Re: [RE-wrenches] Discover AES explosion!

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Hi Michael,

For 11 years I’ve been in the Li battery business. We formerly designed and 
installed over a hundred Li battery based systems, mostly mobile installations 
but UPS and off-grid as well. Since 2018, we no longer do installations.  
Currently we sell our own Li-ion brand with many thousands sold and in use. We 
have not had any fire or explosion claims.

Most Li batteries sold in the US are not UL1973 or ETL certified. Many 
batteries are very cheaply made to have the lowest price. Based on my 
experience I consider any battery not certified as potentially dangerous. I 
don’t know if Discover is certified and make no statement about them. 

An important question is what will an insurance company do if there is a claim 
and the product you install is not certified to these high safety standards? 
Worth considering.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems




On May 3, 2024, at 8:21 AM, Michael Morningstar via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Two days ago, one of my clients came home to find the door of his powershed 
blown off its hinges and a smoldering Discover AES. The case was still intact 
and the entire room is coated with a fine graphite-like powder. The fire 
department was unable/unwilling to do anything to cool the battery down and it 
smoldered for a day. 199 degrees fahrenheit after 18 hours. Discover is taking 
this seriously and their response has been great. They are in contact with the 
cell manufacturer to find a "best practices" for the clean up of the room. They 
also have said that this is a first for them (lucky me).

I'm just curious how rare or common LiFePO 4 explosions are? I've never heard 
of one in the context of residential storage. This has me pretty freaked out.

Michael Morningstar 

Morningstar Electric Inc
PO Box 1494
Mount Shasta, CA 96067
530-921-0560
CSLB 1116835
mjmornings...@gmail.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cable sizing for high current modules? NEC interpretation/guidance?

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Choosing a higher insulation rating for the wire will increase current 
capability, if that works in your case.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Nov 8, 2023, at 10:06 AM, George McClellan via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Team;
 
With the move to larger cells, some modules have an Isc that is pushing the 
limits of 12 AWG wire.  If I apply the rule of 156% (or 125% solar derate*125% 
continuous load derate) to an 18 Amp Isc module this will exceed the 25A that a 
12 AWG wire can carry.  I understand that the homeruns will need to be a larger 
AWG (10 ga), but do the solar module cables (from junction box to MC4) also 
need to be larger?  Any guidance or reference material would be greatly 
appreciated.
 
Thx,
 
George McClellan | Senior Technical Sales Manager | REC Americas LLC
330 James Way Ste 150 | Pismo Beach, CA 93449 | USA
Cell phone +1 805 704 3226 | Fax +1 805 357 6104 
www.recgroup.com  | george.mcclel...@recgroup.com 

 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Sorry Dan, I meant Ron.

On Oct 31, 2023, at 11:08 AM, Starlight via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Dan,

Since you are using 120Vac for the source, did you connect to just 1 AC input; 
AC1 or AC2?  You can not parallel same phase to both inputs or damage may 
occur. 

Have you measured the generator frequency and voltage at the inverter input? 
Make sure to reduce the charge rate to 50% or less when supplying 120V only. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems



On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:56 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input 
from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw 
cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda 
problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging 
generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd 
in voltage or frequency from any of the generators.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
danbo...@gmail.com <mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>
970-672-4342

 


On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was 
installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door 
on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had 
to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. 
Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each 
way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very 
limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day 
checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the 
connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the 
breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some 
connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the 
property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was 
faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME 
PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor 
could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible 
there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from 
initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode 
even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between 
the monitor and inverter but no luck. 

The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. 
Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the 
past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to 
test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass 
is consistent and without problem.

Any suggestions - this is just confounding.

Ron


earthRight Products - Solareagle.com <http://solareagle.com/>

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum problem

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Dan,

Since you are using 120Vac for the source, did you connect to just 1 AC input; 
AC1 or AC2?  You can not parallel same phase to both inputs or damage may 
occur. 

Have you measured the generator frequency and voltage at the inverter input? 
Make sure to reduce the charge rate to 50% or less when supplying 120V only. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems



On Oct 31, 2023, at 10:56 AM, Dan Fink via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

I have had issues before with Magnum inverter/chargers not accepting AC input 
from certain generators. In one case, it would not charge from a Honda 3kw 
cube, but worked fine with camp’s Honda 2kw. Magnum said it was a Honda 
problem, Honda said it was a Magnum problem. We ended up just rearranging 
generators and inverters between camps. Weird, we never detected anything odd 
in voltage or frequency from any of the generators.

Dan Fink
Owner, Buckville Energy Consulting LLC
IREC Certified Instructor for PV and Small Wind Installation
NABCEP Certified PV System Inspector
NABCEP PV Associate
danbo...@gmail.com 
970-672-4342

 


On Tue, Oct 31, 2023 at 11:39 AM Ron Young via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

I am completely stumped. I built a Magnum 4448 panel for a client and it was 
installed by an electrician. It was thoroughly tested before going out the door 
on all functions and pre-programmed for the off-grid site. Electrician just had 
to hang it on the wall and make 4 connections, AC IN, AC OUT, BATTERY, PV. 
Somehow the system wouldn’t go into charge mode. The site is a 3 hour trip each 
way. The electrician was baffled, he had experience installing solar but very 
limited so I went to the site to see what the problem was. After spending a day 
checking out the inverter with two different generators, checking all the 
connections, AC at the inputs at the inverter and at the outputs on the 
breakers, and even removed the cover from the inverter to make sure some 
connections had not shaken loose inside the box on the long bumpy road into the 
property. Everything checked out. So assuming the AC board in the inverter was 
faulty I ordered a new unit to replace and that has now been done. SAME 
PROBLEM! I’m wondering now if it’s possible that the Magnum remote monitor 
could be the problem. It functions properly on every setting but is it possible 
there is an internal fault? Could it prevent the automatic charge cycle from 
initiating? Seems unlikely to me because the inverter can go into charge mode 
even without the monitor. I also tried replacing the connection cable between 
the monitor and inverter but no luck. 

The generators are both small, one a Honda 2kW and the other a Champion 3.8kW. 
Neither is ideal but I have had no issues with these types of generators in the 
past and the client has ordered a larger 10kW unit but we don’t have it yet to 
test. Generators have been run with Eco Mode off. Output to the house on bypass 
is consistent and without problem.

Any suggestions - this is just confounding.

Ron


earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] 70-100 amp relay

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

I'm sold on Gigavac quality. I’m not sure if they have the AC coil option. 

https://www.sensata.com/products/gigavac-power-contactors-fuses/gv-contactors

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Oct 3, 2023, at 12:05 PM, jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi All,

I’ve gotten approval from Atkinson using their GSCM for warmup/cool down for a 
generator.  

Now I”m in search of a 70-100 amp 120v-240v coil DPSP NO relay/contactor.

There are lots out there but thought someone might have one they highly 
recommend. 

It won’t get used much at all.

Thanks

jay


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Charger recommendations

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Iota DLS converters can be stacked in series. Using 4 of the 90 Amp in series 
will get you close. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Sep 4, 2023, at 4:16 PM, Ron Young via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi All,

I am looking for recommendations for a standalone 48v high amp charger (min. 
100a). I have a client with a large battery bank that needs a minimum 85a 
charge but his all-in-one inverter/charger won’t deliver more than 40. Finding 
high amp 48v chargers has proven to be a challenge. Victron has one but not 
sure if there’s anything else out there.

Ron

earthRight Products - Solareagle.com 
Alternative Energy Solutions ~ Renewable Energy Products
1-877-925-2929

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Inverter On/Off Switch use Outback FX

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

They did not anticipate the use with Lithium battery chemistry which is mostly 
discharged at 12.7V, and that happens to be the fully charged resting voltage 
of lead batteries. 

Seems as though by now manufacturers should have increased the LBCO voltage 
range in the software.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jul 13, 2023, at 9:29 AM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi Mac;

I've used the aux control on charge controllers to turn on/off the FX 
inverters, just as you planned.  Works fine, and solves the LBCO programming 
issue.

Now, if someone from the manufacturing side could PLEASE explain why they 
limited the LBCO on all these inverter models.  Absolutely makes no sense.  
Schneider, Outback, even Magnum is too low...?

Ray Walters



On 7/11/2023 6:19 PM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> I'm trying to solve an issue with an older Outback FX system.  It's a quad 
> stack of Outback 3648 FX inverters and he has a couple of Fortress eVault and 
> an unreliable generator. The LBCO setting can't go high enough to cut out 
> before the eVaults cut out so he occasionally will have to direct charge the 
> eVault to get things running again.
> 
> I'd like to use a 12V Aux relay logic to trip the primary inverter on/off 
> contacts before we go into battery shutdown so the solar has a chance to 
> recover the system.  Pretty simple overall but I wanted to see if there are 
> any known ill effects of doing this with substantial load on the system.  Of 
> course, I can use a power relay but this may be better.
> 
> Thanks for your input!
> 
> -- 
> 
> 
> 
> Mac Lewis
> 

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Re: [RE-wrenches] High current dc combiner vibration

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

You may already know but… Are your DC cables bonded together and twisted where 
possible to reduce magnetic fields? Higher the current and greater the loop 
area, the stronger the fields are. More parallel loops, the greater the 
combined flux = loud Hums.  

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jun 29, 2023, at 8:19 AM, Kirk Herander via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

All, 

I am in the middle of commissioning a 480kwh BP LFP battery bank, connected to 
-10- OB Radian 8kw inverter/chargers.

For the DC combiner I am using midnite 2000 amp combiner boxes, modified to 
mount  class T fuses on the positive bus, for both battery inputs and inverter 
outputs.

For starters, I set the master inverter at a max charge rate of 20 AC amps, 
which equates to a DC charge of about 74 A. All the other inverters are 
automatically set to this charge rate as well.

Turning the chargers on one by one, I started to get quite an audible vibration 
from the combiner box at a combined charge of about 400 to 500 A. 

So I took the cover off of the combiner, which was vibrating noticabllly by 
feel. Most of the noise was from the cover not fitting tight. But the The box 
itself is also vibrating by feel.

I took the combined charge up to 640A dc. This level of vibration definitely 
increases with an increased charge rate. And I am surprised because after all, 
we’re not talking AC here we’re talking DC. It almost reminds me of a large AC 
transformer in its behavior. The vibration did not seem to be originating at 
the inverters, then resonating to the combiner.

I can dampen the vibration by adding a few things, but I’m surprised that this 
is happening. All connections in the combiner are tightened properly. Ideas?










-- 
Kirk Herander /  <>kirkh@vermont.solar 
Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC
Celebrating our 32st Anniversary 1991-2023!!
dba Vermont Solar Engineering
802.863.1202
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

That makes more sense, Darryl, thanks for sharing that. Another good example, 
Jay.

We do have batteries that can be charged at 3C but I have only designed one 
mobile medical unit with that capability. It required 2 50A shore power 
connections or could use the onboard 20kW generator. Makes lots of heat doing 
so and heat is battery enemy #1, molten salt batteries excluded. Lower 
operating temperatures is a good reason for using lower C rates.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Jun 27, 2023, at 7:49 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi Jay and all,  I belive Steve meant C/2 or C/3; just a typo. My oldest set of 
LiFe is almost 10 years?  It has a fastest charge rate of C/0.2  because the 10 
kWh is charged by 1.6 kW solar.  These batteries are doing fine.  I do not have 
a way of measuring the current capacity but 

On Mon, Jun 26, 2023 at 3:58 PM Jay via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did 
mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium battery charge rate

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Hi Jay,

For our LFMP and LFP batteries, it has never mattered. 
 
As long as current is flowing, the SoC is increasing and the voltage will rise 
until it reaches the CV set point.   

Typically cell balance occurs when a cell voltage reaches a set point where a 
load turns on across that cell. Typically about 3.55 V. When we see out of 
balance battery packs, we typically find that the bank has been habitually 
deficit charged. Someone has spread an idea that you should not fully charge 
your Li battery. (Thanks YouTube gurus) This leads to unbalanced cells over 
time. Each cell has a slightly different charge efficiency and the SoC will 
slowly drift. This affects all cells. Unbalanced cells lead to an apparent loss 
of capacity.

We have LFMP banks sitting as back up power for 10 years now with a constant 
3.6Vpc. No problems with just very low current maintaining the bank. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Jun 26, 2023, at 1:57 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi All

I’m wondering if minimum charge amps for lithium is common or not?

Or does it have to do with the cell shape: cylindrical vs prismatic vs pouch?

A client purchased some EG4 batteries and they are getting a bit out of 
balanced. Tech support didn’t suggest higher volts or longer absorb but did 
mention they need 30-50 amps charge. It’s not in the manual. 

Wondering what you all think and know

Thx
Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Hello Chris,

LA batteries do not have a BMS that can block current flow to a series group of 
cells. Balancers are not likely needed but may benefit an aging battery bank. A 
long enough charge time (CV) on a healthy bank will fully charge all cells even 
though some cells will experience high voltage. Cross connecting cables between 
parallel strings will help the even distribution of voltage as it provides 
alternative paths for current.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems



On May 16, 2023, at 6:24 AM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Would you recommend that for FLAs?  Thank you, Chris

On 5/15/2023 6:12 PM, Starlight via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Jay,
> 
> I started recommending the Victron battery balancer for all series and 
> series/parallel Li battery banks. It has eliminated trouble in some 
> problematic systems. If you reach a cell over-voltage in the Kilovault BMS, 
> it will block current flow, preventing the other series batteries from 
> charging. This also causes havoc with connected equipment as the battery 
> appears to have disconnected.
> 
> Larry Crutcher
> Starlight Power Systems
> 
> 
> On May 15, 2023, at 12:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
>  <mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> wrote:
> 
> Hi All
> 
> I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2  12v 
> lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series 
> communication. 
> Kilovault if that matters. 
> Not my design. 
> 
> It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. 
> 
> Thanks in advance
> 
> Jay
> ___

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Battery balancers

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Jay,

I started recommending the Victron battery balancer for all series and 
series/parallel Li battery banks. It has eliminated trouble in some problematic 
systems. If you reach a cell over-voltage in the Kilovault BMS, it will block 
current flow, preventing the other series batteries from charging. This also 
causes havoc with connected equipment as the battery appears to have 
disconnected.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Power Systems


On May 15, 2023, at 12:17 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi All

I’m wondering what the thoughts are on using or not balancers for 2  12v 
lithium in series for 24v system. The batteries don’t have any series 
communication. 
Kilovault if that matters. 
Not my design. 

It would seem to be a good idea, with victron having a good one. 

Thanks in advance

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Cell phone based relay control

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

https://www.amazon.com/Solenoid-Control-Wireless-Contact-T-Mobile/dp/B07Q7PKW5Z?th=1

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems




On Mar 13, 2023, at 12:47 PM, Jay via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hi all

Any recommendations for a cell phone controlled relay?

Would be off grid. There is 12v already there. 
I’m trying to remote control a grundfos sqflex  pump, only a dry dpst contact 
is required. 

Would be great to have access to the control via an app or web so that one 
could see if it’s on or off or maybe even set timers etc. 

Thanks 

Jay
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Re: [RE-wrenches] PV and EMP

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Right Dave. The VooDoo of EMI filtering, lightning protection or EMP induced 
voltage reduction attempts are similar and governed by the inverse square law. 
How much energy and how close is it? You must properly reduce energy 
propagation at every point. I have seen very expensive protection systems with 
poor implementation making the entire scheme useless.  So, is the cost and 
effort worth the results? Study, then study more. It may be more cost effective 
to have a back part rather than spending money on an expensive preventative 
measure.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Mar 9, 2023, at 11:18 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hmmm...I wonder how much SolArk is dreaming.
https://www.sol-ark.com/e-m-p/ 

On Thu, Mar 9, 2023 at 9:58 AM Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Depends on how close and how strong the pulse or strike is. In Mil satellites, 
the same thing. You can harden but are dreaming if you think your electronics 
can really survive it. Even harder to protect electronics that are powered on. 
The KH series spy sats I saw schematics for had redundant systems that were off 
or rotated I seem to remember. This was back in the 90's so very sketchy in the 
fog of time.
 
For Offgrid, and High Rel power systems, a faraday cage for your inverter and 
CC is a must if you are in high lightning zone. A top of a mountain is often 
really hard on a house or Telcom. One place I have blows SPD's yearly. 
 
Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/ 
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net 
text 209 813 0060


On 2023-03-09 9:09 am, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches wrote:

> Backwoods Solar sells kits to harden against EMP. I am wondering how 
> effective they would be.
> 
> Drake
> 
> 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> 
> Athens Electric LLC
> 
> Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
> 
> CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> 
> ---
>  
> 
> 
> On 2023-03-08 11:49, Glenn Burt via RE-wrenches wrote:
> 
> I would review Sol Arks website as they say they are immune. Probably have 
> something to back that up published there.
>  
> -Glenn
> Sent from my 'smart'phone, so please excuse typos and spelling errors.
>  
> -- Original message--
> From: Marco Mangelsdorf via RE-wrenches
> Date: Wed, Mar 8, 2023 11:37 AM
> To: RE-wrenches;
> Cc: Marco Mangelsdorf;
> Subject:[RE-wrenches] PV and EMP
>  
> Aloha all, 
>  
> Have any of you come across any articles or white papers on how PV systems 
> (including energy storage) fare under conditions of electromagnetic pulses 
> and solar flares?
>  
> Mahalo, 
> marco
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fire fighters

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

To all techies, what if a bleeder resister, similar to what is used on a 
capacitor, was in parallel with the PV strings or array? That should pull down 
any high voltage from a low illuminance light source. 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems


On Mar 8, 2023, at 2:13 PM, Darryl Thayer via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hello the answer is yes.  On a job  several years ago to finish I worked after 
dark.  It was a full moon, and a street light was nearby I got bit from a 500 
Voc module string.  I am sure I did not have 500 V but it only takes 20 ma. To 
be deadly. I did not get my volt ohm meter out but I should have.

On Wed, Mar 8, 2023, 9:34 AM Kristopher Schmid via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:
Hi wrenches,

In speaking to local firefighters last year, I had a question that stumped me.  
At night, will the light from the flames or the fire fighters' flood lights 
energize the array to a dangerous potential?

Any light you can shed (pun intended) would be most welcome.

Shine On!

Kris Schmid
Legacy Solar, LLC
137 West 1st Avenue
Luck, WI 54853
www.legacysolar.com 
715-653-4295
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
BSEE
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Remote battery disconnects

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Have you (or any) installed surge suppression on the PV input side to clamp the 
open circuit voltage surge? 

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Feb 1, 2023, at 1:23 PM, William Bryce via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

I can also backup what Jim has said, and have seen the same gear destroyed by 
removing the battery abruptly when the controller is under heavy load. They can 
die, and sometimes die spectacularly.

Have seen SolArk inverters integrated MPPT controllers blow up when lithium 
battery BMS disconnects. Not a field fixable issue.

Just flip off the breaker when the solar is working hard and and the SolArk 
will give up the smoke. 

Like I originally said, it’s the non talked about issue that is a big issue 
depending on what gear your using.

On Wed, Feb 1, 2023 at 2:49 PM James Jefferson Jarvis via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:


On 2/1/2023 12:25 PM, Alex MeVay via RE-wrenches wrote:
> Although our controllers are probably smaller than what you would be
> considering in this discussion, surviving a load dump (suddenly
> disconnected battery) is an engineering requirement for us, and likely
> would be for other responsible MFG's on this list (boB?).  The charge
> controller can either handle full input voltage on the output, or
> there is a comparator that will shut the controller down instantly
> when the output voltage gets too high.

So that's part of the picture.

The other part of the picture is the rest of the system. The discussion 
and what NEC is mandating is that the battery be disconnected. As far as 
I can tell, there isn't an explicit requirement in all cases that all of 
the power inputs into the system are all going to go away at exactly the 
same time  or ever. This leaves things like charge controllers 
getting input power potentially from PV or wind or grid or generator or 
something else. And nothing in the NEC, as far as I can tell, is 
mandating that all of the DC loads be disconnected. So the loads are 
online. Now the regulation circuit (switching power supply in the case 
of a MPPT controller) is regulating variable loads and nothing is 
providing substantial resistance to change. Normally the battery is 
acting like a very very very big capacitor. But without the battery, 
there isn't enough damping in the control loops and voltage stability 
will suffer. This is where you get 250 volts on your normally 48 volt 
battery bus. Or 3 volts. Or -80 volts. Or all of those in a fraction of 
second. This sort of thing is hard on electronics and will cause failures.


Alex's comment about Genasun's controllers handling full input voltage 
on the output is probably unique to their niche product. Looking at 
their biggest controller, it appears to support VOC of 34 volts. At 34 
volts, he can use 50V or 100V rated components on his output. For a 150V 
input controller, you probably can. But you wouldn't because it would be 
too expensive. But on a 600V or 1000V controller, there's just no way 
that you do that because 1000V rated components are big and expensive 
and their spacing requirements are huge compared 100V level sort of 
stuff. So the way bigger MPPT controllers deal with load dump is with 
transient voltage supression or other diodes to handle the voltage spike 
caused by the inductor when the load goes away. When operated in 
parameters, these parts don't wear out. But it can be interesting to 
size them adequately to account for inductance elsewhere in the system 
adding to voltage and energy that has to be absorbed.


There is a very simple experiment that anybody can perform to see how 
equipment handles a load dump: Simply wait for a sunny day and turn off 
the battery breaker. If no magic smoke was released, turn back on 
battery breaker. If still no magic smoke was released, then great, your 
system survived a load dump.

If you are at all uncomfortable doing this and/or your system gets 
destroyed in the process, think back to my earlier security comments 
about having a self destruct switch on the outside of your building 
allowing anyone walking by to do this experiment for you.

I have personally destroyed Outback, Midnite, and Morningstar 
controllers inadvertently or intentionally doing load dumps by shutting 
off their output breaker. Typically the TVS diodes short out and 
secondary over current protection (circuit breaker) trips before things 
catch on fire. Usuaully the UL94V0 rating on the circuit board and the 
box the circuit board is in prevents fire from spreading when things do 
get wild.

But I've also seen all of those brands survive a load dump.

I have multiple customer who have fielded lithium battery systems to 
cold locations and have had battery BMS disconnect the battery from the 
rest of the system. Ten's of thousands of dollars of equipment has been 
destroyed in these islanding events.


Some thoughts, for what they are worth.

-James Jarvis
APRS World, LLC

Re: [RE-wrenches] Magnum 4024PAE Won't Charge

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Hello Drake,

Since the relay board is functioning some times, I would more suspect (1) an 
intermittent controller board or (2) corrosion on the contact area of the 
header connection. They are relatively easy to change and not too expensive. 

One thing I would test first is to unplug the ARC remote the apply AC power. 
The ARC has the ability to control when incoming AC is used. Unplugging it will 
bypass all remote function as a cause, though I highly doubt it is.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jan 18, 2023, at 7:42 PM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

A Magnum 4024 won't charge batteries or transfer loads. The owner of the 
system, now well out of warranty, has spent hours on the phone with tech 
support and even took the unit into a Magnum authorized repair shop. The 
technician declared that it was working perfectly.

On connection to the utility grid, the ME-ARC shows no sign of seeing the 
power. Once in a great while, it will connect and start charging batteries. 
Then it will quit.

This seems to me like a matter of a relay not operating. The technician, who 
checked it out, believes that the problem is with the AC coming in. One tech 
support agent thought the same.

The inverter is 1000' plus from the transformer. The incoming voltage, with 
light loads, is 248 VAC. Shouldn't the ME-ARC at least show that it sees the 
grid, even if the voltage dropped upon connection to the point it couldn't hold 
it?

Isn't the Magnum charger pretty forgiving about voltage input? I've heard they 
can have issues with inverter-generators, but this is 60 Hz grid power.

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Any new AC equipment connected and running during test? Scope the waveform 
during equipment start to see if the distortion is severe. I have seen a 300W 
load make a mess of a Magnum AC waveform.

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:48 AM, Mac Lewis  wrote:

Good question Larry, 

Rock solid 52V on a lithium battery system. Doesn't appear to be a battery 
problem at all. 

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023, 11:41 AM Starlight mailto:la...@starlightsolar.com>> wrote:
Mac,

What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals during the 
inrush measurement?

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>> 
wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years 
on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors 
vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment.  Amazingly, 
the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, 
but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), 
brown outs, dimming etc

He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I tried a test with 
a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads.  I was a little 
surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer 
based inverters at these surges.

I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads 
will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it 
didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off)  

What are my options?
Schneider XW Pro 6848
Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?)
Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly

Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 only loads so 
I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice.

Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should?

I appreciate your input!

--
Mac Lewis



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low Frequency transformer off-grid inverter options

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Mac,

What was the lowest voltage measured at inverter battery terminals during the 
inrush measurement?

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Jan 13, 2023, at 11:33 AM, Mac Lewis via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

I have a new client that has ran a pretty decent wood shop for about 10 years 
on a Magnum 4448.  He's got some large loads, planers, saws, compressors 
vacuums etc.  They are really nice, heavy duty pieces of equipment.  Amazingly, 
the Magnum has been able to start these loads for the most part for 10 years, 
but he has reported that it has gotten worse lately (could be a load issue), 
brown outs, dimming etc

He wants to upgrade the system, get remote monitoring etc.  I tried a test with 
a Sol-Ark 12, and it won't start these large motor loads.  I was a little 
surprised by that but I know they aren't as good as the low freq transformer 
based inverters at these surges.

I confirmed that its not just an overload from imbalance because the 240V loads 
will also overload it.  I got an inrush measurement of 48.5A Ac @240 (but it 
didn't start the load before Sol-Ark would shut off)  

What are my options?
Schneider XW Pro 6848
Outback Radian 8048 (Is this a low freq device?)
Sunny Islands are beasts but weird to work with and not user friendly

Any others I should consider?  He does have some significant 120 only loads so 
I don't think the Outback vfxr are a good choice.

Is it as simple as saying if the Magnum can start this load, the Radian should?

I appreciate your input!

--
Mac Lewis

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] White Roof Temperature

[Starlight via RE-wrenches]

Perhaps this: https://jacobsschool.ucsd.edu/news/release?id=1094

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems



On Aug 25, 2022, at 11:37 AM, Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches 
 wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

A client installed a beautiful white standing seam roof. Suddenly their air 
conditioning loads dropped way down.

We were planning to put an array on the roof, but she is concerned that the 
roof would become much hotter with dark colored solar modules over it.

Is there any data on this issue?

Thank you,

Drake

Drake Chamberlin
Athens Electric LLC
Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810
CO Master Electrician’s License 4526
NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional


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