Re: [RE-wrenches] Odd inspection procedure

[cwarfel]

I have been on both sides of the part of this process where this has
become somewhat normal for smaller installations.  The company
overseeing the work has a Word template that is pretty clunky.  I am not
a fan of this for some of the reasons stated, but the cost of on site
inspection by those who are specialized in the technology can be pretty
high.  Some of the on site inspection processes are over the top too. 
Most of it seems to be about gathering data to generate reports that
justifies the expense of hiring the company that is doing the
inspections. 

My recommendation is if you know this is going to be required, take
pictures as the system is being built.  Some of the requested
information is impractical, not acessable, etc after the system is
installed unless you are going to start taking things apart, which I am
telling the inspection company I am not going to do. Get me the process
now, and not after the fact.  

Chris 

On 2021-04-01 23:33, Jerry Shafer wrote:

> Wrenches 
> virtual inspections are becoming normal, I am just north of Williams 
> inspection and we started these pics or video all the way back to Late March 
> last year, they do this for the far away location but that also where cell 
> service stinks so video can be difficult  
> Jerry 
> 
> On Wed, Mar 31, 2021 at 10:37 AM William Miller  
> wrote: 
> 
>> Friends: 
>> 
>> We just finished a grid-tied project [1] that included a pretty complicated 
>> service upgrade.  The project is in Monterey County, California.  The site 
>> is pretty remote on the south end of the Big Sur coastline and Highway 1 is 
>> closed (as is not uncommon) to the north with a washout.  This makes it time 
>> consuming for an inspector to reach the site, but even without the washout 
>> the travel time is measured in hours. 
>> 
>> Days in advance we scheduled the final inspection on the building department 
>> web-site as is SOP and were awarded a slot for yesterday.  Yesterday morning 
>> an inspector called at 7:30 AM to announce they were too busy to make the 
>> appointment.  Instead I was directed to take a series of photographs to 
>> verify the validity of our installation work.  Below is the list they 
>> provided.  Note how vague the requirements are, particularly the fifth one.  
>> I was told that this process will be standard operation procedure for the 
>> County of Monterey in the near future for solar installs.  
>> 
>> This seems wrong to me.  I can't believe that any collection of photographs 
>> can accurately portray if even the most simple photovoltaic system, let 
>> alone one with a 300 amp CT service and 400 amp transfer switch, is 
>> installed correctly.  I know in the 1980s the solar water heating industry 
>> had acquired a collective black-eye due to shoddy installation procedures 
>> and I fear this is where the PV industry may be headed.  
>> 
>> I submitted a handful of photos and was granted a final approval.  I have 
>> very mixed feelings about this "success."  I feel like I cheated on a test.  
>> 
>> I am curious if any of you have had a similar experience to this.  As always 
>> I am informed and sometimes amused by what I learn on this forum. 
>> 
>> List of requested photographs: 
>> 
>> ☐ PV module model number, quantity, and location according to the approved 
>> plan.  
>> 
>> ☐ Roof penetrations flashed/sealed according to the approved plan.  
>> 
>> ☐ Array exposed cables are properly secured, supported, and routed to 
>> prevent physical damage.  
>> 
>> ☐ Grounding/bonding of rack and modules according to the manufacturer's 
>> installation instructions.  
>> 
>> ☐ Equipment installed, listed and labeled according to the approved plan 
>> (e.g., PV   modules, dc/dc converters, combiners, inverters, rapid shutdown 
>> equipment).  
>> 
>> ☐ Overcurrent devices are the type and size according to the approved plan.  
>> 
>> ☐ Disconnects according to the approved plan and properly located as 
>> required by the  NEC.  
>> 
>> ☐ PV system markings, labels and signs according to the approved plan.  
>> 
>> ☐ Connection of the PV system to the grounding electrode system according to 
>> the approved plan.  
>> 
>> ☐ Access and working space for operation and maintenance of PV equipment 
>> such as  inverters, disconnecting means and panelboards (not required for PV 
>> modules) [NEC 110.26].  
>> 
>> ☐ The rapid shutdown system is installed and operational according to the 
>> approved  plan [NEC 690.12]. 
>> 
>> William Miller 
>> 
>> Miller Solar 
>> 
>> 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 
>> 
>> 805-438-5600 
>> 
>> www.millersolar.com [2] 
>> 
>> CA Lic. 773985 
>> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble

[cwarfel]

Thanks for this, it is really helpful.  Chris

On 2020-11-23 11:26, Jamie Rennie wrote:

> Wrenches, 
> 
> Enphase Encharge debacle continues. Installed the USB extension device 
> (https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B073B84CY1/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1)
>  Enphase field engineer's recommended week before last. Once installed had 
> good com to all the units but only 5 of the 6 batteries were communicating. 
> Tried unsuccessfully to provision the new battery several times with tech 
> support. Got pretty upset with the tech who was requesting I do the same 
> sequence of events I had been trying for the last two week with no results. 
> Asked if they had someone locally who could look at the system. Enphase field 
> engineer (Adam Rich) called me the next day and agreed to drive up from the 
> Bay Area to take a look at the system. Met him on site on Friday last week, 
> went through the same trouble shooting steps and was unsuccessful in 
> provisioning the battery even though my phone and the Envoy could "see" the 
> battery. He tried it on his phone and it worked so the only thing we could 
> come
up with is my phone was the issue. I have a Motorola X Pure from 2016 with 
Android 6.0 software, Adam was using an iphone, not sure which version. Looks 
like I need to buy a new phone to work on these systems... Sigh 
> 
> Later that evening I got a call from Adam and he found a separate issue with 
> another battery. One of the microinverters on the battery was not working. 
> Adam drove back over to the site that evening and tried to hot swap the 
> inverter. Turns out it is a bad slot and the battery needs to be replaced. So 
> looks like we are looking at another RMA for this system. Sharing this info 
> with Wrenches in the hopes that it helps others evaluate these products as I 
> have found value in the messages I have read here. I really like these new 
> Enphase systems and stoked Enphase was kind enough to send someone out to 
> look at our install. Seems like Enphase still has a bunch of stuff to work 
> out on these new batteries, unfortunately we are the guinea pigs for this new 
> technology. Hopefully our customer remains a good sport and doesn't ask us to 
> take it all down... 
> 
> On Tue, Nov 10, 2020 at 7:28 AM Jamie Rennie  
> wrote: 
> Wrenches, 
> 
> We just got through installing and commissioning our first Enphase system 
> with Empower Smart switch and 2 of the Encharge 10's. Commissioning took a 
> long time (over a week) and was really clunky with many calls to tech 
> support. Everytime we got past one issue we ran into something else that 
> needed to be resolved by an engineer. Most of it had to do with software and 
> communication between envoy and other components. Found one of the batteries 
> failed and we have replaced it. Now the batteries are not communicating with 
> the Envoy and waiting to hear back from tech support about a solution for 
> improving the communication between the Envoy, Empower and Encharge Units 
> (currently IQ Combiner with Envoy is installed on East exterior wall near 
> service and batteries are in the garage approx 60' away).  Sounds like 
> Enphase does not have a repeater they recommend for their system yet and 
> there are known issues with weak comm between batteries and Envoy.  
> 
> On Wed, Oct 7, 2020 at 10:07 AM  wrote: 
> 
> Thanks for that advice, Louis. Next time I will start the necessary downloads 
> first. 
> This week with a site visit from Enphase tech support we determined the 
> Enpower switch was stuck in an unknown state. This was resolved successfully, 
> and now the Enpower switch and Encharge batteries are commissioned and 
> functional. Their status and power flow can be seen on Enlighten. 
> During functional testing we determined that a major cause of the system 
> going down when off-grid is that the well pump turn-on surge is too much for 
> the two Encharge3 batteries. 
> This issue should be able to be solved by a motor soft starter.  Enphase 
> recommends SureStart from Hyper Engineering. These are made for larger A/C 
> units with access to separate fan and compressor windings so are not 
> appropriate for this two-wire 3/4 hp well pump. 
> Does anyone have a recommendation for a suitable soft start rated at 
> something like 8 amps load, 16 amps surge? 
> 
> Don Barch 
> Energy Solar 
>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Commissioning issues with Enphase Ensemble
> From: Louis Woofenden 
> Date: Thu, October 01, 2020 3:54 pm
> To: d...@energysolarnow.com
> 
> Hi Don,
> 
> I have commissioned four new Ensemble systems over the past two weeks. All 
> storage additions to existing PV systems with Enphase microinverters. 
> Although there are parts of the process that are a bit clunky, we have not 
> had the problems you mention. I followed the instructions in the tech brief 
> "Ensemble Commissioning via Installer Toolkit 3.0," linked at 
> https://enphase.com/en-

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Compliance

[cwarfel]

I live in a small town, so our outreach probably has greater impact. We
have gone to the FD meetings, we tell them about the system types and
definitions, quiz them and follow up.   So, I think depending upon
training, which is not a one shot deal, it can have an impact. They seem
relieved.

On 2020-05-07 11:39, Brian Mehalic wrote:

> I agree: utilize the formal process, ideally with a group of folks.  If you 
> are a SEIA member, get involved in their Codes and Standards process.  The 
> additional directory language you suggest is not likely to be valuable to 
> many first responders without significant training and documentation, and 
> even then is still likely to get "lost" amongst other labels and directories. 
> RS as required now instead focuses on an initiation device(s), so that the 
> device is all responders need to look for - it's up to the installer to 
> specify and put in the correct gear to make RS happen, and the AHJ to verify 
> this.
> 
> Brian Mehalic 
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV Installation Professional(tm) R031508-59 
> National Electrical Code(R) CMP-4 Member 
> (520) 204-6639
> 
> Solar Energy International
> http://www.solarenergy.org 
> 
> SEI Professional Services 
> http://www.seisolarpros.com [1] 
> 
> On Thu, May 7, 2020 at 6:43 AM Christopher Warfel 
>  wrote: 
> 
> I believe Rapid Shutdown was mostly a solution looking for a problem.   The 
> only way I see this becoming "reasonable" is to present "grievances" to the 
> Code Making Panel WITH a solution for their consideration.  Based on 
> experience from being part of an outreach program that taught approximately 
> 10k firefighters over four years, I have asked that they add to the 
> Directory, the language that states what type of solar electric system is on 
> site (Microinverter, dc optimizer, string, multimode, grid isolated) so that 
> First Responders don't have to guess.  I realize this is different than MLPE, 
> but it targets the person who Rapid Shutdown came into being for, and that 
> was the First Responder.   Chris 
> 
> On 5/6/2020 10:37 PM, Ray wrote: 
> 
> Spending more time on the roof, while putting more equipment and parts to 
> meet MLPE, means more trips up the ladder, which increases, not decreases the 
> #1 worker safety danger: Falls.  Please correct me if I have somehow 
> misunderstood this, but MLPE is not making installers safer based on OSHA 
> information provided.   Also after installation, which system is more likely 
> to require workers to return to work on the roof, pulling up modules, trying 
> to find problem equipment?  More connections is More safe?  Really?  I 
> haven't had to climb back up on the roof on any of my older, lower voltage 
> off grid work in almost a decade. 
> 
> Once again, MLPE has its place, (larger systems, multiple subarrays, higher 
> voltage) but we should have sensible exemptions as have been mentioned 
> already.  We are endangering ourselves and our employees needlessly, to 
> comply with 690.12.  
> 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> 
> On 5/6/20 8:41 PM, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote: 
> 
> Interestingly enough, the data on the link [2] provided shows accidents from 
> gas explosions, falls, health problems and  industrial injuries. None of 
> these incidents could have been prevented by module level power electronics. 
> This is typical of the data that I've seen so far.
> 
> ---
> 
> On 2020-05-06 17:22, Martin Herzfeld wrote: 
> 
> There could be an issue of encouraging MLPE for worker safety? 
> 
> 1.  This is data involving incidents with workers in the OSHA Fatalities and 
> Catastrophe Investigation Summaries found here: 
> https://www.osha.gov/pls/imis/AccidentSearch.search?p_logger=1&acc_description=&acc_Abstract=solar&acc_keyword=&sic=&naics=&Office=All&officetype=All&endmonth=05&endday=05&endyear=2002&startmonth=05&startday=05&startyear=2021&InspNr=
>  
> 
> 2.  In the past I've observed an arc fault at the module level with 
> traditional string systems without a listed arc-fault circuit interrupter 
> NEC/CEC 690.11. The function in NEC/CEC 690.12 would be - to reduce the shock 
> hazard - for _emergency responders_ or _firefighters? (NEC 2020)._  However, 
> I've observed thermal events in the panelboard with plans and workmanship 
> issues.  
> 
> On the other hand, falls are the #1 reason for incidents in the construction 
> industry.  
> 
> All the best, 
> 
> Martin Herzfeld, Interstate Renewable Energy Council (IREC) Certified Master 
> Trainer (tm) for Photovoltaics (PV) Installation Professional #IREC 10037
> Contract Training Provider (CTP)
> Adjunct Professor, Energy
> 
> California Solar & Electrical Contractor License  #00833782  C46, C10, D56, 
> D31, C-7 - Since 2004
> Solar, Electrical, Trenching, Pole Installation & Maintenance, Instrumentation
> 
> Contract Solar (PV) Technical Inspector - 3rd Party Inspections 
> Underwriters Laboratories (UL) Certified PV Installer #17, OSHA 30
> OSHA-Authorize

Re: [RE-wrenches] Outback Boards

[cwarfel]

We have replaced one board on two different inverters in the past 10
years. Chris

On 2019-02-05 17:52, drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org wrote:

> Hello Wrenches, 
> 
> It is my understanding that old Outback VFX inverters can not have only one 
> board replaced, but need to have three changed. 
> 
> We have an inverter that is from around 2005 (serial number VFX 008968). Can 
> one board be replaced on this unit? 
> 
> Thanks, 
> 
> Drake 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid

[cwarfel]

Lones, Does Outback have any schematic details on the installation of
these devices with the Outback devices?  Chris Warfel

On 2019-02-03 02:18, Lones Tuss wrote:

> Hello Jay and All
> Concerning module level shutdown. 
> Tigo has conducted testing and has validated the FM60/80 charge controllers 
> with their TS4 Module Platform 
> 
> Imo's FireRaptor has been tested by OutBack and can be used successfully in 
> combination with FM60/80/100  the ICS Plus and the Skybox 5048
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of jay
> Sent: Wednesday, January 30, 2019 5:02 PM
> To: RE-wrenches 
> Subject: [RE-wrenches] module level control for offgrid
> 
> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - Please report any suspicious attachments, links, or 
> requests for sensitive information to the Help Desk. ** 
> 
> 
> HI All,
> 
> Well its the new year and Module level control is here. 690.12 (B)(2)
> 
> Does anyone have any updates as to products that work with CC's that meet it?
> 
> Thx
> jay
> 
> Peltz Power
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems

[cwarfel]

I have only installed two so far on the small island I live on and had
none of these problems.  We have installed 4048's and I am wondering if
these problems are with 8048s or 4048s?  Thank you, Chris Warfel

On 2018-12-03 14:34, Lones Tuss wrote:

> Hello William 
> 
> Sorry for the issues and troubles. I have forwarded your concerns on to the 
> responsible parties. I have requested additional bolts which once I receive 
> them I will send them on to you. 
> 
> Take Care Sir 
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON BEHALF OF 
> William Miller
> SENT: Saturday, December 1, 2018 1:47 PM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Radian orders hardware problems 
> 
> ** [EXTERNAL EMAIL] - PLEASE REPORT ANY SUSPICIOUS ATTACHMENTS, LINKS, OR 
> REQUESTS FOR SENSITIVE INFORMATION TO THE HELP DESK. ** 
> 
> -
> 
> Wrenches: 
> 
> I am reaching out to this group to see if anyone is having the problems we 
> are.  At least 50% of the Radian inverters and/or GSLC cabinets we order 
> arrive missing some part or piece required to install the inverter.  
> Sometimes it is one or more of the bus bars to connect the main DC breaker to 
> the inverter, sometimes it is one of the 8mm nuts required on these bus bars, 
> and the most recent order, and on our most recent order, one of the inverters 
> was missing the 8mm bolts and washers required to connect the bus bars to the 
> inverter plus and minus ports. 
> 
> We have been having this problem for years.  Has anyone else experienced 
> this, or is it just me? 
> 
> Also, the shunts provided in the GSLC cabinets are crap.  It used to be the 
> shunts had a solid base.  Now the bases are hollow.  We use to see these 
> shunt bases cracked almost 100% of the time in shipping because the long, 
> cantilevered negative bus bar was entirely supported at one end by the shunt. 
>  Any modest bump on the GSLC cabinet broke the shunt.  Now we receive them 
> intact because Alpha has stopped installing the shunt prior to shipping.  The 
> problem persists, however, because if you put the slightest pressure on the 
> negative bus bar to align the holes to install the bolts (if they arrive), 
> minimal strain in the base of the shunt cracks it.  See the photos below of 
> the old versus new style shunt. 
> 
> Each of these problems slows down an install and creates frustration.  This 
> persistent pattern is really not acceptable. 
> 
> Lones, please investigate these problems and let us know if they can be 
> rectified.  And please, send me a set of the 8mm bolts. 
> 
> Thank you, 
> 
> William Miller 
> 
> Lic 773985
> millersolar.com [1]
> 805-438-5600 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Commercial backfeed

[cwarfel]

Hi Bill, It's smaller than NEC 691covers, so I would think all the same 
rules apply (Not an engineered, stamped allowance). Chris



On 11/5/2018 10:07 AM, frenergy wrote:

Hey folks,

            I've been asked to inter-tie a system to a 600 amp 480V 
delta panel.  Do all the same rules apply (Backfeed max 20%, keep 
inter-tie breaker farthest from panel grid feeders, anything else??).  
Proposed system size is about 35-40KW.  Its actually a bazillionaire's 
residence.


TIA

Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net


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[RE-wrenches] Battery Terminal Corrosion Cleaning Idea

[cwarfel]

I don't know if this is old news, but I cannot recall seeing it, so I 
thought I would post.


I was cleaning the battery terminals off my own system and my brushes 
were not getting to some of the spots. I put a mixture of baking soda 
and water in an old spray bottle I had saved and was able to hit all the 
spots. It used a lot less baking soda. I then sprayed the terminals with 
another bottle I had of water.  It's taking me a couple of days to get 
the terminals where they need to be, but I was surprised at how well it 
worked.   Chris

--

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   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Surge arrestors on strings

[cwarfel]

I think something on the order of 90+% lightning strikes come from the 
utility feed, not the dc side. That has to be ignored if in a high 
strike area orgrid isolated.



On 10/8/2018 10:37 PM, Ray wrote:


I believe you can use the SPD 300 AC on 2 strings, if PV neg is 
grounded.  You would connect the green to ground (or PV neg) and then 
connect the red to one string pos, and connect the black to the other 
string pos.  This would be limited to 300 v also.  I haven't tried 
that exact configuration, but I have used the 300 AC to protect both 
the AC in and AC out on 120 vac inverters.  I also believe you can use 
a 600 DC version, and wire as I mentioned, but the LEDs won't light. 
If you are using ungrounded inverters, then I think you would need an 
SPD for each string in order to protect both the pos and neg of each 
string, like you've been doing.


Maybe someone from Midnite can clarify this.

As far as it being worth it, I haven't had lightning related damage 
since I started using the Midnite SPDs, and I used to have system 
damage every year.  If you are not in lightning country, or the 
install is in a low spot with less likelihood of taking a hit, you 
might be able to skimp.  But for some of these off grid ridge top 
installs, I consider it a must. Some times I don't install one on the 
gen circuit, if its really close.



Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 10/8/18 4:03 PM, Drake wrote:

Hello Wrenches,

Do you use surge arrestors with multi MPPT input string inverters? Do 
you put a separate arrestor on each MPPT input? I find it sort of 
pricey using a Midnite Solar arrestor on each string, but have been 
doing that. Is there a less expensive approach that is effective?


I believe the Midnite units are the best. Are they worth the expense?

Thank you,

Drake


Drake Chamberlin
/Athens Electric LLC
OH License 44810
CO License 3773
NABCEP Certified Solar PV
740-448-7328
/http://athens-electric.com/



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 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Code signage for battery back-up?

[cwarfel]

There definitely areNEC signage requirements. VT is in NEC 2017.  I'll 
put the references below each bullet.



On 9/21/2018 2:55 PM, David Palumbo wrote:


What is the current code requirements around the country for required 
signage for a residence/business with back-up battery storage?





  * For a home with a grid-tied PV system with back-up battery bank in
the basement.


Start with 690.53, 690.56(B),706.11(A), 690.55


  * For an off-grid home with a stand alone power system.


Start with 690.53, 690.56(A), 706.11(B), 690.55


  * For a business.

I don' t  think there is a differentiation for business v residences for 
non utility scale systems.


Chris

I am volunteering to help fire departments in northern Vermont deal 
with emergency fire response on homes and businesses that may have 
solar and other alternative power sources.


Thanks,

David Palumbo

Palumbo Consulting

462 Solar Way

Hyde Park, VT 05655



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Low voltage DC v. higher voltage DC

[cwarfel]

We just struggled through our first two OB RS Radian systems. We did not 
opt for the "package" including batteries as we and our customers 
thought it was overpriced.  We build our own battery boxes and use cost 
competitive batteries based on the customer's need.


OB needs to improve the installer experience for deciphering their 
manuals for at least the 4048.  It seems like the forgotten 
stepchildcompared to the 8048.


That being said, we did get the systems running. The Radian seems solid.

Probably most of you know I am very much opposed to NEC Rapid 
Shutdownfor reasons I have stated on this list. Modifying it, if not 
eliminating it, would not make systems less safe, and would greatly 
reduce these machinations of how to best meet this type of customer's 
needs.


Chris



On 9/13/2018 2:14 AM, Marco Mangelsdorf wrote:

The SMA Sunny Storage looks promising.

It will be able to work with the LGC RESU10 HV battery and, sooner 
rather than later I hope, BYD package as well.


And it will allow for a backup generator tie in.

Ta-dah!

marco

On Thursday, September 13, 2018, Bruce Erickson 
mailto:br...@mendocinosolar.com>> wrote:


Hi Marco,

I partially agree with you. I recently bid Outback, StorEdge, and
Pika options for a GTBB customer, partly to understand pricing for
myself, and found OB to be so much more expensive. The customer
really wanted a system that would be to be able to charge the
batteries off a generator in an outage, understandably. But the
extra thousands in cost for OB ended up being prohibitive. Add-on
rapid shutdown is a killer. So he’s opting for a nice modern high
voltage DC system, with optimizers and built-in RSD, but when
there’s an extended outage, he’ll have to hope the sun comes out
right after the storm to recharge the batteries, or he’ll end up
in the dark again, until the grid comes back. Maybe there’s a high
voltage inverter that allows generator charging, or a third-party
battery charger, that I’m not aware of. Otherwise high voltage
systems are very limited for backup, at least in winter storm
scenarios.

*Bruce Erickson*
Mendocino Solar Service
PO Box 1252
Mendocino, CA 95460
707-937-1701
707-937-1741 fax
br...@mendocinosolar.com 

/Connecting Mendocino County to Solar Since//1994/








On Sep 12, 2018, at 6:26 PM, Marco Mangelsdorf
mailto:ma...@pvthawaii.com>> wrote:

Aloha all,
At the risk of whacking at a hornet’s nest…lower voltage DC is
s 80s and 90s especially when it comes to grid-tie
applications with battery storage.
The time of OutBack and Schneider and all the others doing 48VDC
is drawing to close.  Enough already.  Thank you for your service.
The sooner the industry fully migrates to higher voltage DC
(Tesla, LG Chem, BYD and others), the better.
marco
*From:*RE-wrenches
[mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org
]*On Behalf
Of*Peter Giroux
*Sent:*Wednesday, September 12, 2018 3:03 PM
*To:*RE-wrenches
*Subject:*Re: [RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to
adding battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be
appreciated.
Ken
We have had terrific success with AC Coupling. Yes there are some
differences from Dc Coupled systems but if built properly,
customer is willing to learn how to use it and maintain it and
you put the correct relays in to shut off the string inverters if
battery voltage gets to high, great.
If you have a customer that refuses to exercise the system, not
check the batteries if they are fla's and overloads it when the
power goes down then not so cool. We have customers that power
shave with it, have had backup power for days until the power
came back on as they monitored the loads and were judicious about
use. Ray is right in the sense the customer needs to learn how to
use the system or they can royally screw it up ( yes we have had
two do this, one learned the other not ).
The Radians have been great work horses for this application,
sadly as Ray mentioned Outback has moved away from it as a
primary solution.
peter giroux
ASAE
Atlanta

- Original Message -
*From:*Ken Schaal 
*To:*RE-wrenches ;Ken
Schaal 
*Sent:*Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:11 PM
*Subject:*[RE-wrenches] Any thoughts on this approach to adding
battery backup to an existing grid tie system will be appreciated.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyhkIfS5Z-Q



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

[cwarfel]

In submitting my comments, I only could access 2017, and that's where I 
made my comments.  Does anyone have more information, or is it too late?



On 8/29/2018 10:05 PM, Ray wrote:


The link to review the first draft of the 2020 code is not working.  
Do you have just the changes for 690?  I'd really like to submit some 
comments.


Thanks,

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/28/18 7:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:

Hi all,
What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid 
shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft 
of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _*


Here is the link to a press release 
<https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review> with 
links to read the draft and input your comments:

https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review

The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and 
while it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!


Best,
Rebekah Hren

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel 
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:


I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown
and not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12
could be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even
250.  It reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I
feel that is more of a danger than array voltage that the
Firefighters are highly likely to avoid.

I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected
installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS
equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or
incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really
didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown

I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time.

I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to
change 690.12.


Chris



On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:


HI Chris;

As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry
when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches
pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source,
or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for
scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious
work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly
as 'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated
that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit
needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw
the switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array
voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid
systems could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only
apply to larger arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs
of conduit (over 10 yards) or that cover more than a certain
percentage of the total roof area.  If an array covers one face
of the garage it should be exempt, and if it covers half the
total roof, then it should have Rapid disconnect, for instance. 
We need to be sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to
cut and vent the roof without electrical hazards or not?

Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost
entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid
is barely even considered.  Just look at the lack of thought
when they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The
solar industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the
bus at every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating
for our own self interests like all the other parties involved. 
This also means that us off grid folks need to be properly
represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I
think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated
from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it
doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section.  The
emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwar...@entech-engineering.com
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:


I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and
personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone
willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like,
contact me off list.

To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and
you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or
on building" which i 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

[cwarfel]

Thanks Rebecca, This will help. Chris


On 8/28/2018 9:59 AM, Rebekah Hren wrote:

Hi all,
What you need to do now - to get your voices heard about rapid 
shutdown requirements-  is to make public comments on the first draft 
of the 2020 NEC. *_Comments are due AUGUST 30 at midnight!!! _*


Here is the link to a press release 
<https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review> with 
links to read the draft and input your comments:

https://www.necanet.org/about-us/news/news-release-archive/news/2018/07/02/nfpa-releases-2020-nec-first-draft-for-public-review

The process for changing the NEC is standardized by the NFPA and while 
it may not be perfect, it's what we've got!


Best,
Rebekah Hren

On Tue, Aug 28, 2018 at 6:50 AM cwarfel 
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:


I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and
not the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could
be reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It
reduces the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that
is more of a danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are
highly likely to avoid.

I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected
installation manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS
equipment. Two plus months and all I get are repeated vague or
incorrect information. One expert at OB said that they really
didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown

I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time.

I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to
change 690.12.


Chris



On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:


HI Chris;

As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry
when actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches
pushing for some form of disconnect closer to the power source,
or the PV array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us
small off grid folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for
scrapping all of 690.12, but I do think it needs some serious
work. /In or on the building/ needs to be defined more clearly as
'on the roof'. Ground mounts need a clearer exemption. The PV
disconnect needs to be clearly defined and also clearly stated
that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The time limit
needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to throw the
switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array voltage
should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems could
be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger
arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over
10 yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the
total roof area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it
should be exempt, and if it covers half the total roof, then it
should have Rapid disconnect, for instance.  We need to be
sensible, do the fire fighters have a good spot to cut and vent
the roof without electrical hazards or not?

Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost
entirely oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid
is barely even considered. Just look at the lack of thought when
they wrote the definitions for /DC to DC Converters/.  The solar
industry has been ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at
every turn.  I think its about time we started advocating for our
own self interests like all the other parties involved.  This
also means that us off grid folks need to be properly
represented, and off grid considered with all code changes.  I
think DC coupled PV should have its own section and be separated
from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different that it doesn't
make sense to throw them into the same section.  The emergence of
article 706 is a step in the right direction.

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwar...@entech-engineering.com
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com> wrote:


I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and
personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone
willing to join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact
me off list.

To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and
you are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or
on building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually
means. Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV
system This is a big win for installers as almost everyone
installs systems like this... Right.    They used to have a
dimension to this, but I guess that gave installers too much
information. This is a stupid Code addition for roo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

[cwarfel]

I like your solutions to this. Just sticking to rapid shutdown and not 
the fire code, I think a lot of the problems with 690.12 could be 
reduced if the maximum string voltage was 150 or even 250.  It reduces 
the ampacity on a roof for a given power and I feel that is more of a 
danger than array voltage that the Firefighters are highly likely to avoid.


I still cannot get Outback Power to provide a corrected installation 
manual or a start up procedure on the RSI/ICS equipment. Two plus months 
and all I get are repeated vague or incorrect information. One expert at 
OB said that they really didn't deal much with Rapid Shutdown


I cannot install any more Outback on roofs at this time.

I'll see if it is ok to provide a link to an online petition to change 
690.12.



Chris



On 8/27/2018 2:13 PM, Ray wrote:


HI Chris;

As with all things bureaucratic,  good intentions can go awry when 
actually implemented.  Years ago, I was one of the wrenches pushing 
for some form of disconnect closer to the power source, or the PV 
array.  I had no idea it would come back to bite us small off grid 
folks so hard, though.  I'm not quite for scrapping all of 690.12, but 
I do think it needs some serious work. /In or on the building/ needs 
to be defined more clearly as 'on the roof'.  Ground mounts need a 
clearer exemption. The PV disconnect needs to be clearly defined and 
also clearly stated that the Rapid disconnect system stops there.  The 
time limit needs to be bumped up to 90 seconds: no one is going to 
throw the switch and be hacking on the roof that fast.  The array 
voltage should be 150 vdc, so that lower voltage off grid systems 
could be exempt, and I really think 690.12 should only apply to larger 
arrays (over 10kW) that have long exposed runs of conduit (over 10 
yards) or that cover more than a certain percentage of the total roof 
area.  If an array covers one face of the garage it should be exempt, 
and if it covers half the total roof, then it should have Rapid 
disconnect, for instance.  We need to be sensible, do the fire 
fighters have a good spot to cut and vent the roof without electrical 
hazards or not?


Its interesting how article 690 has morphed from being almost entirely 
oriented towards off grid in 99 and 02, to now off grid is barely even 
considered.  Just look at the lack of thought when they wrote the 
definitions for /DC to DC Converters/. The solar industry has been 
ready and willing to be thrown under the bus at every turn.  I think 
its about time we started advocating for our own self interests like 
all the other parties involved.  This also means that us off grid 
folks need to be properly represented, and off grid considered with 
all code changes.  I think DC coupled PV should have its own section 
and be separated from AC coupled PV.  The systems are so different 
that it doesn't make sense to throw them into the same section. The 
emergence of article 706 is a step in the right direction.


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 8/23/18 5:31 PM, cwar...@entech-engineering.com wrote:


I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and 
personally.  It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone willing to 
join me in a petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list.


To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you 
are not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on 
building" which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. 
Exempted are buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This 
is a big win for installers as almost everyone installs systems like 
this...   Right.    They used to have a dimension to this, but I 
guess that gave installers too much information. This is a stupid 
Code addition for roof mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting 
Firefighters, but not doing so in reality. The NEC looks politically 
compromised by consultants and manufacturers who too advantage of 
this fear mongering. No other country with a pv industry has 
historically done this. Why are installers not up in arms about this?


This is the NEC reference.

690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits 
installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function 
to reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with 
690.12(A) through (D).


If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic" 
intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device 
disconnect switch at the array.  Any supporters of RS should chime in 
with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of 
us who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney.  
690.12 has caused more problems for multimode systems than any 
tariffs, which are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any 
more "safe design and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved 
with this issue.


Chris Warfel






On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:


Gr

Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown Again?

[cwarfel]

I think Rapid Shutdown should be scrapped professionally and personally.
 It was ill conceived and ill written.  Anyone willing to join me in a
petition to CMP 44 and the like, contact me off list.  

To your question directly, you have a ground mounted system and you are
not subject to 690.12 unless your conductors are "in or on building"
which i cannot seem to find what that actually means. Exempted are
buildings that are isolated only for the PV system This is a big win for
installers as almost everyone installs systems like this...   Right.
   They used to have a dimension to this, but I guess that gave
installers too much information. This is a stupid Code addition for roof
mounted pv systems, disguised as protecting Firefighters, but not doing
so in reality. The NEC looks politically compromised by consultants and
manufacturers who too advantage of this fear mongering. No other country
with a pv industry has historically done this. Why are installers not up
in arms about this? 

This is the NEC reference. 

690.12 Rapid Shutdown of PV Systems on Buildings. PV system circuits
installed on or in buildings shall include a rapid shutdown function to
reduce shock hazard for emergency responders in accordance with
690.12(A) through (D). 

If your system is ground mounted, you are outside the "altruistic"
intent of 690.12 of protecting Firefighters. Put a initiation device
disconnect switch at the array.  Any supporters of RS should chime in
with the support of 690.12 and add clarity and guidance to those of us
who actually install systems and have to deal with this baloney.  690.12
has caused more problems for multimode systems than any tariffs, which
are bad enough. I don' think the industry needs any more "safe design
and installation" assistance from the CMPs involved with this issue. 

Chris Warfel 

On 2018-08-23 00:31, Ray wrote:

> Greetings fellow wrenches; 
> 
> I know we have beat this many times but I once again have not been able to 
> resolve the contradictory information in 690 in regards to implementing 
> 690.12.  As Rebekah Hren pointed out before, the diagrams shown in Figure 
> 690.1(b) show that the _PV System DC Circuit_ stops at the _PV Disconnect_.  
> Note 2 says specifically the '_PV Disconnect separates the PV system from all 
> other systems_'.  But then in the definitions in 690.2 on the next page, the 
> new definition of a _P__V System DC Circuit_ says that it includes DC to DC 
> converter output circuits.  (which are Solar Edge module level controls, but 
> could be interpreted as a MPPT battery charge Controller?)  
> 
> Then 690.12 which only applies to '_PV System circuits in or on buildings_', 
> says we have to control conductors more than 3 ft after penetrating the 
> building.  
> 
> So in my case, I'm looking at a ground mount, and installing an external 
> lockable disconnect on the wall before it goes into the building.  This will 
> officially be the PV Disconnect.  In my interpretation, I should not need to 
> do any Rapid Shutdown, because I've essentially prevented the _PV system_ 
> from ever entering the building at all ( based on the 5th diagram and Note 2) 
>  However, I could see an AHJ claiming I had to do RS all the way to the 
> output side of the charge controller. 
> 
> If this were true, could I simply apply RS equipment from the PV disconnect 
> to the output of the charge controller, or am I back to module level shutdown 
> for my ground mounted array, or could I build a tiny building that just 
> housed the PV Disconnect and take the exemption for '_buildings with the sole 
> purpose of housing PV system equipment_'?  
> 
> Essentially the definitions in 690.2 are too broad, and are at odds with the 
> Figure and Notes of 690.1.  They really didn't fix this in the 2017 code for 
> us lowly off gridders. Charge controllers are covered by article 706.23 
> _Charge Control_, and NOT by 690.12 at all. IMHO, the charge controller needs 
> to be clearly defined and differentiated from DC to DC converters like Solar 
> Edge's module level DC equipment.  
> 
> I just want to go back to doing solar designs and installations, and quit 
> acting like an attorney parsing every word of this confusing code language.
> 
> -- 
> Ray Walters
> Remote Solar
> 303 505-8760
> 
> ___
> List sponsored by Redwood Alliance
> 
> List Address: RE-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
> 
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[RE-wrenches] Outback Rapid Shutdown RTB rewiring

[cwarfel]

I learned from Outback yesterday that an important step in using this RS 
initiator is not described in the directions. The prewired GFI needs to 
be removed and the conductors connected to their supplied RTB breaker 
that is supposed to be located in the same slot. The GFI function is 
inthe combiner box.


Has anyone found Outback instructions describing this?  The person I 
worked with on the phone yesterday could not find any directions to this 
effect.  Chris




On 7/25/2018 7:23 PM, Scot Arey wrote:

Yes I had also heard from Outback  that AC Coupling not supported.

Too bad because the AC coupling load center was slick setup and 
integration.


Scot

Get Outlook for Android 




On Wed, Jul 25, 2018 at 10:29 AM -0600, "Kelly Keilwitz, Whidbey Sun & 
Wind" mailto:ke...@whidbeysunwind.com>> wrote:


Larry,
I recommend considering retrofitting the SolarEdge “StorEdge”
Li-ion battery. It’s a high-voltage battery on the PV side of the
inverter. We have a few out there now for a few months without a
problem. Really like the design concept of the storage on the PV
side, increasing system efficiency.

We’ve done quite a few AC-coupled systems, which Outback FX,
Outback Radian, and SMA Sunny Island/Sunny Boy. The Outbacks
require a cutout relay. We won’t do Radian AC-coupling any more,
as the setup, documentation, and support is a royal PITA, and have
had failures in the “ROCB” automatic cutout breaker. Even when the
ROCB doesn’t fail, it often cuts out when it isn’t supposed to,
like at the start/end of a float cycle. My understanding is that
Outback doesn’t support AC-coupling any more with the Radian.

Kelly Keilwitz, P.E.
Principal
Whidbey Sun & Wind
Renewable Energy Systems
NABCEP PV Installation Professional
WA Electrical Administrator
office: 360.678.7131




On Jul 19, 2018, at 07:07, Larry Brown mailto:sunmount...@netstep.net>> wrote:

Does anyone have a recommendation on a battery based inverter to
AC Couple with a Solar Edge 11400A-US Inverter that is already
installed?
I have been working a lot with the Schneider Conergy XW+
Inverters for off grid but have no experience AC Coupling them
with a Solar Edge Inverter
Any recommendations?

Thanks
Larry

Larry Brown
Sun Mountain
845-657-8096
sunmount...@netstep.net 


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs

[cwarfel]

I have been told this by many firefighters

On 2018-07-12 16:07, Kristopher Schmid wrote:

> I had a student tell me that firefighters are often venting through the gable 
> side wall as opposed to the roof.  Can anyone confirm or deny this statement? 
> 
> Shine On!
> 
> Kris Schmid
> Legacy Solar, LLC
> 137 West 1st Avenue
> Luck, WI 54853
> www.legacysolar.com [1]
> 715-653-4295
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional
> Licensed Wisconsin Master Electrician
> BSEE 
> 
> On Tue, Jul 10, 2018 at 6:46 PM,  wrote:
> 
> NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for 
> access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18" either 
> side for a total of 36" width.
> 
> On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote: Calfire code seems to be the standard 
> being somewhat enforced as the standard nationwide.
> 
> Wayne Irwin,
> President
> License #CVC56695
> State Licensed Solar Contractor
> Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
> wa...@pureenergysolar.com
> http://PureEnergySolar.com
> http://SolarChargingStation.net [2]
> 352 377-6527 Office
> 352 336-3299 Fax
> 
> The Sun Is Always Shining!
> 
> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
> the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
> distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
> delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Daniel Young 
> SENT: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM
> TO: 'RE-wrenches'
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs 
> 
> Hey Gary, 
> 
> Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you 
> project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. 
> 
> http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 [3] 
> 
> Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict 
> in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft 
> path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 
> 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with 
> a hip roof. 
> 
> With Regards, 
> 
> Daniel Young, 
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON BEHALF OF 
> gary easton
> SENT: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs 
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am having 
> inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing 
> the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the 
> ridge.
> 
> --
> 
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> 
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
>
> T: 740-277-8498
> 
> www.arp-solar.com [4] 
> 
> "FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU. THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU. THEN THEY FIGHT YOU. THEN YOU 
> WIN."
> 
> ~Ghandi 
> 
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List sponsored

Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs

[cwarfel]

NYSERDA out of NY has reasonable amendments to the IBC for setbacks for
access and ventilation. They clarify that the hip roof valley is 18"
either side for a total of 36" width. 

On 2018-07-10 17:38, Wayne Irwin wrote:

> Calfire code seems to be the standard being somewhat enforced as the standard 
> nationwide.
> 
> Wayne Irwin,
> President
> License #CVC56695
> State Licensed Solar Contractor
> Pure Energy Solar International Inc.
> wa...@pureenergysolar.com
> http://PureEnergySolar.com
> http://SolarChargingStation.net
> 352 377-6527 Office
> 352 336-3299 Fax
> 
> The Sun Is Always Shining!
> 
> The content of this message is Pure Energy Solar Confidential. If you are not 
> the intended recipient and have received this message in error, any use or 
> distribution is prohibited. Please notify me immediately by reply e-mail and 
> delete this message from your computer system. Thank you.
> 
> -
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches  on behalf of 
> Daniel Young 
> SENT: Tuesday, July 10, 2018 5:25:01 PM
> TO: 'RE-wrenches'
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs 
> 
> Hey Gary, 
> 
> Ohio Fire Code does cover this. It's a matter of if the Fire marshal in you 
> project area wants to waive or alter the requirements. 
> 
> http://codes.ohio.gov/oac/1301:7-7-06v1 
> 
> Specifically 605.11.1.2 is for residential buildings. There is some conflict 
> in terms of Hip roofs in the code there. 605.11.1.2.2 states a single 3ft 
> path on one edge or another for a hip roof, but 605.11.1.2.4 states that an 
> 18 space is allowed when modules are mounted on two adjacent roof planes with 
> a hip roof. 
> 
> With Regards, 
> 
> Daniel Young, 
> 
> NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90 
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches  ON BEHALF OF 
> gary easton
> SENT: Monday, July 09, 2018 3:39 PM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: [RE-wrenches] Solar set backs 
> 
> Hello Wrenches,
> 
> What are you all seeing required as setbacks post 2017?  I am having 
> inspectors vary between wanting a 3' lane at the bottom and sides to allowing 
> the array down to the gutter, and from requiring between 18" and 3' at the 
> ridge.
> 
> --
> 
> Gary Easton
> Appalachian Renewable Power
> 
> Stewart, Ohio 45778
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
>
> T: 740-277-8498
> 
> www.arp-solar.com [1] 
> 
> "FIRST THEY IGNORE YOU. THEN THEY LAUGH AT YOU. THEN THEY FIGHT YOU. THEN YOU 
> WIN."
> 
> ~Ghandi 
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option?

[cwarfel]

was accomplished in NEC
2017 on this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the
common off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP Associate

970.672.4342


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:

Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12
disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro
inverter, so those should be able to meet the 2019
requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still
don't have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect
the charge controller which has capacitors that back feed
the PV line for up to 90 seconds. They have a DC GFI
breaker with remote trip capability but it takes 4
spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns into
a wiring mess really fast.

I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one
system to get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going
back to 1980s equipment to pass 2017 code. 690.12 is an
absolute nightmare for small off grid.  There really
should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW)
and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get
there till the structure is down anyway,  Response times
are up to an hour for remote locations with volunteer
fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no one
is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire.

On the flip side, there are real dangers created by
nuisance tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid
it's a mere inconvenience, but off grid it could mean
spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down heating
systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly:
loss of their breathing machines.  I've already had a 74
year old customer climbing on their roof multiple times
to reset the Rapid shutdown equipment after nuisance
trips.  Are we going to wait until we get someone killed
in the name of "Safety" before we fix this?

Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:


I am wondering about the experience installers have with
a DC coupled multimode system design that will comply
after January 1 with what I feel is the biggest
mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is
690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the
remote controlled combiner and even that won't comply
after January 1 unless we parallel more subarrays
(There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher
amperage!). Thanks for any insight.

Chris




-- 


Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
(401)466-8978

EEI logo <http://entech-engineering.com>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option?

[cwarfel]

The issue I first raised was within the array boundary. It was very 
helpful that it was clarified that battery conductors are not PV 
circuits. This still leaves the problem of dc coupled multimode 
inverters on a roof having to limit the voltage to 80 or less.  It 
really needs to be changed toat least 150vdc.  A tremendous national 
resource in dc couple potential has been written out of existence.



On 7/6/2018 4:57 PM, Rebekah Hren wrote:
I believe there was a big improvement for off-grid systems as relates 
to RS in the 2017 NEC - the diagrams in 690.1(b) all show the PV 
system disconnect clearly now.  If you check out the diagrams you can 
see that energy storage/battery circuits, including the battery-based 
inverter whether AC or DC coupled, are outside the PV system boundary, 
thus not PV system circuits, thus not subject to RS.


Also, the NEC 2020 1st draft report has been published 
<https://downloads.nfpa.org/codes-and-standards/all-codes-and-standards/list-of-codes-and-standards/detail?code=70&tab=nextedition>, 
so get your comments submitted!


Rebekah Hren
Member, NEC CMP-4

On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 2:22 PM Dan Fink <mailto:danbo...@gmail.com>> wrote:


I agree with you, Ray, as a purely off-grid solar installer and
troubleshooter. I think all that was accomplished in NEC 2017 on
this issue is that non-habitable structures, like the common
off-grid 'power shed' don't need 690.12 RS anymore.

Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
NABCEP Associate

970.672.4342


On Fri, Jul 6, 2018 at 11:32 AM, Ray mailto:r...@solarray.com>> wrote:

Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12
disconnects that wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter,
so those should be able to meet the 2019 requirements. 
However beware:  they as of yet still don't have a reasonable
disconnect system to disconnect the charge controller which
has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 90
seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip
capability but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge
controllers it turns into a wiring mess really fast.

I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to
get it to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s
equipment to pass 2017 code. 690.12 is an absolute nightmare
for small off grid. There really should be some exemptions for
small arrays (under 3 kW) and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters
are not going to get there till the structure is down anyway, 
Response times are up to an hour for remote locations with
volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at all;  no
one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire.

On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance
tripping of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere
inconvenience, but off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen
water lines, shut down heating systems in subzero
temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of their breathing
machines. I've already had a 74 year old customer climbing on
their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown
equipment after nuisance trips.  Are we going to wait until we
get someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this?

Ray Walters
    Remote Solar
303 505-8760

On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:


I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC
coupled multimode system design that will comply after
January 1 with what I feel is the biggest mistake/poorly
guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that is 690.12. We are
installing two Outback systems with the remote controlled
combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we
parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower
voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight.

Chris




-- 


Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

EEI logo <http://entech-engineering.com>


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option?

[cwarfel]

Thanks Ray, I am sure the moderator will let me know if this is off 
topic, but I would be willing to help organize a petition drive to 
repeal this part of the NEC and because there are good reasons. Not 
because it's "inconvenient". Long time manufacturers, who historically 
produced safe and high quality product(s) are being harmed by this 
language, which in turn, benefited others.  Safety is not necessarily 
increased.  I feel CMP 4 got hijacked focusing on this issue.  There has 
been good reorganization and integration of 690 with other Articles, but 
RS is not reflective of this effort. Just the labeling requirements show 
that.


There is a lot of focus on resiliency and the NEC increased the cost and 
didnot improvethe safety of DC coupled multimode systems.  So instead of 
incorporating the roof resource that could be used to meet resiliency 
goals, we are taking roofs out of some design considerations, and 
increasing the costs for the other options.


Chris


On 7/6/2018 1:32 PM, Ray wrote:


Midnite has some string level and module level 690.12 disconnects that 
wire in like an optimizer or micro inverter, so those should be able 
to meet the 2019 requirements.  However beware:  they as of yet still 
don't have a reasonable disconnect system to disconnect the charge 
controller which has capacitors that back feed the PV line for up to 
90 seconds.  They have a DC GFI breaker with remote trip capability 
but it takes 4 spaces, so with multiple charge controllers it turns 
into a wiring mess really fast.


I actually wired in some 60 amp rated diodes on one system to get it 
to pass inspection; what a joke, going back to 1980s equipment to pass 
2017 code.    690.12 is an absolute nightmare for small off grid.  
There really should be some exemptions for small arrays (under 3 kW) 
and under 100 vdc.  Fire fighters are not going to get there till the 
structure is down anyway, Response times are up to an hour for remote 
locations with volunteer fire departments.  Its not like in town at 
all;  no one is going to go on the roof on an off grid fire.


On the flip side, there are real dangers created by nuisance tripping 
of 690.12 equipment.  Again, on grid it's a mere inconvenience, but 
off grid it could mean spoiled food, frozen water lines, shut down 
heating systems in subzero temperatures, and for the elderly: loss of 
their breathing machines.  I've already had a 74 year old customer 
climbing on their roof multiple times to reset the Rapid shutdown 
equipment after nuisance trips.  Are we going to wait until we get 
someone killed in the name of "Safety" before we fix this?


Ray Walters
Remote Solar
303 505-8760
On 7/6/18 9:55 AM, cwarfel wrote:


I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled 
multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I 
feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and 
that is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote 
controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless 
we parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower 
voltage-higher amperage!). Thanks for any insight.


Chris




--

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

EEI logo <http://entech-engineering.com>


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   (401)466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Rapid Shutdown and January 1 2019 option?

[cwarfel]

I am wondering about the experience installers have with a DC coupled 
multimode system design that will comply after January 1 with what I 
feel is the biggest mistake/poorly guided part of NEC 2017 690, and that 
is 690.12. We are installing two Outback systems with the remote 
controlled combiner and even that won't comply after January 1 unless we 
parallel more subarrays (There's safety for you, lower voltage-higher 
amperage!). Thanks for any insight.


Chris




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Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks

[cwarfel]

Iam not trying to prolong this thread,but I do want to say that there 
should be an inspectionof the blocks in freeze/thaw areas. We started an 
inspection program of our systems or systems in the area and although we 
don't install ballasted systems, we found enough other things to 
address. On my own 8 year old system zip tie failure was over 50%. It 
opened my eyes to the need to do these inspections, and spec better 
materials at the start.


I remember the survey in Wisconsin regarding the inspecting of fairly 
old solar thermal systems. All the participants really seemed to love 
their systems, but I think over 3/4 of them were not working.



On 7/1/2018 8:02 PM, Jerry Shafer wrote:

Kirt, Chris, Wrenches
We have not had any issues other then one or two in Hawaii or 
California, it might be the location, concrete blocks sitting in the 
weather all exposed to rain from on all sides and then potential 
freezing conditions will cause failure of the blocks, the same issue 
pools will get if there are tiles around the edge when they pop off in 
freezing conditions but thats just me>

Jerry
NABCEP Installer and PVI


On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 10:20 AM, Kirk Herander > wrote:


All,

I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of
the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing,
some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has
anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in
the future? A coating of some sort?

*Kirk Herander*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC *

*/Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/*

*www.vermontsolarnow.com *

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks

[cwarfel]

Back to the original post. A commercial system doesn't mean they used 
paving blocks.  I have seen many that did not. Fly ash is also a product 
of coal combustion that can be used to make a stronger concrete, though 
it won't necessarily help in this case, as it is lighter.



On 6/30/2018 7:05 PM, Ken Schaal wrote:

Regular cement blocks absorb water, freeze thaw cycle destroys them.

Paving blocks are made with silica fume, denser than cement,dont 
absorb water, don't suffer freeze thaw damage. They are designed for 
 walkways and driveways.

There are cement looking pavers , 12x12 x 2" ,also made with fume.
Any block plant should be able to make balast blocks to the needed 
specs. Silica fume is a waste product of coal combustion

..ie cheap, but effective.
Ken schaal

On Jun 30, 2018 6:29 PM, "cwarfel" <mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:


I am pretty sure it is the freeze-thaw cycle that the blocks are
exposed to. I have inspected hundreds of system in the Northeast
and this is a recurringproblem. It has to be part of the
maintenance protocols or there will be insufficient weight to
resist thewind uplift forces.  Chris


On 6/30/2018 6:17 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:

Kirk,

Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system
installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow
installation of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in
2017. I'm located in Western NY, thus the same weather you see.
The blocks were on a stainless steel pan of which the array was
attached to. I've plenty of ideas as to why they broke down but
no real evidence. I expect it to happen again. Does make me
wonder about the new ballast systems that still call out for the
blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags?

Christopher

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander
mailto:vtso...@icloud.com>> wrote:

All,

I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50%
of the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and
crumbing, some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad
batch, but has anyone seen this before? What might be the
preventive remedy in the future? A coating of some sort?

*Kirk Herander*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC *

*/Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/*

*www.vermontsolarnow.com <http://www.vermontsolarnow.com>*

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202


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Re: [RE-wrenches] crumbling ballast blocks

[cwarfel]

I am pretty sure it is the freeze-thaw cycle that the blocks are exposed 
to. I have inspected hundreds of system in the Northeast and this is a 
recurringproblem. It has to be part of the maintenance protocols or 
there will be insufficient weight to resist thewind uplift forces.  Chris



On 6/30/2018 6:17 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:

Kirk,

Had the same thing happen to me on a commercial ballasted system 
installed back in 2004. Had to be moved around to allow installation 
of a new roof system. Replaced all the ballast in 2017. I'm located in 
Western NY, thus the same weather you see. The blocks were on a 
stainless steel pan of which the array was attached to. I've plenty of 
ideas as to why they broke down but no real evidence. I expect it to 
happen again. Does make me wonder about the new ballast systems that 
still call out for the blocks as ballast. Perhaps poly sand bags?


Christopher

On Wed, Jun 27, 2018 at 4:20 PM, Kirk Herander > wrote:


All,

I have a 6 year old ballasted roof system in which about 50% of
the solid cap blocks(16”L x 8”w x 4”D) are cracked and crumbing,
some are close to rubble. I assume it was a bad batch, but has
anyone seen this before? What might be the preventive remedy in
the future? A coating of some sort?

*Kirk Herander*

*Owner|Principal, VT Solar, LLC *

*/Celebrating our 27^th Anniversary 1991-2018/*

*www.vermontsolarnow.com *

dba Vermont Solar Engineering

NABCEP^TM 2003 Inaugural Certificant

VT RE Incentive Program Partner

802.863.1202


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ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


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   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Enphase tech support

[cwarfel]

Nick Soleil, Can you please email me?  I hav been emailing (3 times) 
Enphase about a mistake  I believe in the IQ6 manual, and I have not 
received any response. The issue centers around what takes the inverter 
off line. It says phase to phase, but our recent experience is phase to 
neutral. The local utility's transformer's secondary winding was 
begining to fail. It blew the OCPD. The utility replaced the fuse, 
measured only phase to phase and thought everything was back in working 
order. We measured phase to neutral and let them know of the problem. 
According to what I can find, the IQ6 should have still operated onthe 
phase to phase voltage it was seeing, but all 26 IQ6s went of line.


Thank you, Chris


On 6/14/2018 1:28 PM, Chris Schaefer wrote:

Roy,

Nick Soleil is on the wrenches list and is employed by Enphase.

Christopher Schaefer

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 2:58 PM, MDElectricSolar 
mailto:mdelectricso...@gmail.com>> wrote:


707-763-4784

On Wed, Jun 13, 2018 at 10:29 AM Roy Butler
mailto:r...@four-winds-energy.com>> wrote:

Does anyone have contact information for Enphase Tech Support?

Thanks in advance!

-- 
Roy Butler

Four Winds Renewable Energy, LLC
8902 Route 46, Arkport, NY 14807
607-324-9747 www.four-winds-energy.com


Check out the Annual Small Wind Conference
A Gathering of Installers, Manufacturers, Dealers, & Distributors
www.smallwindconference.com 

Although no trees were killed in the sending of this message,
a large number of electrons were terribly inconvenienced.




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ch...@solarandwindfx.com /


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails?

[cwarfel]

Thanks Bill, I am not worried about the rail warranty. My focus is to 
provide roof access for maintenance or firefighters, so that is why we 
extend the rail. The shingles can take a beating during any maintenance 
procedure and the extended rails provide a place to put one's feet 
without slipping.  These are RS compliant multimode systems, (dc). I 
could have thought this out differently, but the other options would 
have cantilevered the rail and I did not feel comfortable doing that. Chris



On 6/11/2018 11:13 PM, frenergy wrote:


Many times when we get close to the end of a 'rail run', mounting PVs, 
when the rail's end is still far enough away from the second or third 
from the last PV, we will measure exactly where the outside edge of 
the last PV will land.  We then undo 1 or 2 of the bolts attached to 
feet, pull the rail away from the roof a few inches and cut it there 
with a 6" cordless 'skilsaw' (clean cut and very little vibration 
using carbide blade) . Because we use PLP P8 rail (formerly DPW) we 
re-bolt rail to feet and secure the very last PV's  edge with their 
back of frame flange clamp, P/N P8-ECU.  All this ends up either flush 
with or inside the end of the rail/PV edge.


            Does painting new or anodized aluminum qualify for the 
tail-light warranty?


Bill

Feather River Solar Electric
Bill Battagin, Owner
4291 Nelson St.
Taylorsville, CA 95983
530.284.7849
CA Lic 874049
www.frenergy.net
On 6/11/2018 10:08 AM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large 
repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I 
strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the 
customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would 
refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for 
hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good.


How much rail is really exposed anyway?  We use Unirac's pro style end 
clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes 
with black rails and clamps.


Jason


On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel 
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:


A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of 
the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match 
the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle 
color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask).  Has anyone 
any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails?

[cwarfel]

Thanks Jason. Ihave been involved with educating firefighters on solar 
as part of my work and access is always an issue. So, I tell the 
customer that we are going to extend the rails past the array with an 
attachment so that we can access the roof and so can others. They did 
not remember that. It has an RS combiner on the roofwith a switch. The 
roof pitch is 12/12 with a badly graded front that precluded a boom lift 
getting to the west part. The roof was about 45' above the ground. We 
worked with harnesses and needed the extra rail to work safely and not 
destroy the shingles.


I may try to screw an aluminum laminateto it. Will experiment first. I 
do think they will get used to it, but the rails are about 8" past the 
array do we could hit a rafter and not cantilever the rail. Design wind 
speed is now 140mph here.   Chris



On 6/11/2018 1:08 PM, Jason Szumlanski wrote:
We have been painting mill finish aluminum flashings for one large 
repeat customer, and I can tell you that it doesn't look great. I 
strongly question the long-term efficacy of this practice. But the 
customer is always right... so we do it despite our protests. I would 
refuse for a one-off job. I only do it because we have a contract for 
hundreds of homes and my bargaining position is not good.


How much rail is really exposed anyway?  We use Unirac's pro style end 
clamps the rails don't really stick out much anyway. Or use BoB panes 
with black rails and clamps.


Jason


On Mon, Jun 11, 2018 at 11:10 AM cwarfel 
<mailto:cwar...@entech-engineering.com>> wrote:


A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts
of the anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely
match the shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the
shingle color was going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). 
Has anyone any experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris


-- 


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   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Painting anodized rails?

[cwarfel]

A customer has asked that I look into painting the exposed parts of the 
anodized rails on their roof mounted system to more closely match the 
shingles. (New construction, we did not know what the shingle color was 
going to be, and I have to say, I did not ask). Has anyone any 
experience with this?  Thank you for any help. Chris



--

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Small system lithium or equivalent battery technology

[cwarfel]

I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load off-grid system by 
first focusing on the battery technology.  The Li based battery 
"packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, which is too 
large for this application. Can you recommend a manufacturer of Li 
batteries that can be used in an off grid application that had safe 
battery charging capabilities as part of its product line. Currently, 2 
Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine battery, is limited 
in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any info/help.  Chris

--

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Ilsco Insulated Tap Connectors

[cwarfel]

Hello Wrenches, I am trying to redesign a couple hundred watt load 
off-grid system by first focusing on the battery technology. The Li 
based battery "packages" I am aware of are essentially for a residence, 
which is too large for this application. Can you recommend a 
manufacturer of Li batteries that can be used in an off grid application 
that had safe battery charging capabilities as part of its product 
line.  Currently, 2 Trojan L16s are being used, which, while is a fine 
battery, is limited in its depth of discharge.  Thanks for any 
info/help.  Chris


--

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Array Pictures from Hawaii or Caribbean

[cwarfel]

I am putting together information for a pv class in the Caribbean, and I 
am looking for pictures of projects that show the project and the 
typical roofing materials. I live in the Northeast, and all we've really 
done are either cedar shingle or asphalt. If you have pictures that you 
would be willing to share, I would appreciate it. I will give your 
company credit in the presentation.  Would you please contact me off line?


Thank you, Chris


--

 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

[cwarfel]

It's just not Idaho. I was just asked about NEC PV interpretation for a 
large city on the East coast. Same problem. Narrowly (and incorrectly) 
interpreting the grounding requirements.


It's probably nervous inspectors who feel their neck is on the line, and 
are interpreting defensively thinking that is the safest thing for them 
to do. We have taught a lot of Code officials and they really feel 
exposed when it comes to PV.


The key to me is just taking time, if the Building Official has it, to 
go over the NEC sections and their relevance. It has to be made 
understandable and easy. These people are suppose to approve everything 
from house wiring to appliances to pools, to anything that requires a 
permit. It is just too much for almost everyone to understand 
completely. Look at all the questions we have with 690 and 705 alone

Chris.


On 4/20/2018 1:28 PM, Dana wrote:


Reasonable inspector, here? You have no idea.

The plans examiner is the first link in the process here in Idaho, he 
is; by the book, crossing t’s & dotting I’s and has a very strict & 
narrow interpretation of the code. That said he is very helpful and a 
nice guy. It’s an Idaho thing.




Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.

*C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com*

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136 www.solarwork.biz <http://www.solarwork.biz>

_"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988" ___

*P*Please consider the environment before printing this email.

*From:*RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *cwarfel

*Sent:* Friday, April 20, 2018 9:23 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read 
a few of these. I hope this is not redundant.


6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations. 
By that I mean that it is not protected.  If you are running the array 
EGC exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of 
the overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array 
disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122.


We have run into the conductor covering rating problem too. #4 can be 
color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector 
should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not 
holding up as well to sunlight as black.  I think NEC2017 takes this 
into consideration and allows you to color code because of the 
superior performance of black coverings.


Chris

On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote:

That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it 
dates to early grounding with grid tie systems.

I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was 
the size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was .



Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.

C - 208.721.7003d...@solarwork.com <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz <http://www.solarwork.biz>

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

P  Please consider the environment before printing this email.

-Original Message-

From: RE-wrenches
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>  On Behalf Of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar

Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM

To: RE-wrenches
<mailto:re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org>

Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

  Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I 
have had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I 
have had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them 
do what they are doing to you so thanks for the info  Be well!  --Dave

The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array

mounted combiner box.




Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.

C - 208.721.7003d...@solarwork.com <mailto:d...@solarwork.com>

Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374

NABCEP # 051112-136www.solarwork.biz <http://www.solarwork.biz>

"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"

 Please consider the environment before printing this email.

-Original Message-

From: RE-wrenches
<mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org>  On

Behalf Of Hilton Di

Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

[cwarfel]

I just got back from being out of the office for a week+ and just read a 
few ofthese. I hope this is not redundant.


6AWG is the size that meets several tests for exposed installations.By 
that I mean that it is not protected.  If you arerunning the array EGC 
exposed, you would use at least 6AWG depending upon the size of the 
overcurrent protection device towards the charge controller/array 
disconnect. 250.120(C) and T250.122.


We have run into the conductor covering rating problemtoo. #4 can be 
color coded so you can use black conductor. A reasonable inspector 
should allow this for 6 since a lot of the non black coverings are not 
holding up as well to sunlight as black.  I think NEC2017 takes this 
into consideration and allows you to color code because of the superior 
performance of black coverings.


Chris


On 4/20/2018 9:00 AM, Dana wrote:

That makes two of us that would like to understand, why #6? I think it dates to 
early grounding with grid tie systems.
I remember back to 20+ years ago when the code required that the EGC was the 
size of the largest conductor which with 24 volt inverters was .


Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.biz
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
 Please consider the environment before printing this email.


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On Behalf Of Dave 
Angelini Offgrid Solar
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:57 PM
To: RE-wrenches 
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

  Dana, I understand the need to use #6 in exposed places on the earth. I have 
had inspectors require the same wire size that is used to the battery. I have 
had them require the same size as the array wiring. I have never seen them do 
what they are doing to you so thanks for the info  Be well!  --Dave

The bare #8 is an EGC for #10 USE PV wire on the tracker to the array
mounted combiner box.


Dana Orzel  Great Solar Works, Inc.
C - 208.721.7003   d...@solarwork.com
Idaho Contractor - # 028765 Idaho PV # 028374
NABCEP # 051112-136   www.solarwork.biz
"Responsible Technologies for Responsible People since 1988"
 Please consider the environment before printing this email.


-Original Message-
From: RE-wrenches  On
Behalf Of Hilton Dier
Sent: Thursday, April 19, 2018 3:39 PM
To: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
Subject: [RE-wrenches] Looking for insulated #6 bare standoff

Would #8 meet code? I thought that exposed ground wire had to be #6
minimum.

Hilton Dier III
Renewable Energy Design
Missisquoi River Hydro LLC
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Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060

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--

 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Clearance clarification please

[cwarfel]

You may want to look at NY's exceptions to the IFC for access and 
ventilation for roof mounted arrays (residential).  As was said earlier, 
there is very little on ground mounted arrays except for the 10' brush 
clearance rule.



On 4/4/2018 11:47 AM, August Goers wrote:

Hi All in California -

New intervening codes in California are on their way effective July 1, 
2018:


  * 
https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IRC-070118.pdf


  * 
https://cdn-web.iccsafe.org/wp-content/uploads/errata_central/2016CA-IFC-070118.pdf



It's a long story, but the IRC applies to R3 (single family and 
duplex) buildings and allows for 18" ridge clearance. The IFC is 
intended to follow the same 18" clearance but mistakenly the 36" smoke 
ventilation language was not removed. Apparently this was an 
administrative error that is supposed to be corrected.



August


*August Goers*

www.luminalt.com 


On Tue, Apr 3, 2018 at 10:36 PM, William Miller 
mailto:will...@millersolar.com>> wrote:


Darryl:

If you are talking about California, I must respectfully
disagree.  If you are not talking about California, I am ignorant.

California Fire Code, 2016 version, states the following for group
R-3 buildings (which I am fairly certain includes single family
homes).  This includes provisions for pitched roofs.  Upon first
reading, I do not see any improvements over the previous version
(2012) except that it appears clearance from valleys has reduced
from 36” to 18”.

These regulations are implemented by local fire Marshalls in
California (sometimes the same person as the Chief, sometimes
not).  This gives the Marshalls complete discretion.  I have had
good luck negotiating with Marshalls and finding good compromises.

Excerpt from 2016 California fire code.

/605.11.1.1 Roof access points. Roof access points/

/shall be located in areas that do not require the placement/

/of ground ladders over openings such as windows/

/or doors, and located at strong points of building construction/

/in locations where the access point does not/

/conflict with overhead obstructions such as tree limbs,/

/wires or signs./

//

/605.11.1.2 Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3/

/buildings. Solar photovoltaic systems for Group R-3/

/buildings shall comply with Sections 605.11.1.2.1/

/through 605.11.1.2.5./

/Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/

/structures designed and constructed in accordance/

/with the California Residential Code./

/605.11.1.2.1 Size of solar photovoltaic array. Each/

/photovoltaic array shall be limited to 150 feet (45/

/720 mm) by 150 feet (45 720 mm). Multiple arrays/

/shall be separated by a 3-foot-wide (914 mm) clear/

/access pathway./

/605.11.1.2.2 Hip roof layouts. Panels and modules/

/installed on Group R-3 buildings with hip roof layouts/

/shall be located in a manner that provides a 3-/

/foot-wide (914 mm) clear access pathway from the/

/eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/

/and modules are located. The access pathway shall/

/be at a location on the building capable of supporting/

/the fire fighters accessing the roof./

/Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/

/roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/

/horizontal (2:12) or less./

/605.11.1.2.3 Single-ridge roofs. Panels and modules/

/installed on Group R-3 buildings with a single/

/ridge shall be located in a manner that provides two,/

/3-foot-wide (914 mm) access pathways from the/

/eave to the ridge on each roof slope where panels/

/and modules are located./

/Exception: This requirement shall not apply to/

/roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/

/horizontal (2:12) or less./

/605.11.1.2.4 Roofs with hips and valleys. Panels/

/and modules installed on Group R-3 buildings with/

/roof hips and valleys shall not be located closer than/

/18 inches (457 mm) to a hip or a valley where panels//

/modules are to be placed on both sides of a hip or/

/valley. Where panels are to be located on only one/

/side of a hip or valley that is of equal length, the/

/panels shall be permitted to be placed directly adjacent/

/to the hip or valley./

/Exception: These requirements shall not apply to/

/roofs with slopes of two units vertical in 12 units/

/horizontal (2:12) or less./

/605.11.1.2.5 Allowance for smoke ventilation/

/operations. Panels and modules installed on Group/

/R-3 buildings shall be located not less than 3 feet/

/(914 mm) from the ridge//in order to allo

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

Ah,off grid. I see. That makes sense. I wouldn't use it place of solar, 
but we have used it as part of one. Obviously we have a tank in that 
application. We have a very good propane sales person herewho has sold a 
lot of on demand radiant and hydronic.It's almost twice thecost per BTU 
v oil, but they have done very well on low maintenance claims.



On 3/20/2018 1:58 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

Chris,

For Offgrid with minerals in the well water, getting the right flow, the
maintenance that is just not there with a tank heater. Tankless are great
for many but if you do add an open loop solar water panel, you need a
tank Just not worth it in places like the south west where there is
abundant sunshine. Offgrid in remote places where service is questionable
or unavailable, we go with the most reliable. I steer them that way for
other reasons also..

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes
what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks,
Chris


On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating
water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on
extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient
are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for
about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know
all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be
a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper
involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but
think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake

wrote:
Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
air
to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
could
keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

Drake


At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us


Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just
help
recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the
breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not
an
all-electric
off-grid building.)

The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by
with
a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the
situation.

Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
though it may be worth consideration.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
plumbing
is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
think we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
   boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I cam

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

What are the issues with tankless water heaters?  I have heard them 
described as having "issues", but I haven't read anything that describes 
what they are.  They are very popular where I live.  Any info? Thanks, Chris



On 3/20/2018 1:07 PM, Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar wrote:

And a big maybe for Offgrid where we like multiple ways to
charge/heat/cool and make hot water. The default method is almost always
the most reliable. For a typical home a 50 gallon propane tank water
heater with a zinc change every 7 years is the norm.

An air to water heat pump, an open loop solar water panel or closed loop
if conditions warrant it are great secondary methods. To me heating water
with electricity does not work because of winter and is a last thing to
add.A tankless and their issues are near the end of the list. Ground
source heat pumps are even lower to me with very nice prices on extremely
efficient mini split air source pumps.

I always try and minimize generators but if you need them then it allows
one to have more options.

Dave Angelini Offgrid Solar
"we go where powerlines don't"
http://members.sti.net/offgridsolar/
e-mail  offgridso...@sti.net
text 209 813 0060


Maybe. I designed my own house to incorporate this. The most efficient are
the vertical type, and at 6' the company advertised 20% recovery for about
$1,300 if I remember correctly. This I'm sure is for a new copper pipe,
and
anyone who's ever taken apart a sewer pipe after a few years will know all
pipes get a bacterial mat of a couple mm thick. I suspect this might be a
pretty good insulator. At any rate there is a whole lot of copper involved
and associated inherent environmental challenges. I can't help but think
for the house design challenge to accommodate such a long perfectly
vertical pipe and expense another kW or more of solar would offset more
energy.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:50 AM, Drake

wrote:
Daniel,

That sounds like an intriguing technology, much along the lines of an
air
to air heat exchanger. Thanks for the recommendation.  These systems
could
keep a lot of CO2 out of the atmosphere if widely used.

Drake


At 10:09 AM 3/19/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
  boundary="=_NextPart_000_0077_01D3BF6A.5EF88420"
Content-Language: en-us


Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units?
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just help
recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.

My understanding is that economically they are barely past the breakeven
point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV costs as the
benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this is off grid,
then
I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is not an
all-electric
off-grid building.)

The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by with
a
smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the same task,
OR
you can get much longer showers from the same sized unit. Depending on
the
clients goals, this might be a useful tool to bring into the situation.

Here are two brand names that I know of.
Vertical mount: renewability
Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just
though it may be worth consideration.

With Regards,

Daniel Young,
NABCEP Certified PV Installation ProfessionalTM: Cert #031508-90

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On
Behalf Of *Drake
*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
plumbing
is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely solution. I
think we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
  boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =Â  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per
person
per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =Â  167lbs/day/person

cp =Â  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume =
.86)Â  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day

convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120
kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They
approached it another way with assuming run times.

https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=
Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=
electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.
33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.
0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..
0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

I had thought of this a long time ago for an island project, but the 
cost of plumbing cold inlet water past the heat exchanger was too high. 
I think this can work at time of construction or easy renovation. We do 
this for large thermal dump loads for fabric mills for example.



On 3/19/2018 10:09 AM, Daniel Young wrote:


Drake,

Have you or the client looked into the drainwater heat recovery units? 
They make both a vertical and horizontal mounted version. They just 
help recover the waste heat from shower water going down the drain.


My understanding is that economically they are barely past the 
breakeven point when considering offsetting grid power. If using PV 
costs as the benchmark, the economics would be better. If somehow this 
is off grid, then I’d say it’s a home run. (Hopefully though this is 
not an all-electric off-grid building.)


The main benefit, as far as I understand it, is that you can get by 
with a smaller unit, with a smaller heating element to perform the 
same task, OR you can get much longer showers from the same sized 
unit. Depending on the clients goals, this might be a useful tool to 
bring into the situation.


Here are two brand names that I know of.

Vertical mount: renewability

Horizontal mount: ecodrain

I have not used these products, so I cannot endorse any of them, just 
though it may be worth consideration.


With Regards,

Daniel Young,

NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional^TM : Cert #031508-90

*From:* RE-wrenches  *On 
Behalf Of *Drake

*Sent:* Thursday, March 15, 2018 1:00 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches 
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the 
plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a likely 
solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy.


Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per
person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person

cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll
assume = .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day

convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120
kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per
month. They approached it another way with assuming run times.


https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI



Chris




On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:

Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground
water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it
up to shower temp. Â My recollection is that ASHRAE states
20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd
thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly with consumers,
from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3
showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to
19% of the total household energy load for the year.  Also, I
would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you
have significant humidity or an on demand unit.  Water tanks
are typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby
losses.
Â
Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Spirit Solar Inc.
(413) 734-1456
Â
Â
Â
*From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
Â
You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a
delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow
2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find
a calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to
raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh,
add some contingency and you should be good.Â

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018,
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be
consumed for electric water per person per day? We 

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

That would be a good analysis to share. I can see how it could be 
possible with lower module costs, but I haven't seen any studies on this 
comparison. Chris



On 3/15/2018 1:17 PM, Darryl Thayer wrote:
When I did my study of solar water heating I found that PV water 
heating gave more hot water at a lower cost than solar thermal.  the 
Heatpump water heater was the big winner.


On Thu, Mar 15, 2018 at 12:00 PM, Drake 
> wrote:


This discussion has been a great help. The house is built and the
plumbing is in, but could be modified. Wood stoves are not a
likely solution. I think we need a different water heating strategy.

Thank you all!

Drake



At 09:21 AM 3/15/2018, you wrote:

Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary="EE4E9806B711DEF636076840"
Content-Language: en-US

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m =  mass flow rate. ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per
person per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person

cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll
assume = .86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day

convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120
kWh/month

I checked this against one month and it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per
month. They approached it another way with assuming run times.


https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI





Chris




On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:

Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground
water temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up
to shower temp. Â My recollection is that ASHRAE states
20gal/person/day for the first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd
thereafter.  However those rates vary wildly with consumers,
from those that never bathe to the high schooler that needs 3
showers a day.  In the northeast water heating can be up to 19%
of the total household energy load for the year.  Also, I would
recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you have
significant humidity or an on demand unit.  Water tanks are
typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.
Â
Mike Kocsmiersky
Principal
Spirit Solar Inc.
(413) 734-1456 
Â
Â
Â
*From:* Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person
Â
You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a
delta to 100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow
2.5gpm and showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a
calculator online to calculate how many Btus are required to
raise water temp for your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add
some contingency and you should be good.Â

On Wednesday, March 14, 2018,
mailto:drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org>> wrote:
Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed
for electric water per person per day? We are estimating the
amount of power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and
the water heater amount seems high. The current model we have
claims 3493 kWh/ year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With
the two units, that would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot
water, pushing the system size to humongous for a 1300 ft sq
building.

Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit.

The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon
tanks. I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem
that the amount of hot water consumed would be the main issue.

How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for
electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome.

Thank you,

Drake



-- 
--Â

Barton Churchill
406.587.5295  Â
2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715
www.solarips.com 
Im

Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

[cwarfel]

This is what I came up with:

The calculation is Q = mcp delta T

Water Temp out =  120

Water Temp in = ground source Temperature @ 50F?

delta T = 70F

m = mass flow rate.  ASHRAE is the source for this. 20gals per person 
per day = 20 gallons x 8.34 lbs/gallon =  167lbs/day/person


cp =  1 BTU/lb-degree F

Q = 167 x 1 x 70 = 11,676 BTU/day/person

Divide this by the efficiency of the water heating system (I'll assume = 
.86)  =11,676/.86 = 13, 577 BTU/person/day


convert to kWh if necessarym 13,577/3412 = ~4 kWh/person/day, 120 kWh/month

I checked this against one monthand it seems reasonable.

Website assuming ~3.5 family size comes up with @ 400kWh per month. They 
approached it another way with assuming run times.


https://www.google.com/search?safe=active&source=hp&ei=Z3KqWvXiNsGb5wKJ2Kf4DA&q=electric+water+heater+use+annual+consumption&oq=electric+water+heater+use+annually&gs_l=psy-ab.1.2.33i22i29i30k1l3.279.9222.0.12475.35.19.0.7.7.0.451.2360.0j6j4j0j1.11.00...1c.1.64.psy-ab..18.16.1952.0..0j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i22i30k1.0.CiU8wYZigpI


Chris




On 3/15/2018 8:09 AM, Mike Kocsmiersky wrote:


Barton makes a good point with regards to the incoming ground water 
temperature and the amount of heat required to bring it up to shower 
temp.  My recollection is that ASHRAE states 20gal/person/day for the 
first 2 people, then 15gpd or 12gpd thereafter.  However those rates 
vary wildly with consumers, from those that never bathe to the high 
schooler that needs 3 showers a day.  In the northeast water heating 
can be up to 19% of the total household energy load for the year.  
Also, I would recommend the air source heat pump water heaters if you 
have significant humidity or an on demand unit. Water tanks are 
typically under insulated and can lose 2kWh/day in standby losses.


Mike Kocsmiersky

Principal

Spirit Solar Inc.

(413) 734-1456

*From:*Barton Churchill [mailto:bar...@solarips.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, March 14, 2018 7:31 PM
*To:* RE-wrenches
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Electric Water kWh/ person

You first need to know your ground temperature. Then figure a delta to 
100 or so degrees. Most but not all showerheads flow 2.5gpm and 
showers are typically 10 minutes. You can then find a calculator 
online to calculate how many Btus are required to raise water temp for 
your delta per gallon. Convert to kWh, add some contingency and you 
should be good.


On Wednesday, March 14, 2018, > wrote:


Hello Wrenches,

Is there a good way to estimate the power that will be consumed for 
electric water per person per day? We are estimating the amount of 
power that will be used by an all electric duplex, and the water 
heater amount seems high. The current model we have claims 3493 kWh/ 
year per 26 gallon tank will be consumed. With the two units, that 
would add up to 6986 kWh / year for hot water, pushing the system size 
to humongous for a 1300 ft sq building.


Does that seem high? There will be a maximum of 2 people per unit.

The owner is considering going to 115 V units with a 15 gallon tanks. 
I think the smaller tank would help, but it would seem that the amount 
of hot water consumed would be the main issue.


How can we get a good estimate for a per person energy usage for 
electric hot water? Any other suggestions are welcome.


Thank you,

Drake



--

--

Barton Churchill
406.587.5295
2430 North 7th Bozeman, MT 59715
www.solarips.com 

Image removed by sender.



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 Christopher Warfel, PE
   ENTECH Engineering, Inc.
PO Box 871, Block Island, RI 02807
   (401)466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters

[cwarfel]

I am pretty sure if you look a the TJI specifications for holes and
notching you have just about zero options when it comes to using them to
resist an array's uplift. Blocking is about the only option unless you
use the attachment method that secures each module to the roof's plywood
sheathing. Chris

On 2018-03-02 23:53, Glenn Burt wrote:

> We have had to install blocking between TJI beams and anchor to them. 
> Piercing the top member was a no-no. 
> 
> _Glenn_ 
> _Sent from my 'smart' phone so please excuse spelling and typographical 
> errors._ 
> 
> -- Original message-- 
> FROM: frenergy 
> DATE: Fri, Mar 2, 2018 9:18 PM 
> TO: re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org; 
> CC: 
> SUBJECT:Re: [RE-wrenches] TJI rafters 
> 
> Jerry, 
> 
> Metal roof? comp? tile? 
> 
> Bill 
> On 3/2/2018 1:23 PM, Jerry Caldwell wrote: 
> 
>> Dear Wrenches, 
>> 
>> I have a customer with a low slope roof supported by TJI beams. Does anyone 
>> have experience permitting and installing on TJIs? I'm curious if 
>> jurisdictions are requiring Structural Engineer stamps. 
>> 
>> Since the top chord of the beams is only 1 3/8" thick should we be using 
>> shorter lag bolts for these installations? It also seems that it would be 
>> undesirable to penetrate into the web of the beam. 
>> 
>> Any advice would be appreciated here. 
>> 
>> Thank you, 
>> 
>> Jerry Caldwell 
>> 
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> 
> -- 
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> Bill Battagin, Owner
> 4291 Nelson St.
> Taylorsville, CA 95983
> 530.284.7849
> CA Lic 874049
> www.frenergy.net [3]
> 
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Concorde Lifeline Battery failures

[cwarfel]

We stopped installing them when they would not honor a warranty issue. 
We felt thattheir warranty was not commensurate with the risk we and our 
customer's faced.



On 1/19/2018 11:59 AM, Starlight Solar Power Systems wrote:

Drake,

We have at least a dozen systems that failed early from lost capacity over the 
last 2 years with 2-4 year old battery banks. The AGM failures are all Lifeline 
battery made by Concorde.

Lifeline and my distributor both told me I was “the only one” with failures. I 
dropped Lifeline battery after being a dealer for 16 years and many hundreds of 
systems installed. Historically we had seen 7-10 years average life from 
battery banks that we installed. One regular customer is at 12 years and still 
going. I have a sense of vindication now hearing from others about Concorde 
capacity issues.

Thank you,

Larry Crutcher
Starlight Solar Power Systems
(928) 342-9103





On Jan 18, 2018, at 9:18 AM, Drake  wrote:

A Concorde AGM PVX 3050T recently failed in a bank of 8. Larry mentioned a 
couple of brands experiencing problems. These batteries are 4 years old and 
have been kept in float in an off grid system, never stressed. Hopefully 
Concorde batteries are not going the way of Trojan L-16s. Has anyone else had 
problems with Concorde?


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Schneider 600volt Charge Controller

[cwarfel]

We have had two in the field for two years with noproblems.  They 
allowed us to run 375feet with conductors that was substantially smaller 
than what would have otherwise been possible. Chris



On 1/18/2018 12:34 PM, Mac Lewis wrote:
I'll vouch for Schneider's 600A charge controller as well.  We don't 
have as many as Dave has out there but no failures.  Seems to be a 
solid device.  Works well with the PDP too.


Good Luck!

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 10:15 AM, Howie Michaelson 
mailto:howie.michael...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Boy, that would be a bonus! I like sticking with products that
have worked for me, although I am intrigued by the XW 600vDC.

Any word on the release date for Midnite's inverter?

On Thu, Jan 18, 2018 at 11:51 AM, mailto:penobscotso...@midmaine.com>> wrote:

FYI Howie,
   Schneider engineers are actively working on a communication
solutions
between the Schneider Xanbus and Midnite controllers. I've
been talking
to an engineer working on it who says it should be ready very
soon. It
will also work with the combox for remote monitoring.

Daryl


> Hi All,
> Anyone have feedback/review of the 600 volt Schneider Charge
Controller
> that they'd care to share?  I have an existing Conext XW+
off-grid system
> with combox communication setup which currently has about
1.5 kW of solar
> feeding through 2 MX60s (no hub). We'll be adding about 5kW
(on a TPM
> about
> 150' away) and I'm trying to decide if overall it would be
better to use
> the Schneider 600v (which I haven't used before, although I
have serviced
> the 150v XW with no real complaints). Typically I would use
a Classic200,
> but given the ability to integrate with the XW6848 and
communicate through
> the Combox for more offsite visibility, I'm considering the
Schneider, but
> only if it's not going to provide me with the benefit of
added service
> calls.
> TIA!
> Howie
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*

"Yo solo sé que no sé nada." -Sócrates

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water Heating Systems

[cwarfel]

I thinkthis problem is really only "solved" by using the coverings 
suggested, especially it seems, aluminum jacketing.  I will be going off 
island in a week and I will have the chance to go to a store that sells 
these products. I am hoping to put this system into HomePower, so, this 
will be part of the article. Thanks for everyone's responses. I 
hopefully responded to everyone off line. Stay tuned.  Chris



On 11/6/2017 4:57 PM, solar1onl...@charter.net wrote:
Hi Chris, Your question certainly generated a number of responses. 
While the field applied covering I mentioned certainly peeled off and 
had the consistency of latex paint, I did _not_ perform an analysis. 
There is outdoor latex paint which should have UV inhibitors, so 
perhaps it really was latex. The original owner is gone, so no help 
there but a paint manufacturer may be able to verify latex paint as an 
inexpensive _and effective_ covering solution. What made this solution 
stand out in my mind so well was the flex roof flashings, which when 
unprotected become brittle (and useless) oftentimes before the ten 
year mark. This painted flashing was just as flexible as a new unit 
and as you are well aware, replacing a solar flashing is way more 
involved than a plumbing flashing. I am aware of many manufacturers 
that rebrand/repackage a common item as a solution for a very specific 
problem and charge an outlandish premium for the common item in a 
shiny package (sometimes not even a shiny package). Bill


-----

From: "cwarfel"
To:
Cc:
Sent: 06-Nov-2017 13:01:11 +
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar 
Water Heating Systems


Hi Bill, thanks. I did not think latex would hold up anywhere near 
that long.  Chris



On 11/4/2017 9:13 AM, solar1onl...@charter.net wrote:

Chris,

The fitted covers certainly provide a more finished appearance. One of
my customers painted the insulation (w/o fitted covers) with latex
paint and after 30+ years the insulation was still quite flexible. My
take away was simply that eliminating the sun (UV) effects paid off
big time. As I remember they used white paint.

Best wishes,

Bill Loesch
Solar 1 - Saint Louis Solar
314 631 1094

-From: "Glenn Burt"
To: "RE-wrenches"
Cc:
Sent: 04-Nov-2017 00:21:14 +
Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar
Water Heating Systems

  How about the white PVC jacketing? You can buy fitted elbow covers
and other fitted parts as well. Probably paintable in any color to
blend into location.

  List-Archive:
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Christopher Warfel, PE
Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978


--
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Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Outdoor rated insulation covering for Solar Water Heating Systems

[cwarfel]

I would like to add a covering to the Armorflex insulation we installed 
on a solar water heating system. Can anyone recommend a manufacturer's 
product that a reasonably competent person can install?  Right now we 
have wrapped the insulation in UV resistant tape, but it doesn't look 
all that great.  Thank you, Chris


--
Christopher Warfel, PE
Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Panelboards in Series - Bus Ratings

[cwarfel]

There may be two tests here.

1)I think you can use 705.12(D)(2)(3)(c)

The sum of the ampere ratings of all overcurrent devices on panelboards, 
both load and supply devices, excluding
the rating of the overcurrent device protecting the busbar, shall not 
exceed the ampacity of the busbar. The rating of the
overcurrent device protecting the busbar shall not exceed the rating of 
the busbar. Permanent warning labels shall be applied

to distribution equipment that displays the following or equivalent wording:
WARNING:
THIS EQUIPMENT FED BY MULTIPLE SOURCES.
TOTAL RATING OF ALL OVERCURRENT DEVICES,
EXCLUDING MAIN SUPPLY OVERCURRENT DEVICE,
SHALL NOT EXCEED AMPACITY OF BUSBAR.

The warning sign(s) or label (s) shall comply with 110.21(B).


2) I think though, that you also need to check the busbar rating of 
panel that is supplying power to this inverter combiner panel so that 
125% of the inverters' output from the combiner panel plus the main 
breaker on the supplying panel  does not exceed the busbar rating of the 
supplying panel.


Chris


On 10/17/2017 5:36 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote:

*Scenario*

- 600A *dedicated PV* subpanel w/ (6) 100A circuit breakers, each
feeding a 60kW inverter (72.2A rated output)
- Subpanel is fused at 600A and connects to a larger main
distribution/combiner panel along with other similarly configured subpanels

*Question*

- Must the main panelboard be sized based on the combined total of OCPDs
protecting the subpanels, e.g. 600A + 600A + 600A + 600A = 2400A main panel
rating?
- Or can the main panelboard be sized based on the combined total of
inverter output ratings feeding the panel, e.g. 433.2A + 433.2A + 433.2A +
433.2A = 1732.8A main panel rating?

--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA
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Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hurricanes and Wind-loading !

[cwarfel]

I am wondering if this will change the perspective of Florida utilities, 
regulators, and property owners with respect to distributed generation 
and resiliency.  The stories of people coming back to structures with no 
power and Florida's hot weather is not helping people function in the 
climate.  I realize ac is not a first thought option, but there are 
other cooling options.


Assuming the array is intact, it makes sense to use battery technology 
instead of having a high dependency on generators that rely on fuel that 
may not be available. Past experience shows that roofs with arrays or 
collectors fare better than those without, all things being equal. The 
racking system ties the roofing frame together so it acts more as a 
monolithic structure thanwithout. This increases the ability to resist 
uplift and downward forces. Any data would be appreciated.


Chris


On 9/12/2017 10:14 PM, Tom Lane wrote:
Windloading MAPS of Florida depend on how close you are to the coast 
and ground mounted versus say on top of a high rise near the beach and 
how close you are to the wind zones . The one factor you cannot get 
away with is directing clipping panels to metal roofs . You must use a 
rail that holds all the panels to the rails instead of the simple 
metal roof clips . The one important feature to control wind loads is 
to use three rails on two end modules on each end of an array AND 1/2 
set extra of mounting hardware on ALL two end modules . On a raise 
array on a flat roof you should X brace the last three on each end . 
Always stay 3 feet minimum away from hips , gable ends , valleys , 
eves and ridges . Use 3/8 "SS attachments instead of 5/16 " and always 
hit or attach to trusses and tie all trusses together with a five 
pattern ( like on dice 🎲) instead of a four pattern which skips every 
other truss . However any Hurricanes  over 175 MPH moving slow will 
take everything out to the slab  , but if correctly installed, then 
when the homeowner finds parts of their home the panels will  be 
holding that part of the roof in one piece. GatorTom



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Re: [RE-wrenches] Trench Wiring - Ampacity Derating

[cwarfel]

I think the factors you have to consider include:

- the number of conductors in the trench,

-are they in a jacketed cable,

-are they separate conductors,

-are they considered "closely bundled",

-what is the distance of the conductor system once it exits the ground 
before entering a conditioned space, and will it be in conduit.


Chris


On 8/5/2017 5:36 PM, Corey Shalanski wrote:
How should we treat direct burial wires in a trench for ampacity 
derating purposes?

- Should they be considered "in a raceway or cable"? [NEC 310.15(B)(3)(a)]
- If it is determined that "spacing" must be maintained, what minimum 
spacing is acceptable/permissible?


I would be interested to hear what means and methods others have used 
to deal with this issue.


--
Corey Shalanski
Joule Energy
New Orleans, LA


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[RE-wrenches] 72 Cell Black Frame Modules?

[cwarfel]

I have been unable to find a ~340 watt all black module for a project in 
which we will also be using all black 285 watt modules. An architect is 
involved and for good reason would like the frames to be consistent. 
Does anyone know of a manufacturer of all black ~340 modules?  Please 
contact me off line if you can assist. Thank you, Chris


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?

[cwarfel]

The problem installers are having is the interpretation by two different
entities: 1) the AHJ, and 2) the program compliance inspector.   

They don't always have the same interpretation and the installer gets
caught in the middle.  

The installer does not want to antagonize either. 

>From what I gather in this thread, waterproof wire twist connectors, of
which I believe seem to be the most "waterproof", but not the best
assured long-term connector will meet the program compliance inspector's
needs, but not be the best from most of what I read from the installers.
Most installers prefer the multi-port connectors. 

I will be contacting the program compliance inspectors and see if they
will take another look at this problem. 

Thanks for everyone's input.  Chris 

On 2017-04-11 10:13, August Goers wrote:

> As a related note, the 2014 NEC has an addition that allows field-installed 
> drainage holes in junction boxes: 
> 
> We've found that installing drain or weep holes is a very good idea to keep 
> water from accumulating in outdoor boxes and conduit bodies. 
> 
> August 
> 
> FROM: August Goers [mailto:aug...@luminalt.com] 
> SENT: Tuesday, April 11, 2017 6:46 AM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: RE: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? 
> 
> Hi Chris, 
> 
> I've contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors 
> to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response 
> was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved 
> outdoor boxes. I'll forward the email to you off list. 
> 
> That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor 
> wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential 
> fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. 
> 
> August 
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] ON 
> BEHALF OF cwar...@entech-engineering.com
> SENT: Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? 
> 
> I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all 
> of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside 
> JBs.   Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight.  Chris
> 
> On 2017-04-10 15:48, e...@harvesthesun.com wrote: 
> 
> Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I 
> will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten 
> their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type 
> connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what 
> he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are 
> not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they 
> recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm 
> going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! 
> 
> Eric Stikes 
> 
> SunHarvest 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?
> From: "William Miller" 
> Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> 
> Wrenches: 
> 
> I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads?  We all know 
> splices are a weak link.  
> 
> We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be 
> it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of 
> which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer.  
> 
> If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be 
> necessary.
> 
> If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our 
> web site or contact me off list.  
> 
> William 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt  wrote: 
> 
> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals 
> specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. 
> Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions 
> would be a NEC violation. 
> 
> -
> 
> FROM: Drake
> SENT: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10
> TO: RE-wrenches
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? 
> 
> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: 
> 
> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to 
> wire nuts due to this same problem. 
> 
> Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The 
> spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type 
> connection does not. 
> 
> When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the 
> screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they 
> are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial 
> installation of the equipment. 
> 
> On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all 
> screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of 
> the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of 
>

Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?

[cwarfel]

Thank you, I appreciate the information. I will check this out and send
it along to the inspecting company.  Chris

On 2017-04-11 09:46, August Goers wrote:

> Hi Chris, 
> 
> I've contacted Ideal about the suitability for their copper crimp connectors 
> to be used in outdoor locations in approved junction boxes. Their response 
> was that they are listed to UL 486C and are designed to be used in approved 
> outdoor boxes. I'll forward the email to you off list. 
> 
> That said, they do not have the dielectric silicone grease that an outdoor 
> wire nut has and if a J-box fills with water then there could be a potential 
> fault between adjacent conductors or to ground. 
> 
> August 
> 
> FROM: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] ON 
> BEHALF OF cwar...@entech-engineering.com
> SENT: Monday, April 10, 2017 4:45 PM
> TO: RE-wrenches 
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? 
> 
> I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs), that all 
> of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be used in outside 
> JBs.   Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any insight.  Chris
> 
> On 2017-04-10 15:48, e...@harvesthesun.com wrote: 
> 
> Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I 
> will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten 
> their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type 
> connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what 
> he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are 
> not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they 
> recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm 
> going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! 
> 
> Eric Stikes 
> 
> SunHarvest 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?
> From: "William Miller" 
> Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> 
> Wrenches: 
> 
> I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads?  We all know 
> splices are a weak link.  
> 
> We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be 
> it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of 
> which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer.  
> 
> If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be 
> necessary.
> 
> If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our 
> web site or contact me off list.  
> 
> William 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt  wrote: 
> 
> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals 
> specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. 
> Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions 
> would be a NEC violation. 
> 
> -
> 
> FROM: Drake
> SENT: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10
> TO: RE-wrenches
> SUBJECT: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad? 
> 
> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote: 
> 
> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to 
> wire nuts due to this same problem. 
> 
> Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The 
> spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type 
> connection does not. 
> 
> When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the 
> screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they 
> are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial 
> installation of the equipment. 
> 
> On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all 
> screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of 
> the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of 
> being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the 
> metal. 
> 
> With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, 
> as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on 
> each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is 
> crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one 
> specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out 
> door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> _Athens Electric LLC_
> _OH License 44810_
> _CO License 3773_
> _NABCEP Certified Solar PV _
> _740-448-7328_
> http://athens-electric.com/ [1]
> 
> [2] 
> 
> Virus-free. www.avast.com [3]

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?

[cwarfel]

I haven't seen a reply regarding the NEC requirement (by some AHJs),
that all of these connectors, except waterproof connectors cannot be
used in outside JBs.   Has anyone else run into this? Thanks for any
insight.  Chris

On 2017-04-10 15:48, e...@harvesthesun.com wrote:

> Good discussion here. I will not rule out loose connections entirely but I 
> will say that our installers know that can be an issue and really tighten 
> their connections. I like William's suggestion of fabricating an MC-type 
> connector at the PV Wire to THWN transition. At least I presume that's what 
> he's suggesting. Indeed we've moved away from the screw-type Polaris and are 
> not interested in the old-fashioned wire nut. We're 100% Sunpower and they 
> recommend the Buchannon's so that's what we're installing today. However, I'm 
> going to investigate the Miller method. William has never led me astray! 
> 
> Eric Stikes 
> SunHarvest 
> 
> - Original Message - 
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?
> From: "William Miller" 
> Date: 4/8/17 2:48 pm
> To: "RE-wrenches" 
> 
> Wrenches: 
> 
> I am wondering why the proliferation of splices in PV leads?  We all know 
> splices are a weak link.  
> 
> We allow only one connection between a module and the feeder destination-- be 
> it a combiner, inverter or optimizer-- and it is an MC connector, one side of 
> which is factory-made and provided by the module manufacturer.  
> 
> If one plans and pulls PV circuits with forethought, splices should not be 
> necessary.
> 
> If anyone wants to know more about how this can be accomplished, look at our 
> web site or contact me off list.  
> 
> William 
> 
> On Apr 8, 2017, at 10:05 AM, Glenn Burt  wrote:
> 
> It is also worth noting that many of the SMA installation manuals 
> specifically say do not use wire nuts on DC wiring. 
> Of course choosing to ignore the manufacturers installation instructions 
> would be a NEC violation. 
> 
> -
> From: Drake
> Sent: ‎4/‎8/‎2017 12:10
> To: RE-wrenches
> Subject: Re: [RE-wrenches] Polaris gone bad?
> 
> At 01:35 PM 4/6/2017, you wrote:
> Recently we interfaced with another solar install firm that has gone back to 
> wire nuts due to this same problem. 
> 
> Wire nuts have the advantage of holding the wires tight with a spring. The 
> spring follows the cold flow of the copper over the years. A screw type 
> connection does not. 
> 
> When I service an old breaker box, usually the wires are loose under the 
> screw connections, especially on the neutral and grounding bars. Often they 
> are very loose, and I bet that the screws were tight after the initial 
> installation of the equipment. 
> 
> On old industrial control equipment, I've learned the hard way to tighten all 
> screws before doing anything in the box, as wires are prone to fall out of 
> the loose screw connections. Again, these connections have the weakness of 
> being held by terminal screws, with no spring to follow the cold flow of the 
> metal. 
> 
> With wire nuts, it can be a bit tricky to know if you have a good connection, 
> as the connection is hidden under the plastic cap. It is good to pull hard on 
> each wire separately to be sure it is securely under the spring. It is 
> crucial never to mix copper and aluminum under a wire nut unless it is one 
> specifically designed for the purpose. Unless specifically listed, all out 
> door wire nuts should be in a weather proof box, and preferably taped. 
> 
> Drake Chamberlin
> Athens Electric LLC
> OH License 44810
> CO License 3773
> NABCEP Certified Solar PV 
> 740-448-7328
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Re: [RE-wrenches] Onsite label maker

[cwarfel]

I have been using the DuroPro label printer. We print the labels in the 
office and take them to the site.  Good flexibility with minimal waste. 
Thesoftware is clunky, but you can definitely get thelabel you want. 
Good technical support.  We have been printing in white lettering on red 
background, which really works for most inspectors and label requirements.


Chris


On 4/7/2017 11:53 AM, Benn Kilburn wrote:

Wrenches,
What are you using for an onsite label maker, as opposed to labels you 
have pre made or ordered?

I'm in the market for a new one.

I've been using a Brady IDxpert ( 
https://www.bradyid.com/en-us/products/printers-barcode-scanners-and-laminators/portable-printers-and-accessories/idxpert-labeling-printer-and-accessories ) 
that has been discontinued  however the cartridges are still available.


Some things I didn't like about this one was
-- that the small screen display made it impossible to oversee the 
entire label before printing it, so it was difficult to know if, for 
example, your numbers were lining up on different lines...meaning if 
you were listing voltages and currents, each on its own line, then it 
was difficult to get the numbers to line up (if you care about a neat 
looking label, which I do)
--it creates a lot of waste material like unprinted label material 
before and after the printed portion. The cartridges are not cheap so 
that doesn't help.
--it is not very user-friendly until you are quite familiar with 
it...to get the font sizes right, bold/regular font, and the above 
mentioned issue with lining things up. This again, creates a lot of 
wasted label material.


Cheers,

Benn Kilburn
SkyFire Energy Inc.
780-906-7807


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Re: [RE-wrenches] Sunny Island no Longer Supports TLs - How about New Series?

[cwarfel]

I realize this is a technical listserv, but it is interesting to compare 
the US practices with Europe's in this area. When one looks at the 
genesis of Rapid Shutdown, and how already it is changing with the most 
recent NECs, I see the solutions not helpful from an owner's, 
installers, and minimally from a firefighter's perspective.


What would really help firefighters is if the System Directoryincluded 
the current information AND system type: MicroInverter/AC Module, String 
w/oRPS, String w/ RPS, and Bimodal.  It would provide firefighters with 
information on their level of exposure, far better than what exists 
today. We are adding this information to our directories.


Chris

On 3/26/2017 3:05 PM, b...@midnitesolar.com wrote:




Battery based rapid shut down is not simple. Much of it is up to the 
AHJ. You can shut down the AC output or the battery or both. Shunt 
trip battery breakers do not cost much more than regular battery 
breakers. You do need to control them though. That is what the 
Birdhouse and MNbattery disconnect module was designed to do. Yes, 
generators can also be shut down with the Birdhouse.


You may be able to use the upcoming Little SOB [Shut Off Box]  soon 
just to shut down the PV array for battery based systems. The cost is 
very minimal, but you will still have to deal with PV input capacitor 
discharge times. Maybe 2 Little SOB’s, one on each end? They are very 
inexpensive. I do not mean to sound like a sales pitch here, but it 
seems like we are the only people working on solutions that fit these 
needs, so you need to know about them. MidNite has about the only 
solution at present for battery based shut down. You have all said it 
costs too much and is too complicated. We have listened.


Robin Gudgel

*MidNite solar*



On 3/26/2017 12:00 PM, Ray wrote:


First, its the added cost of the disconnecting combiner, RT breakers, 
control boards, Main initiator, and extra labor for wiring and 
testing.  I'd say it ads another $2 to $3K of cost.  Not a big deal 
on large systems but for a smaller off grid project in the $10K 
range, its a huge increase in cost. Folks are just going to go DIY 
with junk off the internet, and the code is now under the bus.


We've successfully argued that 690.12 only applies to the PV array 
circuit, not the inverter and battery output.  Which has at least 
kept refrigerators and heating system on during a trip. However, 
because charge controllers hold residual voltage in capacitors after 
the array is disconnected, we have had to add RT breakers at the 
charge controllers to comply with the 30 v in 10 sec rule.


My main issue is safety: if the system trips, the customer must go 
onto the roof to manually reset the combiner box to restore power. 
IMO, we have inadvertently traded customer safety in the name of fire 
fighter safety, not a fair bargain at all.  There are numerous 
nuisance faults that require reset, (CAT 5 loose connection or 
induced noise, faulty 9 v battery, naughty neighbor) Firefighters 
will probably only ever be on site to strap our poor customer to a 
back board after they fall off the roof in the snow trying to reset 
their new 690.12 compliant system.


R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760
On 3/26/17 9:22 AM, Dan Fink wrote:
Hello Ray -- Can you elaborate on why these battery-based projects 
are getting killed here locally? Is it the misinterpretation by AHJs 
that 690.12 has to disconnect the inverter from the battery bank 
with giant shunt-trip breakers? If that were the case...backup 
generators would have to be controlled by rapid shutdown too, and I 
don't think that can of worms has been opened yet.


Dan Fink
Professor of Solar Energy Technology, Ecotech Institute
IREC Certified Instructor™ for:
~ PV Installation Professional
~ Small Wind Installer
Executive Director, Buckville Energy
NABCEP Registered Continuing Education Providers™
970.672.4342 


On Sat, Mar 25, 2017 at 8:04 PM, Ray > wrote:


Not to muddy the waters, but how does the SMA system deal with
690.12 Rapid Shutdown requirements in OG and GTB arrangements? 
690.12 has been killing battery based projects left and right

here in Colorado.

Thanks,

R. Ray Walters
Chief Technical Officer, RemoteSolar.com
BS Mech Engineering, 1988
Former NABCEP Certified, 2004-2016
Licensed Master ELectrician, Colorado
303 505-8760 

On 3/25/17 6:46 PM, Jeff Clearwater wrote:

Hi Howie,

So Jay found this from previous posts (below).  So apparently
the -40 series will work in Off-grid mode (as long as you
program the SBs separately to be in OG) but won't do the
switching of modes necessary for grid-tie backup.  I plan on a
call to SMA tech support Monday morning to get to the bottom of
what exactly is lost without the RS485 comm.  And

Re: [RE-wrenches] OutBack FX Internal Fan Failure

[cwarfel]

I have had to replace two in six years. Pretty simpleto do. Takes about 
30 to 45 minutes depending upon your level of arthritis.  Chris



On 3/27/2017 10:57 AM, Wallace Stahle wrote:

Dan,
 That is an Outback stock item called FX/GS fan kit I believe. Cost 
about 2$20 with additional SS replacement screws included for either 
inverter.


I just changed one on an early model FX2524.  Pretty simple change. 
They recommend doing it while it is on its back instead of on the wall 
and that does help the reassembly quite a bit.


Good luck,

Wallace Stahle
Future Electric Energy Co
P O Box 236
Willits, CA 95490
fut...@pacific.net 
CA Lic.# C10-762093
707-459-0474



On Mar 27, 2017, at 7:35 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


Fellow Wrenches,
I have an OutBack FX inverter (manufactured in 2011) with a flashing 
Red LED. The MATE warns "Internal Fan Failure Detected" .
Before I call OutBack support I'd like to gain a little knowledge 
from you folks.
·Will I be asked to send the inverter in, or can I get the internal 
fan sent out to me so I can repair it myself?

·I used to perform internal power board swaps myself 10 or 12 yrs ago.
·It's not on warranty so I'd be paying for the parts.
Thanks for your time,
Dave
David Palumbo
Independent Power LLC
462 Solar Way Drive
Hyde Park, VT 05655
802-371-8678 cell
802-888-4917 home
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Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] Insurance Companies

[cwarfel]

I researched the WRENCHES listerv and saw this was a topic @7 years 
ago.  Does anyone know of companies that offer insurance to the solar 
electric/solar thermal installation industry.  Please contact me off 
line if this is not a topic for general listserv discussion.   Thank 
you, Chris



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Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure

[cwarfel]

Thanks Dave, This is all helpful. We do90% battery systems, and I need 
to emphasize periodic maintenance. This will help. Chris



On 1/21/2017 10:52 AM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


Hi Chris,

I don't have any pictures myself, the Backwoods email included a photo 
of a corroded bolt and a clean assembly which I've snipped and attached.


Off the Wrenches list I have had a conversation with another wrench 
who shared his successful methods which I will share here.


<< The issue I remember from before on this thread was do you put the 
material between the lug and post or outside of it?


And I’m not sure from the article if it was put on between or outside?

Personally I’ve done between and  never had a problem. Yes I’ve seen 
corrosion around the lug, but take the lug off and its clean.   
Outside seals the corrosion in, inside prevents it from forming IMO.


However, if the bolt got lose, it would generate heat, which would 
melt out any and all material, creating oxidation, more heat and away 
you go to failure mode.


Also the photo doesn’t show split/lock washer.  I think its really 
important as the lead does flow over time, so no matter how tight you 
make it,  it will loosen up over time especially with higher 
currents/heat.


The lock washer will buy you some time before needing to retorque the 
fasteners.


 I’m curious about the damage mode to the inverter and all that.  I 
don’t understand how a short on the battery would destroy all the 
electronics?


I’ve gone to a battery angle grinder with flappy wheel to prep the 
terminal posts. - fast. >>


My response to him.

I wondered about the failure of those big expensive components too, 
but I have never had a dead short for more than a split second at the 
batteries (a few misplaced cables when working too quickly are easily 
dealt with). I have been installing a catastrophic class T fuse 
between the battery bank and the DC distribution center breaker also.


I would always buff the cable ends with a green scrubbie and file the 
battery terminals to remove any corrosion and then lightly coat all 
surfaces,  including all the hardware thoroughly (incldng lock 
washer), with petroleum jelly before assembling and tightening (very 
tight - tight as I could without breaking the hardware, lead starts to 
compress). I've been very happy with doing it this way for 30+ years. 
Learned much of this from Peter Talmage and Rob Wills here back east 
as well as from Richard Perez (RIP).


 Dave

*From:*RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] 
*On Behalf Of *cwarfel

*Sent:* Saturday, January 21, 2017 9:54 AM
*To:* re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org
*Subject:* Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic 
battery system failure


Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared?  Chris

On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:

Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received
today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE
techs not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a
reminder for those of us with years of storage battery experience.

I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied
below my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues.

·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but
also for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well:
#1) Use an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a
similar moderate temperature. #2)  Use your fingers to check
temperatures. I'm practiced at this second method because
inexpensive IR thermometers were not available when I began to
care for storage batteries. I simply use my bare fingers (with a
light coating of petroleum jelly) to wiggle test each battery
cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are sensitive enough to
gauge proper temperature. I have easily found several warm or hot
connection points over the years caused by loose or corroded
hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you water
the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective measures
(tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and
reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual
connection is identified.

·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any
"anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been
discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of
us have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is
one brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while
still allowing some visual inspection.

from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17.  << This past summer Backwoods had a
visit from one of our retired co-workers, x.  While it is
always good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his
dropping by were less than ideal.

A

Re: [RE-wrenches] Hidden corrosion caused catastrophic battery system failure

[cwarfel]

Hi David, do you have any pictures of this that could be shared?  Chris


On 1/20/2017 12:52 PM, Dave Palumbo wrote:


Following is an entry from a Backwoods Solar email that I received 
today. I would like to share this as a teachable point for RE techs 
not familiar enough with proper battery bank care and as a reminder 
for those of us with years of storage battery experience.


I have underlined the two issues in the Backwoods email copied below 
my bullet points to highlight the teachable issues.


·Checking wiring connections: Check not only for tightness but also 
for temperature. There are two simple methods that work well: #1) Use 
an IR Thermometer to ensure all connections are of a similar moderate 
temperature. #2)  Use your fingers to check temperatures. I'm 
practiced at this second method because inexpensive IR thermometers 
were not available when I began to care for storage batteries. I 
simply use my bare fingers (with a light coating of petroleum jelly) 
to wiggle test each battery cable at the battery terminal. Fingers are 
sensitive enough to gauge proper temperature. I have easily found 
several warm or hot connection points over the years caused by loose 
or corroded hardware. Do this as preventive maintenance every time you 
water the batteries or bi-monthly with sealed cells. Corrective 
measures (tightening, or taking apart and cleaning, or replacing, and 
reinstalling) are taken immediately when a warmer than usual 
connection is identified.


·It is not recommended by most veteran wrenches to use any 
"anti-corrosion paste" on the terminal connections. This has been 
discussed a few times over the years on the Wrenches list. Most of us 
have found that a thin coating of petroleum jelly (Vaseline is one 
brand) does the best job of protecting against corrosion while still 
allowing some visual inspection.


from Backwoods Solar 1/20/17.  << This past summer Backwoods had a 
visit from one of our retired co-workers, x.  While it is always 
good to have friends visit, the circumstances for his dropping by were 
less than ideal.


A small, catastrophic failure had led to the loss of a battery bank, 
two inverters, and a voltage converter.  Ultimately, the failure was 
traced back to a single nut and bolt in the battery bank cable 
connections, that had developed hidden corrosion over time. Corrosion 
causes resistance to the flow of electricity, which in turn generates 
heat.  With enough corrosion, and enough current flow, the amount of 
heat generated can be sufficient to melt battery terminal connections; 
which is exactly what happened in x’s case.  The melted metal 
flowed between the negative and positive terminals of his industrial 
battery, causing a high power short that was beyond the capabilities 
of any of the circuit protection, resulting in the damage to the 
equipment.


Now keep in mind, x is one of the more detail-oriented people 
we’ve had here at Backwoods.  The discipline of a military background, 
along with critical thinking of an engineer, were still not enough to 
overlook one very tiny detail.  x does his mechanical maintenance 
on a routine schedule; _checking for tightness in wiring connections_, 
cleaning accumulated spray off battery tops, cleaning out dust and 
spider webs, _and keeping his battery terminal posts coated with 
anti-corrosion paste._  This is not the type of person you’d expect to 
see such a failure.


So what happened?  It all boiled down to the battery terminal 
connections.  What x had NOT done, was dissembled the nut and 
bolts from the battery terminals and cables to check for internal, 
hidden corrosion.  It had been about 6 years since he had done that 
level of inspection.  When previously reviewed, the hardware had been 
thoroughly inspected, cleaned, and re-assembled, and then coated with 
_anti-corrosion paste on the exterior_.  In one of the 16 nut/bolt 
pairs, a small bit of contamination or moisture must have been left 
trapped inside.  Over the course of the next six years, the corrosion 
grew, contaminating the entire connection; but was NOT visible 
externally at all! >>


Best regards,

Dave

David Palumbo

Independent Power LLC

462 Solar Way Drive

Hyde Park, VT 05655

802-371-8678 cell

802-888-4917 home



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Entech Engineering, Inc.
401-466-8978

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[RE-wrenches] NABCEP Stamp

[cwarfel]

I cannot speak for NABCEP either, but if I understand the intent of the building official, he or she is seeking a level of assurance of the design submittal. I think that would be a misapplication of the concept of NABCEP.  NABCEP allows those who have passed the exams to use the NABCEP logo in various ways. But it is not used to certify anything other than that the holder has passed an exam that tests core competencies necessary to correctly install the technology. It is not a substitute for a PE stamp, and obviously even a PE stamp is no guarantee of a flawless design.
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