Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Hey Darryl,

What voltage ranges do you mean? This is AC coupled, so it will rely on a third 
party solar inverter for the Solar generation side of things. If you mean AC 
voltage tolerance, I’d assume it gets wider when “off grid” like Outback. The 
specs and manuals don’t say. Would be worth asking Franklin unless another 
Wrench has gotten this already?

--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
VP of Engineering
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, September 17, 2023 12:23 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Darryl Thayer 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

sorry for a dumb question but what is the voltage ranges of the Franklin?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 4:26 PM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Enphase does generator support as well. Fortunately, I do not need that, so 
maybe it opens up my options. It's good to know that Franklin supports 
off-grid. I will reach out to them to confirm.

I asked my Enphase rep to run this up the chain of command to see if they would 
support this installation given that it's kind of high profile and a fantastic 
marketing opportunity.

Jason Szumlanski
Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group
NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP)
Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956


On Thu, Sep 14, 2023 at 5:17 PM Daniel Young 
mailto:da...@sesre.com>> wrote:
I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC 
trigger points. They can start either  2 wire start generators, or if the 
generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can actually 
wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and let Franklin 
kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>

From: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
 On Behalf Of Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>>
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a 
completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?

I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in 
an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 
10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.

I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not 
officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to 
get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, 
that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.

I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like 
that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going 
to be limited.

I don't need any generator integration.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

I believe they do. They also have generator support with programable SOC 
trigger points. They can start either  2 wire start generators, or if the 
generator is existing and has a complicated signaling system, you can actually 
wire the Franklin smart module to the existing generator ATS and let Franklin 
kill the AC power to the ATS to force the generator to start.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2023 4:35 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jason Szumlanski 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Franklin Home Power

Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Does anyone know if Franklin supports their AC-coupled battery solution in a 
completely off-grid scenario (no grid present)?

I need to install a demonstration system with ~40kWh capacity to run loads in 
an outdoor off-grid facility. It needs to be wall mounted, NEMA 3R, and have 
10kW AC output rating minimum. Aesthetics are important.

I'm contemplating installing an Enphase 5P battery system, but it's not 
officially supported, even though I believe I can trick the system enough to 
get it commissioned and running in off-grid mode. If Franklin supports this, 
that's a checkmark in their column of the comparison chart.

I'm not opposed to a 48V DC battery system with a Sol-Ark 15k or something like 
that, but I think my options for wall-mount, outdoor, and beautiful are going 
to be limited.

I don't need any generator integration.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group


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Re: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Agreed with August. I have tried professional window teams using pro grade 
caulks and sealants. I’ve tried gaskets, I’ve tried the foam tape system Lumos 
suggests for their canopy system. Nothing has allowed a reliable and longer 
term seal. I moved to the same standard, 100% requiring a roof under the array 
as part of the canopy if water protection is desired.

For me canopies without dedicated roofing provide shade and limited snow 
protection. Protection from rain is limited to giving pedestrians several 
larger areas to hide under solar modules but water gets concentrated at the 
module gaps.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
August Goers via RE-wrenches
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2023 1:17 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: August Goers 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] sealing a carport array

Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.

Hi Kirk,

This probably isn't the answer you want, but we insist that a conventional roof 
is installed (could be metal, bitumen, etc) and then install the array on top 
if the client needs it to be watertight. It just seems like everything else 
such as rubber gaskets or tape will be temporary or problematic over time. 
Maybe others out there know of a good way to do it!

August
Luminalt




On Wed, Sep 13, 2023 at 10:08 AM Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
All,

Looking for recommendations to seal the gaps between modules in a carport array 
for weather-tightness. I've used the Sunmodo gaskets before, but curious about 
other reliable options. Thanks.
--
Kirk Herander / kirkh@vermont.solar
Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

I still use the SolarABC’s reference map, pulls the ASHRAE data. Good for the 
US only.

https://energyresearch.ucf.edu/solar-certification/solar-reference-map/

Not record lows, but I have used this for years as the design low temperature 
for string sizing.

They claim the data is outdated, but with climate change I feel safe that the 
Extreme minimum temperature is likely to only go up 
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
VP of Engineering
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, August 22, 2023 1:47 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Cc: Christopher Warfel 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Record Low

Caution: This email originated from outside SES. Do not click links or open 
attachments unless you recognize the sender and know the content is safe.


Hi Drake, here you go



ASHRAE climatic design conditions 2009/2013/2017/2021 
(ashrae-meteo.info)



Chris
On 8/22/2023 1:28 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good source for finding record low temperatures in various areas? We 
are designing a project that has very different temperature characteristics 
than we are used to.

Ashrae.org was recommended as a source. Does anyone know where on the site to 
look?

Thank you,

Drake


Drake Chamberlin

Athens Electric LLC

Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810

CO Master Electrician’s License 4526

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

--




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--
 Christopher Warfel
 ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
401-466-8978
[cid:image001.jpg@01D9D500.181C6290]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Can echo this, I did a fresh look into this last year and still have not found 
anything better than a hammer and feeler tool.

We are considering going to a deck direct attachment like rooftech as well, 
which makes rafter locations less critical. We intend to still have crews find 
the rafter and place the attachments on the rafter as best they can without 
drilling holes. As the attachments still prefer to be located on a rafter to 
maximize snow load bearing capacity. Nice thing about the Rooftech is that if 
you miss the rafter location with the center holes, it’s entirely likely you 
will hit it with the side screws. In either case you are still sitting above 
the rafter and can expect to bear significant weight there instead of relying 
on the OSB/Plywood decking.

--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, April 16, 2023 2:47 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Kristopher Schmid 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Truss finder

Thanks William!  Laughed out loud at the first picture!
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE

On Sun, Apr 16, 2023, 10:12 AM Kristopher Schmid 
mailto:sol...@legacysolar.com>> wrote:
I am considering buying a deep scanner for locating trusses.  Any 
recommendations or testimonials?
Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

“I would also question the adhesive if it will take years of heat, water and 
the material it's adhered too.  “

That is the issue I found wit this.

I installed hundreds of kW of a “not to be named” roofing manufacturers solar 
system that used Velcro years back. Lets just say we spent more hours carrying 
solar modules back on the roof after they blew off over the next 4 years than 
we did installing the original system (at least it felt like it). The Velcro to 
roof glue connection is what gave up every time. Biological growth under the 
hot modules I think really deteriorated the glue joint quickly. In case anyone 
is wondering, we used the roofers provided adhesive primer, rolled on adhesive, 
and did so under their direct supervision and sign off.

That array has since been removed at the roofers expense.

Every system is different, and materials science is changing all the time, 
maybe this is better?

I would approach this with caution.

--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jerry Shafer via RE-wrenches
Sent: Tuesday, April 11, 2023 5:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Jerry Shafer 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Attaching PV with VELCRO

Wrenches, Corey
Yes it was a thing in California but soon fell off the radar, They were based 
or had a shop in Sacramento CA. It was mainly designed for BIPV but was adopted 
to framed panels, grounding is an issue, mounting of the electrical another. l 
have had bolted modules rip out of unirac in Hawaii during a hurricane so no 
velcro for me. I would also question the adhesive if it will take years of 
heat, water and the material it's adhered too.
Fun times

On Tue, Apr 11, 2023, 2:41 PM Corey Shalanski via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Wrenches,

As far out as the subject line might seem, a company in Italy has apparently 
developed a system for attaching PV arrays to flat roofs using strips of 
VELCRO.

The potential advantages of this system seem hard to ignore:
   - lightweight
   - no ballast required (also, no mechanical attachments)
   - quick installation and easy assembly

Has anyone ever encountered anything similar here in the states? Any opinions 
about the feasibility of this approach?

Corey Shalanski
Portland, Jamaica
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Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Thanks all for the advice. I figured it was not worth trying on a different 
battery brand. I honestly needed to be able to tell them I researched it and 
asked my peers.

The client really uses the 3 x strings they have and did not really want to go 
down to 3. They are currently choosing to get the two Rolls under the prorated 
warranty, and hopes to get another 2 useful years out of the bank before 
planning to replace.

Already prepared him on the cost of the equivalent Li+ at todays prices. So he 
knows roughly where he is heading.

Side note: I am in the camp of trying for 2 x strings when possible (agree that 
3 x strings is the absolute limit, and not the best option), simply because if 
a single cell goes bad, I don’t want a client with essentially nothing 
available until we can get a replacement and get on site. With 2 strings, they 
can make due at least. That’ll go out the window with Lithium though. Looking 
at Fortress Power for the next battery bank for this client. But we will see 
what changes in the market by the time it’s needed.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Monday, April 3, 2023 4:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

5 years old on 3 strings, it might not matter to mix, better get ready for a 
new bank.
I have never used more than 1 string for my clients and get closer to 10 years 
life, so maybe there is better advice out there.

Good Luck!



Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar

"we go where powerlines don't"

http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/

e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net<mailto:offgridso...@sti.net>

text 209 813 0060



On 2023-04-03 11:03 am, Daniel Young via RE-wrenches wrote:

Hello Wrenches,



Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550’s. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.



The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don’t need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)



Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?



3 x strings of 8 c S550’s (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.

Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.

The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)



I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don’t see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I’m 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.



Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.



With Regards,

--



Danny Young

NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90

Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions

Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis

513-448-5176 (mobile)

877-312-7456 (Main Office)

da...@sesre.com<mailto:da...@sesre.com>



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List 

[RE-wrenches] replace part of rolls battery bank

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

Have a client with 24 x Rolls S550's. 2 of the batteries have given up the 
ghost. Rolls will replace them under the pro rated warranty.

The issue us, the client is wanting to replace them with non Rolls batteries to 
save $. They can get 400AH 6V L-16 form factor FLA batteries from a local 
battery house for the same price I am going to get the new Rolls for. And that 
also means they don't need to pay for freight. The net result is that they 
could save $4-500 by getting the batteries locally. No freight, and no markup 
on the batteries we provide (I can technically add the lost markup back in as 
labor, we do need to make something off of the 3hr one way drive to swap the 
batteries)

Question is, has anyone got experience mixing battery brands like this?

3 x strings of 8 c S550's (L-16HC would be the replacements) both dead 
batteries are on the same string.
Whole battery bank is near the 5yr old mark.
The last rolls battery bank the client had lasted them 10 years. (they baby the 
battery bank to be sure, and take maintenance seriously)

I understand where the client is coming from, but do not want to let them shoot 
themselves in the foot, and I simply do not know what the chances are of 
swapping in batteries from a different brand. In my head, I don't see a big 
issue, even if they are sub par, they will likely just get older faster, and 
fail around the same time as the rest of the 4-5yr old battery bank. But I'm 
unsure if there are any more subtle issue that these other batteries would 
cause.

Client has been loyal for more than a decade, so I want to give them a fair 
shake at saving some $ now, as they plan to move to lithium when the whole 
battery bank finally gives out.

With Regards,
--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Have not used them in some time, but used to a LOT and generally happy with 
them.

http://www.solarbos.com/Products

Lead times were a bit long, in the 1-2 month range, but who knows what they are 
now, last time I used them was pre-pandemic.

--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Mac 
Lewis via RE-wrenches
Sent: Sunday, February 26, 2023 10:54 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: Mac Lewis 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000Vdc Combiner Block, Fusing

Good Morning Wrenches,

I am looking for suggestions on suppliers that work in the 1000Vdc UL listed 
equipment space.  Specifically, I'm trying to build a 1000Vdc rated combiner 
(Combining 4 x 100A rated battery outputs up to 900Vdc) as well as add OCPD 
(fuse or breaker) on the output going to the storage inverter.  I'd love to 
find a packaged UL listed combiner for this, but I've had no luck with that.  
Any suggestions/supplier contacts are appreciated

Thanks!

--



Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates
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[RE-wrenches] Sunpower Performance Warranty Claim

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Hello Wrenches,

Any experience successfully submitting a performance warranty claim with 
SunPower on their solar modules? Right now, in order to Provide what they are 
asking for, we will likely spend more time/money testing to their satisfaction 
than it would cost for us to likely buy new modules and just replace the array.

Anybody have a similar experience? Or suggestions on how to deal with Sunpower?

Don't want to bog this down with all the details but suffice to say we I-V 
traced the array at the string level as a sanity check (7-10 % lower than 
anticipated performance), and a random selection of individual modules as well 
and we are seeing roughly 8% lower performance than expected given the array 
age and listed performance warranty. (STC corrected I-V trace is 8% lower than 
it should be for an 8 year old solar module from SunPower)

With Regards,

--

Danny Young
NABCEP PV Installation Professional #031508-90
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Roof Jack

[Daniel Young via RE-wrenches]

Just curious if there is a reason you don’t just cut the roof vent off above 
the flashing?

It is allowed by the 2018 IRC and later in section P3103.1.3, solar modules are 
explicitly called out as a reason to cut the vents.

https://codes.iccsafe.org/content/IRC2021P1/chapter-31-vents#IRC2021P1_Pt07_Ch31_SecP3103

Not all states adopt this of course. Ohio for example redacted this from the 
code version they have adopted. So maybe that is the reason. If not, there is 
your code reference if needed.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of AE 
Solar via RE-wrenches
Sent: Thursday, May 12, 2022 7:48 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Cc: AE Solar 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Roof Jack

We just used a few of these recently. Seemed easy enough and plan on using more 
on an upcoming project. We had easy access to the vent in the attic which 
probably helped. Only complaint was that I was worried about the vent cap 
(provided) blowing off and eventually having debris get in there and get stuck 
in the horizontal run on the roof. I’m not a plumber though…so maybe I’m over 
thinking it. We put a screw into the cap just in case

On Thu, May 12, 2022 at 7:33 AM Jason Szumlanski via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Has anyone used this product? I'm looking for feedback on installation ease and 
your impressions.

Jason Szumlanski
Florida Solar Design Group
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Adam Katzman (he/him)
Autonomous Energies | Owner/Operator
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge BOSS splice

[Daniel Young]

My read on that is that the splice needs to be anywhere EXCEPT where two 
modules meet, so for every 40” nominal module width, there is a 2” exclusion 
zone (5% of the module width), so there is a 95% chance a random splice 
placement will be in a good place.

Basically they don’t want mid clamps right on the splice.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Tedeyan
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 3:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Ironridge BOSS splice

Hi All,

I am looking through the installation manual for Ironridge racking and noticed 
this:

BOSS - Bonded Structual Splice
Insert BOSS into first Rail up until the Stop Tab. Slide second Rail fully into 
place.
➢ Rows using Classic Splice or BOSS and exceeding 100 feet of Rail must use
Expansion Joints.
➢ Boss Splices may be installed in any location within a span.
➢ UFO and Bonding Hardware must be installed 1" away from the point where
two Rails join together.
--
I put the third bullet point in bold. Is this saying that you need to ensure 
that the splice ends up essentially right where two modules meet? Or are they 
talking about for an expansion joint only? Needing to plan out the exact splice 
locations and cut every rail to the right length seems to make these splices 
way more difficult to work with than the normal splice, so I don't get why 
anyone would use them.

Cheers,
Dave

--
[Logo]
Dave Tedeyan, P.E.
Owner | Sungineer Solar
p: he | him | his
a: 1653 Slaterville Rd. | Ithaca, NY 14850
w: www.sungineersolar.com
c: (607) 288-2898

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Golf Cart as temporary off-grid PV

[Daniel Young]

Jason, this is the solution I was also thinking about bringing up. I wonder if 
it would require a change in programming every time the battery was 
disconnected/reconnected. If it does need a program change, that makes it much 
less desirable. But it could still work. The DIY/ system cobbling type might 
not be opposed to changing the programming when/if the need arises to switch to 
battery mode.

Slight tangent: A youtuber named Will Prowse did a variation on this, using a 
lithium battery pack in the golf car, and he mounted an All-In-One Chinese 
inverter (MPPT brand, but similar to Sol-Ark/ Grow Watt) in the golf cart to be 
the battery charger, and mobile power source in a relatively lightweight 
package. He is very much in line with the DIY/cobble it together type 
demographic: Just look for Will Prowse Golf Cart on youtube. Worth a look 
during lunch time at least

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Wednesday, March 16, 2022 6:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Golf Cart as temporary off-grid PV

What happens with a Sol-Ark 12k in grid-tie with battery backup mode when the 
battery "disappears?" Does it continue to operate in straight grid-tie mode 
with only AC connected and DC not present?

Jason

On Tue, Mar 15, 2022, 6:46 PM Jason Szumlanski 
mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>> 
wrote:
That's what I was thinking- a MS4448 would be a nice option with a good surge 
rating.

I'm trying to make this work with little to minimal equipment onboard the golf 
cart. Ideally, the battery would connect to a stationary inverter/charger at 
the house via a cable/connector. The PV would be permanently mounted also and 
would be grid-tied for times the battery is not connected. I am thinking this 
needs to be an AC coupled scenario with a grid-tie inverter that is AC coupled 
to the battery inverter. I'm hung up on how to safely connect the battery to 
the inverter (and more importantly, disconnect the battery from the inverter).


Jason




On Tue, Mar 15, 2022 at 6:29 PM Ray Walters 
mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:
Most carts run at 48vdc these days.  They either have eight 6 volt
batteries, or six 8 v batteries.  I would think that would make a good
match for power backup with a 4kw range inverter like the Magnum MS4448.

Ray

On 3/15/2022 12:18 PM, Nick A Lucchese wrote:
> Not sure what the golf cart fleets are these days but decades ago as a 
> youngster I worked at a course where all the EZ-GO’s were 36v nominal with 
> all Trojan T-105’s. Also uncertain if still available or not but years ago 
> the first Cybo inverters I purchased were also intended for 36v nominal 
> battery banks. Perhaps George and the team still offer that model. It’s 
> obviously a different type of architecture and I didn’t have any luck with 
> the 4 amp 36v charger on the inverter’s AC output that was promoted but 
> surely you could figure your means of charging with perhaps a Flexmax or 
> similar. I had some issues with the hot water heater model but the off grid 
> model consistently performed it’s inverting function assuming there was a fan 
> or some sort of resistive or inductive load to keep the inverter awake. The 
> only other 36v inverter I can think of was the Heart Transverter which was a 
> big loss for a few of us.
>
> https://www.cyboenergy.com/products/offgridoverview.html
>
> Best of luck Jason, Nick
>
>
>
>
>> On Mar 14, 2022, at 3:48 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
>> mailto:ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com>>
>>  wrote:
>>
>> Every now and then I get questions here in the land of hurricanes and golf 
>> courses about using golf carts as the battery bank for a permanently mounted 
>> grid-tie home PV system in a backup scenario. Does anyone have any ideas on 
>> a good way to do something like this? The battery would need to be able to 
>> be unplugged of course (not under load I hope!) It's mostly DIY'ers trying 
>> to cobble together a solution for a small critical load panel for their home.
>>
>> The idea is becoming more popular as people hear about using EVs for home 
>> backup. I'd like to get ahead of it and maybe even offer a solution that's 
>> safe, legal, and functional.
>>
>> Jason Szumlanski
>> Florida Solar Design Group
>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Troubleshooting

[Daniel Young]

I recently had to fix a similar issue with a dual SI site. No blown Capacitor, 
but blank screens regardless of power cycles, and good voltages in and out.

Took the covers off and notice a red led illuminated on the bottom left corner 
of the main circuit board next to the electro-mechanical relay. Talked with 
support and they stated that was a LBM-3 error (low battery protection error). 
I question if this is really the case. Regardless, they asked I remove all DC 
and AC voltage from the SI (meaning remove the voltage completely, not just 
turning off the internal DC switch, which still gives the circuit board a 
little power, I used remote battery circuit breakers to do this), wait at least 
15 min, then power it back on. It worked for me, and I am watching to see if 
the problem reoccurs (2 weeks clear so far).

Just another data point that a 15min+ power cycle might help in your case.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Nick 
A Lucchese
Sent: Sunday, March 6, 2022 1:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island Troubleshooting

Kienan,

Sounds like your diagnosis of a blown capacitor is definite proof of a serious 
repair. However, in my years of playing with the Islands I have fairly recently 
observed similar behavior with the screens not powering up while there is 
sufficient DC voltage at it’s terminals. Four times now one of the DC Power 
trailer systems I am responsible for did the same thing but after a full 45 
minutes with the DC breakers completely powered down it then came back on once 
the breakers were closed again. After the first incident I came back with a 
Radian to loan them because I thought it was either a complete failure or due 
to a closed loop communications glitch between the SI’s and the Blue Ion’s 
Namaka however this still happened even if I tried to fool it by just 
programming the SI’s with a VRLA charging profile. After some behind the scenes 
tweaking by Blue Planet’s supportive techs (Jody is the best) the site 
experienced trouble free closed loop operations for about 8 months until a few 
weeks ago when we started getting similar shutdowns. I say similar because I 
was only able to support the customer remotely without being on site but he was 
describing the same exact thing with the screens being blank while the Classic 
controllers were indicating above 51 vdc. I was able to verify through the 
Stellar interface that upon each incident site conditions appeared to be normal 
with very small load and no less than 31% SOC at the least.  This happened 
three days in a row at about the same time of day and once again after letting 
Blue Planet know they were able to update some firmware on their end which so 
far has rewarded the site with trouble-free power once again though we’re only 
about 12 days beyond the incidents at this point.

The other time I observed this was twice on a Multicluster job I installed 
about 16 months ago. Same thing, no lights on the inverters while the batteries 
still had reasonable capacity left to give. I don’t recall if it was just the 
one master cluster or all of them but it appeared to be really bad at first 
thinking I needed to come up with some extra Islands in a hurry but then after 
an extended period with the Island's DC breakers open they eventually powered 
up as if nothing ever happened.

The point is there are definitely some deep settings in those inverters not 
mentioned in the manual where the screens go blank  for undetermined reasons. 
See if an extended off duration works to your advantage before resorting to 
more burdensome efforts. Then as Chris said call Solar Cowboyz and see if you 
can speak with Louis.

Dang ole Islands man. Good luck, Nick



On Mar 5, 2022, at 3:11 PM, Kienan Maxfield 
mailto:maxfieldso...@hotmail.com>> wrote:

Hello all,

I'm troubleshooting an interesting case. It's a DC coupled SMA Sunni Island 
system with two of the 6048 SI's. I think that the both of the SI's are fried, 
and I think I know why, but there's a strange twist so I thought I'd ask if 
anyone here has any insight...

So this is a DC Power system, and whoever was building these at DC power made a 
mistake on the Main wire that connects to the battery, so the connection came 
loose. When I looked at it for my client, I saw that there is an internal 
capacitor in one of the SI's that is blown. I assumed that the loose connection 
cause voltage spikes from the charge controller to damage the inverter. But 
then I repaired the wiring, and everything powered up fine, and the SI system 
was putting out perfect power. Then, two days later, I looked at it again 
because the customer was going to come pick it up, and the inverters were 
apparently dead. I tried resetting them, but it seems like 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery in non cycling use

[Daniel Young]

The main thing you can do when non-cycling is to set the charge voltage a 
little lower than you normally would. 

Check the manufacturer for the recommended full charge voltage (usually 
3.6V/cell) that's 57.6V for a 48V pack. I set my absorb voltage to 57V even to 
begin with. And float is closer to 3.5V/cell or 56V. That constitutes roughly 
90% capacity (check your battery manufacturer spec, it can vary by brand).

Ageing of LFP tends to accelerate at both higher temperatures and higher charge 
voltages. There are some research papers out there testing this in various ways 
for various applications, but the conclusions are usually the same. Keep the 
lithium from getting too hot (I say stay below 30-35C when possible) and do not 
charge them to 100% unless you really need the capacity.

So my common sense tells me to set my absorb and float voltages such that the 
LFP batteries are not regularly going above 90% SOC in backup applications.

Another factor to account for is the BMS's cell balancing feature, you do want 
the float voltage set high enough that the BMS does get triggered to balance 
cells (many BMS's do not balance until the cells are near full, as this is 
where imbalances really start to show up, and it saves energy by not bleeding 
current off the cells constantly). For example, if the battery BMS starts 
balancing when cells are above 3.52V (56.32V for 48V packs), then the float 
voltage needs to be just above this (56.4-56.5) that way the BMS has the 
ability to balance cells regularly. The manufacturer would be the source for 
the cell balancing voltage threshold. If float was set to 55V for example, the 
cells could get relatively out of balance and the BMS would do little to stop 
it, only bleeding off current when a cell gets particularly out of balance with 
a higher voltage than its peers.

Always ask the manufacturer for advice on this first of course.

--

Danny Young
Engineering Team Lead
Solar Energy Solutions
Lexington | Louisville | Bloomington | Cincinnati | Evansville | Indianapolis
513-448-5176 (mobile)
877-312-7456 (Main Office)
da...@sesre.com

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Jay
Sent: Wednesday, February 23, 2022 10:02 AM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery in non cycling use

Hi all the lithium experts. 

Are there any issues with using LFP lithium in non cycling battery backup mode. 
Or specific settings, brands etc that should be considered when designing for 
GTBB, non cycling. 

Thanks

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question

[Daniel Young]

Also using Drakes solution, you bypass the issue with the inverter “voltage 
drop” causing it to go out of spec in high production times (a 5% voltage drop 
would really mean that the inverter would see the grid as being 5% higher than 
it really is when producing at full power, potentially causing a high grid 
voltage fault). You can then allow for more than 1% voltage drop over that 
distance without risking the system shutting down. You change an operational 
requirement constraint into a pure power production vs cost of wire issue. It 
might be that going with smaller wire is less expensive that the extra energy 
you would generate from that 1% better voltage drop.

 

Also you said 11.4kW inverter with 240V 1ph, which makes me think SolarEdge. If 
that’s true then your situation just got a even better. I believe they will 
communicate to optimizers up to 1000’ (I don’t like operating at the edge of a 
systems spec, but might be the best option here). But they operate at the same, 
higher voltage under power producing conditions. That only helps your power 
loss issues. You can run the numbers, but you usually lose about 1/2ish total 
annual energy compared to the calculated %voltage drop on the DC lines. So if 
you have the wire run designed for 5% drop at peak power, you’d really only 
lose roughly 2-3% total energy per year.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of 
drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
Sent: Monday, September 17, 2018 1:50 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question

 

Another option would be to locate the inverters near the grid and run the DC at 
as high a voltage as possible. Have a separate run of wire for each of the 5 
inverters. If you ran the DC at 500 V, an 11.4 kW inverter would only draw 
22.8. A. Use 2/0 AL for a little over 1% VD at full power. 




- Original Message -

From:

"RE-wrenches" mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >

 

To:

"RE-wrenches" mailto:RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >

Cc:

 

Sent:

Mon, 17 Sep 2018 09:42:01 -0700

Subject:

[RE-wrenches] Step-up/Step-down Transformer question



Wrenches,

 

We have a PV array situated about 900' from the POI (240V 1PH). We initially 
spec'd (5) 11.4kW inverters and the combined output would be 238A. The wire 
size required for this current over that distance is cost prohibitive.

 

A solution was to use a single 50kW 3 phase inverter at the array and then 
convert it to 240V... somehow? Is anyone familiar with how to go about doing 
this? My thought was to have a step down transformer at the POI and pull off 
two legs to get 240V. Is this even a thing?

 

The other, more expensive option is to use a step up transformer at the array 
and a step down at the POI to get us a smaller wire size.

 

Thanks for any input.




 

-- 

Loren Ortiz   Commercial PV Designer

 

lo...@cal-solar.com <mailto:lore...@cal-solar.com>   (530) 274-3671

  

 

 

Showroom located at: 149 E Main St. Grass Valley, CA 95945

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

[Daniel Young]

Drake,

 

The best thing to minimize blower power draw will be two fold.

1.  Get the smallest BTU furnace you are allowed to (with and ECM
blower). Since blowers are generally sized at a nominal CFM/BTU of heat
output. (Around 30CFM/ 1000BTU for the usual heat pump or 90+eff furnaces)
2.  Minimize head loss in the duct system. Head loss has an exponential
effect on energy use as a whole (blower motor and fuel efficiency) 

a.  Bigger distribution ducts 
b.  metal duct for corners and turns (i.e use good fittings)
c.  little to no flex duct unless for straight runs

   i.  flex
duct always well supported and pulled tight, little to no slack allowed in a
flex duct job.

d.  Etc. Good read in this article, and the attached presentation
download:
https://www.energyvanguard.com/blog/secret-moving-air-quietly-through-your-d
uct-system 

 

Not knowing the home layout and specs it hard to give specific advise on
that side, but those two items are big drivers on actual power needs for
blowers. But as you said, the furnace is there for insurance costs, not
primary heating.

 

Also, the unvented propane heater in a primary dwelling seems like a bad
idea to me. Is the home expected to be well sealed for air leaks? Blower
door tested, relatively well sealed would be a blower door number of less
than 2-3 ACH50 (air changes per hour @ a 50pascal pressure difference to the
outdoors), 1-1.5 is really good, and passive house is 0.6 and lower? Because
both the fireplace and the unvented heater could be bad news if that's the
case. Something you might want to see if you client is conscious of. (Not
sure how far you are getting involved in the home design Drake.)

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of
Drake
Sent: Friday, August 24, 2018 4:52 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Forced air Furnace

 

A wood stove heats the house, and will be the primary source of heat. An
un-vented propane wall heater is installed and can heat the small, earth
bermed, well insulated structure. A furnace will be a nice supplement, and
will quickly pay for itself in insurance savings. During even a moderately
cloudy day, it will be fine, but will not be used much on batteries. Still,
I'd like as efficient a model as possible. 

If I can find a unit with a 400 W draw, like the one in our on grid house,
that would be adequate. The specifications I've found on the blower motors
are sketchy. I will likely need to order it on line (or take a trip to a
neighboring city), so reading the nameplates might not be so easy. 

Does anyone know how to get accurate data on furnace blower motors? 

Thanks,

Drake 

At 01:59 PM 8/24/2018, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="914ACDD867C6488AACA07365"
Content-Language: en-US

I always try to talk the client into hydronic heating with ECM drive
circulation pumps.  They do make ECM drive blower motors that can be
retrofitted in some furnace systems.  Overall, its just a bad combination
off grid: the worse the weather is the less PV production you have, and this
corresponds to the same time that the furnace is operating 12 hours/ night.
They are either running the generator a bunch, or waking up in the morning
to a cold house with the power off, and dead batteries.  If its an AC
coupled system, they won't even have any PV production the next morning
either.  This is another reason AC coupled is not a great idea, or at least
you need to always have some DC coupled PV as well, but I digress..

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 8/23/18 5:43 PM, Dana wrote:



Drake,
All the conventional units I have amp clamped over the years are pushing
900-900+ watts per hour. I do not recommend them ever & to date I have never
found a lower wattage blower. I would assume that a permanent magnet motor
would fit this suggestion, but I have not found one.
For off grid I recommend: Radiant floor heat first and hot water base board
second long before hot air. Air is a better insulator than a heat transfer
agent.
The new ECM (electronically commutated motors) pump motors are basically at
DC permanent magnet motor power draws [Taco & Grundfoss] these days.
 
Best of luck with this one.
 

Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc. 
C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
<mailto:d...@solarwork.com> 
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.biz
<http://www.solarwork.biz> 
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  
P Please consider the environment before printing this email.
 
 
From: RE-wrenches  <mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org&

Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs

[Daniel Young]

Hey Gary,

 

Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It’s a matter of if the Fire marshal in you 
project area wants to waive or alter the requirements.

 

http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 

 

Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict in 
terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft path on 
one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 18 space is 
allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with a hip roof.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 

 

From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of gary 
easton
Sent: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs

 

Hello Wrenches,

What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am having inspectors 
vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing the array 
down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the ridge.


 

-- 

Gary Easton
Appalachian Renewable Power

Stewart, Ohio 45778
NABCEP Certified Solar PV   
 
T: 740-277-8498

 www.arp-solar.com <http://www.arp-solar.com> 

 


“First they ignore you. Then they laugh at you. Then they fight you. Then you 
win.”


~Ghandi

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] rain guard

[Daniel Young]

Hey Nik,

 

Consider these points with your client:

1.  Your racking system most likely has gaps between rows of modules, so 
most/all of the rain that hits modules higher up on the roof will fall through 
that gap and will run on the roof as normal. Only the lowest row of modules 
will collect rain that could “jump the gap”. The 100yr worst rainfall rate in 
Vermont (listed as in Bratteboro) is 2.7”/hr. The quick math has that as 31 
gallons/hr for a standard 60cell module. Which is 0.5gpm. So if they wanted to 
test this, they should be able to let a garden hose lose on a single solar 
module (usually far, far more than 0.5gpm, a short piece of garden hose can put 
out more than 15GPM actually, 30 times the 100yr rainfall rate) and see if that 
is enough water to jump the gap (be sure to face the hose uphill so the water 
has a chance to spread laterally and also not be forced off the module edge at 
an artificially high speed from the water pressure). My bet is that it will 
not. And you most likely just tested at 3-5times the 100yr storm level of 
rainfall in your area.
2.  If the client is not satisfied with the above. Depending on your 
racking system, some racks offer skirts. The skirts usually have a curve down 
to the roof from the module edge, the curve would direct the water down to the 
roof from the bottom row of modules via surface tension. The water layer will 
stick to the skirt and follow it down, even if inertia would normally force the 
water to arc over the gutter. You see that phenomena at water parks sometimes 
where the water slide has a little hump to give the tube riders a bit of air 
time, but the water stays stuck as a film to the water slide itself. Surface 
tension at work.

 

Not to add to your worries, but in Vermont, I’d be more worried of ice sheeting 
on the bottom row of modules and bypassing the gutter, to fall of pedestrians 
or people entering the house if your gutters overhung the entrance. But you get 
a lot of snow in Vermont, so houses there may designed that particular hazard 
out of most home construction.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

 

From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of Nik 
Ponzio, Building Energy
Sent: Monday, April 30, 2018 8:32 AM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] rain guard

 

We have a roofmount PV array that is very close to the run gutter. The customer 
is concerned that the runoff during heavy rain will overshoot the gutter. So 
I'm looking for a product that will mount at the lower edge of the array and 
slow down the rain water. I looked that Alpine SnowGuards but they all have a 
small gap between top of solar module and bottom of the snow rail. 

 

Any suggestions?

 




--
Nik Ponzio
Building Energy
1570 South Brownell Road
Williston, VT 05495
802-859-3384 ext.115
http://www.BuildingEnergyVT.com

 

 

 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[Daniel Young]

Drake,

 

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? They
make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help recover
the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

 

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid, then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an all-electric
off-grid building.)

 

The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task, OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.

 

Here are two brand names that I know of.

Vertical mount: renewability

Horizontal mount: ecodrain

 

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just though
it may be worth consideration.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org> On Behalf Of
Drake
Sent: Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

 

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the plumbing
is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I think
we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake 



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =Â  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person per
day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person

cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume =
.86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day

convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable. 

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They
approached it another way with assuming run times.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active
<https://www.google.com/search?safe=active=hp=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4
DA=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption=electric+water+heater+u
se+annually_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.4
51.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1
j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI>
=hp=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA=electric+water+heater+use+annual+cons
umption=electric+water+heater+use+annually_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l
3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-
ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI 


Chris




On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:



Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water
temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower temp. Â
My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the first 2
people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly
with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs
3 showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to 19% of the
total household energy load for the year.  Also, I would recommend the air
source heat pump water heaters if you have significant humidity or an on
demand unit.  Water tanks are typically under insulated and can lose
2kWh/day in standby losses.
 
Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Spirit Solar Inc.
(413) 734-1456
 
 
 
From: Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
 
You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 100
or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and showers are
typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator online to calculate how
many Btus are required to raise water temp for your delta per gallon.
Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you should be good. 

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, < drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
<mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org> > wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for electric
water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of power that will be
used by an all electric duplex, and the water heater amount seems high. The
current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be
consumed. With the two units, that would

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Daniel Young]

These issues are not lost on me for sure. I have to plan out a new
protective setup to try to ensure that if the temperatures drop and the
battery bank hits LVD, that the array cannot just charge the battery back up
on it's own. Possibly some sort of temperature dependent relay or shunt trip
breaker on the battery bank to ensure that below 35F the battery must be
manually warmed to resume operation, or the system waits until the battery
warms on it's own before allowing the CC's or even a generator to charge
them.

My understanding is that the lithium's can go below freezing easily, but
they just cannot be charged when below freezing. They can sit down to -5F if
not being charged, they can even be under discharge down to that in some
cases. But adding controls to allow discharge, but not charge is likely a
bit too much, best to just isolate the battery bank if below 32-35F in my
opinion, which is what I plan to try to accomplish.

Ideally someone is there to watch the batteries, but that simply is not an
option. And the client is not likely to want a new AGM bank. But they will
have to decide between the pro's and con's. All I can do is give them the
info, and the choice.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2018 1:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

The LG RESU series will trip it's breaker at around 10% Soc. It will require
a human unless the LVD on the inverter is set higher than the battery. Yes
Sir it is our responsibility to educate our users or have plane tickets (:

Will be installing the Discover battery soon into Xanbus.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Hi Drake,
>
> I agree. Li-ion batteries, like lead batteries, should always have a 
> human overseer. This is a difficult reality to convey in our 
> set-it-forget it, automated world.
>
> One function of a Li-ion battery EMS or BMS is to prevent over discharge.
> Once any battery cell reaches the lower limit, the battery will turn off.
> For many systems, once charge current is again detected, the battery 
> will turn on. Some will not and require a user to turn the battery 
> back on. You can also install an external LVD device to stop power use at
a higher SoC.
>
> As wrenches, its our responsibility to know our product and educate 
> the customer. Too often, this does not happen.
>
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2018, at 7:11 AM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:
>
> Snow on the array could be a very big problem with the heater load, 
> inverter idle current and anything else that might be left on. 
> Extended periods of heavy clouds can reduce power generation to be 
> less than system's internal losses. It seems like a pretty big gamble 
> to leave an expensive battery bank unattended, that can not go below 
> freezing, and is dependent on array power to prevent freezing.
>
> If AGMs survive in this application, it might be better to stay with 
> this technology.
>
>
> - Original Message -
> From: offgridso...@sti.net "RE-wrenches"
> <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> To:"RE-wrenches" <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
> Cc:
> Sent:Mon, 26 Feb 2018 10:36:29 -0800 (PST)
> Subject:Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank
>
>
> Hello Daniel,
>
> I will give this some thought. What lithium make? The ones I have 
> looked at log the temperature for warranty so that might negate the value
a bit.
> The high temp is just as bad in your case here.
>
> Since this has been working well I am assuming snow on the panels is 
> not an issue?
>
> Building a battery box that was cooled (small fan) from conditioned 
> space is what I have done. The wall between the garage and living 
> space is perfect. This won't help when the house is cold (unattended) 
> much. It won't help if the house is allowed to get hot either.
>
> Some of the Lion batteries are actually listed for living space. The 
> LG is. I don't do that with mine though. Hmmm
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
>> Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.
>>
>>
>>
>> The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now 
>> considering changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium 
&

Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Daniel Young]

Thanks Larry, I figured you would have some experience in this, especially 
given your RV retrofit experience. This is generally what I had thought would 
be the case. I also was browsing that exact controller when your post came in  

 

Good to have my thoughts confirmed on heat generation, that should make this 
setup feasible.

 

I am going to look for a dual mode controller or 2 controllers for both heating 
and cooling, a heating mode for the heating pad, then a cooling mode 
controlling a small vent fan in the battery box to deal with what little heat 
is generated. The controller you linked to operates such that it has a central 
temperature setting maybe 65F, and once either heating or cooling is triggered, 
the respective load will run until the central temperature setting has been hit 
(i.e triggered the heater at 40F but the heater runs till the battery is at 
65F). I’d like to operate in two separate 5-10degree windows, essentially 
keeping the batteries between 40-45F and 90-95F.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Monday, February 26, 2018 12:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

 

Hi Daniel,

 

Charging a Li battery below freezing can damage the battery very quickly. Low 
current, C.05 rate, can be used until cell temperature is above freezing but 
that can be hard to setup and control. You can store or discharge most Li 
batteries down to about -5°F. 

 

Unless you are using very high current, 1C or more, for long times, the battery 
temp. will rise very little. Same applies to charging, keeping the rate low 
will not cause a heat issue. 

 

Your best option is build a battery box, insulate and heat it. Very simple with 
DC silicone heaters. A well insulated box is the key to low power consumption. 
Make the box so you can vent for summer use.

 

Silicone heaters: https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40 
<https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0>
 
&_trksid=p2057872.m570.l1313.TR0.TRC6.A0.H0.XSilicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+.TRS5&_nkw=Silicone+Heater+Flexible+Pad+&_sacat=0

 

Temp controller: 
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-STC-1000-All-Purpose-Temperature-Controller-Thermostat-With-Sensor-D/112145401355?hash=item1a1c63060b:m:mpDAMY9SK0sPRVsidEQ682w


Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems

 

 

 

On Feb 26, 2018, at 9:56 AM, Daniel Young <dyo...@dovetailsolar.com 
<mailto:dyo...@dovetailsolar.com> > wrote:

 

Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.

 

The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering changing 
out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the next winter. 
I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium options for 2+yrs 
now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank into a system.

 

The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied 
during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but 
attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers 
except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system. As 
such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes staying 
there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM’s, within reason. The 
battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where the site 
has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely produce more 
heat during a charge than lithium’s, and they have significantly more thermal 
mass to ride through the really cold nights.

 

Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during 
storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to 
provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system that 
is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating pad like 
is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed place to lay 
down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the battery bank. I would 
of course need to try to account for the extra load in the battery bank sizing. 
They array is more than is needed right now so I do not worry about it’s 
ability to compensate when the sun is shining.

 

In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated 
enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting too 
hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But with the 
lower internal resistance of the lithium’s, maybe this is less likely to be an 
issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience

[RE-wrenches] heating a lithium battery bank

[Daniel Young]

Hello Wrenches, here is a fun one for you all.

 

The client you all helped me with earlier this year is now considering
changing out their AGM off grid bank with a lithium battery bank before the
next winter. I looked into this, as we have been eying the various lithium
options for 2+yrs now, but not bit the bullet and really designed a bank
into a system.

 

The main issue I am trying to consider is this. The cabin is not occupied
during most of the winter, and the batteries are in the unconditioned, but
attached, garage. They drain the plumbing system and shut off all breakers
except the ones that power the internet, chest freezer, and security system.
As such, the battery bank has routinely gotten below freezing, sometimes
staying there for 1-2 weeks. This is not an issue with AGM's, within reason.
The battery bank has never gotten below 20F over the last 2 winters, where
the site has seen below zero temps for brief periods. But the AGMs likely
produce more heat during a charge than lithium's, and they have
significantly more thermal mass to ride through the really cold nights.

 

Lithium batteries, to the best of my knowledge, can be below freezing during
storage. But to safely charge, they must be above 32F. So the thought was to
provide an insulated battery box, and design in some small heating system
that is set to 40-45F. The first thought was a low power fiberglass heating
pad like is sometimes used for livestock to give them a slightly warmed
place to lay down. Then tie that to a thermostat with a sensor on the
battery bank. I would of course need to try to account for the extra load in
the battery bank sizing. They array is more than is needed right now so I do
not worry about it's ability to compensate when the sun is shining.

 

In theory this could be ok, but I worry about the summer. Will the insulated
enclosure cause the opposite issue during the summer, the batteries getting
too hot? I have seen the AGM bank go to 110F at one point in Aug 2016. But
with the lower internal resistance of the lithium's, maybe this is less
likely to be an issue. Do any of you wrenches have any experience with this
unconditioned setup?

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

[Daniel Young]

Dave,

Do you have a document that indicates the LG Chem is not warrantied when in
off-grid use? I've been looking for this exact document with no luck. Also
you stated the 48V is not covered, would that also mean the 400V versions is
also not covered?

I have a client that is trying to specify components for an off grid system,
because his online research says that those are the products he wants. Never
a good sign, but we're used to it here with a lot of retired professors, you
just have to take some time to show them your reasons for not doing what
they want and they usually come around.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Monday, February 19, 2018 2:46 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Li+ Systems Puerto Rico

LG has decided not to allow their 48V batteries to be used for offgrid.
The 400V LG and Solar edge is too small to be useful for offgrid in my
opinion and no warranty.

I would add Discover battery to your LFP list. They communicate by canbus
and Xanbus to Schneider XW and CSW gear.

It is too bad about LG (or Tesla) as they were light and not too expensive
Lithium type NMC chemistry.

The other LFP Chemistry is much heavier and around $1,000 a usable KWH, or
4 times flooded LA. A hard sell at this time.

I still am running the LG RESU10 XW power system and I attached a screen
shot of how nice the Engineers at Schneider did making a simple power
display with all the Offgrid data. I left out the Generator display as we do
not need one here in the California Sierras.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Greetings Wrenches;
>
> We are designing several systems for Puerto Rico, and while these will 
> eventually could be grid tied once the grid returns, they will need to 
> operate reliably in off grid mode possibly for a year or more.  What 
> is everyone's experiences with the Storedge and LG setup?  I've 
> worked with the regular Solaredge GT system and was quite impressed, 
> but I've heard the Storedge is not a good off grid option.  What are 
> the issues, and has anyone used the Storedge in longer term outages?
>
> Right now we are designing some smaller systems that will use Magnum 
> inverters with 24v and 48 v Li+ batteries from other manufacturers, 
> like Simpliphi and LiFe Blue. ( No GT, Backup only)  These are lower 
> cost and allow us to use more traditional off grid designs, but also 
> have limited charge and discharge current.  In order to make Li+ cost 
> effective, we have had to reduce the storage size in half compared to 
> lead acid.  We feel this is justifiable considering Li+'s ability to 
> be discharged to 100%, its voltage stability, and its higher efficiency.
>
> All feed back is welcome, as we venture into less well charted 
> territory.  We just don't want to set up systems that are going to 
> not be functional in 5 to 8 years because of inferior AGM lead acid 
> batteries.  We use HUP batteries for most larger off grid systems, 
> but these are not feasible because of their size and maintenance
requirements.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Ray Walters
>
> Remote Solar
>
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text 209 813 0060

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

[Daniel Young]

Thanks for all the input. I like the "new battery Fund" idea, we might have to 
implement something like that. Certainly helps incentivize the client to make 
every watt count.

I agree the batteries are on their way out the door, but not quite there yet. 
After 3yrs where they were getting nearly daily cycling due to the extra loads 
the client installed. They are getting close to the expected 1,000Cycle life 
@50% DOD. We're going to work with them to try to extend the life until the end 
of the summer/fall next year, then look at the best battery option at that time 
for their situation.

This is about to branch off into a subject for another thread, so I think I'll 
start a new one for the purpose of battery options for an unheated garage in a 
mixed hot/cold climate.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

www.dovetailsolar.com
Ph: 740-274-0139

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of frenergy
Sent: Wednesday, January 17, 2018 11:47 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

Dave,

 Next to the invoice for the cost of the battery (and new cables 
and labor and freight of course), post a large envelope next to
it:  "NEXT BATTERY SAVINGS ACCOUNT, If you don't pay attention and ruin your 
battery in 2 years, insert $35/week.  If you care for your battery like a 
newborn baby, insert $5/week" .applicable for 8, L-16's.

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

[Daniel Young]

Agreed Dave, there are more loads than the original design accounted for. The 
client understands this so at least we're not in hot water. We're just trying 
to help them figure out options.

As for the converters, this was the idea before the client told us about the 
freezer being left on while they were away. It was originally planned that the 
freezer and fridge were only to be used while they were on site. The converters 
were only the plan when we thought we were dealing with 4-5 different DC loads, 
and assuming 2 different DC voltages being needed. The situation changed since 
the original post.

The site does have a flexnet-DC, this is what I'm using for my analysis of the 
loads on an ongoing basis. I've been using the information coming from the 2 
shunts used in the system, as my experience has been that they are the most 
accurate part of the system viewable from Optics-RE.

As for concords, they don't appear to be very different from the cut sheet 
standpoint. Similar cycle life, similar capacity vs temperature. But they are 
both AGM. I know concord is a big name in the AGM space as they supply to the 
D.O.D. but our local suppliers do not carry them. I'd be open to others 
opinions on the different brand options. Most AGM system we put in are just 
floating for the 1-2 times a year the power goes out for suburban and 
semi-rural clients. This off grid job went AGM due to the expected long 
absences and unconditioned battery location (expected cold temps while possibly 
at a lower SOC). The client really did not want to do the standard flooded 
battery maintenance.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

www.dovetailsolar.com
Ph: 740-274-0139

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 3:34 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

Seems to me that you are on the edge for that size battery in winter. If the 
inverter is going to be on, converters are kind of nutty to me. I could see 
having one 24V for the freezer but... I only use Concorde AGM's when I have to. 
Is there an AH counter or Batt Mon?
Good Luck

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

> Answers to questions:
>
>
>
> The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 
> 390AH @48V nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly 
> raised internal resistance when tested under a load then under charge. 
> There is another one showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 
> 30A draw it is only 0.12V lower than the highest battery in the mix, 
> and 0.05V from the average battery voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 
> 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 1500W space heater as a 
> constant load during the test.
>
>
>
> There are more loads than just networking and security that the client 
> just recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. 
> There is a satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, 
> simplisafe security system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to 
> serve the less reliable security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn 
> light. I have already talked to them about thinking hard on what items 
> can be removed for the winter at least (DVR is going away, and one of 
> the camera systems too, likely the one requiring the wifi range 
> extenders). All other seasons the system is fine.
>
>
>
> As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter 
> for any unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would 
> likely abandon that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But 
> thank you to all that provided guidance there. The meanwell units 
> seemed to have the right specs to do the job if we go that route. We 
> would also install them using a LVD of some sort, set somewhere above 
> the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the system. We would 
> also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by doing 
> this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback.
>
>
>
> With Regards,
>
>
>
> Daniel Young,
>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
>
>
>
> Lead Systems Designer for:
>
>
>
>  <http://www.dovetailsolar.com/> www.dovetailsolar.com
>
> Ph: 740-274-0139
>
>
>
> We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a 
> few in our photo gallery:
> <http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+el
> ectric> 
> http://www.dovetailsolar

Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

[Daniel Young]

Answers to questions:

 

The batteries are Discover EVL16A-A batteries. A single string of 8: 390AH @48V 
nominal. We had one fail last year, showing a significantly raised internal 
resistance when tested under a load then under charge. There is another one 
showing signs of weakness, but currently under a 30A draw it is only 0.12V 
lower than the highest battery in the mix, and 0.05V from the average battery 
voltage. Readings were: 6.0, 5.88, 6.0, 5.93, 5.92, 5.91, 5.93, 5.94 using a 
1500W space heater as a constant load during the test.

 

There are more loads than just networking and security that the client just 
recently disclosed. Gotta love the added loads to the design. There is a 
satellite DVR, 2x4 camera webcam systems, cell modem, simplisafe security 
system, chest freezer, 4 wifi range extenders to serve the less reliable 
security camera system, and 26W LED dusk-dawn light. I have already talked to 
them about thinking hard on what items can be removed for the winter at least 
(DVR is going away, and one of the camera systems too, likely the one requiring 
the wifi range extenders). All other seasons the system is fine.

 

As for the DC converter(s) we would get a voltage specific converter for any 
unique voltages, depending on the # of unique items, we would likely abandon 
that approach if it got to bee too complicated. But thank you to all that 
provided guidance there. The meanwell units seemed to have the right specs to 
do the job if we go that route. We would also install them using a LVD of some 
sort, set somewhere above the standard low voltage cutoff of the rest of the 
system. We would also only go this route if all AC loads could be removed by 
doing this, allowing us to remove the 36w idle draw of the Outback.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

Lead Systems Designer for:



 <http://www.dovetailsolar.com/> www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our 
photo gallery:   
<http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric> 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It may 
contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from 
disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not 
disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information 
contained in the message.  If you have received this message in error, please 
reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any 
attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of 
criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Starlight Solar Power Systems
Sent: Tuesday, January 16, 2018 11:08 AM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

 

I too would like to know the make and model of batteries that are loosing 
capacity. In the past 5 years we have experienced abnormally high failures from 
2 brands. 

 

Larry

On Jan 15, 2018, at 2:00 PM, Jay <jay.pe...@gmail.com 
<mailto:jay.pe...@gmail.com> > wrote:

 

Can you tell us:

 

Battery make,model and size?

 

Jay

Peltz power. 


On Jan 15, 2018, at 12:32 PM, Daniel Young < <mailto:dyo...@dovetailsolar.com> 
dyo...@dovetailsolar.com> wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

 

I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The 
system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is 
loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering more 
often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator triggering if 
possible.

 

The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which 
further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security system 
with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows Optics-RE 
access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is pulling a 
consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and security 
equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC.

 

I’d like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by taking 
the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank (the loads 
are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent quality DC_DC 
converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and the efficiency of 
the typical wall-wart, I’d expect the running loads to be closer to 80-100w 
rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then take the inverter into 
search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the tare losses there, and also 
to t

[RE-wrenches] Off grid DC Loads: DC Converter

[Daniel Young]

Hello Wrenches,

 

I have a client that is running into an issue with his off grid system. The
system is 3yrs old and they are starting to notice their AGM battery bank is
loosing capacity, in reality they are noticing the generator is triggering
more often. They want to try to lower the frequency of the generator
triggering if possible.

 

The system is not occupied during much of the winter (unconditioned, which
further hurts the battery bank capacity), but the client has a security
system with a cell modem installed and always on. This fortunately allows
Optics-RE access, but unfortunately based on the FNDC shunt readings, is
pulling a consistent 150w from the battery bank. Currently the network and
security equipment is powered from standard wall-warts running on AC.

 

I'd like to help the client extend the time between generator cycles by
taking the network loads and powering them directly from the battery bank
(the loads are all 12Vdc). Does anyone have any recommendations for a decent
quality DC_DC converter that would be applicable? Given inverter losses and
the efficiency of the typical wall-wart, I'd expect the running loads to be
closer to 80-100w rather than the 150w we see now. The intent is to then
take the inverter into search mode, or even switch it off, to remove the
tare losses there, and also to take all the wasted power from the standard
wall-warts and go to a single, more efficient dc power supply.

 

Any recommendations on a good DC_DC converter are appreciated.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Dovetail Solar and Wind

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum entrance wire.

[Daniel Young]

Well, I don’t think anyone on this list is a network specialist, which is what 
I would consider an expert…. But…

 

Running cat5 (really any data cable) parallel to a power line (especially and 
AC line) is listed as a bad move in almost every installation guide I have ever 
seen. Data and power are supposed to cross paths in a perpendicular fashion 
whenever they get “close” to each other. If the clients wants to pay for a 
letter from a network specialist, just so they can spend more money putting the 
right stuff in, I would just have that done. But everything I’ve ever learned 
about this says that power running in the same conduit as communications is a 
cardinal sin (they run parallel, and as close as is physically possible while 
in the same conduit). To borrow a phrase from Joe Lstiburek “That’s what we 
call a Barry Bonds problem…..stupid on steroids”.

 

The bare minimum is to make sure the cable is shielded, and the bleed wire is 
terminated at a grounding point at one end only. This is the only way there is 
a prayer for Ethernet signals to make the 120’ journey with any reliability. 
The more noise in the line, the slower the connection, as more and more packets 
will get rejected and have to be re-sent until they make it through without too 
much distortion, at some point the noise will prevent any data packets from 
making it from A to B and you need to break out the string and Dixie cups.

 

The standard phone line may function, but it might sound like you’re talking to 
one of the adults from Charley Brown.

 

As for the inverter signal…. I bet that would work if you use a solid state 
relay that requires just a few milliamps to trigger, even 28AWG cat 5 wire can 
handle that I bet. When we use a shielded cat 5 to transmit MODBUS and a small 
amount of signal power, we usually use two pairs of wire and parallel them just 
to give more copper for the amps to go through. You just make sure you run the 
+ using the striped wires from both sets, and the - on the solid wire from both 
sets (or vise versa) so that your power is truly running in twisted pairs still 
and so it will not create any added noise in the cabling.

 

When a client wants to do something like this with us and we cannot convince 
them it’s a bad idea, we simply put it in writing that any issues resulting 
from “XYZ” will not be covered by our warranty, as it was done counter to 
industry best practices, and against our advise.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of John Blittersdorf
Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 9:26 AM
To: RE-wrenches <RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Cat 5 cable in 240 AC power conduit with #2 alum 
entrance wire.

 

Wrenches,

  I have a customer who has pulled a cat 5 cable through his power conduit (2" 
PVC) to a new barn for about 120' and wants to use it for ethernet and 
telephone.  Wants me to use a pair if wires in the cable to trigger a relay to 
disconnect a direct grid tie inverter (AC Coupling) when batteries are full on 
his double GVFX3648 backup system   He wants it in writing from experts that it 
is not a good idea.  Has anyone done this and had good luck with it or have 
opinions?

 

John Blittersdorf

 

formerly owner of Central Vermont Solar & Wind

now working for the new owner Rob Stubbins Solar 

(I get a regular paycheck and (usually) regular hours. 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter

[Daniel Young]

I'm with Matt in terms of Design. I use 1.2-1.35 as a general rule. With
current inverter sizes, you almost always can get a good fit within this
range.

Climate plays a big role on this. As do the costs of your materials and
labor. What we use as guidance is this:

[If I save 5% on a systems cost by going with a smaller inverter, and the
"clipping" losses are only 2% of my yearly energy, then the tradeoff is
worth it. I produce more kWh for the dollars spent.]

The above is a simplistic view not using real numbers (don't have time right
now to run costs on different options in you climate :) ) You can also think
about how the inverter life is affected by operating closer to its limits
for a longer amount of time each year, but that is a hard variable to
quantify.

I ran a set of simulations just for kicks on what I believe to be one of
your Jobs Kirk. @ cypress semiconductor. Hopefully to get a better idea of
what these DC:AC ratios mean in your climate.

I put 6.16kW DC of Solar modules on the roof @15degrees (22 x 280W modules).
I ran the simulation with a SB4000TLUS-22, a SB5000TLUS-22, and
SB6000TLUS-22. And I got 3.8%, 0.3%, and 0.0% clipping losses respectively.

Based on the above, my gut says that the 5kW is certainly worth it. And even
the 4k inverter might, but I'm not comfortable going to a 1.5:1 DC:AC ratio
for so many other reasons.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Matt Partymiller
Sent: Wednesday, July 13, 2016 4:16 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] array overloading of an inverter

Kirk,

I would recommend you consider using a tool like PVsyst or Helioscope to
model DC:AC ratios.  A quick modeling of roughly 200 kW on three Solectria
50 kW inverters shows about 1.3% clipping here.

It then comes down to analysis of your costs for additional modules, dc
wiring, and inverters.

Admittedly I sit on the opposite side of the fence.  I try to provide at
least a 1.2 ratio to minimize cost per kWh.  I am not aware of any large
scale studies comparing PVsyst or Helioscope clipping projections to real
world performance.  I can tell you that our arrays with monitoring and a
~1.2 DC:AC ratio perform as well as our older 1:1 systems.  Not that I use
Enphase often but they have some research/whitepapers on the topic since
their micros tend to undershoot 60 cell module power ratings.

Good luck!


Matt

Matthew Partymiller
Solar Energy Solutions LLC
(877) 312-7456
m...@solar-energy-solutions.com


On Wed, July 13, 2016 3:02 pm, Kirk Herander wrote:
> Hello folks,
>
>
> I am composing a response to a question a potential customer asked me. 
> It  seems a competitor is trying to talk him into a 20% larger KW 
> array than the inverter AC max output rating is. The idea of course is 
> to generate more power on either side of peak output, but at a cost I 
> don't feel is justified. My opinion of this particular big-box 
> installer I will keep to  myself. My response to the customer, trying to
keep it simple:
>
>
>
> "On the DC array input side, most inverters do allow an overload factor.
> For
> instance, a 10kw AC inverter may allow for 12 kw of DC array as an input.
> Whether or not this is a good idea boils down to economics and 
> technical reasons.
>
> On a sunny day, the inverter generates power as a typical bell curve.
> Power
> output rises in the morning, peaks at noon, declines in the afternoon. 
> In my example, the inverter can't output more than 10 kw AC. What 
> overloading the input will do will widen the bell curve, i.e. 
> generating more power in the morning and afternoon, BUT clipping the 
> peak at 10kw on either side of noon. So there is power to be gained in 
> morning and afternoon, but peak power is lost(if conditions allow the 
> peak output to be reached), since the 12 kw array can never be converted
to more than 10 kw of AC power.
> Depending upon
> time of year(ambient / cell temperature) and weather conditions, the 
> peak may be clipped at 10 kw for several hours a day. So you are both 
> gaining and losing power using this method. And typically the 
> inverters are only overloaded in this manner on large-scale farms 
> where the economics are favorable.
>
> In your case, if you could actually put 200kw of DC array into 150 Kw 
> of inverter, the economics would never justify it. That extra 50 kw of 
> array would cost you $100k of more, and the dollar payback for the 
> power that extra 50Kw would generate will take 2 - 3x the time that 
> the array size does that stays inside the output limit of the 
> inverters. This is why I'm not a big fan of dramatically overloading 
> the inverters, if at all,  in your ca

Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

[Daniel Young]

I have a seen playing in my head of a factory floor..(maybe a conference
office)

 

"Just put the same alternator on all of 'em! The savings will cover the
average failure rate. Who uses a generator at its full rating anyway eh?"

 

Who knows the real story behind it, but I just wonder if that stuff really
happens.

 

Careful changing out to larger wire if you go that route, the smaller wire
that you splice onto will get just as hot and so the splice and an inch or
two of the larger wire next to the splice will get almost as hot too, which
means you may scorch some insulation at that splice.

 

Good Luck,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Kevin Pegg
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 2:40 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

 

Hi Daniel, 

 

Appreciate your thoughts on this. 

 

- This wire is contained inside 2" flexible metallic conduit, approx. 3'
long from the alternator to the external breaker. Some of it is in free air,
but most is contained within the conduit. 

- the main breaker is a 100% rated 175A. 

- This is an industrial generator is rated for continual operation at full
load, and my expectations is all the wiring in that unit is suited to that.
Will the site actually draw that? It is entirely possible during heavy loads
& concurrent battery charging that it could well be running at max load for
hrs at a time. 

 

The plastic bushing is easy to remedy, as is the ground lug. 

 

The wire is where I am not sure what to do. Everything I am hearing tells me
that the #4 wire is undersized. So there is a dilemma. If I replace the
wires myself then I believe I have voided the UL certification. But think
have made a safer engine for my client. At the end of the day, it will be me
who the client is calling if there is an issue. 

 

Just for kicks I opened up a couple 25 kW gens and factory wiring was either
# 2 or # 4 for this same purpose. Hmm. 

 

Kevin

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Young
Sent: May-25-16 7:24 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches' <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

 

Kevin,

 

Based on what the engineer said, I think you both make valid points.

 

On the 4AWG wire: 

 

Type Z wire (150 C insulation) is rated for 190A based on 2014NEC table
310.15(B)(19). It's rated for 120A when in conduit. So is this wire where
you might call it in conduit or free air? I imagine the inside of a
generator enclosure is somewhere in the middle. Also I assume this is Z type
or similar based on the response stating 150 F (I know he meant C) wiring is
used.

 

Is this on a 175A breaker? If so then it should only pull 140A continuous
(maybe it's a 100% rated breaker?). And that really would not be great for a
generator. Usually we only design for a maximum of 80% loading on a
generator depending on elevation and a few other de-rate factors. In reality
do you expect more than 120A to be a true "continuous" load on this unit. I
don't know the answer, just worth thinking about.

 

Plastic bushings:

 

I sure would want them in a vibrating machine like a generator, but if UL
does not force them to, don't expect them to include it. (Capitalism at
work). You might be able to use an electricians trick where you cut a PVC
bushing and slip it over the existing wire, then you can thread it in the
end of the fitting and it is 95% as good as a normally installed bushing.. I
would not do it on a new install, but it's a useful trick when you walk up
on existing mistakes.

 

Lug:

 

You could continuity test it to see if it's a good connection, otherwise
that strikes me as no good either. Just another cost saving step for the
manu at the clients expense in my opinion. It'll work fine for now, but not
likely in 5-10yrs as corrosion sets in. I'd just throw a star washer
underneath if possible, but it sounds like the stud is not long enough.

 

So there is a little bitta' code and a lotta' opinion.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Kevin Pegg
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 6:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches <re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> >
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator factory wiring issues

 

Wrenches, 

 

Recently, we took delivery of a 40 kW LPG generator made by Gillette. 

 

Inspecting the factory wiring of the unit, I had some concerns which are
outlined in detail below, with an engineer's response inline. The concerns
are using #4 wire to pull 175A; no plastic bushings on m

Re: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience?

[Daniel Young]

I can’t vouch specifically for the Thai modules, but we also like SW a lot. 
They used to have more flimsy frames (30mm only I think, which did not allow 
them to be used for some racking) The new line has thicker 33mm box frames that 
allow them to go most places, using most racking systems with our lower snow 
loads (relative to AK at least).

 

I’d say though, all things being equal, in Alaska I’d be reluctant to use a 
72cell module due to the extreme snow loads, or if I did, I imagine I’d use a 
3-rail mounting system. Usually the 72cell modules have a slightly lower load 
rating due to their larger size using the same frame thickness. Solarworld 
lists the allowable loads (-loads for wind, + loads for snow plus wind) using 
several different mounting arrangements, I’d at least check that out using your 
knowledge of local snow loads. There are stronger framed 72cell modules out 
there that’s for sure (Suniva, Trina, Canadian Solar, I’m sure there are more).

 

Just curious, 8kW of PV, and a 10kW inverter? Are you planning on future 
expansion? If not, we usually would use a SE7600US on that size and then the 
client has the option to add batteries in the future, as the SE7600 is the only 
inverter they currently plan to make compatible with the Tesla Power Wall, and 
other similar battery systems.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Greg
Sent: Monday, February 22, 2016 2:30 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SW 325 modules - experience?

 

Esteemed Wrenches,

Looking at installing an 8 kW system with Solarworld SW325 monos.  Made in 
Thailand.  I like Solarworld but no experience with their off shore 
manufacturing or with anything this large.   Main concern is quality and 
ruggedness of the frame.  Grateful for any feedback from someone who's 
installed them.  Pros/cons.

Would be using 10kW SolarEdge inverter and the 400 Watt maximizers.

Thanks!

Greg Egan
Remote Power Inc.
Fairbanks, AK

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures

[Daniel Young]

We’ve had a similar experience as Carl has on this. We have 929 kW of SE up and 
running (mix of commercial and residential, so roughly 2000 actual optimizers) 
with only a handful of DOA’s or infant mortalities (total of maybe 10-15 so 
far). Service is reimbursed just like you say (does not truly cover the cost, 
unless the job is next door). But it has not happened enough, or in any sort of 
pattern for us to have gotten riled up about it so far.

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Carl Adams
Sent: Friday, January 08, 2016 12:17 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar Edge Optimizer failures

 

Lena,

 

We've been installing the Solar Edge product for a few years now and are 
experiencing good reliability.  I think we have had 2 optimizers which were DOA 
from the factory.  One was completely dead the other had a 25% reduced output.  
No problems with warranty replacements.  

 

With Regards

Carl Adams, SunRock Solar

 

On Fri, Jan 8, 2016 at 12:07 PM, Lena Wilensky <l...@nunatakenergy.com> wrote:

We've had a strange set of recurring failures from one Solaredge install.  It's 
a straightforward 5kw system with 20 x REC 255W modules and P300-5 SE 
optimizers.  

 

System was commissioned in 11/2014 and ran fine for about 6mo.  At that time 
one optimizer failed - gave module short circuit voltage on the optimizer 
output when disconnected from the rest of the array.  Nothing visibly wrong.  
Rest of the array worked fine.

 

About 3mo later (this past august), 2 more optimizers failed.  We gave 
Solaredge an earful, but they were only willing to send replacements for the 2 
newly failed units and 2 spare optimizers for future failures.  Same failure 
apparently with high output voltage from the optimizer when disconnected from 
the array.  They said they had never heard of this happening multiple times and 
would do an optimizer autopsy.

 

We just had another one fail 2 weeks ago.  They apparently tested the 2 failed 
ones from august and found no water intrusion on the optimizer or connectors.  
This is all the testing they can do in the US for these potted units.  They 
recently sent the failed units to Israel to test them, but don't expect results 
for at least 6mo or more.  Solaredge claims they've never seen anything like 
this and so far they have refused to send replacements for the rest of the 
"good" optimizers in the array claiming that the optimizers may not be the 
issue.  Really?

 

Anyone heard of or seen any "batch" failures of these optimizers?  Or have a 
good contact at Solaredge?  I'm about ready to swap in an SMA inverter at this 
point, and stay away from module level anything from now on.  We're going to 
have to triple our prices to pay for all this warranty work, as Solaredge only 
gives $25/optimizer and $100/incident to "help" with labor costs.

 

Thanks for any insight


Lena Wilensky
  
<http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/t/52fd4d40e4b0c0844a0eb2de/1393270590052/?format=1500w>
 
www.nunatakenergy.com
970-349-3432
NABCEP Certified PV Installer:
Cert. #R02907-17
  
<http://static.squarespace.com/static/52f26626e4b049d9fe1f4f70/53067822e4b0822d0c7053a4/53067827e4b0ec57163c45c5/1392932911551/NABCEP%20PV%20Seal%20Lena.jpg?format=300w>
 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1)

[Daniel Young]

You could show them the 2011 or 2014 NEC, both of which clarify this (rather 
than making a new rule), so the inspector might accept this rational. The 
numbers are a bit different now in the 2014 code (and there is an error in the 
referencing, the exception in 690.13 (A) points to 690.31 (F), where it’s 
actually in 690.31 (G)). But both 2011 and 2014 solve the circular reference 
issue with the 2008 code.

 

In 2008, the code says (690.14 C 1) a disconnect needs to be at the point of 
penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 E) where DC is installed in 
metallic conduit, and complies with the first rule (690.14) that requires the 
disconnect be at the point of penetration, unless it follows the rule (690.31 
E)…… round and round we go. 

 

Common sense would seem to acknowledge that the exception allows you to locate 
the disconnect elsewhere, but we have dealt with a few inspectors in the area 
that feel like they want a disconnect anyway. I think it was a simple fix in 
those cases, we submitted an objection (with code references) in writing, and 
just put a disconnect in to close the permit.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Carl Adams
Sent: Monday, January 04, 2016 10:59 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Source Circuit Disconnect - 690.14 (C)(1)

 

Fellow Wrenches,

 

We recently failed an inspection on a new PV installation

We are operating under the 2008 code

I have attached a small sketch of our conduit routing to clarify things.

 

Inspectors note post inspection ...provide a photovoltaic disconnecting means 
per 690.14 (C)(1) 

 

During his inspection the inspector was unhappy that we had entered the attic 
space with the DC source circuits, saying we should have run the conduit across 
the roof and kept it outside.  Since we entered the building we would need to 
add a DC disconnect in the attic to meet code.  My thought is that we fall 
under the exception listed (690.31(E)) since all source circuit internal to the 
dwelling are in metallic raceways.  I'd like to hear other wrenches chime in on 
this.

 

Our reason for routing things as we did was to keep the installation aesthetics 
first class and minimize unsightly conduit runs.

 

Code section follows

 

690.14 Additional Provisions. Photovoltaic disconnecting

means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).690.14 

 

(C) Requirements for Disconnecting Means. Means

shall be provided to disconnect all conductors in a building

or other structure from the photovoltaic system conductors.

(1) Location. The photovoltaic disconnecting means shall

be installed at a readily accessible location either on the

outside of a building or structure or inside nearest the point

of entrance of the system conductors.

Exception: Installations that comply with 690.31(E) shall

be permitted to have the disconnecting means located remote

from the point of entry of the system conductors.

The photovoltaic system disconnecting means shall not

be installed in bathrooms.

 

 690.31 (E) reads as follows

(E) Direct-Current Photovoltaic Source and Output

Circuits Inside a Building. Where direct-current photovoltaic

source or output circuits of a utility-interactive inverter

from a building-integrated or other photovoltaic system are

run inside a building or structure, they shall be contained in

metal raceways, or metal enclosures, from the point of penetration

of the surface of the building or structure to the

first readily accessible disconnecting means. The disconnecting

means shall comply with 690.14(A) through (D).

 

 

With Regards

Carl Adams, President

SunRock Solar, LLC

513.290.9072 (cell)

513.766.6025 (office)

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 1000V DC Ground wire?

[Daniel Young]

I use standard THWN-2 green of the appropriate size. Ground wire does not
have to have the 1,000Vrating, as the copper inside is at 0 Vdc to ground
(at least we hope it is J). Remember that EGC's can actually be bare copper
(NEC 250.119), think of the ground wire in ROMEX, or the bare copper you see
grounding light fixtures from IKEA... But if it's insulated or covered, it
has to be green or green with yellow stripes. We don't normally have them
bare in a PV install because we use metallic conduit and you don't touch
bare copper to metallic conduits, not to mention insulated stranded wire is
much easier to pull.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

 <http://www.dovetailsolar.com> www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We've completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in
our photo gallery:
<http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric
>
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
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may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
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error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Allen Frishman
Sent: Monday, December 21, 2015 1:21 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 1000V DC Ground wire?

 

Wrenchers,

What are you using for green ground wire from the array to the inverters for
your 1000V DC systems?  

 

I searched the archives but could not find any info.I appreciate your
help!!!

Al Frishman
AeonSolar

(917) 699-6641 <tel:%28917%29%20699-6641>  - cell
(888) 460-2867 <tel:%2%29%20460-2867> 
www.aeonsolar.com <http://www.aeonsolar.com/> 

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SIPS panel roofs

[Daniel Young]

I’ve used Pro Solar Rail in a similar way, it has a flat bottom and you can 
place it directly on the roof with butyl tape under the whole length, then 
fasten as often as you determine is needed. Rails run from peak to eave, and 
modules go in landscape. We mount the rails as close to the peak as practical, 
as it reduces the amount of water that can get to the rail from above, after 
that, it’s a continuous Butyl strip compressed by the rail, and the water would 
have to get in from the sides. You don’t splice rails either, just set the next 
rail ¼-1/2” down roof to allow for thermal expansion. No leaks so far.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

 <http://www.dovetailsolar.com> www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our 
photo gallery:   
<http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric> 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It may 
contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from 
disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not 
disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information 
contained in the message.  If you have received this message in error, please 
reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any 
attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of 
criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Chris Mason
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 2:47 PM
To: d...@solarwork.com; RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SIPS panel roofs

 

I have no experience with SIP but,

There's a product I buy from Krannich that is excellent for difficult roofs 
where there is no point of attachment. It is called Xpress rail. The older 
product, which I don't think they sell anymore but I bought out everything they 
had, could be attached by pop rivet or self drilling metal screws. You drilled 
a hole every six or twelve inches and riveted it right onto metal roof 
sheeting. You back it with double sided EPDM tape. It is amazingly strong and 
probably as well attached as the roof itself.

http://www.everest-solarsystems.com/fileadmin/k2systems/PDF/public/Produktblatter/USA/XPressRail_US3_0813.pdf

 

 

On Wed, Dec 16, 2015 at 7:45 PM, Dana <d...@solarwork.com> wrote:

SIP ROOF INSTALLATION

 

I was asked to install on a SIP panel roof today. 5/8” OSB over 6” of foam on a 
9:12 roof pitch at 9800’ elevation with a Pro panel metal roof skin.  There is 
a finished ceiling underneath the lower side of the SIP roof panel. 

I explained that it was not ideal due to the lack of good attachment etc. They 
were not concerned and said “you’ll make it work!”

 

I have done SIP panels in new construction and we could install backing from 
underneath and refoam.

My first thought was to do 2-2.5 times the normal L feet.

One thought was to use expanding moly-bolts.

 

Has anyone have experience attaching to SIP roof that was not prepared for an 
array? 

 



Dana Orzel 

Great Solar Works, Inc -  NABCEP # 051112-136

E - d...@solarwork.com  - Web - solarwork.com 

O - 970.626.5253  C - 208.721.7003

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"  

P Please consider the environment before printing this email.

 

 


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-- 

Chris Mason

NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Solar Design Engineer

Generac Generators Industrial technician

 

www.cometsolar.com <http://www.cometenergysystems.com> 

264.235.5670

869.662.5670

Skype: netconcepts

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pv i-v analyzers

[Daniel Young]

-   I have the Tri-Ka unit.
-   I probably would not purchase it again unless I planned to make a
business out of advanced troubleshooting.
-   I don't think any other I-V tracer is necessarily any better/worse.
I think you need to pair the features with your goals/needs. I just have not
gotten the use out of our that I had hoped for.
-   Reliability has been great, consistent performance every time it's
in the field. Great memory capacity and battery life. The sensor unit is
handy for doing a standard array health check (gives good/fast cell
temperature and plane of array irradiance to base you calcs off of/ compare
with your onsite monitoring equipment)
-   If you are selling the I_V tracing as a service I believe best
practice for any high accuracy meter is to calibrate yearly/ every other
year (I think it will be in the product manual). I have not had ours long
enough to suspect that it has fallen out of calibration yet. The first trace
I ran was on the array on our office, so as time goes by I plan to test our
array again to see if the meter or array has changed significantly.
-   I think the main negative aspect to I_V tracing in general is the
time it takes. Time is not a big deal on smaller jobs, <500kW. But if you
give yourself an average of 45-60 seconds per string test (that includes
selecting the new string in the device to save the test data under, pulling
the fuse holder of the last string, and inserting the fuse holder of the
next string, with an averaged-out time to switch combiners) and have a 1 MW
array with 180 strings, then you are talking 3hrs/MW of testing time. And
that testing time should be on a day with consistent weather conditions to
ensure accuracy (constant sun at 700 w/m^2 plane of array irradiance or
better, which means you can't plan on starting till late morning, where you
likely get a 3-4hr window for measurements). So you can essentially get
1MWdc tested in a day. If you test in the Midwest, you know your chances of
getting 2-3 good days in a row without some scattered clouds, so you really
have to wait for the right time to go test. It could take over a month to
test a really big project, say 15MW, and that's if you have nothing else on
your calendar and can be on site almost every time you're going to have a
good testing day.

Given the last point above, I tend to be in the camp of monitoring larger
projects on a combiner box level (for central inverters) or string inverter
level (if you design MW's with string inverters like has become more popular
of late). You can usually tell if you have a problem child string with that
kind of granularity, then you could break out the I_V tracer if you need to
dig deeper.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of d...@solarwork.com
Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 2:28 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pv i-v analyzers

Fellow Wrenches:
If you were going to buy or have bought a PV i-v analyzer:
What product did you purchase?
Would you do so again?
Would you purchase a different product?
How has the reliability been?
Does it need to be sent in for periodic recalibration?
Pluses & Minuses?

Thanks for your input & opinions!


Dana Orzel 208.721.7003
Encourage Free Thinking Self Responsible Free Range Children
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase?

[Daniel Young]

I still run under the assumption that if the solar generation ever exceeds 
building demand in these situations, the building voltage will spike up to the 
high voltage cutout of the inverter (unless the generator has the capability to 
try to “motor” to bring the voltage back down), then the voltage will return to 
normal. The system will wait 5 min (as if there were a grid fault, then 
return), then attempt to re-connect. If the solar generation is still in excess 
of the demand, the inverters will cycle again. This essentially is short 
cycling the inverters. Or if the generator circuitry is trying too hard to pull 
the voltage back down, it could damage the generator, but it depends on the 
size/type of genny. Like has been said already, it’s a crap shoot.

 

Will it kill the inverters quickly…..I doubt it. Will they have voided the 
warranty….I’d almost guarantee it.

 

The new Envoy S has some more advanced features though, so It may be able to 
monitor production vs demand and force the array to throttle back to prevent 
this from happening. I’m not familiar enough with the product to say one way or 
the other. I imagine it would have to be capable of reacting very quickly 
though to prevent issues (say, if your electric clothes dryer finished it’s 
cycle, changing you from needing 2kW of generator to supplement PV to all of a 
sudden having 2kw too much PV). 

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Howie Michaelson
Sent: Tuesday, October 20, 2015 12:01 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Generator backfeeding enphase?

 

Does anyone think that there is no issue with having enphase potentially 
backfeeding a backup generator? We almost always will tie in upstream of a 
generator transfer switch, but a competitor is telling clients with an enphase 
system there is no concern. Am I missing something?

Thanks,
Howie
Howie Michaelson
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer™

Catamount Solar
Renewable Energy Systems Sales and Service
VT Solar Electric Incentive Partner
http://www.CatamountSolar.com
802-272-0004

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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary?

[Daniel Young]

Having DC and AC in the same trench (but in separate conduits) is acceptable in 
the NEC, the conduit itself is all the separation required by the NEC. 

 

That being said, I would also not worry about twisting DC wires or ensuring any 
special distance between conduits based on concerns of electro-magnetic noise 
between conductors. If you are talking about a system with a third party arc 
fault detection/interruption system (like AFCI combiners, not a string inverter 
with built in AFCI). I have not run into it yet, but I have heard that the 
third party AFCI combiners are known to nuisance trip due to noise in the wires 
(mostly from the inverter is what I’ve been told). So anything you can 
reasonably do to prevent more noise in the DC side of things, why not do it. I 
would not go so far as to try to twist a set of 3/0 copper conductors in a 200’ 
conduit pull though J I’d rather just bump my conduits up one trade size across 
the board to push my wires farther apart. Since EMF’s decay in strength by the 
square of the distance (2x the distance equals ¼ the emf) just upping the PVC 
conduit sizes makes it simple to significantly reduce any potential emf.

 

All the above is moot though if we’re talking small wire/currents. 

 

Generally most people don’t think about separating AC and DC conduits in a 
trench, and I have not yet heard of an instance where it has caused a problem. 
I over think most things, just to sit back and bring myself back to planet 
earth where I say “ Put AC and DC in separate conduits, try to keep them 
separate in the trench if you can do so easily, then bury it and walk away”. 

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Benn Kilburn
Sent: Wednesday, October 07, 2015 11:22 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] DC conduit with AC secondary?

 

Adam,
My Canadian Electrical Code requires "separation" between conductors of 
different "systems".  I believe the NEC is the same/similar.  
You may notice a flimsy (yet stiff) paper(?) barrier between the AC and DC 
wiring areas in some AC/DC inverter disconnect enclosures assume this is 
sufficient as the inverter (should be) certified as such.
In a raceway or "gutter" box, i've been given the ok from electrical inspectors 
to bundle and keep the AC and DC wire bundles separate from each other.
In a trench, since you are running separate conduits, that could be sufficient, 
otherwise the separation could easily be a layer of dirt or perhaps a pressure 
treated plank.

Good Luck.




Benn Kilburn 

Partner, CSA Certified Solar Photovoltaic Systems Electrician, SkyFire Energy 
Inc

6706 – 82 Ave NW | Edmonton, AB | T6B 0E7

M: 780-906-7807 P: 780-474-8992 | F: 888-405-5843 |  
<http://www.skyfireenergy.com/> www.skyfireenergy.com

 <mailto:b...@skyfireenergy.com> email  
<https://www.facebook.com/SkyFireEnergy> facebook  
<https://twitter.com/SkyFireEnergy> twitter  
<https://www.linkedin.com/company/283735?trk=tyah=tarId%3A1408655033432%2Ctas%3Askyfire%2Cidx%3A2-2-5>
 linkedin  <https://plus.google.com/+SkyFireEnergy/> google

 SkyFire Energy Logo_horizontal 
<http://www.skyfireenergy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/SkyFire-Energy-Logo_horizontal.png>
 

 

On Mon, Oct 5, 2015 at 8:45 AM, AE Solar <autonomousenerg...@gmail.com> wrote:

Wrenchers,

Anyone know of code violations associated with running DC conduit in the same 
trench as conduit for AC secondary? Is that allowed? Bad practice even if 
allowed?Thanks

Adam




Adam Katzman
Autonomous Energies
4872 State Route 9G 
Germantown NY, 12526
www.autonomousenergies.com
(518) 567-1468 <tel:%28518%29%20567-1468> 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash

[Daniel Young]

Figured I would dig through the responses to this list topic since I posted it 
as a poll, of sorts.

 

My final count was: 10 votes to flash, 4 votes not to flash.

 

Those who read all the responses probably know there are a few on either side 
that would be OK with the other option.

 

I’m still on the flashing side of things, though I might consider letting the 
client have a choice. If I explain the differences, and show them the $ 
difference, they can help make the decision (read that as? “take some liability 
off of me J”). We do that now with US vs non-us made solar modules. It’s not 
the same type of comparison here, but at least if the client really wants a 
lower cost, they know how they’re getting it, and future calls from the client 
should get tempered by the knowledge that they chose the attachment method.

 

Some really good points were raised on this topic, thanks to everyone who 
participated.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Monday, August 10, 2015 5:42 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash

 

Although my mind is kinda' made up, this thread has really got me thinking and 
researching. I scoured the NRCA manual, which does not really define 
penetration, but it does say in the shingle manual:

 

Penetration Flashings: There are many small penetrations that need to be 
flashed into asphalt shingle roof

systems, such as vent pipes, exhaust vents, exhaust fans, furnace or water 
heater flue pipes, electrical standpipes and others.

 

There is also a graphical figure showing these various penetrations. The one 
thing these all have in common is that there is a substantial air gap cut fully 
through the roof plane.

 

It occurred to me that ridge caps and vents on shingle roofs use exposed 
fasteners to nail or screw them to the decking. The NRCA manual says about this:

 

Exposed fasteners should be sealed with elastomeric sealant or asphalt roof 
cement on the last ridge piece of a run, at the intersection of hips to a ridge 
and at the intersection of a ridge to another plane.

 

Also read the Snow Guard section for metal roofs, which allows attachments 
sealed to the flat part of the roof pan with sealants.

 

Until the manual specifically addressed the solar attachments and fasteners 
we are debating about, it's open to interpretation.

 

 

 

 




 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:50 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote:

http://www.oatey.com/brands/oatey/regions/canada/products/flashings/roof-flashings/retro-master-flash-roof-flashings

 

Well, the manufacturer calls it a flashing, but I agree that were talking 
semantics here. Flashing, in the code sense, is applied liberally in practice. 
The washers on the thousands of screws on a 5V metal roof must be flashings, 
otherwise these roofs do not meet IBC, and would be prohibited, right? Same 
goes for vents with screwed and sealed boots... Unless you don't call fasteners 
penetrations, in which case you can't hold solar attachment fasteners to a 
different standard. There are plenty of metal roof products that are sealed 
(flashed?) with EPDM gaskets or butyl tape (Sunmodo, Eco-Fasten, S-5, etc.), 
that are successfully implemented in real world scenarios.

 

There are really two issues here: clarifying what is acceptable from a code 
perspective, and industry best practices. Martini shaken or stirred? We're 
probably not going to agree on a single solution as an industry.

 

I have metal flashings on my shingle roof at home - it's my preference, but I 
don't think it is a requirement, nor do I think unflashed fasteners are 
completely unacceptable.




 

Jason

 

 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 5:11 PM, Kurt Johnsen kjenergysyst...@gmail.com wrote:

Not that the names of things matter that much but imho flashing does require 
an overlapping of some kind. An Oatey boot for a metal roof is more of a bedded 
fitting than a flashing. It relies entirely on fasteners and a sealing membrane 
whereas flashings rely mostly on natural forces like gravity. Perhaps an 
experienced roofer weigh in on this.

Kurt Johnsen

 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 3:21 PM, Jason Szumlanski 
ja...@floridasolardesigngroup.com wrote:

If you place a flat object on top of roofing without an uphill material 
lapping over the downhill object, you are not flashing. 

 

By that logic, an Oatey boot is not a flashing for a plumbing vent on a metal 
roof.

 

Just sayin'...

 


Jason Szumlanski

 

 

On Fri, Aug 7, 2015 at 2:19 PM, William Miller william.mil...@millersolar.com 
wrote:

Ray:

 

I have to respectfully disagree with your semantics.  A flashing is an 
overlapping of roofing materials such that gravity will direct rain and melt 
water off of the roof.  This is a universally accepted waterproofing method 
that does

[RE-wrenches] Lithium Iron Phosphate

[Daniel Young]

Hello Wrenches,

 

I've been trying to think through how I can mate some lower cost charge
controllers (prostar 15A 24v PWM units, or the new 30A Midnite solar Brat)
to some 8s LiFePo battery banks.

 

As I understand it, lithium batteries meant to be charged to around 3.65V
per cell (29.2V for the 8 cell bank) and then the charge is terminated, not
put into a float mode.

 

Assuming I use a PCM to protect the batteries, so that each cell has a
balancing function and also over/under voltage protection. Would the battery
bank accept a simple charge controller that in essence, charged to
3.65V/cell, then backed down to a float voltage that was lower than it's
resting voltage, say 3.3V/cell. In theory at that voltage, there would be
little/no charge current going to the batteries. Or would the cells still
take in a small amount of power at these voltages and start to
overcharge/degrade?

 

Again, I'd plan to have a full PCM circuit protecting cells and balancing
them, but I'd like to have a good way to charge the batteries with solar
(right now I'm shooting for using a 72cell module and 24V nominal LiFePo
battery stack, so maybe there is another way that I can use, but I've not
decided to buy any batteries I am ok with accidently blowing up if I'm
wrongJ).

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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[RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof

[Daniel Young]

We have a job going in on  1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we
tried to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that
we had to keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are
serviceable equipment.

 

We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar
modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service
intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention
for 20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all
pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge
as well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced
would be safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on
keeping the array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building,
so we are in the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all
this he said “you can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar
modules. If someone falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I
did my job…”

 

So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for
serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify.
Does anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the
majority of you say that 10’ is the right call anyway?

 

I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go
with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default
commercial code agency if I don’t have to.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof

[Daniel Young]

We actually planned on bringing that to him next time as well, he didn’t care 
that we said we would be tied off if any work were needed in the future, but 
the words “permanently installed” might change his tune. 

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of will...@millersolar.com
Sent: Thursday, August 13, 2015 10:38 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Serviceable equipment on a roof

 

Daniel:

 

Could you install permanent fall protection anchors strategically located?  
Service personnel could anchor in wherever needed. S-5 style fall anchors are 
made. 

 

Wm




On Aug 13, 2015, at 7:30 AM, Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com wrote:

We have a job going in on  1 ¼”:12 standing seam commercial roof. When we tried 
to walk the drawings through the permit department, we were told that we had to 
keep the solar modules 10’ from the roof edge because they are serviceable 
equipment.

 

We’ve run into this before, and have been successful arguing that the solar 
modules are not installed as serviceable equipment (they require service 
intervals closer to the roof membrane on flat roofs [little to no attention for 
20+yrs], rather than the roof top AC unit as an example). We install all 
pass-thru boxes or other similar enclosures at least 10’ from the roof edge as 
well to make it clear the most likely parts to be inspected/serviced would be 
safe. We also pointed out the International Fire codes rules on keeping the 
array 4’ from the edge of the roof (smaller commercial building, so we are in 
the 4’ setback category, rather than the 6’ setback). To all this he said “you 
can’t tell me that no one will ever service those solar modules. If someone 
falls off the roof and dies, I wanna be able to say I did my job…”

 

So, I think my only option is to point to a well backed definition for 
serviceable equipment to show him that the solar modules do not qualify. Does 
anyone have any good source to help with this issue? Or would the majority of 
you say that 10’ is the right call anyway?

 

I know I might just be up against a hard ^%$# inspector and have to just go 
with it, but I also do not want to set precedent within my states default 
commercial code agency if I don’t have to.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system

[Daniel Young]

We did this on a job once, we have 1yr on the install and so far, so good. It 
had the side-effect of slowing down the time it takes to melt/slough off snow, 
due to the fact that the snow blanket was now continuous, and so it held onto 
itself as one large sheet, not letting the smaller slabs of snow slide off at 
will. The open gaps actually let the snow act like a sheet of postage stamps, 
the gaps act like a perforation, letting the snow break apart more easily and 
slide away.

 

We simply treated it like a large gap needing sealant. We used the 
appropriately sized foam backer rod, cleaned the parts of the module frame that 
needed to be sealed with rubbing alcohol, inserted the backer rod from the top 
(you might want some painters tape under the frames to keep the rod from 
falling through the bottom), then applied a roofing style silicone (we used DOW 
795) and applied it in the hour-glass shape needed to help provide for long 
term durability/adhesion. Then you can just remove the backer rod from below 
after a day or two.

 

It cut the water coming through by around 95%. The trick is the mid clamps, 
it’s difficult to get the seal to be durable at those locations, so pay 
attention there. If you have a bottom clamped system, you should be home free.

 

Remember most solar modules are not water proof at the interface between the 
glass and the aluminum frame (also the corners of the aluminum frame are 
generally a weak spot for water too), so expect some water to drip through. 
Standard crystalline framed Solar modules are just not designed to be a roofing 
material…your shooting for less water getting through, you can’t stop it 100% 
without something under the array o catch it.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Benn Kilburn
Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 8:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Between module gasket system

 

A real DIY would be to use masking tape on the top side of the gap then fill 
from the bottom with a sealant (or I suppose taping the bottom side and fill 
from the top would work too). It wouldn't have to be completely full as long as 
it covers fully from side to side and relative thick/deep (half mod frame 
thickness?)

 I would use the roof sealant that we use... Henry 925, since it is designed to 
stay flexible and withstand dynamic movement and good for up to a 1 gap. Then 
next day remove the tape, unless you use a very high quality tape to begin 
with. 

I'm sure there are better ways or at least improvements that can be made this 
initial suggestion, but it's my day off, sort of ;)

 

Benn Kilburn

SkyFire Energy Inc. 

780-906-7807

 


On Aug 7, 2015, at 4:00 PM, Wayne Irwin wa...@pureenergysolar.com wrote:

We have a customer with a ground mount system that would like to seal the 1 
gap (UniRac) between the modules so that he can have a dry space underneath the 
array.

Any product recommendations or DIY suggestions?

Thanks,


Wayne Irwin,
President
License #CVC56695 
State Licensed Solar Contractor
Pure Energy Solar International Inc. 
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[RE-wrenches] to flash or not to flash

[Daniel Young]

Writing the subject above, it seems like I've heard this question on the
wrench list before, but I could not find it in my old email archives. Feel
free to pint me back to the old discussion if it's there.

 

I've been using a flashing based roof attachment for 8+yrs now (quick mount
or similar). Now we are looking at Rail-less systems  (quick rack is a good
example). There is also a non-flashed rail-less racking from roof-tech
http://roof-tech.us/ . I've always been of the opinion that simply crushing
some sealant/gasket onto an asphalt shingle work fine at first (the test
data from roof-tech is impressive), but would be an issue 10+yrs down the
road (thermal expansion movement, freeze/thaw, etc). I can make a good
waterproof seal at first by just slathering some butyl/silicone to an L-foot
and cranking it down on the shingles, but that practice really disappeared
8+yrs ago.

 

Maybe consider this a Poll: (to flash, or not to flash) 

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings

[Daniel Young]

Hey Gary,

 

Basically the area of the dropping will lower the current of that module (and 
the current of that string if this is a string inverter). The amount of current 
loss will be the % of the dropping area vs the area of the cell it landed on. 
Voltage won’t be affected by things the scale of a few bird droppings.

 

If this is a string inverter, theoretically if one module on the string took a 
hit, then every other module on the string can take a hit too and not really 
increase the impact, as they are all already current limited by the first 
module to take a hit. The current of that string will just be the same as the 
current from the most affected module in the string. So multiple droppings 
really don’t have a big additive affect.

 

Assume all birds drop the same size load (you’re not getting seagulls over 
there so you’re talking starlings, robins, barn swallows, all similar size :) 
once one module in a string is hit, there will not be any further impact on 
production until some module in the string gets 2 hits on the same cell on the 
same module. Cells are just a string mounted in a module frame. So you could 
have a module with 5 droppings on it if they were all on different cells, and 
it would do the same as a module with just one dropping, if they were all the 
same size.

 

At some point that above example breaks down, because the bypass diodes will 
start to kick in if one cell grouping gets hit too hard.

 

As for where on the module….untill you get to the point where bypass diodes are 
kicking in, I don’t think there is a difference. And at what point would the 
diodes kick in, you’d need to get an I-V curve tracer out and play around with 
paintballs or something to help quantify that J

 

That’s the way I understand it at least. I have not gone out with my I-V tracer 
and dug into this in detail. It’s just based of the core parallel vs series 
wiring of the typical PV source circuit. I have not seen much impact to date 
from bird droppings on our Solaredge installs so far (the ones I KNOW where hit 
by birdie bombers were so close to those that weren’t that I can’t pick them 
out on the monitoring portal, they just look like typical manufacturing 
variances [all within the +/- x% power tolerances])

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We’ve completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our 
photo gallery:   
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It may 
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From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of gary easton
Sent: Monday, July 06, 2015 3:36 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Bird droppings

 

I have a customer with a bit of a bird problem.   The array is ground mounted 
and can be easily cleaned but he is wondering what the impact of for instance 
droppings on one cell.   And how it adds up.   Is there a rule of thumb for 
this? Does it depend where the cell is located in the module?



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm

[Daniel Young]

Might this work?

http://www.galco.com/buy/Edwards-Signaling/1064-N5?source=googleshopping 
http://www.galco.com/buy/Edwards-Signaling/1064-N5?source=googleshoppingkpid=1064-N5-EDWDgclid=Cj0KEQiAu_GmBRDhtK-kzqKcuJwBEiQAJvB8n49GEUrgP8Uur3FaS47lpinWK8HaY1q0l_Eq9p6pPqoaAiMd8P8HAQ
 
kpid=1064-N5-EDWDgclid=Cj0KEQiAu_GmBRDhtK-kzqKcuJwBEiQAJvB8n49GEUrgP8Uur3FaS47lpinWK8HaY1q0l_Eq9p6pPqoaAiMd8P8HAQ

 

120V, adjustable volume. I’ve not used it, so I have no idea if it will fit the 
bill.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Glenn Burt
Sent: Thursday, February 12, 2015 1:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm

 

Sounds like a perfect use for an Arduino driven speaker.
There are thousands of publicly posted circuits that will probably net a simple 
solution, or the name of a local person who would love to help/ adapt one for 
this purpose.


Sincerely,
Glenn Burt
Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse grammar and typos.

  _  

From: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org
Sent: ‎2/‎12/‎2015 9:52
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Off Grid Alarm



We are looking for an audible alarm that will not drive the pets crazy if
it stays on for hours when no one is home. At present, only a red indicator
light goes on when the grid is down.

It would need to run off 120 VAC. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Thanks,

Drake


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Re: [RE-wrenches] RE; SW4024's were off grid, now on grid AC2 Controls?

[Daniel Young]

The way I would do this if using outback (really what I'm familiar with) is
to set up the aux relay on the inverter to trigger an AC relay that
connected the grid to the inverters ac input using the load shed function.
It would trigger the relay when the batteries reached a set voltage (user
programmable in the outback), then disconnect the grid at higher set
voltage. Ex: activate relay at 46V, then de-activate relay at 50V (48V
system). All you are basically doing is activating a charging source instead
of severing a load to help the battery state of charge. Not sure how the
trace handles AC1 and AC2, so maybe you'd need a second relay to make sure
the generator input is always off when the grid input is active.

 

Not sure if the trace has this functionality. Hope this applies, or helps
get you down the right path.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Dave
Sent: Sunday, December 14, 2014 8:10 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] RE; SW4024's were off grid, now on grid AC2 Controls?

 

Here is a request for advice from one of my old off grid customers who has
recently brought in the grid to lessen his dependence on the generator. He
is NOT selling back to the grid.

 

The main question I have is this: Can we program the Trace SW4024 so that
that it will charge the batteries with Grid Power (AC2) when a low voltage
setting is reached?

 

 I have two SW4024 inverters.  They are set up to each handle about 1/2
of the loads in the house.

 

Our system is setup so we are either on Grid power, or battery power.  

The choice is controlled by a manual transfer switch.

 

AC1 on both inverters is backup generator which is controlled by Inverter #1
when battery voltage reaches preset levels.

 

AC2 on both inverters is AC from the grid and is currently controlled by
circuit breakers.  The circuit breakers are normally in the off position and
the batteries are charged by the sun.  Typically if we want to charge the
batteries a bit with grid power we turn on the circuit breakers and the
batteries are charged through both inverters by utility power.

 

What I would like to be able to do is set the inverter, probably inverter #1
for consistency, to allow grid charging at a set battery voltage and then
cut off the grid when it reaches an upper voltage.  My thought is something
along the lines of, if the batteries reach 40% of full charge Grid is
started and allowed to charge batteries until they reach 80% charge.

 

I would like to continue as things are at present with the inverter
triggering the back-up generator if needed.  Again my thought is at 35% of
Full charge Generator is started and is then shut off at 80% of full charge.

 

My goal is to use PV juice as much as possible with first backup being Grid
and second backup being Generator.  This should allow us to go away and
hopefully run the house on PV but have two backups if needed. 

 

 

I would appreciate advice from anyone with experience with a system like
this.

Best,

Dave

 

David Palumbo 

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-888-7194

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Daniel Young]

Correction to the below example:

 

[In the NEC table 310.15(B) we see that a 250kcmill copper wire handles 255A
@75C, and a 100kcmill (4x the area) can only take 545A, or 2.2 times the
current, so not too far from my example]. Should be 1000kcmill

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Daniel Young
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 5:47 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

It all boils down to how ampacity is determined in the NEC.

 

Ampacity is really related to temperature as far as the NEC is concerned.
The ampacity of a 1/0 wire at 90c is the constant current it can carry in
free air (30 C air) and not achieve an internal temperature of more than 90
C. the 75 c ampacity is the same, the amperage it can carry while not going
over 75 C.

 

Now, if you double the diameter of a circle, the circumference also doubles,
but the cross sectional Area actually goes up much more (4x more in fact)
because cross sectional area is based on the square of the diameter and
circumference is simply based on the diameter ^1 power.

 

Wire dissipates heat from its surface only, so the dimension critical for
the amount of heat a wire can dissipate is circumference, not cross
sectional area. So even though the wire is larger and has a much lower
resistance, the heat dissipating area does not increase by as much, so in
the end the larger wire has a lower current carrying capacity per unit cross
sectional area, than a smaller wire.

 

Here is an example that lets me keep the math simple: (the #'s are all round
#'s and not based on real ampacities/resistances, just to keep the math
simple.)

 

Wire 1:

A diameter of 10 units and can carry 100A through it and stay at 90C. It has
a resistance of 1 ohm/1000ft.

 

Wire 2:

A diameter of 20 units. It has 4times the cross sectional area, and double
the circumference (which means 2x the outer surface area) to dissipate heat.
It has a resistance of .25 ohm/1000ft (1/4 that of wire 1 since it has 4x
the amount of copper to carry current).

 

For wire 1 to stay at 90 C, it has to dissipate (P=I^2*R), P=(100amps^2)*1
omh=10,000 watts per unit of outer surface area.

 

So if Wire 2 has double the surface area to dissipate heat, it can dissipate
about 2x the energy, or 20,000watts. So if we work it backwards (P=I^2*R is
the same as I=sqrt[P/R]) I=sqrt[20,000/.25]=sqrt[8]=282amps

 

So wire 2 can handle (282amps/100amps)=2.8 times the amperage, even though
it has 4times the cross sectional area, all because it only has 2 times the
surface are to get rid of heat. There are other factors with heat transfer
that make the larger wire have even lower ampacity, but this demonstrates
the main contributing factor.

 

[In the NEC table 310.15(B) we see that a 250kcmill copper wire handles 255A
@75C, and a 100kcmill (4x the area) can only take 545A, or 2.2 times the
current, so not too far from my example].

 

I hope the above helps more than it hurts.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 4:49 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

That's the part that is throwing me off. If I have 3 times the circular mil
and compare that to a single conductor of similar circular mil, how do I
have 3 times the ampacity? These are very different numbers.

Example: 1/0 @ 90c is 170 amps x 3 = 510 amps. 510A is what a conductor just
over 750 AWG will carry. The circular mils of 3 1/0 cables is only 325,050
or a 325 AWG cable which would be rated at about 330 amps. 

So, is it 510 amps (3x the ampacity) or 330 amps (3x circular mil)? And,
more importantly, why?

Larry



 

On 12/2/14 11:14 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:

I am sorry.  Bad fingers.  Three times the ampacity under the same
conditions.

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Larry
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now have a
cable between 300 and 350 AWG?

Thank you,
 
Larry

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Daniel Young]

Three things:
1. The skin effect would only apply in and AC situation, correct?. So we
need to keep AC/DC separated when talking in detail about voltage drop for
example, which we already know is true since the NEC gives different
resistance #'s for DC vs AC in NEC tables 8 and 9. (but the band should stay
together IMHO)

2. Doesn't the stranding of the conductor essentially minimize the skin
effect? A 250kcmill wire is actually 37 #12solid wires, and a 1000kcmill is
actually 61 #8solid wires.

3. Temperature is still the driver for the NEC and the surface area really
drives heat dissipation capacity/temperature. This is how I've always
understood it to be at least.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13
 
-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Richard L Ratico
Sent: Wednesday, December 03, 2014 6:47 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

The Skin Effect largely explains why ampacity does not increase in a
linear fashion with increasing wire size.
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skin_effect)

Dick
Solarwind Electric



--- You wrote:
Taking Jarmo's example a step further, if you unroll the 3 wires so that
they are flat, place those 3 end to end and then unroll the larger 975 KCMIL
wire and lay it next to those 3 placed end to end, the 3 smaller
circumferences will be square root of 3 times longer or,  about 1.732
times longer than the larger 975 KCMIL wire.  That's 1.732 times more
breathing (cooling) area.
Was that about the amount of difference you saw in the NEC table, Larry ?
1.7 times or so ?

boB


On 12/2/2014 4:45 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:

 VERY nice example, Jarmo !

 Hey, one day, probably after we are all gone, maybe everybody will be 
 using high temperatue superconductors and we won't have to worry about 
 wire size any more.

 If they can make them work well with AC

 boB

 On 12/2/2014 4:26 PM, jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com wrote:
 Hi:

 Look at it this way,

 The three conductors in parallel can handle more current because they 
 have more surface area with which to dissipate heat.  Or to put it 
 another way, the heat from the middle of the thick 975 kCM cant get 
 out and so the wire stays hotter.

 See picture,



 JARMO



_
 *
 Jarmo Venalainen*  | *Schneider Electric **  |  Solar Business*  |
 *CANADA*  | *Training  Development Specialist - Senior* *
 Phone:* +604-422-2528  | *Fax:* +604-420-1591  | *Mobile:*
 +604-505-0291 *
 Email:* _jarmo.venalainen@schneider-electric.com_
 mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com | 
 *Site:*_www.SEsolar.com_ http://www.sesolar.com/ | *Address:* 3700 
 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 _ _http://%20www.sesolar.com/
 *** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail



 From:Larry la...@starlightsolar.com
 To:  RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org,
 Date:12/02/2014 03:30 PM
 Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining
 Sent by: RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org


 -
 ---



 Hey boB,

 This is the reference table I was using. They show 325 AWG and 325kCM 
 refer to the same diameter cable but I should have used kcm for clarity.

 If all insulation/temp rating is the same we are back to my original 
 question. Anyone else able to explain this? To be safe I am leaning 
 toward using the combined CM number to size for current rather than 3 
 times the ampacity as that just makes no sense to me.


 On 12/2/14 3:54 PM, _boB@midnitesolar.com_
 mailto:b...@midnitesolar.comwrote:

 The area of the conductor will be 3 times and you would think that 
 the NEC Ampacity would also be 3 times
 that of one conductor.   But one LARGE conductor with the same area 
 might not be as high as you think
 because of insulation.  I would think that ampacity of 3 cables in 
 parallel would be 3 times.  But probably not when you take a single 
 cable of the 3X area out of the NEC table.  (I haven't looked at this 
 to verify)

 Also,  Larry,  325 AWG 750 AWG (gauge) wire is a bit too small for 
 this, don't you think ?

 I know...  You mean circular mils...
 boB



--- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

[Daniel Young]

Essentially right.

 

The only thing you need to account for is the conduit run. If you run those 3x 
1/0’s  for each leg in the same conduit, you then need to apply any applicable 
derates due to multiple current carrying conductors in a conduit, on top of any 
other conditions of use derates.

 

Or avoid that issue by having each parallel set of conductors in their own 
conduits. And, avoid having wires of different polarity/phase in separate 
conduits. I’ve heard of 3ph service entrances where all L1’s were in one metal 
conduit, then L2’s in a second metal conduit, L3’s in another, etc. The 
resulting electro-magnetic resonance between the conduits heated them to the 
point you could not lay your hand on the conduits. The separation of the wires 
by a metallic conduit acted like the iron core of a transformer (a crappy iron 
core) and heated up by the constant changes in the EMF. With DC, I would 
suspect that you would just essentially be building a full time electromagnet, 
not a heat issue, but might cause your clients to get a knock on the door by 
some boy scouts on an orienteering trip when their compasses all point to their 
house ;)

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Bill Turberville
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 1:15 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

I am sorry.  Bad fingers.  Three times the ampacity under the same conditions.

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Larry
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:09 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

OK, let's use 1/0 for the example. 108,350 x 3 = 325,050. Do I now have a cable 
between 300 and 350 AWG?

Thank you,
 
Larry

On 12/2/14 10:51 AM, Bill Turberville wrote:

The minimum conductor size that can be paralleled, according to the NEC is 1/0.

 

William C. Turberville P.E.

President

Electrical Contracting Enterprises LLC

3080 Stage Post Dr ste 107

Bartlett, TN 38133

901-348-9230 ext 101 phone

901-289-6346 cell

901-348-2192 FAX

 

 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jerry Shafer
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 11:45 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Parallel Wire combining

 

We have installed multible mcm 500 to meet this and there were three on each 
leg but that was because of the required size and bending room
Jerry

On Dec 2, 2014 7:43 AM, Larry la...@starlightsolar.com wrote:

Wrenches,

If I combine 3 conductors of equal length in parallel, is the resulting size 
equal to 3 times the Circular Mil area? For example, #4 is 42,080cm so are 
three #4's close to 2/0 (134,200cm) in size? Is it as simple as this? Assuming 
the conductors can not be removed individually, does this mean the current 
capacity is equal to the resulting wire size?

Thanks, Larry

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule

[Daniel Young]

It also incorporates some pretty nauseating marketing.

 

Thank you William, I hoped I wasn't the only one who thought that!

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We've completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in
our photo gallery:
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
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may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
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error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of William Miller
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 4:49 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule

 

Friends:

 

This new breaker looks like it incorporates some good ideas.

 

It also incorporates some pretty nauseating marketing.  The web site is all
fluff and little substance.  For example, it is not clear what brand of
panel this will fit in, listing status, etc.  I am also disgusted at the
exaggeration on the applicability of the product.  All of this makes me
hesitate to use this product.

 

William

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 
805-438-5600

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com
Sent: Tuesday, December 02, 2014 12:14 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] 120% rule

 

Hi: 

I'm also not associated with the manufacturer and am not interested in
promoting the, but do get lots of questions about these kinds of things and
want to make sure I really understand what it is they are offering 

From what I can tell it's a special dual breaker which replaces the main
panel breaker and provides contacts for the PV generated AC in such a way
that panel busbar ratings are not a factor. 

Does anyone know if that's true? 

Here's a link to a wiring layout that the manufacturer has, 

 http://www.qfe002.com/alternative-energy-solutions/
http://www.qfe002.com/alternative-energy-solutions/ 

JARMO

_ 

Jarmo Venalainen  |   Schneider Electric   |  Solar Business  |   CANADA  |
Training  Development Specialist - Senior 
Phone: +604-422-2528  |   Fax: +604-420-1591  |   Mobile: +604-505-0291 
Email:  mailto:jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com
jarmo.venalai...@schneider-electric.com  |   Site: http://www.sesolar.com/
www.SEsolar.com  |   Address: 3700 Gilmore Way, Burnaby, BC V5G4M1 

 http://%20www.sesolar.com/ 
*** Please consider the environment before printing this e-mail 




From: 

Jerry Shafer jerrysgarag...@gmail.com 


To: 

RE-wrenches RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org, 


Date: 

12/02/2014 09:19 AM 


Subject: 

[RE-wrenches] 120% rule 


Sent by: 

RE-wrenches re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org

 

  _  




I have seen a lot of talk about the meter main and solar breakers and what
the 120% rule is intended for. I have seen a product at SPI this year and as
I am not pushing this product or indorsing it, it may be of value to some of
you that are dealing with the issue of system size vs meter main check out
B3 bypass its a breaker with internal bypass built in and does not connect
in to the buss. 
Jerry 
NABCEP  

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Version

[RE-wrenches] update on micro-inverter reliability

[Daniel Young]

Hello Wrenches,

 

I've been looking at the list, and it seems it's been over a year since
there was any detailed discussion on the reliability of Enphase/other
micro-inverters. With the 2014NEC finally rolling out in my state, I wanted
to re-evaluate them as an option. We have several M190 installs that have
bad failure rates (one job is having all the 190's replaced with 215's on
Enphases dime) but we really have too few 215's and 250's out there to be
able to form an opinion.

 

A year ago I kept seeing anecdotal evidence the 215's and 250's are MUCH
more reliable, but I'm looking for REAL data if it's available. Anyone have
access to warranty claims by enphase on a per product basis? Or better yet,
failure rate vs service life of the units, now that the newer generation of
inverters have a decent install base and kind of relevant in service time?

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail 2013 cmyk 300dpi.jpg

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We've completed nearly 400 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in
our photo gallery:
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
from disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you
may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
information contained in the message.  If you have received this message in
error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

 

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[RE-wrenches] Recom Solar

[Daniel Young]

Anyone on the list had any experiences with Recom solar modules? I have a
client asking about them. Their spec sheets appear to be in order, german
company, good temp coefficients, etc. but that's just paper.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014

[Daniel Young]

Thanks for the response David, this is what I was kind of expecting.

 

I was hoping for some sort of magic box that attached to the first, and
last module in the string, and would shut the string down if it lost signal
from the inverter. Similar to how solar edge works, but with only 1-2
units/string. 

 

I like Solar Edge, but we try very hard to offer US made equipment as our
primary offering. Right now it seems that 690.12 is just increasing the US
made premium, to the point where I don't imagine US inverters will be even
5% of our residential installation base next year when 2014 NEC hits the
majority of our jurisdictions. Makes me sad.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of David Brearley
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 2:26 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 2014

 

Daniel,

 

Here's some of what I learned about solutions for 690.12.

 

Residential rapid shutdown

 

SMA's TL-US series inverters can meet the 10 second requirement in 690.12
without further mediation. Therefore you can meet 690.12 with these string
inverters by adding a ground-level rapid shutdown controller (an e-stop
button) and a rooftop rapid shutdown box (a pass-through wiring box w/
contactors to open each source circuit conductor.) 

 

While SMA may be working on an in-house solution for these components,
Bentek solar has a third-party solution that will be available very soon:

 

http://www.bentek.com/solar-products/disconnect-systems/rapid-shutdown-syste
ms/

 

This same product works w/ ABB UNO-series inverters, which can also meet the
10-second requirement w/out additional mediation. 

 

It sounds like these products will run about $700 in the short-term, but are
expected to sell for less than $500 as demand scales.

 

Commercial rapid shutdown

 

Many companies are leading with low-profile inverter skids that allow
3-phase string inverters to be located on a commercial rooftop w/in the
array field. In some cases, these mounting products are offered from the
inverter company (AE), but there are also many third-party providers
(SolarBOS, Bentek, etc.) w/ solutions for ABB inverters, SMA inverters, etc.

 

The motivation to put string inverters on commercial rooftops is largely
driven by the cost of arc-fault  rapid shutdown enabled combiners. If you
want to use a central inverter, it looks like you'll have to spend 2X as
much money on your source circuit combiners as you are now in order to meet
these code requirements.

 

David Brearley

Senior Technical Editor, SolarPro magazine

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

david.brear...@solarprofessional.com

Direct: 541.261.6545

 

Check out this AMAZING music video tribute to SolarPro:
http://bit.ly/1qfMCCh

 

 

 

On Oct 29, 2014, at 12:45 PM, re-wrenches-requ...@lists.re-wrenches.org
wrote:






From: Daniel Young dyo...@dovetailsolar.com

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments

Date: October 29, 2014 9:34:48 AM CDT

To: 'RE-wrenches' re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Reply-To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org



I too am interested. Especially after the teaser from SMA that they would
unveil their solution to the 2014 NEC 690.12 fiasco at the show. I see
nothing on SMA's website as of yet.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Bill Loesch
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2014 8:21 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SPI 14 Post Show Request for Comments


Gentlemen  Ladies,

Anyone who went to the LAS show have any comments? Hopefully, not everything
that happens in Vegas stays in Vegas.

Thanks for sharing,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094



 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Interconnection with Generator

[Daniel Young]

We also go to the utility side as a rule. 

We have only one exception. A 60kW Solectria inverter is tied into a
building system that is supported by a 1 MW generator. It's a university
heating plant where it was clearly shown the base load was far larger than
the 60kw solar PV system, even when the plant was at idle. The facility
had a building management system with historical 15min usage data to support
this.

Unless you have hard data that your solar inverter will never ever meet the
buildings real-time demand, tie into the grid side. This is best practice to
the best of my knowledge.

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13
 

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Aaron Mandelkorn
Sent: Tuesday, October 28, 2014 11:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Interconnection with Generator

I always connect to the utility side of the transfer switch. Since the
transfer switch is a listed electrical enclosure it is the best option I
have used. 

Aaron

Aaron Mandelkorn
Owner/Solar Specialist
Renewable Energy Outfitters
719-221-5249
970-596-3744
www.reosolar.com
reoso...@gmail.com


 On Oct 28, 2014, at 8:48 AM, Corey Shalanski cshalan...@joule-energy.com
wrote:
 
 Wrenches,
 
 We frequently encounter residences with backup generators. The question
that arises: how should the PV system be interconnected?
 
 I have searched the archives and found some good information about this
subject, but nothing definitive. I have fallen into the habit of broadly
proclaiming that the PV system *must* be interconnected on the utility
side of the transfer switch - in order to prevent backfeeding into the
generator and thereby eliminate unintentional equipment damage. Is this
concern justified? If so, should this be an absolute rule or would it depend
on the generator make/model?
 
 Thanks for any insights.
 
 --
 Corey Shalanski
 Joule Energy
 New Orleans, LA
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire

[Daniel Young]

Correction, my wire is 0.259 OD, still 0.053 in^2

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13
 
Lead Systems Designer for:

www.dovetailsolar.com
Ph: 740-274-0139

We’ve completed over 310 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our
photo gallery: 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric
This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
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error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 


-Original Message-
From: Daniel Young [mailto:dyo...@dovetailsolar.com] 
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:53 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: RE: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire

My 2kV PV wire is 0.29OD, so I use 0.053in^2. It's single layer insulation
if that helps.

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 NABCEP
Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13
 
Lead Systems Designer for:

www.dovetailsolar.com
Ph: 740-274-0139

We’ve completed over 310 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our
photo gallery: 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric
This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
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may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
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error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire


I got .0437 for RHH-2 with outer jacket in the 2011 code

 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire
From: Kirk k...@vtsolar.com
Date: Thu, June 26, 2014 1:15 pm
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hi folks,
What is the proper approximate in2  area to use for #10 1kva/2kva  pv wire
for calculating conduit fill? I'm on a job site and don't have the specs
with me. Thanks.

Kirk Herander
VSE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire

[Daniel Young]

My 2kV PV wire is 0.29OD, so I use 0.053in^2. It's single layer insulation
if that helps.

Daniel Young, 
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90
NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13
 
Lead Systems Designer for:

www.dovetailsolar.com
Ph: 740-274-0139

We’ve completed over 310 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our
photo gallery: 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric
This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
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may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
information contained in the message.  If you have received this message in
error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of d...@foxfire-energy.com
Sent: Thursday, June 26, 2014 1:44 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire


I got .0437 for RHH-2 with outer jacket in the 2011 code

 Original Message 
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Pv wire
From: Kirk k...@vtsolar.com
Date: Thu, June 26, 2014 1:15 pm
To: RE-wrenches re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org

Hi folks,
What is the proper approximate in2  area to use for #10 1kva/2kva  pv wire
for calculating conduit fill? I'm on a job site and don't have the specs
with me. Thanks.

Kirk Herander
VSE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] 60 Cell Small 12 V System

[Daniel Young]

Hey Drake,

 

We're finding that the small systems are cheaper if you use a 72 cell
module, then a simple PWM charge controller with 24v battery and the
smallest 24v inverter you can find, samlex makes a 300w 24v sine wave
inverter for about $160. That combo can often come in lower than using a
special mppt charge controller just to deal with bucking down the voltage
for a 12v setup. It all depends on the details though. If they're set up to
run off of 12vdc direct, then adding an inverter is an extra expense, but it
can still work out. You just might want to price it both ways to see what
works for you with the pricing and products you have available.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

Lead Systems Designer for:

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We've completed over 310 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our
photo gallery:
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It
may contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt
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may not disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the
information contained in the message.  If you have received this message in
error, please reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message
along with any attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a
violation of criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications
privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Drake
Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2014 9:31 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] 60 Cell  Small 12 V System

 

Hello Wrenches,

A small town wants to put a kiosk in a park with a video display. It would
be great to power this with a 60 cell, 255 W module and charge a 12 V
battery. Morningstar has a product that would do this, but it will only pass
through 200 W. 

Is there a new product on the market that would be economical and not limit
the module output?

Thanks,

Drake 


Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
740-448-7328
http://athens-electric.com/


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Proposal Sketching Tool/Software

[Daniel Young]

Very nice Jason!

 

I’ll certainly take a look at that plugin. I should mention the 2hr sketch was 
including the detailed roof measurements and placement of all the roof 
obstructions. I’m not as fast as you still, as the simple best case layout 
would still have taken me the better part of 45min to get it where I would want 
itJ

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

Lead Systems Designer for:

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

Ph: 740-274-0139

 

We’ve completed over 310 renewable energy projects!  Check out a few in our 
photo gallery:   
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric 
http://www.dovetailsolar.com/Our-Work.aspx?path=commercial+-+solar+electric

This email message and attachments are intended only for the addressee.  It may 
contain information which is legally privileged, confidential and exempt from 
disclosure.  If you are not the intended recipient of this message, you may not 
disclose, print, copy or disseminate this message and/or the information 
contained in the message.  If you have received this message in error, please 
reply and notify the sender (only) and delete this message along with any 
attachments.  Unauthorized interception of this email is a violation of 
criminal laws and laws covering electronic communications privacy matters. 

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2014 7:47 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Proposal Sketching Tool/Software

 

That's easy to talk through. We tell the prospect in advance that we make an 
initial assessment based on aerial imagery to show the maximum possible (trees 
can be cut usually, and plumbing can be moved). When we arrive, if there are 
any obstructions, we talk about that with the homeowner. It's really quite 
simple. No embarrassment.

 

The opposite of what you describe is often the case - we assume that there is a 
serious shading issue, only to arrive and find out that tall trees have been 
cut since the images were taken. Some conversation at initial lead intake can 
reduce that possibility.

 

Fortunately, around here we usually have pretty crisp and recent imagery so at 
least we know if there will be an obstruction in advance. Like you said, the 
location and height is hard to pinpoint on a drawing in advance.

 

It's incredibly easy to revise the drawings according to what is discovered at 
the site visit. Usually we will will do an electronic presentation on an iPad, 
then revise the drawing if necessary before emailing the PDF to the homeowner.​

 

  
http://ws-stats.appspot.com/ga/pixel.png?yes__count=truee=legacy_impression 

 

On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 4:20 AM, William Miller will...@millersolar.com wrote:

Jason:

 

Very impressive.  Thanks for sharing.

 

If you do your design from a satellite image, aren’t you afraid you might miss 
a plumbing vent or other obstruction, or the shade from a tree that you cannot 
judge the height of accurately?  One foot can make the difference of 3 modules 
on a 3 row install.  Is it embarrassing to sell the customer x number of 
modules and arrive to find out you can only fit x?

 

William

 

 

Gradient Cap_mini
Lic 773985
millersolar.com http://www.millersolar.com/ 
805-438-5600

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf 
Of Jason Szumlanski
Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2014 2:17 PM


To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Proposal Sketching Tool/Software

 

Rather than sharing individual presentation examples, I did a screen recording 
of preparing a model in Sketchup Pro and Layout from start to finish. This is 
me preparing a real presentation package that will be used tomorrow at an 
in-house presentation by a sales rep. I ignored roof obstructions in the 
interest of time, but you can see in the video that I completed a viable 
presentation package in 10 minutes showing the maximum PV possible on a roof. 
The magic happens at 2:25 when the Instant Roof script does it's work. Here is 
a link to the video:

 

http://youtu.be/vs3ypUOe2_c

 

This is not sped up. I did take some minor liberties in the interest of time - 
I would typically spend about 5 minutes extra making sure dimensions are as 
accurate as possible. This particular address didn't have the sharpest imagery 
from Google Earth, but it was passable. I'll be well within 1' on all roof 
dimensions based on my past experience, and a few measurements from the ground 
can confirm accuracy level. I used Bing Maps to estimate a roof pitch of 5:12, 
which is pretty typical of the neighborhood I know this house to be within. 
Google street view is not available in this gated community. I assumed an 18 
eave, which I generally use as a generic dimension unless I know homes in a 
neighborhood to have

Re: [RE-wrenches] Heart Transverter

[Daniel Young]

We have 2 pre-UL units that we are swapping for newer UL listed units now on
our solar trailer. My experience right now is with the pre-UL prototypes
only. Will follow-up after we run the new units at a few events.

 

Good: The potential for this inverter is enormous. Eventually it will be
able to take commands from the utility (if they are so inclined to give
them) and can either buy/sell power to level out the demand on the utility
grid. And the flexibility of the DC and AC inputs allows for many system
configurations. A 4kw system (2 Heart transverters) each handle 2 DC
connections and 2 AC connections, any of which can be inputs or outputs. So
you can have up to 4 different DC attachments (wind/solar/fuel
cell/battery/dc pump/dump load, etc) and 4 ac connections which can also be
programmed to act in a variety of ways. And if you like data, the inverter
tracks everything that goes on inside (DC voltage/amperage/power, AC
voltage/amperage/power/power factor, it also has an AC oscilloscope so you
can examine the ac waveform of different loads)

 

Bad: The max DC voltage is about 40-50 volts DC, which means that you can
only have single module strings of PV attached, and a maximum 36V nominal
battery bank. This is no big deal on a small solar trailer setup like ours,
but a 4kw ground mount 100' from the building would start to get
unrealistic. That is probably the price to pay for the relatively universal
nature of the DC/AC interface.

 

Ugly: You need to figure out exactly HOW to program the inverter in order to
get it to even do basic MPPT, not to mention to do all of the other tasks it
can potentially perform. And unless you know how hexadecimal works in
relations to programming..not an easy task. There is a more user friendly
software for programming, but it too is a bit of a bear to install and get
working on most PC's (we tried 3 different computers, and only one was able
to run the software effectively) This last point may be a fluke based on the
fact we were dealing with beta software. We're about to turn on the new
units and see if things have been improved since we started working with
Heart several months ago.

 

All in all, we're still excited about the potential of this new inverter.
But up until now, it has been a bit rough around the edges in terms of user
friendliness. A bit of polishing, and this will be a killer product,
especially for saturated grids like Hawaii.

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

Lead Systems Designer for:

Dovetail Solar and Wind

 

From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On
Behalf Of Marco Mangelsdorf
Sent: Wednesday, May 21, 2014 7:54 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Heart Transverter

 

Hola,

 

Anyone have anything good, bad or ugly to say on this bugger?

 

Thanks,

marco

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Publicity rights?

[Daniel Young]

We had this happen a few years ago. The installer in question was NABCEP
certified. The use of other installers systems as promotional material, as
well as other less than ethical practices on the website were in breach of
the NABCEP code of ethics. So we notified NABCEP and they approached the
installer. The site was changed soon after.

 

If they're a certified installer, you can look at the NABCEP code of ethics
and see if you have grounds of bringing NABCEP into the mix.

 

Code of Ethics is on the 42nd page of this pdf:

http://www.nabcep.org/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/NABCEP_Certification_Handbo
ok_D7.1_05_13_2013.pdf

 

This could fall under section B: Professional Practice #10

[10. The NABCEP Certificant/Candidate will be truthful and accurate in all
advertising and 

representations concerning professional qualifications, experience,
competency, and performance of services, 

including representations related to professional status and/or areas of
competence. The NABCEP 

certificant/candidate will not make false or deceptive statements concerning
professional or occupational 

training, experience, competence, ability, academic training or degrees,
credentials, 

institutional or association affiliations, services, or fees for services]

 

With Regards,

 

Daniel Young, 

Dovetail Solar and Wind

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Will White
Sent: Tuesday, April 29, 2014 8:20 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Publicity rights?

 

We had a new competitor take a video of one of our installs (with owner's
permission) and post it on the front of their web page.  I believe it's
still there almost two years later.

 

It's a shady thing to do but I don't think there was anything we could
legally do to stop them.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Rebecca
Lundberg
Sent: Monday, April 28, 2014 6:34 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Publicity rights?

 

I have come across a new (small) installer taking photos of solar projects
that others installed, and promoting them on their web site in their
gallery without getting permission or giving any credit to the installer.
This seems unethical, and I'd like to be able to point to a law related to
this so that my sites are not used in this way. Even if a customer gives
this person permission to take a photo of their site, it doesn't make sense
that this installer could imply any credit for this project by using it on
their web site. Isn't there some kind of law that relates to this?

Thanks in advance for your input!

Keep Shining!


Rebecca Lundberg
NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installer R
Owner/President
Powerfully GreenR
763.438.1976 | rebecca.lundb...@powerfullygreen.com 

Powered by the Sun!

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

[Daniel Young]

Here is a link for a video where Mike Holt helps with an explanation to your 
question.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUXShMZJorQ

 

Essentially, the rapid shutdown needs to keep the energized length of 
conductors to within 10’ of the array if on the roof (this rule is only for 
arrays on buildings) or within 5’ of building penetration. I would assume that 
if you are 9’ on the roof, you then only have 1’ in the building before you 
need the shutdown device.

 

So micro inverters and some DC-DC optimizers should comply with the standard as 
is (since they prevent wires from being energized with DC voltage before they 
even leave the array). But string inverter systems will need to get creative 
with how they address this. Midnite solar disco combiners with the birdhouse 
seem to be a possible solution, but they add a lot of cost to some smaller 
systems that didn’t even need combiners before, let alone disconnect combiners 
with power supply cards and separate control boxes...

 

Hopefully a better solution for small string inverters is on the horizon. 

 

With Regards,

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org 
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Jeffrey 
Quackenbush
Sent: Tuesday, January 07, 2014 10:46 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: [RE-wrenches] NEC 2014 690.12 Rapid Shutdown

 

I've been going through the new Code book (which is in effect now in 
Massachusetts) and found myself somewhat puzzled by the intent of the new 
rapid shutdown requirement in 690.12. Does anyone have insight into how this 
is supposed to be interpreted and implemented? I've put together a list of my 
own questions, given below (the numbers reference the new 690.12 text). Thanks!

 

690.12 Rapid Shutdown

1.  Where should the rapid shutdown switch be located? (1) only says that the 
shutdown function should be installed if the circuit is longer than 10’ or goes 
more than 5’ into a building. If this condition is fulfilled, it says nothing 
about where the switch should be located. (2) says that controlled conductors 
should be limited to 30V, 240W, which will only be the case downline from the 
switch, so this may mean that  it should be located close to the source, i.e. 
on the roof. But this is just an inference, and one that doesn’t have clear 
boundaries; every source conductor for a series connected PV circuit (that is 
not Solar Edge, Enphase , etc.) will have a higher voltage and wattage 
potential when the sun is shining somewhere along its length, even if the 
disconnect is located very close to the array. Or does this requirement mean 
that all systems will need to have some kind of “smart” junction box, module 
DC-DC converter or module level AC inverter? Furthermore, individual modules 
often have higher voltages  wattages these days and there is no way to impose 
limits on their electrical characteristics in any field wired configurations. A 
listed AC module that sees the module leads as internal would be the only 
scenario that would be exempt.

 

2. (5) asks that equipment performing the shutdown should be listed and 
identified. Does that mean listed and identified for the purpose of this 
specific requirement? Or just listed and identified to limit voltage and 
wattage in 10 seconds? Does a specific UL standard exist for the function they 
have in mind? Does any equipment exist that has such listing and identification 
yet?

 

3. Is the rapid shutdown intended to be automatic or manual? If automatic, what 
are the parameters that would trigger the shutdown? If manual, are there any 
accessibility requirements?

 

4. Rapid shutdown seems more like a disconnect requirement than a circuit 
requirement. Why limit circuits to 30V, 240W, instead of just requiring a 
shutdown? Why 10 seconds, when all the disconnecting functions (i.e. manual 
disconnects, and internal AFCI, GFCI  UL 1740 disconnects) happen in less than 
a second? (It hardly seems like a “rapid” shutdown). Why write this article 
into section II rather than section III?

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] double-insulated PV wire

[Daniel Young]

I believe the only requirement for single exposed source circuit conductors
in an ungrounded PV system (which encompasses TL inverter systems) is that
they be listed (PV) wire until they reach an enclosure/raceway. That's a
paraphrase of 2011 690.35 (D). Double insulated wires are not mentioned
specifically, some listed PV wire is double insulated, some is not. 

 

Marco is right, in that some modules have listed PV wire whips, others just
use USE-2 or similar. If you don't want to get dinged by the rare inspector
that actually checks these things (essentially non-existent here in Ohio),
you better make sure your modules comply.

 

This is my understanding at least.

 

Daniel Young, 

NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

NABCEP Certified Solar Heating InstallerTM: Cert #SH031409-13

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Marco
Mangelsdorf
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 5:54 PM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] double-insulated PV wire

 

Note that this also assumes that the conductor whips from the modules ARE
ALSO double insulated if they're to be used with TL inverters.  Some mods
have 'em, some do not.

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of William
Miller
Sent: Friday, August 30, 2013 11:52 AM
To: 'RE-wrenches'
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] double-insulated PV wire

 

Marco:

 

 

Good point.  If one can position transition boxes close enough to the
modules, you can use only the leads from the modules, avoiding the need to
buy any PV wire.  It is surprisingly easy to do.  See:

 

http://www.millersolar.com/MillerSolar/practices/PV_wiring/PV_Cable_wiring/_
PV_Cable_Wiring.html

 

WM

 

 

double-insulated wire has to be used from the module series string to the
first enclosure and enclosed raceway where the transition to standard
THHN/THWN wire can be made.

 

marco

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] SHW expansion tank pressure

[Daniel Young]

Hey Carl,

 

You seem to be blowing the pressure relief valve. So raising the pressure in
the expansion tank would only make the problem worse. Did you test your
26psi expansion tank before you pressurized the system? If you did, the 4psi
difference (exp tank being lower) is the same way we do it. And if that's
what the manual says, then that's not the most likely source of you issues.

 

If not, you can't trust your pressure setting in the tank, just verify it
when the system is open (partially drained) so you are testing the precharge
with no pressure on the other side of the bladder.

 

But it does seem like you shouldn't be blowing the pressure release either
way. Those stainless steel line sets act as little expansion tanks
themselves, so you likely have more expansion room than you need. Have you
tested to see what the blowout pressure of the pressure release is? Using
compressed air or just pushing glycol in with your charging station with the
expansion tank isolated? That would be something to verify.

 

Last data point, you had 0psi and then 3 of glycol in the catch container.
How much glycol does it take to go from there, to 30psi? if it takes more
glycol than you have in the container, than you probably have a leak that
you haven't noticed yet. Those stainless steel linesets are very hard to
make 100% tight, especially in a steam back system like Schucos.

 

Daniel Young, 

Lead Systems Designer

Dovetail Solar  Wind

 http://www.dovetailsolar.com www.dovetailsolar.com

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Carl Adams
Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 2:18 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: [RE-wrenches] SHW expansion tank pressure

 

Hello SHW Wrenches,

 

I have a pressurized glycol system which is causing me some grief.  The
customer called for service after noticing the system pressure was down to 8
psi, and there was some fluid in the glycol catchment container.  I
inspected for system leaks and found non, recharged the system, and very
carefully bled all the air out of the system.  Left it run the afternoon and
came back next morning to check it.  Pressure was down a bit so I recharged
it and bled the air several more times.  Next day the customer reports the
pressure is down to 0 and there is 3 inches of glycol in the catchment
vessel.  I am beginning to suspect the pressure setting or size of the
expansion tank.

 

The system is a Schuco OG300 system, 115 gal tank, Schuco pump station, and
3 CTE 215 collectors (24k BTU/each  Clear day C rating).  I have a 50 foot
SS lineset between the pump station and the collectors with 26 feet of
elevation between the expansion tank and the collectors.  The expansion tank
is a Zimlet 18 liter tank pressurized to 26 PSI.  The system pressure is set
30 PSI.  These settings are as prescribed in the attached Schuco charging
chart.  The Schuco pump station shows 1.5 GPM flow when running (WIlo Star
21 pump set at speed 3).

 

In consult with another thermal installer he says he typically sets
expansion tank pressure about 5 psi higher than the system pressure.  I'd be
interested in others practices with regard to system/expansion tank pressure
and exp tank size.

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Boxes?

[Daniel Young]

Depending on the situation (you may have extremely picky inspectors), and
the customers concern with aesthetics, you can source large tool boxes from
Lowes or any other large home improvement center. They range from $100-$150
(here in the Midwest) and each one fits 4 x L-16 batteries, but they aren't
nearly as trim looking as those higher end purpose built boxes. They are
all plastic construction so there is no concern of short circuiting
terminals, and they will hold any spilled electrolyte. If you'd like a few
photos of what I'm talking about, contact me off-list. 

 

Danny

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of August Goers
Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2010 2:38 PM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Boxes?

 

Hi Wrenches -

 

We're seeing more and more interest in grid tied battery backup systems in
the Bay Area. Anyway, I'm finding that off the shelf battery boxes are quite
expensive - the products from MidNite Solar, DPW, etc are all really nice
but super pricey.

 

Any recommendations on battery boxes? We've been using L16 AGM batteries but
we might be going to a different size and shape. Any recommendations on
favorite batteries is also appreciated.

 

I hope you're all enjoying solar high season! 

 

Best,

 

August

 

 

August Goers

 

Luminalt Energy Corporation

1320 Potrero Avenue

San Francisco, CA 94110

m: 415.559.1525

o: 415.641.4000

aug...@luminalt.com

 

 

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Version: 9.0.830 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3002 - Release Date: 07/14/10
02:36:00

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[RE-wrenches] Battery Bank Off-gassing CO?

[Daniel Young]

I was emailed recently by someone in my area saying that she thinks here
battery bank is going bad and poisoning her home.. My firm did not install
her off grid system. Her original installer will not respond.

 

She has an 6yr old battery bank w/ 6 Trojan L16H's (48V). The system has
1.2kw of shell solar modules with an MX60 CC and FX Inverter. She noticed
feeling ill when in the basement where the system electronics were
installed, so she got out a combustion gas analyzer, (she is a home energy
auditor), and recorded over 500 ppm CO in the battery bank storage closet,
not the battery box, but the closet that stores the outback system. That is
over double the concentration that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission
considers deathly toxic. She reports this has been going on for the last 1-2
months. There is one battery box in this closet, with a 3 PVC vent pipe
going up to the roof. There is no power vent.

 

Has anyone heard of a flooded lead acid battery bank emitting CO? I did not
think that a lead/sulfur based battery was capable of this. Is it possible
that her combustion gas analyzer is mis-interpreting some other gas as CO?

 

We already plan to install a power vent at minimum, and to closely inspect
her ventilation system and improve it as needed. Just curious if anyone else
has seen this happen before.

 

Thanks,

 

Danny

 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank Off-gassing CO?

[Daniel Young]

 

By the way, it was a typo, it is an 8 battery system @48Vdc.

 

We just put in an order for a power vent, the home owner is going to install
this herself, as she is handy enough and has done PVC plumbing work before.
I will let the list know if this solves the issue or not. Also I plan to
have her install new CO detectors downstairs just in case the hydrogen
caused any damage to the sensors.

 

Thanks for the input.

 

 

Danny

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Ronald
Paredes
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 10:50 AM
To: RE-wrenches
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank Off-gassing CO?

 

Hello Daniel,

 

Unfortunately, I've had to deal with this issue in the past and after
countless hours of effort (end-users, fire departments, and my own), the
conclusion and/or corrective action has always been to replace the CO
detector. 

 

Carbon monoxide or other carbon oxides are not expected byproducts from a
lead-acid battery. Lead-acid batteries essentially have three active
materials, which broadly speaking are lead dioxide, spongy lead, and
sulfuric acid. Since no carbon exists in the active components, carbon
monoxide cannot be a byproduct of lead-acid batteries. Lead-acid batteries
do produce small amounts of oxygen and hydrogen while they are being
charged. Particularly, as the battery approaches the end of charge.  Most
battery designs will start producing oxygen when the battery reaches a state
of charge of about 70% SOC and will produce hydrogen at about 90% SOC. Both
gases will continue to be liberated until the charge is complete. 

 

Hydrogen has been known to be an interference gas for some CO detectors. The
sensing technology of CO detector will largely determine how much hydrogen
cross-sensitivity it will have, but there is also a hydrogen concentration
threshold that will trigger some CO detectors. In most cases, the problem
will go away if the end-user improves the ventilation of the room. 

 

Sounds like you are taking all the appropriate steps to resolve the problem.
Let me know how it goes. 

 

 

Best Regards,

 

Ronald Paredes

Technical Product Manager - Renewable Energy

Trojan Battery Company

 

12380 Clark Street 

Santa Fe Springs, CA 90670

Tel: (562)236-3000 Ext. 3066

Fax: (562)236-3279

 mailto:rpare...@trojanbattery.com rpare...@trojanbattery.com

 http://www.trojanbattery.com/ www.trojanbattery.com

 

Trojan Battery Company - Clean Energy for LifeT

 

From: re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Daniel Young
Sent: Tuesday, June 29, 2010 6:50 AM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Battery Bank Off-gassing CO?

 

I was emailed recently by someone in my area saying that she thinks here
battery bank is going bad and poisoning her home.. My firm did not install
her off grid system. Her original installer will not respond.

 

She has an 6yr old battery bank w/ 6 Trojan L16H's (48V). The system has
1.2kw of shell solar modules with an MX60 CC and FX Inverter. She noticed
feeling ill when in the basement where the system electronics were
installed, so she got out a combustion gas analyzer, (she is a home energy
auditor), and recorded over 500 ppm CO in the battery bank storage closet,
not the battery box, but the closet that stores the outback system. That is
over double the concentration that the US Consumer Product Safety Commission
considers deathly toxic. She reports this has been going on for the last 1-2
months. There is one battery box in this closet, with a 3 PVC vent pipe
going up to the roof. There is no power vent.

 

Has anyone heard of a flooded lead acid battery bank emitting CO? I did not
think that a lead/sulfur based battery was capable of this. Is it possible
that her combustion gas analyzer is mis-interpreting some other gas as CO?

 

We already plan to install a power vent at minimum, and to closely inspect
her ventilation system and improve it as needed. Just curious if anyone else
has seen this happen before.

 

Thanks,

 

Danny

 


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