Re: [RE-wrenches] lithium battery question

[Hugh Piggott]

First time I cycled my BYD batteries I got 20% more than rated kWh out of them. 
Based on third party Ah reading.

Hugh

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On 24 Aug 2020, 23:32, at 23:32, jay  wrote:
>
>Dear lithium experts
>
>Do lithium LFP or NMC batteries have a break in period ( a certain
>number of cycles or any other specific parameters) to have full
>capacity?
>
>Thx
>
>jay
>
>peltz power
>
>
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Re: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error

[Hugh Piggott]

Hi All,

Just to wrap this one up I can report that the problem was in the control board 
in this instance, and having replaced this board it is now working again.  
Thanks for all who helped with advice, especially Jay and Kris.

cheers
Hugh

Hugh Piggott
Scoraig Wind Electric
Dundonnell
Ross shire
IV23 2RE,  UK
+44 77 1315 7600
h...@scoraigwind.co.uk
www.scoraigwind.co.uk <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>




> On 9 Mar 2020, at 18:20, Ray  wrote:
> 
> We had one last year with a bad relay, the customer had been charging a Tesla 
> EV through it (pass through from the grid) and smoked the relay.  It was 
> pretty obvious, the clear relay cover was all covered on the inside with 
> burnt relay bits and smoke coating.
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/9/20 12:13 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote:
>> 
>> Hugh,
>>I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the meter 
>> on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out terminal.  I think 
>> Kent might be right that it may be the AC output relay.  It is odd though 
>> that there is no error message in your case.  This inverter had been 
>> tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with bad generators.  I was 
>> actually going to go up there and check it out some more as it is warm 
>> today. No heat in the cabin.  
>> 
>> John Blittersdorf
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg > <mailto:k...@coveoregon.com>> wrote:
>> Hugh,
>> 
>> I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on 
>> the ac board.
>> 
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote:
>>> Hi Wrenches,
>>> 
>>> I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here?
>>> 
>>> I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018.  It’s a 
>>> 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX.  It was working 
>>> well when disconnected.  I needed to replace the inverter system for other 
>>> reasons.
>>> 
>>> I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it 
>>> apparently worked when I left the building.
>>> 
>>> Now it’s not working.  When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures 
>>> sensor - fair enough I did not install one.  Maybe when it gets connected 
>>> to a generator it will be found a sensor.  This is the only error or fault 
>>> with a yes.
>>> 
>>> When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and 
>>> there is no error or warning in the Mate.  Just one problem - no output.  
>>> 
>>> Another weird thing.  I go to the status menu and check meters  
>>> STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”.  So it knows that it is 
>>> not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state 
>>> of affairs.  NO error, no warning, two green lights.
>>> 
>>> I tried rebooting with the battery fuse.  I tried resetting to factory 
>>> defaults.  No joy.
>>> 
>>> I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure 
>>> but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue?
>>> 
>>> cheers
>>> Hugh
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hugh Piggott
>>> Scoraig Wind Electric
>>> Dundonnell
>>> Ross shire
>>> IV23 2RE,  UK
>>> +44 77 1315 7600
>>> h...@scoraigwind.co.uk <mailto:h...@scoraigwind.co.uk>
>>> www.scoraigwind.co.uk <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error

[Hugh Piggott]

hi Everyone, and thanks for the support.

I took it apart and it is producing good sine wave up to the AC board but there 
is a black relay that is failing to close and it turns out that there is a 
light on the control board showing it is not even trying to close this relay, 
so that is why we are not seeing output at the terminals.  I propose to fit a 
new control board and hope that works.

This will be the second time I have been inside this inverter (since 2006) and 
maybe the fourth or fifth time I have replaced a board in a FX.  They are easy 
to work on, but my experience has been they do seem to need it.

cheers
Hugh
Scoraig
Scotland

> On 9 Mar 2020, at 18:20, Ray  wrote:
> 
> We had one last year with a bad relay, the customer had been charging a Tesla 
> EV through it (pass through from the grid) and smoked the relay.  It was 
> pretty obvious, the clear relay cover was all covered on the inside with 
> burnt relay bits and smoke coating.
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> On 3/9/20 12:13 PM, John Blittersdorf wrote:
>> 
>> Hugh,
>>I have one at my guest cabin doing the same thing except that the meter 
>> on the mate says I have 119 vac but nothing at the AC Out terminal.  I think 
>> Kent might be right that it may be the AC output relay.  It is odd though 
>> that there is no error message in your case.  This inverter had been 
>> tortured by the last tenants of the cabin with bad generators.  I was 
>> actually going to go up there and check it out some more as it is warm 
>> today. No heat in the cabin.  
>> 
>> John Blittersdorf
>> 
>> On Mon, Mar 9, 2020 at 1:00 PM Kent Osterberg > <mailto:k...@coveoregon.com>> wrote:
>> Hugh,
>> 
>> I've seen these symptoms before. The problem was a failed output relay on 
>> the ac board.
>> 
>> Kent Osterberg
>> Blue Mountain Solar
>> 
>> 
>> On 3/9/2020 9:25 AM, Hugh Piggott wrote:
>>> Hi Wrenches,
>>> 
>>> I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here?
>>> 
>>> I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018.  It’s a 
>>> 50Hz 240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX.  It was working 
>>> well when disconnected.  I needed to replace the inverter system for other 
>>> reasons.
>>> 
>>> I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it 
>>> apparently worked when I left the building.
>>> 
>>> Now it’s not working.  When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures 
>>> sensor - fair enough I did not install one.  Maybe when it gets connected 
>>> to a generator it will be found a sensor.  This is the only error or fault 
>>> with a yes.
>>> 
>>> When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and 
>>> there is no error or warning in the Mate.  Just one problem - no output.  
>>> 
>>> Another weird thing.  I go to the status menu and check meters  
>>> STATUS/FX/METER output voltage and it says “4V”.  So it knows that it is 
>>> not working but it appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state 
>>> of affairs.  NO error, no warning, two green lights.
>>> 
>>> I tried rebooting with the battery fuse.  I tried resetting to factory 
>>> defaults.  No joy.
>>> 
>>> I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure 
>>> but I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue?
>>> 
>>> cheers
>>> Hugh
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Hugh Piggott
>>> Scoraig Wind Electric
>>> Dundonnell
>>> Ross shire
>>> IV23 2RE,  UK
>>> +44 77 1315 7600
>>> h...@scoraigwind.co.uk <mailto:h...@scoraigwind.co.uk>
>>> www.scoraigwind.co.uk <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
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>&

[RE-wrenches] VFX produces no output with no error

[Hugh Piggott]

Hi Wrenches,

I wonder if anyone can tell me what is happening here?

I have an Outback VFX that I used for my own home from 2006-2018.  It’s a 50Hz 
240V unit, but similar otherwise to any other 48V VFX.  It was working well 
when disconnected.  I needed to replace the inverter system for other reasons.

I installed this for a neighbour recently on his 48V system, and it apparently 
worked when I left the building.

Now it’s not working.  When “off” it shows a warning for temperatures sensor - 
fair enough I did not install one.  Maybe when it gets connected to a generator 
it will be found a sensor.  This is the only error or fault with a yes.

When “on” it makes a reassuring buzz and both lights come up green and there is 
no error or warning in the Mate.  Just one problem - no output.  

Another weird thing.  I go to the status menu and check meters  STATUS/FX/METER 
output voltage and it says “4V”.  So it knows that it is not working but it 
appears to have no qualms or misgivings about this state of affairs.  NO error, 
no warning, two green lights.

I tried rebooting with the battery fuse.  I tried resetting to factory 
defaults.  No joy.

I suppose I will take it to pieces and try to figure out a hardware failure but 
I wonder if anyone has seen this and can give me a clue?

cheers
Hugh


Hugh Piggott
Scoraig Wind Electric
Dundonnell
Ross shire
IV23 2RE,  UK
+44 77 1315 7600
h...@scoraigwind.co.uk
www.scoraigwind.co.uk <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>




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Re: [RE-wrenches] heating lithium in cold weather

[Hugh Piggott]

I am trying out an insulated box and small heater. It doesn't get very cold
in West Coast scotland so 120W seems useful. Also automatic vents used on
greenhouses, to open up the sealed box.

On Fri 17 May 2019, 18:09 Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar, 
wrote:

> The risk may be worth it if the battery is inexpensive.
>
>  I have a client who has a neighbor who had to leave his home in Canada
> for a funeral. Things snowballed and the road washed out. He could not get
> home for a week and lost his well over 10K LFP battery. The battery logged
> the temp and warranty was void.
>
> I would want to see data over time before I used a battery that depended
> on the BMS for temp control. The other thing would be a company large
> enough to handle warranty if things got bad.
>
> The successful offgrid home people in cold climates are instructed by me
> to turn off the battery when they leave home and use a LA battery while
> they are gone.
>
> Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
>
> On Fri, 17 May 2019 08:58:42 -0700, frenergy  wrote:
> > Jay,
> >
> >  I would think this might be pretty riskyI think of the
> > difficulty in being sure all the cells were uniformly warmed.  I guess
> > if they were in an enclosure and the ambient in there was held at some
> > determined temp for ? (many) hours then one could assume? all the cells
> > were close in temp and safe to charge.  Of course there would have to be
>
> > some sort of regulation involved (oops I left the heater on in the
> > battery enclosure last week!)
> >
> > Bill
> >
> > Feather River Solar Electric
> > Bill Battagin, Owner
> > 4291 Nelson St.
> > Taylorsville, CA 95983
> > 530.284.7849
> > CA Lic 874049
> > www.frenergy.net
> >
> > On 5/16/2019 4:41 PM, jay wrote:
> >> HI All,
> >>
> >> I”m wondering if anyone has suggestions about how to charge a Lithium
> >> battery in RV or in this case Polarius in sub zero temps.
> >>
> >> Are there batteries that have heaters built in, or is it still a custom
> >> design issue to build a heating system?
> >> ( insulation and heaters)
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >>
> >> jay
> >>
> >> peltz power
> >>
> >>
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> --
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> "we go where powerlines don't"
> http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
> e-mail offgridso...@sti.net
> text 209 813 0060
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Voc for effective string?

[Hugh Piggott]

Hi All,

This is a very interesting thread for me.  I like low cost renewable energy, 
and I don’t jump to buy MPPT charge controllers when I believe that the setup I 
am planning works close to Vmpp inherently.  I find that the panels used for 
grid tie with Vmpp around 31V actually work beautifully here in Scotland on a 
sunny day.  Maybe in exceptional conditions there might be issues with 
equalising a battery but does this justify spending that much more on the 
system or settling for lower energy yield by buying controllers with money that 
can be spent on more modules?

So for best value (where wire runs are short) I would recommend using 2 
standard mass-produced panels/modules on a 48V system here in Scotland, and go 
with diversion charge control.  That’s another big issue over which I differ 
with the majority.  I like to maximise usage of renewable energy whereas most 
seem to ignore the surplus once the battery is charged.  Hardly any MPPT 
controllers have built-in facilities for diversion of surplus.  So in most 
cases I think the extra energy is rejected, while the homeowner burns propane 
to heat water.  A well-designed system will have plenty of surplus, or the 
battery will not last long.

OK so there could be issues with equalising batteries on solar-only systems, 
but most systems I design are hybrids.  And even the solar-only ones don’t seem 
to struggle in hot weather here.  And on the rare occasions when it is very hot 
in Scotland you are not going to feel any shortage of solar energy.  Days are 
long.  Charge current is low.

As I said it’s a very interesting thread on which I often feel like a lone 
heretic.

cheers
Hugh

> On 13 Sep 2018, at 02:55, Sindelar Solar  > wrote:
> 
> Bill and all,
> 
> To elaborate a bit on Ray's accurate suggestion with a bit of history... in 
> the early days the general consensus developed that for general use, 36 cells 
> (given that one cell produces just shy of 1/2 volt, regardless of cell size) 
> was the standard cell count for battery charging. This was based on the 
> understanding that a typical Vmp of 17.1-17.6 for a 36 cell module was 
> necessary to equalize a 12V FLA battery to ~15.5 VDC in hot ambient daytime 
> temperatures after all system losses due to various resistance in wire, 
> connections, controllers, etc., were accounted for. You'll occasionally see 
> early modules with 35, 33, 32 and even 30 cells, tried as "self-regulating" 
> modules - didn't work, as it couldn't account for voltage variations due to 
> temperature. Anyway, 36 cells is the default standard to charge a 12V 
> battery. Extrapolating from this, there's a direct correlation between cell 
> count and voltage in most applications: as 36 cells > 12Vnom, 72 cells > 24V 
> and 60 cells > 20Vnom. Go outside of these rules of thumb only with clear 
> understanding of these limitations. 
> 
> Three 60 cell modules is a nominal 80V; ideal for a 48 Vnom battery bank, 
> while still below the 150V limit of many standard controllers in record cold 
> temperatures. Three 72 cell modules, or 72 Vnom, is on the ragged edge of 
> voltage compliance in cold winter climates.
> 
> Allan
> 
> On 9/12/2018 10:30 AM, Ray wrote:
>> A 2nd option: A pair of 72 cell modules should be enough.
>> 
>> Ray Walters
>> Remote Solar
>> 303 505-8760
>> On 9/12/18 9:21 AM, Mac Lewis wrote:
>>> Hi Bill,
>>> 
>>> I agree with Allen. We get similar peak temps here and two 60 cell modules 
>>> doesn't charge a 48V battery bank adequately. This effect would become 
>>> worse over time with voltage degradation. I try to be at least 15% above 
>>> highest expected battery voltage with Vmp of the strings. With 150V input 
>>> limit on the Outback controllers, that leaves you with only one option, 
>>> strings of 3, with our low temps.
>>> 
>>> On Tue, Sep 11, 2018, 4:24 PM Sindelar Solar >> > wrote:
>>> Bill, I wouldn't, especially with FLAs. I have seen this situation here, 
>>> where the summer highs are similar, with a few homeowner/hack installations 
>>> and no, 60-cell modules will not finish the charge in hot weather. Strings 
>>> of three work just about perfect with modern charge controllers, especially 
>>> in winter, as they range high enough but well below 150VDC limits.
>>> 
>>> Allan
>>> 
>>> On 9/11/2018 4:04 PM, Bill Battagin wrote:
 I've been on hold with OB for about 40 minutes now and I need to know if 2 
 SW PVs with a Voc of 39.9 and a Vmpp of 31.3 will do an effective job of 
 charging a 48 volt LA battery especially with temps of 95 degrees.  
 Anybody have experience with this or similar,  Appreciate the feedback.  
 It just seems I'm a little low in Vmpp if I want to equalize when its hot. 
  Will it be even more questionable in 10 years as PVs age?
 
 OB did just pickup only to tell me I need Java for the string sizing tool 
 and he can't help me with this configuration.
 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Conext SW 4024 with bad firmware

[Hugh Piggott]

hi Lou,

I don’t wish to contradict this version of events but if true then it will make 
the inverter unsuitable for most generators.  Here is another scenario I have 
seen a few times that looks similar but can be fixed.

The inverter charges the battery etc. and decides to turn off the generator.  
It disconnects.  It may or may not have its own “cool down” time for the 
generator.  It then tells the generator to stop.  At this point the generator 
control circuit may decide to run a further cool down period.  Meantime 
incoming AC voltage is still visible to the inverter.  The inverter may then 
decide that it is obliged to connect to this running generator.  After any 
chosen “warm up period” it may go ahead and synch with the running generator 
and start to draw power just before and during the point where fuel is shut off 
and it dies.  This causes power quality problems and errors in some inverters.  
Maybe better firmware could fix this.  Victron inverters are designed to 
disconnect on a falling voltage every time, and they do so gracefully.  With 
SMA inverters and Outbacks it’s better avoided.

The best fix for this is to make sure that the generator does not have its own 
cool down period.  If you can access and edit this parameter in the generator 
this is best.  Another fix is to set a longer warmup time in the inverter 
software but this can cause issues where the generator is being started to meet 
a high load.  In the case of an SMA inverter you can get a fix to it using 
“genman mode”.

I just wonder if you have witnessed the process and checked whether the 
generator’s own built-in cool down period could be the cause.

cheers
Hugh

> On 30 Dec 2016, at 00:43, Lou Russo  wrote:
> 
> Thanks to all for the input and suggestions, it is much appreciated. Just to 
> be clear about the situation, the inverter has already made the AC transfer, 
> which goes smoothly. The AC IN light is off. At this point the generator is 
> unloaded and there is no battery charging happening. The inverter is carrying 
> the loads.  From what Schnieder tells me is that the software is telling the 
> inverter to follow the Hertz of the generator until it's below 40 Hertz. 
> 
> I do believe that manual start is best as it keeps the user in tune with 
> system. It is what I do at my own home. Unfortunately most clients want the 
> autostart and don't want to think about it. This is typically not deal 
> breaker for me and I will push a client only so far on it. In this particular 
> situation the system is 500 ft away from the home. So the autostart is 
> mandatory. 
> 
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Grid neutral

[Hugh Piggott]

hi Allan,

One fact that might be useful to consider is that a three phase supply has 3 
hot/live/active wires and one neutral.  The 3 currents returning to the neutral 
actually cancel each other out (due to phase differences) and in a perfectly 
balanced load situation there is no need for a neutral, but where a number of 
diverse circuits are connected there will be some imbalance, so you need a wire 
there, but it need not be as heavy as the 3 “hot" ones.

cheers
Hugh

Hugh Piggott
Scoraig Wind Electric
Dundonnell
Ross shire
IV23 2RE,  UK
+44 77 1315 7600
h...@scoraigwind.co.uk
www.scoraigwind.co.uk <http://www.scoraigwind.co.uk/>



> On 26 Nov 2016, at 01:27, Allan Sindelar  wrote:
> 
> Wrenches,
> Is there such a thing as a "grid neutral"? I have been providing design 
> support to a client for a large off grid system; a prepper, rare in these 
> parts. He claims that utility current is carried in part through the ground 
> and in part through a neutral conductor, and such a "utility neutral" is 
> deliberately undersized. At first I pushed back (see below). Now I just 
> wonder what Wrenches more knowledgeable than I am will say.
> Thank you,
> Allan
> 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@sindelarsolar.com <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Founder (Retired), Positive Energy, Inc.
> 505 780-2738 cell
> 
>  Forwarded Message 
> Date: Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:25:36 -0700
> 
> Allan
> Happy thanksgiving. Sorry for the slow reply; overwhelmed here.
>  
> All wet sorry. If you look at the power lines you will see two or three wires 
> at top of pole and the one smaller one a little ways down the pole. This is 
> the power station neutral.
>  
> The hots bidirectional is an explanation that helps people understand current 
> but is not totally clear.
> Even if you use that visualization in order for the electrons on the hot to 
> oscillate they heed a path to oscillate into and out of
> That is the “neutral”. 
>  
> Bottom line is from the power station and in your home you have at least one 
> hot and one neutral.
> You can actually use the hot to light up a lite bulb by connecting the other 
> side of the lite bulb to the earth.
> This one way you can get electrocuted.
> I touched the hot side of a 220 circuit and the current went thru me and into 
> the earth…not much fun.
>  
> This has been openly publicly discussed and one of the electrical association 
> advised the power companies to increase the size of the neutral to solve many 
> issues, such as cows giving less milk and problems with electric current in 
> homes. The power companies even openly discuss this.
>  
> In remote rural areas of Australia, I have seen electricity distribution 
> using SWER (Single-Wire Earth Return); just one wire is fed to the property 
> at a high voltage, with the current returning via the ground.  At the 
> property, a transformer turns the high voltage into normal residential 
> voltages on a pair of wires (230VAC in Australia vs 2x115V in some other 
> countries). But this SWER system is inefficient, and the supply voltage is 
> poorly regulated; it is a rare exception - it is only done because of the 
> high cost of delivering two wires in remote areas.
>  
> In metropolitan areas, you will typically see 4 wires passing down the 
> street. This consists of three phases of "Active", plus a "Neutral". You 
> could imagine the Active carrying current "from" the power grid, and the 
> Neutral carrying the current "back to" the power grid (even though the 
> current flow is symmetrical).
>  
> There is lots of info online if you wish to learn more about this.
> Take care, Robert
>  
> From: Allan Sindelar [mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com 
> <mailto:al...@sindelarsolar.com>] 
> Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2016 10:18 PM
>  
> Robert,
> I'm neither an electrical engineer or a utility employee, so I may be all wet 
> here, and if so please dry me off with a straight-up explanation. But this 
> whole argument seems specious to me, as it addresses a "grid neutral". 
> 
> My reasoning is this - there is no such animal as a "grid neutral" in utility 
> lines, so how is this issue even relevant? The "hots" are bidirectional; only 
> when the utility power is stepped down at the transformer at the home is a 
> reference neutral created. To say that the current "cannot all go back thru 
> the neutral since it is not large enough BY DESIGN" seems to me an absurd 
> concept since there is no neutral in utility power distrib

Re: [RE-wrenches] New washers and dishwashers on inverter power -any problems?

[Hugh Piggott]

Yes I agree but PV is getting so cheap!  We do keep our gas stove, but most of 
our cooking is being done in the halogen oven.   This is a big glass bowl that 
doesn't look as if it is more than a passing gimmick, but literally most of our 
cooking has happened in it over the last year.  Try it!

Having a huge windmill that doesn't ever seem to break (weird?) helps of 
course.  

By the way in case anyone thought the second inverter was a problem for our 
dishwasher... that's not what I meant to say, but the washer and most of our 
stuff ran fine on just one VFX.  The second one is just good for peak usage and 
the fact that there is another house connected.

good times!  My favorite thing (almost) about renewable energy is the fact that 
sometimes there is way too much of it.
Hugh

On 7 Dec 2014, at 16:43, frenergy wrote:

> Hugh,
>  
> We've done a similar scenario around here the last several years, 
> even charging an electric car.  However, there is certainly more to the story 
> than an added inverter, eh? I've also added PVs (lots for the car) from the 
> days of heavy propane use. And I know that some of the incentive to reduce 
> the use of propane and add electric appliances is that occasionally we'll 
> have a great hydro year ("Omigosh the batteries are boiling, there's 4KW 
> coming in from PV and 600 watts at the hydro...buy that convection oven...do 
> some electric space heating!!)
>  
> For us the dance has been to have both available so, rather than run 
> the genny, use a little propane to cook or whatever.
>  
> A halogen oven?  uh, oh I guess I'm still living under a rock.  Help 
> me with that one.
>  
> Bill
> Taylorsville
> - Original Message -
> From: Hugh Piggott
> To: RE-wrenches
> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:30 AM
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] New washers and dishwashers on inverter power -any 
> problems?
> 
> We have a pair of VFX inverters and we run an LG dishwasher which is great - 
> quiet direct drive -  uses about 0.7kWh for a wash (and about 0.2 per 24 
> hours sitting there looking inert :-()  It worked fine before the second 
> inverter was added actually.  As did the induction hob and the halogen oven.  
> Both great ways to save on propane gas consumption.  In fact we hardly use 
> gas any more.  We just bought a 3kW electric oven, and so long as the wind is 
> blowing that's available too.
> 
> It seems to me that using propane to avoid using renewable energy is backward 
> thinking these days.  LPG is the last resort for us.
> 
> Hugh
> 
> On 4 Dec 2014, at 01:14, Dave wrote:
> 
>> I'm looking at Bosch # 16083 ($ 765) dishwasher - any problems running this 
>> on OutBack inverter power?
>> and also a Samsung, or LG, front load clothes washer. I'm a little gun shy 
>> with these fancy machines because of all of their electronic controls as I 
>> have memories of the Maytag Neptunes several years ago being a horror show 
>> on inverter power.
>> Thanks for your input,
>> Dave Palumbo
>> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
>> Behalf Of Dan Fink
>> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 8:21 PM
>> To: RE-wrenches
>> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Appliances for off-grid home
>> Hi Dave;
>> The last couple times I speced dishwashers for off-grid clients, I ended up 
>> doing it right from EnergyGuide ratings. No longer have to order expensive 
>> stuff from Europe or Australia, some USA-made models are right in there.
>> Battery spark ignition propane ranges are still very limited -- 
>> Premier/Peerless is OK, so is Summit Appliance, but with Summit  customer 
>> service and spare part availability are dismal. Unique OffGrid (Canada) 
>> looks really nice, but I'm waiting for someone else to try them before I 
>> recommend them. I may guinea pig myself on Unique. Everything else I've 
>> tried has been just plain awfuloven thermostats that need replacing 
>> every couple years, leaky valves, etc. They are cheap and intended for cheap 
>> apartment landlords who buy them 30 at a time.
>> I require sealed burners, and a solid burner great is awesome.
>> If your client doesn't need an oven, there are plenty of fancy expensive 
>> drop-in cooktops at the high-end foodie kitchen stores, but all the wall 
>> ovens I've found there have a glowbar. 
>> Finally, there's marine galley stoves and ovens. But very pricey, and tiny 
>> ovens. You're paying for gimballed mounts that you only need on a boat.
>> Best of luck.
>> 
>> Dan Fink
>> Buckville Energy
>> IREC Certified Instructor™ 

Re: [RE-wrenches] New washers and dishwashers on inverter power - any problems?

[Hugh Piggott]

We have a pair of VFX inverters and we run an LG dishwasher which is great - 
quiet direct drive -  uses about 0.7kWh for a wash (and about 0.2 per 24 hours 
sitting there looking inert :-()  It worked fine before the second inverter was 
added actually.  As did the induction hob and the halogen oven.  Both great 
ways to save on propane gas consumption.  In fact we hardly use gas any more.  
We just bought a 3kW electric oven, and so long as the wind is blowing that's 
available too.

It seems to me that using propane to avoid using renewable energy is backward 
thinking these days.  LPG is the last resort for us.

Hugh

On 4 Dec 2014, at 01:14, Dave wrote:

> I'm looking at Bosch # 16083 ($ 765) dishwasher - any problems running this 
> on OutBack inverter power?
>  
> and also a Samsung, or LG, front load clothes washer. I'm a little gun shy 
> with these fancy machines because of all of their electronic controls as I 
> have memories of the Maytag Neptunes several years ago being a horror show on 
> inverter power.
>  
> Thanks for your input,
> Dave Palumbo
>  
> From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On 
> Behalf Of Dan Fink
> Sent: Monday, December 01, 2014 8:21 PM
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Appliances for off-grid home
>  
> Hi Dave;
>  
> The last couple times I speced dishwashers for off-grid clients, I ended up 
> doing it right from EnergyGuide ratings. No longer have to order expensive 
> stuff from Europe or Australia, some USA-made models are right in there.
>  
> Battery spark ignition propane ranges are still very limited -- 
> Premier/Peerless is OK, so is Summit Appliance, but with Summit  customer 
> service and spare part availability are dismal. Unique OffGrid (Canada) looks 
> really nice, but I'm waiting for someone else to try them before I recommend 
> them. I may guinea pig myself on Unique. Everything else I've tried has been 
> just plain awfuloven thermostats that need replacing every couple years, 
> leaky valves, etc. They are cheap and intended for cheap apartment landlords 
> who buy them 30 at a time.
> I require sealed burners, and a solid burner great is awesome.
>  
> If your client doesn't need an oven, there are plenty of fancy expensive 
> drop-in cooktops at the high-end foodie kitchen stores, but all the wall 
> ovens I've found there have a glowbar. 
>  
> Finally, there's marine galley stoves and ovens. But very pricey, and tiny 
> ovens. You're paying for gimballed mounts that you only need on a boat.
>  
> Best of luck.
> 
> Dan Fink
> Buckville Energy
> IREC Certified Instructor™ for: 
> ~ PV Installation Professional
> ~ Small Wind Installer
> NABCEP / IREC / ISPQ Accredited Continuing Education Providers™
> 970.672.4342
> 
>  
>  
> On Mon, Dec 1, 2014 at 1:34 PM, Dave  wrote:
> I'm looking for a recommendation for an efficient dishwasher to be powered by 
> an OutBack inverter.
>  
> Also, I need to buy another LP gas range for off-grid use. I have been using 
> the Peerless-Premier line because they could be ordered without the electric 
> glow bar in the oven. Are they any more choices these days in LP ranges?
>  
> Thanks,
> Dave
>  
> David Palumbo
> Independent Power LLC
> 462 Solar Way Drive
> Hyde Park, VT 05655
> 802-888-7194
>  
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] common ground on fm80 aux output?

[Hugh Piggott]

thanks, Jay,

Yes the FM80 can do pwm.  BTW I'd like to know the frequency?  I could use that 
to drive a SSR relay directly but my assumption would be it would cause the 
lights to flicker?  Not so?  I think that once triggered on they stay on for a 
full half cycle.  It'd be simpler to do this for sure.

I would check the potential of the aux negative but I don't have any such 
controllers here on scoraig and I want to know the score before I go on site to 
install the SSR.

thanks to all
Hugh

On 6 Dec 2014, at 00:09, jay peltz wrote:

> Hi Hugh
> 
> I use 3-32vdc SS relays all the time powered from the AUX relay ( xantex, 
> classic,outback). 
> They work just fine in fast and slow PWM 
> And switching both AC or DC, with correct relay of course. 
> 
> As to connecting the ground, that I can't tell you. But your ohm meter should 
> tell you no?
> 
> Jay
> Peltz power
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On Dec 5, 2014, at 2:09 PM, Hugh Piggott  wrote:
> 
>> Hi Hugh again
>> Just to clarify the set up:
>> The SSR controls the AC power from the inverter to the heating load.  It 
>> switches partway through each half cycle and thus controls the power to the 
>> load.
>> The input to the SSR requires a power supply 8-32 V present all the time it 
>> is working.  I suppose it might be feasible to take this from  the AUX but 
>> as this will be pulsing PWM I don't want to rely on that.  Its a supply 
>> voltage to the input and not a control signal and for that reason I want to 
>> take it from the main battery which happens to be a 24 volt one which is 
>> ideal.
>> The control signal is 0-10 volts DC and this controls the amount of power 
>> the unit delivers smoothly.  I want to get this from a capacitor that 
>> charges off the aux output so that is turns the PWM into an analog voltage 
>> signal that controls the SSR and controls the load.  I do this all the time 
>> with tristar outputs so it does work.  I have just never done it with the 
>> AUX of a FM80 controller.
>> 
>> So my question again is simply this.  Can I connect the ground of the AUX to 
>> the inverter batter ground negative?  Most likely it is already connected, 
>> but I'd like to know if connecting it will damage the FM80.  I am also 
>> trying the outback forum.
>> 
>> thanks for any help
>> Hugh
>> 
>> On 5 Dec 2014, at 18:44, Hugh Piggott wrote:
>> 
>>> hi wrenches,
>>> 
>>> I am installing some load controls for a client who has a FM80 controller. 
>>> I don't have experience with this product. It has a 12V aux output that I 
>>> wish to drive an SSR but the wiring is complicated by the fact that this 
>>> SSR also needs a power supply as well as a control signal. I want to use 
>>> 24V nominal system battery for the SSR power and AUX for the signal. Can I 
>>> connect the grounds together?
>>> 
>>> Additional info. I am using a phase control SSR driven by a 0-10 volt 
>>> signal to control an AC load with phase angle shift control. I plan to put 
>>> an RC filter that converts the PWM output of the AUX from the CC to give an 
>>> analog voltage output that determines the loading of the inverter. Crydom 
>>> MCPC2450
>>> 
>>> thanks for any help before I go on site next week
>>> Hugh
>>> ___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] common ground on fm80 aux output?

[Hugh Piggott]

Hi Hugh again
Just to clarify the set up:
The SSR controls the AC power from the inverter to the heating load.  It 
switches partway through each half cycle and thus controls the power to the 
load.
The input to the SSR requires a power supply 8-32 V present all the time it is 
working.  I suppose it might be feasible to take this from  the AUX but as this 
will be pulsing PWM I don't want to rely on that.  Its a supply voltage to the 
input and not a control signal and for that reason I want to take it from the 
main battery which happens to be a 24 volt one which is ideal.
The control signal is 0-10 volts DC and this controls the amount of power the 
unit delivers smoothly.  I want to get this from a capacitor that charges off 
the aux output so that is turns the PWM into an analog voltage signal that 
controls the SSR and controls the load.  I do this all the time with tristar 
outputs so it does work.  I have just never done it with the AUX of a FM80 
controller.

So my question again is simply this.  Can I connect the ground of the AUX to 
the inverter batter ground negative?  Most likely it is already connected, but 
I'd like to know if connecting it will damage the FM80.  I am also trying the 
outback forum.

thanks for any help
Hugh

On 5 Dec 2014, at 18:44, Hugh Piggott wrote:

> hi wrenches,
> 
> I am installing some load controls for a client who has a FM80 controller. I 
> don't have experience with this product. It has a 12V aux output that I wish 
> to drive an SSR but the wiring is complicated by the fact that this SSR also 
> needs a power supply as well as a control signal. I want to use 24V nominal 
> system battery for the SSR power and AUX for the signal. Can I connect the 
> grounds together?
> 
> Additional info. I am using a phase control SSR driven by a 0-10 volt signal 
> to control an AC load with phase angle shift control. I plan to put an RC 
> filter that converts the PWM output of the AUX from the CC to give an analog 
> voltage output that determines the loading of the inverter. Crydom MCPC2450
> 
> thanks for any help before I go on site next week
> Hugh
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[RE-wrenches] common ground on fm80 aux output?

[Hugh Piggott]

hi wrenches,

I am installing some load controls for a client who has a FM80 controller. I 
don't have experience with this product. It has a 12V aux output that I wish to 
drive an SSR but the wiring is complicated by the fact that this SSR also needs 
a power supply as well as a control signal. I want to use 24V nominal system 
battery for the SSR power and AUX for the signal. Can I connect the grounds 
together?

Additional info. I am using a phase control SSR driven by a 0-10 volt signal to 
control an AC load with phase angle shift control. I plan to put an RC filter 
that converts the PWM output of the AUX from the CC to give an analog voltage 
output that determines the loading of the inverter. Crydom MCPC2450

thanks for any help before I go on site next week
Hugh___
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Re: [RE-wrenches] "Extra Low Voltage"

[Hugh Piggott]

Me again,

Maybe that was confusing.  Just to clarify this question, I will break it down 
as follows:
What qualifications do you need to legally work on electrical systems in your 
country/state?
Is the circuit voltage a factor, and if there is a different rule for ELV 
systems, then how is ELV defined?
What other factors are applicable such as status (homeowner, installer, 
paid/unpaid) and location (inside home, wet location, etc)?
Thanks for any observations.

Hugh

On 5 Mar 2014, at 08:34, Hugh Piggott wrote:

> hi All,
> 
> I am trying to find some general statements that can be made about the global 
> legal position on who may or may not work on/install "extra low voltage" 
> (ELV) systems or equipment such as batteries, PV, turbines etc.
> 
> I understand that in the USA this is a matter for state legislation rather 
> than federal.  I'd be interested to learn what rules people follow regarding 
> such work and who can do it, for themselves or for money, in what environment 
> (inside or outside the home for example, dry or wet etc) and at what 
> voltages?  The definition of ELV seems to change depending on various 
> factors, one of which is whether it is "separated" (floating and well 
> insulated) or not.
> 
> Many of us work with battery systems, and not everyone is a certified 
> electrician.  I'd love to know some ground rules.
> 
> thanks!
> 
> Hugh
> 
> 
> Hugh Piggott
> Scoraig Wind Electric
> Dundonnell
> Ross shire
> IV23 2RE,  UK
> +44 77 1315 7600
> h...@scoraigwind.co.uk
> www.scoraigwind.co.uk
> 
> 
> 
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[RE-wrenches] "Extra Low Voltage"

[Hugh Piggott]

hi All,

I am trying to find some general statements that can be made about the global 
legal position on who may or may not work on/install "extra low voltage" (ELV) 
systems or equipment such as batteries, PV, turbines etc.

I understand that in the USA this is a matter for state legislation rather than 
federal.  I'd be interested to learn what rules people follow regarding such 
work and who can do it, for themselves or for money, in what environment 
(inside or outside the home for example, dry or wet etc) and at what voltages?  
The definition of ELV seems to change depending on various factors, one of 
which is whether it is "separated" (floating and well insulated) or not.

Many of us work with battery systems, and not everyone is a certified 
electrician.  I'd love to know some ground rules.

thanks!

Hugh


Hugh Piggott
Scoraig Wind Electric
Dundonnell
Ross shire
IV23 2RE,  UK
+44 77 1315 7600
h...@scoraigwind.co.uk
www.scoraigwind.co.uk




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Re: [RE-wrenches] 75W module match

[Hugh Piggott]

I have installed a lot of BP 380 and BP 485 panels that I think have the same 
frames.  But it's all on a what you can find basis now since they have given up 
on the retail market, I am told.

cheers

Hugh (with a nice array of 275s still doing good work on my old house)

On 13 Apr 2012, at 23:17, Allan Sindelar wrote:

> Wrenches,
> We installed many systems using BP modules back in the late 1990s. The 
> standard building block of the time was the BP 275, the single-crystal 12V 
> 36-cell module of that time. The frame size was 21.1" by 47.6", I think.
> 
> What modern panels have compatible specifications and dimensions? We will 
> occasionally have need to either replace one or to fill out  partially-filled 
> rack from that era. The current need is to increase an array of two BP75s on 
> a LPRGM rack with capacity for six.
> 
> Ameresco has the license to reproduce some of the BP module line now that BP 
> has discontinued production, but this module is not one of those available 
> and the nearest match is quite pricey. Before ordering it I'd like to know if 
> another substitute is available.
> Thank you,
> Allan
> -- 
> Allan Sindelar
> al...@positiveenergysolar.com
> NABCEP Certified Photovoltaic Installer
> NABCEP Certified Technical Sales Professional
> New Mexico EE98J Journeyman Electrician
> Positive Energy, Inc.
> 3201 Calle Marie
> Santa Fe, New Mexico 87507
> 505 424-1112
> www.positiveenergysolar.com
> 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] small wind generators

[Hugh Piggott]

Interesting thread!

We are having some success with a Kestrel turbine here on Scoraig

I second the idea that Ampair offer a modest but very robust range of products 
for high wind sites.

cheers


Hugh Piggott

On 3 Apr 2012, at 20:36, Richard L Ratico wrote:

> Does anyone have any experience with Kestrel Wind Turbines?
> 
> Dick Ratico
> Solarwind Electric
> 
> 
> --- You wrote:
> SWWP has changed their turbines again. They are now called the the Air 30, Air
> 40 and Air Breeze. The 30 is like the old X land, the 40 is like the old 
> Breeze
> Land and the Breeze is like the old Breeze Marine. The Breeze is the only 
> marine
> model available. Confusing enough? The 40 and Breeze have a limited lifetime
> warranty and all have a new, higher price. 
> 
> Historically the Air products have lasted fairly well and been moderate
> performers. Air X and Air Breeze parts are still available but SWWP has
> discontinued support for all other models. We service, sell and recommend them
> for small PV/wind hybrid systems. AND...they are still USA made! Hurrah!
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Solar Power Systems
> (928) 342-9103
> 
> On Apr 3, 2012, at 7:04 AM, Roy Butler wrote:
> 
> Hi Drake,
> 
> The Air 403/ Air-X/ Air Breeze/ whatever it's name is now, is fairly 
> dependable.
> In most wind regimes it's the equivalent of a 10 or 20 watt solar module but
> seems to work just fine. FYI- it's ~ 200 watts or so.
> 
> It's not the quietest thing though, being a fairly high rpm turbine.
> 
> But the Sunforce 600 is not a 600. The rotor diameter tells the truth, making 
> it
> somewhere around a 200 - 250 watt machine. Perhaps they have the bugs worked
> out but when they first came out, there were many reliability and performance
> issues.
> 
> What's the application for this?
> Roy Butler
> --- end of quote ---
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Re: [RE-wrenches] DC power for LED lighting

[Hugh Piggott]

H Dan,

On 17 Dec 2011, at 00:02, Dan Fink wrote:

>  parallel connections are BAD with LEDs, and the string with the most voltage 
> will eventually fail first, so best practice is regulate every string.

This statement puzzles me so I wonder if you could clarify it for me?  If you 
connect two strings of LEDs (or batteries) together in parallel then their 
voltage will be the same.  So how come you are talking about one having more 
voltage? 

If the answer is that it's absolutely impossible to make the connections and 
leads have the same resistance then this same logic applies to two strings that 
are connected each to its own regulated supply.  If a tiny difference in 
voltage matters (which I doubt) then you will have the same issues with a 
single string.

What am I missing?

thanks

Hugh

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