always run a variety of made-up financial scenarios in our Intro to 
 Off-Grid classes.we usually end up around 35 to 70 cents per kWh.  
 
 Or another way to put ita monthly 'battery bill' of $25 to $120 depending 
 on battery bank size, and how many years they pamper it to lastor torture 
 it to premature death. 
 
 The GTBB backlash from the utilities is just more smoke and mirrors.I'll 
 try to get something up on HuffPost before I leave for Canada next week. 
 
 Dan Fink,
 Executive Director;
 Otherpower
 Buckville

[RE-wrenches] Sharp 170's or so

[Bruce Erickson]

Dear Wrenches,

I'm looking for 3 Sharp 170's, 175's or similar to add to an existing off-grid 
system (existing are NT-170UC1). If you have any leads, please contact me off 
list.
Thanks,
Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com




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Re: [RE-wrenches] Epdm flashing

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi Kris,

The roofing contractor we work with for EDPM can get different boot types, or 
can get custom boots made for our standoffs. I assume you mean heat-welded 
boots. 4 Unirac 2 piece aluminum standoffs haven't been a problem. Maybe you 
need to shop around for a roofer who can get more variety of options for you.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com




On Oct 1, 2013, at 8:49 AM, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

 Hi wrenches,
 
 I am looking to flash a 1 diameter snapnrack post on a pitched roof covered 
 with black epdm membrane.  The roofing manufacturer has a one size fits all, 
 but its too tall to work well.  Any suggestions would be much appreciated.
 
 Thanks,
 Kris
 
 --
 Shine On!
 
 Kris Schmid
 Legacy Solar, LLC
 864 Clam Falls Trail
 Frederic, WI 54837
 715-653-4295
 www.legacysolar.com
 NABCEP Certified PV Installer
 Licenced Wisconsin Master Electrician
 BSEE
 
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[RE-wrenches] Structural Review for Residential PV Systems

[Bruce Leininger]

A local jurisdiction is starting to require that we document non-truss 
rafter dimensions, span and attachment points.  This seems to be a fad 
that other jurisdictions have required at times, and other times not.  
When the existing structure was deemed insufficient, we've either paid a 
structural engineer to do some calcs and recommend more attachment 
points, or sistered the rafters to match the spacing given in the 20 psf 
table in the UBC.


Would the dead load from the PV modules ever be more than that from 
adding a second layer of comp roofing, which does not require a 
structural analysis?  Would the live point loads from the PV system ever 
be greater than the point load of a person walking on the roof?  If the 
answers are no and no, then it seems that a roof that supports a 
person walking on it would not be adversely affected by the installation 
of a non-ballasted residential PV system.


I looking for help with the following:

   1.  Has there been an occasion when a residential PV system
   (non-ballasted), that was installed per the manufacturer's
   instructions, detached from a roof or caused damage to the structure
   of the roof?
   2.  Is there a good explanation for why structural review for
   residential PV systems is necessary?
   3.  Are there studies or resources that I can present to building
   officials to explain why structural review for residential PV
   systems is not necessary?

Thanks for your help.

Bruce

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[RE-wrenches] Inverter EMI fixed

[Bruce Erickson]

I had reported a problem with an SMA inverter messing with a customer's heater 
programming. SMA and/or SunPower (it was a SunPower leased system) very kindly 
allowed replacement of the SB5000US with a newer unit that has the suffix -12 
after the model number. Apparently the design upgrade includes initial charging 
up of the transformer from the DC rather than AC side, which greatly reduces 
EMI on startup. That, plus whatever other improvements are included, absolutely 
worked. The customer's heater has worked flawlessly since the change. Thanks 
Steve!

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com




On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:36 AM, Bruce Erickson wrote:

 I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US 
 which, when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the 
 programming in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to 
 re-enter it daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, 
 they have to leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house.
 
 So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater 
 breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in 
 power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has 
 reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a 
 few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to 
 cost, so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer 
 is experimenting with more robust power conditioners.
 
 Bruce Erickson
 Mendocino Solar Service
 PO Box 1252
 Mendocino, CA 95460
 707-937-1701
 707-937-1741 fax
 br...@mendocinosolar.com
 
 
 
 
 On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:
 
 Jeremy,
 
  What to look for? 
 
 Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. 
 I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on
 sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it
 could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot
 be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may
 change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works
 and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are
 designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power
 (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than
 utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine
 wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee
 that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all.
 I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return
 policy. 
 
 David Palumbo
 Independent Power LLC 
 462 Solar Way Drive
 Hyde Park, VT 05655
 www.independentpowerllc.com 
 Vermont Solar Partner
 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar
 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
 
 Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual
 outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with
 appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for?
 
 Sent from Jeremy's IPhone.  Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power-One micros

[Bruce Leininger]

  
  
Hi Marco. What's the kWh output for the 327 watt module for a whole
day?

Thanks.

Bruce

On 6/5/2013 9:48 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf
  wrote:


  
  
  
  
  
I thought Id pass on some real world
  experience with the Power-One 300-watt micro here in Hawaii.

Ive paired it with a 327-watt module and
  am seeing AC output as high as 316 watts. See the screen shot
  below.

And Ive seen output as high as 259 watts
  AC out of their 250-watt micro.

Im impressed.

Some would pair a 215-watt rated micro with
  a module as large as 270 watts. How smart is that?

marco

  
  
  
  
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[RE-wrenches] Solarworld SW 165/175 needed

[Bruce]

Does anyone know where I might find a Solarworld 165 or 175 mono 
module?  We have to replace one that got damaged.


Thanks!

Bruce Leininger

PV System Designer

GRID Alternatives

1171 Ocean Avenue, Suite 200,

Oakland, CA 94608

Cell 415.571.1764

/GRID Alternatives' mission is to empower communities in need to meet 
their basic requirements of health, education, and economic opportunity 
by providing renewable energy and energy efficiency services, equipment, 
and training. GRID Alternatives works collaboratively with communities 
and local organizations to identify specific needs and to develop 
renewable energy solutions that are environmentally, socially, and 
economically sustainable. We believe that environmental stewardship, 
women's rights,and humanitarian protection are integral to these 
sustainable solutions. /


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[RE-wrenches] Solarworld SW 165/175 mono needed

[Bruce]

Does anyone know where I might find a Solarworld 165 or 175 mono 
module?  We have to replace one that got damaged.


Thanks!

Bruce Leininger

PV System Designer

GRID Alternatives

1171 Ocean Avenue, Suite 200,

Oakland, CA 94608

Cell 415.571.1764

/GRID Alternatives' mission is to empower communities in need to meet 
their basic requirements of health, education, and economic opportunity 
by providing renewable energy and energy efficiency services, equipment, 
and training. GRID Alternatives works collaboratively with communities 
and local organizations to identify specific needs and to develop 
renewable energy solutions that are environmentally, socially, and 
economically sustainable. We believe that environmental stewardship, 
women's rights,and humanitarian protection are integral to these 
sustainable solutions. /



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form

[Bruce Erickson]

I'm having a similar issue with a GRID-TIE inverter just now. SMA 5000US which, 
when it wakes up every morning, removes the date and time from the programming 
in the customers' Monitor brand kerosene heater. They have to re-enter it 
daily, which is annoying enough, but when they go out of town, they have to 
leave the inverter off to avoid coming home to a cold house.

So far SMA has had us move the breaker as far as possible from the heater 
breaker, to no avail. They had no other suggestions. I used a Panamax plug-in 
power conditioner with 50 dB of EMI filtering on the heater outlet, which has 
reduced the frequency of the problem to once a day, when it wakes up, from a 
few times a day. Trying a different heater is out of the question due to cost, 
so I'm stumped as how to avoid an unhappy customer, unless the answer is 
experimenting with more robust power conditioners.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com




On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:12 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:

 Jeremy,
 
  What to look for? 
 
 Unfortunately, probably a different coffee maker. 
 I've gone through this with several different appliances over the years on
 sine wave inverter output. Washing machines, refrigerators, dishwashers it
 could be anything with electronics. Specific manufacturers typically cannot
 be avoided in order to solve this issue. Year to year manufacturers may
 change the design of their appliances, so blanket statements on what works
 and what doesn't are unreliable. All appliances (excepting a few) are
 designed to operate on utility power, not inverter power. Inverter power
 (excepting Exeltech and possibly others) typically has more distortion than
 utility power. Some appliances cannot tolerate the simulated inverter sine
 wave power. I always council my inverter customers that I cannot guarantee
 that all appliances with work flawlessly and that some may not work at all.
 I advise off-grid clients to buy appliances where there is a liberal return
 policy. 
 
 David Palumbo
 Independent Power LLC 
 462 Solar Way Drive
 Hyde Park, VT 05655
 www.independentpowerllc.com 
 Vermont Solar Partner
 25 Years Experience, (802) 888-7194 
 
 
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
 [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of All Solar
 Sent: Tuesday, April 16, 2013 12:47 PM
 To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
 Subject: [RE-wrenches] Outback wave form
 
 Have a client with a new coffee maker that will not run from their new dual
 outback setup. Has anyone heard of this lately. We have had no problems with
 appliances and sine wave inverters. What to look for?
 
 Sent from Jeremy's IPhone.  Sorry for typos and shorthand!
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Power One Microinverters

[Bruce]

Hi August.  I'm curious about these inverters as well.  Have you learned 
anything outside of the Wrenches list about their track record?


Take care.

Bruce

On 10/30/2012 9:08 AM, August Goers wrote:


Hi Wrenches -

Has anyone tried out the new Power One microinverters?

http://www.power-one.com/renewable-energy/products/solar/string-inverters/panel-products/aurora-micro/series-0

Seems like a similar concept to Enphase M215 as far as the trunk 
cabling goes. However, their monitoring device called Aurora CDD 
communicates wirelessly with the microinverters compared to power line 
communications with Enphase. They also seem to be at a higher price 
point compared to Enphase although they are higher wattage at 250 and 
300 Watts.


Best,

August

August Goers

Luminalt Energy Corporation

San Francisco, CA 94110

m: 415.559.1525

o: 415.641.4000

aug...@luminalt.com mailto:aug...@luminalt.com



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[RE-wrenches] Sharp 170's

[Bruce Erickson]

Hello Wrenches,

Does anyone have a line on 3 Sharp 170's, or anything in that family? If so 
please contact me off-list.
Thanks,

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sharp modules

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Daryl,
   The Sharp warranty over here specifically excludes 
installation in a marine/coastal environment.


Bruce Geddes
Freedom Energy


- Original Message - 
From: penobscotso...@midmaine.com

To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2011 12:46 PM
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sharp modules



Just wondering what everyone (anyone) whose used these Sharp modules
thinks of them for salt air environments? Does this lack of seal
compromise their ability to hold up in this type of environment? Any first
hand experience out there?

Daryl DeJoy
NABCEP Certified installer
Penobscot Solar Design








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[RE-wrenches] SolarMount-I

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi All,

What experiences have people had with Unirac's I-beam rail system? 
(Formerly known as Click-sys I believe.) We're looking into trying it out, but 
have some questions. For one, it's touted as being significantly faster to 
install, but looking at the product data, I having trouble identifying where 
all that labor savings comes from. With the 2-1/2 beam one could span farther, 
potentially, but that's dependent on the wind loading allowing fewer 
attachments. Also, how could one level the rails? I don't see any adjustment 
ability, except maybe some type of shim between the QuickMount block and the 
flange foot. Stacks of stainless washers? I wouldn't want to blow a rail system 
on faster only to have the array look less professional.
My other hesitation is the idea of a snap-in connection between the 
flange foot and the rail. In my mind, nothing is more positive than a 
through-bolt and threaded connections. How about lateral grab/flexibility? With 
a bolt in a rail slot, the rail can be adjusted sideways during assembly and 
then the nut tightened up when things are squared up the way you want. Does the 
flange foot give you some lateral movement, and if so, what keeps it in place 
permanently? Just friction? How easy is it to un-click the connection?

Thanks in advance,

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Acid spill...

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Carl,
Unless you ordered special acid, these come shipped with SG of 1295 
to cope with the deep cycling experienced by forklifts.  I would suggest 
balancing acid levels and adding enough distilled water to cover the plates, do 
a charge and measure electrolyte SG's.  That will tell you if you need to add 
acid or H2O to get down to around 1250.

Shipping these with factory acid SG to the islands is not a great idea as the 
higher acid concentration in those temperatures will cause more rapid grid 
corrosion and premature failure.  Diluting acid prolongs life but lowers 
capacity.

Cheers,
Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: Carl Emerson 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, May 02, 2011 10:06 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Acid spill...


  Hi there,

   

  I just shipped a largish bank of Exide BMPE19 flooded batteries to the 
Islands.

   

  On unloading, a pallet split and several cells lost electrolyte.

   

  8 out of the 48 - 2V cells lost about 1/3 of their acid.

   

  The question is would it be safe to even out the acid in the whole 48 cells 
and then top up with distilled water?

   

  Appreciate your collective wisdom.

   

   

  Carl Emerson

  Free Power Co.

  Land line +64 9 473 4286

  Mobile +64 22 630 9689

  Email   emer...@freepower.co.nz

  Web   www.freepower.co.nz



--


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[RE-wrenches] Power One Aurora Inverters

[Bruce]

Hi all.  Does anyone have any experience with the Power One Aurora 
grid-tied inverters?  Any comments on the failure rate for inverters 
manufactured in the last year or two?


Thanks.

Bruce Leininger

PV System Designer

GRID Alternatives

-

1171 Ocean Avenue

Suite 200
Oakland, CA  94608

C: 415-571-1764

/www.gridalternatives.org/

/GRID Alternatives' mission is to empower communities in need to meet 
their basic requirements of health, education, and economic opportunity 
by providing renewable energy and energy efficiency services, equipment, 
and training.GRID Alternatives works collaboratively with communities 
and local organizations to identify specific needs and to develop 
renewable energy solutions that are environmentally, socially, and 
economically sustainable. We believe that environmental stewardship, 
women's rights,and humanitarian protection are integral to these 
sustainable solutions./


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Re: [RE-wrenches] cleaning modules

[Bruce]

Have you heard of using wood ashes?  Seriously :o)  The combination of 
the mild abrasive and potash in the ash make it a good rust remover 
(it's also great for dirty pots too).  You need dry ashes, though.  Rain 
will wash the potash away.


Bruce

On 12/30/2010 8:29 AM, Tom DeBates wrote:

hello Wrenches,
  I recently purchased some used modules. Unfortunately, they were 
mounted near a railroad track and many have a film of rust on the 
front surface. I have tried a few products; Dawn, Simple Green, 
vinegar (5% acidity),  and Krud Kutter to safely remove the rust. So 
far the vinegar seems to be best when considering cost, disposal ,etc. 
But it still takes a good amount of time and elbow grease. Today I 
will try CLR.  Has anyone else run into a similar situation? If so, 
what products and/or methods did you use to remove rust stains?
  Awhile back I had to remove some urethane caulk from the face of 
module and had to resort to a solvent-based chemical (acetoneyes, 
acetone) with disastrous results.

thanks,
tom

Tom DeBates
Habi-Tek
524 Summit St.
Geneva,IL. 60134
630-262-8193
fax 630-262-1343



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[RE-wrenches] need XP600-48 volt

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi Wrenches,We've done a pretty wide search for an Exeltech XP600-48v. They are a few weeks out from Exeltech, so I'm hoping someone has one on the shelf. Contact me off list if so.Thanks,
Bruce EricksonMendocino Solar Service707-937-1701707-937-1741 faxPO Box 1252Mendocino, CA 95460"Serving the Solar System"


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator auto start

[Bruce Geddes]

There is a glitch in the 24hr, 2hr  2 min timer clocks used for AGS in 
V4.0x series Mates.  This may be your issue.  They are unreliable and seem 
to work fine until next time.  Apparently the newest software V4.6 overcomes 
this.  I have resorted to putting systems back on to Genalert as a temporary 
measure.  You may want to check your Mate version and stick with it after 
reprogramming.


Bruce Geddes
PowerOn 


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[RE-wrenches] need Sanyo HIP modules

[Bruce Erickson]

Hello Wrenches,
 
Does anyone know of a source for Sanyo HIP 190's, 195's, or even 200's? We have 
a customer who would like to add 4 to an existing array of 190's.

Thanks,
Bruce

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



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Re: [RE-wrenches] kee klamp fittings

[Bruce Erickson]

I just got a catalog in the mail from http://www.easyfit.com. Looks like a 
complete line, like KeeKlamp, and they sell direct, from Ohio, no minimum 
purchase. But only 1, 1.25 and 1.5.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



On Oct 7, 2010, at 8:13 AM, jay peltz wrote:

 HI All,
 
 Any recommendations about where to get Kee Klamp or Hollaender fittings.
 
 Would be for a ground rack, Steel 1.5 pipe.
 
 thanks,
 
 jay
 
 peltz power
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Re: [RE-wrenches] enphase D380

[Bruce Erickson]

Hi Benn,

No one else has tried the D380's?
We just commissioned our first D380 system, and I can't say we're too 
impressed. Mainly, half of the cost savings from the doubles was eaten up by 
having to buy the trunk cables, and at least all the labor saved by mounting 
less inverters was eaten up by having to manage the bulky trunk cables. The 
less-than-optimal reality of array wire management is made more challenging by 
dealing with these big bulky things.
I think we would use these if Enphase goes back to the daisy chain method of 
the single inverters, but until then, we'll probably stick with the singles.

Bruce Erickson
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701



On Sep 23, 2010, at 10:30 PM, benn kilburn wrote:

 wrenches,
 so i'm lining up a few installations using the newer Enphase D380 TwinPack 
 microinverter and i'm just looking for any feedback or heads-up's before 
 getting started.  i'm not foreseeing any issues, it is looking fairly 
 straight forward like the M190's but nonetheless, if any of you have any 
 comments, they would be appreciated.  i'll provide some feedback of my own 
 once i've done one or two of these systems.  
 cheers,
 benn
 DayStar Renewable Energy Inc. 
 b...@daystarsolar.ca
 780-906-7807 
 HAVE A SUNNY DAY
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DR2424 inverters charging poorly: three units in two days!

[Bruce Geddes]

Although operating on a different voltage (230V) in this country, I noticed a 
huge variation in charge rates using DR's with generator voltages on systems 
that had been in a while.  The generators would gradually drop their output 
voltage over time as air filters clogged etc.  Once they got down to 220V the 
charge rate was significantly longer.  I generally advise my customers to have 
the gene set up to run at 240V (about 10% higher than the grid standard here) 
to get fast charging times with DR's.

It got so bad I started fitting expanded scale AC voltmeters on the AC inputs 
with coloured sectors on the scale to indicate when things were going wrong.  
Needle in the red zone, service the gene!

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn
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Re: [RE-wrenches] corrigated roof mounting feet

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Jeff,
   Down here in New Zealand corrugated iron is a very common 
roofing material.  Generally it is mounted on wooden frameworks and we 
penetrate the iron with a lag screw which is flashed off.  This won't work 
for steel purlins like on your job.  I have done one install on a steel 
framed barn and had to use stainless steel threaded rod instead of lag 
screws.  I used a captive nut which goes by a number of brand names such as 
Nutsert and Rivnut.  Basically a large pop rivet with an internal thread. 
I set these from below and screwed the rod in from the top.  I used Loctite 
on the thread and also a backnut to lock it into place and ensure it did not 
turn when fixing the nuts on the top.  The flashings are the small rubber 
boots plumbers use and these are fixed with steeltite screws and suitable 
caulk.


Don't try to use any block that will fit into the corrugations as you will 
then end up with a backup of water which will cause corrosion and possibly 
seep past your flashing.  The rod takes the load directly onto the purlin.


Cheers,
Bruce Geddes
PowerOn

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GT 3.0 FAILURES

[Bruce Erickson]

Don,We had 3 consecutive failures on one job (at 2 weeks, 2 months, and 1.5 years after installation). Customer rightfully said "I don't want another one of those", so we replaced it with a SWR2500 at our expense. Xantrex ultimately reimbursed us. Another job had 2 failures. Haven't used a Xantrex product since. (except the venerable C-40).Sorry for your troubles. You might see if they are open to reimbursing you for switching to another make, especially after multiple failures at one site.
Bruce EricksonMendocino Solar Service707-937-1701707-937-1741 faxPO Box 1252Mendocino, CA 95460"Serving the Solar System"

On Jun 7, 2010, at 11:22 AM, i2p wrote:SORRY FOR THE BLANK,I am replacing some GT 3.0 multiple times. Though Xantrex pays the labor, this is still a crummy deal. My customers really loose confidence the 2nd and 3rd time , Bad for industry and my company.Question, how many other installers are experiencing multiple failures with the GT series. I have a bad feeling that they are not addressing the engineering problems and just replacing parts and shipping the same old problem back to the field.DonOffline Solar
 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie hydro

[Bruce Geddes]

SMA use the Windyboy with a rectifier/diversion box for this application.
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mark Dickson 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Friday, April 23, 2010 6:04 AM
  Subject: [RE-wrenches] Grid-tie hydro


  Hello Wrenches, 

  Got one for you. . .

  We have a customer that has great potential for a micro-hydro system and 
already has the grid on his property.  The obvious way to tie the turbine unit 
in would be to go back through batteries and a GVFX or XW.  In trying to 
eliminate the batteries and the inefficiencies I want to look at using a 
battery-less grid-tie inverter.  I am assuming that I could use a small 
inverter such as the PVP 1100 and high-voltage Stream Engine.  The problem I am 
trying to work around is how to divert the ~240DC output of the turbine, if and 
when the grid goes down.  Would this be as simple a placing a relay on the AC 
side of the inverter and having it switch on/off a large diversion load?

  For the diversion load I was thinking I could just series up a set of water 
heater elements to get to the necessary voltage.

   

  Has anybody accomplished this before?  Jay?  Are there any other elegant 
solutions for this?

   

  Has anybody successfully used a WindyBoy with hydro?

   

  Best regards,

   

  Mark Dickson,

  NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer T

  Oasis Montana Inc.

   

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Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteries

[Bruce Geddes]

Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteriesHi Hugh.

Positive electrode:  PbO2 + 3H +HSO4 + 2e = PbSO4 + 2H2O  (e= electron)

Negative electrode:  Pb + HSO4 = PbSO4 + H +2e

Sorry, I can't insert the superscript symbols to show electrical charge.  If it 
is confusing let me know and I will repost this with the charge in brackets 
following the ion.

In cold conditions the ion transfer rate slows so in effect the internal 
resistance of the cell rises.  It simply can't deliver the electrons under 
load.  If the electrons are taken out at a reduced rate then the Vdrop of the 
internal resistance is lowered and the cell terminal voltage stays up for 
longer.

So, to use your analogy of the bank, in cold weather the money counters operate 
more slowly and if the temperature rises they return to normal speed.  The 
money is still there, it is just the rate at which it comes out that varies.  
In cold weather the counters simply won't deliver as much before they say my 
fingers are too cold, that's all you get today!

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn
  - Original Message - 
  From: Hugh 
  To: RE-wrenches 
  Sent: Saturday, January 16, 2010 12:25 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteries


  hi


  We know that batteries deliver less amphours at low temperature and at high 
currents.  Volts drop quicker.  That's my starting point.  My question that I 
still do not hear an answer to is this:


  If the battery is a bank account and its harder to get the money out in cold 
weather and when you want to get your hands on a lot at once...  Does this 
actually mean that some of the money gets lost?  What happens to it?  Is it 
perhaps available later when the bank warms up or the demand gets less hectic?  
Is there really less money in there or does it just seem like less due to the 
conditions?


  I notice that Ah capacity is actually defined as how much Amphours you can 
get out before the battery reaches a certain terminal voltage.  I am wondering 
whether it is the ability to maintain voltage that is the limiting factor 
whereas the chemicals in there can still deliver amphours, given  the right 
temperature and time later.  You can certainly see recovery take place when a 
battery warms up and/or operates on lighter loads.


  One last time what happens to the chemicals (lead and lead oxide) that 
represent Amphours of charge in the battery plates?  For me this is a little 
bit like current of 10 amps entering one end of  a piece of wire and only 9 
amps coming out the other end.  I understand that the volts go down due to 
voltage drop (in this analogy) but loss of current is entirely a different 
matter.


  Thanks for any help with this rather obscure question.


  Hugh


A lead-acid battery is an electro-chemical processor (just like you and 
other living things). When you and your battery are cold or hot, performance 
changes because the chemical process is affected by temperature. Cold equals 
sluggish chemical reaction, reduces the capacity to perform work, and affects 
battery performance linearly. Battery chemistry is well understood. When I get 
some time, I'll google for temperature-based formulas and charts unless someone 
else posts the links first.

  - Original Message -
  From: Hugh
  To: RE-wrenches
  Sent: Friday, January 15, 2010 12:02 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteries


  Hi Jamie,




Remember, as batteries cool actual capacity is reduced, so if 200AH is 
50% @ 25C it is significantly more than 50% @ 5C.   Thus, you are discharging 
more deeply.



  But earlier you put it this way:


  Regarding temperature effects on capacity, earlier responses are spot 
on as the lower capacity is totally as a result of slower reaction times as a 
result of lower temperatures.  



  There is an issue here that I need to understand better.  You state that 
a battery has lower capacity in low temperatures.  Suppose you take a fully 
charged, 400 Ah battery and cool it down to -5 degrees C where according to our 
numbers it will only have 80% of its nominal capacity.  You then remove 160 Ah 
(say 10 amps for 16 hours).  It will then be 50% discharged.  Now warm it up 
again to 20 degrees or whatever.  My question is: will you only have 200 
amphours left in it now?  And if so, what happened to the other 40 amphours?  
Does low temperature operation actually lose amphours, or is it just more 
sluggish?  What is the chemical explanation for the lost amphours?


  I understand batteries as a chemical process of converting amphours into 
chemical changes.  I assume that a given amount of electrical charge converts a 
given amount of lead into lead sulphate (and likewise) back again.  I 
understand that cooling will make this process less efficient and thereby 
result in a rise in charging voltage and a drop in discharging voltage.  But 
does a low temperature actually mean that a given amount of lead being

Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteries

[Bruce Geddes]

Re: [RE-wrenches] discharging Rolls batteries
  Capacity is reduced at low temperatures.  Now does this mean that there 
really is less energy in the battery, so that if I take out 50% of this reduced 
capacity I will only end up with a 50% state of charge once it has warmed, or 
is this just a performance hit that reduces the voltage and makes the battery 
capacity appear to be less?  Will the battery actually have less amphours to 
deliver, or will it just be delivering at a lower voltage?  My point is to ask 
whether it is legitimate to push the battery to a lower voltage in cold weather 
on the assumption that it is not really running that low, but just sluggish 
with cold?
Hi Hugh, When discussing battery characteristics with a chemist at my supplier 
years ago I was told the capacity at 0 deg c is around 50% of that at 25 deg c 
because the ion transfer rate within the cell is slowed by the low temperature. 
 This loss of capacity is recovered once the battery warms again.  The same 
reason why a fully charged cranking battery in a car can fail to turn the motor 
in cold weather.  Ion rate is so low it simply can't deliver enough current to 
the starter motor.

So, the answer to the second part of your question is yes.

A good thread with lots of useful background into how batteries really operate.

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn (at the other end of the world)
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sync problem

[Bruce Geddes]

Victron can


The SW could provide true generator support, meaning that the two settings
(Set AC2 in and Set Gen amps AC) were hard limits. As the AC load 
increased,

the SW reduced the charge rate as needed to meet the load. If the load
continued to increase beyond the Set AC 2 in limit, the SW could 
actually
invert from the batteries to supply the load, thus supporting the 
generator

while it's connected and operating.

The Outback can't do this; I'm not sure if any modern inverters can. I 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charging AGM Batteries

[Bruce Geddes]

The serious commercial chargers have a deltaI/deltat (current vs 
temperature) alogorithm to detect when electrolysis of the electrolyte 
begins to occur.  Failing that, a Pout vs Pin alogorithm is next best.  Both 
these make for an expensive controller which is hard to justify in domestic 
systems.  The best we can usually work with is a voltage based controller 
and hopefully a charge rate that won't boil the cells. 


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[RE-wrenches] FW250

[Bruce Geddes]

Did one FW250 and that was it.  No space for bus bars and it can be an issue 
remebering each bit you need to order for a job.  Also, the breakers are not 
supposed to be mounted facing up or down in order to work properly so that 
means the install has to run vertically up the wall or be on a shelf where the 
inverter led indicators are not visible.  E panel wins hands down even outside 
the USA!

Bruce Geddes
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters

[Bruce Geddes]

I am not going to get personal but sometimes people in the USA forget there is 
the rest of teh world out there and it is not as well serviced as their own 
patch.  Just to paint the picture, I live in a valley with a mountain blocking 
access to the only satellite currently available for broadband, am on a 
multiplexed phone lne with a 2K download speed and no copper wire BB option.  
No fibre optic and no wireless.  No cell phone coverage.  I am not crying a 
river and I do have valid reasons for being in this position so please don't be 
so bloody patronising!
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Creswell 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 12:54 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters


  Cry a river dude.  There's no excuse for not joining 21st century.   Wrenches 
on dial up please chime in if there's any of you out there.

   

  Travis Creswell

  Ozark Energy Services

   


--

  From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Bruce Geddes
  Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2009 3:53 PM
  To: RE-wrenches
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters

   

  For goodness sake, posting attachements of 2M or so.  There was a discussion 
on this forum some months ago about large attachments because some of us do not 
have access to broadband and not by choice!



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters

[Bruce Geddes]

Pretty close Allan, but mountains, sheep and mountains!

Cheers,
Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: Allan Sindelar 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Monday, August 17, 2009 3:09 PM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters


  Yeah, Travis, there are excuses, dude. In the current issue of the 
Economist there's an article about wireless vs. wire-based telephone service. 
The US is only ranked 15th among developed nations in cellular coverage. I 
believe it's the same with internet. Private enterprise at work, dude, for 
better and worse. We can't all afford satellite (at $70/month?) if we haven't 
been served with good wired or wireless coverage.

   

  And after posting this short rant about cellular and wireless service in the 
US, I will note that Bruce Geddes is in Motueka, New Zealand. More power to 
Wrenches who don't live in LA and still read our posts!! Bruce is somewhere on 
the other side of the planet, likely surrounded by sheep, mountains, and sheep. 

   

  Peace, brother,

  Allan  (who pays $30/month for great high-speed internet through a 
community-based nonprofit high-speed wireless cooperative (www.lcwireless.org - 
check out the home page - hooray for nonprofit anarchy!) using two PV-powered 
access points (repeaters) I installed to bring it the 12 or so miles up into 
our neck of off-grid mountains well south of Santa Fe). 

   

  Allan Sindelar

  al...@positiveenergysolar.com

  NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer

  EE98J Journeyman Electrician

  Positive Energy, Inc.

  3201 Calle Marie

  Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507

  505 424-1112

  www.positiveenergysolar.com


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Limited broadband (was Seasonal Adjusters)

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi Travis, Apology accepted with relief :-)  I'm a happy camper.

If I need something (product brochure, manual etc) I take a trip into town to 
an internet cafe with my laptop.  Usually the speed there is not great (depends 
on the number of users at any time) but it is the only practical option.  At 
NZ$4/hr it is better than tying up the phone for 1/2 a day!  That is assuming 
the phone is working.  Browsing for fun is limited.  If a page does not load in 
20 seconds or so that is it, the site is just too large for my connection.  
Keep in mind that this service is costing me NZ$13/month as part of a bundle 
with my telco.

Yes, I have real problems with people (usually city based) even within NZ that 
can't seem to understand I don't want a 1 or 2 MB joke file or picture of their 
kids sent to me.  Still, hope is on the horizon (or just above it) in the form 
of a 256/64 satellite that I might be able to see.  Mind you, being in the 
mountains has advantages.  I have been micro-hydro powered for 14 years now!

Wrenches is one of the internet things that I really value.  The RE sector in 
this country is small so the cross-polination I get from the discussions is an 
opportunity to learn that I don't have locally.  So much more gear is used 
Stateside that you guys are likely to see problems or solutions before I could 
even think of them.  Yes, there are some brands we don't get and we have a 230V 
50Hz supply so some is different but there are many common issues.

The threads on regulations are interesting because we will see these problems 
here in a few years.  I get advance notice of programming problems or conflicts 
before the distributors here know of them.  The size of systems many of you do 
are only just starting to appear here so installation problems and tips are 
really valuable.

Some of the discussions held here have led me to re-evaluate the way I do my 
work and to improve my quality.  It is good.

Forward into a sunnier, windier and wetter future

Cheers,
Bruce
  - Original Message - 
  From: Travis Creswell 
  To: 'RE-wrenches' 
  Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2009 12:09 AM
  Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Seasonal Adjusters


  Please accept my apology not being aware of your unique situation and realize 
that my tone was based on what I interpreted on an unnecessarily less the 
friendly tone towards the poster of the pictures.

   

  On a side note, I imagine the wrenches list is the least of your internet 
problems.  How in the world are you able to do anything on the internet?  My 
outrageously expensive and somewhat unreliable 1.6 MB connection via satellite 
is almost too slow for most of the web now a days.  The very instant I have 
another option I'm getting off of satellite.

   

  Peace, Travis


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Re: [RE-wrenches] concentrated photovoltaics

[Bruce]

The main issue that I understand with concentrated PV, is that it works 
much better in the desert.  Any moisture in the air diffuses the 
sunlight so it comes in at random angles.  I think the insolation tables 
for a location give numbers for concentrated solar.


Bruce

Tom Elliot wrote:
Has anyone seen any hard data on systems that use concentrated 
photovoltaics such as ZenithSolar http://www.zenithsolar.com/ or 
Morgan Solar http://www.morgansolar.com/?

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Re: [RE-wrenches] GPS units

[Bruce Geddes]

Hi WIlliam,  I have a small hand held device called an Alba Windwatch made by 
Silva for this job and calculating hydro heads.  The specs claim an accuracy to 
+- 1.0m.  It uses barometric pressure and so far I have found it pretty good.  
Only downside is it is not waterproof so falling in streams can be a problem!

I always check it out before using it by putting it on the ground, letting it 
stabilise and then making sure it registers a change as I raise it above waist 
height.  One thing to be careful of is the pressure sensor is mounted behind 
the battery and the compartment is vented to allow exposure to the atmosphere 
so heat from the hand can upset the pressure reading.  It needs to be held by 
the edges with the fingertips to be accurate.

Bruce Geddes
PowerOn
A small place called New Zealand

  Accurate enough to size water pumping systems.  I imagine 3 meters total, or 
+/- 1.5 meters.  I don't need absolute measurements, just relative between two 
points.

  William
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Re: [RE-wrenches] housekeeping

[Bruce Geddes]

4. When we moved the list from Topica last summer, I enabled the ability 
to have html and file attachments as an experiment. It seems to be OK, and 
some of you like it so I probably will not change back. But please only 
include file attachments if you think a lot of Wrenches will appreciate 
the file being handed to them. If you think only a few might like the 
file, it is better to give list members a choice by putting the file 
somewhere on the internet and merely sending the URL and description to 
the list. Yes, even in this day and age of high bandwidth, we actually 
have some members that are still on painfully slow dialup and semi-slow 
satellite.




Yes, with a download speed of around 2kB large attachments are a real issue. 
No, it is not that I am too stingy to get broadband, the service just does 
not make it to my place, even the sattelite!  Even my phone line is 
multiplexed.


Bruce Geddes
PowerOn 


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